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Author Topic: Over opinionated New Member here  (Read 8645 times) Average Rating: 0
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Romanum Imperium
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« on: June 15, 2006, 11:43:23 AM »

Hey there everyone, Id just like to Introduce myself to the forum…Well I live in Australia and I’m being received into Orthodoxy on Saturday the 24th of this Month through Chrismation so id ask all of you for your prayers both now and for the future

In debating myself the contents of my first post on this forum (either controversial or keeping my mouth shut) I opted for the controversial…as I very rarely refrain from saying what I think (an advantage and a disadvantage I can assure u  Roll Eyes)

I would like to say that whist I fel truly connected to Orthodoxy and I love the faith very much I must say that after reading the posts of many Orthodox People over the last few weeks as a guest I really have to say how disappointed I am in the lack of charity shown to the Roman Catholic Church, the validly of its Mysteries, and the salvation of it members.

I would at this point like to state I am currently (until the 24th) a Catholic…however its not my status as a Catholic (soon to be former Catholic) which determines my beliefs…but rather my studies into Orthodoxy and Church History that determine that the Catholic Church is grace filled and its Sacraments valid.

The Divisions between East and West are very complex and as stated in other threads go back way b4 the Schism starting in 5th century if not earlier…a lot of these differences which somehow(in the minds of many Orthodox) make the Catholic Church invalid today didn’t seem to make the Christian East doubt whether the Latin church was grace filled or not back in pre-schism times….Oh I know that Mutual ex-communions were banted around between Rome and Constantinople from time to time…but they were always resolved and from what I can tell these ex-communications didn’t really call the validity of the Mysteries into question from either side. (aside from a possible argument between leaved and un-leaved bread…but even that was somewhat resolved)

I find it interesting also to note that whist the East fell into Heresy with the Icon dispute…one of the defenders of Orthodoxy was the Roman Pope (and this WAS in a time when Rome and Constantinople weren’t particularly friendly and whilst things like the Filoque, Purgatory and papal authority were being holy debated on both sides) the point im trying to make is these things such as papal authority, the filoque, Purgatory and debates about whether grace is created or uncreated does not mean that the Latin Church is without grace or its mysteries aren’t valid or even that Catholics are outside of the Church…after all if the Catholic church was heretical and void of grace back then (when it held a lot of the beliefs that Orthodox claim makes the Latin Church invalid today) what can we can for the Eastern Church whish accepted the Help of Latin Heretics???  See my Point.

Im not belittling the fact that orthodox and Catholic Churches need much dialogue to work out these theological issues…but to call the Catholic Church without grace, void of the Holy Spirit, its mysteries invalid is complete rubbish…and im appalled that Orthodox Churchmen can be so uncharitable and only pick up on the Parts of History that they choose…

Another example of this (which has probably been covered on another thread) is that after the great Schism and even after the sacking of Constantinople during the lasts of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire, the Latin’s and Byzantines were able to come together and communion together…this is evident from the texts that describe to fall of Constantinople to the Turks….if Latin’s were so evil and their Creed so wicked and wrong than this shared communing wouldn’t have happened….I Know that there is enough blame to go around on both sides for the Schism…but a lot of this is perpetuated by members of the Orthodox Church…men and women who are too prideful and arrogant and hell bent on their spin of the truth rather than listen to Christs call for Unity amongst the Apostolic Churches.

One thing that has always bothered me about both Churches (but mainly with Orthodoxy) is that one minute in their apologetics they’re saying they’re proud of the fact that Christianity assimilated their own native cultures i.e. Parts or Greek Philosophy helped Christians to Understand the Logos/uncreated energy….yet by the same token they don’t like the fact when Christianity came to Rome the Christians there put Christianity in a Roman frame work or Roman Philosophical understanding…ultimately in regards to thing like whether Grace is Uncreated or Created is untimely not important what’s really important is the if both half’s of the church are RECEIVING that Grace…its like a mathematical formula:
Latin’s use 1 + 1= 2
Byzantine’s use 3 -1 = 2
The Answer is the same its just the working out that differs between the churches.

It’s the same with the Purgatory debate Catholics believe after they die they are in  a sate called Purgatory in which they’re purified before entering heaven…and that they can be helped the prayers and masses said for them on Earth…
Orthodox on the other hand claim that after death they assigned a place either closer to haven or hell until the last judgment and those we can help improve the condition of the souls by offering prayers and Divine Liturgies for them on Earth…

Once again lots of people, both Catholics and Orthodox are so busy focused on different cultural and philosophical Interruptions on where we go after Death and they’ve missed the Point: that both Catholic and Orthodox both believe in Praying for the dead and that these prayers are beneficial for those souls and will aid them at the Last judgment.

I realise that this is simplistic on my part and doesn’t apply to such things such as the Filoque, Papal Supremacy and other disputes….but I see way to much on there about what divines us and not enough on what united us…and then the extremism of some Orthodox (and catholic people, but I haven’t encountered many of them) who say that each others mysteries, priesthoods and so on are invalid….its just not the case…all u have to do is look at the limited intercommunion that existed between the two church’s after the schism and crusades. 

Saying all that though Im Glad im Becoming Orthodox but I NEVER will call into question the validly of the Roman Church and I pray for the day when we all may be one and we are all brought into a united fold.

I just hope it won’t take a cataclysmic event like the Fall of Constrainable for us all to realise how petty our bickering really is.
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2006, 01:14:05 PM »

Well, admitting the problem (being over opinionated) is always the start to healing. Smiley

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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2006, 01:47:38 PM »

Blaspheming Relativistic Ecumenist
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2006, 02:03:36 PM »

Dear "Romanum Imperium",

Having debated such issues for years--and, I am sure, being one of the posters who has disappointed you--I am not keen on rehashing them again.  However, I would like to know on what basis in Orthodox concilar decisions, encyclicals, and writings you believe that those teaching heresy (i.e. the Latins) who have been in schism for almost 1000 years now, can have grace?

Thank you for your thoughts.

Anastasios
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MicahJohn
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2006, 02:23:36 PM »

Wait a minute, Anastasios...my understanding is that as Orthodox we don't presume to say whether anyone else has or has not got Grace.  We know we have it, and we know its not up to us to determine who else does or doesn't.  We just keep ourselves in Orthodoxy where we know we can be saved.  Am I not right?  I mean, what do we gain by proclaiming that the RCC has no Grace?  Do we save souls by saying that?

This is not to say that we can't point out errors or expose what we perceive to be heretical teaching, but that seems to me to be altogether something different from saying who doesn't have Grace.  God dispenses as He sees fit.

Micah
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 02:25:32 PM by MicahJohn » Logged
pensateomnia
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2006, 02:31:12 PM »

Wait a minute, Anastasios...my understanding is that as Orthodox we don't presume to say whether anyone else has or has not got Grace.ÂÂ  We know we have it, and we know its not up to us to determine who else does or doesn't.ÂÂ  We just keep ourselves in Orthodoxy where we know we can be saved.ÂÂ  

I'm not going to answer for Anastasios, but, according only to the logic of your statement (which has become quite a popular one), we are emphatically unable to say anything about the RCC's status and grace. Thus, we can't say: "The RCC has NO grace." But we also can't say: "The RCC definitely has grace!" (The latter statement was made by our self-described "over-opinionated" newbie, and it is this, the positive and affirmative statement, that Anastasios reacted to, asking for ecclesial documentation for such an emphatically affirmative conclusion.)

Furthermore, I don't think we often think about the implications even of this supposedly inclusive way of thinking ("We know where grace is, but not if it's somewhere else"). For example, according to the simple logic of the principle, if someone asked: "Do you confess that the RCC has grace? Yes or no." One would HAVE to answer, "No." Because one certainly couldn't confess the affirmative if one doesn't know one way or the other!
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2006, 02:46:09 PM »

Wait a minute, Anastasios...my understanding is that as Orthodox we don't presume to say whether anyone else has or has not got Grace.ÂÂ  We know we have it, and we know its not up to us to determine who else does or doesn't.ÂÂ  We just keep ourselves in Orthodoxy where we know we can be saved.ÂÂ  Am I not right?ÂÂ  I mean, what do we gain by proclaiming that the RCC has no Grace?ÂÂ  Do we save souls by saying that?

This is not to say that we can't point out errors or expose what we perceive to be heretical teaching, but that seems to me to be altogether something different from saying who doesn't have Grace.ÂÂ  God dispenses as He sees fit.

Micah

The Orthodox Church's teaching is that heretics do not have sanctifying mysteries/sacramental grace.  As far as charismatic grace, i.e. the movement of the Holy Spirit that brings people to Orthodoxy and in the case of those ignorant of Orthodoxy, gives them a relationship with God (in an imperfect way) that is where we "know not where the spirit moves."  Before some argue, "but wait! Some are of the opinion the RCC is merely schismatic!"--the answer is, it's still the same judgement.  It was a bitter pill for me, as an ex-Catholic, to swallow, but in the end, it makes sense and experience in my opinion has beared the wisdom of this truth.  That being said, I am always willing to hold a bit of "God may do as he sees fit/I won't judge your walk with Christ" attitude because I believe that charismatic grace can do powerful things, since it is from God just as sacramental grace is!

A good analysis of this subject is the book "the Non Orthodox" by Patrick Barnes. Written while he was in a controversial jurisdiction, it may contain some questionable elements (it's been awhile since I've read it).  However, overall, it is a good introduction to the subject. Thankfully, it is now online in its entirety:

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/status.aspx

Anastasios
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2006, 03:38:15 PM »

based on the responces, I can see we have a long way to go...

Its amazing that  for all the talk done people danced around the issue  (or the charge) that Catholics held alot of these "false belifes" ie Purgortory, way before the great schism yet somehow it didnt mangage to void their mysteries then...yet now in the present age it does...Im sure your all great Churchmen...but appauling Christains im afraid.

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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2006, 03:43:53 PM »

based on the responces, I can see we have a long way to go...

Its amazing thatÂÂ  for all the talk done people danced around the issueÂÂ  (or the charge) that Catholics held alot of these "false belifes" ie Purgortory, way before the great schism yet somehow it didnt mangage to void their mysteries then...yet now in the present age it does...Im sure your all great Churchmen...but appauling Christains im afraid.

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You might want to actually learn humility. You say we've got a long way to go, and that we are appauling Christians. I don't know what they teach you in catechism class at your parish but these are not very Christian things to say to someone.

Latin mysteries were voided when they went into schism. That's why Latins were often baptized in the 12th and 13th centuries or at the very least chrismated and always required to renounce Latin heresies when converting.

However, before their schism, many were falling away. They had not been condemend though officially, which is why they still had grace. Also, these beliefs were not as pronounced as they would later become.

I would suggest that as someone new to the faith you not put yourself in a position to judge others who have much more experience in the faith. That is not that they are better than you but that you may also need to learn.

Do you think that those of us who disagree with you have never considered the ecumenist positions you are now advocating?

Anastasios
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2006, 03:56:37 PM »

Its amazing thatÂÂ  for all the talk done people danced around the issueÂÂ  (or the charge) that Catholics held alot of these "false belifes" ie Purgortory, way before the great schism yet somehow it didnt mangage to void their mysteries then...yet now in the present age it does...Im sure your all great Churchmen...but appauling Christains im afraid.

Who has danced around the issue? Athanasios very politely asked you to supply some proof for this claim of yours and have not done so. You may repeat your personal beliefs all you want, but that doesn't mean that you have submitted any evidence of any kind (e.g. primary documents from Synods), nor have you even begun to demonstrate that you have accurately and faithfully interpreted this (at this point non-existent) evidence in an Orthodox manner.

Until you do so, you (while still in your catechumenate!) have (a) come to this board and expressed your personal belief, (b) claimed that that personal belief is the absolute Truth, (c) refused to provided any documentation or corroborating evidence that your personal belief is shared by even a small group of Orthodox Christians (not to mention the majority!), and then (d) publically condemned as "appauling Christians" everyone who asks for clarification or does not automatically agree with these actions of yours.

Who, exactly, is being appalling here?
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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2006, 04:18:46 PM »

well i am afraid Anastasios that History records that there were already profound differneces by the 5th Centery between east and west...Massive diffences...all u have to do is read the Ecclesiastical History of the English History by Bede to see what Latin's though about the papacy already!!! Purgatory whist defined by the latins at the councile of florence was already much widespread by the late 6th century...so If Catholism is a herasy....then it happened way eariler than the schism...However i think theres more logical expliantion...and that is Pride on both sides tore the Church appart...they both failed to see eachoters point of view....and whist im certinaly not absolving the Latins for their crimes against the East, the Byzantines are hardly blameless...and 2day whist the Latin west offers olive brance after olive Branch...the Orthodox reject it...after all the Roman Pope offered his appology for the sacking of Constainople...have the Orthodox ever appoligised for the desecration of the Latin Hosts??? NO
Pride tore the Church appart...and from what I see Pride (specifly on the Orhtodox side) will keep us appart.
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2006, 04:30:44 PM »

I question if you really are Orthodox or with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. Just coming here as a Pseudo-Dox and telling us to Love the Latins.
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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2006, 04:31:00 PM »

I question if you really are Orthodox or with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. Just coming here as a Pseudo-Dox and telling us to Love the Latins.
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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2006, 04:39:16 PM »

to sdcheung:
I should have to tell you to Love anyone...it should a pre-request for any Christian
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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2006, 04:41:02 PM »

I do Love..but on condition..
it's a conditional love...
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« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2006, 04:41:41 PM »

LOL sorry, forgive my Spelling (its early in the morning here)

to sdcheung:
I shouldnt have to tell you to Love anyone...it should be a Pre request of all Christians
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« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2006, 04:43:47 PM »



1) I have no idea why you want to convert to Orthodoxy if you feel the way you do. You should probably stay Latin.

2) You seem to think that I and others are completely ignorant of the things you say. I have a degree in Orthodox theology buddy and while I normally don't strutt that around, I think it's pertinent to this discussion. I know everything you are saying, but--now this may be hard to believe--I have come to a different conclusion than you!  Shocked Tongue

3) I do not think that you are overopinionated--I just think you are overagressive as a newbie poster.  GreekIsChristian is overopinionated, but he fits in here because he does not make ad hominem attacks and gross assumptions. You are already judging people who have been Orthodox for longer than you, some longer than you have been alive, which doesn't seem very charitable.  So just relax a bit and make your points without all the judgmentalism. Thanks.

Anastasios
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« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2006, 04:44:07 PM »

Conditional  love amusgst Christians...now ive really heard the dark side of Christianity Undecided
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« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2006, 04:45:57 PM »

I'm not going to answer for Anastasios, but, according only to the logic of your statement (which has become quite a popular one), we are emphatically unable to say anything about the RCC's status and grace. Thus, we can't say: "The RCC has NO grace." But we also can't say: "The RCC definitely has grace!" (The latter statement was made by our self-described "over-opinionated" newbie, and it is this, the positive and affirmative statement, that Anastasios reacted to, asking for ecclesial documentation for such an emphatically affirmative conclusion.)

Furthermore, I don't think we often think about the implications even of this supposedly inclusive way of thinking ("We know where grace is, but not if it's somewhere else"). For example, according to the simple logic of the principle, if someone asked: "Do you confess that the RCC has grace? Yes or no." One would HAVE to answer, "No." Because one certainly couldn't confess the affirmative if one doesn't know one way or the other!

True, but by not confessing a belief that the RCC has Grace, you wouldn't automatically be saying that it definitely hasn't got it.  But even so, I'm not sure that logics and precision are the most important thing here...don't we Orthodox often speak of the dangers of an overemphasis on rational logic?  (I just finished reading Fr. Seraphim Rose's biography, and the concept of "Orthodoxy of the heart" is still fresh in my mind).  However, I understand your point.  I think we run into error when we take the Church's statement about heretics having no Grace and make it a universal thing with no exceptions.  Doubtless we can say that as a rule, the Catholics lack the Mysteries.  I'm not sure that God wouldn't bestow them upon a particularly holy parish, should one be found.

I would just ask the question, how does it benefit RC souls to proclaim that their Church is Graceless?  I wonder if it isn't often a better practice to let others more qualified make such pronouncements, like hierarchs.  I think of certain Saints who would not judge a man as sinning, even if it was openly obvious, in order to guard their own souls from pride and not damage that of the sinner as well.

Finally, I would also take into consideration how many Catholics are actually voluntary heretics/schismatics.  But the answer to that, by now, is probably all or the vast majority, since we're speaking of the Grace of Mysteries rather than individual or charismatic Grace, as Anastasios put it.  It may be true that Catholics are Graceless, but the way I see it, it's more important that we are not.

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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2006, 05:02:12 PM »

actually Anastasios i would say that you yoursef are agressive as well...ive been reading your posts for awhile too and and whilst in many circustances I agree with you in many I do not...History tell a diffent story than the one BOTH Orthodox and Catholics tell...I have found that the Truth lies in the middle of two extremes i.e. there is Hisotrical evidence for the papacy (just not the legalist Catholic version of it) and so on...my Journy into Orthodoxy is has been 5 years in the making...after consultaion with many Priests (both Roman and Orthodox) and I feel im making the right decision...the only thing i dont like is the extremism within Orthodoxy...an extremism which 2day is unfounded... all i can say is thank God we have Good People on both side of the divide working for unity...People like Athenagoras,Bartholomew, JPII, and Benedict...whos example we should follow rather than stick on some outdated Ideology and superiority complex than hinders union
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2006, 05:08:54 PM »

Athenagoras,Bartholomew, JPII, and Benedict

ptui!!!
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« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2006, 05:24:13 PM »

RI,
In case you've been lurking for a while, you may have figured out that sdcheung likes being snarky just like you seem to be.  Again, welcome, but try not to get out of hand.

Additionally, this "no love" accusation you (and others here) have dished out has absolutely no basis.  You're talking about anonymous people on an internet message board and are dealing ONLY with the written word on a casual basis.
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« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2006, 05:43:35 PM »

My question is:

Don't priests screen for this stuff prior to receiving them into the Church???
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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2006, 05:45:07 PM »

Thank God my Preist shares at least some of my opinions
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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2006, 05:46:22 PM »

Thank God my Preist shares at least some of my opinions

Maybe they should administer a spelling test first...
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2006, 05:52:32 PM »

well Robert with comments like that it no wonder why i think alot of Orthodox are bigots...thanx for pointing out and im a bad speller, and thanx also for pointing out how unchristian so called "Christians" can be.
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2006, 05:57:57 PM »

actually Anastasios i would say that you yoursef are agressive as well...ive been reading your posts for awhile too and and whilst in many circustances I agree with you in many I do not...History tell a diffent story than the one BOTH Orthodox and Catholics tell...I have found that the Truth lies in the middle of two extremes i.e. there is Hisotrical evidence for the papacy (just not the legalist Catholic version of it) and so on...my Journy into Orthodoxy is has been 5 years in the making...after consultaion with many Priests (both Roman and Orthodox) and I feel im making the right decision...the only thing i dont like is the extremism within Orthodoxy...an extremism which 2day is unfounded... all i can say is thank God we have Good People on both side of the divide working for unity...People like Athenagoras,Bartholomew, JPII, and Benedict...whos example we should follow rather than stick on some outdated Ideology and superiority complex than hinders union

Anastasios aggressive? LOL, he may be a bit extremist in his posistions, but he hardly aggressive. I've only been able to draw him into a debate on a few occasions since I've been here. The fact of the matter is that you have been inconsiderate and offensive (especially considering the fact that this is your first post). And you're delibrately trying to prod people into reacting strongly...don't get me wrong, I do that at times too, but you can hardly get on the other people when they are offended by offensive comments.

Personally, I agree with the assessment that the Latin Church has grace in their Sacraments, but with that said, I think you fail to grasp the history of the relationship between Old and New Rome, after the Capital was moved Old Rome became a provincial backwater, Old Rome lost all influence and authority and maintained only administrative honour, which was given more out of respect for the Empire and the Caesars of old, than because of anything, past or present, relating to the ecclesiastical activities of the City. A city that has been graced by the Senate, and by Emperors from Augustus to Constantine, must be given respect for that reason alone. However, the centre of both power and authority from the time of the Council of Chalcedon was Constantinople (and even then, the real dispute was between Constantinople and Alexandria, Rome wasn't even in the running), Rome was allowed to maintain influence within her boarders, which were adjusted from time to time as Constantinople saw fit, but her influence beyond her direct jurisdiction was nominal at best. To get a grasp of this ecclesiology I would strongly recommend Met. Maximos of Sardis' The Oecumenical Patriarchate in the Orthodox Church.

Concerning purgatory, scholastic thought, original sin, etc. These theologies are simply absurd and, generally speaking, disgusting...but they're sufficiently insignificant that they should not be a major issue.
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« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2006, 06:00:33 PM »

well Robert with comments like that it no wonder why i think alot of Orthodox are bigots...thanx for pointing out and im a bad speller, and thanx also for pointing out how unchristian so called "Christians" can be.

RI,
Do you not have a lot of experience with internet message boards?  Proper protocol is to be polite and friendly and ease your way onto the board, just as you would as a guest in someone's house.  Anastasios and Robert are administrators.  This board runs by their time & energy (and I think $$$) as well.  Try a be appreciative and not get defensive.
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« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2006, 06:12:11 PM »

Alright, just as the moderator, names are being tossed around here and accusations from everybody.  So, please keep your cool . . . . and everyone sit in the corner for five minutes and think about what you've done.  Wink

Seriously, though, to give a general warning. please keep name calling, accusations, someone's orthodoxy, etc. to a minimum. 
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« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2006, 06:12:33 PM »

Proper protocol is to be polite and friendly and ease your way onto the board??? sure and attcking someones spelling is polite and friendly is it?

Im actually also a gust and amember at other message boards both Roman and Eastern Catholic....and the Orthodox who post their are so rude its not funny...trust me im nothing compared to some of the Posts Orthodox deliver to Catholic message boards....the is one diffence however...Catjolics dont feel the need to ceneror what an Orthodox perosn says (unless its really bad) howver it quiet clear that orthodox get offened from the smallest things...yet they dont seem to mind offending other...It wont chage my decison to join Orthoodxy...but all i can say is thank God my future parish, and Preist are more open minded than this
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« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2006, 06:16:09 PM »

based on the responces, I can see we have a long way to go...

Its amazing that  for all the talk done people danced around the issue  (or the charge) that Catholics held alot of these "false belifes" ie Purgortory, way before the great schism yet somehow it didnt mangage to void their mysteries then...yet now in the present age it does...Im sure your all great Churchmen...but appauling Christains im afraid.

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RI,
I think you should also understand that these were issues.  It's kind of like when you have a girlfriend and finally break up.  It may be for a single reason or two, but later you start realizing all the little things that annoyed you and were wrong with her, and then you realize that she was the wrong person.  Once those annoyences come out in the open, something must be resolved between the two of your, if you wish for something to be recreated.  It is the same thing with Rome and the Orthodox Church.  They were issues, but many of them were looked beyond while we were together.  Once apart, and we admitted that there was a elephant in the empire and church, we all started talking about it.  Even though, such things may have not been fully discussed then, they exist now and must be dealt with.  We cannot sacrifice our beliefs and stances for the sake of unity with Rome.  They need to change.
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« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2006, 06:18:03 PM »

Just FYI, I should say that I've been on some Catholic, Protestant, feel in the blank boards where they were just as rude.  You'll find that in anyone, and I guarrentee you that it is not an issue solely plaguing Orthodoxy.  It just depends on how unlucky one is to encounter such people.
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« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2006, 06:23:58 PM »

Proper protocol is to be polite and friendly and ease your way onto the board??? sure and attcking someones spelling is polite and friendly is it?

Im actually also a gust and amember at other message boards both Roman and Eastern Catholic....and the Orthodox who post their are so rude its not funny...trust me im nothing compared to some of the Posts Orthodox deliver to Catholic message boards....the is one diffence however...Catjolics dont feel the need to ceneror what an Orthodox perosn says (unless its really bad) howver it quiet clear that orthodox get offened from the smallest things...yet they dont seem to mind offending other...It wont chage my decison to join Orthoodxy...but all i can say is thank God my future parish, and Preist are more open minded than this

First of all, many boards maintained by the Latins are amongst the worst for censorship on the internet. Secondly, who here has censored you? I used to have complaints about censorship, but now that we have the private boards those are non-issues.
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« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2006, 06:36:32 PM »

dantxny thank you for your post...I actually think that may been the polistest post yet and the one actually lead to real dialoge...I do agreeb there are most definatly diffences that need to be resloved between Rome and Constainople that goes without doubt....some big ones...I just feel we shouldnt write eachothers Sacred Mysteries off as void because of them...Im by no means advocating that we should partake of eacother chalices b4 we sort our differnces...i just dont think its right we call into question eachothers valiadity as having grace...I would never call into question the validity of Coptic Church becuse of the dual nature vs one nature controversy (even though i dont personaly agree with the coptic churchs chritological position) and by the same token i really feel Orthodox and catholics shouldnt write eachother off as well.

and i know ive bought this up b4...but limited forms of intercommunion have existed between Catholic and Orthodox after the great schism (manily in places where Latin and Byzantine's have been living togehter) but also during the Fall of Byzantium...I think a shame to be so legalist about it...cause it evident from the fall of Byzantium that we can put aside what divides us and come together and even commune togehter
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« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2006, 06:39:10 PM »

Romanum Imperium,
Interesting name for a convert who is leaving Rome for Constantinople-
Anyways,
Congratulations on your conversion to the Church founded by Jesus Christ through His appointed Apostles to the world! It is a blessing to know that another person has entered into the Truth. May the Holy Spirit guide you on your Spiritual Journey into His fulness.

There seems to be some issues which seem to not be resolved by way of where you are coming from which is Roman Catholicism. There was also a statement regarding your Priest in the Greek Orthodox Church accepting Roman Catholic positions as valid Orthodox positions.

My greatest suggestion is to seek out a Spiritual Father, one which is preferably a Monk. I am not familiar with the monasteries in Australia, which is where you hail from, but if there are any near you or a trip away from you, please seek it out and bring every thought with you. Find one there who can see your sol; look you straight through the eyes; can know your spirit and tell you what you do not want to hear but need to hear it. This will be the one who will point you directly to Heaven and be your Spiritual Father. Excess baggage from our former faith make for a stumbling block in the Truth. Seek the Ascetics and not the Scholars.

I pray that your love for Orthodoxy grows more and more each day. There is truth here. There is the Fulness of The One Who Is that envelopes His Church completely. May the Lord bless you and keep you in His grace!

Kyrie Eleison,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2006, 06:42:57 PM »

Panagiotis thank you for your support and kind words..they are much appricated.
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« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2006, 06:48:02 PM »

oh and Panagiotis, I choise my name "Romanum Imperium" not in refence to the watern half of the Empire but rather to both Halfs of the Empire both Western and Eastern...and my chosen picture too is a Byzantine Moasic created by Greeks but commisioned by normams in scilily...another symobol of my Hope that one day we can all work togehter
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« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2006, 06:57:25 PM »

Welcome RI. Always nice to see a fellow Australian online.
My greatest suggestion is to seek out a Spiritual Father, one which is preferably a Monk. I am not familiar with the monasteries in Australia, which is where you hail from, but if there are any near you or a trip away from you, please seek it out and bring every thought with you
I'm not sure which diocese you are being received into, but the Greek Archdiocese of Australia always assigns a Spiritual Father to each catechumen, and if you are in Sydney, it is most often Fr. Leslie in Leichardt, and he certainly would not share your opinion. I strongly suggest this is an issue you need to bring up with your Spiritual Father prior to Chrisimation, rather than discuss it on a public internet forum.
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« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2006, 07:11:01 PM »

thank yo ozgeorge...i have already discused it with my Spiritual Father...I dont know how much of my opinions he shares...but he has said that he perosnaly believes in Grace within the Catholic Church...and whilst he strongly recomends that i dont partake of the Catholic Communion...as we are not in full communion...he certinly sees nothing wrong with my beliefs that the sacremtns in the RCC are valid...hes even recomened that for my relalitives who have passed away i ask a Catholc priest to offer the Mass up for them...and I should attend...just not to take communion until such time (if any) that Orthodoxy and Catholism establish some form of intercommunion.
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« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2006, 07:13:33 PM »

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, at least in the Chicago district does not assign a Spiritual Father during the Catechism/ation period. We are on our own, for a lack of a better term.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2006, 07:34:45 PM »

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, at least in the Chicago district does not assign a Spiritual Father during the Catechism/ation period. We are on our own, for a lack of a better term.
Those poor sausages! "Throw 'em in and see if they sink or swim!" Cheesy
But seriously, who then decides when a catechumen is ready to be recieved into the Church? Here in Australia, an adult catechumen cannot be received unless their Spiritual Father confirms that they are ready to the Archbishop.
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« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2006, 07:41:51 PM »

to greekischristian: Im sorry if u think i waz being rude....but in one of the first replies I recieved i waz called a "Blaspheming Relativistic Ecumenist" name calling like that doesnt go down well with me...for nothing else than expressing my opinion...so I doubt very much that I stared the rudeness
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« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2006, 07:43:43 PM »

The Priest usually makes the decision, or a Deacon if one is blessed to have one in their small Parish. As big as the Greek Orthodox Church in the US is, we have extremely few Priests and way too many tiny parishes made up of small cells across the country. My particular parish is made up of maybe 20 families and one priest, no deacon and a reader who is there maybe 50% of the time.

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2006, 08:10:11 PM »

I can see some merit in that in terms of convenience, but it seems to be a terrible burden to place on a Priest or Deacon who is not an experienced Spiritual Father. Over here, there are very few Priests who are blessed by the Archbishop to hear Confession and act as Spiritual Fathers- in fact, on the entire East Coast of Australia, there are only ten. It's less convenient in that people may have to travel hundreds of miles to Confess or in the case of remote communities, wait till a Spiritual Father visits annually (during Lent), but it does mean that they get an experienced Spiritual Father. Of course, in the case of emergency where there is a danger of death, any priest can hear Confession and receive anyone into the Church.
The Cathedral of the Archdiocese in Sydney has a Seminary attached, and people from more remote parts of the State have been accomodated there to undertake part of the Catechumenate (which includes a ten week study course here). It's a big commitment to ask from Catechumens, but then, so is membership of the Church. It is a very gruelling process, but it means that no one is admitted for the wrong reasons (eg, just to keep a future father/mother-in-law happy rather than a sincere, personally-owned desire to enter the Church).
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« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2006, 08:54:11 PM »

That sounds wonderful! Its an incredible concept which would take care of alot of problems we have here in the Church in America. One of which is "just to keep a future father/mother-in-law happy rather than a sincere, personally-owned desire to enter the Church". But by our Lord's graces, people are blessed by entering the Church even if laity like me feel otherwise. But thankfully I am not the one in charge. Otherwise, i would run things mafioso style. LOL

Blessings,
Panagiotis
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