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Author Topic: Why does Orthodoxy need an Ecumenical Patriarch?  (Read 3928 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: June 05, 2006, 06:17:36 PM »

Someone in another thread called for the EP to be moved.  That got me thinking.

What exactly does the office of EP do?  Is it even a needed role?  I'm just curious as I don't really know much about it.
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« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2006, 07:07:53 PM »

Someone in another thread called for the EP to be moved.ÂÂ  That got me thinking.

What exactly does the office of EP do?ÂÂ  Is it even a needed role?ÂÂ  I'm just curious as I don't really know much about it.

Ecumenical means "universal" (I think).  The title came from being the head Bishop of the local Church under the Emperor.  For example, there was an Ecumenical Librarian as well.  The Ecumenical Patriarch is not a "Supreme Authority" like the Pope of Rome, but called the "First Among Equals".
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2006, 11:03:11 PM »

At Present, the Ecuenical Patriarch serves as the President of the Synod (probably the worng term) of Patrirachs at meetings---in other words the first among equals.

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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2006, 11:48:32 PM »

Would the "ecumenical patriarch" still be called "ecumenical" if there's unity with Rome, assuming Rome becomes Orthodox?

God bless.

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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2006, 09:08:42 PM »

Would the "ecumenical patriarch" still be called "ecumenical" if there's unity with Rome, assuming Rome becomes Orthodox?

God bless.

Mina

Or if we become Catholic.
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2006, 10:10:21 PM »

Or if we become Catholic.

We are already Catholic.ÂÂ  Reference the Creed you reciteÂÂ  at each Divine Liturgy.

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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2006, 10:49:12 PM »

In the Indian Orthodox Church, we have the Catholicos, and I'm not certain as to how he would be compared to a Patriarch.

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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2006, 03:29:17 AM »

Would the "ecumenical patriarch" still be called "ecumenical" if there's unity with Rome, assuming Rome becomes Orthodox?



Interesting question! I would think that in that case the pope could take the tittle "ecumenical" - as the chairman in the meetings of the patriarchs. The patriarch of All the West would then be the first among the equals...
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2006, 04:18:32 AM »

Interesting question! I would think that in that case the pope could take the tittle "ecumenical" - as the chairman in the meetings of the patriarchs. The patriarch of All the West would then be the first among the equals...

Why on earth should that happen? The title Ecumenical Patriarch pre-dates the Great Schism and was always the title of the Patriarch of Constantinople and not the Pope of Rome. It does not signify that the Patriarch of Constantinople is the first among equals but rather it was given to the Patriarch by the Emperor to signify that he was the Imperial Patriarch. Why, then, would the title pass to Rome, given that there no longer is an Empire? The ranks of the Patriarchates are not dependent upon the title afforded to a given Patriarch.

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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2006, 08:37:19 AM »

Why do we even need titles??  It seems to me it's more of a head trip rather than necessary.  I hope I don't offend anyone by my statements, but I always wondered why people are against organized religion but now I think I am beginning to understand their feelings.  In the US we have how many Orthodox jurisdictions?  I thought we are one church??  How many other Christian denominations are there?? 

Some of these mega churches, although bring in the people every week, seem to me as being marketed like a new product.  I'm not comfortable with that kind of marketing for a church, but they get the Word to thousands and millions of people that way.  I find myself watching TBN often and enjoy some of the shows they present.  Am I drifting away from Orthodoxy?  I'm not quite sure.  I pray that I am not.  Am I drifting away from God?  NEVER!!  I am just wondering why there are so many Christian denominations and only one God.  The only answer I can find is that different people need different approaches, marketing if you will, to bring them to something.  If a Bishop TD Jakes' style brings them to God, good.  If a Billy Graham brings them to God, great. 

I think my point is that people need to hear the Word of God.  And although I would like to see only one church, maybe all the denominations isn't all that bad.  I recently read that there is an increase in the number of home churches where people gather in one's home for bible study and fellowship.  Many started doing that because they were tired of what they described as organized religion.  Is that wrong?  Who are we to judge.  If that brings them closer to God, why not. 

I know some of you will say that other denominations and home churches may not teach the Word correctly.  How do any of us know what is correct?  We were not there with Jesus back in the day.  Isn't all cirriculum, for any subject matter, open to the interpretation of the instructor? 

This post isn't intended to start arguments but rather my sharing of what has been on my mind lately.

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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2006, 10:06:34 AM »

Why on earth should that happen? The title Ecumenical Patriarch pre-dates the Great Schism and was always the title of the Patriarch of Constantinople and not the Pope of Rome.


Um...actually i'm pretty sure that the title was NOT "always" held by the Patriarch of Constantinople.  In fact, it was held by the pope of Rome.  Why do you think several of the Ecumenical Councils' decisions were defered to the Pope?  Just like Peter was considered first among equals so was his see. 

You know, I could be wrong, but last time I checked my church history book that was what I remember...
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2006, 10:11:36 AM »

Um...actually i'm pretty sure that the title was NOT "always" held by the Patriarch of Constantinople.ÂÂ  In fact, it was held by the pope of Rome.ÂÂ  Why do you think several of the Ecumenical Councils' decisions were defered to the Pope?ÂÂ  Just like Peter was considered first among equals so was his see.ÂÂ  

You know, I could be wrong, but last time I checked my church history book that was what I remember...

I'm pretty certain that you are misremembering, though perhaps somebody else could confirm one way or the other. My recollection is that the title of Ecumenical Patriarch was first granted to John the Faster by the Emperor and that his use of the title caused great concern to Pope St. Gregory the Great because he thought that its use was a claim to universal jurisdiction over the Church, misunderstanding Ecumenical as meaning universal rather than imperial. Just to be clear, as it appears that you might have misunderstood what I was saying, I was talking of the title Ecumenical Patriarch, not the rank of first among equals. Certainly the Pope of Rome held that rank prior to the Great Schism, but I'm as sure as I can be without someone else's input that he never had that title.

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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2006, 10:19:31 AM »

Why do we even need titles??ÂÂ  It seems to me it's more of a head trip rather than necessary.ÂÂ  I hope I don't offend anyone by my statements, but I always wondered why people are against organized religion but now I think I am beginning to understand their feelings.ÂÂ  In the US we have how many Orthodox jurisdictions?ÂÂ  I thought we are one church??ÂÂ  How many other Christian denominations are there??ÂÂ  


We need titles because that's what St. Irreneus said when he was combating the Gnostics who said that a free-for-all was better than having order.  I think we can see the wisdom of that decision. ÂÂ

Its not a head trip, and it IS necessary.  Christ had titles, were his necessary?

In the US there are roughly 5,000 denominations and around 12 Jurisdictions (Orthodox).

Quote
Some of these mega churches, although bring in the people every week, seem to me as being marketed like a new product.  I'm not comfortable with that kind of marketing for a church, but they get the Word to thousands and millions of people that way.  I find myself watching TBN often and enjoy some of the shows they present.  Am I drifting away from Orthodoxy?  I'm not quite sure.  I pray that I am not.  Am I drifting away from God?  NEVER!!  I am just wondering why there are so many Christian denominations and only one God.  The only answer I can find is that different people need different approaches, marketing if you will, to bring them to something.  If a Bishop TD Jakes' style brings them to God, good.  If a Billy Graham brings them to God, great. ÂÂ

There are so many denominations because there are so many people, all with their own ego.  God is ego-less, so therefore one.  And if Bishop Jakes and Billy Graham bring people to god, maybe its not as great as we think it is.  It can be great, but it can also be detrimental.  We're here to find God in the MOST PERFECT way, just like he saved us in the most perfect way.  Not to half-ass it.

Quote
I think my point is that people need to hear the Word of God.  And although I would like to see only one church, maybe all the denominations isn't all that bad.  I recently read that there is an increase in the number of home churches where people gather in one's home for bible study and fellowship.  Many started doing that because they were tired of what they described as organized religion.  Is that wrong?  Who are we to judge.  If that brings them closer to God, why not. ÂÂ


Is not having organized religion wrong?  Yes, it is.  Even in the ANCIENT CHURCH where there was no organization whatsoever, there was organization.  Christ ASKED us to have organization.  We had to fight heresies with organization. ÂÂ

If these Protestants are trying to go back to the Ancient Church system of meeting in houses, maybe they should look at who did that first?  It sure as heck wasn't Martin Luther. ÂÂ

We arn't here to judge.  But we sure are here to discern what is going on.  If it does bring them closer to God, you're right, why not?  But isn't there a more perfect way? You bet there is.  So why not that way? ÂÂ

Quote
I know some of you will say that other denominations and home churches may not teach the Word correctly.  How do any of us know what is correct?  We were not there with Jesus back in the day.  Isn't all cirriculum, for any subject matter, open to the interpretation of the instructor? ÂÂ

Um...we should all know what is correct.  Or at least try to learn. ÂÂ

We wern't with Jesus, but we are the continuation of people who WERE.  Protestants, of which many are mimicking heresies of old, are definately NOT a part of that.  So they know how to preach the Word correctly?  Maybe they have great points, and they do, but they don't have the fullness of the faith.  And that's what we're called for.  to be FULLY in Christ, not partially. ÂÂ

Yes it is, which is why we pray for our instructors and teachers at every liturgy.  If that isn't good enough for you, then maybe you should spend the rest of your life praying for them.  Maybe one more person might make the difference...

Quote
This post isn't intended to start arguments but rather my sharing of what has been on my mind lately.

Psalti Boy

Dude, I understand your frustration.  I get frustrated too, a lot.  I'm serbian on top of it, so that usually doesn't help.  But writing things like this is only going to START arguments.  If you really didn't want to start an argument, you should have thought about what you were writing. ÂÂ

I'm not saying don't write.  I'm really glad you're writing this stuff, cuz we all battle with this.  Just think more about what you REALLY want to say next time. ÂÂ

I'm sorry if anything I wrote ticks you off. ÂÂ  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2006, 10:25:20 AM »

I'm pretty certain that you are misremembering, though perhaps somebody else could confirm one way or the other. My recollection is that the title of Ecumenical Patriarch was first granted to John the Faster by the Emperor and that his use of the title caused great concern to Pope St. Gregory the Great because he thought that its use was a claim to universal jurisdiction over the Church, misunderstanding Ecumenical as meaning universal rather than imperial. Just to be clear, as it appears that you might have misunderstood what I was saying, I was talking of the title Ecumenical Patriarch, not the rank of first among equals. Certainly the Pope of Rome held that rank prior to the Great Schism, but I'm as sure as I can be without someone else's input that he never had that title.

James

James, you're right.  I did misunderstand you. 

I totally agree with what you said, now understanding what you said.   Grin

He never did have the title of "ecumenical patriarch"  but he did have the title of first among equals.  Do we agree?  (even if we might both be wrong... Wink )
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2006, 10:26:36 AM »

We certainly do agree. I guess my first post must have been a little more ambiguous than I intended.

James
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2006, 10:28:12 AM »

Why does Orthodoxy "need" an Ecumenical Patriarch? Let's look at what Fr. John Meyendorff has to say:

Quote
(The) Patriarchate, for the past many centuries, has been recognized as having a certain responsibility for the entire Church as a center of consensus with a "primacy of honor." This is why it is called the "Ecumenical Patriarchate." Misinformed journalists sometimes identify the Ecumenical Patriarch's position to that of the pope in Roman Catholicism, which is, of course, quite absurd, but it is unquestionable that the Orthodox conception of the Church recognizes the need for leadership of the world episcopate, for a certain spokesmanship by the first patriarch, for a ministry of coordination without which conciliarity is impossible... (John Meyendorff, "Needed: The Ecumenical Patriarchate," in Vision of Unity (Crestwood, NY: SVS Press, 1987), p. 133.)

In other words, the Orthodox Church is conciliar, which (among many things) means that the various churches that make up the Orthodox communion need to maintain relationships, need to interact -- and, thus, like any group, need someone to take a leadership role in fostering communication and jointly-sponsored activities.

Thus, Fr. Meyendorff also wrote:

Quote
Personally, I see no way in which the Orthodox Church can fulfill its mission in the world today without the ministry of a "first bishop," defined not any more in terms which were applicable under the Byzantine Empire or in terms of universal jurisdiction according to the Roman model but still based upon that "privilege of honor" of which the Second Ecumenical Council spoke. We should all think and search how to redefine that "privilege" in a way which would be practical and efficient today. (John Meyendorff, "The Council of 381 and the Primacy of Constantinople" in Catholicity and the Church (Crestwood, NY: SVS Press, 1983), p. 142.)

All of this has been repeated and confirmed by officially-approved Patriarchal theologians and EP Hierarchs, such as His Eminence Metropolitan Maximos of Sardis, who wrote a substantial work on the Patriarchate, in which he expresses the same understanding.

In addition to these sources, the most concise and complete answer to the question originally posed in this thread can be found in Lewis J. Patsavos' short study called Primacy and Conciliarity. It's only 57 pages, including endnotes and bibliography, and it describes the canonical tradition's understanding of the synodal nature of the Church and what, exactly, the primacy of the See of Constantinople means. In addition to this de jure analysis, Dr. Patsavos' essay also summarizes the Patriarchate's many important contributions to the Orthodox Church, including a description of the major Synods which have been convened by the Patriarch since the Great Schism with Rome and the various other initiatives and activities of the Patriarchate in the last 1,000 years (with special attention paid to the years after the Fall of Constantinople).

Since I can't type all of that right now, I'll just include a couple of quotes tacked on to the end of the essay, since these address the Patriarchate's historical and present-day role in the Church. Both quotes reveal how the Patriarchate has applied its canonical responsibilities and its ministry of coordination. NB: These are not opinions of what the Patriarchate should do, but rather a description of what the Patriarchate has been doing for many years with the approval and involvement of all Orthodox Churches.

Quote
The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, acting in association with his synod, has in recent years exercised primatial ministry in a number of important ways. First, and most importantly, this ministry has been expressed in the promotion of Orthodox unity and in the encouragement of international Pan-Orthodox cooperation. In the last several years, with the approval of the synod, the patriarch has embarked upon a series of visits to other patriarchates and major Christian sees, including Rome. While the patriarch and synod do not claim to have "jurisdiction" over other bishops outside of the patriarchate, they do claim responsibility for fostering unity. Second, the Ecumenical Patriarch and his synod have agreed to hear appeals from other local churches, a practice which has historical precedents as far back as the fifth century. Third, they have assumed ecumenical initiatives through publishing encyclical letters and promoting interchurch dialogues. And finally, they exercise pastoral care for churches in the diaspora, which remain at present under the care of this patriarchate. (M. Fahey, "Eastern Synodal Traditions: Pertinence for Western Collegial Institutions," in Episcopal Conferences: Historical, Canonical, and Theological Studies, ed. T. Reese (Washington, D.C., 1989), pp. 258-59.)

Quote
In general, the Ecumenical Patriarch has the right of initiative in matters affecting the relations of Orthodox with other Christians and in matters of Pan-Orthodox character, a right attributed to him by the heads of all Orthodox churches. In particular he has the following rights and duties:

(1) To consider appeals submitted to him by all clergy under him or by all other Orthodox churches; (2) to initiate correspondence on one or more important problems of inter-Orthodox, inter-Christian, or secular nature; (3) to convoke wider or pan-Orthodox synods; (4) to confer, with the consent of the other Orthodox churches, autonomy, autocephaly, and patriarchal status to churches formerly under him which have the canonical presuppositions; (5) to settle matters of outstanding importance concerning one or more Orthodox churches in the domains of faith, moral life, ecclesiastical law, church order, etc., either directly from the Phanar or by sending patriarchal exarchs; (6) to appoint on a permanent basis some hierarchs of the Ecumenical Throne in the lands outside of Turkey as exarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; (7) to bless the holy myron and distribute it to sister Orthodox churches, as a token of the spiritual bonds existing between the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the other Orthodox churches; ( 8 ) to recognize saints who have lived not only within the boundaries of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, but outside it as well, after the proper petition of the churches concerned; (9) to have precedence in concelebrations with other Orthodox prelates during worship services; (10) to put under his direct jurisdiction, or to establish certain monasteries as patriarchal stauropegia within his archdiocese, and the dioceses, archdioceses, and metropolises of his church and in certain cases, also within the limits of other Orthodox churches, as an outcome of their joint decision; (11) to be a point of contact with the outside world...; (12) to receive visitors, such the newly elected leaders of the Orthodox and other Christian churches, as well as the directors or general secretaries of various Christian institutions, who usually start their official visits towards the outside world by first coming to the Ecumenical Patriarchate; (13) to accept on behalf of the entire Church invitations of other Christian churches, institutions, and international foundations; (14) to receive holy relics when in some cases the Roman Catholic Church returns them from the West to the Eastern churches through the Ecumenical Patriarchate." (V. Istavridis, "The Authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch in the Life of the Orthodox Church," The Greek Orthodox Theological Review 35:1 (1990) 17-18.)
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2006, 10:29:40 AM »

For what it is worth, in our new translation of the Liturgy (Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh) we were told to drop the title ecumenical in reference to the Pope because that is a title of the Patriarch of Constantinople.  "Our holy, ecumenical pontiff, Bendedict, the Pope of Rome" is changed to "Our holy father, Benedict, the Pope of Rome."

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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2006, 10:30:50 AM »

All of this has been repeated and confirmed by officially-approved Patriarchal theologians and EP Hierarchs, such as His Eminence Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh, who wrote a substantial work on the Patriarchate, in which he expresses the same understanding.

Which work is this?
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2006, 10:43:23 AM »

Which work is this?

Whoops! I typed "Pittsburgh" out of habit. I should have typed "Sardis." I was thinking, of course, of the book we have mentioned before, i.e. Met. Maximos' The Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Orthodox Church.

For what it's worth, I've heard Met. Maximos express the same understanding, as well as the Patriarchal Exarch in these here parts, Archbishop Demetrios, along with other clergy who are actually from the Phanar. I'm sure our good friend cleveland, who just visited the Phanar and participated in (according to reports) a rather long and interesting audience with His All Holiness, could confirm such things better than I.
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2006, 10:44:50 AM »

Whoops! I typed "Pittsburgh" out of habit. I should have typed "Sardis." I was thinking, of course, of the book we have mentioned before, i.e. Met. Maximos' The Ecumenical Patriarchate in the Orthodox Church.

I thought that might be the case.  Smiley  But I was also quite interested if +Maximos of Puttsburgh had done any work on the matter, as well.  My experiences with His Eminence have always been quite good.
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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2006, 06:43:01 PM »

I thought that might be the case.  Smiley  But I was also quite interested if +Maximos of Puttsburgh had done any work on the matter, as well.  My experiences with His Eminence have always been quite good.

TeeHee, I read "Pittsburgh" without even noticing; it does sound like something he would write, doesn't it?
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2006, 06:44:29 PM »

For what it is worth, in our new translation of the Liturgy (Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh) we were told to drop the title ecumenical in reference to the Pope because that is a title of the Patriarch of Constantinople.  "Our holy, ecumenical pontiff, Bendedict, the Pope of Rome" is changed to "Our holy father, Benedict, the Pope of Rome."

Fr. Deacon Lance

Actually, for a reason I can't define this does seem worth something.  Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2006, 10:34:24 PM »


I'm not saying don't write.  I'm really glad you're writing this stuff, cuz we all battle with this.  Just think more about what you REALLY want to say next time. ÂÂ

I'm sorry if anything I wrote ticks you off. ÂÂ  Smiley

And how would you know what I REALLY wanted to say??  What I wrote IS WHAT I REALLY WANTED TO SAY.

Nothing you wrote ticks me off.  Why should it??  You have the right to speak your mind just as I do.  Why do I feel I ticked you off by what I said?? 

By the way, I didn't say anything about Protestants, did I??
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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2006, 10:01:27 PM »

And how would you know what I REALLY wanted to say??ÂÂ  What I wrote IS WHAT I REALLY WANTED TO SAY.


Sorry, I wrote the wrong words there.  I was trying to say that it seemed to me that you were trying to push some points that were important to you.  You were doing this (in my opinion) through frustration.  So, again in my opinion, you wern't really getting out what you wanted to say, you were just getting frustration out. 

But you know, this is all heresay, and assuming.  Thats why I thought that I might offend you, and why I appologized beforehand. 

Quote
Nothing you wrote ticks me off.  Why should it??  You have the right to speak your mind just as I do.  Why do I feel I ticked you off by what I said?? 

I like to make sure people know where i'm comming from.  If someone wrote to me what I wrote to you, i might have found if offensive (depending on my mood, etc.  Wink)  So I extended that curtesy to you. 

Quote
By the way, I didn't say anything about Protestants, did I??

Not directly, but indirectly:

Quote
How many other Christian denominations are there?? 
Quote
Some of these mega churches, although bring in the people every week, seem to me as being marketed like a new product.
Quote
I know some of you will say that other denominations and home churches may not teach the Word correctly.

Sorry if I misunderstood these quotes as something else, but to me that's all Protestantism, so therefore Protestants. 

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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2006, 10:29:13 PM »

Sorry, I wrote the wrong words there.ÂÂ  I was trying to say that it seemed to me that you were trying to push some points that were important to you.ÂÂ  You were doing this (in my opinion) through frustration.ÂÂ  So, again in my opinion, you wern't really getting out what you wanted to say, you were just getting frustration out.ÂÂ  

But you know, this is all heresay, and assuming.ÂÂ  Thats why I thought that I might offend you, and why I appologized beforehand.ÂÂ  

I like to make sure people know where i'm comming from.ÂÂ  If someone wrote to me what I wrote to you, i might have found if offensive (depending on my mood, etc.ÂÂ  Wink)ÂÂ  So I extended that curtesy to you.ÂÂ  

Not directly, but indirectly:
I know some of you will say that other denominations and home churches may not teach the Word correctly.

Sorry if I misunderstood these quotes as something else, but to me that's all Protestantism, so therefore Protestants.ÂÂ  



No apologies needed, but accepted anyway.

You're right, I do have a lot of frustrations of my own which I still need to work out. They have to do with 'the churche(s)', egos, and what I call ITBS (I'm The Boss Syndrome) which many of the parishioners at my former church seem to have.  My frustrations have nothing to do with God.
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2006, 10:30:25 AM »

Dude, you're preaching to the choir.  ITBS is an epidemic in my jurisdiction.  Very few people have any idea who God is, much less Christ.  They think the stories from the Bible are just that, stories. 

And yet we're all very pious people.  How that one happened, i'll never figure out.   Wink
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« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2006, 11:32:12 AM »

In the US we have how many Orthodox jurisdictions?ÂÂ I thought we are one church??ÂÂ  How many other Christian denominations are there??ÂÂ  

Thats a good point there, except that there is an N word that accounts for Orthodox Jurisdictionalism.... (No its not that word  Cheesy ). Its called NATIONALISM and its probably the largest thing separating the Orthodox Jurisdictions today. In order to collect the jurisdictions we have to eliminate jurisdictional nationalism. *waits for GiC to post*

-Nick
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« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2006, 12:13:08 PM »

Thats a good point there, except that there is an N word that accounts for Orthodox Jurisdictionalism.... (No its not that word  Cheesy ). Its called NATIONALISM and its probably the largest thing separating the Orthodox Jurisdictions today. In order to collect the jurisdictions we have to eliminate jurisdictional nationalism. *waits for GiC to post*

I believe GiC agrees with you. The EP has actually made this very argument for years, especially on a canonical and theological basis against ROCOR, since at times the ROCOR leadership (and also the MP leadership...and even the Church of Romania!) has specifically claimed to have jurisdiction over all RUSSIANS (or Romanians). It's called the ethnic principle, and the Church of Romania even made this principle its official stance in the Pre-Conciliar meetings in preparation for the Great and Holy Council. That's one reason the meetings have came to a stop.

The EP, however, has staked its claim on the territorial principle (which is obviously the correct canonical and historical principle), and then interpreted Canon 28 of Chalcedon et al. to mean that the EP's territorial jurisdiction (not ethnic jurisdiction) includes all of the areas in dispute.

One may disagree with that application, but, fundamentally, the EP's argument is based on a strictly anti-ethnic understanding of Church polity. That's why the EP has many ethnicities, just like the Byzantine Empire did.
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« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2006, 12:45:04 PM »

Thats a good point there, except that there is an N word that accounts for Orthodox Jurisdictionalism.... (No its not that wordÂÂ  Cheesy ). Its called NATIONALISM and its probably the largest thing separating the Orthodox Jurisdictions today. In order to collect the jurisdictions we have to eliminate jurisdictional nationalism. *waits for GiC to post*

-Nick

I think you hit it right on the head with the N word.  I was going to a Greek church 100+ miles roundtrip rather than going to an Antiochian church 5 miles away.
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« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2006, 12:50:21 PM »

The EP, however, has staked its claim on the territorial principle (which is obviously the correct canonical and historical principle), and then interpreted Canon 28 of Chalcedon et al. to mean that the EP's territorial jurisdiction (not ethnic jurisdiction) includes all of the areas in dispute.

One may disagree with that application, but, fundamentally, the EP's argument is based on a strictly anti-ethnic understanding of Church polity. That's why the EP has many ethnicities, just like the Byzantine Empire did.

ISTM though that he's trying to have it both ways (or more) - all ("diaspora") territories, all greeks and anyone who appeals to him whether or not they even should be.
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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2006, 01:17:14 PM »

ISTM though that he's trying to have it both ways (or more) - all ("diaspora") territories, all greeks and anyone who appeals to him whether or not they even should be.

Well, this is another debate, but all of the policies you list are motivated by the same canonical principle of territoriality. According to the EP's interpretation of Canon 28, these territories should be under the EP's omophorion until the canonical requirements for their autonomy and eventual autocephaly are met [not under the omophorion of a different Bishop simply because (a) that Bishop is of the same ethnicity (as the Romanians claim) or (b) because that Bishop's emissaries managed to "get there first" (as the MP claims), since neither of these justifications are founded in the canonical tradition of the Orthodox Church].

There are three possible positions: (1) The ethnic one, only currently held by Romania; (2) the missionary one, held by the MP, which is a position based on history, but not the canonical tradition; and (3) the territorial one, held by the EP, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Greece, Cyprus, et al., which is a position based on history and canon law. (I can't remember, off hand, what the Serbs and Antiochians said at the Pre-Conciliar meetings...maybe GiC remembers). Thus, the EP feels its position is both the most theologically, historically and canonically sound position, as well as the most practical means of moving toward unity and eventual autonomy, etc.

Viewed from this perspective, the Greeks, Ukrainians, Carpatho-Russians, Albanians, Russians, even Old Calendarists, et al. who have recognized the EP's canonically legitimate and practical solution to the mess we've made of things in the diaspora are more than welcome to come under his omophorion. He doesn't pastor the "Greeks" because they are "Greek," but because they are in his canonically defined territorial (and temporary) jurisdiction, just as he doesn't pastor the Albanians in the U.S. because they are Albanian, but because they are in that same aforementioned territory. Likewise, he doesn't accept Bishop Basil (or any of the other many Russian parishes in Western Europe) because they are Russian, but because they have voluntarily recognized the EP's oversight as the most canonically legitimate and practical solution for the time being.
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2006, 01:33:14 PM »

We are already Catholic.ÂÂ  Reference the Creed you reciteÂÂ  at each Divine Liturgy.

Orthodoc

Yes we are, but catholic with a small c.  My question was about Catholic with a capital C. BTW, I recite the Creed several times a day, not just during Liturgy.
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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2006, 01:45:57 PM »

BTW, I recite the Creed several times a day, not just during Liturgy.

My, my, aren't we pious.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2006, 02:47:44 PM »

My, my, aren't we pious.ÂÂ  Roll Eyes

We just try to be and pray that we succeed> Wink
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2006, 02:49:49 PM »

Well, this is another debate, but all of the policies you list are motivated by the same canonical principle of territoriality. According to the EP's interpretation of Canon 28, these territories should be under the EP's omophorion until the canonical requirements for their autonomy and eventual autocephaly are met [not under the omophorion of a different Bishop simply because (a) that Bishop is of the same ethnicity (as the Romanians claim) or (b) because that Bishop's emissaries managed to "get there first" (as the MP claims), since neither of these justifications are founded in the canonical tradition of the Orthodox Church].

There are three possible positions: (1) The ethnic one, only currently held by Romania; (2) the missionary one, held by the MP, which is a position based on history, but not the canonical tradition; and (3) the territorial one, held by the EP, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Greece, Cyprus, et al., which is a position based on history and canon law. (I can't remember, off hand, what the Serbs and Antiochians said at the Pre-Conciliar meetings...maybe GiC remembers). Thus, the EP feels its position is both the most theologically, historically and canonically sound position, as well as the most practical means of moving toward unity and eventual autonomy, etc.

Viewed from this perspective, the Greeks, Ukrainians, Carpatho-Russians, Albanians, Russians, even Old Calendarists, et al. who have recognized the EP's canonically legitimate and practical solution to the mess we've made of things in the diaspora are more than welcome to come under his omophorion. He doesn't pastor the "Greeks" because they are "Greek," but because they are in his canonically defined territorial (and temporary) jurisdiction, just as he doesn't pastor the Albanians in the U.S. because they are Albanian, but because they are in that same aforementioned territory. Likewise, he doesn't accept Bishop Basil (or any of the other many Russian parishes in Western Europe) because they are Russian, but because they have voluntarily recognized the EP's oversight as the most canonically legitimate and practical solution for the time being.

You have alot of very good rundowns on this, the problem as I see it though is that, if you do unite under the EP, then you're kind of giving up your ethnic identity. I don't really want to sound supportive of nationalism, but I do think that it is something that really needs to be handled delicately. I remember when the EP came to Chicago and held a 4 hour Liturgy at Navy Pier that was all in Greek. Well, for the rest of the jurisdictions, that doesn't do much. You can't expect non-greeks to unite under a patriarch who "gives the appearance" that he is Greek. Much the same you can't expect the Greeks to fall under a patriarch who "gives the appearance" that he is russian. Many of the problems encountered by orthodoxy are all because of nationalistic identities and an unwillingness to give up an ethnocentrism to join the nationality of Orthodoxy.

-Nick
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2006, 03:08:49 PM »

Here is the "Greek Orthodox Church" that is not under the EP. Again, its all because of nationalistic identities and an unwillingness to give up an ethnocentrism to join the nationality of Orthodoxy.

I dont think thats fair to say... Its not that simple.
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2006, 03:12:32 PM »

pentsateomnia,
Yes, I understand that point, but back to mine, look at the Estonian and Ukrainian situations....and I think there may be others as well.
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2006, 03:59:34 PM »

I dont think thats fair to say... Its not that simple.

You're actually right, that didn't come out the way it was intended.... Let me fix it
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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2006, 04:07:38 PM »

Yes we are, but catholic with a small c.  My question was about Catholic with a capital C. BTW, I recite the Creed several times a day, not just during Liturgy.

And do I disagree here. 'Catholic' with a BIG C; Orthodoc is right. Not Roman of course, but Orthodox.
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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2006, 04:43:27 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9206.msg125450#msg125450 date=1151093258]
And do I disagree here. 'Catholic' with a BIG C; Orthodoc is right. Not Roman of course, but Orthodox.
[/quote]

Well then I guess I stand corrected.  I was always told that when referring to the Catholic church it is with a Capital C and when referring to the church being 'catholic" it is with a lower case c.  I've also noticed that the text of the Creed spells it with a lower case c.  Thank you for the clarification.
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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2006, 05:03:51 PM »

I was always told that when referring to the Catholic church it is with a Capital C and when referring to the church being 'catholic" it is with a lower case c.

Both the Roman Catholic and the Eastern Orthodox Churches claim to be THE Catholic Church. That's the important theological point.

Otherwise, capitals are really an incidental question of English style and usage, since the original documents of the early Church, in both Greek and Latin, used either (a) all capitals or (b) a cursive style with no capitals. Thus, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (whose final version didn't come about until Chalcedon) was probably written in ALL capitals with no punctuation marks or spaces between letters and words.

Quote
I've also noticed that the text of the Creed spells it with a lower case c.ÂÂ  Thank you for the clarification.

All printed translations of the Creed I have read (in Latin, French, German, Romanian and English) capitalize all of the adjectives. Thus, all of the versions of the Creed in my possession say: "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church." But, like I said, that's just a reflection of the modern editor's typographical predilections based on whatever standard of English usage he favors. One can decide to capitalize or not capitalize whatever one wants.
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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2006, 05:05:42 PM »

Well then I guess I stand corrected.  I was always told that when referring to the Catholic church it is with a Capital C and when referring to the church being 'catholic" it is with a lower case c.  I've also noticed that the text of the Creed spells it with a lower case c.  Thank you for the clarification.

teehee...ooooookay...
I'm guessing you've never read The Orthodox Church by Bishop Kallistos(Ware) wherein he states that "Holy Orthodox Catholic Church of the East" is a canonical name for the Church.  Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2006, 05:08:44 PM »

Pensateomnia,
I nearly added a bit above about caps and lower case in Greek. Thanks. I do think the Alexandria Greeks did us a big favor with their lower case innovation- at least I think it was they.
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« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2006, 05:19:45 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9206.msg125461#msg125461 date=1151096924]
Pensateomnia,
I nearly added a bit above about caps and lower case in Greek. Thanks. I do think the Alexandria Greeks did us a big favor with their lower case innovation- at least I think it was they.
[/quote]

Yeah. And they added spaces between the words in some cases, as well as punctuation marks. However, their scripts are a pain in the butt to read, a trend that only gets worse in the medieval period. If only the medieval scripts were like those from the Imperial period! Even with the Roman penchant for abbreviating words, I prefer the old way, e.g. IMPCAESARDIVIFAVGVSTVSIMPXX. Now that I can handle. Wink

Of course, the original version of the Creed doesn't exist, but it very well could have been in all caps: Even modern Greek texts still use all caps for official purposes, such as a title page or a book cover.
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« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2006, 05:28:43 PM »

Quote
IMPCAESARDIVIFAVGVSTVSIMPXX

I'm impressed - would take me a couple of weeks on that -wait don't tell me - I'll be back later  Cheesy
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