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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2006, 02:15:27 AM »

There's an offensive internet practice known as trolling - posting on an internet discussion forum with the sole intent to offend other posters or to pick a fight.  Father Paul Andrew, what you're doing here certainly looks like this.
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« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2006, 06:50:54 AM »

I just realized whats wrong in the Orthodox Chuch today. There is no christian Love do, to Priests that think they are Better than others.

Jolly good, Mr Hood. Then stop playing at being Orthodox and run along. They obviously aren't worth your emulation.  Wink

Quote
For exsample Main Stream churchs, The OCA, Rocor, The Greek orthodox Church in America and so on. They have to much pride in them selfs and they think that they are better than the Independent Orthodox Churches.


They are what they are and like anybody don't like it when people pretend to be something they're not, rather like the American Medical Association feel about that old guy in Florida who recently got busted for impersonating a doctor, offering the ladies free breast and genital exams.

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These so called Goody two shose Priests like to use the words like (vagants) and wannabe


Those goody-two-shoes people who did the work and got medical degrees have the garbanzos to deny that old perv is really one of them. So it is here.

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The word vangante is not a word at all since it is not in the Distionary  Smiley. I think this is their new words that they have put in to the canon laws.


So what and no.

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They have to realize that Being Orthodox is not being in communion with another Orthodox church.


Pretty convenient for the game you're trying to play, Mr Hood, but no.

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The word communion is for taking the body and Blood of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ who is the Church High Priest of the Church, who we are incommunion with.
 

'I'm a doctor because  I SAY I am!' - that old saddo in the Sunshine State

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The Church is not a building the Church is people coming toegther in one Belief in Jesus christ.


Funny, Mr Hood, I don't remember you answering simple, general (not invading people's privacy) questions on any actual people you claim to minister to. Your website doesn't even list service times. And the schedule of services you wrote (Sundays and Christmas... and that's it) doesn't match what a real Orthodox priest does.

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You don't have to be incommunion with a building that has a name.


Red herring. Your bishop isn't in communion with Orthodox bishops - people not buildings.

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Like The OCA,or Russian or Greek.or Syrian, or AOC.


Sounds like somebody who couldn't or never tried to get into a real seminary or be sponsored at one by a real bishop.

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being in communion  is that All orthodox Churches are in communion togther by Belief and faith.


But that's just like the Protestants and their 'invisible church'.

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it not by who is who or who is better.


Red herring. 'Better' is nothing to do with it. It's to do with what is and what is not. And you and your little church simply are not Orthodox.

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Plus just because a person learns in a small seminary in stead of a large Seminary does not make him any lesser of a priest than a Priest from a larger Seminary.


Right, so which little seminary did you go to? Is it accredited? Meaning, does it grant degrees everybody else recognises? Or is it simply a clergy-training school? (To be fair the real Orthodox have had schools that aren't accredited - that simply train Orthodox priests.)

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I am Paul I am an Orthodox Priest,I am not a Mister.


You are not an Orthodox priest because your bishops aren't on the diptychs of any recognised Orthodox church. To the Orthodox, 'lines of succession' outside their fellowship mean crap. And Rome recognises the Orthodox' 'power of the keys' to recognise or not recognise such things. So guess what, Mr H? You're not a priest. And since I see no proof you have a real ministry to people I'm not going to extend the courtesy of treating you like one.

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I was ordained in sucession through the Apostles and Jesus Christ.

Get it into your head - to the Orthodox your 'succession' is meaningless.

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I an not a vangante or a wannbe for Christ is my Arch Priest and Bishop through him and my belief is the Church and  I serve the people, People do not serve me. The orthodox people are the Church as the church is Jesus christ.  Smiley

Oh, so now Jesus is your bishop. Next...

Again, who are these people you serve? Where geographically? How many? What are their backgrounds? Has your church got ANY born members? Real Orthodox jurisdictions do.
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« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2006, 09:08:52 AM »

YoungFogey:

You seem to be enjoying this too much. this guy is beginning to run in circles with his logic and he protests too much. Let's all go have a beer or lager and then move on!


Goodbye Mr. Hood.

Wasn't that a movie?
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« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2006, 09:43:57 AM »

Is it too early for a martini?
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« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2006, 10:03:55 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9194.msg123316#msg123316 date=1149687837]
Is it too early for a martini?
[/quote]

Yes. Unless you're Winston Churchill...and then you would be drinking scotch and soda as breakfast in bed.

(I once heard Sir Martin Gilbert, Churchill's official biographer, say that Churchill must have had alcohol in his blood 24 hours a day)
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« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2006, 10:06:38 AM »

No, I am not Sir Winston, but I am going to go clip the end ofÂÂ good cigar now anyway.  Cheesy
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« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2006, 10:59:44 AM »

Hi, Demetri

Long time, no read.

Hope all is well.

Ebor
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« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2006, 12:40:08 PM »

Well, I've been away for the past several days, but just to add a quick thought.  Yes, online Orthodox seem like a nasty bunch.  That is why I'm not for online ORthodoxy what so ever.  Although, I think forums have great value and my learning has increased exponentially by here and other sites, it is not Orthodoxy.  Rather, imho, it is a bunch of grumpy men that have gathered to drink and talk Wink  Cool.  Still, my point is I have only once seen real Orthodox Christians get polemical in rl.  So online there may not seem like there is any love here.  However, if you have experienced Orthodoxy in real life that would probably not be your your first assumption.  Believe it or not, most people do not talk about their jurisidiction against the world or this practice against everyone else.  Rather, it's usually something like, "Man I'm tired of bliny, whoops here comes Matushka, smile about the pancakes!" or "Hey, have you seen such move?"  And people almost never (although I have seen it done once) come into a church and damn everyone in it. 

I just get annoyed when I see such comments from Paul Andrew or Anastasiya that say there is no love in Orthodoxy.  Just because we are sticking to our beliefs and because we bicker online doesn't mean there is no love.  Rather, it means that they most likely have not had much interaction with real Orthodox people.  For all my experiences in Orthodox churches have been quite to the contrary.

Daniel
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« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2006, 12:50:13 PM »

Online Orthodox can be nasty and crazy but that wasn't what was happening here: those two, particularly Mr Hood, were only angry that this board and real Orthodox in general wouldn't play along with their game of pretending to be Orthodox priests and nuns.
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« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2006, 12:53:22 PM »

Well, I've been away for the past several days, but just to add a quick thought.ÂÂ  Yes, online Orthodox seem like a nasty bunch.ÂÂ  That is why I'm not for online ORthodoxy what so ever.ÂÂ  Although, I think forums have great value and my learning has increased exponentially by here and other sites, it is not Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  Rather, imho, it is a bunch of grumpy men that have gathered to drink and talk WinkÂÂ  Cool.ÂÂ  Still, my point is I have only once seen real Orthodox Christians get polemical in rl.ÂÂ  So online there may not seem like there is any love here.ÂÂ  However, if you have experienced Orthodoxy in real life that would probably not be your your first assumption.ÂÂ  Believe it or not, most people do not talk about their jurisidiction against the world or this practice against everyone else.ÂÂ  Rather, it's usually something like, "Man I'm tired of bliny, whoops here comes Matushka, smile about the pancakes!" or "Hey, have you seen such move?"ÂÂ  And people almost never (although I have seen it done once) come into a church and damn everyone in it.ÂÂ  

I just get annoyed when I see such comments from Paul Andrew or Anastasiya that say there is no love in Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  Just because we are sticking to our beliefs and because we bicker online doesn't mean there is no love.ÂÂ  Rather, it means that they most likely have not had much interaction with real Orthodox people.ÂÂ  For all my experiences in Orthodox churches have been quite to the contrary.

Daniel

I think the greatest factor contributing to the "attitude" we Orthodox have on forums is the anonymity.  We will never speak to most of the people we meet here in real life, so we don't really care if we offend them.  Sometimes, we may even subconsiously treat people as if they are not real. Due to this, I feel that it's very easy to come off as rude and nasty. We also don't have the ability to express the body language that normaly accompanies our world in the real world, so even if we don't mean to be rude, we can appear that way.

I urge anyone who looks at the negative stuff they see on this forum, and realize that we are not really like this in real life.

In Christ,
Reader Nikolai

edit: I must also add that "Father" Paul Andrew was also being quite rude himself.  His OP seemed to be based on getting everyone to agree with him, and would attack if anyone challenged him.
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« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2006, 01:50:23 PM »

Quote
I must also add that "Father" Paul Andrew was also being quite rude himself.  His OP seemed to be based on getting everyone to agree with him, and would attack if anyone challenged him.

Exactly!
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« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2006, 01:56:09 PM »

Oh yes,
I agree with both sentements above.  And to show the flip side although online people can get nasty, normally the conversations are pretty civil.  Usually it is only a select few that do and they continue to repeat.  However, my point was that I find it offencive when people come here and accuse us of being haters because they have no experience in real Orthodox Churches.  It is a magnificant display of arrogance.  However, most Orthodox Christians are very friendly people.  And you want to know the truth, most people in general are friendly people whatever religion, ethnic, etc.  Just please don't come here and call all Orthodox unloving because you have minimal experience with real Orthodox churches or because we refuse to lower our standards and set aside our beliefs so it can be a I love you and you love me fest.
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« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2006, 03:48:50 PM »

Well I really don't care what you guys say. I didn't start the nasty grap. You can call me what ever you want. But most of you have shown how less you are of being Orthodox. In my first posting I wrote what I have read. What I have heard. what I have seen. I did not come here looking for a free pass or any thing else for that matter. so what if you now more than I do I really don't care.ÂÂ  So no matter what you or your Bishops say, we'll continue to do what we were ordained to do. Plus I really don't care if my Jurisdiction isn't recognized by you. doesn't hurt me one bit. As for our website it is not finished.
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« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2006, 04:06:29 PM »

Is this your church?

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/American_Orthodox_Catholic_Church
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« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2006, 04:18:33 PM »

Well I really don't care what you guys say.

Then Mr. Andrew, why did you start this thread?  I'm sorry, but if it wasn't to have us agree that the AOCC is a "valid" jurisdiction, then there wasn't much reason?

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I didn't start the nasty grap.

No, you mearly became rabidly defensive and insulting when confroted with valid disagreement.
 
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You can call me what ever you want. But most of you have shown how less you are of being Orthodox.

I don't believe anyone called you any names.  Everyone was mearly stating what you are not (the way of negation)
 
Quote
In my first posting I wrote what I have read. What I have heard. what I have seen. I did not come here looking for a free pass or any thing else for that matter.

Again I will ask, what was the purpose of this thread then?

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so what if you now more than I do I really don't care.ÂÂ  So no matter what you or your Bishops say, we'll continue to do what we were ordained to do.

The problem many of us have is that those who "ordained" you had no authority to ordain you. As they were excommunicated.

Quote
Plus I really don't care if my Jurisdiction isn't recognized by you. doesn't hurt me one bit. As for our website it is not finished.

You perfectly allowed to not care, that however is to your own detriment. There is no reason for you "jurisdiction" to exist.  There was a time in the history of Orthodoxy in America where there were some confusing canonical circumstances, but that time is over.  There is no reason for you not to be in one of the Canonical Jurisdictions.

Forgive me if I was blunt, but I cannot do anything other than defend Canonical Orthodoxy.


Reader Nikolai
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« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2006, 04:22:56 PM »

TomS, yes, that's it.
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« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2006, 09:47:24 PM »

I think another thread has already turned into that.  Grin
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9068.0

Ugh, don't remind me!  Wink Grin

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9194.msg123319#msg123319 date=1149689198]
No, I am not Sir Winston, but I am going to go clip the end of good cigar now anyway.  Cheesy
[/quote]

Demetri!  Nice to see you(r avatar) around again!
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« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2006, 11:18:07 PM »


For most of this link the answer is Yes. To the part that talks about THEOCACNA.INC this is not us. That guys is not Orthodox all he has done is sue other Jurisdictions
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« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2006, 01:52:22 AM »

No, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that ANY Orthodox Bishop in this country (or the world for that matter) recognizes your bishops.  Sorry, but that's the way it goes.

Everyone simply claims the fulness of canonicity for his own position and, in the name of it, condemns and denounces as uncanonical the ecclesiastical status of others. And one is amazed by the low level and cynicism of these "canonical" fights in which any insinuation, any distortion is permitted as long as it harms the "enemy."

The concern here is not for truth, but for victories in the form of parishes, bishops, priests "shifting" jurisdictions and joining the "canonical" one. It does not matter that the same bishop or priest was condemning yesterday what today he praises as canonical, that the real motivations behind all these transfers have seldom anything to do with canonical convictions; what matters is victory.

We live in the poisoned atmosphere of anathemas and excommunications, court cases and litigations, dubious consecrations of dubious bishops, hatred, calumny, lies! But do we think about the irreparable moral damage all this inflicts to our people?


http://www.jacwell.org/Fall_Winter99/Fr_Schmemann_The_canonical_problem.htm  OCA
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« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2006, 02:16:38 AM »

Outside the context of their church, the Orthodox say, such 'lines' mean nothing and no amount of pleading or badgering can change that.

When the boys came out to play
Vagante Poseur ran away.

The actual word "Vagante" actually means, "A vagrant bishop without a See or diocese",  I believe Jesus was qualified for this title, according to the pharisees. 

The larger mega-churches such as those who belong to either the Vatican based Roman Church, or one of the Patriarchates; would have you believe that unless you belong to either one of the two Jurisdictions, you are not in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of truth.  This is unkind and not true whatsoever.

...some of the Eastern Orthodox Churches take an arrogant, often elitist approach in which they do not necessarily believe that the Church is large enough to accommodate various philosophies, and even theologies, that are not diametrically opposed to the faith and morals taught by the Apostolic Church, forcing their own by actions of intimidation, and often through newsletters or notices to the faithful with untruthful claims and inaccurate statements about those not under them or one of the primary Patriarchs directly.
http://www.apostle1.com/Vagante1.htm
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« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2006, 02:32:17 AM »

I just get annoyed when I see such comments from Paul Andrew or Anastasiya that say there is no love in Orthodoxy.  Just because we are sticking to our beliefs and because we bicker online doesn't mean there is no love. 
Daniel

    Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous,  is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude.....

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« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2006, 02:53:40 AM »

I must also add that "Father" Paul Andrew was also being quite rude himself.  His OP seemed to be based on getting everyone to agree with him, and would attack if anyone challenged him.

I can sympathize with Father Paul.  Here is a man who has given his  life to Christ, following Him in the simplicity of his heart, like a simple minded fisherman, and he posts a thread that desperately needs to be addressed on this forum.

He is in turn met with callous disrespect, degrading metaphors,  and a complete denial of his holy orders as well as attacks against his bishop and hierarchs??

And those who are doing these things with impunity,  present themselves as authoritative representatives of Christ's true church??   

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« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2006, 03:02:31 AM »

But most of you have shown how less you are of being Orthodox.

We teach our children to be "proud" of Orthodoxy, we constantly congratulate ourselves about all kinds of historic events and achievements, our church publications distill an almost unbearable triumphalism and optimism, yet, if we were true to the spirit of our faith we ought to repent in "sackcloth and ashes," we ought to cry day and night about the sad, the tragical state of our Church.

If "canonicity" is anything but a pharisaic and legalistic self-righteousness, if it has anything to do with the spirit of Christ and the tradition of His Body, the Church, we must openly proclaim that the situation in which we all live is utterly uncanonical regardless of all the justifications and sanctions that every one finds for his "position." For nothing can justify the bare fact: Our Church is divided.

http://www.jacwell.org/Fall_Winter99/Fr_Schmemann_The_canonical_problem.htm  OCA

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« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2006, 06:48:29 AM »

Have you no sense of irony, Mr Hood?

Of course 'THEOCACNA' aren't Orthodox and neither is your church. Which isn't necessarily a presumption of judgement on people's personalities, characters or souls. It's simply fact, like the minister at the Protestant church across the street from my house isn't Orthodox.

I was going to post that Mother Anastasia (using the courtesy title, etc., as I don't know her real name) is somewhat better as in some postings she admits she doesn't know a lot about Orthodoxy, asks questions and listens to the answers, even if she goes on and believes what she did in the first place. But here she's disabused me of that.

At least she and her husband have a ministry to people. Maybe they joined something they honestly thought was Orthodox (many people don't know much about the real Orthodox) and were lied to. But the arrogance beneath the sweet spacey-niceness of her posts suggests she's not ignorant now.

Jesus was God, dear, not somebody bragging about being a Orthodox priest or nun and demanding to be called that. Remember what he said about wanting to be shown respect and called titles?

Friends, if these two are an Orthodox priest and nun then this creepy dude is the Patriarch of Moscow. (Classic vagante game-playing. Like the 'Russian Orthodox' church I saw online complete with three-bar cross dedicated to 'St' Mychal Judge, meaning 'we're gay ex-RCs'.)
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« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2006, 11:09:49 AM »


We live in the poisoned atmosphere of anathemas and excommunications, court cases and litigations, dubious consecrations of dubious bishops, hatred, calumny, lies! But do we think about the irreparable moral damage all this inflicts to our people?


http://www.jacwell.org/Fall_Winter99/Fr_Schmemann_The_canonical_problem.htmÂÂ  OCA

Ah, poor Fr. Schmemann. Sigh. I suppose such is the fate of all text: It acquires a status all its own. Thus, completely divorced from authorial intent, generic limitation and its context, it can be twisted to any misappropriated application.

Mother Anastasia, Fr. Schmemann was actually referring to the many difficulties experienced in Orthodox America BECAUSE OF groups quite similar to the para-church organizations you think you are defending by quoting his article. The "dubious consecrations of dubious bishops", the "court cases and litigations" -- he's talking about groups like the Living Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Church) and some of the Ukrainian Churches, not his fellow con-celebrants from the Eastern Orthodox communion. Furthermore, when he is not writing about these groups (which he condemns soundly), he is criticizing specific controversies within his communion, NOT defending willfully schismatic groups, with which Fr. Schmemann maintained no con-celebration and certainly would not defend as actual recipients or advocates of the Truth he ardently upholds. Thus, none of his arguments defend your position. In fact, they oppose it.

If you read Fr. Schmemann's article attentively (and in its context), you will realize that he is by no means against the canons, canonicity or the officially defined canonical Church. In fact, he is a defender of that Church. His criticism is not directed at SCOBA, which he helped to found, nor even against those canonical Churches that did not ultimately recognize the OCA's autocephaly. His criticism is against the incorrect interpretation and false application of the canonical tradition in specific cases -- an error which, unfortunately, your Church suffers from in spades. Please read his article for its real message, not your own ends or self-justification. His is a call to full canonicity, i.e. canonical unity in the diaspora (something that he obviously and rightly believed could ONLY happen in SCOBA).
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« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2006, 05:10:54 PM »

2.  Jesus was God, dear,

1.  not somebody bragging about being a Orthodox priest or nun and demanding to be called that. Remember what he said about wanting to be shown respect and called titles?

1.  You have heard but you have not understood.

I was addressing the desparity of Christian behavior and charity, not the super abundance of knowledge and pedigrees.

2.  If you truly believe this, and are standing in a place of being His representative, by defining what is true orthodoxy and what is not, should you  not, even more than others, be reflecting the mercy and charity of a tender father who is concerned over the errors of his children?

Hospitality vs Rejection

Mercy vs Judgement

Charity vs Rancor & Bitterness

Instruction vs Condemnation

In short, thinking better of our brother, than we think of ourselves. He may be perfect in all ways but one, his canonical status.

In the Lord's eyes, he may be "Blessed",  who are we to judge another Man's servant?
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« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2006, 05:30:22 PM »

The gospel according to you:

Anybody who doesn't play along with your lies is a big blue meanie without the love of God in his heart. 

Ooookaaaay...

The Orthodox themselves define who's Orthodox.

And you're not.
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« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2006, 06:22:05 PM »

On second thought I believe he ordained two of the bishops before the marriage.  Some came later though.  At any rate, he was excommunicated and they stayed in communion with him, thus incurring his penalty.

Anastasios

Since there is no document that show Aftimios being excommunicated. Puls his own Synod didn't excommunicated, it show that it is all hear say and not valid. No Patriarch.metropolitan or Bishop can interfer in another Jurisdiction Affairs.
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« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2006, 06:35:57 PM »

You say that Aftimios was excommunicated. There has been no such document see[n] or given. Plus no Patriarch or Metropolitan or Bishop can interfer[e] in the [a]ffairs of another [j]urisdiction. Plus since no excommunicated document was sent or given to Aftimios, said document is indeed not va[l]id

I don't think it works that way. I'm fairly sure there are records from the registry office where he was married. That may have automatically excommunicated him.

In any event, after about 1933 he wasn't an Orthodox bishop anymore.
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« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2006, 07:08:05 PM »

I don't think it works that way. I'm fairly sure there are records from the registry office where he was married. That may have automatically excommunicated him.

In any event, after about 1933 he wasn't an Orthodox bishop anymore.

Aftimios steped down as Metropolitan of the American orthodox catholic church By Canon law
and since there is no valid ecommunication. He did what was right.

so with every one saying Aftimios was ex-communicted is all hear say

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« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2006, 07:32:37 PM »

Aftimios as a bishop was also a monk. Monks cannot marry in the Orthodox Church--ever. NEVER. PERIOD. AT ALL. EVER. NO DISPENSATION. PERIOD.*  So by doing so, he excommunicated himself. No need for a document to specify that--he committed a sin that kept him away from communion so he was "excommunicated."

Anyone who communed with him supported him and was hence also excommunicated. This is how the holy canons in Orthodoxy work.

Anastasios

(* The only case where I have ever heard of this happening was Johaan Von Gardener, but I am not sure if he was allowed to commune after his marriage.  I suppose it may have happened somewhere in history that an already married monk with a family repented and may have been allowed to return to communion, but the fact that I have never in all of my readings or studies found such an example confirms in my mind the consistency of Orthodoxy on this point).
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« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2006, 08:01:17 PM »

some of you guys make me sick. you call yourselves Orthodox because your in a major Orthodox Church. and that everything you say and do is canonical. You use the canon law when it suites you when being threaten by Independent Orthodox Jurisdiction which you say they are Vangantes and wannabe clergy. you people misuse the Canon laws. By  who's authority  gives you the right to say who is and who isn't Orthodox.

I'll tell you , not the church not canon law, it is all by your interpation.

The Independent Jurisdtion who are Orthodox, do not have to be incommunion with Main Stream Churches or be long to Scoba, which I have heard is only a coffee club. What has Scoba done for Orthodoxy in America nothing.

take my advice and go to this web page http://www.apostle1.com/Vagante1.htm and do some reading
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« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2006, 08:05:06 PM »

Aftimios as a bishop was also a monk. Monks cannot marry in the Orthodox Church--ever. NEVER. PERIOD. AT ALL. EVER. NO DISPENSATION. PERIOD.*ÂÂ  So by doing so, he excommunicated himself. No need for a document to specify that--he committed a sin that kept him away from communion so he was "excommunicated."

Anyone who communed with him supported him and was hence also excommunicated. This is how the holy canons in Orthodoxy work.

Anastasios

(* The only case where I have ever heard of this happening was Johaan Von Gardener, but I am not sure if he was allowed to commune after his marriage.ÂÂ  I suppose it may have happened somewhere in history that an already married monk with a family repented and may have been allowed to return to communion, but the fact that I have never in all of my readings or studies found such an example confirms in my mind the consistency of Orthodoxy on this point).



Then I guess it is the same with the Syrian Orthodox Church that stayed in-communion with him, does this make them
Ex-communicated as well.
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« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2006, 08:14:17 PM »

some of you guys make me sick. you call yourselves Orthodox because your in a major Orthodox Church.

We are in THE Orthodox Church.

Quote
and that everything you say and do is canonical. You use the canon law when it suites you when being threaten by Independent Orthodox Jurisdiction

I'm sorry Mr. Andrew, there is no such thing as an "Independant Orthodox jurisdiction", the very concept goes against Orthodox Ecclesiology.

Quote
which you say the are Vangantes and wannabe clergy. you people misuse the Canon laws. By  who's authority  gives you the right to say who is and who isn't Orthodox. I'll tell you , not the church not canon law, it is all by your interpation.

Sir, you need to understand something, You are either Orthodox or you are not.  If a group with no canonical backing suddenly shows up and declares that it is Orthodox, it must be able to prove this. As you cannot, you are not Orthodox.  It's very simple.  I'm sorry if that offends you. But, it's the truth.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Quote
The Independent Jurisdtion who are Orthodox, do not have to be incommunion with Main Stream Churches or be long to Scoba, which I have heard is only a coffee club.

Hmmmmm... So, when you run out of arguments you just resort to hearsay and rumours.

Quote
What has Scoba done for Orthodoxy in America nothing.

It has at least attempted to unite American Orthodoxy.  Even though it hasn't succeded, that does not make them worthless.

Quote
take my advice and go to this web page http://www.apostle1.com/Vagante1.htm and do some reading

There are better things to spend ones time doing.


Reader Nikolai
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« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2006, 08:44:17 PM »




Then I guess it is the same with the Syrian Orthodox Church that stayed in-communion with him, does this make them
Ex-communicated as well.

Yes. And by the way, just for the record, I am not a member of a SCOBA jurisdiction. I am a Greek Old Calendarist. However, I still cannot accept your position because it is not Orthodox.

I believe you need a better understanding of what canons are and what their spiritual implications are. I'd suggest you read "Spiritual Dimensions of the Holy Canons" by Lewis Patsavos, Holy Cross Press, 2004. A very short and consise explanation.

Anastasios
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« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2006, 10:22:57 PM »

We are in THE Orthodox Church.

I'm sorry Mr. Andrew, there is no such thing as an "Independant Orthodox jurisdiction", the very concept goes against Orthodox Ecclesiology.

Sir, you need to understand something, You are either Orthodox or you are not.  If a group with no canonical backing suddenly shows up and declares that it is Orthodox, it must be able to prove this. As you cannot, you are not Orthodox.  It's very simple.  I'm sorry if that offends you. But, it's the truth.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Hmmmmm... So, when you run out of arguments you just resort to hearsay and rumours.

It has at least attempted to unite American Orthodoxy.  Even though it hasn't succeded, that does not make them worthless.

There are better things to spend ones time doing.


Reader Nikolai
[/quot


I disagree with you.

One. it was The Russian Orthodox Church that created The American Orthodox Catholic Church as signed my the Ruling Hiearchs of the Russian Orthodox Church in America. The American Orthodox Catholic Catholic Church by All rights is and remains Orthodox. and follows  all the Canon Laws of the seven Eumenical Councils. You want to talk about canon Law. when The Russian Orthodox Church in America gave the American Orthodox Catholic Church it's Autonomy. Makes this Church the first American orthodox Church in America. By Canon Law. the ruling Hiearchs and all Bishop and Priest and Deacons and Lower clergy in America should have come under the jurisdiction of the new Church. So says Canon Law.

2. Since The American Orthodox Catholic Church is Autophelous Autonomous Jurisdiction by it's right by Canon Law. The other Orthodox Jurisdiction that came in to this Country violated Canon Law and setting up their own Jurisdiction also violated Canon Law.

3. Since The OCA aka Russian Orthodox Greek Cathoolic Church was gaven it's Autonomy By the Then Communist Church in Russia it also Violted Canon Law by creating another Autophelous Orthodox Church in America.
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« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2006, 10:32:25 PM »

Father Paul,

When making quotes, make sure to write your text below the part that is [/quote] so that your text does not show up in the quote.

Anastasios
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« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2006, 10:34:04 PM »

Fr Paul and Mother Anastasia,

I ask this in all sincerity. This group:

http://come.to/moorishorthodoxy

claims to have apostolic succession but is a kind of Gnostic/Muslim/Orthodox amalgamation.  Are they part of the Church in some way too?  I realize this is an extreme example but would like to know where you draw the line.

Anastasios
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« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2006, 10:36:10 PM »

Yes. And by the way, just for the record, I am not a member of a SCOBA jurisdiction. I am a Greek Old Calendarist. However, I still cannot accept your position because it is not Orthodox.

I believe you need a better understanding of what canons are and what their spiritual implications are. I'd suggest you read "Spiritual Dimensions of the Holy Canons" by Lewis Patsavos, Holy Cross Press, 2004. A very short and consise explanation.

Anastasios

Well my friend since you too think I am not Orthodox I could say the same to you. But since I can't do to that Metropolitan Joachim Souris Of Blessed Memory was the Metropolitan of Athens Greece for the Old Calandar Church and Co-consecrator to one of our former Metropolitan, Metroplitan Walter Propheta of Blessed Memory and who was Spiritual Father to my Former Metroplitan Demitrius J King Former Metropolitan of Los Angeles an all North America
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« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2006, 10:51:44 PM »

Fr Paul and Mother Anastasia,

I ask this in all sincerity. This group:

http://come.to/moorishorthodoxy

claims to have apostolic succession but is a kind of Gnostic/Muslim/Orthodox amalgamation.  Are they part of the Church in some way too?  I realize this is an extreme example but would like to know where you draw the line.

Anastasios

Dear Anastasios,

Thank you for charitably posing this question. 

I am going to begin a thread on this topic, but I am praying for wisdom in how to word it.

Please pray for me.

In His loving kindness, your sister in Christ,

Mother Anastasia
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« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2006, 11:10:35 PM »

Well my friend since you too think I am not Orthodox I could say the same to you. But since I can't do to that Metropolitan Joachim Souris Of Blessed Memory was the Metropolitan of Athens Greece for the Old Calandar Church and Co-consecrator to one of our former Metropolitan, Metroplitan Walter Propheta of Blessed Memory and who was Spiritual Father to my Former Metroplitan Demitrius J King Former Metropolitan of Los Angeles an all North America

 Wink Don't worry, there are at least a few of us who are skeptical or think his Orthodoxy is dubious....and I'd be rather surprised if he wasn't aware of this or even felt that same way as most of us as well!  But of course, none of us are saying that he or the other (just you and Mother Anastasia) are sick or mean.
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« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2006, 11:38:38 PM »

Wink Don't worry, there are at least a few of us who are skeptical or think his Orthodoxy is dubious....and I'd be rather surprised if he wasn't aware of this or even felt that same way as most of us as well!ÂÂ  But of course, none of us are saying that he or the other (just you and Mother Anastasia) are sick or mean.

Anastasios' Jurisdiction and the AOCC are two completly different animals.  The GOC has canonically ordained bishops who are in schism over matters of faith. (which I happen to disagree with, they however have much more respect from me than some wannabe Orthodox pretenders) The AOCC is still clinging onto a dead line of sucession from a self-excommunicated bishop.
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« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2006, 03:02:18 AM »

When St. Irenaeus of Lyons needed to confront the Gnostic heretics, he did so by appealing to the institution of the Church and by pointing out how the heretics were not part of the institutional Church.  St. Cyprian made the same appeal to the visible instituation of the Church when he confronted the Novatian schismatics and denied the validity of their baptisms.

Today we have a plethora of pseudo-Orthodox sects who claim to be Orthodox and argue that we show hatred and judgmentalism when we continue to proclaim their excommunicated status.  However, should we not follow the examples of the great saints Irenaeus and Cyprian by pointing out how these sects cannot be Orthodox because they are not in communion with the institutional Church?
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« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2006, 03:11:27 AM »

some of you guys make me sick. you call yourselves Orthodox because your in a major Orthodox Church. and that everything you say and do is canonical. You use the canon law when it suites you when being threaten by Independent Orthodox Jurisdiction which you say they are Vangantes and wannabe clergy. you people misuse the Canon laws. By  who's authority  gives you the right to say who is and who isn't Orthodox.

I'll tell you , not the church not canon law, it is all by your interpation.

The Independent Jurisdtion who are Orthodox, do not have to be incommunion with Main Stream Churches or be long to Scoba, which I have heard is only a coffee club. What has Scoba done for Orthodoxy in America nothing.

take my advice and go to this web page http://www.apostle1.com/Vagante1.htm and do some reading

Does the Russian Orthodox Church, from whom you supposedly gained your right to exist, recognize the validity of your group? Do you concelebrate with your "mother" Church? If not, why not?

(This is rhetorical, of course).

P.S.
Good thing canonical status isn't judged by spelling and grammar, eh?  Wink
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« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2006, 03:47:30 AM »

Anastasios' Jurisdiction and the AOCC are two completly different animals.ÂÂ  The GOC has canonically ordained bishops who are in schism over matters of faith. (which I happen to disagree with, they however have much more respect from me than some wannabe Orthodox pretenders) The AOCC is still clinging onto a dead line of sucession from a self-excommunicated bishop.

You must have a one track mind which is stuck on tape one saying ex-communication over and over
If Aftimios's wife who passed either in 1999 0r 2000. any way if she was still here and if she heard the
way you talk about her husband she would most likely smack you clear a round a Pole. ÂÂ
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