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Author Topic: Over opinionated New Member here  (Read 8494 times) Average Rating: 0
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Romanum Imperium
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« on: June 15, 2006, 11:43:23 AM »

Hey there everyone, Id just like to Introduce myself to the forum…Well I live in Australia and I’m being received into Orthodoxy on Saturday the 24th of this Month through Chrismation so id ask all of you for your prayers both now and for the future

In debating myself the contents of my first post on this forum (either controversial or keeping my mouth shut) I opted for the controversial…as I very rarely refrain from saying what I think (an advantage and a disadvantage I can assure u  Roll Eyes)

I would like to say that whist I fel truly connected to Orthodoxy and I love the faith very much I must say that after reading the posts of many Orthodox People over the last few weeks as a guest I really have to say how disappointed I am in the lack of charity shown to the Roman Catholic Church, the validly of its Mysteries, and the salvation of it members.

I would at this point like to state I am currently (until the 24th) a Catholic…however its not my status as a Catholic (soon to be former Catholic) which determines my beliefs…but rather my studies into Orthodoxy and Church History that determine that the Catholic Church is grace filled and its Sacraments valid.

The Divisions between East and West are very complex and as stated in other threads go back way b4 the Schism starting in 5th century if not earlier…a lot of these differences which somehow(in the minds of many Orthodox) make the Catholic Church invalid today didn’t seem to make the Christian East doubt whether the Latin church was grace filled or not back in pre-schism times….Oh I know that Mutual ex-communions were banted around between Rome and Constantinople from time to time…but they were always resolved and from what I can tell these ex-communications didn’t really call the validity of the Mysteries into question from either side. (aside from a possible argument between leaved and un-leaved bread…but even that was somewhat resolved)

I find it interesting also to note that whist the East fell into Heresy with the Icon dispute…one of the defenders of Orthodoxy was the Roman Pope (and this WAS in a time when Rome and Constantinople weren’t particularly friendly and whilst things like the Filoque, Purgatory and papal authority were being holy debated on both sides) the point im trying to make is these things such as papal authority, the filoque, Purgatory and debates about whether grace is created or uncreated does not mean that the Latin Church is without grace or its mysteries aren’t valid or even that Catholics are outside of the Church…after all if the Catholic church was heretical and void of grace back then (when it held a lot of the beliefs that Orthodox claim makes the Latin Church invalid today) what can we can for the Eastern Church whish accepted the Help of Latin Heretics???  See my Point.

Im not belittling the fact that orthodox and Catholic Churches need much dialogue to work out these theological issues…but to call the Catholic Church without grace, void of the Holy Spirit, its mysteries invalid is complete rubbish…and im appalled that Orthodox Churchmen can be so uncharitable and only pick up on the Parts of History that they choose…

Another example of this (which has probably been covered on another thread) is that after the great Schism and even after the sacking of Constantinople during the lasts of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire, the Latin’s and Byzantines were able to come together and communion together…this is evident from the texts that describe to fall of Constantinople to the Turks….if Latin’s were so evil and their Creed so wicked and wrong than this shared communing wouldn’t have happened….I Know that there is enough blame to go around on both sides for the Schism…but a lot of this is perpetuated by members of the Orthodox Church…men and women who are too prideful and arrogant and hell bent on their spin of the truth rather than listen to Christs call for Unity amongst the Apostolic Churches.

One thing that has always bothered me about both Churches (but mainly with Orthodoxy) is that one minute in their apologetics they’re saying they’re proud of the fact that Christianity assimilated their own native cultures i.e. Parts or Greek Philosophy helped Christians to Understand the Logos/uncreated energy….yet by the same token they don’t like the fact when Christianity came to Rome the Christians there put Christianity in a Roman frame work or Roman Philosophical understanding…ultimately in regards to thing like whether Grace is Uncreated or Created is untimely not important what’s really important is the if both half’s of the church are RECEIVING that Grace…its like a mathematical formula:
Latin’s use 1 + 1= 2
Byzantine’s use 3 -1 = 2
The Answer is the same its just the working out that differs between the churches.

It’s the same with the Purgatory debate Catholics believe after they die they are in  a sate called Purgatory in which they’re purified before entering heaven…and that they can be helped the prayers and masses said for them on Earth…
Orthodox on the other hand claim that after death they assigned a place either closer to haven or hell until the last judgment and those we can help improve the condition of the souls by offering prayers and Divine Liturgies for them on Earth…

Once again lots of people, both Catholics and Orthodox are so busy focused on different cultural and philosophical Interruptions on where we go after Death and they’ve missed the Point: that both Catholic and Orthodox both believe in Praying for the dead and that these prayers are beneficial for those souls and will aid them at the Last judgment.

I realise that this is simplistic on my part and doesn’t apply to such things such as the Filoque, Papal Supremacy and other disputes….but I see way to much on there about what divines us and not enough on what united us…and then the extremism of some Orthodox (and catholic people, but I haven’t encountered many of them) who say that each others mysteries, priesthoods and so on are invalid….its just not the case…all u have to do is look at the limited intercommunion that existed between the two church’s after the schism and crusades. 

Saying all that though Im Glad im Becoming Orthodox but I NEVER will call into question the validly of the Roman Church and I pray for the day when we all may be one and we are all brought into a united fold.

I just hope it won’t take a cataclysmic event like the Fall of Constrainable for us all to realise how petty our bickering really is.
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2006, 01:14:05 PM »

Well, admitting the problem (being over opinionated) is always the start to healing. Smiley

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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2006, 01:47:38 PM »

Blaspheming Relativistic Ecumenist
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2006, 02:03:36 PM »

Dear "Romanum Imperium",

Having debated such issues for years--and, I am sure, being one of the posters who has disappointed you--I am not keen on rehashing them again.  However, I would like to know on what basis in Orthodox concilar decisions, encyclicals, and writings you believe that those teaching heresy (i.e. the Latins) who have been in schism for almost 1000 years now, can have grace?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Anastasios
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MicahJohn
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2006, 02:23:36 PM »

Wait a minute, Anastasios...my understanding is that as Orthodox we don't presume to say whether anyone else has or has not got Grace.  We know we have it, and we know its not up to us to determine who else does or doesn't.  We just keep ourselves in Orthodoxy where we know we can be saved.  Am I not right?  I mean, what do we gain by proclaiming that the RCC has no Grace?  Do we save souls by saying that?

This is not to say that we can't point out errors or expose what we perceive to be heretical teaching, but that seems to me to be altogether something different from saying who doesn't have Grace.  God dispenses as He sees fit.

Micah
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 02:25:32 PM by MicahJohn » Logged
pensateomnia
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2006, 02:31:12 PM »

Wait a minute, Anastasios...my understanding is that as Orthodox we don't presume to say whether anyone else has or has not got Grace.ÂÂ  We know we have it, and we know its not up to us to determine who else does or doesn't.ÂÂ  We just keep ourselves in Orthodoxy where we know we can be saved.ÂÂ  

I'm not going to answer for Anastasios, but, according only to the logic of your statement (which has become quite a popular one), we are emphatically unable to say anything about the RCC's status and grace. Thus, we can't say: "The RCC has NO grace." But we also can't say: "The RCC definitely has grace!" (The latter statement was made by our self-described "over-opinionated" newbie, and it is this, the positive and affirmative statement, that Anastasios reacted to, asking for ecclesial documentation for such an emphatically affirmative conclusion.)

Furthermore, I don't think we often think about the implications even of this supposedly inclusive way of thinking ("We know where grace is, but not if it's somewhere else"). For example, according to the simple logic of the principle, if someone asked: "Do you confess that the RCC has grace? Yes or no." One would HAVE to answer, "No." Because one certainly couldn't confess the affirmative if one doesn't know one way or the other!
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2006, 02:46:09 PM »

Wait a minute, Anastasios...my understanding is that as Orthodox we don't presume to say whether anyone else has or has not got Grace.ÂÂ  We know we have it, and we know its not up to us to determine who else does or doesn't.ÂÂ  We just keep ourselves in Orthodoxy where we know we can be saved.ÂÂ  Am I not right?ÂÂ  I mean, what do we gain by proclaiming that the RCC has no Grace?ÂÂ  Do we save souls by saying that?

This is not to say that we can't point out errors or expose what we perceive to be heretical teaching, but that seems to me to be altogether something different from saying who doesn't have Grace.ÂÂ  God dispenses as He sees fit.

Micah

The Orthodox Church's teaching is that heretics do not have sanctifying mysteries/sacramental grace.  As far as charismatic grace, i.e. the movement of the Holy Spirit that brings people to Orthodoxy and in the case of those ignorant of Orthodoxy, gives them a relationship with God (in an imperfect way) that is where we "know not where the spirit moves."  Before some argue, "but wait! Some are of the opinion the RCC is merely schismatic!"--the answer is, it's still the same judgement.  It was a bitter pill for me, as an ex-Catholic, to swallow, but in the end, it makes sense and experience in my opinion has beared the wisdom of this truth.  That being said, I am always willing to hold a bit of "God may do as he sees fit/I won't judge your walk with Christ" attitude because I believe that charismatic grace can do powerful things, since it is from God just as sacramental grace is!

A good analysis of this subject is the book "the Non Orthodox" by Patrick Barnes. Written while he was in a controversial jurisdiction, it may contain some questionable elements (it's been awhile since I've read it).  However, overall, it is a good introduction to the subject. Thankfully, it is now online in its entirety:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/status.aspx

Anastasios
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2006, 03:38:15 PM »

based on the responces, I can see we have a long way to go...

Its amazing that  for all the talk done people danced around the issue  (or the charge) that Catholics held alot of these "false belifes" ie Purgortory, way before the great schism yet somehow it didnt mangage to void their mysteries then...yet now in the present age it does...Im sure your all great Churchmen...but appauling Christains im afraid.

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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2006, 03:43:53 PM »

based on the responces, I can see we have a long way to go...

Its amazing thatÂÂ  for all the talk done people danced around the issueÂÂ  (or the charge) that Catholics held alot of these "false belifes" ie Purgortory, way before the great schism yet somehow it didnt mangage to void their mysteries then...yet now in the present age it does...Im sure your all great Churchmen...but appauling Christains im afraid.

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You might want to actually learn humility. You say we've got a long way to go, and that we are appauling Christians. I don't know what they teach you in catechism class at your parish but these are not very Christian things to say to someone.

Latin mysteries were voided when they went into schism. That's why Latins were often baptized in the 12th and 13th centuries or at the very least chrismated and always required to renounce Latin heresies when converting.

However, before their schism, many were falling away. They had not been condemend though officially, which is why they still had grace. Also, these beliefs were not as pronounced as they would later become.

I would suggest that as someone new to the faith you not put yourself in a position to judge others who have much more experience in the faith. That is not that they are better than you but that you may also need to learn.

Do you think that those of us who disagree with you have never considered the ecumenist positions you are now advocating?

Anastasios
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2006, 03:56:37 PM »

Its amazing thatÂÂ  for all the talk done people danced around the issueÂÂ  (or the charge) that Catholics held alot of these "false belifes" ie Purgortory, way before the great schism yet somehow it didnt mangage to void their mysteries then...yet now in the present age it does...Im sure your all great Churchmen...but appauling Christains im afraid.

Who has danced around the issue? Athanasios very politely asked you to supply some proof for this claim of yours and have not done so. You may repeat your personal beliefs all you want, but that doesn't mean that you have submitted any evidence of any kind (e.g. primary documents from Synods), nor have you even begun to demonstrate that you have accurately and faithfully interpreted this (at this point non-existent) evidence in an Orthodox manner.

Until you do so, you (while still in your catechumenate!) have (a) come to this board and expressed your personal belief, (b) claimed that that personal belief is the absolute Truth, (c) refused to provided any documentation or corroborating evidence that your personal belief is shared by even a small group of Orthodox Christians (not to mention the majority!), and then (d) publically condemned as "appauling Christians" everyone who asks for clarification or does not automatically agree with these actions of yours.

Who, exactly, is being appalling here?
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2006, 04:18:46 PM »

well i am afraid Anastasios that History records that there were already profound differneces by the 5th Centery between east and west...Massive diffences...all u have to do is read the Ecclesiastical History of the English History by Bede to see what Latin's though about the papacy already!!! Purgatory whist defined by the latins at the councile of florence was already much widespread by the late 6th century...so If Catholism is a herasy....then it happened way eariler than the schism...However i think theres more logical expliantion...and that is Pride on both sides tore the Church appart...they both failed to see eachoters point of view....and whist im certinaly not absolving the Latins for their crimes against the East, the Byzantines are hardly blameless...and 2day whist the Latin west offers olive brance after olive Branch...the Orthodox reject it...after all the Roman Pope offered his appology for the sacking of Constainople...have the Orthodox ever appoligised for the desecration of the Latin Hosts??? NO
Pride tore the Church appart...and from what I see Pride (specifly on the Orhtodox side) will keep us appart.
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2006, 04:30:44 PM »

I question if you really are Orthodox or with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. Just coming here as a Pseudo-Dox and telling us to Love the Latins.
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2006, 04:31:00 PM »

I question if you really are Orthodox or with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. Just coming here as a Pseudo-Dox and telling us to Love the Latins.
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2006, 04:39:16 PM »

to sdcheung:
I should have to tell you to Love anyone...it should a pre-request for any Christian
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2006, 04:41:02 PM »

I do Love..but on condition..
it's a conditional love...
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2006, 04:41:41 PM »

LOL sorry, forgive my Spelling (its early in the morning here)

to sdcheung:
I shouldnt have to tell you to Love anyone...it should be a Pre request of all Christians
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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2006, 04:43:47 PM »



1) I have no idea why you want to convert to Orthodoxy if you feel the way you do. You should probably stay Latin.

2) You seem to think that I and others are completely ignorant of the things you say. I have a degree in Orthodox theology buddy and while I normally don't strutt that around, I think it's pertinent to this discussion. I know everything you are saying, but--now this may be hard to believe--I have come to a different conclusion than you!  Shocked Tongue

3) I do not think that you are overopinionated--I just think you are overagressive as a newbie poster.  GreekIsChristian is overopinionated, but he fits in here because he does not make ad hominem attacks and gross assumptions. You are already judging people who have been Orthodox for longer than you, some longer than you have been alive, which doesn't seem very charitable.  So just relax a bit and make your points without all the judgmentalism. Thanks.

Anastasios
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« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2006, 04:44:07 PM »

Conditional  love amusgst Christians...now ive really heard the dark side of Christianity Undecided
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« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2006, 04:45:57 PM »

I'm not going to answer for Anastasios, but, according only to the logic of your statement (which has become quite a popular one), we are emphatically unable to say anything about the RCC's status and grace. Thus, we can't say: "The RCC has NO grace." But we also can't say: "The RCC definitely has grace!" (The latter statement was made by our self-described "over-opinionated" newbie, and it is this, the positive and affirmative statement, that Anastasios reacted to, asking for ecclesial documentation for such an emphatically affirmative conclusion.)

Furthermore, I don't think we often think about the implications even of this supposedly inclusive way of thinking ("We know where grace is, but not if it's somewhere else"). For example, according to the simple logic of the principle, if someone asked: "Do you confess that the RCC has grace? Yes or no." One would HAVE to answer, "No." Because one certainly couldn't confess the affirmative if one doesn't know one way or the other!

True, but by not confessing a belief that the RCC has Grace, you wouldn't automatically be saying that it definitely hasn't got it.  But even so, I'm not sure that logics and precision are the most important thing here...don't we Orthodox often speak of the dangers of an overemphasis on rational logic?  (I just finished reading Fr. Seraphim Rose's biography, and the concept of "Orthodoxy of the heart" is still fresh in my mind).  However, I understand your point.  I think we run into error when we take the Church's statement about heretics having no Grace and make it a universal thing with no exceptions.  Doubtless we can say that as a rule, the Catholics lack the Mysteries.  I'm not sure that God wouldn't bestow them upon a particularly holy parish, should one be found.

I would just ask the question, how does it benefit RC souls to proclaim that their Church is Graceless?  I wonder if it isn't often a better practice to let others more qualified make such pronouncements, like hierarchs.  I think of certain Saints who would not judge a man as sinning, even if it was openly obvious, in order to guard their own souls from pride and not damage that of the sinner as well.

Finally, I would also take into consideration how many Catholics are actually voluntary heretics/schismatics.  But the answer to that, by now, is probably all or the vast majority, since we're speaking of the Grace of Mysteries rather than individual or charismatic Grace, as Anastasios put it.  It may be true that Catholics are Graceless, but the way I see it, it's more important that we are not.

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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2006, 05:02:12 PM »

actually Anastasios i would say that you yoursef are agressive as well...ive been reading your posts for awhile too and and whilst in many circustances I agree with you in many I do not...History tell a diffent story than the one BOTH Orthodox and Catholics tell...I have found that the Truth lies in the middle of two extremes i.e. there is Hisotrical evidence for the papacy (just not the legalist Catholic version of it) and so on...my Journy into Orthodoxy is has been 5 years in the making...after consultaion with many Priests (both Roman and Orthodox) and I feel im making the right decision...the only thing i dont like is the extremism within Orthodoxy...an extremism which 2day is unfounded... all i can say is thank God we have Good People on both side of the divide working for unity...People like Athenagoras,Bartholomew, JPII, and Benedict...whos example we should follow rather than stick on some outdated Ideology and superiority complex than hinders union
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2006, 05:08:54 PM »

Athenagoras,Bartholomew, JPII, and Benedict

ptui!!!
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« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2006, 05:24:13 PM »

RI,
In case you've been lurking for a while, you may have figured out that sdcheung likes being snarky just like you seem to be.  Again, welcome, but try not to get out of hand.

Additionally, this "no love" accusation you (and others here) have dished out has absolutely no basis.  You're talking about anonymous people on an internet message board and are dealing ONLY with the written word on a casual basis.
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« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2006, 05:43:35 PM »

My question is:

Don't priests screen for this stuff prior to receiving them into the Church???
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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2006, 05:45:07 PM »

Thank God my Preist shares at least some of my opinions
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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2006, 05:46:22 PM »

Thank God my Preist shares at least some of my opinions

Maybe they should administer a spelling test first...
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2006, 05:52:32 PM »

well Robert with comments like that it no wonder why i think alot of Orthodox are bigots...thanx for pointing out and im a bad speller, and thanx also for pointing out how unchristian so called "Christians" can be.
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2006, 05:57:57 PM »

actually Anastasios i would say that you yoursef are agressive as well...ive been reading your posts for awhile too and and whilst in many circustances I agree with you in many I do not...History tell a diffent story than the one BOTH Orthodox and Catholics tell...I have found that the Truth lies in the middle of two extremes i.e. there is Hisotrical evidence for the papacy (just not the legalist Catholic version of it) and so on...my Journy into Orthodoxy is has been 5 years in the making...after consultaion with many Priests (both Roman and Orthodox) and I feel im making the right decision...the only thing i dont like is the extremism within Orthodoxy...an extremism which 2day is unfounded... all i can say is thank God we have Good People on both side of the divide working for unity...People like Athenagoras,Bartholomew, JPII, and Benedict...whos example we should follow rather than stick on some outdated Ideology and superiority complex than hinders union

Anastasios aggressive? LOL, he may be a bit extremist in his posistions, but he hardly aggressive. I've only been able to draw him into a debate on a few occasions since I've been here. The fact of the matter is that you have been inconsiderate and offensive (especially considering the fact that this is your first post). And you're delibrately trying to prod people into reacting strongly...don't get me wrong, I do that at times too, but you can hardly get on the other people when they are offended by offensive comments.

Personally, I agree with the assessment that the Latin Church has grace in their Sacraments, but with that said, I think you fail to grasp the history of the relationship between Old and New Rome, after the Capital was moved Old Rome became a provincial backwater, Old Rome lost all influence and authority and maintained only administrative honour, which was given more out of respect for the Empire and the Caesars of old, than because of anything, past or present, relating to the ecclesiastical activities of the City. A city that has been graced by the Senate, and by Emperors from Augustus to Constantine, must be given respect for that reason alone. However, the centre of both power and authority from the time of the Council of Chalcedon was Constantinople (and even then, the real dispute was between Constantinople and Alexandria, Rome wasn't even in the running), Rome was allowed to maintain influence within her boarders, which were adjusted from time to time as Constantinople saw fit, but her influence beyond her direct jurisdiction was nominal at best. To get a grasp of this ecclesiology I would strongly recommend Met. Maximos of Sardis' The Oecumenical Patriarchate in the Orthodox Church.

Concerning purgatory, scholastic thought, original sin, etc. These theologies are simply absurd and, generally speaking, disgusting...but they're sufficiently insignificant that they should not be a major issue.
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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2006, 06:00:33 PM »

well Robert with comments like that it no wonder why i think alot of Orthodox are bigots...thanx for pointing out and im a bad speller, and thanx also for pointing out how unchristian so called "Christians" can be.

RI,
Do you not have a lot of experience with internet message boards?  Proper protocol is to be polite and friendly and ease your way onto the board, just as you would as a guest in someone's house.  Anastasios and Robert are administrators.  This board runs by their time & energy (and I think $$$) as well.  Try a be appreciative and not get defensive.
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« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2006, 06:12:11 PM »

Alright, just as the moderator, names are being tossed around here and accusations from everybody.  So, please keep your cool . . . . and everyone sit in the corner for five minutes and think about what you've done.  Wink

Seriously, though, to give a general warning. please keep name calling, accusations, someone's orthodoxy, etc. to a minimum. 
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« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2006, 06:12:33 PM »

Proper protocol is to be polite and friendly and ease your way onto the board??? sure and attcking someones spelling is polite and friendly is it?

Im actually also a gust and amember at other message boards both Roman and Eastern Catholic....and the Orthodox who post their are so rude its not funny...trust me im nothing compared to some of the Posts Orthodox deliver to Catholic message boards....the is one diffence however...Catjolics dont feel the need to ceneror what an Orthodox perosn says (unless its really bad) howver it quiet clear that orthodox get offened from the smallest things...yet they dont seem to mind offending other...It wont chage my decison to join Orthoodxy...but all i can say is thank God my future parish, and Preist are more open minded than this
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« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2006, 06:16:09 PM »

based on the responces, I can see we have a long way to go...

Its amazing that  for all the talk done people danced around the issue  (or the charge) that Catholics held alot of these "false belifes" ie Purgortory, way before the great schism yet somehow it didnt mangage to void their mysteries then...yet now in the present age it does...Im sure your all great Churchmen...but appauling Christains im afraid.

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RI,
I think you should also understand that these were issues.  It's kind of like when you have a girlfriend and finally break up.  It may be for a single reason or two, but later you start realizing all the little things that annoyed you and were wrong with her, and then you realize that she was the wrong person.  Once those annoyences come out in the open, something must be resolved between the two of your, if you wish for something to be recreated.  It is the same thing with Rome and the Orthodox Church.  They were issues, but many of them were looked beyond while we were together.  Once apart, and we admitted that there was a elephant in the empire and church, we all started talking about it.  Even though, such things may have not been fully discussed then, they exist now and must be dealt with.  We cannot sacrifice our beliefs and stances for the sake of unity with Rome.  They need to change.
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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2006, 06:18:03 PM »

Just FYI, I should say that I've been on some Catholic, Protestant, feel in the blank boards where they were just as rude.  You'll find that in anyone, and I guarrentee you that it is not an issue solely plaguing Orthodoxy.  It just depends on how unlucky one is to encounter such people.
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2006, 06:23:58 PM »

Proper protocol is to be polite and friendly and ease your way onto the board??? sure and attcking someones spelling is polite and friendly is it?

Im actually also a gust and amember at other message boards both Roman and Eastern Catholic....and the Orthodox who post their are so rude its not funny...trust me im nothing compared to some of the Posts Orthodox deliver to Catholic message boards....the is one diffence however...Catjolics dont feel the need to ceneror what an Orthodox perosn says (unless its really bad) howver it quiet clear that orthodox get offened from the smallest things...yet they dont seem to mind offending other...It wont chage my decison to join Orthoodxy...but all i can say is thank God my future parish, and Preist are more open minded than this

First of all, many boards maintained by the Latins are amongst the worst for censorship on the internet. Secondly, who here has censored you? I used to have complaints about censorship, but now that we have the private boards those are non-issues.
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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2006, 06:36:32 PM »

dantxny thank you for your post...I actually think that may been the polistest post yet and the one actually lead to real dialoge...I do agreeb there are most definatly diffences that need to be resloved between Rome and Constainople that goes without doubt....some big ones...I just feel we shouldnt write eachothers Sacred Mysteries off as void because of them...Im by no means advocating that we should partake of eacother chalices b4 we sort our differnces...i just dont think its right we call into question eachothers valiadity as having grace...I would never call into question the validity of Coptic Church becuse of the dual nature vs one nature controversy (even though i dont personaly agree with the coptic churchs chritological position) and by the same token i really feel Orthodox and catholics shouldnt write eachother off as well.

and i know ive bought this up b4...but limited forms of intercommunion have existed between Catholic and Orthodox after the great schism (manily in places where Latin and Byzantine's have been living togehter) but also during the Fall of Byzantium...I think a shame to be so legalist about it...cause it evident from the fall of Byzantium that we can put aside what divides us and come together and even commune togehter
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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2006, 06:39:10 PM »

Romanum Imperium,
Interesting name for a convert who is leaving Rome for Constantinople-
Anyways,
Congratulations on your conversion to the Church founded by Jesus Christ through His appointed Apostles to the world! It is a blessing to know that another person has entered into the Truth. May the Holy Spirit guide you on your Spiritual Journey into His fulness.

There seems to be some issues which seem to not be resolved by way of where you are coming from which is Roman Catholicism. There was also a statement regarding your Priest in the Greek Orthodox Church accepting Roman Catholic positions as valid Orthodox positions.

My greatest suggestion is to seek out a Spiritual Father, one which is preferably a Monk. I am not familiar with the monasteries in Australia, which is where you hail from, but if there are any near you or a trip away from you, please seek it out and bring every thought with you. Find one there who can see your sol; look you straight through the eyes; can know your spirit and tell you what you do not want to hear but need to hear it. This will be the one who will point you directly to Heaven and be your Spiritual Father. Excess baggage from our former faith make for a stumbling block in the Truth. Seek the Ascetics and not the Scholars.

I pray that your love for Orthodoxy grows more and more each day. There is truth here. There is the Fulness of The One Who Is that envelopes His Church completely. May the Lord bless you and keep you in His grace!

Kyrie Eleison,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2006, 06:42:57 PM »

Panagiotis thank you for your support and kind words..they are much appricated.
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« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2006, 06:48:02 PM »

oh and Panagiotis, I choise my name "Romanum Imperium" not in refence to the watern half of the Empire but rather to both Halfs of the Empire both Western and Eastern...and my chosen picture too is a Byzantine Moasic created by Greeks but commisioned by normams in scilily...another symobol of my Hope that one day we can all work togehter
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« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2006, 06:57:25 PM »

Welcome RI. Always nice to see a fellow Australian online.
My greatest suggestion is to seek out a Spiritual Father, one which is preferably a Monk. I am not familiar with the monasteries in Australia, which is where you hail from, but if there are any near you or a trip away from you, please seek it out and bring every thought with you
I'm not sure which diocese you are being received into, but the Greek Archdiocese of Australia always assigns a Spiritual Father to each catechumen, and if you are in Sydney, it is most often Fr. Leslie in Leichardt, and he certainly would not share your opinion. I strongly suggest this is an issue you need to bring up with your Spiritual Father prior to Chrisimation, rather than discuss it on a public internet forum.
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« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2006, 07:11:01 PM »

thank yo ozgeorge...i have already discused it with my Spiritual Father...I dont know how much of my opinions he shares...but he has said that he perosnaly believes in Grace within the Catholic Church...and whilst he strongly recomends that i dont partake of the Catholic Communion...as we are not in full communion...he certinly sees nothing wrong with my beliefs that the sacremtns in the RCC are valid...hes even recomened that for my relalitives who have passed away i ask a Catholc priest to offer the Mass up for them...and I should attend...just not to take communion until such time (if any) that Orthodoxy and Catholism establish some form of intercommunion.
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« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2006, 07:13:33 PM »

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, at least in the Chicago district does not assign a Spiritual Father during the Catechism/ation period. We are on our own, for a lack of a better term.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2006, 07:34:45 PM »

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, at least in the Chicago district does not assign a Spiritual Father during the Catechism/ation period. We are on our own, for a lack of a better term.
Those poor sausages! "Throw 'em in and see if they sink or swim!" Cheesy
But seriously, who then decides when a catechumen is ready to be recieved into the Church? Here in Australia, an adult catechumen cannot be received unless their Spiritual Father confirms that they are ready to the Archbishop.
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« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2006, 07:41:51 PM »

to greekischristian: Im sorry if u think i waz being rude....but in one of the first replies I recieved i waz called a "Blaspheming Relativistic Ecumenist" name calling like that doesnt go down well with me...for nothing else than expressing my opinion...so I doubt very much that I stared the rudeness
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« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2006, 07:43:43 PM »

The Priest usually makes the decision, or a Deacon if one is blessed to have one in their small Parish. As big as the Greek Orthodox Church in the US is, we have extremely few Priests and way too many tiny parishes made up of small cells across the country. My particular parish is made up of maybe 20 families and one priest, no deacon and a reader who is there maybe 50% of the time.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2006, 08:10:11 PM »

I can see some merit in that in terms of convenience, but it seems to be a terrible burden to place on a Priest or Deacon who is not an experienced Spiritual Father. Over here, there are very few Priests who are blessed by the Archbishop to hear Confession and act as Spiritual Fathers- in fact, on the entire East Coast of Australia, there are only ten. It's less convenient in that people may have to travel hundreds of miles to Confess or in the case of remote communities, wait till a Spiritual Father visits annually (during Lent), but it does mean that they get an experienced Spiritual Father. Of course, in the case of emergency where there is a danger of death, any priest can hear Confession and receive anyone into the Church.
The Cathedral of the Archdiocese in Sydney has a Seminary attached, and people from more remote parts of the State have been accomodated there to undertake part of the Catechumenate (which includes a ten week study course here). It's a big commitment to ask from Catechumens, but then, so is membership of the Church. It is a very gruelling process, but it means that no one is admitted for the wrong reasons (eg, just to keep a future father/mother-in-law happy rather than a sincere, personally-owned desire to enter the Church).
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« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2006, 08:54:11 PM »

That sounds wonderful! Its an incredible concept which would take care of alot of problems we have here in the Church in America. One of which is "just to keep a future father/mother-in-law happy rather than a sincere, personally-owned desire to enter the Church". But by our Lord's graces, people are blessed by entering the Church even if laity like me feel otherwise. But thankfully I am not the one in charge. Otherwise, i would run things mafioso style. LOL

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2006, 09:05:24 PM »

actually Anastasios i would say that you yoursef are agressive as well...ive been reading your posts for awhile too and and whilst in many circustances I agree with you in many I do not...

I beleive that I am a hardliner, and am sometimes agressive here because this is my forum (along with Robert), but I don't act like this on the Catholic forums I post on, as that would be overaggressive--the difference is the context.

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« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2006, 09:07:59 PM »

Proper protocol is to be polite and friendly and ease your way onto the board??? sure and attcking someones spelling is polite and friendly is it?

Im actually also a gust and amember at other message boards both Roman and Eastern Catholic....and the Orthodox who post their are so rude its not funny...trust me im nothing compared to some of the Posts Orthodox deliver to Catholic message boards....the is one diffence however...Catjolics dont feel the need to ceneror what an Orthodox perosn says (unless its really bad) howver it quiet clear that orthodox get offened from the smallest things...yet they dont seem to mind offending other...It wont chage my decison to join Orthoodxy...but all i can say is thank God my future parish, and Preist are more open minded than this

You must have never posted at forums.catholic.com or yourcatholic.com.

forums.catholic-convert.com on the other hand is a great RC board with hardly any censorship.

Anastasios
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« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2006, 09:10:29 PM »


and i know ive bought this up b4...but limited forms of intercommunion have existed between Catholic and Orthodox after the great schism (manily in places where Latin and Byzantine's have been living togehter) but also during the Fall of Byzantium...I think a shame to be so legalist about it...cause it evident from the fall of Byzantium that we can put aside what divides us and come together and even commune togehter

Since you seem to know so much about history, you probably also know that the Athonites and others broke communion with these neo-unionists when they did this in the 16th century.

Anastasios
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« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2006, 09:16:06 PM »

to greekischristian: Im sorry if u think i waz being rude....but in one of the first replies I recieved i waz called a "Blaspheming Relativistic Ecumenist" name calling like that doesnt go down well with me...for nothing else than expressing my opinion...so I doubt very much that I stared the rudeness


sdcheung is known for his in your face posting style; many don't share an appreciation for the way he says things oftentimes so don't think it's representative of the board. That being said, I have met him in person several times and think he is a likeable fellow in real life. I am not sure why some people are nice in person but aggressive online but I think the anonymity of the medium contributes.  At any rate, on this board you should take each person for themselves and not think there is a "general board way of thinking" because we have strived to make this board varied and open to many different people. You will be welcome to continue to post your beliefs as long as you do not try to verbally mow others down.

Anastasios
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« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2006, 09:26:59 PM »

Well, I think everyone on this forum is lovely.
Mind you, I'm on very strong pain-killers at the moment. Cheesy
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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2006, 11:29:45 PM »



forums.catholic-convert.com on the other hand is a great RC board with hardly any censorship.

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I have seen Anastasios on a Catholic Board and I can vouch for the fact that he is certainly not aggresive.
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« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2006, 09:13:43 AM »

Quote
would at this point like to state I am currently (until the 24th) a Catholic…however its not my status as a Catholic (soon to be former Catholic)

Sorry, I am coming in late. RI you will not be a former catholic. You will be truly catholic. Remember the creed: "I beleive in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church..."
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« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2006, 09:31:15 AM »

Sorry, I am coming in late. RI you will not be a former catholic. You will be truly catholic. Remember the creed: "I beleive in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church..."

Thanks, aserb.
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« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2006, 10:00:33 AM »

Conditional  love amusgst Christians...now ive really heard the dark side of Christianity Undecided

The dark side of Christianity is in the Vatican
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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2006, 10:08:43 AM »

thank you aserb for your message...though when i was writing that i was actaully refering to the Latin or Western Catholic Church...I have always  believed in the Catholicity of the Orthodox faith
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2006, 10:11:14 AM »

No TomS  the Dark side of Christianity are those who are bigots in Gods name.
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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2006, 10:19:48 AM »

No TomSÂÂ  the Dark side of Christianity are those who are bigots in Gods name.

If a Church Father rose from the dead, 99% of people today would consider him a wacko, an extremist, a bigot.

I always find it interesting when people call those who see the Faith as a simple choice between right and wrong as bigots. Read the history of the Church. ALL of them would be considered bigots in your eyes.

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« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2006, 10:33:46 AM »

you are very true...but your also very wrong...I realise that with Non-Christian Religions and the Protestant faith we need to stand firm our ground (yet in a charitable way! condeming someones elses faith as "the Dark side of Christianity" is hardly charitable for a start) but Catholics and Orthodox need to work their differnces out and thankfuly alot of the Orthodox Patriarchs are ready and willing and to do so...its a shame that cant be said for alot of the laymen.
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« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2006, 10:34:30 AM »

I would simply like to note that Romanum Imperium has yet to reference or quote a single source for his theses (even a quote from Olivier Clement would be appreciated!), nor has he answered Athanasios' very polite and reasonable request to describe "on what basis in Orthodox concilar decisions, encyclicals, and writings" Romanum Imperium has reached his conclusions.

Such is quite unfortunate. I had expected to sign on today and find at least some evidence, but, instead, I found a repetition of the thesis and (at least three) more condemnations as inferior Christians for all those who disagree with Romanun Imperium's thesis, as well as the strangely contradictory accusation that everyone else was being rude.

I'm not sure how other message boards operate, but on this board it is customary to (a) support one's argument with specific references to primary and secondary sources, both online and in print, and (b) to refrain from condemning people who ask for such references.
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« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2006, 11:55:32 AM »

..but Catholics and Orthodox need to work their differnces out and thankfuly alot of the Orthodox Patriarchs are ready and willing and to do so...its a shame that cant be said for alot of the laymen.

Really? Read the responses of the Church Fathers in defense of Orthodoxy against other forms of christian theology. They were not so charitable as you would have liked them to be.

Likewise it is the same between the corruption of the Faith by the RC's.
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« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2006, 06:06:37 PM »

Oh my God everyone is jumping on RI's back. This guy is converting to Orthodoxy. We should rejoince and through a Chrismation party.  I'll bring the slivovitz.

You know there is a lot of old yaya's and baba's out there who couldn't quote one iota of theology with us learned men and women, yet they have kept the faith in their heart and in the church, and there treasure is in heaven, not here.
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« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2006, 04:02:02 AM »

thank you aserb for your defence...much appricated

For the rest of you: This is from The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation
SCOBA Chairman: Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh
Catholic Chairman: Archbishop Daniel E. Pilarczyk of Cincinnati

The Importance of Dialogue

We are aware that the ecumenical enterprise is considered highly suspect in some circles within both our churches. Indeed, a professed anti-ecumenism is the hallmark of some uncanonical Orthodox bodies, and similar ways of thinking have a significant following within the canonical Orthodox churches as well. Within the Catholic Church, despite the affirmation of the central importance of ecumenical dialogue expressed by the Second Vatican Council as well as by hierarchical and theological leadership on both world and regional levels, there are still groups which remain apathetic towards, or even directly opposed to the spirit of ecumenism.

Even though on the surface these Catholic and Orthodox groups which oppose ecumenical dialogue appear to have diametrically opposed theological beliefs, there are certain underlying characteristics that they hold in common. They tend, first of all, to be convinced that theirs is the only true Church, and that outside its visible boundaries there can be nothing but error and confusion. Thus there is the tendency to see the world in black and white: there is either the Church in its fullness, or there is utter darkness. This is usually coupled with the conviction that "the world," along with other Christian churches and world religions, is unrelentingly hostile to the one Church, which stands in radical contradiction to it. In this way of thinking, to enter into dialogue with other Christian bodies is to run the risk of exposing the Church to the possibility of compromise or syncretism, and even to the loss of the Christian faith itself. According to this view, the only acceptable form of Christian dialogue is to proclaim the truth one possesses, in the hope that the others will recognize their errors and return to the one Church.

We recognize that some concerns of these adversaries of ecumenism have a certain merit. The Christian faith is indeed a precious gift from God, and cannot in any way be negotiated or compromised. Moreover, both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have a strong sense of possessing, as ecclesial bodies, the fullness of truth and the means of salvation. And yet we do not believe that this implies for either church that other Christian communions necessarily are devoid of truth and grace.
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« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2006, 04:40:52 AM »

and as for a Chrismation party....Yeah bring it on....how long will it take you all to get to aussie  Wink

actually bad idea...id hate to get the police involed when half of the party guests start attacking the other half Grin
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« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2006, 08:01:59 AM »

and as for a Chrismation party....Yeah bring it on....how long will it take you all to get to aussieÂÂ  Wink

actually bad idea...id hate to get the police involed when half of the party guests start attacking the other half Grin
Humorous, yet probably true Shocked. Can't have the police involved now can we.
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« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2006, 10:55:20 AM »

For the rest of you: This is from The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation
SCOBA Chairman: Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh
Catholic Chairman: Archbishop Daniel E. Pilarczyk of Cincinnati

And how did this lead you to the conclusion that, according to Orthodox theology and consensus, the RCC most definitely and undeniably has grace?

Only one person disagreed with your position on the basis that it was ecumenist. Others would like to know how, in particular, you consider the above statement (contained in the questions) to be representative of the Church in a variety of centuries.
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« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2006, 11:08:01 AM »

And how did this lead you to the conclusion that, according to Orthodox theology and consensus, the RCC most definitely and undeniably has grace?

Only one person disagreed with your position on the basis that it was ecumenist. Others would like to know how, in particular, you consider the above statement (contained in the questions) to be representative of the Church in a variety of centuries.

lol i saw this one comming
Well conserinding that Orthodox Christians cant seem to agree on a great number of things...this is possibily the closest Orthodox Statement that valiadites my position...or at leave leaves the question open
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« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2006, 11:13:56 AM »

Ah yes, that old Latin quirp that we can't agree on things amongst ourselves. Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2006, 11:28:32 AM »

actually i dont think that opinion is just latin...I'd say alot of people looking at Orthodoxy from outside would probably agree to a point...afterall this statment comes from the "Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in America" and your picking it to pieces...whist I know this "Confrence of Orthodox Bishops" is nowhere near as authoritve as a Sacred Council..its still gota count for something
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« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2006, 11:35:34 AM »

actually i dont think that opinion is just latin...I'd say alot of people looking at Orthodoxy from outside would probably agree to a point...afterall this statment comes from the "Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in America" and your picking it to pieces...whist I know this "Confrence of Orthodox Bishops" is nowhere near as authoritve as a Sacred Council..its still gota count for something

Should we perhaps modify your statement then to be saying:

"The Orthodox are no more unable to agree on things than the Latins"

since there is no shortage of discussion among themselves on policies made through their episcopal councils?
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« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2006, 12:03:41 PM »

Should we perhaps modify your statement then to be saying:

"The Orthodox are no more unable to agree on things than the Latins"

since there is no shortage of discussion among themselves on policies made through their episcopal councils?

sure your more than welcome to turn and twist my words into whatever shape suits you...still doesn't explain why the Bishops seem to have more tolerance and desire to work  problems out with the RC's...and why they seem to think Catholics may have grace.
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« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2006, 03:53:12 PM »

still doesn't explain why the Bishops seem to have more tolerance and desire to workÂÂ  problems out with the RC's...and why they seem to think Catholics may have grace.

Let's talk about twisting words..

The fact of the matter is that I support you in your decision to become Orthodox, even though you seem to have profound regrets. I truly hope the Uncreated Energies of God somehow do find their way to RC's, even though you seem determined to put words in my mouth.

Earlier today you resurrected an old thread on the Catholic Eucharist. This response of mine was posted only five posts earlier than yours:

Quote
Absolutely! Despite our quarrels with the non-Orthodox, we need for their sake and ours to have hope. However, we should be very skeptical of miracles, thinking of them neither as 'proofs' nor as 'disproofs' of the truth of the Church.

Researching other posts you will also find similar quotes, such as one discussion with MA where I specifically mention that 'we Orthodox know where the Church is, but not where it is not'.

Even more insulting to me than your obvious lack of interest in reading what I have posted, however, is your insistance on not answering questions posed to you. Currently in this thread:

1. Pensateomnia:
 
Quote
Such is quite unfortunate. I had expected to sign on today and find at least some evidence, but, instead, I found a repetition of the thesis and (at least three) more condemnations as inferior Christians for all those who disagree with Romanun Imperium's thesis, as well as the strangely contradictory accusation that everyone else was being rude.

2. I then make an observation that discussion occurs among both the Orthodox and the Latins when their bishops make decisions, and imply through this that the mere fact questions are asked does not support your contention that the Orthodox are not unified unless you are also willing to accept that Latins are also as 'disunited' as Orthodox.

Your response to this is to accuse me of twisting your words. Instead of perhaps saying something like 'Touche!' or 'Well, I have other examples in mind like such and such' instead you ignore someone attempting to converse with you.
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« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2006, 05:17:02 PM »

Your response to this is to accuse me of twisting your words.

Par for the course, my friend. After Romanum Imperium posted his quote from the bi-lateral dialogues going on in the U.S., I asked a simple question: How does this generic statement, with which most of us (if not all of us) participating in this discussion agree, even speak to your (Romanum Imperium's) conclusion that an Orthodox Christian should confess that the RCC absolutely and unequivocally has grace in its sacraments? (Much less prove that such a confession is widespread, required or advisable.)

His response to this question was (a) Orthodox can't agree on many things; and (b) somehow this allegedly putative lack of agreement on a "great many things" validates or at least leaves room for his very strong opinion on this particular matter.

Personally, I can't see how the above statement makes any sense simply as a matter of clear thinking, but that's another matter.

The issue at hand, however, is that after this very simple question and response, Anastasios labeled as "Latin" RI's paticular response (i.e. Orthodox can't agree on a great many things) -- a label which he did not apply, mind you, to the SCOBA-sponsored statement. Anastasios' criticism was directed at RI's justification by appeal to a putative lack of agreement on "many things," not the Bishops' statement itself, about which no one has written a single negative word.

And yet, somehow, RI contends:

afterall this statment comes from the "Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops in America" and your picking it to pieces...

That ain't even twisting; it's merely fabrication. I'm sure, however, that it is not intentionally malicious, but simply the unfortunate fruit of careless reading. In fact, it seems to me that most of the misunderstanding on this thread has resulted from a lack of clarity and precision. For example, RI wrote:

still doesn't explain why the Bishops seem to have more tolerance and desire to workÂÂ  problems out with the RC's...and why they seem to think Catholics may have grace.

This is obviously true. Many Bishops do indeed want to dialogue with the RCC, including the EP. Other do indeed seem to think that "Catholics may have grace." Both of these statements, however, do not necessarily justify RI's claim that (a) he shall NEVER call into question the validity of the Roman Church (why wouldn't one ask a question?); (b) an Orthodox Christian cannot call these things into question because "that's just not the case"; (c) all those Orthodox who do so are extremists and appalling Churchmen (not Christians).

Those are quite amazing claims and therefore require amazing proof (historical, Synodal, canonical, spiritual, sacramental and theological). "Maybe" is a long way from absolutely. And that's to say nothing about claim (c), i.e. the various blanket innuendos about extremism, being appalling Christians, etc. -- all of which are completely unwarranted attacks, all of which have yet to be retracted.

Should we desire to continue this discussion along substantive lines, I imagine RI will have to rephrase his original thesis. This recent bit about "maybe" is quite hopeful and much more supportable.

RI: FYI, should you desire to look into it, The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation has issued more than 20 statements in the last several decades, several of which are much more applicable to your thesis than the one you quoted. I suggest you read those, post the sections you find appropriate, and we can discuss their applicability and authority.

Even more than these, you might want to read the statements of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, which at least includes clergy and theologians from many countries.

Otherwise, a number of articles on related topics have been written by Fr. Emmanuel Clapsis, one of the most vocal Greek ecumenists in the last decade. You may have read some of his stuff already. If not, check out: The Boundaries of the Church: An Orthodox Debate.

Cheers, everyone!
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« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2006, 07:05:43 PM »

To pensateomnia...thank you for your responce...and I am sorry if i have jumped the gun slightly in my responces..if so I do appoligise...it just seems rather actaully answering my post regurding the what Bishops confrence certin people just threw more spaners into the works by going off topic and bringign up somthing not quiet applicable i.e. Catholics and their in-fighting rather than actually adressing the point i was trying to make.

As for my "attacks about being appuling Christians." im sorry thats my belief...As A child i was taught you can be as devout in your faith as you like...but if u lack charity toward your fellow neighbour than your faith isnt worth much.

I was also reading a Orthodox article (cant rember the website sorry) in which a young Guy converted to Orthodoxy...he was very devout, verberated icons, made grand prostrations etc but he was extremly uncharitable and sopke badly of Non-Orthodox people etc, and the People of the Church said "be may be a good Orthodox but hes a bad Christian."

So in the same way Im sorry but my belief is if your uncharitable (and alot of people here are) to others no amount of "True Faith" will make you a good Christian...you may be a great churchman (ie go to liturgy, venerate Icons, and even Pray) but thats still doen't make you a Good Chrstian.
And my priest had also said somthing very similar to me...sorry if that offends people.

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« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2006, 07:15:44 PM »

And as for my statement regurding that "I will never doubt the Validity of the Catholic mysteries"  well maybe your right maybe thats slightly Over presumptuous on my part...so thank you for pointing out my error...now maybe youd be so be kind as to point out the same error  of Over presumptuous to those who completly denounce as void and without grace the Catholic Mysteries.
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« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2006, 08:21:18 PM »

Quote
As for my "attacks about being appuling Christians." im sorry thats my belief...As A child i was taught you can be as devout in your faith as you like...but if u lack charity toward your fellow neighbour than your faith isnt worth much.

So let me get this straight. In your first post, you loudly announced that you were known as a no-holds-barred type who is overopinionated. But you fault some of us for being "uncharitable?" Do you see the irony?

I agree that we must be charitable. I believe it is highly UNcharitable to let people believe false things if they ask for an answer. So while I would not go to a RC and start denouncing their Church, if one asked me if I thought their sacraments had grace I would answer no.  If I said yes they may think that they are in the Church and that they have no reason to move to Orthodoxy.  If God works in the RCC (which I believe he does in a charismatic way) then that is a case-by-case basis and not the visible church.

Anastasios
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« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2006, 08:38:04 PM »

the "overopinated new member here" was designed to make  light of both myself and my original post...went over most of ur heads obously....and may I say that the attacks started pretty much from there on...for (at that Point) having an opinion...

I will stick to my Guns and say that most people here are uncharitable...in the last few days ive recieved a few Private messgaes from other Orthodox Christians agreeing with my assesment that there is a definate lack of charity here on this Board (No catholics surprisingly) so i know im not the only one that thinks so...
I'll do us all a favour and stop using this message board...however ill be advising both Catholics and Orthodox of Good will to avoid this message board like the plauge.

 
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« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2006, 08:59:38 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

It saddens me when I read posts like the one above.  How is it that Orthodox drive away fellow Orthodox?  Can someone explain that to me?

Please pray for me.
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« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2006, 10:28:02 PM »

the "overopinated new member here" was designed to make  light of both myself and my original post...went over most of ur heads obously....and may I say that the attacks started pretty much from there on...for (at that Point) having an opinion...

Yes, it did obviously go over our heads, because you were not being clear. Anyway, you were never attacked for your opinon--there are many others here who share your very same opinion and yet they seem to get along fine.

Quote
I will stick to my Guns and say that most people here are uncharitable...in the last few days ive recieved a few Private messgaes from other Orthodox Christians agreeing with my assesment that there is a definate lack of charity here on this Board (No catholics surprisingly) so i know im not the only one that thinks so...

There's a lack of charity everywhere my friend.  I'm sorry that you don't feel welcome here but you are welcome to share your beliefs. However, the way you made your entry can account for a part of the reason that you did not get a warm welcome. The rest is certainly due to our sinfulness and we do apologize for our part. As for others agreeing with you, I am sure they do--online forums are not for everyone.  We try to make them good places to stay and people have constantly told me that this is by far the funnest and most laid back Orthodox forum on the internet, but we're not perfect.

Quote
I'll do us all a favour and stop using this message board...however ill be advising both Catholics and Orthodox of Good will to avoid this message board like the plauge.

I hope you will reconsider your decision to leave this forum and actually start posting more productively. It's funny, all you really would have to do is say, "I'm sorry I came on strong" and everything would be fine--over the past four years, we've had our share of heated debates and they usually end up fine.  How about we just close this thread and you can get a clean start.  I'm sure if you express a desire to interract with us and learn from us just as we will learn from you then things will progress better. But if you came here to teach us--which is the impression you gave--you have not succeeded in making a good impression.

As for telling others to avoid our forum like the plague, you wouldn't be the first to do so and given that the vast majority of people on earth have never heard of this site, it will probably only give us some publicity.  However, I do not believe that you will be giving people a fair assessment as you were not exactly the most charitable and non-judgmental participant.  But like I said, if you'd like, we can just close this thread and try to have a fresh start.  We really are not interested in enforcing any one viewpoint as that would stiffle the debate.

Again, I am sorry that you did not get the warm welcome you expected and if you chose to stay on I am sure everyone will give you another chance to state your beliefs.

Anastasios
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« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2006, 10:28:20 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

It saddens me when I read posts like the one above.  How is it that Orthodox drive away fellow Orthodox?  Can someone explain that to me?

Please pray for me.

Sin, my friend, sin.

Anastasios
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« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2006, 11:37:09 PM »

[quote author=Anastasios
As for telling others to avoid our forum like the plague, you wouldn't be the first to do so and given that the vast majority of people on earth have never heard of this site, it will probably only give us some publicity.ÂÂ  However, I do not believe that you will be giving people a fair assessment as you were not exactly the most charitable and non-judgmental participant.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

If you read my Original Article you will see that I wasnt judgemntal i was trying to expresss my point of view in a way that suppotrted both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, in a way i hoped would allow eachother to see eye to eye (admittly it was amimed more at the Orthodox, as Catholics have already tried to embrase Eastern Christianity with open arms)...what was judgemental is what came after that... and if after the insults about being a Blasphemer  that I had the ordasity to remind people to act with chrstian charity 2wards their neighbour and "sister church" and even comment that some people act like Bad Chrstian for their lack of Chrstian Charity...I wont appoligise for that.

thank you very much for your peace offering Anastasios however its become blainently obovous that Christ doesnt dwell here...People caling eachother names, calling those with differnt opinions "Blaspheming Ecumeucists" making snarky remarks about spelling errors, and putting gods grace into a box have proved that to me 2day..more over its sign that the Adversary has sown seeds of malice amusgt many here.

Whist I do forgive those who have been rude and do myself appoligse for comming on 2 strong (even though it was designed to make light of both myself and topic) i feel that to remain would do untold dammage to my Faith in Holy Orthodoxy...as it has already made me question it.

I Pray for the day when Coptics,Catholics and Orthodox may be united in the one true fold.
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« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2006, 11:49:44 PM »

Fair enough, RI.  While I strongly object to the sentiment that Christ does not dwell here, I certainly admit that we have our shortcomings and wish you well on your conversion and life as an Orthodox.

Anastasios
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« Reply #81 on: June 18, 2006, 02:33:35 AM »

Romanum Imperium,

If I have offended, I apologize, sir.
Please feel free to say as you wish and I pray that we here will not judge until we have plucked the log from our eye before we tell others of the twig in theirs.

Sometime we forget that our boast of the True Faith requires our love and humility to flourish instead of our two-edged tonguie, sharp and deadly. While somoe here are ecumenical towards the ROman Catholic Church, others who are not need to show our differences by our words and actions of love and charity instead of brutally assaulting those who do accept the ecumenical discussions between Rome and Constantinople.

We are Orthodox. Let us all never forget the love of our Lord Jesus who broke bread with the  whore and the Pharisee together. So can we share His love to those who see the Truth in the Church and desire its Mysteries? Even when they bring their baggage to His door from their previous church, let Him clean them through the Mysteries of our faith and let us just pray for their walk to be fulfilling and humble as well.

Lord, Have Mercy,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #82 on: June 18, 2006, 11:35:27 AM »

RI,

Geez. Enough of your whining! Grow up and accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you.

You think everyone agrees with me? Do you think I CARE? No. Why? Because I am an ADULT and are confident in my misguided and wayward opinions.

Either stop acting like a baby or just GO AWAY! That Christian enough for you?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 11:40:11 AM by TomS » Logged
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« Reply #83 on: June 18, 2006, 03:14:05 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

I Pray for the day when Coptics,Catholics and Orthodox may be united in the one true fold.

While I realize this may not be the forum to discuss this, I really couldn't help it.  I'm concerned with the implications of this statement.  Coptics are Orthodox.  Just felt the need to bring that point home.

Please pray for me.
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Cephas 

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« Reply #84 on: June 18, 2006, 04:11:34 PM »

I'm concerned with the implications of this statement.ÂÂ  Coptics are Orthodox.ÂÂ  Just felt the need to bring that point home.

Hmmm. You must be a newbie.   Cheesy
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« Reply #85 on: June 18, 2006, 06:24:41 PM »

+ Irini nem ehmot,

Tom,

While I am by no means a veteran of these board, I wouldn't classify myself as a 'newbie' either.  I am familiar with some of the opinions here and they are just that: opinions.  The fact of the matter is, Copts are just as Orthodox as any of the other culturally distinct Eastern Orthodox 'denominations' (for lack of a better word).  Again, I apologize for the digression.

Please pray for me. 
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Cephas 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed."
-- Isaiah 53:5

"He who knows himself knows God"
-- Pi Nishti Abba Antony
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« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2006, 07:30:46 PM »

RI,

Geez. Enough of your whining! Grow up and accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you.

You think everyone agrees with me? Do you think I CARE? No. Why? Because I am an ADULT and are confident in my misguided and wayward opinions.

Either stop acting like a baby or just GO AWAY! That Christian enough for you?

Tom, give me a break.  Do adults post as you just did?  Or often do?  RI's reaction doesn't surprise me at all when I read things like this.
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« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2006, 10:31:50 PM »

Whatever adult behaviour is, it is far from this.  Please keep it civil in other threads.  Perhaps we need a debate on best ways to debate on on-line forums, just not in this thread.  Unless someone's willing to go back to the original idea (you can pm me), otherwise this is getting out of control.  Sorry guys, this just isn't appropriate.
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