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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Emigration  (Read 1327 times) Average Rating: 0
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authio
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« on: June 10, 2006, 01:17:14 PM »

Anyone who has read Fr. Leonid Kishkovsky's article (http://www.oca.org/News.asp?ID=1013&SID=19), please join me in considering the question:

How should/does the Orthodox Church deal with the Post-Modern, Post-Soviet Era?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2006, 05:41:06 PM by SouthSerb99 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2006, 02:09:18 PM »

Given that Orthodoxy would not be in this country without immigration, I can't see why any Orthodox Christian would oppose it.
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« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2006, 05:39:05 AM »

Given that Orthodoxy would not be in this country without immigration, I can't see why any Orthodox Christian would oppose it.
Im against it on the whole.  Look at the growing muslim population in Europe.  Indiginous populations are being swamped by foreigners all in the name of diversity and tolerance, and if you complain you're a racist.  When muslims become a majority there wont be much diversity or tolerance.  In Holland half of all new-borns are born of Muslim mothers.  If turkey joins the EU, there will be over 90 million muslims in the EU, which does not include Russia, Bosnia, Albania and other countries in Europe with a high muslim population.  This also does not include millions of unregistered illegal immigrants whose numbers cannot be accurately verified.  Wake up, the enemy is not at the gates, its within the gates.
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« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 08:30:30 AM »

As a general rule, I am a very liberal person (especially on issues race, health care and poverty), however, I think SP makes a very valid point.

Granted, take what I say with a grain of salt, as both my parents were immigrants.

The recent terrorist arrests in Canada are a prime example of what SP is talking about.  Canada has been the pinnacle of tolerance and has a EXTREMELY LIBERAL immigration policy, with a good majority of new immigrants (last 20 years or so), coming from India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. 

Without doubt, among these nations there are many fine individuals, however, there are also many with nothing but evil on their minds.

Often, many left leaning people will say something akin to this... "well the US got what it deserved because it did x, y, z (not trying to make this about the US, just needed the example)". 

However, what we learned from the recent Canadian arrests, is that it really doesn't matter what the host nation does or does not do with a good portion of Muslims.  Canada, abstained from the Iraq war and still (as a whole) does not support the war.  They have troops in Afghanistan, but they are there for "peace keeping" not fighting.

By in large, Canada has long held the tradition of "peace keeping" over policing.  It has been mixing bowl vs. melting pot and multiculturalism over assimilation.

And for what?  Where has it gotten them?  I think (realistically) it is probably only a matter of time before Canada has a terrorist attack on it soil.  I think that will be the logical consequence of a on overly liberal policy on immigration.  In fact, there are already towns in and around Toronto, which probably have a HUGE Islamic majority.  A city like Brampton (nicknamed Bramladesh) is probably 50% Muslim and growing fast.

Canada has fashioned itself as the model for tolerance and acceptance.  When the latest 19 arrested were caught with enought bomb making material to bring down the CN tower, where was their tolerance an acceptance?  In that regard, I'm inclined to agree with SP.
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« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 09:00:57 AM »

ÂÂ  A city like Brampton (nicknamed Bramladesh) is probably 50% Muslim and growing fast.

LOL..... I think its also significant to say that the school I attend (Port Credit) is one of 2 schools that has a white majority in Mississauga/Brampton/Caledon. Like honestly, whether brown, muslim, arab or whatever, it doesnt really bother me but damn it, we cant go to the third floor without gas masks now Cheesy . Also, something I have realized with muslims (especially from southern asia), is that they are more likely to be anti-social or only socialize with their own people, speaking Hindi or Urdu more often than english in the school. Its interesting, because non-muslims from India are actually much more social, especially the guys.

Anyways, my main point is that Orthodox Christians in Canada as a whole are sooo social. We are allways talking and participating in events. It would be prejudice to say all muslims were not like that, but the % is much different than of the Orthodox.

I find it something to note, I was looking through my yearbook and as usual, you have the "Islamic" club. They get their own dances and events, but Christians dont have a club.... let alone an Orthodox club.

I keep finding it disturbing that whenever we apply to have one of my cousins from Serbia come to Canada, they are ALWAYS rejected, even if we try to pull some war/refugee status thing on them, whereas the people from the middle east and pakistan just keep pouring in. Huh
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« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 09:42:56 AM »

I have to weigh in here. I have mixed feelings about immigration. My grandfather (may his memory be eternal) immigrated illegally into the USA prior to WWI. He never accepted US citizenship and planned to return to what was then Yugoslavia. However with a wife an growing family and a growing Serbian emigre population in the US it became more difficult. Then an man name Hitler came on the seen and that closed the door for good.

ANyway, I am rambling. Without immigration, legal or otherwise, there would not be Orthodoxy in North America.

My point. My grandfather, though illegal, contributed to his country, his people and his church in the USA. He paid his taxes, never was arrested, learned English, contributed to the church and was an upstanding citizen in his community. He was not alone as there were many like him from southern and eastern Europe, granted mostly all white and Christian (Orthodox and Catholic mostly).

Here's where I have mixed feling and maybe xenophobia. The new immigrants are not like this. I have no objection to keeping your own faith, but they insist on keeping their own language. Are they legal or illigal? I am sure many are seeking economic betterment. But mixed in with the good are there bad elements. I am sure there are. In my grandfather's time many immigrants came from eastenrn Eurpoe with socialist ideas and philosphies. Was this so bad.

I don't know and am thinking out loud. If there were only a better way to weed out the good from the bad and to enforce laws of immigration.  AS LONG AS THE US, CANADA, AUSTRALIA, EU, etc. are thriving economically, immigrants will seek to come to these countries. How many immigrants defect to less prosperous nations?
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« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 10:46:45 AM »

The West is (original word deleted and replaced with....) doomed.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 11:02:08 AM by chris » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2006, 12:13:15 PM »

Yeah. That's what I meant to say!  Grin
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2006, 03:39:19 PM »

I have no objection to keeping your own faith, but they insist on keeping their own language.

It would be immensely boring if all one heard on the street in the U.S. were English. I like being able to practise Spanish, Bulgarian, Romanian, Russian, etc. when I go into a store when I'm in Chicago. We need more language diversity in the U.S., not less. And instead of ranting about people retaining something that makes life good and interesting, their languages, it would be better to concentrate on the only real problem with immigration: Muslim extremism.
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2006, 04:18:59 PM »

It would be immensely boring if all one heard on the street in the U.S. were English. I like being able to practise Spanish, Bulgarian, Romanian, Russian, etc. when I go into a store when I'm in Chicago. We need more language diversity in the U.S., not less. And instead of ranting about people retaining something that makes life good and interesting, their languages, it would be better to concentrate on the only real problem with immigration: Muslim extremism.
Yea... I have romanian friends, russian friends etc... and I love to hear them speak with their family in their native tongue.I also pick up some useful phrases or sentances. I think its a non-debatable facts that the more languages you know, the better.
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2006, 04:49:25 PM »

OK

I am not against keeping your own language and using it in your ethnic neighborhood and church, etc.  But learn English to conduct business!
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« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2006, 05:27:08 PM »

My family has been here almost 300 years on the one side, only 90 on the other.  We speak English (they gave up German long ago).  I personally don't see why we can't have an official language or two, most of the countries in Europe and elsewhere do.  But heaven forbid the US should make a declaration like that because then it makes us all racist.  Having an official language doesn't mean you can't speak your own. Immigration is crucial to the contiuation of any country, but heck, if I moved to another country you can bet I'd be expected to learn at least enough of that country's language to get by.
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« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2006, 06:30:19 PM »

I personally don't see why we can't have an official language or two, most of the countries in Europe and elsewhere do.  But heaven forbid the US should make a declaration like that because then it makes us all racist.  Having an official language doesn't mean you can't speak your own.

If a language isn't official, it doesn't get state support and its speakers can't have their own schools. Without schooling in the language, the language can die. This has happened with many languages in Europe, such as Occitan, Rusyn, and (in some places) Romani. The official language laws of Europe have been used more often by the majority to kill undesirable minority languages than to ensure that all can communicate in some country-wide lingua franca. America doesn't need that.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 06:34:04 PM by CRCulver » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2006, 12:56:00 AM »

Well, no one answered my question.  I was asking about Fr. Leonid's article, and the questions it raises.

Think post-Soviet world, think post-soviet migration, think chaos in Great Britain's Orthodox world.  This raises the question: how does the Church deal with this issue, the issue of mass emigration throughout the world?  The large groups of Russians, Romanians, Serbs, etc.  It seems to me, going to a Russian (OCA 4 ever!) parish that Russians kinda transient there way.  Now, I'm big on being a sojurning Christian, but not in that way, at least not for me.

Thoughts?
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