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Bishop Paul Andrew
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« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2006, 04:41:17 AM »

Our Business with the Russian Patriach is our business.It has been and over sight with in our Jurisdiction. we have a time and please for very thing. we leave it up to the lord.

one thing is that we don't have to deal with a Communist Patriarch and kiss his behid like the OCA did when Metropolitan Ireney was running the show back in 1970. just so you know this was told to me several years ago be for I was baptist and confirmed in to the orthodox Church.

Plus I have my connection in Russia with serveral Priest whom I am very good friends with.
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« Reply #91 on: June 09, 2006, 06:37:28 AM »

Well put, Peter.

Our Business with the Russian Patriach is our business.It has been and over sight with in our Jurisdiction. we have a time and please for very thing. we leave it up to the lord.

one thing is that we don't have to deal with a Communist Patriarch and kiss his behid like the OCA did when Metropolitan Ireney was running the show back in 1970. just so you know this was told to me several years ago be for I was baptist and confirmed in to the orthodox Church.

Plus I have my connection in Russia with serveral Priest whom I am very good friends with.

That means no, they can't concelebrate with the Russians.

Now who's being mean and judgemental, Mr Hood? The OCA don't accept your games so you badmouth them.

Once again: the folks who confirmed you weren't telling you the truth. They aren't Orthodox.
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Bishop Paul Andrew
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« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2006, 11:24:35 AM »

Ever since I came in to this forum.it has been nothing but hear says,like the old saying of He said or she said.
so far I have hear nothing but (B.S)You Say that the AOCC is dead do to Aftimios getting Married. Now let me say this one point. One side says that the Patriarch of Constantinople Excommunicated Aftimios for being married and one side says he Excommunicated himself. Point who can you believe. Now from another stand point there are those who say differently of point one and point two.

Now lets look at is point about the AOCC. you say that the Bishops who were with Aftimios and stayed incommuinon with him also excommunicated them selfs as well. Now lets look at Sophronios Bishara who was one of Aftimios Bishop, How can he be excommunicated and return to the Russian Metropolia in America. So here another point of hear says. We can't say much about Joseph Zuk Aftimios 's second Bishop who passedaway around that time. Now there is Ignatius Nichols who was consecrated in 1932.Now he was the Last bishop in the Aftimios synod. Now being the last Bishop he had asked another bishop by the name of Ambrosius of ammon.I don't know to much about him. Now he and Ignatius Nichols Consecrated Georgios Plummer in which was a new synod. so from here Aftimios is married and has a family and now we have a new Synod with out the three primary Bishop. Ofiesh,Bishara,Zuk. So the AOCC is some what thriving. with new Bishops as well as a new Synod.ÂÂ  we have another point of hears says. going all the way to Walter Propheta. so again there is hear say. So I'll leave here for you to give me more hears says.

For those in the OCA I do Apologize for my remark about metropolitan Ireny as this was something that was told to me.
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« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2006, 11:49:45 AM »

Ever since I came in to this forum.it has been nothing but hear says,like the old saying of He said or she said.
so far I have hear nothing but (B.S)You Say that the AOCC is dead do to Aftimios getting Married. Now let me say this one point. One side says that the Patriarch of Constantinople Excommunicated Aftimios for being married and one side says he Excommunicated himself. Point who can you believe. Now from another stand point there are those who say differently of point one and point two.

My! It's easier to read and understand my small-print and partially ripped German translation of the Gospel of Truth than it is to read these posts! Is anyone else thoroughly tired of this thread?

Fr. Paul: If all you have heard since coming to this forum is, as you so clerically put it, B.S., why are you continuing to visit this site? What is your purpose? Are you trying to convince members of this board that you are indeed a member of the same Church as we? If so, this is demonstrably false, since -- for whatever reason -- we do not share the same cup. You may certainly disapprove of this fact, but fact it remains, and it thus does not behoove you or us to continue this fruitless line of discussion.

All: I suggest to the members of this board that we let this thread die. Our brother's motives are (at best) unclear, and his attitude completely intransigent and belligerent. Should he desire to discuss other matters of actual import (such as Orthodox doctrine, life, etc.) on a different thread, with a different attitude, and, perhaps, with the aid of a copy editor, I would be far more kindly disposed to entertain his contributions to the forum. Until then, adieu.
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« Reply #94 on: June 09, 2006, 12:05:34 PM »

Well my friend since you too think I am not Orthodox I could say the same to you. But since I can't do to that Metropolitan Joachim Souris Of Blessed Memory was the Metropolitan of Athens Greece for the Old Calandar Church and Co-consecrator to one of our former Metropolitan, Metroplitan Walter Propheta of Blessed Memory and who was Spiritual Father to my Former Metroplitan Demitrius J King Former Metropolitan of Los Angeles an all North America

Joachim Souris was a schismatic ordained by the Soviet-based patriarchate in its attempts to gain control of foreign churches in the 1930's and 40's.  He then went to Greece and set up an altar against the real head of the GOC, Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina and his successors Archbishop Akakios and Auxentios.  Those are the heads of the Greek Old Calendarist Church--not Joachim Souris.

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« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2006, 12:08:28 PM »

You must have a one track mind which is stuck on tape one saying ex-communication over and over
If Aftimios's wife who passed either in 1999 0r 2000. any way if she was still here and if she heard the
way you talk about her husband she would most likely smack you clear a round a Pole. ÂÂ

I actually took the time to read her biography of him.  I am not as ignorant as you think.  How does saying that she would smack someone around a Pole endear us to your position? It just makes your case look even worse!  This is not Christian.

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« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2006, 12:11:07 PM »

My! It's easier to read and understand my small-print and partially ripped German translation of the Gospel of Truth than it is to read these posts! Is anyone else thoroughly tired of this thread?

Fr. Paul: If all you have heard since coming to this forum is, as you so clerically put it, B.S., why are you continuing to visit this site? What is your purpose? Are you trying to convince members of this board that you are indeed a member of the same Church as we? If so, this is demonstrably false, since -- for whatever reason -- we do not share the same cup. You may certainly disapprove of this fact, but fact it remains, and it thus does not behoove you or us to continue this fruitless line of discussion.

It's tiresome all right.

He obviously wants to be 'validated' (ha ha) in his pose as a priest.

Once again (sigh), I'm not being prideful or a meanie: if somebody who thought he was a priest, Orthodox or otherwise, but really isn't, but provably had a real ministry in a real place to real human beings, came here and talked about his work, he'd get my respect. He'd have earned it.

This guy obviously has no theology or real education, just a bunch of 'B.S.' he picked up from somewhere (probably some harebrained correspondence-course 'seminary') about having 'canonical lines' and obsesses about, and no actual ministry, and then barges in here demanding to be respected like a real priest...

... and abuses you in a most un-priestly manner if you don't.

Again, remember what Jesus said about showboaters like that, who love to be greeted in the marketplace with great shows of respect?

Kindly p*ss off, Mr Hood.
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« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2006, 01:44:52 PM »

Today we have a plethora of pseudo-Orthodox sects who claim to be Orthodox and argue that we show hatred and judgmentalism when we continue to proclaim their excommunicated status.  However, should we not follow the examples of the great saints Irenaeus and Cyprian by pointing out how these sects cannot be Orthodox because they are not in communion with the institutional Church?

It is not the substance of what is being said in defense of what you believe to be the only true orthodox church,  it is the heart attitude with which it is said.

If Irenaeus and Cyprian are truly saints,  they had the heart of God which is to bring all men to the knowledge of the truth, in one unity of purpose.

As an outsider new to this forum, I see dividing lines being drawn and cast in concrete, without any hope of reconciliation or communion.

It is very troubling to me that these lines are not drawn over heretical doctrine but rather over canonical and jurisdictional issues.

I don't understand why this forum isn't working towards unity by  showing  hospitality, and defusing and wining over those who come in a defensive posture,  with a mind's eye to bringing them into communion.

In the meantime, if I might make a suggestion,  this subject of jurisdiction and canonicity can turn very ugly in a heartbeat. Rather than posting this in a place where Catholics considering conversion to Orthodoxy can be turned completely off, how much trouble  would it be for you to create a topic for this issue, moderated by a mature fatherly figure, whose heart is towards communion, but has knowledge of the different issues that divide, so that people like us could actually make a little progress in understanding? 

In the meantime, to protect people from misunderstanding who one or the other might be, clarifying (as you did in my case) that we are independent jurisdiction, not part of the mainline E.O.And perhaps enforce a policy of respecting the titles of those who post here, Mother, Father, Brother....but this position would be further clarified by jurisdiction.  I believe that most Christians seeking the true faith, are mature enough to recognize one another by the Spirit, and certainly the moderators could step in and point out false doctrine, should it arise.

I don't think it is faith issues that divide us brothers,  rather it is the canons.

I believe this forum has tremendous potential to make straight the way of the Lord, to build up His kingdom on earth and to bring all men to the knowledge of truth.  This is my prayer for you.
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« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2006, 02:26:08 PM »

It is not the substance of what you are saying, in defense of what you believe to be the only true orthodox church,ÂÂ  it is the heart attitude with which it is said.


How can ANYONE make any rational judgment of someone's heart or "heart attitde" from online posts.  Really.  I argue or debate things with people online (not just here) and don't have a clue how they are in real life.  The nature of many online discussions is deliberate polemnical debates/arguments.  The topics can be practical in nature as well, but the written word is EXTREMELY difficult to convey intent and demeanor let alone just putting your thoughts into intelligible form.
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« Reply #99 on: June 09, 2006, 04:08:49 PM »

It is not the substance of what you are saying, in defense of what you believe to be the only true orthodox church,  it is the heart attitude with which it is said.
And how are you qualified to judge the heart attitude that motivated my post?  (Need I mention that I found your apparent judgment of my attitude personally insulting?  :'()  As Elisha stated so well, the weakness of this medium of the written word really doesn't allow me to communicate my heart's attitude unless I state it explicitly.  Even then, it's extremely easy for someone to judge from the rest of my words that I'm lying about my attitude.

Quote
As an outsider new to this forum, I see dividing lines being drawn and cast in concrete, without any hope of reconciliation or communion.

It is very troubling to me that these lines are not drawn over heretical doctrine but rather over canonical and jurisdictional issues.
Unless you truly understand the importance we Orthodox attach to our canonical tradition, your statements above just come across as judgmental and rude because of their ignorance.  Why do you automatically conclude that we draw our dividing lines based on canonical and jurisdictional issues, as if these are actually bad per se?  Do you not see that many of these issues really are issues of heretical doctrine against the authority of the Holy Spirit?

Quote
I don't think it is faith issues that divide us brothers,  rather it is the canons.
Obedience to the canons is an issue of our faith in the Church, the Body of Christ.
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« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2006, 04:15:53 PM »

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How does saying that she would smack someone around a Pole endear us to your position?

In that the rules of English stipulate only proper nouns are to be capitalized, I'm wondering if I am supposed to take offense at that statement. 

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« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2006, 04:36:46 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123696#msg123696 date=1149884153]
In that the rules of English stipulate only proper nouns are to be capitalized, I'm wondering if I am supposed to take offense at that statement.ÂÂ  


[/quote]

 Tongue
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« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2006, 05:13:30 PM »

And how are you qualified to judge the heart attitude that motivated my post?  (Need I mention that I found your apparent judgment of my attitude personally insulting?  :'() 

 Sad  I'm very sorry, I did not mean you personally.  Please forgive me. Undecided
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« Reply #103 on: June 09, 2006, 05:15:28 PM »

And how are you qualified to judge the heart attitude that motivated my post? 

When you read the beatitudes, you are reading His Heart.

Elisha:  "How can ANYONE make any rational judgment of someone's heart or "heart attitde" from online posts"

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks....
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« Reply #104 on: June 09, 2006, 05:27:30 PM »

When you read the beatitudes, you are reading His Heart.

Elisha:  "How can ANYONE make any rational judgment of someone's heart or "heart attitde" from online posts"

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks....
But when listening to the mouth you can hear tone of voice, and you can see body language, two extremely important elements of communication that can help you "read between the lines" and understand a person's attitude much more accurately.  You can hear the loving tone with which someone speaks the most confrontational words and know that one is speaking in love and not harsh judgment.  You can hear the sarcasm that one uses to speak the greatest praise of you and know that they really resent you.  Tone of voice and body language are impossible to communicate on an internet forum, which is why the words we write here are extremely unreliable measures of attitude.
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« Reply #105 on: June 09, 2006, 05:30:37 PM »

Unless you truly understand the importance we Orthodox attach to our canonical tradition,

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.

Unless we have love brothers,  all the truth in our canons is nothing but a noisy gong.

 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;

7  (Charity) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, (unity?),   endureth all things. (our ignorance, with a mind to educating and bringing us in?)

8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. (canons as well)

9 For we know in part... 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.  (canons as well)

13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.







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« Reply #106 on: June 09, 2006, 05:42:02 PM »

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.
But it all comes back to the same issue between you and this forum.  What makes you qualified to judge the hearts of others here?  I'm personally getting very tired of us being harangued by your frequent bursts of judgmentalism.
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« Reply #107 on: June 09, 2006, 05:53:28 PM »

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.

Unless we have love brothers,ÂÂ  all the truth in our canons is nothing but a noisy gong.

No, it's an *AND* issue (to phrase it like many of us techy types)....otherwise there is no difference between Orthodox and Budhists.
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« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2006, 06:24:20 PM »

We can't say much about Joseph Zuk, Aftimios 's second Bishop who passed away around that time.
Actually he remained a canonical Orthodox Hierarch until his death in 1934.
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« Reply #109 on: June 09, 2006, 06:44:35 PM »

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.

Unless we have love brothers,  all the truth in our canons is nothing but a noisy gong.

 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;

7  (Charity) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, (unity?),   endureth all things. (our ignorance, with a mind to educating and bringing us in?)

8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. (canons as well)

9 For we know in part... 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.  (canons as well)

13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

This should have been prefaced with 'Warning:extreme irony ahead'.

Love is patient, love is kind...

It doesn't barge into a forum bragging about titles one didn't earn.

It isn't puffed up indeed.

When nicely told the truth it doesn't come back with 'I just don't see the love of Jesus anywhere in you', 'I don't care what you say', 'you make me sick', etc. etc.

You're nicer than the other one - you admitted you aren't in a canonical church, that you don't know that much about Orthodoxy and asked questions.

Now you're dragging yourself down to Mr Hood's level.

Tell you what: I'll recognise you lot as Orthodox priests and nuns if you accept my claim of valid succession from His Highness Norton I, Emperor of the United States (a real person who lived in San Francisco), as King of the World and pay taxes to me. I can even throw up a website listing my 'lines' and post on message boards berating anybody who doesn't accept my God-given right to rule... those big meanies!  Tongue
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« Reply #110 on: June 09, 2006, 08:28:27 PM »

Quote
I can even throw up a website listing my 'lines' and post on message boards berating anybody who doesn't accept my God-given right to rule...

Please do share. 
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« Reply #111 on: June 10, 2006, 11:53:21 AM »

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.

As has been said, canonical tradition lets us know where a starting point is.  We very much disagree with you regarding who is canonically Orthodox.  Some have stated this more bluntly than others.  Would you be willing, ma'am, to concede that simply because I think that neither you nor the poster going by the name of "Fr. Paul Andrew" are not, in fact, Orthodox--that this does not automatically make me uncharitable and unhospitable?  It only means, imo, that I disagree with you and him.  Yet FPA says that merely disagreeing with his stance makes us Pharisees and unChristian and mean and whatever else. 

Quote
Unless we have love brothers,  all the truth in our canons is nothing but a noisy gong.

This is true.  Yet without all the truth in our canons, our love is just an unfocused, pointless sentiment.

Quote
7  (Charity) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, (unity?),   endureth all things. (our ignorance, with a mind to educating and bringing us in?)

We definitely hope for unity, but we will not do so at the expense of truth.  If we admitted your group or FPA's group to SCOBA communion, we basically would give a green light to all the doctrines we disagree on still.  Are you aware, ma'am, that SCOBA (as well as the rest of the institutional, mainline Orthodox Church worldwide) believes that they alone constitute the Church, and considers this a fundamental doctrine of what it means to be Orthodox?  If you admit that you need to be educated and brought in, would you truly be willing to reconcile to this and work towards what's been called "true ecumenism" by many Orthodox: that is, the universal conversion of all men to the Orthodox faith?

Quote
8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. (canons as well)

9 For we know in part... 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.  (canons as well)

Yes...were we perfect and not sinners, we wouldn't need the canons, or icons, or the Eucharist, or even the Bible for that matter.  But we do need them, and until they pass away at the full revelation of Christ, there they stand, helping to guide the Church.

I hope this has been charitable, yet firm.
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« Reply #112 on: June 10, 2006, 12:41:13 PM »

This is true.ÂÂ  Yet without all the truth in our canons, our love is just an unfocused, pointless sentiment.

Excellent point. Although most (okay all) here would not call me Orthodox, and although I have a very hard time agreeing with my Church on some major issues, I absolutely believe that the Church can, and should, define the praxis and tenents of the Faith. Someone has to set the rules.

The problem for me is that they are just so hard to confrom to that it is easier to rail against them!ÂÂ  Cheesy It has never been easy for me to be a follower nor to believe something is so because someone in authority says it is. I need validation before I accept something! Makes things difficult in matters of faith.
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« Reply #113 on: June 10, 2006, 01:32:22 PM »

TomS,
Please define "validation" or your concept of a validating authority.
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« Reply #114 on: June 10, 2006, 07:56:13 PM »

Dear Pedro,

Thank you for your kind reply,  I am edified  by your answer.  Disagreements are inevitable,  but at least we can be polite and respectful, a gentle answer turns away rath, and may even convert a soul.

I understand the firmness of your perspective,  and by the standards you use, I would not expect you to call us Orthodox.  Using your standards, we more closely resemble heterodox.  However by our practice, we are moving towards Orthodoxy, slowly incorporating the changes from our Latin background, and continuing to inquire into a canonical Orthodox covering where we could receive more help and instruction.  Although if that means that we must condemn everything Catholic,  we will never arrive there.

I cannot speak for the intentions of the other poster, but I  do understand  some of the concerns voiced here.   I really appreciate the Christian example you have set in your firm but polite response.  Thank you.

In His Peace and Mercy

Mother Anastasia

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« Reply #115 on: June 10, 2006, 08:14:39 PM »

  a green light to all the doctrines we disagree on still.

I'd like to know exactly what doctrines you have in mind, since I believe that to be the most important issue.  So far I haven't been able to put together a complete list, simplified, so that I could examine the issues. 

I do understand the canonical ordinations and consecrations and the reasons for them, but I don't understand, for instance, how one minute a person could be so heartily condemned and then the next minute after their papers are examined they could be brought into SCOBA for instance, and be truly Orthodox, when what they believed hasn't changed, only their paperwork and standing.

I guess that's my major misunderstanding with all this,  no one seems really interested in what we believe, or teach others, only in what group we belong to.  And if Father consecrates the Eucharist, is it truly the Body and Blood in your eyes?  Can the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist exist outside of SCOBA?

I really am trying to get to the bottom of it all.  And from the reactions of some on this forum,  we stand just as condemned before you as we would before a Catholic bishop for "leaving"  the church in the first place.  Call it an uninformed conscience if you must, but we simply could not go on.  And there seems to be little hope from your group if in order to be in the True Church, we have to condemn everything Catholic. 

Perhaps you can understand my dilemna.
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« Reply #116 on: June 10, 2006, 08:41:29 PM »

Mother Anastasia,
First of all, thank you very much for the change of information in your profile.
I do understand the canonical ordinations and consecrations and the reasons for them, but I don't understand, for instance, how one minute a person could be so heartily condemned and then the next minute after their papers are examined they could be brought into SCOBA for instance, and be truly Orthodox, when what they believed hasn't changed, only their paperwork and standing.
 

If some group were really condemned and then they became validated, that transpires not through the paperwork, but instead by repentance of this group and their overcoming of questionable and false doctrines.
Another thing may happen when the fact of schism and / or absence of communion is present, without any ideological controversy and heresy. While schism by itself always appears to be an extremely painful thing, it often can take less efforts to heal.
Edited for spelling.
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« Reply #117 on: June 10, 2006, 09:46:22 PM »

Reasons I can respect your position, MA:

You aren't calling yourself Orthodox now that you know better.

And you have a real ministry.
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« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2006, 01:35:08 AM »


I do understand the canonical ordinations and consecrations and the reasons for them, but I don't understand, for instance, how one minute a person could be so heartily condemned and then the next minute after their papers are examined they could be brought into SCOBA for instance, and be truly Orthodox, when what they believed hasn't changed, only their paperwork and standing.


In all humility, please consider the following thoughts: Christianity is all about relationships, both of the person with Christ, and of the person with other people, who are of course attempting to become the fulfillment and future of humanity, which is Christ.

So, the reason a sudden change can occur as you point out isn't just a paperwork issue, but what it reveals is that the relationship between the person and the Church has been corrected and renewed through the Holy Spirit as revealed through the Mysteries of the Church. That is how things can change--because now it is known that the Spirit has moved among them, instead of merely suspected or hoped for: the correction of the person's relationship to the Church has changed. This is the nature of Pentecost, which many of us will be celebrating this morning: the sudden arrival of the Spirit to form the Church changed the world in that moment, while to many others nothing visible changed other than some people wandered into the street to speak in languages they understood.

Quote
I guess that's my major misunderstanding with all this,ÂÂ  no one seems really interested in what we believe, or teach others, only in what group we belong to.ÂÂ  And if Father consecrates the Eucharist, is it truly the Body and Blood in your eyes?ÂÂ  Can the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist exist outside of SCOBA?

Well, to be honest with you, we are interested in what you teach, because frankly not all of it is Orthodox, but I think you realize that now while perhaps earlier you did not. And, frankly, it actually is important what 'group' you belong to, because the Church has always been an institution that has existed in a physical way.

The questions you pose--I have no answer for them, because while we know where the Church is, we do not know where the Church is not. We know that the Eucharist in the SCOBA-affiliated Churches are truly the Body and Blood of Christ. Because we are uncertain of your eucharist, we must be cautious and not receive it, since its reception would imply we agree with your teachings which are at odds with what we know to be Truth. Please respect the fact that this is our way, since this is the way taught us since Early Christian times.

Therefore, just be patient with us. Not one of us wishes you ill.

Quote
...And there seems to be little hope from your group if in order to be in the True Church, we have to condemn everything Catholic.ÂÂ  

Perhaps you can understand my dilemna.

Nobody is saying you have to 'reject everything Catholic'; my wife, who was Catholic, noted that really she did not have to adjust her thinking much at all, and in fact Orthodoxy settled many of the questions she had been quietly asking herself about her former faith. Sometimes we on the Internet get a bit histrionic about things, and it truly can seem like you're getting beaten upon when you ask a question and 6 or 8 Orthodox posters all chime in in rapid succession with their opinions. The responses seem like a deluge of personal rejection, especially when many of the responders indulge their egos and try to outdo each other in hyperbole. Please forgive us for our offenses in that regard.

Really, I understand your dilemma, as my wife and I have walked that same path before. It is very hard, full of pain and anger, confusion and joy. This is because it is in fact a relationship!

 If it is of any comfort to you, please know that I shall be praying for you as I assist near the altar in a few hours.
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« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2006, 05:19:20 AM »

Just a note to say although all the SCOBA churches are in the Orthodox communion, not all Orthodox churches in America belong to SCOBA: the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad for example is universally recognised as in the communion but not a member of SCOBA.
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« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2006, 02:25:39 PM »

Just a note to say although all the SCOBA churches are in the Orthodox communion, not all Orthodox churches in America belong to SCOBA: the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad for example is universally recognised as in the communion but not a member of SCOBA.

Correct. And to which we might also add the Church of Moscow which still directly controls 50+ parishes in North America. I do not think one can get more Orthodox as far as universal acceptance with them either; I do not believe they have SCOBA representation or membership.
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« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2006, 03:05:22 PM »

The reason I didn't mention Moscow's Patriarchal Parishes in the US (I think that's their formal name) is because they are in SCOBA by proxy, represented by the OCA.
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« Reply #122 on: June 11, 2006, 03:45:50 PM »

Actually he remained a canonical Orthodox Hierarch until his death in 1934.

Thank you. you are the only one that give a stright answer.

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« Reply #123 on: June 11, 2006, 03:56:22 PM »

Thank you. you are the only one that give a stright answer.



hmmmm. I believe everyone here was giving very straight answers.  You just don't agree with them.
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« Reply #124 on: June 11, 2006, 06:29:35 PM »


We are in THE Orthodox Church.


Reader Nikolai


Your not the only one



I'm sorry Mr. Andrew, there is no such thing as an "Independant Orthodox jurisdiction", the very concept goes against Orthodox Ecclesiology.

Reader Nikolai

I guess this leave you out as well. you say there is no such thingÂÂ  as a independant Orthodox Jurisdiction. The word independant means Autonomy or Autonomous. how ever you look at it



Sir, you need to understand something, You are either Orthodox or you are not.  If a group with no canonical backing suddenly shows up and declares that it is Orthodox, it must be able to prove this. As you cannot, you are not Orthodox.  It's very simple.  I'm sorry if that offends you. But, it's the truth.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Hmmmmm... So, when you run out of arguments you just resort to hearsay and rumours.

Reader Nikolai

As long as any Orthodox Church here in America follows the ruder. Be it OCA and so on, they are are Orthodox with or with out canonical backing, being in Scoba or not being in scoba.ÂÂ  Even if they are not recongnized by main stream Churches. and as I have said By what right and under who's authority gives you the right to say who is not Orthodox. the only one I see that is not orthodox is the Roman Catholic Church. and Old Roman Catholic Church. As for here say and rumors. I don'tÂÂ  do hear sayÂÂ  or rumors, What I have said is not here say or rumors. every thing IÂÂ  say comes from websites. Not by the jurisdiction that you say are not Orthodox But by yours and the main stream Orthodox Churches and their websitesÂÂ  




It has at least attempted to unite American Orthodoxy.  Even though it hasn't succeded, that does not make them worthless.

There are better things to spend ones time doing.


Reader Nikolai

the only person that I'll give credit to is Metropolitan Iakovos for efford to have one American Orthodox Church. but was forced in to retirement, by the Patriarch of Constantinople. This is not hear say or rumor
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« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2006, 06:33:44 PM »

Quote
the only person that I'll give credit to is Metropolitan Iakovos for efford to have one American Orthodox Church.

And it can be said with certainty that your jurisdiction would not have been in the one American Orthodox Church...
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« Reply #126 on: June 11, 2006, 07:10:02 PM »

Yes, I was going to say that Archbishop Iakovos didn't recognise as Orthodox or concelebrate with any of the little churches that produced Mr Hood's church. Walter Propheta, for example, wasn't invited to join SCOBA. ROCOR was.
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« Reply #127 on: June 11, 2006, 07:34:03 PM »

Fr Andrew,

If you want Orthodox unity, you are only one step away: join a recognized Orthodox Church.  There's no reason for you to be separate.  You have the power to make Orthodox unity one step closer.

Anastasios
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« Reply #128 on: June 11, 2006, 08:19:42 PM »

Yes, I was going to say that Archbishop Iakovos didn't recognise as Orthodox or concelebrate with any of the little churches that produced Mr Hood's church. Walter Propheta, for example, wasn't invited to join SCOBA. ROCOR was.

As I have said. This Jurisdiction came out from the Russia Orthodox Church, and not one can say other wise. Not even Rocor



Walter Propheta, for example, wasn't invited to join SCOBA

is that by your hear say or some one else hear say


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« Reply #129 on: June 11, 2006, 08:27:26 PM »

I thought you didn't care what we or SCOBA thought of you, Mr Hood. So why do you keep posting? Why do you need us to 'validate' your pose? Shouldn't you be ministering to people or something?

By the time SCOBA started, the little groups that started your church were already at least two removes from the Russian Orthodox Church. As we've repeatedly told you, 'lines of succession' outside the Orthodox communion are meaningless to that communion. So those groups, including Propheta's, never were asked to join SCOBA.

Haven't we fed this guy's need for attention long enough?
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« Reply #130 on: June 11, 2006, 08:31:08 PM »

The reason I didn't mention Moscow's Patriarchal Parishes in the US (I think that's their formal name) is because they are in SCOBA by proxy, represented by the OCA.
Actually, the Moscow Patriarchate still has parishes in the U.S. that were never transferred to the OCA.  How does the OCA represent these MP parishes in SCOBA?  (Man, it seems we Orthodox love acronyms just as much as the U.S. government!  Roll Eyes)
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« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2006, 08:41:25 PM »

Quote
(Man, it seems we Orthodox love acronyms just as much as the U.S. government!  )

...Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P.... 

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« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2006, 08:53:21 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123927#msg123927 date=1150072885]
...Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P.... 


[/quote]
L.O.L.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2006, 09:30:19 PM »


He obviously wants to be 'validated' (ha ha) in his pose as a priest.


I am Valid and no matter what you any one else says



This guy obviously has no theology or real education, just a bunch of 'B.S.' he picked up from somewhere (probably some harebrained correspondence-course 'seminary') about having 'canonical lines' and obsesses about, and no actual ministry, and then barges in here demanding to be respected like a real priest...


I didn't come here to seek any ones repect or make demands. Plus I am not a showboater either.

I came here to make  comments on what I have read. what I have been told and seen.

As for our seminary.it may not have been a Big seminary as like Saint Tikons. but at least our Bishops did the best they could do


Kindly p*ss off, Mr Hood.


No
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« Reply #134 on: June 11, 2006, 10:01:56 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123909#msg123909 date=1150065224]
And it can be said with certainty that your jurisdiction would not have been in the one American Orthodox Church...
[/quote]ÂÂ  
Once again you have missed the point. Iakovos wanted to bring (ALL) Orthodox Churches even the ones that are not recongnized or may not have perfect canonical lines together, as one American Orthodox Church. where there is no Greek Orthodox Church ,no syrian orthodox church,or Ukrainian Orthodox and so on. But under One Metropolitan or Patriarch if one can ever be appointed. but their are alot of lay people that don't want to see one American Orthodox church. becuse all the ethnics say that they'll loose their ethnic back ground and their ethnic festival. Plus they also don't want to see a Greek or Russian Bishop and so on to be head of that Church,  They would rather see a Bishop who doesn't have a foreign back ground but have a true amercain background
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