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Author Topic: Episcopalians elect first female leader  (Read 10861 times) Average Rating: 0
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pensateomnia
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« on: June 19, 2006, 09:34:48 AM »

Episcopalians elect first female leader

In a historic decision that may lead to a schism with traditionalists, the Episcopal Church on Sunday elected the first woman to lead a national church in the worldwide Anglican communion.

Nevada Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori, 52, who was born in Pensacola, was elected to a nine-year term as presiding bishop and chief pastor of the deeply divided denomination.

She is part of the church's liberal majority and in 2003 favored the deeply controversial ordination of New Hampshire Bishop Gene Robinson, the first openly gay Episcopal bishop. She also supports church blessings for same-sex unions.

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060619/NEWS01/606190318/1006

26th Presiding Bishop elected by House of Bishops

[Episcopal News Service] Katharine Jefferts Schori, bishop of the Diocese of Nevada, has been elected June 18 by the House of Bishops as the 26th Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church. The House of Deputies is discussing a resolution to confirm the election, as is required by church canons. ENS will post more information after that vote.

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/3577_76109_ENG_HTM.htm

BACKROOM POLITICS GOT WOMAN BISHOP ELECTED PRESIDING BISHOP

By David W. Virtue

COLUMBUS, OH: (6/19/2006)--The election of Nevada Bishop Katharine Schori to the post of Presiding Bishop was engineered by Los Angeles Bishop J. Jon Bruno, when Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold reneged on "significant funding" he promised Bruno in his lawsuit against St. James, Newport Beach to retake the parish.

St. James and four other parishes had fled The Episcopal Church over the national church's rejection of the authority of Scripture and the moral decline of the church reflected in the consecration of New Hampshire Bishop V. Gene Robinson.

VirtueOnline was told that Schori was brokered in by a cabal of West Coast bishops, liberal bishops who hated Griswold, and a number of conservative bishops who wanted to make it clear to the Anglican Communion that the Episcopal Church was hell bent and would never repent or do a U-turn away from its revisionist agenda. They wanted to make it crystal clear where the church was heading, and a vote for Schori would do it.

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=4287
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2006, 10:10:54 AM »

Actually, this may result in some of the disaffected members coming into the Orthodox community. I do not know whether this is good or bad.
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2006, 10:16:34 AM »

I think it is more likely that they will probably move to the more conservative branches of the Anglican Church in America.  In any event, I think they are headed towards their own schism.

I actually read an article about this in my paper (en route to the office) and they mentioned the RCC and OC as being "more traditional" in not ordaining women.
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2006, 10:26:49 AM »

You've got to feel for these people.
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2006, 10:41:17 AM »

I think it is more likely that they will probably move to the more conservative branches of the Anglican Church in America.ÂÂ  In any event, I think they are headed towards their own schism.

I actually read an article about this in my paper (en route to the office) and they mentioned the RCC and OC as being "more traditional" in not ordaining women.

Who knows? Maybe some will go to the Continuing Anglicans, but I imagine others will come to the Orthodox churches.

The particularly difficult bit about this election is that it will likely produce especially divisive confusion, since this newly elected Bishop stands for three distinct controversial issues in the world-wide Anglican communion: (a) ordination of women to the episcopacy; (b) ordination of active and openly practicing gay people to the episcopacy; (c) ecclesial blessing of same-sex unions.

Some Episcopalians/Anglicans may only oppose one or two of those things, but they will be forced to oppose all of them -- or at least painted in broad strokes.

Schism seems almost imminent...although I thought the same thing when Gene Robinson was elected.

-----

Which reminds me of a joke I heard from a priest up in New Hampshire:

Q: Why can't Episcopalians win at chess?
A: Because they can't tell the difference between a Queen and a Bishop.
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2006, 11:25:13 AM »

Quote
A: Because they can't tell the difference between a Queen and a Bishop.

Man, Keble is going to be on your butt in about 3 minutes! Watch out!  I actually am curious what he will say if he chooses to comment.

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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2006, 11:29:57 AM »

Man, Keble is going to be on your butt in about 3 minutes! Watch out!

It's just a joke. (Is he a defender of Gene Robinson's appointment?)

I actually am curious what he will say if he chooses to comment.

I am too. I would hope he comments on the actual news.
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2006, 11:34:25 AM »

Man, Keble is going to be on your butt in about 3 minutes! Watch out!ÂÂ


Not to be rude, but....

Given that one of the divisive issues in the Episcopal church is the homosexual issue, including the openly gay bishop in New Hampshire...

couldn't you have had a different choice of words for your prediction of Keble's reaction?ÂÂ  Cheesy
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2006, 11:45:08 AM »

 Shocked Shocked Shocked  Now, that was funny!!!  Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2006, 11:48:49 AM »

Not to be rude, but....

couldn't you have had a different choice of words for your prediction of Keble's reaction?  Cheesy

Seems your quotation, chris, will preserve this choice of words, perhaps beyond admin's editing...teehee  Cheesy
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2006, 12:44:54 PM »

Well, I'm off to Harvard Div in a few minutes. I wonder what kind of celebrations might be going on over at the Div school or in Cambridge in general. Update when I get back.

(I think I'll drive by Episcopal Divinity School as well)
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2006, 02:09:20 PM »

Who knows? Maybe some will go to the Continuing Anglicans, but I imagine others will come to the Orthodox churches.


Rather an interesting comment from the following weblog:

http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2006/06/woman_scientist.html

Quote
Although I have no problem with gays being accepted totally in the Episcopal church, having consecrated one as a bishop is ignoring the Anglican communion's sensibilities and said to the world, "In your face." The first Episcopal bishop in Massachusetts hadn't even graduated from a seminary (despite having passed her canonicals) which was another "in your face" item and now the PB as a woman is the same thing. Membership in the Episcopal church USA has been decreasing of late and this movement will be another nail in the coffin of its connexion with the Anglican Communion. Most likely it will mark the schism feared. This is not the church I joined, and I plan to join the Greek Orthodox. This is the final step of telling the Anglican Communion to go fly a kite.


(bold parts were added by me)

So, some are thinking of this. If anyone leaves the Episcopal Church, I think they are much more likely to swim the Tiber or become Lutheran than to swim the Dardanelles.

Hopefully, though, those that do come to us do so not because they are angry but because they feel this is the right place for them.
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2006, 02:27:00 PM »

Well, on the same page I read the article about the female Bishop, there was a very interesting article about Presbyterians. http://www.bergen.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjcxN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXkyJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2OTUwNDk1

My favorite line...

Quote
Another bill that could prompt intense debate would encourage gender-neutral worship language for the divine Trinity -- for instance "Mother, Child and Womb" -- alongside the traditional "Father, Son and Holy Spirit."
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2006, 02:34:43 PM »

So, some are thinking of this. If anyone leaves the Episcopal Church, I think they are much more likely to swim the Tiber or become Lutheran than to swim the Dardanelles.

The Episcopal Church, by this action, is showing the Anglican world that they march to their own drum.  I personally think more, if they choose to leave, would turn to Rome, since Rome does allow for an Anglican Rite.  I did read, that this may be the straw to break the camel's back.  Some are saying enough talk and more action.  I wonder in ecumenical services will the Orthodox refuse to take part if the new presiding bishop attends.
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2006, 04:39:14 PM »

Keble was not for the G. Robin. consecration but did not believe a schism would result as many here predicted.

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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2006, 07:51:28 PM »

Hopefully, though, those that do come to us do so not because they are angry but because they feel this is the right place for them.

This is a good point to be made, we really have no place for a bunch of disenfranchised protestants. If they want to abandon their customs and truly convert to the Orthodox Church, great. But if they're going to insist on keeping their protestant ways, mindset, and/or other baggage, Rome is more than welcome to them.

The Episcopal Church, by this action, is showing the Anglican world that they march to their own drum.ÂÂ  I personally think more, if they choose to leave, would turn to Rome, since Rome does allow for an Anglican Rite.ÂÂ  I did read, that this may be the straw to break the camel's back.ÂÂ  Some are saying enough talk and more action.ÂÂ  I wonder in ecumenical services will the Orthodox refuse to take part if the new presiding bishop attends.

Once women are ordained priests, the progression to Bishop and eventually Primate is a logical one. Most people who were going to object to the ordination of women left when the ECUS ordained women to the priesthood, this will make no substantial impact. The more recent issue that may have an impact is her support of homosexual clergy and same-sex marriage.
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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2006, 09:44:25 PM »

If the Episcopalians have hierarchical services, how would they address this woman?  Since she is their Primate, would they say "Most Blessed Mistress, bless!"  or if they sing "Many Years" to her would it be "Eis polla epi Despotina" ?  Just wondering.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2006, 11:38:51 PM »

Well, you know, unlike in the Orthodox hierarchical services I've been to, Anglican bishops do follow the script. So you can look it up in a BCP, if you're really interested.
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« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2006, 11:41:23 PM »

Does anyone know what music the orchestra was playing while the Titanic was sinking?
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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2006, 11:57:17 PM »

Man, Keble is going to be on your butt in about 3 minutes! Watch out!  I actually am curious what he will say if he chooses to comment.

Well, I'd start by saying that the use of "queen" here was, in the immortal words of Slappy Squirrel, "tactless, yet rude".

I'm still trying to get a reading on this. You can basically disbelieve Virtue's "behind the scenes" stuff-- Bishop Bruno? Huh I don't think so. I think there are simple, non-conspiratorial (but a little surprising) explanations for her elections. The real news in this that it fits into a general pattern over the past three days of the "fudge" plan falling apart. The liberal-to-moderate plan was obviously and clearly to make a response to the Windsor Report demands that sounded good enough to claim being in compliance, while at the same time not angering the homosexual lobby too much. This is now starting to fall apart. Bp Lee of Virginia, who I viewed as a fudge maker ("Schism is worse than heresy" is a direct quote), has now come out for the key conservative demand, and on terms which are certainly unacceptable to the other side: on Friday he called for a moratorium on consecrations of homosexuals and on gay unions "until there is a consensus".

So Sunday comes around and all of a sudden we find ourselves with a PB-elect who is not only very liberal (and unusually young and inexperienced for the post), but is also a woman. The liberal spin on this is that now the homosexuals are better protected because to attack her is to attack women in genreal, who are better tolerated. Well, yeah, except that (a) this theory isn't true in the communion at large, (b) the C of E is at present going through its own battle over dealing with ordained women-- especially bshops-- and (c) now the rest of the communion has something else to be mad at us about. Rowan Williams' official statement, couched extremely elliptically and yet utterly clearly, essentially said "congratulations on your new PB. And incidentally, you've just made my job ten times harder, and there's no way I'll guarantee that the rest of the communion is going to stand for this."

The chance of a split in PECUSA has risen dramatically. Incidentally, just to warn our admins: almost every major conservative Anglican blog has been driven into the ground at least once today by sheer traffic. They've resorted to making back-up blogs n blogspot in order to be able to keep going. I don't know how the liberal blogs keep going, but maybe it's because nobody wants to read them.  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2006, 01:09:55 AM »

Does anyone know what music the orchestra was playing while the Titanic was sinking?
Folklore says it was "Nearer my God to Thee"
see: http://www.snopes.com/history/titanic/lastsong.asp

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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2006, 01:55:05 AM »

Folklore says it was "Nearer my God to Thee"
see: http://www.snopes.com/history/titanic/lastsong.asp

Appropriate, that was also the song that greeted the noble commrades of our fallen heros who returned from charging the yankee centre south of gettysburg on that fateful day.
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2006, 02:51:48 AM »

The Anglican Church in England has women priest. it won't be long be for England see it first women Bishop or it's first  women archbishop of cantaberry. it is a shame to see these two churches go against the canon Laws of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. I won't be surprized if most of the people in the Episcopal Church, leave and come in to the Orthodox Church. Grin
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2006, 02:56:27 AM »

Since she is their Primate, would they say "Most Blessed Mistress, bless!"  or if they sing "Many Years" to her would it be "Eis polla epi Despotina" ?  Just wondering.  Roll Eyes
Actually, it would be "Eis polla eti despina". The same way we address the Lady (Despina) Theotokos.
"Despina" was also my Mother`s name (after the Theotokos), and my Father`s name was "Sotiris" ("Saviour") after Christ.
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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2006, 02:59:11 AM »

The Anglican Church in England has women priest. it won't be long be for England see it first women Bishop or it's firstÂÂ  women archbishop of cantaberry. it is a shame to see these two churches go against the canon Laws of the Seven Ecumenical Councils. I won't be surprized if most of the people in the Episcopal Church, leave and come in to the Orthodox Church. Grin

There are no canons of the Seven Oecumenical Synods that forbid the ordination of women. Roll Eyes

And, quite frankly, we Orthodox have enough of our own problems without having to harbour disgruntled protestants; I suggest they stay and try to improve their lot by working within their church.
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2006, 03:01:09 AM »

it is a shame to see these two churches go against the canon Laws of the Seven Ecumenical Councils.
Could you tell me which Canons?
 For an explanation of why I ask, here are 60 pages to read on the issue: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8894.0 Wink
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2006, 03:05:07 AM »

And, quite frankly, we Orthodox have enough of our own problems without having to harbour disgruntled protestants;
And unfortunately, I think we do....quite often....
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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2006, 08:40:06 AM »

  I suggest they stay and try to improve their lot by working within their church.

But if one truly believes their bishops are going against the Traditions of the church, then they must flee from these bishops and flock to an "orthodox" hierarchy.
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2006, 08:50:01 AM »

And, quite frankly, we Orthodox have enough of our own problems without having to harbour disgruntled protestants; I suggest they stay and try to improve their lot by working within their church.

That's a little unfair. What makes you think that these 'disgruntled Protestants' haven't been considering a move to Orthodoxy for quite some time but have only felt pushed to actually do so by the proverbial last straw? At my first parish in England we had an extremely good deacon who had left the Anglican church after they started ordaining women. I noted no obvious Protestant baggage, no particular problems at all. He was one of the most reasonable and non-disgruntled converts I've yet come across and, whilst I never talked to him about it specifically, I have no reason to believe that he hadn't already been considering Orthodoxy long before he was finally 'kicked' to leave Anglicanism. I'm sure a fair proportion of any Anglicans who wish to come to us over the current issues will be the same (though there will almost certainly be some who are converting for the wrong reasons too). It's certainly not unusual for those of us who are converts to have spent a long time (quite often years) investigating the Church before making the commitment to convert and quite often the last stage requires some kind of a push. I was one of those and though in my case the 'kick in the backside' came through my family rather than my previous confession, I would rather see the positives in any conversion until shown otherwise, not automatically assume the worst.

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« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2006, 09:39:34 AM »

And, quite frankly, we Orthodox have enough of our own problems without having to harbour disgruntled protestants

Why did you, then, convert?  Are you saying you had no bones of contention with your former Calvinist communion before coming into the Orthodox Church?

Quote
I suggest they stay and try to improve their lot by working within their church.

Why in God's name would you suggest such a thing?
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2006, 09:44:49 AM »

Former high-church Episcopalians have been a substantial part of the Orthodox convert boomlet as long as there has been a boomlet, about 20 years. I don't think the latest news will change that - the stream will simply continue and won't become a torrent. A reason it won't grow is not all Episcopalians are Orthodox-like - many are more Protestant and will join conservative congregations and denominations elsewhere.

I remember reading somewhere that in fact most of the convert Antiochians were Episcopal, not evangelical.

And this part of the phenom makes sense because as Roman Catholic as they may have seemed as Episcopalians, many of these high churchmen already had much in common with the Orthodox, defining themselves as anti-papal and appealing to the content and authority of the church fathers for their views.

As for the Anglican Communion, ISTM the Episcopal Church is spiting the rest of the Communion and getting ready to leave or be thrown out, presenting itself as a global church unto itself (actually just the US and a few missionary plants in other countries). It will eventually merge with the other white upper-middle-class liberal Protestant churches, disappearing as a distinct group (they never were that big in America anyway, only influential because of social class), and continue to shrink as that class has less and less interest in religion.

Something similar will happen in England when the Anglican Church is disestablished.

There may be a new Anglican province in America, maybe the current AMiA, officially replacing ECUSA in the Communion.

I have to admire Rowan Williams' integrity even though I don't like his liberal views. He's putting those views aside to try to do what he thinks is his job, that is, serve the Global South Anglicans as well as the liberal North, even unto chucking out ECUSA even though he personally may agree with them. Trying to be impartial.

Pruning ECUSA he may save the Communion - for now.

But I believe that without state coercion the Elizabethan compromise doesn't work and the four Anglicanisms - Catholic, Central, Low and Broad (liberal) - naturally will separate from each other.

greekischristian seems to have created an online character cleverly mixing a couple of kinds of thought he has found among the Greek Orthodox (not representing official teaching and probably not speaking for a majority but those currents apparently are there): both liberal ('Hey, why not women priests?' - I've heard nominal, probably badly catechised Orthodox say that in person) and ethnocentric ('Hellas! Hurrah!' - the lodge mentality). Hence the deliberately nasty, off-putting remarks about 'disgruntled protestants'.

• 'Disgruntled' - 'You don't go along with the American mainstream like like many of us Greeks so I'm pathologising you.'
• 'Protestants' - 'Again, you aren't of our ethne, our tribe, so I don't want you here. (But if you were Greek and held liberal or Protestant views I'd welcome you.) And I may possibly know that many of you don't consider yourselves Protestants - if I know that then I'm being deliberately hurtful. Ho-pah!' (Sound of breaking dishes here.)

Very funny.
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2006, 09:48:48 AM »

Quote
(But if you were Greek and held liberal or Protestant views I'd welcome you.)

I thought that was a good post Serge, but I would remark that I do believe the approach would be as you say, but the result the opposite: my Protestant friend Mike, whom you met once, has actually been called "not Greek" because he is Protestant!

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« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2006, 09:59:41 AM »


greekischristian seems to have created an online character cleverly mixing a couple of kinds of thought he has found among the Greek Orthodox (not representing official teaching and probably not speaking for a majority but those currents apparently are there): both liberal ('Hey, why not women priests?' - I've heard nominal, probably badly catechised Orthodox say that in person) and ethnocentric ('Hellas! Hurrah!' - the lodge mentality). Hence the deliberately nasty, off-putting remarks about 'disgruntled protestants'

No, no, no. As someone who has known GiC personally for 3 years now, I must say you've got it largely wrong. GiC likes extremism. He likes controversy. He likes arguments and brashness and shock value. Period. Within this context, he especially likes to take a theoretically principled and elitist stand for the once-great-but-now-subjugated underdog. (Oh, and he laughs...A LOT).

It has very little to do with some kind of over-arching conviction, especially not ethnocentrism (he's a WASP with a gun). In fact, if the EP were actually extremely powerful, not persecuted and embraced by the majority of Americans (especially Northerners), he would probably be its greatest opponent. (Not to say he isn't right on some things, this one, i.e. the EP, included!)
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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2006, 10:10:38 AM »

Anastasios, that could be because of church membership ('not a nominal member of our church = not Greek anymore') and nothing to do with one's views (that is, one could hold liberal or Protestant views but be a member of a Greek church and thus still be 'Greek').

pensateomnia, thanks. I get it. Adopting the cause of the once-great underdog is part of this person's online pose/game.
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« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2006, 10:12:40 AM »

Excellent summary of GiC, PensaT!

Honestly, folks---GiC is someone who just 'stirs up the pot' because in his warped and twisted fashion he enjoys observing the reaction, using the controversy to feed his ego.

Normally he's a good and gentle guy, always ready to help anyone who needs it and a good conversationalist, but he is an example of how net-Orthodox are not the same as in-person Orthodox.
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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2006, 10:19:13 AM »

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Honestly, folks---GiC is someone who just 'stirs up the pot' because in his warped and twisted fashion he enjoys observing the reaction, using the controversy to feed his ego.

Isn't that the definition of a troll?
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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2006, 10:23:18 AM »

Isn't that the definition of a troll?

Yep.
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« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2006, 10:31:45 AM »

pensateomnia, thanks. I get it. Adopting the cause of the once-great underdog is part of this person's online pose/game.

No. It's not just online, and it's certainly not a game. It's just a function of personality/intellectual convictions.

I was deconstructing GiC in a certain sense, but I certainly wasn't trying to deride him, nor to dismiss his POV offhand.

It would help a lot if you knew how GiC speaks in person. I can always hear him saying what he types, and I imagine the ability to do so would make no small degree of difference in everyone else's perception.

As far as the actual topic of this thread goes, I imagine you're right: There will not be a big influx of Episcopals into the Orthodox Church. (I imagine most of those who lean in Orthodox directions theologically and spiritually would have left long ago!) Considering how Gene Robinson didn't produce any schism, however, I rather doubt the election of this Primate will do so itself. You see, the confusion is happening already. She, as a woman and person, is certainly no more scandalous than things that have happened already. The important question (as far as schism goes) is not her election or her as person, but what she decides to do/where she leads the church in the future.
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« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2006, 10:32:31 AM »

My former Spiritual Father, now a Bishop in HOCNA, told me when I was seeking to enter the OCA, that I should not bring any hatred I might have for the Catholic Church.  Also, Bishop Kallistos said something on the lines that he was grateful to the Anglican Church, because of what direction they were going, this lead him to the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2006, 10:35:54 AM »

Quote
Anastasios, that could be because of church membership ('not a nominal member of our church = not Greek anymore') and nothing to do with one's views (that is, one could hold liberal or Protestant views but be a member of a Greek church and thus still be 'Greek').

Very good distinction. If you are a Protestant/liberal in mind but go to "St Sophia's" on Sunday you're ok! Wink

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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2006, 10:37:30 AM »

This from the "Concord Monitor," up in New Hampshire, which has actually been on Robinson's case since he hit the scene:

Episcopal leaders apologize for Robinson pain ÂÂ
Today, they debate future gay bishops ÂÂ


By ANNMARIE TIMMINS
Monitor staff

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
June 20. 2006 8:00AM

 
Episcopal clergy and lay leaders agreed yesterday to apologize for the pain New Hampshire Bishop Gene Robinson's 2003 election caused the worldwide church, but not before watering it down. Instead of apologizing for breaking the bonds with their Anglican counterparts, clergy and lay leaders would say only that they had strained those bonds.

They also debated a moratorium on the election of future gay bishops at their national convention in Columbus, Ohio, but ran out of time before they could vote. They are expected to take up that question again today.

Robinson, the church's first openly gay bishop, declined comment through church spokesman Mike Barwell last night. Barwell said Robinson, who this week publicly objected to the proposed moratorium, has a new policy of not commenting on pending legislation. (The apology still faces a vote among the church's bishops.)

The apology and the proposed moratorium are being considered this week at the request of the Anglican Communion, a loose collection of worldwide churches that includes the American Episcopal Church. While the individual countries and dioceses enjoy much independence, they consider themselves one church. Robinson's election angered many in America and beyond who believe scripture condemns homosexuality.
 
 
http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060620/REPOSITORY/606200361
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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2006, 10:41:29 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9306.msg124898#msg124898 date=1150727209]
You've got to feel for these people.
[/quote]

Absolutely.   Undecided
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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2006, 10:46:36 AM »

One more article. I found this one rather interesting, especially the bolded parts. First, she has not been working in ministry for very long at all! I must agree with Keble that she seems far too young and inexperienced for such an important posistion. Second, how do conservative Episcopals who object to even the ordination of women to the priesthood -- as recorded in the story! -- justify staying in the communion? Bizarre. When I was a kid, my family was actually part of the San Joaquin diocese, so I had no idea the Episcopal church had female priests, much less bishops! I wonder what my old parish priest is up to nowadays.

Episcopal Leader Calls for Move Past Gay Debate
As Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori makes clear her priorities, some conservatives see her selection to lead the U.S. church as divisive.

By K. Connie Kang, Times Staff Writer
June 20, 2006

Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori of Nevada, who was elected Sunday as the first woman to lead the U.S. Episcopal Church, says it's time to put away the divisive issue of homosexuality and move on to the urgent mission of ministering to people in need.

"Our primary emphasis needs to be feeding people, educating children and looking for healthcare for everybody," Jefferts Schori, 52, said in a telephone interview Monday from Columbus, Ohio, where representatives of the 2.3-million-member denomination are holding their annual convention.
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
But even as Jefferts Schori called on the church to move past the issue of gay priests and same-sex marriage, her election has put a new strain on a church wrestling with its identity and mission in recent years.

An oceanographer who studied squids and octopuses in the northeastern Pacific Ocean before going into the ministry in 1994, Jefferts Schori is considered a progressive. She supported the consecration three years ago of V. Gene Robinson, who is openly gay, as bishop of New Hampshire. She also has endorsed same-sex union rites in Nevada.

Jefferts Schori succeeds the Most Rev. Frank T. Griswold on Nov. 1 and will be invested at the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C., three days later.

The archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Rev. Rowan Williams, leader of the worldwide Anglican Communion of which the Episcopal Church is a part, said in a statement Monday that the presiding bishop-elect had his "prayers and good wishes as she takes up a deeply demanding position at a critical time."

But at the same time, he noted that "her election will undoubtedly have an impact on the collegial life of the Anglican Primates, and it also brings into focus some continuing issues in several of our ecumenical dialogues."

Primates are archbishops of national Anglican churches or provinces.

In the U.S., Jefferts Schori's elevation was criticized by conservatives but hailed by liberals.

Conservatives said her election is another example of the U.S. church's departure from Scripture and from other provinces in the worldwide Anglican Communion.

"We feel sorrow for her, as she inherits the tragedy of a fractured church that has lost its sense of mission and lost touch with its grass roots," said the Rev. Canon David Anderson, president of the Atlanta-based American Anglican Council. "What signal does this choice send to the faithful in the pew and to the Anglican Communion worldwide? The election of Presiding Bishop-elect Jefferts Schori only intensifies the current trajectory of the Episcopal Church."

He also noted that her election would present problems for those who do not recognize the ordination of female priests.

Three Episcopal dioceses, including San Joaquin in California, do not ordain women. Of the 38 provinces of the 77-million-member Anglican Communion, only three — the United States, Canada and New Zealand — have female bishops.

Jefferts Schori, a licensed pilot married to a mathematician, said that during her adult life she has worked in fields where men made up the senior leadership.

She recalled that the first time she became chief scientist on an oceanography project, the captain wouldn't speak to her.

On Monday, many church members hailed her election.

"Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori is one of the most intelligent, dynamic and well-educated woman I have ever met," said the Rt. Rev. J. Jon Bruno, bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Los Angeles.

"She has a heart of compassion, a spirit of grace and the way to deal with our issues by relationships," Bruno said from Columbus. Donn Morgan, president and dean of Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, where Jefferts Schori received her master's degree in divinity in 1994, said he believes Jefferts Schori "can and will make a positive difference for the Episcopal Church … as it addresses the many issues which presently divide it."

"I am proud of the church for electing Katharine to this important position," Morgan said in an e-mail. "Katharine is, on the one hand, a careful and rigorous thinker who doesn't accept easy and simplistic answers to difficult questions and issues. On the other hand, Katharine is an open and gracious colleague who sees and covets the value of cooperation and collaboration. All of her actions seem to be characterized by patience, tolerance and a very strong will or desire to move forward together."

Jefferts Schori describes her administrative style as "relational," though when necessary she can be confrontational.

Her journey as "a person of faith and a trained scientist, begun in some struggle over how to understand the two of them together," she said.

As she read the works of great scientists such as Albert Einstein, she realized that scientists also "delighted in the rich mysteriousness" of all creation.

Science and theology are both ways of looking at the wonder and mystery of God's work, she said. "Scientists look to understand it. Theologians and people of faith look to understand the meaning behind life. I don't see why there needs to be a conflict."

The bishop-elect said she is "awed and humbled by" the election and that she will be on her knees praying a lot.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-bishop20jun20,1,890210.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&track=crosspromo
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« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2006, 11:17:09 AM »

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Episcopal clergy and lay leaders agreed yesterday to apologize for the pain New Hampshire Bishop Gene Robinson's 2003 election caused the worldwide church...

Interesting 'apology' as an exercise in condescension: 'We're sorry that you're upset' (but not for what we did).
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« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2006, 12:29:22 PM »

The report from the Concord Monitor is premature. As far as I know---

(scurries off to check the GC website)

--- none of the resolutions in question have been made final. It is abundantly clear that from the ends there is intense frustration, if not outright anger, at a fudging process that is intent on trying to find the precise balance between pretending to do what the WR says and not actually making any commitment to follow its directions.

(For those who came in late: the "Windsor Report" was put together as an official "what does PECUSA have to do in order to have a chance at patching things up with everyone else?" It does not say "admit that ordaining Robinson was completely wrong", but it does call for certain expressions of regret and for consultations before progressing further.)

The liberal vanguard resents apologizing for something they do not feel was in any way wrong; the traditionalists want, at the very least, some honesty about what the church has done. The moderates are starting to come apart too, because the people who have been saying that "schism is worse than heresy" (perhaps the most unOrthodox sentiment possible)  are now being to think (correctly, IMO) that whatever they do, they will have schism. the mood right now is extremely volatile, and Schori's election has rattled those who thought that GC was on the road to a plausible compromise.
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« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2006, 12:52:17 PM »

Honestly, folks---GiC is someone who just 'stirs up the pot' because in his warped and twisted fashion he enjoys observing the reaction, using the controversy to feed his ego.

Geez! I hate people like that!ÂÂ  Wink

Very good distinction. If you are a Protestant/liberal in mind but go to "St Sophia's" on Sunday you're ok! Wink

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« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2006, 01:46:46 PM »

You know what's funny? I actually was NOT thinking of Tom when I wrote this--but I can see why he would think I was! (Tom you are not Greek so of course I was not knocking you personally Smiley)

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« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2006, 02:05:55 PM »

not to get side-tracked but: One way to find out who is a protestant/liberal in your  local GOA parish church, I've found is if they're part of the "choir" or really root for the choir. I know that is an overgeneralization but often the people in the choir had a disgust for tradition, for anything really Greek or Byzantine (except for food and dance go figure).

Couple years ago my priest asked me to join the newly-formed choir. Like an idiot, I assumed that the choir was going to be the same as the chanters butt with women singing also (kinda like the Boston Byzantine Choir). Man, was I shocked when I saw the old man pound on the keyboard and women singing like 3 different harmonies. Since then, I have quit the choir...I don't know what it is with priests insisting on having the choir sing anything but Byzantine chant.

Greeks and choirs don't mach- bottom line! Lets leave that to the Slavs.
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« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2006, 02:45:09 PM »

You know what's funny? I actually was NOT thinking of Tom when I wrote this--

I really did not think that you were referring to me. But you have to admit - it fits me!  Cheesy
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« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2006, 02:55:13 PM »

not to get side-tracked but: One way to find out who is a protestant/liberal in yourÂÂ  local GOA parish church, I've found is if they're part of the "choir" or really root for the choir. I know that is an overgeneralization but often the people in the choir had a disgust for tradition, for anything really Greek or Byzantine (except for food and dance go figure).

Couple years ago my priest asked me to join the newly-formed choir. Like an idiot, I assumed that the choir was going to be the same as the chanters butt with women singing also (kinda like the Boston Byzantine Choir). Man, was I shocked when I saw the old man pound on the keyboard and women singing like 3 different harmonies. Since then, I have quit the choir...I don't know what it is with priests insisting on having the choir sing anything but Byzantine chant.

Greeks and choirs don't mach- bottom line! Lets leave that to the Slavs.
From you are saying, it sounds like my OCA parish choir sings Byzantine far better than most GOA choirs....and we have only a dozen or so Greeks in our parish an one old battleaxe Serb lady.  What I REALLY hate are those ridiculous Protestant choir robes many of them wear.  Stupid.
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« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2006, 02:59:12 PM »

You know what's funny? I actually was NOT thinking of Tom when I wrote this--but I can see why he would think I was! (Tom you are not Greek so of course I was not knocking you personally Smiley)

Anastasios

LOL! For some reason I DID think of Tom when I read that...and about two dozen others "Greeks"  Cheesy
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« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2006, 03:05:13 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I just received an email, from a former co-worker:  "By the way, we left the church that we were going to and we are going to ----- (our friends) church. As of last week the church is no longer Episcopal and is now a part of the Anglican Community Network.  It was the church of St. Andrew and St. Phillip and is now named Church of the Apostles Evangelical Anglican. Pray for other churches who are hoping to do the same but are against legal battles ect." So the exodus, from hetrodox bishops to those "orthodox" is beginning. 
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« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2006, 03:14:40 PM »

That's the Anglican Communion Network and it's been going on for a while. That means they've left the Episcopal Church and switched to being under an overseas Anglican bishop, maybe in Africa.

The court cases happen when such churches try to take their buildings with them. The courts say no, the buildings belong to the Episcopal bishop/diocese.
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« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2006, 03:33:19 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I just checked the web site of the Anglican Communion Network, rather impressive.  I wonder what Canterbury will finally say and do for these groups that want to remain "orthodox" Anglicans?
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« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2006, 03:56:12 PM »

The way things are going I wouldn't rule out the Communion replacing ECUSA as their official province in America with this group or a group including it.
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« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2006, 04:23:17 PM »

The moderates are starting to come apart too, because the people who have been saying that "schism is worse than heresy" (perhaps the most unOrthodox sentiment possible)ÂÂ  are now being to think (correctly, IMO) that whatever they do, they will have schism.

'Schism is worse than heresy' is such a heterodox sentiment that it was even advocated by St. John Chrysostom.
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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2006, 04:40:02 PM »

Saints including church fathers have also believed things like unbaptised babies burn in hell, no exceptions, because of the justice of God. They're fallible and can later be found wrong by the church. What the church can't do is rewrite past defined doctrines.

I agree with Keble that it's an un-Orthodox sentiment. Who's easier to reconcile with the Orthodox communion, the priestless Old Believers or the Unitarian Universalists?
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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2006, 05:13:37 PM »

HOT NEWS FLASH

The primary resolution on Windsor Report compliance was voted down commandingly. What this means is anyone's guess, or in Jim Naughton's words:

"I don't think we are thumbing our noses because that would require enough coordination to get our hands to our faces."

All three of the main conservative blogs watching the action have crashed.
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« Reply #58 on: June 20, 2006, 05:43:51 PM »

Greeks and choirs don't mach- bottom line! Lets leave that to the Slavs.

Its cause you greeks cant sing like we do  Wink
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« Reply #59 on: June 20, 2006, 06:34:27 PM »

Its cause you greeks cant sing like we do  Wink

Sad, but true.  Wink
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« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2006, 08:41:29 PM »

Saints including church fathers have also believed things like unbaptised babies burn in hell, no exceptions, because of the justice of God. They're fallible and can later be found wrong by the church. What the church can't do is rewrite past defined doctrines.

I agree with Keble that it's an un-Orthodox sentiment. Who's easier to reconcile with the Orthodox communion, the priestless Old Believers or the Unitarian Universalists?

You are free to believe as you wish on the matter, you are correct there is no absolutely defined dogma. But who commits the greater crime, the one who leaves his king for the service of another, or he that slays his king upon his throne, and then tears his body limb from limb? For the former is the heretic who simply departs from the body of Christ, the latter is the schismatic who tears it asunder.
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« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2006, 09:10:49 PM »

There are no canons of the Seven Oecumenical Synods that forbid the ordination of women. Roll Eyes

And, quite frankly, we Orthodox have enough of our own problems without having to harbour disgruntled protestants; I suggest they stay and try to improve their lot by working within their church.

Thank you for the correction, I thought that it was against canon law to ordain Womem as Priest and bishops. Thats what I was told that it was against the Canon Laws
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« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2006, 09:32:08 PM »

a little offtopic but......

Episcopal Church group rejects curb on gay bishops

CHICAGO (Reuters) - A proposal for the U.S. Episcopal Church to impose an unofficial moratorium on ordaining more openly gay bishops was rejected on Tuesday in a vote that could further roil relations with fellow Anglicans worldwide.

The issue is not completely dead since the triennial convention of the 2.3-million-member U.S. church will not close until Wednesday evening and the issue could be revived.

But the rejection by one of two legislative policy-making houses meeting in Columbus, Ohio, makes it less likely that the church will impose a moratorium on future gay bishops as the Anglican church spiritual leadership had suggested.

The Anglican Communion, as the global church is known, has been in turmoil for three years since the last such convention of the U.S. church approved the consecration of Gene Robinson of New Hampshire, the first bishop known to be in an openly gay relationship in more than 450 years of Anglican history.

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« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2006, 09:43:51 PM »

Ok, now bring on the homosexuals and it'll be all good. Smiley
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« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2006, 11:43:54 AM »

Slava Isusu Christ! / Glory to Jesus Christ!

Received this from another group I'm on...

June 28, 2006

Anglican Plan Threatens Split on Gay Issues

New York Times - By LAURIE GOODSTEIN and NEELA BANERJEE
In a defining moment in the Anglican Communion's civil war over 
homosexuality, the Archbishop of Canterbury proposed a plan yesterday 
that could force the Episcopal Church in the United States either to 
renounce gay bishops and same-sex unions or to give up full 
membership in the Communion.

The archbishop, the Most Rev. Rowan Williams, said the "best way 
forward" was to devise a shared theological "covenant" and ask each 
province, as the geographical divisions of the church are called, to 
agree to abide by it.

Provinces that agree would retain full status as "constituent 
churches," and those that do not would become "churches in 
association" without decision-making status in the Communion, the 
world's third largest body of churches.

Conservatives hailed the archbishop's move as an affirmation that the 
American church stepped outside the bounds of Christian orthodoxy 
when it ordained a gay bishop three years ago.

The archbishop wrote, "No member church can make significant 
decisions unilaterally and still expect this to make no difference to 
how it is regarded in the fellowship."

Leaders of the Episcopal Church — the Communion's American province, 
long dominated by theological liberals — sought to play down the 
statement's import, saying it was just one more exchange in a long 
dialogue they expected to continue within the Communion.

The archbishop said his proposal could allow local churches in the 
United States to separate from the Episcopal Church and join the 
American wing that stays in the Communion. But that process could 
take years, and some American parishes are already planning to break 
from the Episcopal Church. Entire dioceses may announce their 
intention to depart, as soon as today.

The 38 provinces that make up the global Communion have been at odds 
since 2003, when the Episcopal Church ordained Bishop V. Gene 
Robinson, a gay man who lives with his partner, as bishop of the 
diocese of New Hampshire.

The archbishop's statement is the most solid official step yet in a 
long march toward schism. Twenty-two of the 38 provinces had already 
declared their ties with the American church to be "broken" or 
"impaired," but until now the Communion had hung together, waiting 
for guidance from the Archbishop of Canterbury. He is considered "the 
first among equals" in the Communion but does not dictate policy as 
the pope does in the Roman Catholic Church.

For the proposal to be enacted would take at least half a dozen major 
church meetings spread out over at least the next four years, the 
Rev. Canon Kenneth Kearon, secretary general of the Anglican 
Communion, said in a telephone interview.

What should be included in a covenant could become the next focus of 
debate. The idea of a covenant was first proposed in the "Windsor 
Report," issued in 2004 by a committee commissioned by the 
archbishop. Canon Kearon said, "Many churches welcome the idea of a 
covenant, but they didn't particularly welcome the text that was 
proposed." He said he did not regard the archbishop's proposal as a 
step toward schism but as a means to clarify "identity and common 
decision-making procedures" in the Communion.

Church liberals said that any "covenant" would be crafted with the 
participation of the American church and other provinces that favored 
full inclusion of gay people.

"I think the archbishop takes a long view and underscores the fact 
that we are involved in a process rather than a quick fix," Presiding 
Bishop Frank T. Griswold of the Episcopal Church said in a telephone 
interview.

Several church officials in communication with the archbishop's 
office said he wrote his six-page communiquй, which he called a 
"reflection," after the close of the Episcopal Church's convention 
last Wednesday in Columbus, Ohio.

At the convention, the church fell short of the demands in the 
Windsor Report for an explicit apology and a full "moratorium" on 
ordaining gay bishops. Instead, the church approved a conciliatory 
statement encouraging American dioceses to refrain from ordaining gay 
bishops.

But the convention also offended the conservatives by electing a new 
presiding bishop, Katharine Jefferts Schori of Nevada, who has been 
an outspoken advocate of full inclusion for gay people and who allows 
gay union ceremonies in churches in her diocese.

Bishop Jefferts Schori, who takes office after Bishop Griswold 
retires in November, will represent the American church in meetings 
with the world's primates, some of whom do not approve of women as 
priests or bishops.

She said in an interview yesterday that she was heartened by 
Archbishop Williams's comments in the letter that he would not be 
able to mend rifts over sexuality single-handedly.

"There were expectations out there that he would intervene or direct 
various people and provinces to do certain things, and he made it 
quite clear that it's not his role or responsibility to do that," 
Bishop Jefferts Schori said.

The Anglican Communion has about 77 million members in more than 160 
nations. Members in conservative provinces far outnumber those in the 
liberal provinces. The Episcopal Church has about 2.3 million members 
but contributes a disproportionate amount to Anglican Communion 
administration, charities and mission work. The Anglican Communion 
Network, a group leading the conservative response, said it had 
200,000 members last year.

The archbishop's proposal was greeted with satisfaction by 
conservative leaders in the United States, who had formed a powerful 
alliance with prelates in many of the provinces in Africa and in 
Asia, and in some parts of Latin America. The conservatives have 
insisted all along that it is the American church that destabilized 
the Anglican ship and should be pushed overboard if it will not relent.

The Rev. Canon David C. Anderson, president of the conservative 
American Anglican Council, said: "We really believe that the 
Episcopal Church wants to follow a course that takes it out of both 
Anglicanism and Christianity, as Christianity is historically known. 
So a two-tier approach looks good in theory."

Canon Anderson said the plan could be difficult in actuality, because 
many parishes and dioceses were ready to sever ties with the 
Episcopal Church now, years before the archbishop's plan for 
reorganization could take effect. He said that churches and dioceses 
had already asked to be put under the authority of bishops in Africa 
and Latin America and that many more would do so in coming months.

"The floodgates are starting to open," he said.

The division has already led to legal battles over church property. 
Under Episcopal Church bylaws, parish assets belong to the dioceses, 
but churches in some states have challenged that in court.

Archbishop Williams said in his statement, "The reason Anglicanism is 
worth bothering with is because it has tried to find a way of being a 
church that is neither tightly centralized nor a loose federation of 
essentially independent bodies."

But that decentralization will continue to be a cause of conflict 
unless it is addressed, he said, adding, "What our Communion lacks is 
a set of adequately developed structures which is able to cope with 
the diversity of views that will inevitably arise in a world of rapid 
global communication and huge cultural variety."

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« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2006, 02:03:28 PM »

A couple of days ago on a forum not-to-be-named quoting another not-to-be-named forum that this new 'bishop' has been uttering things about a transgender Jesus. Please say it ain't so. Perhaps our beloved Keble or Ebor might debunk this, please?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 02:04:58 PM by ΑριστÎÂà » Logged

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« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2006, 02:31:18 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9306.msg126103#msg126103 date=1151604208]
A couple of days ago on a forum not-to-be-named quoting another not-to-be-named forum that this new 'bishop' has been uttering things about a transgender Jesus. Please say it ain't so. Perhaps our beloved Keble or Ebor might debunk this, please?
[/quote]

It would, alas, appear to be true:  http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2006/06/what_happens_ne.html
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« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2006, 03:21:09 PM »

Wow.  I'd make a joke about that, but I'm not that funny!
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« Reply #68 on: July 01, 2006, 04:28:51 PM »

Actually, this may result in some of the disaffected members coming into the Orthodox community. I do not know whether this is good or bad.

It already has begun. See here.http://rightwingnation.com/american-orthodox/?p=10
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« Reply #69 on: July 01, 2006, 05:02:06 PM »


Great, another disgruntled protestant seeking asylum under Orthodox Bishops...why can't they just become catholic?
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« Reply #70 on: July 01, 2006, 07:35:49 PM »

Great, another disgruntled protestant seeking asylum under Orthodox Bishops...why can't they just become catholic?
So, are you concerned by the possibility of growth of Orthodoxy? If I understood correctly, you would recommend them not to become Orthodox? Is that really what you mean?
In my opinion, that is really great that an experienced Protestant / ECUSA priest made a difficult, but a wise and correct decision according to his values and conclusions. We, as Orthodox, should welcome all of such people with open arms. I sincerely hope, that is just a beginning!
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« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2006, 09:00:00 PM »

So, are you concerned by the possibility of growth of Orthodoxy? If I understood correctly, you would recommend them not to become Orthodox? Is that really what you mean?
In my opinion, that is really great that an experienced Protestant / ECUSA priest made a difficult, but a wise and correct decision according to his values and conclusions. We, as Orthodox, should welcome all of such people with open arms. I sincerely hope, that is just a beginning!

Provided he truly wants to convert, great. But if he is simply converting because he has become fed up with what he believes to be the decline of the episcopal Church, then his conversion is mutually detrimental. The question I ask is that if the Anglican Church today was as it was in the 19th Century, conservative, high church, and, presumably, upholding the values this person advocates, and the Orthodox Church was the marginalized and disadvantaged group it then was would he still want to convert? The answer to that question should be the same as the answer to the question of whether or not he should convert.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 09:38:11 PM by greekischristian » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2006, 10:55:09 PM »

That's a good point GiC brings up. It reminds me of when in the Cadfael books he was asked why someone should become a monk. The answer was to the effect that one shouldn't if he was running from something, only if he was running toward something.
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« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2006, 11:10:22 PM »

Great, another disgruntled protestant seeking asylum under Orthodox Bishops...why can't they just become catholic?

Please no!!!

Have them go to Willow Creek!

They have more in common Wink
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« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2006, 11:13:46 PM »

GiC...if you were to qualify what you said in the "why can't they just become catholic" quote with what you said in the post following it, you'd ruffle a lot fewer feathers.

Something I know you're not wont to do, I'm just saying.   Wink

Seriously, though, I actually agree with what you're saying, now that I know the reasons behind the horrible-sounding one-liner you started off with that I quoted above.  Taken by itself, that one-liner can cause all sorts of problems, but when clarified, it makes all kinds of sense.
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« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2006, 11:19:26 PM »

I just thought he was trying to be funny!
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« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2006, 11:32:04 PM »

GiC...if you were to qualify what you said in the "why can't they just become catholic" quote with what you said in the post following it, you'd ruffle a lot fewer feathers.

Something I know you're not wont to do, I'm just saying.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Wink

Seriously, though, I actually agree with what you're saying, now that I know the reasons behind the horrible-sounding one-liner you started off with that I quoted above.ÂÂ  Taken by itself, that one-liner can cause all sorts of problems, but when clarified, it makes all kinds of sense.

You're right, I'm a sick man who needs help...not that I'll get help, but I probably do need it Wink

My approach to discussion, especially within the context of debate forums, is derived from my studies in Military Science. I just love having a strong posistion, but putting out a straw-man argument at first, then just watch everyone jump on it and slam it into the ground, feeling pretty good about their victory, then I bring the brunt of my debate to bear on their unsuspecting flanks, hopefully catching them off guard, undermining their rhetorical dignity, and routing the enemy...emmm, I mean presenting my point to a fellow scholar.

Or another favourite it to put my weaker arguments out first, arguments that, when combined with some rhetorical skill and redundancy, are just strong enough to draw the opposing arguments out, and when the opponent has thrown everything they have at you, possibly even gaining a slight upper hand in the debate, that is to say when the enemy has committed his reserves against your advanced guard, you send in the the Old Guard to crush the enemy and sieze the Austerlitzian Victory that is rightfully yours...emmm, I mean you demonstrate the value of your posistion by presenting your stronger arguments.

As I said, I'm a sick man. Grin
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« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2006, 11:33:04 PM »

I just thought he was trying to be funny!

As long as you keep that perspective with most my posts and dont take me too seriously, you may never like me, but you probably wont come to hate me too badly. Wink
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« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2006, 11:34:47 PM »

you are sick in a good way-  Cheesy
I guess I won't ever argue with you.
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« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2006, 02:20:48 AM »

GreekisChristian,
Thank you very much for your clarification. Yes, that is a very reasonable explanation. Thank you.

I am sorry, that I suspected the worst variant.

From my own experience, I witnessed a behavior of some priests in Halychyna, a part of Western Ukraine in late 1989-1990. They converted from Orthodoxy to Eastern Rite Catholicism due to the potential assignments to richer parishes. Returnees to the previously prohibited Eastern Rite Catholicism are a separate story. I am not including them in this category. One of those meal-seekers, Olexandr Zhovnirovich got defrocked by Catholics in USA, but then ended up in New Jersey on the Chancellor-level position of KP in this country.

I'm a sick man
No, no, no. Come on!
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« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2006, 07:59:51 PM »

One of those meal-seekers, Olexandr Zhovnirovich got defrocked by Catholics in USA, but then ended up in New Jersey on the Chancellor-level position of KP in this country.


What is the Chancellor-level position of KP in this country?
Sorry- I don't know if you are talking about a RC thing here or an Orthodox thing here...
It is sick how the RCC switches "bad guys" all over the place.
Another reason I have no trust in the RCC.
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« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2006, 02:46:57 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9306.msg126103#msg126103 date=1151604208]
A couple of days ago on a forum not-to-be-named quoting another not-to-be-named forum that this new 'bishop' has been uttering things about a transgender Jesus. Please say it ain't so. Perhaps our beloved Keble or Ebor might debunk this, please?
[/quote]

From what I have read it was not a "transgendered" Jesus but a very poor attempt at using a simile as well as ideas from Julian of Norwich and other quite orthodox (please note small "o") writers.   Please recall that in the Bible are such ideas as gathering people like a hen gathers her chicks.

This is causing upheaval in many places and much hyperbole. Things are going to happen over this

Ebor
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« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2006, 02:50:34 PM »

That's a good point GiC brings up. It reminds me of when in the Cadfael books he was asked why someone should become a monk. The answer was to the effect that one shouldn't if he was running from something, only if he was running toward something.

This idea has been brought up a number of times in my years of on-line discussions.  There are some Anglicans or others to go to RC or EO because they are leaving where they were which is indeed different from going *to* somewhere else.

Ebor
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« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2006, 02:52:21 PM »

Please no!!!

Have them go to Willow Creek!

They have more in common Wink

I beg your pardon, but what is your experience with any Anglicans or with "Willow Creek" that you would say this?  Or are you stereotyping Anglicans without much fact?

With respect

Ebor
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« Reply #84 on: July 04, 2006, 03:41:46 PM »

From what I have read it was not a "transgendered" Jesus but a very poor attempt at using a simile as well as ideas from Julian of Norwich and other quite orthodox (please note small "o") writers.   Please recall that in the Bible are such ideas as gathering people like a hen gathers her chicks.

This is causing upheaval in many places and much hyperbole. Things are going to happen over this

Ebor

OK, I see, I think...and then things seem worse again::

COLUMBUS, OH: Bishop Katherine celebrates transgender Jesus

By Hans Zeiger
VirtueOnline Correspondent
www.virtueonline.org

COLUMBUS, OHIO (6/21/06)-While addressing a morning Eucharist at the 75th
General Convention of the Episcopal Church, Presiding Bishop-elect Katherine
Jefferts Schori declared, "Our mother Jesus gives birth to a new creation.
And you and I are His children."

With Jefferts Schori as the leader-to-be of the Episcopal Chuch, it seems
that the church will move beyond gender-inclusive language to
transgender-inclusive language.

Yesterday however, the Episcopal Church's House of Bishops refused to even
consider a resolution that would affirm the exclusive Lordship of Jesus
Christ as "the only name by which any person may be saved." The Rev. Canon
Eugene McDowell of the Diocese of North Carolina explained, "This type of
language was used in 1920s and 1930s to alienate the type of people who were
executed. It was called the Holocaust."
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« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2006, 06:41:09 PM »

Last week, I read on some conservative blog (I have no idea what name is), that Jefferts Schori's mother was a convert to Orthodoxy (Antiochian, I believe), and that when she died, her daughter would not permit an Orthodox funeral. 
Since the Orthodox world in the US can be small, has anyone else ever heard this?  Does anyone know if it's true?  I'm not saying it *is* true, but very disturbing if it is.
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« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2006, 09:58:50 AM »

In the article quoted, she is again attempting to use (to my reading badly) a metaphor of how through the Crucifixion the New Life in Christ began.  (Oh, for an Editor and some courses in How to Write.)  I do not think that she really believes that Jesus was somehow physically female.  She's not communicating well though. 

Ebor
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« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2006, 10:03:36 AM »

Last week, I read on some conservative blog (I have no idea what name is), that Jefferts Schori's mother was a convert to Orthodoxy (Antiochian, I believe), and that when she died, her daughter would not permit an Orthodox funeral.ÂÂ  
Since the Orthodox world in the US can be small, has anyone else ever heard this?ÂÂ  Does anyone know if it's true?ÂÂ  I'm not saying it *is* true, but very disturbing if it is.

I saw this in a comment on David Virtue's site and it was also posted on another forum.  At this stage it is an unfounded or undocumented rumour.  From what I have read the mother was ill/disabled for the last years of her life.  It was reported in the comment that the mother did convert to EO prior to her illness and that she did not hold to women clerics.  However, what the mother and daughter spoke of in the last years and months is unknown to many I would suspect. 

Ebor
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« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2006, 10:08:07 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9306.msg126690#msg126690 date=1152042106]
Yesterday however, the Episcopal Church's House of Bishops refused to even
consider a resolution that would affirm the exclusive Lordship of Jesus
Christ as "the only name by which any person may be saved." The Rev. Canon
Eugene McDowell of the Diocese of North Carolina explained, "This type of
language was used in 1920s and 1930s to alienate the type of people who were
executed. It was called the Holocaust."  [/quote]

At least in my understanding, every time a stupid comment like this is made, comparing something trivial to the Holocaust, it cheapens the Holocaust.  I mean really, what are these guys smoking?  "Oh yes, speaking of Jesus Christ as the only vehicle of salvation is like what the Nazis were saying to the Jews in WWII: your race is inferior, we will exterminate you."

{extreme sarcasm} Why don't they give babies IQ tests before allowing them to be born? {/extreme sarcasm}
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« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2006, 10:17:18 AM »

I hope that you understand that the remarks of one person are just that in interviews, his/her ideas.  I was not privy to the actual wording of that resolution nor of any of the debate.  But it's always the "wowser" quotes that end up in the papers.  Wierd things and people in debate and distress make more "news"  Undecided

Ebor
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« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2006, 10:37:57 AM »

I hope that you understand that the remarks of one person are just that in interviews, his/her ideas.  I was not privy to the actual wording of that resolution nor of any of the debate.  But it's always the "wowser" quotes that end up in the papers.  Wierd things and people in debate and distress make more "news"  Undecided

Ebor

Oh, and I understand that completely.  But I'm still going to react to the wowser comment in the hopes that it will let folks who think like that know that there are some of us who think they're whacko!
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« Reply #91 on: July 06, 2006, 08:20:37 PM »

Oh, and I understand that completely.ÂÂ  But I'm still going to react to the wowser comment in the hopes that it will let folks who think like that know that there are some of us who think they're whacko!

There are plenty of Anglicans who have done the same.

Ebor
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"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
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