Hey there everyone, Id just like to Introduce myself to the forumÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦Well I live in Australia and I’m being received into Orthodoxy on Saturday the 24th of this Month through Chrismation so id ask all of you for your prayers both now and for the future
In debating myself the contents of my first post on this forum (either controversial or keeping my mouth shut) I opted for the controversialÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦as I very rarely refrain from saying what I think (an advantage and a disadvantage I can assure u
I would like to say that whist I fel truly connected to Orthodoxy and I love the faith very much I must say that after reading the posts of many Orthodox People over the last few weeks as a guest I really have to say how disappointed I am in the lack of charity shown to the Roman Catholic Church, the validly of its Mysteries, and the salvation of it members.
I would at this point like to state I am currently (until the 24th) a CatholicÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦however its not my status as a Catholic (soon to be former Catholic) which determines my beliefsÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦but rather my studies into Orthodoxy and Church History that determine that the Catholic Church is grace filled and its Sacraments valid.
The Divisions between East and West are very complex and as stated in other threads go back way b4 the Schism starting in 5th century if not earlierÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦a lot of these differences which somehow(in the minds of many Orthodox) make the Catholic Church invalid today didn’t seem to make the Christian East doubt whether the Latin church was grace filled or not back in pre-schism timesÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦.Oh I know that Mutual ex-communions were banted around between Rome and Constantinople from time to timeÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦but they were always resolved and from what I can tell these ex-communications didn’t really call the validity of the Mysteries into question from either side. (aside from a possible argument between leaved and un-leaved breadÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦but even that was somewhat resolved)
I find it interesting also to note that whist the East fell into Heresy with the Icon disputeÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦one of the defenders of Orthodoxy was the Roman Pope (and this WAS in a time when Rome and Constantinople weren’t particularly friendly and whilst things like the Filoque, Purgatory and papal authority were being holy debated on both sides) the point im trying to make is these things such as papal authority, the filoque, Purgatory and debates about whether grace is created or uncreated does not mean that the Latin Church is without grace or its mysteries aren’t valid or even that Catholics are outside of the ChurchÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦after all if the Catholic church was heretical and void of grace back then (when it held a lot of the beliefs that Orthodox claim makes the Latin Church invalid today) what can we can for the Eastern Church whish accepted the Help of Latin Heretics??? See my Point.
Im not belittling the fact that orthodox and Catholic Churches need much dialogue to work out these theological issuesÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦but to call the Catholic Church without grace, void of the Holy Spirit, its mysteries invalid is complete rubbishÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦and im appalled that Orthodox Churchmen can be so uncharitable and only pick up on the Parts of History that they chooseÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦
Another example of this (which has probably been covered on another thread) is that after the great Schism and even after the sacking of Constantinople during the lasts of the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire, the Latin’s and Byzantines were able to come together and communion togetherÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦this is evident from the texts that describe to fall of Constantinople to the TurksÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦.if Latin’s were so evil and their Creed so wicked and wrong than this shared communing wouldn’t have happenedÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦.I Know that there is enough blame to go around on both sides for the SchismÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦but a lot of this is perpetuated by members of the Orthodox ChurchÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦men and women who are too prideful and arrogant and hell bent on their spin of the truth rather than listen to Christs call for Unity amongst the Apostolic Churches.
One thing that has always bothered me about both Churches (but mainly with Orthodoxy) is that one minute in their apologetics they’re saying they’re proud of the fact that Christianity assimilated their own native cultures i.e. Parts or Greek Philosophy helped Christians to Understand the Logos/uncreated energyÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦.yet by the same token they don’t like the fact when Christianity came to Rome the Christians there put Christianity in a Roman frame work or Roman Philosophical understandingÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦ultimately in regards to thing like whether Grace is Uncreated or Created is untimely not important what’s really important is the if both half’s of the church are RECEIVING that GraceÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦its like a mathematical formula:
Latin’s use 1 + 1= 2
Byzantine’s use 3 -1 = 2
The Answer is the same its just the working out that differs between the churches.
It’s the same with the Purgatory debate Catholics believe after they die they are in a sate called Purgatory in which they’re purified before entering heavenÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦and that they can be helped the prayers and masses said for them on EarthÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦
Orthodox on the other hand claim that after death they assigned a place either closer to haven or hell until the last judgment and those we can help improve the condition of the souls by offering prayers and Divine Liturgies for them on EarthÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦
Once again lots of people, both Catholics and Orthodox are so busy focused on different cultural and philosophical Interruptions on where we go after Death and they’ve missed the Point: that both Catholic and Orthodox both believe in Praying for the dead and that these prayers are beneficial for those souls and will aid them at the Last judgment.
I realise that this is simplistic on my part and doesn’t apply to such things such as the Filoque, Papal Supremacy and other disputesÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦.but I see way to much on there about what divines us and not enough on what united usÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦and then the extremism of some Orthodox (and catholic people, but I haven’t encountered many of them) who say that each others mysteries, priesthoods and so on are invalidÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦.its just not the caseÃƒÆ’Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚Â¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â¦all u have to do is look at the limited intercommunion that existed between the two church’s after the schism and crusades.
Saying all that though Im Glad im Becoming Orthodox but I NEVER will call into question the validly of the Roman Church and I pray for the day when we all may be one and we are all brought into a united fold.
I just hope it won’t take a cataclysmic event like the Fall of Constrainable for us all to realise how petty our bickering really is.