Author Topic: Since when is God our Mother and Native American mythology, Holy Scripture?  (Read 5935 times)

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Offline Matthew777

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I slept in this morning too much to attend liturgy and like I've usually done on such occasions, I waited until later in the day to attend Catholic mass. In the beginning of the mass, the presiding priest referred to God as "Abba" and explained that "Abba" means either mother or father, suggesting that God is somehow both male and female. In the homily, he used a Native American creation myth as the basis of his message, rather than Scripture and Church tradition. In the middle of this display, I felt that I didn't belong there. Right or wrong, I walked out. Now, I'm wondering whether it was God telling me that this is where I shouldn't be or the evil one trying to keep me from receiving the Eucharist.
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Offline Sloga

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Where was this?  :o
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Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Now, I'm wondering whether it was God telling me that this is where I shouldn't be or the evil one trying to keep me from receiving the Eucharist.

Neither. I'd say it's more likely that you were just using common sense by refusing to listen to the opinions of one misguided priest.
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Offline falafel333

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Just to play the devil's advocate, what's wrong really with calling God our mother...God is an asexual being and is often described with both feminine and masculine types and symbolisms in scripture...To my knowledge certain saints also refer to God in the feminine form...

Perhaps, the masculine pronoun dominated due to the worship of fertility godesses of ancient times and the cultic practises associated with this worship not to mention the status of women within society and also the gnostic sects and religious movements in general which viewed women not too favourably...

Offline Matthew777

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Where was this?ÂÂ  :o

St. Aloysius at Gonzaga University, which is becoming more and more "new age" than most Catholic parishes, perhaps because of it being a Jesuit parish.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 12:44:53 AM by Matthew777 »
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Offline Sloga

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St. Aloysius at Gonzaga University, which is becoming more and more "new age" than most Catholic parishes, perhaps because of it being a Jesuit parish.

To be honest I'm not surprised then...I was in a Jesuit parish in Croatia (didnt even know they existed), I left wondering if perhaps I had discovered some new religion  ::)

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Just to play the devil's advocate, what's wrong really with calling God our mother...God is an asexual being and is often described with both feminine and masculine types and symbolisms in scripture...To my knowledge certain saints also refer to God in the feminine form...

Ok, I can buy that. But what about this...
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he used a Native American creation myth as the basis of his message, rather than Scripture and Church tradition.

Never heard of that one before
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Now, I'm wondering whether it was God telling me that this is where I shouldn't be


God already told you this through the canons of His Church which dictate that you cannot receive the Eucharist at a church in schism. You apparently don't want to listen.
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Offline Matthew777

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His point was that, like in the myth, God sang us into existence and therefore, every human is a unique song of God.
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Offline FrChris

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God already told you this through the canons of His Church which dictate that you cannot receive the Eucharist at a church in schism. You apparently don't want to listen.

I'm glad to see that someone brought this up as well.

Matthew, does your parish priest know of your 'habit' when you sleep in?
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline Matthew777

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Matthew, does your parish priest know of your 'habit' when you sleep in?

Yes, he does know that I sometimes attend Catholic mass. We both happen to be Catholic converts to the Orthodox faith, and he tends to be rather ecumenical.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 01:56:12 AM by Matthew777 »
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Offline FrChris

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and he tends to be rather ecumenical.

That must be the understatement of the year  :-\
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline Matthew777

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He recognizes the flaws of the Roman Church but nonetheless considers it Apostolic.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 01:43:38 AM by Matthew777 »
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Offline FrChris

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He recognizes that flaws of the Roman Church but nonetheless considers it apostolic.

Must be great to be able to pick and choose among Apostolic teachings, Councils of the Church, etc.!
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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He recognizes the flaws of the Roman Church but nonetheless considers it Apostolic.

Your priest does not have the authority to make such a call; he especially lacks the authority to then define the implications of such a call (i.e. that one may hence partake of the Eucharist in an RC parish) in opposition to the Tradition of the Church. Is your Bishop aware of what is happening (be honest)?

That must be the understatement of the yearÂÂ  :-\

I agree. The 'e' word has to be one of the most abused words of today's vocabulary.

Matthew,

If you want a prime example of an Orthodox Ecumenist who understood Ecumenism within the boundaries of Orthodox Tradition, look to none other than His Grace the late Paulos Mar Gregorios. In his works, he makes it clear that honest and Orthodox Ecumenism does not allow for any notion of "Eucharistic hospitality", whether exercised by The Church, or received by members of The Church from other Churches so exercising such a concept; a concept which simply makes no sense within the framework of Orthodox Eucharistic Theology and Ecclesiology.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 02:09:28 AM by EkhristosAnesti »
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Offline Matthew777

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Your priest does not have the authority to make such a call; he especially lacks the authority to then define the implications of such a call

All of his children have been through the Catholic school system, on special scholarship for him being an Orthodox priest. They've attended Catholic mass with their father's approval.
As for Bishop Makarios, I'd assume that he'd share similar opinions regarding the Roman Church's status as Apostolic. None of this is especially scandalous, even though the Roman Church can be rather silly sometimes.
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Offline Matthew777

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There's a difference between having Christ, which Catholics do have, and being theologically and liturgically correct, what Catholics aren't. Today, it was the last straw, and I don't plan on attending a Novas Ordo mass again, unless if with family members.
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Offline falafel333

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What exactly was wrong in the theology?

Offline Matthew777

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What exactly was wrong in the theology?

That God is a hermaphrodite or that Native American theology is on par with Holy Scripture?
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Offline falafel333

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It seems that the clergyman could simply have been drawing a contemplative analogy from within the context of the native people of the land rather than drawing some form of definitive dogmatic conclusion...

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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As for Bishop Makarios, I'd assume

Do not assume anything.

Please PM me his contact details.

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None of this is especially scandalous

Anything that opposes the Tradition of the Church is scandalous.

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There's a difference between having Christ, which Catholics do have, and being theologically and liturgically correct, what Catholics aren't.

I assume that by “having Christ” you mean the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, which is generally contingent upon (albeit not exclusively) theological/liturgical correctness.

Matthew, listen to me; don’t try and make excuses or draw justifications for what you have done. You don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. Please discuss this issue directly with your Bishop.
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Offline Sarah

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Do you actually take communion at the Roman Catholic church when you attend?  :o  BIG no-no!  Attending a Mass and going to a Catholic school are not so much a problem [I went to a Catholic school for 5 years and attended Mass during school hours, but I crossed myself the Orthodox way and DID NOT take communion].  However, communing in a church which is not Orthodox is seriously damaging to your soul!

« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 07:15:23 AM by Sarah »

Offline JoeS

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Just to play the devil's advocate, what's wrong really with calling God our mother...God is an asexual being and is often described with both feminine and masculine types and symbolisms in scripture...To my knowledge certain saints also refer to God in the feminine form...

Perhaps, the masculine pronoun dominated due to the worship of fertility godesses of ancient times and the cultic practises associated with this worship not to mention the status of women within society and also the gnostic sects and religious movements in general which viewed women not too favourably...

Are you saying that Christ when referring to His "Father" in Heaven that this was only a metaphor? ???


Offline JoeS

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Do you actually take communion at the Roman Catholic church when you attend?ÂÂ  :oÂÂ  BIG no-no!ÂÂ  Attending a Mass and going to a Catholic school are not so much a problem [I went to a Catholic school for 5 years and attended Mass during school hours, but I crossed myself the Orthodox way and DID NOT take communion].ÂÂ  However, communing in a church which is not Orthodox is seriously damaging to your soul!



Communing in a non-Orthodox church is also a form of self excommunication.

 :-\
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 08:07:25 AM by JoeS »

Offline Sarah

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Communing in a non-Orthodox church is also a form of self excommunication.

 :-\

That too.

I really am shocked that this priest would be OK with this, not to mention he seems to be endorsing this.  To be honest, I'm shocked at this thread!  Other churches are NOT interchangeable with the Orthodox Church.

Offline pensateomnia

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Communing in a non-Orthodox church is also a form of self excommunication.

 :-\

Indeed. I seem to remember that Matthew777 is a communicant in a Coptic Church. (Is that right?). If so, he might not consider this so authoritative, but, according to the officially adopted and long-upheld SCOBA regulations for ecumenical activity, Orthodox Christians cannot receive the Eucharist at Churches outside of the Eastern Orthodox communion (hence, why it's called the Orthodox communion of Churches, no?). In fact, the regulations don't allow clergy to participate in non-Orthodox Eucharistic assemblies or even to vest for ecumenical prayer services. And that's from a "modernist" group of Bishops!
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Offline pensateomnia

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I really am shocked that this priest would be OK with this, not to mention he seems to be endorsing this.  To be honest, I'm shocked at this thread!  Other churches are NOT interchangeable with the Orthodox Church.

Something Fr. Seraphim Rose, whom Matthew777 has often quoted and extolled, emphasized more than many Orthodox Christians!
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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I seem to remember that Matthew777 is a communicant in a Coptic Church. (Is that right?).

He is a convert to the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church (a Church in Communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church).

The priest who overlooked his catechumenate obviously failed in his responsibility. Matthew is evidently one of those “let’s convert to the Church but never take its teachings seriously” kind of kids.

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If so, he might not consider this so authoritative

Not authoritative, but certainly reflective of Oriental Orthodox thought. In my previous post I referred Matthew777 to one of the most prominent Bishops and scholars of the Syrian Orthodox Church, His Grace Paulos Mar Gregorios, whose Eucharistic Theology and Ecclesiology certainly opposes the practise of communing with Churches not in communion with the Oriental Orthodox Church. Here is an excerpt from his article on the issue of so-called “Eucharistic hospitality”:

"The Eucharist, as the Orthodox understand it, is the Sacrifice of Thanksgiving offered unto God, by the Church, in Christ, on behalf of the whole creation. Since the Church is offering The Eucharist to God, the question of hospitality does not arise. As far as offering communion to those who are not in communion, we do not think of the Eucharist as a kind of feast for the invited, to which the Church can hospitably invite some more people. It is the Church which offers itself to God through the bread and the wine, and God in turn offers Himself to us through the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no hospitality question in administering the holy mysteries of the Church which the West calls sacraments.

The question of hospitality does not arise anywhere in that process. The Church is not with-holding something from other people, which it then gives to them in a gust of hospitality....

The Orthodox have a principle of oikonomia or economy, which permits the canonical authorities to make exceptions to rules where such exception becomes pastorally necessary. But neither the term inter-communion nor the expression eucharistic hospitality make any theological sense to the Orthodox. In its place the Orthodox would use the terms Communion and Economy, which for them make better theological sense."


Though the above quote relates specifically to the idea of serving the Eucharist to those not in Communion with the Orthodox Church, I think the implications of this with respect to conversely receiving the Eucharist from other churches, are quite clear.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 09:28:05 AM by EkhristosAnesti »
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Offline Matthew777

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Anything that opposes the Tradition of the Church is scandalous.

My priest knows that on special occasions, I attend Catholic mass with my family. If I weren't supposed to receive communion while at a Catholic mass, I'd hope that he would tell me.
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Offline Matthew777

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My point in starting this thread is that, though I do not judge individual Catholics, I've finally lost all attachments to the Catholic faith that were conditioned into me in childhood.
This particular mass is just one example of how far off the Roman Church is from ever being reconciled to Orthodoxy, due to its breaking from not only Apostolic Tradition but the clear teaching of Scripture.
I did not leave the Catholic Church behind, the Catholic Church left me behind.

Peace.
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Offline Myrrh

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Are you saying that Christ when referring to His "Father" in Heaven that this was only a metaphor? ???



His Mother was in Earth.

Offline Mother Anastasia

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My point in starting this thread is that, though I do not judge individual Catholics, I've finally lost all attachments to the Catholic faith that were conditioned into me in childhood.
This particular mass is just one example of how far off the Roman Church is from ever being reconciled to Orthodoxy, due to its breaking from not only Apostolic Tradition but the clear teaching of Scripture.
I did not leave the Catholic Church behind, the Catholic Church left me behind.

Dear Matthew,

I don't believe it is fair to judge all Catholic clergy based on your experience in one Mass. (Please understand, I am not encouraging you to return to Mass.) 

If you were to watch EWTN, (Mother Angelica's station) and observe the conventual Mass and listen to the homilies, you would have the understanding to make a more balanced judgement.  There is adherence to the Scriptures in the authentic Catholic Church, there are true Catholics and then there are those who have departed from authentic Catholicism but say that they are the Catholic Church.

I believe  we are in the early stages of a great shaking in all the institutionalized churches, those who have said  one thing and practiced another will be exposed, apostasy and worldliness will over run personal holiness and a living out of the gospels. 

But there will be a remnant that is orthodox in belief and practice, in the RC, and EO, and we will know one another by the Spirit.

I believe it is wise to know one another by the spirit, to form strong convictions in recognizing error, no matter who is teaching it, which you have done.

But may I say, that in your life there is nothing more important than the practice of your faith.  From this practice pour forth all the graces necessary to lead a life pleasing to God, strengthening in adversity,  and filled with His blessings,  a good wife included.  Please consider making Saturday night a preparation for Sunday morning, even if it means finding another job, or saying "no" to promising invitations.  God will honor your faithfulness in ways you could never in this moment imagine. 

I would have to agree with you that,  I did not leave the Catholic Church behind, the (pseudo) Catholic Church left me behind.  But I also hold out the hope that  Christ is reforming His Bride, and will bring her to Himself without spot, wrinkle or blemish.

May He bless you in your faithfulness,

Mother Anastasia



I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, so that they may all be one, as You, Father are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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If I weren't supposed to receive communion while at a Catholic mass, I'd hope that he would tell me.

I’m telling you that he is misguided if he is consciously condoning your actions. This judgment is based on standard Orthodox Tradition and Praxis; it is not of my own individual reasoning or private speculation. If I were you, I would consult the Bishop of your diocese directly regarding the matter.

Does your parish or diocese have a website? If so, please PM it to me.
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Offline Matthew777

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If you were to watch EWTN, (Mother Angelica's station) and observe the conventual Mass and listen to the homilies, you would have the understanding to make a more balanced judgement.ÂÂ  

I watch EWTN on a regular basis, Sunday Night Live with Father Groschel happens to be one of my favorite television shows. Traditional Catholicism is not only a minority within American Catholics but is considered to be a fringe group by the majority. Mother Angelica, in starting EWTN, was originally provided with no real support. It's miraculous that her station has been successful, she is the voice of one crying in the wilderness.

Peace.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Matthew777,

How do you reconcile your reception of communion in an RC church with your frequent quotes of Fr. Seraphim Rose and your frequently stated admiration of both Fr. Seraphim and of ROCOR traditionalism?  This is just too inconsistent to make any sense to me.


EkhristosAnesti,

Is it really any of your business to intervene in the affairs of Matthew's diocese based solely on what that one poster on this forum has shared with us?
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Offline Matthew777

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How do you reconcile your reception of communion in an RC church with your frequent quotes of Fr. Seraphim Rose and your frequently stated admiration of both Fr. Seraphim and of ROCOR traditionalism?ÂÂ  

Hope that the Catholic Church will somehow, someday be able to change, hope which I really no longer have.
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Is it really any of your business to intervene in the affairs of


1) I inquire before I intervene.
2) As a member of that body of Christ, yes it is my business.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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1) I inquire before I intervene.
2) As a member of that body of Christ, yes it is my business.
So I often thought before I got my nose swatted many times by those in authority.  I ask you again, wouldn't you do better to repent of your own sins rather than inquire into the sins of others?  Misguided zeal can be very dangerous.
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Offline EkhristosAnesti

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So I often thought before I got my nose swatted many times by those in authority.


The underlying presumptions behind the intended point of the above comment, are that a) whatever I have in mind does not itself involve other authorities, and b) that I am seeking to undermine or provoke authorities.

It is best not to presume anything. This is not your concern.

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I ask you again, wouldn't you do better to repent of your own sins rather than inquire into the sins of others?


First of all, Peter, my sins are my business. Second of all, I am not concerned for the sins of others; I am not out to point fingers at anyone. My concern is on an entirely different level, and I do not feel the need to spell it out, because frankly speaking, I see no reason why I have to defend myself here. Third of all, if you feel the need to direct further personal comments on this issue towards me, I’d appreciate that you PM me.

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Misguided zeal can be very dangerous.

Presuming and consequently misinterpreting agendas and motives can be very silly.
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Offline Mother Anastasia

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Matthew777,How do you reconcile your reception of communion in an RC church with your frequent quotes of Fr. Seraphim Rose and your frequently stated admiration of both Fr. Seraphim and of ROCOR traditionalism? 

I would reconcile it by saying that the young man has discernment, and the ability to reason.

If we teach people to discern they will follow the Lord, even when the leaders are in serious error.
But if we teach them to lay down with everything the leaders say, and just accept it, even when it goes against their conscience,  they will become dead and lifeless.

In Taos, right now, I  can think of about three Orthodox souls who do not receive communion except perhaps on Easter, when they can get to Sante Fe,  because of the way they have been taught. 

One may argue that "communing in a church which is not Orthodox is seriously damaging to your soul!"  but not communing at all, is much more damaging.

"The Orthodox have a principle of oikonomia or economy, which permits the canonical authorities to make exceptions to rules where such exception becomes pastorally necessary."

I would not fault him for putting reception of the Lord before the canons, obviously he has made a distinction discerning what is precious and necessary to his soul, while rejecting questionable teachings.  He may very well be a part of the next generation of believers who will bring about unity in Christ's church.
I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word, so that they may all be one, as You, Father are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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If we teach people to discern they will follow the Lord

Huh? Are you a Protestant?

If we teach people to discern, they will follow the Church established by the authority of the Lord.

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even when the leaders are in serious error.

This issue does not concern the private opinion of one "leader", but rather the Tradition of the Church; her Ecclesiology and Eucharistic Theology.

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One may argue that "communing in a church which is not Orthodox is seriously damaging to your soul!"  but not communing at all, is much more damaging.

I beg to differ.

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discerning what is precious and necessary to his soul

That is what the canons are for.

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while rejecting questionable teachings

The Dogmatic Tradition of the Church is unquestionable.

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He may very well be a part of the next generation of believers who will bring about unity in Christ's church.

Is that a joke?
No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

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Offline Matthew777

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Please, please, let's all calm down. We agree that I should no longer be receiving Catholic communion, even if for different reasons.
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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The underlying presumptions behind the intended point of the above comment, are that a) whatever I have in mind does not itself involve other authorities, and b) that I am seeking to undermine or provoke authorities.
[facetious teasing]So you presume to know MY underlying presumptions?  How presumptuous of you.  ;)[/facetious teasing]
Not all who wander are lost.