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The young fogey
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« Reply #135 on: June 11, 2006, 10:06:04 PM »

Actually, the Moscow Patriarchate still has parishes in the U.S. that were never transferred to the OCA.  How does the OCA represent these MP parishes in SCOBA?  (Man, it seems we Orthodox love acronyms just as much as the U.S. government!  Roll Eyes)

Yes, I know that. That they are represented by proxy by the OCA in SCOBA is part of the agreement that turned the old Russian metropolia into the OCA in 1970. The Patriarchal Parishes were left over from a 1940s attempted takeover of the metropolia's parishes by the Soviets and there were still hard feelings. So when ecclesiastical détente happened around 1970 between the Moscow Patriarchate and the metropolia, when the patriarchate granted the metropolia its independence, a few things were agreed upon:

• The Patriarchial Parishes were listed by name in the document creating the OCA, which says they are to be left as they were, under Moscow, not forced to join the OCA.
• Moscow promised not to start more Patriarchal Parishes — it is not competing with the OCA.
• The Patriarchal Parishes technically aren't a diocese but an exarchate - again, no overlap with the OCA. The MP bishop in the US isn't a territorial one (diocesan, eparch) but an exarch.
• In SCOBA the Patriarchal Parishes are represented by the MP's designated successor in the US, the OCA.
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« Reply #136 on: June 11, 2006, 10:14:36 PM »

 
Once again you have missed the point. Iakovos wanted to bring (ALL) Orthodox Churches even the ones that are not recongnized or may not have perfect canonical lines together, as one American Orthodox Church. where there is no Grrek Orthodox Church ,no syrian orthodox church,or Ukrainian Orthodox and so on. But under One Metropolitan or Patriarch if one can ever be appointed

He wanted groups like yours to join the actual Orthodox communion - not specifically his Greek part of it or a Russian part, etc. He didn't accept such groups as Orthodox as they were, the claim you seem to be trying to make. That makes no sense according to Orthodox theology.
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« Reply #137 on: June 11, 2006, 10:50:27 PM »

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Iakovos wanted to bring (ALL) Orthodox Churches even the ones that are not recongnized or may not have perfect canonical lines together, as one American Orthodox Church.

Then what is stopping you from joining the OCA or GOA then? 
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Bishop Paul Andrew
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« Reply #138 on: June 11, 2006, 11:18:57 PM »

hmmmm. I believe everyone here was giving very straight answers.ÂÂ  You just don't agree with them.

no they haven't .like this post that you answered.
 all I get is hear says from them.
I aked one question that was not answer by them, that question was by what right do they who is not Orthodox andÂÂ  by who's Authority
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 02:01:24 AM by Father Paul Andrew » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: June 11, 2006, 11:37:38 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123937#msg123937 date=1150080627]
Then what is stopping you from joining the OCA or GOA then?ÂÂ  
[/quote]

I don't care to be with the OCA.or  The GOA or ROCOR
if I had my choice I would go under the ROAC (Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church) who has some Churchs here in America as well as a few Monastaries. I have a friend who use to be with the GOA who is now under the ROAC. and if I do decide to come under them. may be I can ask the Metropolitan to take over the true American orthodox Church where Aftimios left off. but this is only wishful thinking. But  I do have papers coming to me from ROAC
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« Reply #140 on: June 12, 2006, 12:00:33 AM »

He wanted groups like yours to join the actual Orthodox communion - not specifically his Greek part of it or a Russian part, etc. He didn't accept such groups as Orthodox as they were, the claim you seem to be trying to make. That makes no sense according to Orthodox theology.


You must be one of the stupidest people here.  all you have managed to do is trun everything I have saide a round.
I didnt say that Iakovos recognized such groups. I said he wanted to bring every one from Greek to Russian and so on and those who
may not have perfect canonical  lines  He wanted to bring (ALL) Jurisdictions and I do mean All Orthodox Jurisdiction. under on roof.
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« Reply #141 on: June 12, 2006, 12:12:36 AM »

The reason I didn't mention Moscow's Patriarchal Parishes in the US (I think that's their formal name) is because they are in SCOBA by proxy, represented by the OCA.

No, there formal name is  the  Russian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #142 on: June 12, 2006, 12:21:30 AM »



You must be one of the stupidest people here.  all you have managed to do is trun everything I have saide a round.
I didnt say that Iakovos recognized such groups. I said he wanted to bring every one from Greek to Russian and so on and those who
may not have perfect canonical  lines  He wanted to bring (ALL) Jurisdictions and I do mean All Orthodox Jurisdiction. under on roof.

I agree Paul Andrew, ROAC seems just right for you. If I may say so, I suggest you may want to make the bold step of contacting Gregory of Denver- leader of the true Church. You two would get along swimmingly. Maybe the two of you could combine your individual delusions to create one uber-illusion that could provide a stronghold for a new Moronic Orthodox Church. If you don't care for that name there are plenty more I could suggest.
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« Reply #143 on: June 12, 2006, 12:29:20 AM »

Did we ever establish a name and location for Paul Andrew's parish? Does his bishop have a name?
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« Reply #144 on: June 12, 2006, 12:56:03 AM »

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.

Unless we have love brothers,ÂÂ  all the truth in our canons is nothing but a noisy gong.

 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;

7  (Charity) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, (unity?),  ÃƒÆ’‚ endureth all things. (our ignorance, with a mind to educating and bringing us in?)

8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. (canons as well)

9 For we know in part... 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.ÂÂ  (canons as well)

13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.



I agree with you 100%
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« Reply #145 on: June 12, 2006, 01:31:16 AM »

I agree Paul Andrew, ROAC seems just right for you. If I may say so, I suggest you may want to make the bold step of contacting Gregory of Denver- leader of the true Church. You two would get along swimmingly. Maybe the two of you could combine your individual delusions to create one uber-illusion that could provide a stronghold for a new Moronic Orthodox Church. If you don't care for that name there are plenty more I could suggest.

I think you got your hat to tight for your head. As for this Gregory, person I have no clue who this person is. The ROAC is Under Metropolitan Valentine of Suzdal and Vladimir. in Russia. there are two homepages one is old with no links and a new one with links. As for the Archbishop Gregory he is listed in the old homepage, but is not listed in the new homepage of the ROAC. This jurisdition may had at one time been with ROCOR, but now it is it's own jurisdiction. so at this time I do not know who is his exarch is in the country. But I can easily as my Friend in New Jersey who is an Archimdrite.
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« Reply #146 on: June 12, 2006, 01:57:55 AM »

Did we ever establish a name and location for Paul Andrew's parish? Does his bishop have a name?


yes I did you have to go back a few postings to see my answer. but i'll redo it for you.

Parish is named Saint Vladimir's. it is in Hunlonck Creek Pa. Under Met.Thaddeus Condrick. The parish Sites empty because our parishners. have sinced moved, since the Goverment bought their house that were flood out. so right now it is not an active Parish and since my parish as not meony to move to a new location to build a new church else where. for me I am on leave from my jurisdiction. I live in California where I was born. to help my parents out, I lost my Mother back in November 5th 2005,
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« Reply #147 on: June 12, 2006, 02:52:45 AM »

As has been said, canonical tradition lets us know where a starting point is.ÂÂ  We very much disagree with you regarding who is canonically Orthodox.ÂÂ  Some have stated this more bluntly than others.ÂÂ  Would you be willing, ma'am, to concede that simply because I think that neither you nor the poster going by the name of "Fr. Paul Andrew" are not, in fact, Orthodox--that this does not automatically make me uncharitable and unhospitable?ÂÂ  It only means, imo, that I disagree with you and him.ÂÂ  Yet FPA says that merely disagreeing with his stance makes us Pharisees and unChristian and mean and whatever else.ÂÂ  

This is true.ÂÂ  Yet without all the truth in our canons, our love is just an unfocused, pointless sentiment.

We definitely hope for unity, but we will not do so at the expense of truth.ÂÂ  If we admitted your group or FPA's group to SCOBA communion, we basically would give a green light to all the doctrines we disagree on still.ÂÂ  Are you aware, ma'am, that SCOBA (as well as the rest of the institutional, mainline Orthodox Church worldwide) believes that they alone constitute the Church, and considers this a fundamental doctrine of what it means to be Orthodox?ÂÂ  If you admit that you need to be educated and brought in, would you truly be willing to reconcile to this and work towards what's been called "true ecumenism" by many Orthodox: that is, the universal conversion of all men to the Orthodox faith?

Yes...were we perfect and not sinners, we wouldn't need the canons, or icons, or the Eucharist, or even the Bible for that matter.ÂÂ  But we do need them, and until they pass away at the full revelation of Christ, there they stand, helping to guide the Church.

I hope this has been charitable, yet firm.

Pedro I agree with you some what. some of you have said that I am not Orthodox. Define Orthodox. according to the Seven Ecumenical Conncils. I follow everything that is canonical according to the Ruder. I'll listen to you since you make since. these others use the canon laws like the Protestants use the bible.ÂÂ  I tried to be civil but I do loose my temper.ÂÂ  I have also asked some of these guys by who's authorityÂÂ  thats gives them or any one to say who is not orthodox.. I came from a baptist back ground. like some people
I went from one church to another. I didn't know anything about the Orthodox Church. there is a Greek Orthodox Church about a mile and a half from me I always thought it was a nother part of the Roman catholic Church. As i didn't like the roman Catholic Church. Christ himself brought me in to the Orthodox church. It may not have been a large Orthodox jurisdiction.ÂÂ  but I went where the Lord wanted me to be. I had my studies in a seminary way but books that were given to me for reading and studing. It may not have been a large seminary.but my Jourisdiction did the best it could under the circumstances that it didn't have the money to bulid a large seminary and  to hire teachers.
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« Reply #148 on: June 12, 2006, 03:44:25 AM »

This should have been prefaced with 'Warning:extreme irony ahead'.

Love is patient, love is kind...

It doesn't barge into a forum bragging about titles one didn't earn.

It isn't puffed up indeed.

When nicely told the truth it doesn't come back with 'I just don't see the love of Jesus anywhere in you', 'I don't care what you say', 'you make me sick', etc. etc.

You're nicer than the other one - you admitted you aren't in a canonical church, that you don't know that much about Orthodoxy and asked questions.

Now you're dragging yourself down to Mr Hood's level.

Tell you what: I'll recognise you lot as Orthodox priests and nuns if you accept my claim of valid succession from His Highness Norton I, Emperor of the United States (a real person who lived in San Francisco), as King of the World and pay taxes to me. I can even throw up a website listing my 'lines' and post on message boards berating anybody who doesn't accept my God-given right to rule... those big meanies!ÂÂ  Tongue

Your a fool. you act like the pharisees in Christ's time as well as after his time.  I didn't ask any one to agree with me.or to recognize me as a Priest or my jurisdiction. when I first posted I gave my reason to coming in to this forum. I said that I have seen and read a lot forums that have said to others your not Orthodox or not canonical, your Bishops where excommunicated, the way I see it that is hatred. That is why in some of my postings I have said BY WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY WHO IS NOT ORTHODOX AND BY WHO'S AUTHORITY
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« Reply #149 on: June 12, 2006, 05:44:44 AM »

Quote
BY WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY WHO IS NOT ORTHODOX AND BY WHO'S AUTHORITY

Keep in mind that your ROAC buddies think the vast majority of the Orthodox Church (basicly everyone except their TINY inner circle) is a "graceless heretic".  Kind of ironic that you'd be drawn to such a group...
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« Reply #150 on: June 12, 2006, 08:25:33 AM »

Okay, I've been keeping up with this blog for too long now and in my opinion it has turned into a p--sing match. There is no edification or uplifting going on here just mindless wranglings.

Father PA. Here's the reply I think you want from youngfogey or any of us.

"Yes, yes, yes, you are Orthodox and we love and accept you dear brother. We're so sorry for not recognizing and respecting you and your congregation, please forgive us."

THIS AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

Youngfogey. Here's the reply I think you want from Mr. Hood.

"Yes, yes, yes, you are right and I am wrong. I am not Orthodox, just a poser and wannabe. Please forgive me. I am quitting tomorrow and am going to a true  Orthodox church to confess and repent."

THIS AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN EITHER.

Nobody here is going to convince anyone.This wrangling has turned into pure sport.  There are many serious inquirers who have logged on to this site. Let us spend our time with them If any of you have an Orthodox wall calendar read today's scripture Matt. 18:10-20.

ENOUGH!
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« Reply #151 on: June 12, 2006, 08:42:36 AM »

Amen!
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« Reply #152 on: June 12, 2006, 08:45:38 AM »

Okay, I've been keeping up with this blog for too long now and in my opinion it has turned into a p--sing match. There is no edification or uplifting going on here just mindless wranglings....

Youngfogey. Here's the reply I think you want from Mr. Hood.

"Yes, yes, yes, you are right and I am wrong. I am not Orthodox, just a poser and wannabe. Please forgive me. I am quitting tomorrow and am going to a true Orthodox church to confess and repent."

Sort of.

It's easy to get wrapped up in arguments like this and have ego get into it - sorry ’bout that - but which church Mr Hood goes to is nothing to do with me personally.

Like I said a while back it's obvious that he only wants attention and is unable or at least unwilling to listen to the people here. Not just me.

It's all just a disruption of this board. And also IMO the original topic of this thread doesn't belong in this folder as it's not about Orthodox-Roman Catholic dialogue at all!

The conversation about the Patriarchal Parishes in the USA and their relationship with the OCA was interesting though. It'd make a good little thread in another folder. Ecclesiologically they're a Cold War curiosity (allowed for pastoral reasons) like, ironically, ROCOR, and they serve the same niche group in the US: Russian immigrants, who culturally don't relate to the Americanised (and for the most part not Russian to begin with) OCA. (Before the recent détente and back when there was a USSR they competed of course.) Nice churches and both of course Orthodox but just another thing to untangle on the way to the goal of one bishop, one city of one Orthodox church for America. 'In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek', etc.

BTW, for the record I don't think Mr Hood publicly gave the name and town of his former, allegedly flooded-out and closed parish until just now. All I remember reading earlier was he had a church in a house that flooded and had to close.
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« Reply #153 on: June 12, 2006, 08:52:42 AM »

I know I agreed with "Enough!", but I never heard of nor can find "Hunlonck Creek, PA".
HuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #154 on: June 12, 2006, 09:08:58 AM »

I haven't done but try taking out one and then the other n and searching for it that way: it's probably Hunlock Creek.
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« Reply #155 on: June 12, 2006, 09:15:07 AM »

Thanks. Perhaps...THAT does exist...along with several Orthodox parishes in that region as I recall from my past trips over there (mostly OCA, maybe some ACROD).
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« Reply #156 on: June 12, 2006, 09:21:39 AM »

Well, it's interesting what a little Googling will turn up.

The AOCC appears in this list of "independent" churches-- three times. The first of these seems to be the one in question; the other two may be related, but it's hard to tell. But THIS also appears to be the homepage of the AOCC, as shown by this page. Only now we have a Metropolitan "Victor". What happened to Thaddeus Condrick? Well, acto Steve Tyminski, he had a serious lapse of judgement. (Disclaimer: I have no way of checking his allegations. Tyminski seems to have switched from AOCC to this group-- I think.)

Just to confound matters further there are two other AOCCs-- American Old Catholic Church. Neither of these seems to have any tangible link to the real Old Catholics of Utrecht.

Hardly anyone here believes that my church is part of the true church. But at least it's easy enough to figure out where it comes from. Here we have I'm not sure exactly how many churches competing to be the same obscure organization, whose ties to any unquestionably real church are hardly clear. Surely, sir, you should understand that your status is not beyond doubt.
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« Reply #157 on: June 12, 2006, 09:26:06 AM »

To be fair, Keble, Fr Paul did mention the existence of these two groups in one of his early posts and made an attempt to explain what was going on. So it's not like he was trying to hide it.

Anastasios
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« Reply #158 on: June 12, 2006, 09:37:13 AM »

Right, he's vehemently against THEOCACNA.

The vagante follies continue.

Had a look at Tyminski's blog.

Screams 'gay ex-RC fuming at his old church' to me.

Which is what many/most of these fly-by-night clergy and churches are really about.

Nope, nothing to do with Utrecht, which has problems of its own (they ordain women and are considering gay weddings) but is a real denomination with born members (and no churches anymore in the US - they're a Middle European thing).
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« Reply #159 on: June 12, 2006, 09:40:29 AM »

Quote
The AOCC appears in this list of "independent" churches-- three times.

LOL My parish recently had issues with one of these independent churches: "The Ancient Apostolic Communion" (formerly known as "The Coptic Orthodox Catholic Church"), a church founded upon a defrocked bishop who elevated himself to patriarch and consecrated his own Bishops.

What is with these people? They're a bunch of weirdos I tell ya. Apparently their heirarchs are ALWAYS on the net attempting to argue their validity. The Patriarch of the TAAC found his way to a Coptic forum a while ago; he was attempting to argue the validity of his church in addition to certain innovations undertaken by his church such as women's ordination. He also had a personal blog which, for an entire week, happened to revolve around myself. I was flattered.
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« Reply #160 on: June 12, 2006, 10:34:16 AM »

To be fair, Keble, Fr Paul did mention the existence of these two groups in one of his early posts and made an attempt to explain what was going on. So it's not like he was trying to hide it.

It's not the possible duplicity that concerned me, but the mere fact that it's difficult for anyone to tell who these groups are, and which has a claim to legitimacy. Even with ROAC the origin and membership of the body is reasonably clear (modulo the confusion thrown in by the deposed Gregory). For all the scattershot approach that Tikhon took to the survival of the Russian church, there is some possibility of establishing a link. Here it seems difficult to establish any linkages.
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« Reply #161 on: June 12, 2006, 10:44:19 AM »

From what I can tell from OrthodoxWiki, linked in this thread earlier, the claim is that the church headed by Aftimios, started by the Russian metropolia in that 'scattershot' approach you mentioned, continues as this little church. And it seems this church didn't appear until around the 1990s, claiming the 'mantle' of Aftimios.

Again (and again in peace) there's a problem, nothing to do with whether that link exists.

Even if it does, it means bubkes to the Orthodox because Aftimios and the fellows he consecrated left the Orthodox communion. As Anastasios said, a monk getting married (which Aftimios did) excommunicates himself.
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« Reply #162 on: June 12, 2006, 11:44:03 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123927#msg123927 date=1150072885]
...Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P....ÂÂ  


[/quote]

You sound like this manager who sits near me. Roll Eyes  I HATE overuse of acronymns that the user haphazardly assumes that people around him/her understand what they mean.
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« Reply #163 on: June 12, 2006, 12:18:07 PM »

It's as annoying as sports metaphors. A business book I browsed once faulted Americans for that — imagine if a Spaniard went on about pasos dobles and used other bullfighting allusions at an international meeting or presentation.
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« Reply #164 on: June 12, 2006, 12:49:16 PM »

yes I did you have to go back a few postings to see my answer. but i'll redo it for you.

Parish is named Saint Vladimir's. it is in Hunlock Creek Pa. Under Met.Thaddeus Condrick. The parish Sites empty because our parishners. have sinced moved, since the Goverment bought their house that were flood out. so right now it is not an active Parish and since my parish as no money to move to a new location to build a new church else where. for me I am on leave from my jurisdiction. I live in California where I was born. to help my parents out, I lost my Mother back in November 5th 2005,

I notice some mistakes I have made and didn't see them, I made the correction.
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« Reply #165 on: June 12, 2006, 01:01:00 PM »

I'm probably going to regret this but let's try again.

• How many people belonged to St Vladimir's in Hunlock Creek, Pa.?
• What was the average Sunday attendance?
• What were the backgrounds of the members - how many were born members of the denomination?
• What year was it started/how long did it last?
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« Reply #166 on: June 12, 2006, 01:07:24 PM »

Well, it's interesting what a little Googling will turn up.

The AOCC appears in this list of "independent" churches-- three times. The first of these seems to be the one in question; the other two may be related, but it's hard to tell. But THIS also appears to be the homepage of the AOCC, as shown by this page. Only now we have a Metropolitan "Victor". What happened to Thaddeus Condrick? Well, acto Steve Tyminski, he had a serious lapse of judgement. (Disclaimer: I have no way of checking his allegations. Tyminski seems to have switched from AOCC to this group-- I think.)

Just to confound matters further there are two other AOCCs-- American Old Catholic Church. Neither of these seems to have any tangible link to the real Old Catholics of Utrecht.

Hardly anyone here believes that my church is part of the true church. But at least it's easy enough to figure out where it comes from. Here we have I'm not sure exactly how many churches competing to be the same obscure organization, whose ties to any unquestionably real church are hardly clear. Surely, sir, you should understand that your status is not beyond doubt.


I know one Mr. Steve tyminski  he is not worth any thing even as a Priest. he doesn't listen to his Bishops he a trouble maker he does what he wants to do. not what his bishops asked him to do
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« Reply #167 on: June 12, 2006, 02:39:38 PM »

On one level-- and an important one-- I don't make much of distinction between you and Tyminski. But the point of interest is whether his report is true.
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« Reply #168 on: June 12, 2006, 02:54:53 PM »

Here lay the problem Father Paul Andrew. If an orthodox Christian happened to be in PA and walked into your church to worship. (Thinking It was an orthodox church) Would he be allowed communion? Or would you try and convert them on the spot? Communion is bond witch our church take seriously. Many souls have bin lost due to churches such as yours. Everybody is trying to reinvent the wheel instead of using it for what it is. Lay up your hands and repent. Your churches foundation is not set on solid ground.
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« Reply #169 on: June 12, 2006, 03:01:03 PM »

If it is of any comfort to you, please know that I shall be praying for you as I assist near the altar in a few hours.

Thank you, that is very comforting.

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« Reply #170 on: June 12, 2006, 03:15:34 PM »

He'd commune the Orthodox visitor and probably not tell the visitor that he (Mr Hood) and his church aren't really Orthodox/aren't really in communion with the visitor's church.

But I have a feeling that the visitor could tell from the externals that it wasn't really one of his anyway.
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« Reply #171 on: June 12, 2006, 03:15:45 PM »

I'm probably going to regret this but let's try again.

• How many people belonged to St Vladimir's in Hunlock Creek, Pa.?
• What was the average Sunday attendance?
• What were the backgrounds of the members - how many were born members of the denomination?
• What year was it started/how long did it last?

1. 0
2. 15
3. Orthodox and converts- none
4. first it started out in new jersey. don't know when. I believe some time in the latter part of 1970's
moved to hunlock Pa. this all started way be fore I went to Pa. Church and house started as a monastary. ended late 80s
Church remained opend. until 1996 flooded out by heave snow and rain. reopened 1997, church has at least 10 people.
as it stand now one family 2005 .church and house flood out twice three months apart. no parishners all have moved out of area. Bought out my US goverment.

at this time I really don't know if jurisdiction will continue. since there is no money coming in.
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« Reply #172 on: June 12, 2006, 03:25:01 PM »

Thank you.

By 'Orthodox' do you mean these 15 people, who never officially joined the parish but came on Sundays, joined your denomination? Or were they members of canonical Orthodox churches who went to your church instead?
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« Reply #173 on: June 12, 2006, 04:50:45 PM »

OK At least were talking civil and communicating.
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« Reply #174 on: June 12, 2006, 05:52:13 PM »

Here lay the problem Father Paul Andrew. If an orthodox Christian happened to be in PA and walked into your church to worship. (Thinking It was an orthodox church) Would he be allowed communion? Or would you try and convert them on the spot? Communion is bond witch our church take seriously. Many souls have bin lost due to churches such as yours. Everybody is trying to reinvent the wheel instead of using it for what it is. Lay up your hands and repent. Your churches foundation is not set on solid ground.


First Answer--- First of all I won't covert an Orthodox Christian who is alredy Orthodox.
Two answer--- we have had visitors from other Orthodox Jurdiction, IE OCA GOA UOC. ROCOR.
Third answer-- Yes we would. since we do follow the rudder. Plus we don't deny any one from receiving communion who is orthdoox Christian----
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« Reply #175 on: June 12, 2006, 06:40:55 PM »

Quote
Third answer-- Yes we would. since we do follow the rudder. Plus we don't deny any one from receiving communion who is orthdoox Christian----

Which demands, WHO IS ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN? 

If I wake up tomorrow as Nektarios, Patriarch of Phoenix and all other regions that are hot as hell right now, and revieve converts into my new founded "Orthodox" Church - are they Orthodox, simply because they call themselves Orthodox?
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« Reply #176 on: June 12, 2006, 07:03:40 PM »

If it is of any comfort to you, please know that I shall be praying for you as I assist near the altar in a few hours.

We celebrated Pentacost yesterday too, offering the Liturgy for the Forum and God's perfect will for unity,  and I'm sure it brought great joy to His Heart to see  His children earnestly pleading for one another.

In His Love and Mercy,

Mother Anastasia
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« Reply #177 on: June 12, 2006, 07:23:39 PM »

In all humility, please consider the following thoughts: Christianity is all about relationships, both of the person with Christ, and of the person with other people, ...

So, the reason a sudden change can occur as you point out isn't just a paperwork issue, but what it reveals is that the relationship between the person and the Church has been corrected and renewed through the Holy Spirit as revealed through the Mysteries of the Church. That is how things can change--because now it is known that the Spirit has moved among them, instead of merely suspected or hoped for: the correction of the person's relationship to the Church has changed. This is the nature of Pentecost, which many of us will be celebrating this morning: the sudden arrival of the Spirit to form the Church changed the world in that moment, while to many others nothing visible changed other than some people wandered into the street to speak in languages they understood.

As I understand it, Cornelius was acceptable in God's sight before that was communicated to Peter, and acknowledged to the church at large. 

Please do not get me wrong, I am not against authority or structure.  What I am against is man judging another man by his standards (canonical or otherwise)  when that soul may be in good standing with God.

I see salvation as a process.  What has been revealed to a soul by God today,  has also been accompanied by His grace to live out that new understanding.

What has not been revealed, the man cannot live out.   If a man has accepted Christ as his Head, and gives his life to bring food and medicines to the poor, for the love of God,  because in them he sees our Lord, is he not in affect the hands and feet of his head, Christ?  Should we not then admit him to the Lord's table if he is in understanding of the true nature of Christ's presence in the Eucharist?  Because by his actions, he had demonstrated that He knows the heart of the law, even as Cornelius, knew the heart  of the law.

If hypothetically, we were to remove all the traditions that have been layered upon Christianity since that day with Cornelius, would we not have a very simple basis for consensus and therefore communion?

I believe the Baptismal rite in Orthodoxy is beautiful and worthy to be adopted by all, but does not the Lord accept the same baptism that was administered to Cornelius and his family, even though we know better that one should be baptised in the name of the Holy Trinity?

I am not saying we should throw out tradition, I am saying that we need to go back to what Christ instituted as the absolute minimum for agreement.  If we refuse to do this, adding line upon line,  separate cooking pots for the meats  and the milk, are we not degenerating something God given into something made by man?




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« Reply #178 on: June 12, 2006, 08:06:36 PM »

Well, to be honest with you, we are interested in what you teach, because frankly not all of it is Orthodox, but I think you realize that now while perhaps earlier you did not.

What I meant when I said that nobody is asking us what we teach, was that nobody has asked us.  The focus  has been on jurisdiction.  Perhaps they looked at our web site and saw other things (not jurisdiction)  that were against the faith, but I have no way of knowing that, it was never presented to me.

I do know that our perspective of the canons is,  on the surface, not canonical.  But if we are being led by the Spirit of God to protest certain issues, what is said to be non-canonical today could be said to be canonical one hundred years from now.

We are not looking from our little corner of the globe in Taos, we are looking at the condition of the universal church, and she is in major need of reform, and what we are seeing, is that man has made an idol out of his own creation.

We talk about wealth, beauty and intellect as being idols of a society, that has put worldly pursuits before God and His kingdom, this is easily observed by the faithful.

But what is not so easily percieved by the faithful,  from the inside, are the man made laws and structures we have created that come first, before the Heart of God.  These have become stumbling blocks in the way of the Spirit of the Lord, and the fruit is before us, globally.   

Are we judging as man judges or as God judges? 

If Cornelius, was given baptism, should we include Mother Theresa?
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« Reply #179 on: June 12, 2006, 08:15:08 PM »

I have decide to put and end to all this you say I say. It is has become nothing but nonsince.  the only person I have to answer to is Jesus Christ. who will judge me on what I have done and what I haven't done. there is no one here to say who is right or who is wrong.Our Lord Jesus Christ is the only one who can say who is right or who is wrong. As long as I do what is right by the Seven Ecumenical Council to which  I have followed . when doing the Liturgy I use the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom. The liturgy of Saint Basil the Great and last the litury of the Presanctified Gifts. If I wasn't a trueOrthodox Christian. I would use what ever the Roman Catholic Church uses. or some liturgy that was not approved nt the Seven Councils. So I am not going to say who is right or who is wrong, that can go either way, by any ones definition.

So let there be peace  between us as orthodox Christians and Brother in Christ that we are.
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