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Bishop Paul Andrew
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« on: June 04, 2006, 03:27:21 AM »

Hi I am Father Paul Andrew and I greet every one with  Orthodox Christian Peace and Love
    
  Reason I am here is to say some things about Orthodoxy in America. I have been to very websites like this one where people talk and make comments on different subject. Two of these subject that I am going to talk about is hatred in the Orthodox Church and the old subject concerning The First Orthodox Church in America, know as the American Orthodox catholic Church headed by one Aftimios Ofiesh in Blessed Memory.

Ever since the beginning of this new Jurisdiction many clergy from other Orthodox Jurisdictions have tried to make the American Orthodox Catholic Church disappear.Yes this Jurisdiction has not grown to be a major Orthodox Church, but it has and still remains as an Orthodox jurisdiction today.  Other Orthodox Jurisdiction look at this Orthodox Church as  big thorn in it's side. From the Main Stream Orthodox Jurisdiction as well as the OCA and the Russian Orthodox Church abroad. All these Orthodox Jurisdiction have shown nothing but hatred to this Orthodox Jurisdiction.

By what I mean by hatred is that the Main stream Jurisdiction and the OCA and the Russian Orthodox Church abroad
have not shown one bit of friendly Christian act. There may be a handful of Good Orthodox Christians, But I am talking about The Bishops and the Clergy of these Jurisdiction.  They say that the American Orthodox catholic Church is non-canonical and that it Bishops and Clergy have no valid canonical lines. The American Orthodox Catholic Church has canonical line that come from The Russian Orthodox Church, The Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria. The Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church of Athens.The Syrian Orthodox Church. and The Albanian Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian  Orthodox Church.These are true and Valid and Canonical Orthodox Lines and still hold the line from the past and today.

 Now comes the Canon Law that the Other Orthodox Jurisdiction Do Break,  that if you are not in-communion with them you can not receive communion. But unlike the other jurisdiction we do give communion to other clergy from other Jurisdiction as we are a full Canonical Orthodox Church. One comment I do want to say is that if Jesus Christ who is the high Priest of the Church was on earth today and came in to your Church and asked to receive communion they would say now for you are not in-communion with us. see my point.

[Unverified personal claims against other Independent bishops removed]

There are two American orthodox Catholic Church Jurisdiction that do have Valid and canonical lines. one Jurisdiction in New York and One Jurisdiction in Pennsylvania. Both Jurisdiction are in the middle of reorganizing there jurisdiction and hopefully will come together so that they can grow together as on Orthodox Church.

One Last thing I'll say is that you don't have to belong to Scoba to be a Valid Orthodox Church, Plus Just because this Jurisdiction is not in-communion with the Main Stream Orthodox Churches Does not make this Jurisdiction Non-Canonical.

My Christ Our Lord Bless all our Jurisdicton
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2006, 03:35:44 AM »

One Last thing I'll say is that you don't have to belong to Scoba to be a Valid Orthodox Church,
True - the Jerusalem Patriarchate parishes in the US and ROCOR are perfectly fine.

Plus Just because this Jurisdiction is not in-communion with the Main Stream Orthodox Churches Does not make this Jurisdiction Non-Canonical.
Here's where you're wrong.  Who is your Bishop?  If no one recognizes him, then you're not Orthodox.  End of story.
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2006, 03:11:54 PM »

True - the Jerusalem Patriarchate parishes in the US and ROCOR are perfectly fine.

At Least you agree with me here

Here's where you're wrong.ÂÂ  Who is your Bishop?ÂÂ  If no one recognizes him, then you're not Orthodox.ÂÂ  End of story.

You say End of story. I don't think so. When some one says that my Jurisdiction and my Bishop and my Metropolitan and so on,  are not Orthodox thats where you are wrong my friend. Just because the OCA and others don't recognizes us doesn't mean we are not Orthodox. My Bishops have been in the Orthodox church as long as some of your bishops and I have been in the Orthodox just as long as some of you that are Priests. To say that one is not Orthodox shows me that you are not
Orthodox as well. Define who is Orthodox and who is not Orthodox, Because you have proved to me that you are not Orthodox
or even a good Orthodox Christian as well. To which I have said in my Posting that there is to much Hatred in the Orthodox Church. Only Christ Himself can say who is and who isn't Orthodox, a long with who is a good christian and who isn't a good christian.  Peace be with you

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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2006, 04:10:04 PM »

Quote
The Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church of Athens

I don't believe your Church had anything to do with Metropolitan Germanos of Demetrias, Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina, Archbishop Akakios of Athens, Archbishop Auxentios, or Archbishop Chrysostomos II, who, in that order, are the heads of the Greek Old Calendarist Church from the return of the three bishops to the Church Calendar in 1935 to the present.

Perhaps you mean Joachim Souris and his successor Timotheos, but these are just bishops who were consecrated from the same Ofiesh line that you claim and then who went to Greece as opportunists, and who set up separate altars against the Orthodox Church.

The problem with your claiming lineage from Ofiesh is that he was married and excommunicated when he consecrated those new bishops.  Excommunicated bishops--even if it was unjust (in his case, the political situation was unjust but his subsequent marriage was the clencher that ultimately got him excommunicated) cannot make new bishops.  By so doing, he incurred deposition.  Hence, his ordinations--to use the Latin terminology that you have used--are "invalid."

Some in your group flaunt consecration certificates by Christopher Kontogeorgios or Theophan Noli, but both of these Metropolitans later were received into communion with the other Orthodox jurisdictions.

In the 1920's and 1930's it was a confusing time for Orthodoxy in America and it was understandable for there to be these kinds of situations.  But in 2006, you basically don't have the same situation and things are more clear.  What advantage do you get out of being a vagante body?

Hardly anyone in the SCOBA hates you or feels threatened by you, by the way--you should stop confusing people disagreeing with your ecclesiology with hatred or jealousy.  I am sure there are people who explained their views on your Church in a less than charitable way, but at the same time, as a whole, I don't think most in SCOBA hate you.  I would wager that 90% of people in SCOBA including hierarchs have no idea who you even are.

While I have your attention, do you believe that Roman Catholics have valid baptism and apostolic succession? What about Anglicans? That will help me in part to understand your point of view.

I am not generally combative by nature but you are not the first "American Catholic Orthodox Church" person (or person claiming to be a clergyman in such) to come here, present himself as a clergyman, not be accepted, insult us, and leave in a huff.  I am hence wary of people from your jurisdiction based on prior interractions.

Anastasios
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2006, 04:22:43 PM »

On second thought I believe he ordained two of the bishops before the marriage.  Some came later though.  At any rate, he was excommunicated and they stayed in communion with him, thus incurring his penalty.

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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2006, 05:49:44 PM »

My first thing is to apologize for my stuffiness. I don't mean to be huff. I may have used the word of Hatred in a wrong manner and I do apologize for that as well. I can't say any thing wrong against the OCA as they are a valid Jurisdiction as well a the rest of the Orthodox Jurisdiction here in America. A lot of you have a misunderstanding about Aftimios Ofiesh, yes he did marry but he was never excommunicated by the Patriarch of Constantinople, as there is no give proof of any document of excommunication against Aftimios Ofiesh has ever been seen or found. He was also not excommunicated by his own Synod. Plus his Bishops were not consecrated after the so called excommunication, they were consecrated way before.

Yes there have been others that flaunt consecration certificates to show that their line are true, I have not do to that if any one wants to see consecration Certificates all they have to do is request any and all certificates from my Metropolitan.

The one thing I do want to say is that this Jurisdiction,has had a lot problems through out the the years with it's clergy. Lot have been excommunicated by the Metropolitan's or my our bishops. I am sure that all the different jurisdiction have had the some problem. But i have met a lot of Clergy that have left the OCA and others as well as ours that have not been excommunicated. All  of the Jurisdiction here in America has had problem or still have problems with disobedient Clergy.

As for Metropolitan Joachim Souris of Blessed Memory was Consecrated Metropolitan of the Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church of Athens and was asked to drop his Churches here in America and turned over to his Exarchs in America
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2006, 06:38:30 PM »

Quote
Excommunicated bishops--even if it was unjust (in his case, the political situation was unjust but his subsequent marriage was the clencher that ultimately got him excommunicated) cannot make new bishops.  By so doing, he incurred deposition.  Hence, his ordinations--to use the Latin terminology that you have used--are "invalid."

I'm not sure I follow.  In the strictest sense that would make Metr. Chrysostomos of Florina et al unable to consecrate new bishops - something that you obviously don't believe.   
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2006, 11:15:46 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg122988#msg122988 date=1149460710]
I'm not sure I follow.  In the strictest sense that would make Metr. Chrysostomos of Florina et al unable to consecrate new bishops - something that you obviously don't believe.   
[/quote]

Sorry for not being clear.  Of course for my ecclesiological viewpoint to make sense, there has to be the caveat that the excommunication is indeed "valid."  Met Chrysostomos of Florina, who was excommunicated by the State Church of Greece, was in resistance and his excommunication, which was based solely on his resistance to modernism and the New Calendar, was thereby invalid, if one follows the 15th canon of the First-Second council.  My point is that Bishop Aftimios was not excommunicated for resistance to heresy/ecclesiastical error but simply because a) he was on the wrong side of a minor political dispute which had nothing to do with faith and b) he married.  So he was "validly" excommunicated and hence unable to consecrate. I'm sure someone will point out that this is highly subjective and I would completely agree; unlike Roman Catholicism, there is no central authority in Orthodoxy on earth per se and as such, sometimes we have to make our stand and submit ourselve to judgment with the hope that we are making the right decision.  Some making this resistance in the past, such as St Theodore the Studite, St Maximos the Confessor, etc., were in the end judged right, while others such as the Old Believers and others, were judged schismatic.  Some, like the Arsenites, were admitted back into communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople on the assumption that they had been Orthodox all along, if the sources I am reading are accurate.  If I had the ability to do an MTh, my thesis would definitely be on resistance movements in Orthodoxy as I think a lot of thought still needs to be put into the subject.

I was wrong though about Aftimios's earlier consecrations, so I will have to formally retract the argument anyway.

Anastasios
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2006, 01:03:42 AM »

Thanks, Anastasios.  I agree that this is indeed an interesting topic and would love to see some scholarly research on it, opposed to polemic. 
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2006, 02:16:50 AM »

You say End of story. I don't think so. When some one says that my Jurisdiction and my Bishop and my Metropolitan and so on,  are not Orthodox thats where you are wrong my friend. Just because the OCA and others don't recognizes us doesn't mean we are not Orthodox. My Bishops have been in the Orthodox church as long as some of your bishops and I have been in the Orthodox just as long as some of you that are Priests. To say that one is not Orthodox shows me that you are not
Orthodox as well. Define who is Orthodox and who is not Orthodox, Because you have proved to me that you are not Orthodox
or even a good Orthodox Christian as well. To which I have said in my Posting that there is to much Hatred in the Orthodox Church. Only Christ Himself can say who is and who isn't Orthodox, a long with who is a good christian and who isn't a good christian.  Peace be with you



Believe whatever you want.  You're not going to get anyone on this message board to accept your argument in any case.  While I my understand Anastasios's point/position, I still think his case is dubious at best.  Yours?  One of those myriad of wannabe orthodox groups out there.  Sorry, but that's the way it is.
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 02:46:48 AM »

Sorry for not being clear.ÂÂ  Of course for my ecclesiological viewpoint to make sense, there has to be the caveat that the excommunication is indeed "valid."ÂÂ  Met Chrysostomos of Florina, who was excommunicated by the State Church of Greece, was in resistance and his excommunication, which was based solely on his resistance to modernism and the New Calendar, was thereby invalid, if one follows the 15th canon of the First-Second council.ÂÂ  My point is that Bishop Aftimios was not excommunicated for resistance to heresy/ecclesiastical error but simply because a) he was on the wrong side of a minor political dispute which had nothing to do with faith and b) he married.ÂÂ  So he was "validly" excommunicated and hence unable to consecrate. I'm sure someone will point out that this is highly subjective and I would completely agree; unlike Roman Catholicism, there is no central authority in Orthodoxy on earth per se and as such, sometimes we have to make our stand and submit ourselve to judgment with the hope that we are making the right decision.ÂÂ  Some making this resistance in the past, such as St Theodore the Studite, St Maximos the Confessor, etc., were in the end judged right, while others such as the Old Believers and others, were judged schismatic.ÂÂ  Some, like the Arsenites, were admitted back into communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople on the assumption that they had been Orthodox all along, if the sources I am reading are accurate.ÂÂ  If I had the ability to do an MTh, my thesis would definitely be on resistance movements in Orthodoxy as I think a lot of thought still needs to be put into the subject.

I was wrong though about Aftimios's earlier consecrations, so I will have to formally retract the argument anyway.

Anastasios

Since Aftimios Ofiesh was head of a New Jurisdiction and it's Primate. Plus being under once under the Russian Metropolia, and the Syrian Orthodox Church. The Patriarch of Constantinople at that time had no authority in the affairs of the New Jurisdiction. So as for Aftimios he steped down to Mary. And once again there is no proof or document showing that Aftimios was excmmunicated either by
said Patriarch or by any of his Bishops. So as it stand it is nothing but a roomer or said document was never sent and made it invalid.
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2006, 10:17:12 AM »

Since Aftimios Ofiesh was head of a New Jurisdiction and it's Primate. Plus being under once under the Russian Metropolia, and the Syrian Orthodox Church. The Patriarch of Constantinople at that time had no authority in the affairs of the New Jurisdiction. So as for Aftimios he steped down to Mary. And once again there is no proof or document showing that Aftimios was excmmunicated either by
said Patriarch or by any of his Bishops. So as it stand it is nothing but a roomer or said document was never sent and made it invalid.

Oh! Well, that's different! You still are Orthodox due to a technicality!ÂÂ  CheesyÂÂ  Roll Eyes

Well, why not just petition SCOBA to become a member now and remove this cloud from your church's ligitimacy?
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2006, 12:28:14 PM »

What the other responders have said.

To the original poster: what's your background? Is English your first language? Where did you go to seminary? Are you a born member of your church? How many 'cradle' members are in your congregation? In your denomination?

Sorry, Charlie - you're not Orthodox and ranting that you are only makes you look worse. Real Orthodox are recognised by other Orthodox and don't go on and on and on about their 'canonical lines'. When you start hearing about 'lines of succession' you can be fairly sure you're not dealing with a commonly recognised real church but rather vagantes, ecclesiastical wannabes.

I can respect as somehow real anything that has a real congregation, a real ministry, and better still, generational members. If you have those things, good for you! The old Methodist chapel across the street from my house gets that kind of respect from me. But they don't claim - LOUDLY or at all - to be something they're not.

AFAIK there's only one legitimate group that came by way of Aftimios, the Western Rite one eventually led by Alexander Turner that, in the 1950s, became the beginning of the Antiochian Orthodox' American archdiocese's Western Rite Vicariate.

Oh, and what's this to do with Orthodox-Roman Catholic discussion, the topic of this folder?
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2006, 02:28:28 PM »

Believe whatever you want.ÂÂ  You're not going to get anyone on this message board to accept your argument in any case.ÂÂ  While I my understand Anastasios's point/position, I still think his case is dubious at best.ÂÂ  Yours?ÂÂ  One of those myriad of wannabe orthodox groups out there.ÂÂ  Sorry, but that's the way it is.

I feel sorry for you, if you are a clergymen. do you that you represent youself
in an un-orthodox christian manner. so you know I have a few OCA Priest who are
friends of mine, plus they know that I am a valid Priest. plus they understand about my
jurisdiction until at some time when my Jurisdiction is done reorgnizing that My Metroplitan
will be talking with the main Stream Orthdoox Churches.
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2006, 02:35:52 PM »

FPA:

As young fogey and a few others have said. YOU ARE NOT ORTHODOX! Stop the ranting and if you think this is unChristian tough. Pary for us. Better people than any of us here have defended the faith sometimes in an "unchristian" manner.
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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2006, 03:15:59 PM »

If you want to be an Orthodox priest so much why don't you join a recognised Orthodox church - after all it was good enough for your OCA priest friends - then after a while talk to the bishop about sending you to a seminary for training, and if he approves, eventually be ordained one?

My guess is if you were in a group run by a living former Orthodox bishop and that bishop was reinstated you could be accepted as a priest. But being generations removed from that - again, 'validity' and 'lines of succession' aren't legal tender in Orthodox theology if they're outside Orthodoxy - won't fly.

As you haven't deigned to answer any of my questions does that mean you have no theological education, no congregation nor any born members?
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2006, 05:43:01 PM »

Thumbs down to most of you. I stand by what I have said as most of you really don't know much about the AOCC. You people always comment back to Aftimios as being Ex-COMMUNICATED by the Patriarch of Constantinople to which  is only hear say as there is no proof of said document of EXCOMMUNICATION and no said document has ever been given or found. Plus his own Synod didn't even ECOMMUNICATE Aftimois either.

As for you calling us vagantes and wannabes.thats you opinion. But I will say is yes there are those who are vagantes and wannabes do to the fact that they come out of the Old Roman Catholics. As for me I was a convert out of the Baptist  Church in to the orthodox church and was Baptized and confirmed in to the Holy Orthodox Church. as for my seminary times we have our own seminary,it may not be like St Tikon's or St Vladimir's  but I was tought according to the Cancon Laws of the Orthodox Church. Plus I speak two languages on is English and the other which doesn't have a written language which comes from the American Indians also called the people.

Now there are two Valid Jurisdiction of the AOCC one in New Your and in Pennsylvania. Both with Valid lines from Walter Propheta of Blessed Memory who came from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Walther Propheta who's Lines are Valid was the Metropolitan of the AOCC from the 60's to the Early 70's and was recognized by Socba as he was a member and also worked a long side with Former Metropolitan Iakovos of the Greek Orthodox Church of America of Blessed Memory. All this is documented on File with Scoba if said flies were kept. from that time. to find out more about us your Bishops can contact my Metropolitan who is in Pennsylvania or they can also contact the Metropolitan in New York

one Question I would like to ask some of you in the OCA.I know that you are in Communion with the Greek Orthodox Church of America. Put has the Patriarch of Constantinople recognized your validity as being the first and only true Orthodox Church for  American People regardless what there back ground is.
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2006, 05:48:22 PM »

If you want to be an Orthodox priest so much why don't you join a recognised Orthodox church - after all it was good enough for your OCA priest friends - then after a while talk to the bishop about sending you to a seminary for training, and if he approves, eventually be ordained one?

My guess is if you were in a group run by a living former Orthodox bishop and that bishop was reinstated you could be accepted as a priest. But being generations removed from that - again, 'validity' and 'lines of succession' aren't legal tender in Orthodox theology if they're outside Orthodoxy - won't fly.

As you haven't deigned to answer any of my questions does that mean you have no theological education, no congregation nor any born members?

I don't need to go to another Orthodox Juristisdiction to be a priest I know where I come fromÂÂ  and I am just as Valid as any one here.ÂÂ  we do have people and no matter what you or anyÂÂ  one here says. This Jurisdiction is here to stay and will not go a way.
one other word at least I use my real name here. and not some nick or odd make up name.

You guys sure like to use the word not Orthodox, as you can not disprove who we are not, you can only go by what has been told to you by your bishops. As we can prove who we are. So like I said I am here to say as well a my Jurisdiction  and Bishops so we are here to stay and won't go a way or even disappear.
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2006, 07:01:40 PM »

I don't need to go to another Orthodox Juristisdiction to be a priest I know where I come fromÂÂ  and I am just as Valid as any one here.ÂÂ  we do have people and no matter what you or anyÂÂ  one here says. This Jurisdiction is here to stay and will not go a way.
one other word at least I use my real name here. and not some nick or odd make up name.

You guys sure like to use the word not Orthodox, as you can not disprove who we are not, you can only go by what has been told to you by your bishops. As we can prove who we are. So like I said I am here to say as well a my JurisdictionÂÂ  and Bishops so we are here to stay and won't go a way or even disappear.
And your reason for coming to this forum is...................?
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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 08:12:41 PM »

And your reason for coming to this forum is...................?

I came here as a friend I didn't come to fight with any one. But I will defend my Jurisdiction. as no one can disprove that my Jurisdiction is not a Valid Jurisdiction. I have stated that any one wants to know if we are Valid all the have to do is have your Metropolitan talk to my Metropolitan. if they want to know who my Metropolitan is they can E-mail at acoo_chancellor@inbox .com
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2006, 08:38:21 PM »

I came here as a friend I didn't come to fight with any one. But I will defend my Jurisdiction. as no one can disprove that my Jurisdiction is not a Valid Jurisdiction. I have stated that any one wants to know if we are Valid all the have to do is have your Metropolitan talk to my Metropolitan. if they want to know who my Metropolitan is they can E-mail at acoo_chancellor@inbox .com

No, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that ANY Orthodox Bishop in this country (or the world for that matter) recognizes your bishops.  Sorry, but that's the way it goes.
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 08:52:22 PM »

So tell me about your congregation. Where is it? How many? How many are cradle members? What kind of services do you have for them and how often?
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2006, 09:09:15 PM »

You know, people like the young fogey who have years of experience dealing with groups like "the American Orthodox Church" or people like me who have MDiv's and whose thesis involved in part researching Ofiesh, Kontagiorgios, Joachim Souris, et al could spend the time to debate you, Father, but honestly, it would be pointless. If you came to be a friend your first post should not have been basically, "I AM HERE TO BE YOUR FRIEND EVEN THOUGH YOU WILL PROBABLY HATE MY BISHOP!" which was basically your rallying cry.  If you were simply here posting for awhile on Orthodox topics without throwing your jurisdiction and its claims around so loudly, you probably actually would make friends.  We have several Catholic, Protestant, and even Jewish posters here and we all get along.

Basically, some food for thought is that the Orthodox do not believe in "lines of succession."  That you are espousing this Roman Catholic belief is the first hint that there is a problem with your ecclesiology.  I will not debate you on this though.  I, like the young fogey, would be interested in knowing what exactly your Church is like on a day to day basis though.

Anastasios
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2006, 11:58:21 PM »

I came here as a friend I didn't come to fight with any one. But I will defend my Jurisdiction.
Did anyone on this forum attack your jurisdiction on this forum before you submitted your first post?  If not, then why do you need to make your presence known here by immediately launching a defense of your jurisdiction?  I guess I just don't understand the concept of preemptive defense--it's kinda like saying, "I hit him back first."
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2006, 01:23:19 AM »

No, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that ANY Orthodox Bishop in this country (or the world for that matter) recognizes your bishops.ÂÂ  Sorry, but that's the way it goes.
Sorry I don't have to prove nothing to you or any one eles,  Like I said if  any of your Bishop what to know who we are Just ask Metropolian Hermen who I have great respect for is to talk to my Metropolitan .  Metropolitan Herame should teach some of you good manners on how to  good Orthodox clery because I sure haven't seen any here. your lay people have more Orthodox christian in them than some of you have in your little pinky
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2006, 01:53:03 AM »

So tell me about your congregation. Where is it? How many? How many are cradle members? What kind of services do you have for them and how often?

 First of all we are reorgnizing our jurisdiction. Two- we do that same liturgy as very one else on Sunday, Holy week plus Holy Nativity . we do is Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom . we are not western rite or old catholics my any means. do to two flooding we have not use the church much so like I said we are in the mist or reorgnizing and plus relocating the Church. so very few people come to sundays liturgy the rets of the time they all come on Holy pashca. all our members are Orthodox.
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2006, 02:48:14 AM »

Did anyone on this forum attack your jurisdiction on this forum before you submitted your first post?ÂÂ  If not, then why do you need to make your presence known here by immediately launching a defense of your jurisdiction?ÂÂ  I guess I just don't understand the concept of preemptive defense--it's kinda like saying, "I hit him back first."


not until my first Posting as I was only making comments. see there are a lot of clergy from main stream to the OCA that have a misunderstanding about Aftimios Ofiest. See be fore I ever came in to the Orthodox Church, I thought there was only the Protestant Churchs and the Roman Catholic Church. The first time I ever heard of the Orthodox Church was in 1999. when I met an orthodox priest whom be came a good friend to me. he is not reposed from what information I got from his family. I did a lot of research about the orthodox church . so one night I had a deam at least I thought it was. any way The lord came to me and asked me to follow the priest to where the lord wanted me to be. that's when IÂÂ  was guided to the jurisdiction of the AOCC. I don't know why but I do as the lord asked me to do. So ever since being in the church I heard people us fakes wannabes and so on. so this is way I am very protective of my Bishops and my jurisdiction. I don't mean to sound a A?? h?? .but I do loose my temper at times. I told one person that I do have friends in the OCA who are priest and know that I am valid. any way my friend God Bless and e-mail me any time
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2006, 02:54:15 AM »

Let's turn the question around - what must one do in order to actually be Orthodox?  If canonical unity with the rest of the Orthodox Church isn't the answer, what is?  Are Russian Old Believers Orthodox as well?  What about the multiple self proclaimed Ukrainian Orthodox Churches?  Where do you draw the line - if you can actually draw it? ÂÂ
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2006, 04:35:06 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123155#msg123155 date=1149576855]
Let's turn the question around - what must one do in order to actually be Orthodox?  If canonical unity with the rest of the Orthodox Church isn't the answer, what is?  Are Russian Old Believers Orthodox as well?  What about the multiple self proclaimed Ukrainian Orthodox Churches?  Where do you draw the line - if you can actually draw it? ÂÂ
[/quote]

You know you give me some thing to think about. some times I wonder if all the Orthodox Church are really together or are they. it sounds like they are all different in Practice or do they really conform to the Canon Laws from the Early Church fathers. As for drawing a line I don't think any one could draw a line. This may sound stupid But from the AOCC to the OCA to all the Ukrinian Churchs and both Greek orthodox Churches who is real and who is not. I wonder if any one can answer this. this si some thing to think about
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2006, 04:47:18 AM »

You know, people like the young fogey who have years of experience dealing with groups like "the American Orthodox Church" or people like me who have MDiv's and whose thesis involved in part researching Ofiesh, Kontagiorgios, Joachim Souris, et al could spend the time to debate you, Father, but honestly, it would be pointless. If you came to be a friend your first post should not have been basically, "I AM HERE TO BE YOUR FRIEND EVEN THOUGH YOU WILL PROBABLY HATE MY BISHOP!" which was basically your rallying cry.ÂÂ  If you were simply here posting for awhile on Orthodox topics without throwing your jurisdiction and its claims around so loudly, you probably actually would make friends.ÂÂ  We have several Catholic, Protestant, and even Jewish posters here and we all get along.

Basically, some food for thought is that the Orthodox do not believe in "lines of succession."ÂÂ  That you are espousing this Roman Catholic belief is the first hint that there is a problem with your ecclesiology.ÂÂ  I will not debate you on this though.ÂÂ  I, like the young fogey, would be interested in knowing what exactly your Church is like on a day to day basis though.

Anastasios
what you wrote is not what I said in my First posting

I would like to caht with you and youg fogey as I am an old fogeyÂÂ  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2006, 08:05:03 AM »

Is English your mother tongue or are you just a bad typist?
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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2006, 09:04:35 AM »

Quote
Is English your mother tongue or are you just a bad typist?

I was trying to ask that too, only without mentioning the bad typing.

I got no answers regarding where this allegedly flooded-out church is nor the backgrounds of the parishioners (such as, are any of them born members of your church?). Perfectly civil questions.

So I see, unsurprisingly, no evidence of theological schooling (where presumably one would learn how to write coherently) and no real ministry.

Real OCA priests wouldn't describe a vagante as 'valid'. Not only does that make no sense according to Orthodoxy but, as has been said, that term along with 'canonical lines' (a vagante favourite) aren't part of Orthodox theological lingo.

I don't believe that Metropolitan Herman would concelebrate with your bishop, for example.

Quote
Two- we do that same liturgy as very one else on Sunday, Holy week plus Holy Nativity .

An Orthodox priest would know that there are several other great feasts besides Christmas when he's required to conduct services.

To the original poster: what we're trying to tell you, apparently without getting through, is that although your friend a few years ago may have been very nice, he wasn't really an Orthodox priest.

In trying to follow him you've joined something you thought was Orthodox but isn't.

Had a look at the website you link to in your profile and found no church locations nor service times. Just a ramble about 'lines of succession'. That says it all.

I suggest that if all one wants to do is brag about being a priest one should do that somewhere else.

Reminds me of the guys who claim they're ex-Navy SEALs* to try to pick up girls.

Just like real SEALs don't talk like that, a priest, even from a church that's not really Orthodox, would talk about his ministry in a real place with a name to actual human beings.

To clarify: I have no direct experience (like being an ex-member) of these vagante churches but in following church matters over more than 20 years have learnt a lot about them.

*The equivalent of commandos to non-US readers.
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« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2006, 02:26:55 PM »

Is English your mother tongue or are you just a bad typist?

English and some times I do make mistakes and forget to check my Typing
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2006, 02:37:21 PM »

I was trying to ask that too, only without mentioning the bad typing.

I got no answers regarding where this allegedly flooded-out church is nor the backgrounds of the parishioners (such as, are any of them born members of your church?). Perfectly civil questions.

So I see, unsurprisingly, no evidence of theological schooling (where presumably one would learn how to write coherently) and no real ministry.

Real OCA priests wouldn't describe a vagante as 'valid'. Not only does that make no sense according to Orthodoxy but, as has been said, that term along with 'canonical lines' (a vagante favourite) aren't part of Orthodox theological lingo.

I don't believe that Metropolitan Herman would concelebrate with your bishop, for example.

An Orthodox priest would know that there are several other great feasts besides Christmas when he's required to conduct services.

To the original poster: what we're trying to tell you, apparently without getting through, is that although your friend a few years ago may have been very nice, he wasn't really an Orthodox priest.

In trying to follow him you've joined something you thought was Orthodox but isn't.

Had a look at the website you link to in your profile and found no church locations nor service times. Just a ramble about 'lines of succession'. That says it all.

I suggest that if all one wants to do is brag about being a priest one should do that somewhere else.

Reminds me of the guys who claim they're ex-Navy SEALs* to try to pick up girls.

Just like real SEALs don't talk like that, a priest, even from a church that's not really Orthodox, would talk about his ministry in a real place with a name to actual human beings.

To clarify: I have no direct experience (like being an ex-member) of these vagante churches but in following church matters over more than 20 years have learnt a lot about them.

*The equivalent of commandos to non-US readers.

At this time I really don't care what you say. Like I said I know where I come from I know that my Bishops are true,and thats all I am going to say. Only Christ knows that I have said is true. So drop the Matter,since there is no looser or winner. We'll leave it to Chrits to judge
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« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2006, 02:48:11 PM »

Then stop wasting our time and bandwidth, Mr Hood, and go pretend to be a priest somewhere else.
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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2006, 03:18:16 PM »

This is a great example why I am 'not' Orthodox!  Roll Eyes

As a Christian I don't establish my salvation through 'valid lines of succession' but through my faith in Jesus Christ and my confession of Him as my Lord and Saviour.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:9-13

Relying on men to confirm or establish one's faith is questionable. If you have faith, stand in confidence before the Lord your God for you will stand before Him alone on the Day of Judgement regardless.

Sorry for butting in. Continue on...

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« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2006, 03:57:39 PM »

Actually, to be fair, chrisb:

• The Orthodox don't play that 'valid lines of succession' game either, a reason why Mr Hood's antics are offensive.
• However, salvation is meant to come through the church, which is a divine institution founded by Christ, not just a collection of individually saved people having fellowship. Logically the 'me'n'Jesus' approach you describe can take you anywhere from John Spong to Jim Jones.
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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2006, 04:03:09 PM »

This is a great example why I am 'not' Orthodox!  Roll Eyes

As a Christian I don't establish my salvation through 'valid lines of succession' but through my faith in Jesus Christ and my confession of Him as my Lord and Saviour.

And also another example of how you don't know, mischaracterize or simply do not attentively read what Orthodox people write in clear English.

Basically, some food for thought is that the Orthodox do not believe in "lines of succession."  That you are espousing this Roman Catholic belief is the first hint that there is a problem with your ecclesiology.

Real Orthodox are recognised by other Orthodox and don't go on and on and on about their 'canonical lines'. When you start hearing about 'lines of succession' you can be fairly sure you're not dealing with a commonly recognised real church but rather vagantes, ecclesiastical wannabes.

As has been stated multiple times in this thread (and in the most rudimentary Orthodox Christian catechism), the Orthodox Church considers the Faith itself to be the absolute and most important part of Apostolicity, not technical "lines of succession." Enough of the fictitious examples and would-be strawmen!
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« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2006, 04:46:16 PM »

Actually, to be fair, chrisb:

• The Orthodox don't play that 'valid lines of succession' game either, a reason why Mr Hood's antics are offensive.
• However, salvation is meant to come through the church, which is a divine institution founded by Christ, not just a collection of individually saved people having fellowship. Logically the 'me'n'Jesus' approach you describe can take you anywhere from John Spong to Jim Jones.

Hi there mr. fogey,

I don't want to get in between your fuss with Mr. Hood but what do you intrepret this passage to mean?

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. - Romans 18:20

PS: I made this a topic in converts as well...
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« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2006, 05:16:52 PM »

It can mean that in the invisible sense that Protestants are comfortable with. As Orthodox say, they know where the church is but don't presume to say where it's not. But to guarantee he's in your midst, the two or three should be a part of the visible church, the one with bishops, sacraments, etc.

Much like Roman Catholics, Orthodox do claim lines of succession as part of having bishops but unlike the game-players don't act like they're the only important part of that. Outside the context of their church, the Orthodox say, such 'lines' mean nothing and no amount of pleading or badgering can change that.

When the boys came out to play
Vagante Poseur ran away.
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« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2006, 06:37:14 PM »

I am so enjoying your banter and replies young fogey.

ChrisB. Be careful, if you read too much in this site you may become Orthodox!  We'd love to have you.
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« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2006, 07:39:05 PM »

ChrisB. Be careful, if you read too much in this site you may become Orthodox!  We'd love to have you.
Indeed!  I know of many cradle Protestants who became Orthodox--I'm one of them.  But I really don't know of any such converts who reverted back to Protestantism.  You're going to have an extremely difficult time preaching a Protestant (Baptist) apologetic to the many of us ex-Protestants who are very familiar with your apologetic and have discovered very strong biblical reasons for rejecting it.
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« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2006, 08:11:11 PM »

Hey. let's start a new thread and banter with ChrisB!
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« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2006, 11:31:25 PM »

Hey. let's start a new thread and banter with ChrisB!
I think another thread has already turned into that.  Grin

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9068.0
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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2006, 01:52:39 AM »

I just realized whats wrong in the Orthodox Chuch today. There is no christian Love do, to Priests that think they are Better than others. For exsample Main Stream churchs, The OCA, Rocor, The Greek orthodox Church in America and so on. They have to much pride in them selfs and they think that they are better than the Independent Orthodox Churches. These so called Goody two shose Priests like to use the words like (vagants) and wannabe The word vangante is not a word at all since it is not in the DistionaryÂÂ  Smiley. I think this is their new words that they have put in to the canon laws. They have to realize that Being Orthodox is not being in communion with another Orthodox church. The word communion is for taking the body and Blood of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ who is the Church High Priest of the Church, who we are incommunion with.ÂÂ  The Church is not a building the Church is people coming toegther in one Belief in Jesus christ. You don't have to be incommunion with a building that has a name. Like The OCA,or Russian or Greek.or Syrian, or AOC. being in communionÂÂ  is that All orthodox Churches are in communion togther by Belief and faith. it not by who is who or who is better. Plus just because a person learns in a small seminary in stead of a large Seminary does not make him any lesser of a priest than a Priest from a larger Seminary. I am Paul I am an Orthodox Priest,I am not a Mister. I was ordained in sucession through the Apostles and Jesus Christ.I an not a vangante or a wannbe for Christ is my Arch Priest and Bishop through himÂÂ and my belief is the Church andÂÂ  I serve the people, People do not serve me. The orthodox people are the Church as the church is Jesus christ.ÂÂ  Smiley
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« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2006, 02:15:27 AM »

There's an offensive internet practice known as trolling - posting on an internet discussion forum with the sole intent to offend other posters or to pick a fight.  Father Paul Andrew, what you're doing here certainly looks like this.
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« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2006, 06:50:54 AM »

I just realized whats wrong in the Orthodox Chuch today. There is no christian Love do, to Priests that think they are Better than others.

Jolly good, Mr Hood. Then stop playing at being Orthodox and run along. They obviously aren't worth your emulation.  Wink

Quote
For exsample Main Stream churchs, The OCA, Rocor, The Greek orthodox Church in America and so on. They have to much pride in them selfs and they think that they are better than the Independent Orthodox Churches.


They are what they are and like anybody don't like it when people pretend to be something they're not, rather like the American Medical Association feel about that old guy in Florida who recently got busted for impersonating a doctor, offering the ladies free breast and genital exams.

Quote
These so called Goody two shose Priests like to use the words like (vagants) and wannabe


Those goody-two-shoes people who did the work and got medical degrees have the garbanzos to deny that old perv is really one of them. So it is here.

Quote
The word vangante is not a word at all since it is not in the Distionary  Smiley. I think this is their new words that they have put in to the canon laws.


So what and no.

Quote
They have to realize that Being Orthodox is not being in communion with another Orthodox church.


Pretty convenient for the game you're trying to play, Mr Hood, but no.

Quote
The word communion is for taking the body and Blood of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ who is the Church High Priest of the Church, who we are incommunion with.
 

'I'm a doctor because  I SAY I am!' - that old saddo in the Sunshine State

Quote
The Church is not a building the Church is people coming toegther in one Belief in Jesus christ.


Funny, Mr Hood, I don't remember you answering simple, general (not invading people's privacy) questions on any actual people you claim to minister to. Your website doesn't even list service times. And the schedule of services you wrote (Sundays and Christmas... and that's it) doesn't match what a real Orthodox priest does.

Quote
You don't have to be incommunion with a building that has a name.


Red herring. Your bishop isn't in communion with Orthodox bishops - people not buildings.

Quote
Like The OCA,or Russian or Greek.or Syrian, or AOC.


Sounds like somebody who couldn't or never tried to get into a real seminary or be sponsored at one by a real bishop.

Quote
being in communion  is that All orthodox Churches are in communion togther by Belief and faith.


But that's just like the Protestants and their 'invisible church'.

Quote
it not by who is who or who is better.


Red herring. 'Better' is nothing to do with it. It's to do with what is and what is not. And you and your little church simply are not Orthodox.

Quote
Plus just because a person learns in a small seminary in stead of a large Seminary does not make him any lesser of a priest than a Priest from a larger Seminary.


Right, so which little seminary did you go to? Is it accredited? Meaning, does it grant degrees everybody else recognises? Or is it simply a clergy-training school? (To be fair the real Orthodox have had schools that aren't accredited - that simply train Orthodox priests.)

Quote
I am Paul I am an Orthodox Priest,I am not a Mister.


You are not an Orthodox priest because your bishops aren't on the diptychs of any recognised Orthodox church. To the Orthodox, 'lines of succession' outside their fellowship mean crap. And Rome recognises the Orthodox' 'power of the keys' to recognise or not recognise such things. So guess what, Mr H? You're not a priest. And since I see no proof you have a real ministry to people I'm not going to extend the courtesy of treating you like one.

Quote
I was ordained in sucession through the Apostles and Jesus Christ.

Get it into your head - to the Orthodox your 'succession' is meaningless.

Quote
I an not a vangante or a wannbe for Christ is my Arch Priest and Bishop through him and my belief is the Church and  I serve the people, People do not serve me. The orthodox people are the Church as the church is Jesus christ.  Smiley

Oh, so now Jesus is your bishop. Next...

Again, who are these people you serve? Where geographically? How many? What are their backgrounds? Has your church got ANY born members? Real Orthodox jurisdictions do.
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« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2006, 09:08:52 AM »

YoungFogey:

You seem to be enjoying this too much. this guy is beginning to run in circles with his logic and he protests too much. Let's all go have a beer or lager and then move on!


Goodbye Mr. Hood.

Wasn't that a movie?
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« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2006, 09:43:57 AM »

Is it too early for a martini?
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« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2006, 10:03:55 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9194.msg123316#msg123316 date=1149687837]
Is it too early for a martini?
[/quote]

Yes. Unless you're Winston Churchill...and then you would be drinking scotch and soda as breakfast in bed.

(I once heard Sir Martin Gilbert, Churchill's official biographer, say that Churchill must have had alcohol in his blood 24 hours a day)
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« Reply #50 on: June 07, 2006, 10:06:38 AM »

No, I am not Sir Winston, but I am going to go clip the end ofÂÂ good cigar now anyway.  Cheesy
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« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2006, 10:59:44 AM »

Hi, Demetri

Long time, no read.

Hope all is well.

Ebor
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« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2006, 12:40:08 PM »

Well, I've been away for the past several days, but just to add a quick thought.  Yes, online Orthodox seem like a nasty bunch.  That is why I'm not for online ORthodoxy what so ever.  Although, I think forums have great value and my learning has increased exponentially by here and other sites, it is not Orthodoxy.  Rather, imho, it is a bunch of grumpy men that have gathered to drink and talk Wink  Cool.  Still, my point is I have only once seen real Orthodox Christians get polemical in rl.  So online there may not seem like there is any love here.  However, if you have experienced Orthodoxy in real life that would probably not be your your first assumption.  Believe it or not, most people do not talk about their jurisidiction against the world or this practice against everyone else.  Rather, it's usually something like, "Man I'm tired of bliny, whoops here comes Matushka, smile about the pancakes!" or "Hey, have you seen such move?"  And people almost never (although I have seen it done once) come into a church and damn everyone in it. 

I just get annoyed when I see such comments from Paul Andrew or Anastasiya that say there is no love in Orthodoxy.  Just because we are sticking to our beliefs and because we bicker online doesn't mean there is no love.  Rather, it means that they most likely have not had much interaction with real Orthodox people.  For all my experiences in Orthodox churches have been quite to the contrary.

Daniel
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« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2006, 12:50:13 PM »

Online Orthodox can be nasty and crazy but that wasn't what was happening here: those two, particularly Mr Hood, were only angry that this board and real Orthodox in general wouldn't play along with their game of pretending to be Orthodox priests and nuns.
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« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2006, 12:53:22 PM »

Well, I've been away for the past several days, but just to add a quick thought.ÂÂ  Yes, online Orthodox seem like a nasty bunch.ÂÂ  That is why I'm not for online ORthodoxy what so ever.ÂÂ  Although, I think forums have great value and my learning has increased exponentially by here and other sites, it is not Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  Rather, imho, it is a bunch of grumpy men that have gathered to drink and talk WinkÂÂ  Cool.ÂÂ  Still, my point is I have only once seen real Orthodox Christians get polemical in rl.ÂÂ  So online there may not seem like there is any love here.ÂÂ  However, if you have experienced Orthodoxy in real life that would probably not be your your first assumption.ÂÂ  Believe it or not, most people do not talk about their jurisidiction against the world or this practice against everyone else.ÂÂ  Rather, it's usually something like, "Man I'm tired of bliny, whoops here comes Matushka, smile about the pancakes!" or "Hey, have you seen such move?"ÂÂ  And people almost never (although I have seen it done once) come into a church and damn everyone in it.ÂÂ  

I just get annoyed when I see such comments from Paul Andrew or Anastasiya that say there is no love in Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  Just because we are sticking to our beliefs and because we bicker online doesn't mean there is no love.ÂÂ  Rather, it means that they most likely have not had much interaction with real Orthodox people.ÂÂ  For all my experiences in Orthodox churches have been quite to the contrary.

Daniel

I think the greatest factor contributing to the "attitude" we Orthodox have on forums is the anonymity.  We will never speak to most of the people we meet here in real life, so we don't really care if we offend them.  Sometimes, we may even subconsiously treat people as if they are not real. Due to this, I feel that it's very easy to come off as rude and nasty. We also don't have the ability to express the body language that normaly accompanies our world in the real world, so even if we don't mean to be rude, we can appear that way.

I urge anyone who looks at the negative stuff they see on this forum, and realize that we are not really like this in real life.

In Christ,
Reader Nikolai

edit: I must also add that "Father" Paul Andrew was also being quite rude himself.  His OP seemed to be based on getting everyone to agree with him, and would attack if anyone challenged him.
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« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2006, 01:50:23 PM »

Quote
I must also add that "Father" Paul Andrew was also being quite rude himself.  His OP seemed to be based on getting everyone to agree with him, and would attack if anyone challenged him.

Exactly!
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« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2006, 01:56:09 PM »

Oh yes,
I agree with both sentements above.  And to show the flip side although online people can get nasty, normally the conversations are pretty civil.  Usually it is only a select few that do and they continue to repeat.  However, my point was that I find it offencive when people come here and accuse us of being haters because they have no experience in real Orthodox Churches.  It is a magnificant display of arrogance.  However, most Orthodox Christians are very friendly people.  And you want to know the truth, most people in general are friendly people whatever religion, ethnic, etc.  Just please don't come here and call all Orthodox unloving because you have minimal experience with real Orthodox churches or because we refuse to lower our standards and set aside our beliefs so it can be a I love you and you love me fest.
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« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2006, 03:48:50 PM »

Well I really don't care what you guys say. I didn't start the nasty grap. You can call me what ever you want. But most of you have shown how less you are of being Orthodox. In my first posting I wrote what I have read. What I have heard. what I have seen. I did not come here looking for a free pass or any thing else for that matter. so what if you now more than I do I really don't care.ÂÂ  So no matter what you or your Bishops say, we'll continue to do what we were ordained to do. Plus I really don't care if my Jurisdiction isn't recognized by you. doesn't hurt me one bit. As for our website it is not finished.
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« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2006, 04:06:29 PM »

Is this your church?

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/American_Orthodox_Catholic_Church
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« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2006, 04:18:33 PM »

Well I really don't care what you guys say.

Then Mr. Andrew, why did you start this thread?  I'm sorry, but if it wasn't to have us agree that the AOCC is a "valid" jurisdiction, then there wasn't much reason?

Quote
I didn't start the nasty grap.

No, you mearly became rabidly defensive and insulting when confroted with valid disagreement.
 
Quote
You can call me what ever you want. But most of you have shown how less you are of being Orthodox.

I don't believe anyone called you any names.  Everyone was mearly stating what you are not (the way of negation)
 
Quote
In my first posting I wrote what I have read. What I have heard. what I have seen. I did not come here looking for a free pass or any thing else for that matter.

Again I will ask, what was the purpose of this thread then?

Quote
so what if you now more than I do I really don't care.ÂÂ  So no matter what you or your Bishops say, we'll continue to do what we were ordained to do.

The problem many of us have is that those who "ordained" you had no authority to ordain you. As they were excommunicated.

Quote
Plus I really don't care if my Jurisdiction isn't recognized by you. doesn't hurt me one bit. As for our website it is not finished.

You perfectly allowed to not care, that however is to your own detriment. There is no reason for you "jurisdiction" to exist.  There was a time in the history of Orthodoxy in America where there were some confusing canonical circumstances, but that time is over.  There is no reason for you not to be in one of the Canonical Jurisdictions.

Forgive me if I was blunt, but I cannot do anything other than defend Canonical Orthodoxy.


Reader Nikolai
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« Reply #60 on: June 07, 2006, 04:22:56 PM »

TomS, yes, that's it.
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« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2006, 09:47:24 PM »

I think another thread has already turned into that.  Grin
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9068.0

Ugh, don't remind me!  Wink Grin

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9194.msg123319#msg123319 date=1149689198]
No, I am not Sir Winston, but I am going to go clip the end of good cigar now anyway.  Cheesy
[/quote]

Demetri!  Nice to see you(r avatar) around again!
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« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2006, 11:18:07 PM »


For most of this link the answer is Yes. To the part that talks about THEOCACNA.INC this is not us. That guys is not Orthodox all he has done is sue other Jurisdictions
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« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2006, 01:52:22 AM »

No, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that ANY Orthodox Bishop in this country (or the world for that matter) recognizes your bishops.  Sorry, but that's the way it goes.

Everyone simply claims the fulness of canonicity for his own position and, in the name of it, condemns and denounces as uncanonical the ecclesiastical status of others. And one is amazed by the low level and cynicism of these "canonical" fights in which any insinuation, any distortion is permitted as long as it harms the "enemy."

The concern here is not for truth, but for victories in the form of parishes, bishops, priests "shifting" jurisdictions and joining the "canonical" one. It does not matter that the same bishop or priest was condemning yesterday what today he praises as canonical, that the real motivations behind all these transfers have seldom anything to do with canonical convictions; what matters is victory.

We live in the poisoned atmosphere of anathemas and excommunications, court cases and litigations, dubious consecrations of dubious bishops, hatred, calumny, lies! But do we think about the irreparable moral damage all this inflicts to our people?


http://www.jacwell.org/Fall_Winter99/Fr_Schmemann_The_canonical_problem.htm  OCA
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« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2006, 02:16:38 AM »

Outside the context of their church, the Orthodox say, such 'lines' mean nothing and no amount of pleading or badgering can change that.

When the boys came out to play
Vagante Poseur ran away.

The actual word "Vagante" actually means, "A vagrant bishop without a See or diocese",  I believe Jesus was qualified for this title, according to the pharisees. 

The larger mega-churches such as those who belong to either the Vatican based Roman Church, or one of the Patriarchates; would have you believe that unless you belong to either one of the two Jurisdictions, you are not in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of truth.  This is unkind and not true whatsoever.

...some of the Eastern Orthodox Churches take an arrogant, often elitist approach in which they do not necessarily believe that the Church is large enough to accommodate various philosophies, and even theologies, that are not diametrically opposed to the faith and morals taught by the Apostolic Church, forcing their own by actions of intimidation, and often through newsletters or notices to the faithful with untruthful claims and inaccurate statements about those not under them or one of the primary Patriarchs directly.
http://www.apostle1.com/Vagante1.htm
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« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2006, 02:32:17 AM »

I just get annoyed when I see such comments from Paul Andrew or Anastasiya that say there is no love in Orthodoxy.  Just because we are sticking to our beliefs and because we bicker online doesn't mean there is no love. 
Daniel

    Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous,  is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude.....

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« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2006, 02:53:40 AM »

I must also add that "Father" Paul Andrew was also being quite rude himself.  His OP seemed to be based on getting everyone to agree with him, and would attack if anyone challenged him.

I can sympathize with Father Paul.  Here is a man who has given his  life to Christ, following Him in the simplicity of his heart, like a simple minded fisherman, and he posts a thread that desperately needs to be addressed on this forum.

He is in turn met with callous disrespect, degrading metaphors,  and a complete denial of his holy orders as well as attacks against his bishop and hierarchs??

And those who are doing these things with impunity,  present themselves as authoritative representatives of Christ's true church??   

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« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2006, 03:02:31 AM »

But most of you have shown how less you are of being Orthodox.

We teach our children to be "proud" of Orthodoxy, we constantly congratulate ourselves about all kinds of historic events and achievements, our church publications distill an almost unbearable triumphalism and optimism, yet, if we were true to the spirit of our faith we ought to repent in "sackcloth and ashes," we ought to cry day and night about the sad, the tragical state of our Church.

If "canonicity" is anything but a pharisaic and legalistic self-righteousness, if it has anything to do with the spirit of Christ and the tradition of His Body, the Church, we must openly proclaim that the situation in which we all live is utterly uncanonical regardless of all the justifications and sanctions that every one finds for his "position." For nothing can justify the bare fact: Our Church is divided.

http://www.jacwell.org/Fall_Winter99/Fr_Schmemann_The_canonical_problem.htm  OCA

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« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2006, 06:48:29 AM »

Have you no sense of irony, Mr Hood?

Of course 'THEOCACNA' aren't Orthodox and neither is your church. Which isn't necessarily a presumption of judgement on people's personalities, characters or souls. It's simply fact, like the minister at the Protestant church across the street from my house isn't Orthodox.

I was going to post that Mother Anastasia (using the courtesy title, etc., as I don't know her real name) is somewhat better as in some postings she admits she doesn't know a lot about Orthodoxy, asks questions and listens to the answers, even if she goes on and believes what she did in the first place. But here she's disabused me of that.

At least she and her husband have a ministry to people. Maybe they joined something they honestly thought was Orthodox (many people don't know much about the real Orthodox) and were lied to. But the arrogance beneath the sweet spacey-niceness of her posts suggests she's not ignorant now.

Jesus was God, dear, not somebody bragging about being a Orthodox priest or nun and demanding to be called that. Remember what he said about wanting to be shown respect and called titles?

Friends, if these two are an Orthodox priest and nun then this creepy dude is the Patriarch of Moscow. (Classic vagante game-playing. Like the 'Russian Orthodox' church I saw online complete with three-bar cross dedicated to 'St' Mychal Judge, meaning 'we're gay ex-RCs'.)
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« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2006, 11:09:49 AM »


We live in the poisoned atmosphere of anathemas and excommunications, court cases and litigations, dubious consecrations of dubious bishops, hatred, calumny, lies! But do we think about the irreparable moral damage all this inflicts to our people?


http://www.jacwell.org/Fall_Winter99/Fr_Schmemann_The_canonical_problem.htmÂÂ  OCA

Ah, poor Fr. Schmemann. Sigh. I suppose such is the fate of all text: It acquires a status all its own. Thus, completely divorced from authorial intent, generic limitation and its context, it can be twisted to any misappropriated application.

Mother Anastasia, Fr. Schmemann was actually referring to the many difficulties experienced in Orthodox America BECAUSE OF groups quite similar to the para-church organizations you think you are defending by quoting his article. The "dubious consecrations of dubious bishops", the "court cases and litigations" -- he's talking about groups like the Living Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Church) and some of the Ukrainian Churches, not his fellow con-celebrants from the Eastern Orthodox communion. Furthermore, when he is not writing about these groups (which he condemns soundly), he is criticizing specific controversies within his communion, NOT defending willfully schismatic groups, with which Fr. Schmemann maintained no con-celebration and certainly would not defend as actual recipients or advocates of the Truth he ardently upholds. Thus, none of his arguments defend your position. In fact, they oppose it.

If you read Fr. Schmemann's article attentively (and in its context), you will realize that he is by no means against the canons, canonicity or the officially defined canonical Church. In fact, he is a defender of that Church. His criticism is not directed at SCOBA, which he helped to found, nor even against those canonical Churches that did not ultimately recognize the OCA's autocephaly. His criticism is against the incorrect interpretation and false application of the canonical tradition in specific cases -- an error which, unfortunately, your Church suffers from in spades. Please read his article for its real message, not your own ends or self-justification. His is a call to full canonicity, i.e. canonical unity in the diaspora (something that he obviously and rightly believed could ONLY happen in SCOBA).
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« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2006, 05:10:54 PM »

2.  Jesus was God, dear,

1.  not somebody bragging about being a Orthodox priest or nun and demanding to be called that. Remember what he said about wanting to be shown respect and called titles?

1.  You have heard but you have not understood.

I was addressing the desparity of Christian behavior and charity, not the super abundance of knowledge and pedigrees.

2.  If you truly believe this, and are standing in a place of being His representative, by defining what is true orthodoxy and what is not, should you  not, even more than others, be reflecting the mercy and charity of a tender father who is concerned over the errors of his children?

Hospitality vs Rejection

Mercy vs Judgement

Charity vs Rancor & Bitterness

Instruction vs Condemnation

In short, thinking better of our brother, than we think of ourselves. He may be perfect in all ways but one, his canonical status.

In the Lord's eyes, he may be "Blessed",  who are we to judge another Man's servant?
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« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2006, 05:30:22 PM »

The gospel according to you:

Anybody who doesn't play along with your lies is a big blue meanie without the love of God in his heart. 

Ooookaaaay...

The Orthodox themselves define who's Orthodox.

And you're not.
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« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2006, 06:22:05 PM »

On second thought I believe he ordained two of the bishops before the marriage.  Some came later though.  At any rate, he was excommunicated and they stayed in communion with him, thus incurring his penalty.

Anastasios

Since there is no document that show Aftimios being excommunicated. Puls his own Synod didn't excommunicated, it show that it is all hear say and not valid. No Patriarch.metropolitan or Bishop can interfer in another Jurisdiction Affairs.
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« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2006, 06:35:57 PM »

You say that Aftimios was excommunicated. There has been no such document see[n] or given. Plus no Patriarch or Metropolitan or Bishop can interfer[e] in the [a]ffairs of another [j]urisdiction. Plus since no excommunicated document was sent or given to Aftimios, said document is indeed not va[l]id

I don't think it works that way. I'm fairly sure there are records from the registry office where he was married. That may have automatically excommunicated him.

In any event, after about 1933 he wasn't an Orthodox bishop anymore.
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« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2006, 07:08:05 PM »

I don't think it works that way. I'm fairly sure there are records from the registry office where he was married. That may have automatically excommunicated him.

In any event, after about 1933 he wasn't an Orthodox bishop anymore.

Aftimios steped down as Metropolitan of the American orthodox catholic church By Canon law
and since there is no valid ecommunication. He did what was right.

so with every one saying Aftimios was ex-communicted is all hear say

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« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2006, 07:32:37 PM »

Aftimios as a bishop was also a monk. Monks cannot marry in the Orthodox Church--ever. NEVER. PERIOD. AT ALL. EVER. NO DISPENSATION. PERIOD.*  So by doing so, he excommunicated himself. No need for a document to specify that--he committed a sin that kept him away from communion so he was "excommunicated."

Anyone who communed with him supported him and was hence also excommunicated. This is how the holy canons in Orthodoxy work.

Anastasios

(* The only case where I have ever heard of this happening was Johaan Von Gardener, but I am not sure if he was allowed to commune after his marriage.  I suppose it may have happened somewhere in history that an already married monk with a family repented and may have been allowed to return to communion, but the fact that I have never in all of my readings or studies found such an example confirms in my mind the consistency of Orthodoxy on this point).
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« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2006, 08:01:17 PM »

some of you guys make me sick. you call yourselves Orthodox because your in a major Orthodox Church. and that everything you say and do is canonical. You use the canon law when it suites you when being threaten by Independent Orthodox Jurisdiction which you say they are Vangantes and wannabe clergy. you people misuse the Canon laws. By  who's authority  gives you the right to say who is and who isn't Orthodox.

I'll tell you , not the church not canon law, it is all by your interpation.

The Independent Jurisdtion who are Orthodox, do not have to be incommunion with Main Stream Churches or be long to Scoba, which I have heard is only a coffee club. What has Scoba done for Orthodoxy in America nothing.

take my advice and go to this web page http://www.apostle1.com/Vagante1.htm and do some reading
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« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2006, 08:05:06 PM »

Aftimios as a bishop was also a monk. Monks cannot marry in the Orthodox Church--ever. NEVER. PERIOD. AT ALL. EVER. NO DISPENSATION. PERIOD.*ÂÂ  So by doing so, he excommunicated himself. No need for a document to specify that--he committed a sin that kept him away from communion so he was "excommunicated."

Anyone who communed with him supported him and was hence also excommunicated. This is how the holy canons in Orthodoxy work.

Anastasios

(* The only case where I have ever heard of this happening was Johaan Von Gardener, but I am not sure if he was allowed to commune after his marriage.ÂÂ  I suppose it may have happened somewhere in history that an already married monk with a family repented and may have been allowed to return to communion, but the fact that I have never in all of my readings or studies found such an example confirms in my mind the consistency of Orthodoxy on this point).



Then I guess it is the same with the Syrian Orthodox Church that stayed in-communion with him, does this make them
Ex-communicated as well.
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« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2006, 08:14:17 PM »

some of you guys make me sick. you call yourselves Orthodox because your in a major Orthodox Church.

We are in THE Orthodox Church.

Quote
and that everything you say and do is canonical. You use the canon law when it suites you when being threaten by Independent Orthodox Jurisdiction

I'm sorry Mr. Andrew, there is no such thing as an "Independant Orthodox jurisdiction", the very concept goes against Orthodox Ecclesiology.

Quote
which you say the are Vangantes and wannabe clergy. you people misuse the Canon laws. By  who's authority  gives you the right to say who is and who isn't Orthodox. I'll tell you , not the church not canon law, it is all by your interpation.

Sir, you need to understand something, You are either Orthodox or you are not.  If a group with no canonical backing suddenly shows up and declares that it is Orthodox, it must be able to prove this. As you cannot, you are not Orthodox.  It's very simple.  I'm sorry if that offends you. But, it's the truth.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Quote
The Independent Jurisdtion who are Orthodox, do not have to be incommunion with Main Stream Churches or be long to Scoba, which I have heard is only a coffee club.

Hmmmmm... So, when you run out of arguments you just resort to hearsay and rumours.

Quote
What has Scoba done for Orthodoxy in America nothing.

It has at least attempted to unite American Orthodoxy.  Even though it hasn't succeded, that does not make them worthless.

Quote
take my advice and go to this web page http://www.apostle1.com/Vagante1.htm and do some reading

There are better things to spend ones time doing.


Reader Nikolai
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« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2006, 08:44:17 PM »




Then I guess it is the same with the Syrian Orthodox Church that stayed in-communion with him, does this make them
Ex-communicated as well.

Yes. And by the way, just for the record, I am not a member of a SCOBA jurisdiction. I am a Greek Old Calendarist. However, I still cannot accept your position because it is not Orthodox.

I believe you need a better understanding of what canons are and what their spiritual implications are. I'd suggest you read "Spiritual Dimensions of the Holy Canons" by Lewis Patsavos, Holy Cross Press, 2004. A very short and consise explanation.

Anastasios
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« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2006, 10:22:57 PM »

We are in THE Orthodox Church.

I'm sorry Mr. Andrew, there is no such thing as an "Independant Orthodox jurisdiction", the very concept goes against Orthodox Ecclesiology.

Sir, you need to understand something, You are either Orthodox or you are not.  If a group with no canonical backing suddenly shows up and declares that it is Orthodox, it must be able to prove this. As you cannot, you are not Orthodox.  It's very simple.  I'm sorry if that offends you. But, it's the truth.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Hmmmmm... So, when you run out of arguments you just resort to hearsay and rumours.

It has at least attempted to unite American Orthodoxy.  Even though it hasn't succeded, that does not make them worthless.

There are better things to spend ones time doing.


Reader Nikolai
[/quot


I disagree with you.

One. it was The Russian Orthodox Church that created The American Orthodox Catholic Church as signed my the Ruling Hiearchs of the Russian Orthodox Church in America. The American Orthodox Catholic Catholic Church by All rights is and remains Orthodox. and follows  all the Canon Laws of the seven Eumenical Councils. You want to talk about canon Law. when The Russian Orthodox Church in America gave the American Orthodox Catholic Church it's Autonomy. Makes this Church the first American orthodox Church in America. By Canon Law. the ruling Hiearchs and all Bishop and Priest and Deacons and Lower clergy in America should have come under the jurisdiction of the new Church. So says Canon Law.

2. Since The American Orthodox Catholic Church is Autophelous Autonomous Jurisdiction by it's right by Canon Law. The other Orthodox Jurisdiction that came in to this Country violated Canon Law and setting up their own Jurisdiction also violated Canon Law.

3. Since The OCA aka Russian Orthodox Greek Cathoolic Church was gaven it's Autonomy By the Then Communist Church in Russia it also Violted Canon Law by creating another Autophelous Orthodox Church in America.
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« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2006, 10:32:25 PM »

Father Paul,

When making quotes, make sure to write your text below the part that is [/quote] so that your text does not show up in the quote.

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« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2006, 10:34:04 PM »

Fr Paul and Mother Anastasia,

I ask this in all sincerity. This group:

http://come.to/moorishorthodoxy

claims to have apostolic succession but is a kind of Gnostic/Muslim/Orthodox amalgamation.  Are they part of the Church in some way too?  I realize this is an extreme example but would like to know where you draw the line.

Anastasios
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« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2006, 10:36:10 PM »

Yes. And by the way, just for the record, I am not a member of a SCOBA jurisdiction. I am a Greek Old Calendarist. However, I still cannot accept your position because it is not Orthodox.

I believe you need a better understanding of what canons are and what their spiritual implications are. I'd suggest you read "Spiritual Dimensions of the Holy Canons" by Lewis Patsavos, Holy Cross Press, 2004. A very short and consise explanation.

Anastasios

Well my friend since you too think I am not Orthodox I could say the same to you. But since I can't do to that Metropolitan Joachim Souris Of Blessed Memory was the Metropolitan of Athens Greece for the Old Calandar Church and Co-consecrator to one of our former Metropolitan, Metroplitan Walter Propheta of Blessed Memory and who was Spiritual Father to my Former Metroplitan Demitrius J King Former Metropolitan of Los Angeles an all North America
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« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2006, 10:51:44 PM »

Fr Paul and Mother Anastasia,

I ask this in all sincerity. This group:

http://come.to/moorishorthodoxy

claims to have apostolic succession but is a kind of Gnostic/Muslim/Orthodox amalgamation.  Are they part of the Church in some way too?  I realize this is an extreme example but would like to know where you draw the line.

Anastasios

Dear Anastasios,

Thank you for charitably posing this question. 

I am going to begin a thread on this topic, but I am praying for wisdom in how to word it.

Please pray for me.

In His loving kindness, your sister in Christ,

Mother Anastasia
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« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2006, 11:10:35 PM »

Well my friend since you too think I am not Orthodox I could say the same to you. But since I can't do to that Metropolitan Joachim Souris Of Blessed Memory was the Metropolitan of Athens Greece for the Old Calandar Church and Co-consecrator to one of our former Metropolitan, Metroplitan Walter Propheta of Blessed Memory and who was Spiritual Father to my Former Metroplitan Demitrius J King Former Metropolitan of Los Angeles an all North America

 Wink Don't worry, there are at least a few of us who are skeptical or think his Orthodoxy is dubious....and I'd be rather surprised if he wasn't aware of this or even felt that same way as most of us as well!  But of course, none of us are saying that he or the other (just you and Mother Anastasia) are sick or mean.
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« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2006, 11:38:38 PM »

Wink Don't worry, there are at least a few of us who are skeptical or think his Orthodoxy is dubious....and I'd be rather surprised if he wasn't aware of this or even felt that same way as most of us as well!ÂÂ  But of course, none of us are saying that he or the other (just you and Mother Anastasia) are sick or mean.

Anastasios' Jurisdiction and the AOCC are two completly different animals.  The GOC has canonically ordained bishops who are in schism over matters of faith. (which I happen to disagree with, they however have much more respect from me than some wannabe Orthodox pretenders) The AOCC is still clinging onto a dead line of sucession from a self-excommunicated bishop.
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« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2006, 03:02:18 AM »

When St. Irenaeus of Lyons needed to confront the Gnostic heretics, he did so by appealing to the institution of the Church and by pointing out how the heretics were not part of the institutional Church.  St. Cyprian made the same appeal to the visible instituation of the Church when he confronted the Novatian schismatics and denied the validity of their baptisms.

Today we have a plethora of pseudo-Orthodox sects who claim to be Orthodox and argue that we show hatred and judgmentalism when we continue to proclaim their excommunicated status.  However, should we not follow the examples of the great saints Irenaeus and Cyprian by pointing out how these sects cannot be Orthodox because they are not in communion with the institutional Church?
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« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2006, 03:11:27 AM »

some of you guys make me sick. you call yourselves Orthodox because your in a major Orthodox Church. and that everything you say and do is canonical. You use the canon law when it suites you when being threaten by Independent Orthodox Jurisdiction which you say they are Vangantes and wannabe clergy. you people misuse the Canon laws. By  who's authority  gives you the right to say who is and who isn't Orthodox.

I'll tell you , not the church not canon law, it is all by your interpation.

The Independent Jurisdtion who are Orthodox, do not have to be incommunion with Main Stream Churches or be long to Scoba, which I have heard is only a coffee club. What has Scoba done for Orthodoxy in America nothing.

take my advice and go to this web page http://www.apostle1.com/Vagante1.htm and do some reading

Does the Russian Orthodox Church, from whom you supposedly gained your right to exist, recognize the validity of your group? Do you concelebrate with your "mother" Church? If not, why not?

(This is rhetorical, of course).

P.S.
Good thing canonical status isn't judged by spelling and grammar, eh?  Wink
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« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2006, 03:47:30 AM »

Anastasios' Jurisdiction and the AOCC are two completly different animals.ÂÂ  The GOC has canonically ordained bishops who are in schism over matters of faith. (which I happen to disagree with, they however have much more respect from me than some wannabe Orthodox pretenders) The AOCC is still clinging onto a dead line of sucession from a self-excommunicated bishop.

You must have a one track mind which is stuck on tape one saying ex-communication over and over
If Aftimios's wife who passed either in 1999 0r 2000. any way if she was still here and if she heard the
way you talk about her husband she would most likely smack you clear a round a Pole. ÂÂ
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« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2006, 04:41:17 AM »

Our Business with the Russian Patriach is our business.It has been and over sight with in our Jurisdiction. we have a time and please for very thing. we leave it up to the lord.

one thing is that we don't have to deal with a Communist Patriarch and kiss his behid like the OCA did when Metropolitan Ireney was running the show back in 1970. just so you know this was told to me several years ago be for I was baptist and confirmed in to the orthodox Church.

Plus I have my connection in Russia with serveral Priest whom I am very good friends with.
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« Reply #91 on: June 09, 2006, 06:37:28 AM »

Well put, Peter.

Our Business with the Russian Patriach is our business.It has been and over sight with in our Jurisdiction. we have a time and please for very thing. we leave it up to the lord.

one thing is that we don't have to deal with a Communist Patriarch and kiss his behid like the OCA did when Metropolitan Ireney was running the show back in 1970. just so you know this was told to me several years ago be for I was baptist and confirmed in to the orthodox Church.

Plus I have my connection in Russia with serveral Priest whom I am very good friends with.

That means no, they can't concelebrate with the Russians.

Now who's being mean and judgemental, Mr Hood? The OCA don't accept your games so you badmouth them.

Once again: the folks who confirmed you weren't telling you the truth. They aren't Orthodox.
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« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2006, 11:24:35 AM »

Ever since I came in to this forum.it has been nothing but hear says,like the old saying of He said or she said.
so far I have hear nothing but (B.S)You Say that the AOCC is dead do to Aftimios getting Married. Now let me say this one point. One side says that the Patriarch of Constantinople Excommunicated Aftimios for being married and one side says he Excommunicated himself. Point who can you believe. Now from another stand point there are those who say differently of point one and point two.

Now lets look at is point about the AOCC. you say that the Bishops who were with Aftimios and stayed incommuinon with him also excommunicated them selfs as well. Now lets look at Sophronios Bishara who was one of Aftimios Bishop, How can he be excommunicated and return to the Russian Metropolia in America. So here another point of hear says. We can't say much about Joseph Zuk Aftimios 's second Bishop who passedaway around that time. Now there is Ignatius Nichols who was consecrated in 1932.Now he was the Last bishop in the Aftimios synod. Now being the last Bishop he had asked another bishop by the name of Ambrosius of ammon.I don't know to much about him. Now he and Ignatius Nichols Consecrated Georgios Plummer in which was a new synod. so from here Aftimios is married and has a family and now we have a new Synod with out the three primary Bishop. Ofiesh,Bishara,Zuk. So the AOCC is some what thriving. with new Bishops as well as a new Synod.ÂÂ  we have another point of hears says. going all the way to Walter Propheta. so again there is hear say. So I'll leave here for you to give me more hears says.

For those in the OCA I do Apologize for my remark about metropolitan Ireny as this was something that was told to me.
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« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2006, 11:49:45 AM »

Ever since I came in to this forum.it has been nothing but hear says,like the old saying of He said or she said.
so far I have hear nothing but (B.S)You Say that the AOCC is dead do to Aftimios getting Married. Now let me say this one point. One side says that the Patriarch of Constantinople Excommunicated Aftimios for being married and one side says he Excommunicated himself. Point who can you believe. Now from another stand point there are those who say differently of point one and point two.

My! It's easier to read and understand my small-print and partially ripped German translation of the Gospel of Truth than it is to read these posts! Is anyone else thoroughly tired of this thread?

Fr. Paul: If all you have heard since coming to this forum is, as you so clerically put it, B.S., why are you continuing to visit this site? What is your purpose? Are you trying to convince members of this board that you are indeed a member of the same Church as we? If so, this is demonstrably false, since -- for whatever reason -- we do not share the same cup. You may certainly disapprove of this fact, but fact it remains, and it thus does not behoove you or us to continue this fruitless line of discussion.

All: I suggest to the members of this board that we let this thread die. Our brother's motives are (at best) unclear, and his attitude completely intransigent and belligerent. Should he desire to discuss other matters of actual import (such as Orthodox doctrine, life, etc.) on a different thread, with a different attitude, and, perhaps, with the aid of a copy editor, I would be far more kindly disposed to entertain his contributions to the forum. Until then, adieu.
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« Reply #94 on: June 09, 2006, 12:05:34 PM »

Well my friend since you too think I am not Orthodox I could say the same to you. But since I can't do to that Metropolitan Joachim Souris Of Blessed Memory was the Metropolitan of Athens Greece for the Old Calandar Church and Co-consecrator to one of our former Metropolitan, Metroplitan Walter Propheta of Blessed Memory and who was Spiritual Father to my Former Metroplitan Demitrius J King Former Metropolitan of Los Angeles an all North America

Joachim Souris was a schismatic ordained by the Soviet-based patriarchate in its attempts to gain control of foreign churches in the 1930's and 40's.  He then went to Greece and set up an altar against the real head of the GOC, Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina and his successors Archbishop Akakios and Auxentios.  Those are the heads of the Greek Old Calendarist Church--not Joachim Souris.

Anastasios
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« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2006, 12:08:28 PM »

You must have a one track mind which is stuck on tape one saying ex-communication over and over
If Aftimios's wife who passed either in 1999 0r 2000. any way if she was still here and if she heard the
way you talk about her husband she would most likely smack you clear a round a Pole. ÂÂ

I actually took the time to read her biography of him.  I am not as ignorant as you think.  How does saying that she would smack someone around a Pole endear us to your position? It just makes your case look even worse!  This is not Christian.

Anastasios
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« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2006, 12:11:07 PM »

My! It's easier to read and understand my small-print and partially ripped German translation of the Gospel of Truth than it is to read these posts! Is anyone else thoroughly tired of this thread?

Fr. Paul: If all you have heard since coming to this forum is, as you so clerically put it, B.S., why are you continuing to visit this site? What is your purpose? Are you trying to convince members of this board that you are indeed a member of the same Church as we? If so, this is demonstrably false, since -- for whatever reason -- we do not share the same cup. You may certainly disapprove of this fact, but fact it remains, and it thus does not behoove you or us to continue this fruitless line of discussion.

It's tiresome all right.

He obviously wants to be 'validated' (ha ha) in his pose as a priest.

Once again (sigh), I'm not being prideful or a meanie: if somebody who thought he was a priest, Orthodox or otherwise, but really isn't, but provably had a real ministry in a real place to real human beings, came here and talked about his work, he'd get my respect. He'd have earned it.

This guy obviously has no theology or real education, just a bunch of 'B.S.' he picked up from somewhere (probably some harebrained correspondence-course 'seminary') about having 'canonical lines' and obsesses about, and no actual ministry, and then barges in here demanding to be respected like a real priest...

... and abuses you in a most un-priestly manner if you don't.

Again, remember what Jesus said about showboaters like that, who love to be greeted in the marketplace with great shows of respect?

Kindly p*ss off, Mr Hood.
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« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2006, 01:44:52 PM »

Today we have a plethora of pseudo-Orthodox sects who claim to be Orthodox and argue that we show hatred and judgmentalism when we continue to proclaim their excommunicated status.  However, should we not follow the examples of the great saints Irenaeus and Cyprian by pointing out how these sects cannot be Orthodox because they are not in communion with the institutional Church?

It is not the substance of what is being said in defense of what you believe to be the only true orthodox church,  it is the heart attitude with which it is said.

If Irenaeus and Cyprian are truly saints,  they had the heart of God which is to bring all men to the knowledge of the truth, in one unity of purpose.

As an outsider new to this forum, I see dividing lines being drawn and cast in concrete, without any hope of reconciliation or communion.

It is very troubling to me that these lines are not drawn over heretical doctrine but rather over canonical and jurisdictional issues.

I don't understand why this forum isn't working towards unity by  showing  hospitality, and defusing and wining over those who come in a defensive posture,  with a mind's eye to bringing them into communion.

In the meantime, if I might make a suggestion,  this subject of jurisdiction and canonicity can turn very ugly in a heartbeat. Rather than posting this in a place where Catholics considering conversion to Orthodoxy can be turned completely off, how much trouble  would it be for you to create a topic for this issue, moderated by a mature fatherly figure, whose heart is towards communion, but has knowledge of the different issues that divide, so that people like us could actually make a little progress in understanding? 

In the meantime, to protect people from misunderstanding who one or the other might be, clarifying (as you did in my case) that we are independent jurisdiction, not part of the mainline E.O.And perhaps enforce a policy of respecting the titles of those who post here, Mother, Father, Brother....but this position would be further clarified by jurisdiction.  I believe that most Christians seeking the true faith, are mature enough to recognize one another by the Spirit, and certainly the moderators could step in and point out false doctrine, should it arise.

I don't think it is faith issues that divide us brothers,  rather it is the canons.

I believe this forum has tremendous potential to make straight the way of the Lord, to build up His kingdom on earth and to bring all men to the knowledge of truth.  This is my prayer for you.
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« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2006, 02:26:08 PM »

It is not the substance of what you are saying, in defense of what you believe to be the only true orthodox church,ÂÂ  it is the heart attitude with which it is said.


How can ANYONE make any rational judgment of someone's heart or "heart attitde" from online posts.  Really.  I argue or debate things with people online (not just here) and don't have a clue how they are in real life.  The nature of many online discussions is deliberate polemnical debates/arguments.  The topics can be practical in nature as well, but the written word is EXTREMELY difficult to convey intent and demeanor let alone just putting your thoughts into intelligible form.
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« Reply #99 on: June 09, 2006, 04:08:49 PM »

It is not the substance of what you are saying, in defense of what you believe to be the only true orthodox church,  it is the heart attitude with which it is said.
And how are you qualified to judge the heart attitude that motivated my post?  (Need I mention that I found your apparent judgment of my attitude personally insulting?  :'()  As Elisha stated so well, the weakness of this medium of the written word really doesn't allow me to communicate my heart's attitude unless I state it explicitly.  Even then, it's extremely easy for someone to judge from the rest of my words that I'm lying about my attitude.

Quote
As an outsider new to this forum, I see dividing lines being drawn and cast in concrete, without any hope of reconciliation or communion.

It is very troubling to me that these lines are not drawn over heretical doctrine but rather over canonical and jurisdictional issues.
Unless you truly understand the importance we Orthodox attach to our canonical tradition, your statements above just come across as judgmental and rude because of their ignorance.  Why do you automatically conclude that we draw our dividing lines based on canonical and jurisdictional issues, as if these are actually bad per se?  Do you not see that many of these issues really are issues of heretical doctrine against the authority of the Holy Spirit?

Quote
I don't think it is faith issues that divide us brothers,  rather it is the canons.
Obedience to the canons is an issue of our faith in the Church, the Body of Christ.
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« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2006, 04:15:53 PM »

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How does saying that she would smack someone around a Pole endear us to your position?

In that the rules of English stipulate only proper nouns are to be capitalized, I'm wondering if I am supposed to take offense at that statement. 

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« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2006, 04:36:46 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123696#msg123696 date=1149884153]
In that the rules of English stipulate only proper nouns are to be capitalized, I'm wondering if I am supposed to take offense at that statement.ÂÂ  


[/quote]

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« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2006, 05:13:30 PM »

And how are you qualified to judge the heart attitude that motivated my post?  (Need I mention that I found your apparent judgment of my attitude personally insulting?  :'() 

 Sad  I'm very sorry, I did not mean you personally.  Please forgive me. Undecided
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« Reply #103 on: June 09, 2006, 05:15:28 PM »

And how are you qualified to judge the heart attitude that motivated my post? 

When you read the beatitudes, you are reading His Heart.

Elisha:  "How can ANYONE make any rational judgment of someone's heart or "heart attitde" from online posts"

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks....
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« Reply #104 on: June 09, 2006, 05:27:30 PM »

When you read the beatitudes, you are reading His Heart.

Elisha:  "How can ANYONE make any rational judgment of someone's heart or "heart attitde" from online posts"

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks....
But when listening to the mouth you can hear tone of voice, and you can see body language, two extremely important elements of communication that can help you "read between the lines" and understand a person's attitude much more accurately.  You can hear the loving tone with which someone speaks the most confrontational words and know that one is speaking in love and not harsh judgment.  You can hear the sarcasm that one uses to speak the greatest praise of you and know that they really resent you.  Tone of voice and body language are impossible to communicate on an internet forum, which is why the words we write here are extremely unreliable measures of attitude.
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« Reply #105 on: June 09, 2006, 05:30:37 PM »

Unless you truly understand the importance we Orthodox attach to our canonical tradition,

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.

Unless we have love brothers,  all the truth in our canons is nothing but a noisy gong.

 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;

7  (Charity) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, (unity?),   endureth all things. (our ignorance, with a mind to educating and bringing us in?)

8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. (canons as well)

9 For we know in part... 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.  (canons as well)

13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.







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« Reply #106 on: June 09, 2006, 05:42:02 PM »

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.
But it all comes back to the same issue between you and this forum.  What makes you qualified to judge the hearts of others here?  I'm personally getting very tired of us being harangued by your frequent bursts of judgmentalism.
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« Reply #107 on: June 09, 2006, 05:53:28 PM »

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.

Unless we have love brothers,ÂÂ  all the truth in our canons is nothing but a noisy gong.

No, it's an *AND* issue (to phrase it like many of us techy types)....otherwise there is no difference between Orthodox and Budhists.
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« Reply #108 on: June 09, 2006, 06:24:20 PM »

We can't say much about Joseph Zuk, Aftimios 's second Bishop who passed away around that time.
Actually he remained a canonical Orthodox Hierarch until his death in 1934.
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« Reply #109 on: June 09, 2006, 06:44:35 PM »

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.

Unless we have love brothers,  all the truth in our canons is nothing but a noisy gong.

 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;

7  (Charity) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, (unity?),   endureth all things. (our ignorance, with a mind to educating and bringing us in?)

8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. (canons as well)

9 For we know in part... 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.  (canons as well)

13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

This should have been prefaced with 'Warning:extreme irony ahead'.

Love is patient, love is kind...

It doesn't barge into a forum bragging about titles one didn't earn.

It isn't puffed up indeed.

When nicely told the truth it doesn't come back with 'I just don't see the love of Jesus anywhere in you', 'I don't care what you say', 'you make me sick', etc. etc.

You're nicer than the other one - you admitted you aren't in a canonical church, that you don't know that much about Orthodoxy and asked questions.

Now you're dragging yourself down to Mr Hood's level.

Tell you what: I'll recognise you lot as Orthodox priests and nuns if you accept my claim of valid succession from His Highness Norton I, Emperor of the United States (a real person who lived in San Francisco), as King of the World and pay taxes to me. I can even throw up a website listing my 'lines' and post on message boards berating anybody who doesn't accept my God-given right to rule... those big meanies!  Tongue
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« Reply #110 on: June 09, 2006, 08:28:27 PM »

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I can even throw up a website listing my 'lines' and post on message boards berating anybody who doesn't accept my God-given right to rule...

Please do share. 
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« Reply #111 on: June 10, 2006, 11:53:21 AM »

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.

As has been said, canonical tradition lets us know where a starting point is.  We very much disagree with you regarding who is canonically Orthodox.  Some have stated this more bluntly than others.  Would you be willing, ma'am, to concede that simply because I think that neither you nor the poster going by the name of "Fr. Paul Andrew" are not, in fact, Orthodox--that this does not automatically make me uncharitable and unhospitable?  It only means, imo, that I disagree with you and him.  Yet FPA says that merely disagreeing with his stance makes us Pharisees and unChristian and mean and whatever else. 

Quote
Unless we have love brothers,  all the truth in our canons is nothing but a noisy gong.

This is true.  Yet without all the truth in our canons, our love is just an unfocused, pointless sentiment.

Quote
7  (Charity) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, (unity?),   endureth all things. (our ignorance, with a mind to educating and bringing us in?)

We definitely hope for unity, but we will not do so at the expense of truth.  If we admitted your group or FPA's group to SCOBA communion, we basically would give a green light to all the doctrines we disagree on still.  Are you aware, ma'am, that SCOBA (as well as the rest of the institutional, mainline Orthodox Church worldwide) believes that they alone constitute the Church, and considers this a fundamental doctrine of what it means to be Orthodox?  If you admit that you need to be educated and brought in, would you truly be willing to reconcile to this and work towards what's been called "true ecumenism" by many Orthodox: that is, the universal conversion of all men to the Orthodox faith?

Quote
8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. (canons as well)

9 For we know in part... 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.  (canons as well)

Yes...were we perfect and not sinners, we wouldn't need the canons, or icons, or the Eucharist, or even the Bible for that matter.  But we do need them, and until they pass away at the full revelation of Christ, there they stand, helping to guide the Church.

I hope this has been charitable, yet firm.
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« Reply #112 on: June 10, 2006, 12:41:13 PM »

This is true.ÂÂ  Yet without all the truth in our canons, our love is just an unfocused, pointless sentiment.

Excellent point. Although most (okay all) here would not call me Orthodox, and although I have a very hard time agreeing with my Church on some major issues, I absolutely believe that the Church can, and should, define the praxis and tenents of the Faith. Someone has to set the rules.

The problem for me is that they are just so hard to confrom to that it is easier to rail against them!ÂÂ  Cheesy It has never been easy for me to be a follower nor to believe something is so because someone in authority says it is. I need validation before I accept something! Makes things difficult in matters of faith.
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« Reply #113 on: June 10, 2006, 01:32:22 PM »

TomS,
Please define "validation" or your concept of a validating authority.
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« Reply #114 on: June 10, 2006, 07:56:13 PM »

Dear Pedro,

Thank you for your kind reply,  I am edified  by your answer.  Disagreements are inevitable,  but at least we can be polite and respectful, a gentle answer turns away rath, and may even convert a soul.

I understand the firmness of your perspective,  and by the standards you use, I would not expect you to call us Orthodox.  Using your standards, we more closely resemble heterodox.  However by our practice, we are moving towards Orthodoxy, slowly incorporating the changes from our Latin background, and continuing to inquire into a canonical Orthodox covering where we could receive more help and instruction.  Although if that means that we must condemn everything Catholic,  we will never arrive there.

I cannot speak for the intentions of the other poster, but I  do understand  some of the concerns voiced here.   I really appreciate the Christian example you have set in your firm but polite response.  Thank you.

In His Peace and Mercy

Mother Anastasia

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« Reply #115 on: June 10, 2006, 08:14:39 PM »

  a green light to all the doctrines we disagree on still.

I'd like to know exactly what doctrines you have in mind, since I believe that to be the most important issue.  So far I haven't been able to put together a complete list, simplified, so that I could examine the issues. 

I do understand the canonical ordinations and consecrations and the reasons for them, but I don't understand, for instance, how one minute a person could be so heartily condemned and then the next minute after their papers are examined they could be brought into SCOBA for instance, and be truly Orthodox, when what they believed hasn't changed, only their paperwork and standing.

I guess that's my major misunderstanding with all this,  no one seems really interested in what we believe, or teach others, only in what group we belong to.  And if Father consecrates the Eucharist, is it truly the Body and Blood in your eyes?  Can the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist exist outside of SCOBA?

I really am trying to get to the bottom of it all.  And from the reactions of some on this forum,  we stand just as condemned before you as we would before a Catholic bishop for "leaving"  the church in the first place.  Call it an uninformed conscience if you must, but we simply could not go on.  And there seems to be little hope from your group if in order to be in the True Church, we have to condemn everything Catholic. 

Perhaps you can understand my dilemna.
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« Reply #116 on: June 10, 2006, 08:41:29 PM »

Mother Anastasia,
First of all, thank you very much for the change of information in your profile.
I do understand the canonical ordinations and consecrations and the reasons for them, but I don't understand, for instance, how one minute a person could be so heartily condemned and then the next minute after their papers are examined they could be brought into SCOBA for instance, and be truly Orthodox, when what they believed hasn't changed, only their paperwork and standing.
 

If some group were really condemned and then they became validated, that transpires not through the paperwork, but instead by repentance of this group and their overcoming of questionable and false doctrines.
Another thing may happen when the fact of schism and / or absence of communion is present, without any ideological controversy and heresy. While schism by itself always appears to be an extremely painful thing, it often can take less efforts to heal.
Edited for spelling.
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« Reply #117 on: June 10, 2006, 09:46:22 PM »

Reasons I can respect your position, MA:

You aren't calling yourself Orthodox now that you know better.

And you have a real ministry.
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« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2006, 01:35:08 AM »


I do understand the canonical ordinations and consecrations and the reasons for them, but I don't understand, for instance, how one minute a person could be so heartily condemned and then the next minute after their papers are examined they could be brought into SCOBA for instance, and be truly Orthodox, when what they believed hasn't changed, only their paperwork and standing.


In all humility, please consider the following thoughts: Christianity is all about relationships, both of the person with Christ, and of the person with other people, who are of course attempting to become the fulfillment and future of humanity, which is Christ.

So, the reason a sudden change can occur as you point out isn't just a paperwork issue, but what it reveals is that the relationship between the person and the Church has been corrected and renewed through the Holy Spirit as revealed through the Mysteries of the Church. That is how things can change--because now it is known that the Spirit has moved among them, instead of merely suspected or hoped for: the correction of the person's relationship to the Church has changed. This is the nature of Pentecost, which many of us will be celebrating this morning: the sudden arrival of the Spirit to form the Church changed the world in that moment, while to many others nothing visible changed other than some people wandered into the street to speak in languages they understood.

Quote
I guess that's my major misunderstanding with all this,ÂÂ  no one seems really interested in what we believe, or teach others, only in what group we belong to.ÂÂ  And if Father consecrates the Eucharist, is it truly the Body and Blood in your eyes?ÂÂ  Can the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist exist outside of SCOBA?

Well, to be honest with you, we are interested in what you teach, because frankly not all of it is Orthodox, but I think you realize that now while perhaps earlier you did not. And, frankly, it actually is important what 'group' you belong to, because the Church has always been an institution that has existed in a physical way.

The questions you pose--I have no answer for them, because while we know where the Church is, we do not know where the Church is not. We know that the Eucharist in the SCOBA-affiliated Churches are truly the Body and Blood of Christ. Because we are uncertain of your eucharist, we must be cautious and not receive it, since its reception would imply we agree with your teachings which are at odds with what we know to be Truth. Please respect the fact that this is our way, since this is the way taught us since Early Christian times.

Therefore, just be patient with us. Not one of us wishes you ill.

Quote
...And there seems to be little hope from your group if in order to be in the True Church, we have to condemn everything Catholic.ÂÂ  

Perhaps you can understand my dilemna.

Nobody is saying you have to 'reject everything Catholic'; my wife, who was Catholic, noted that really she did not have to adjust her thinking much at all, and in fact Orthodoxy settled many of the questions she had been quietly asking herself about her former faith. Sometimes we on the Internet get a bit histrionic about things, and it truly can seem like you're getting beaten upon when you ask a question and 6 or 8 Orthodox posters all chime in in rapid succession with their opinions. The responses seem like a deluge of personal rejection, especially when many of the responders indulge their egos and try to outdo each other in hyperbole. Please forgive us for our offenses in that regard.

Really, I understand your dilemma, as my wife and I have walked that same path before. It is very hard, full of pain and anger, confusion and joy. This is because it is in fact a relationship!

 If it is of any comfort to you, please know that I shall be praying for you as I assist near the altar in a few hours.
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« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2006, 05:19:20 AM »

Just a note to say although all the SCOBA churches are in the Orthodox communion, not all Orthodox churches in America belong to SCOBA: the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad for example is universally recognised as in the communion but not a member of SCOBA.
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« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2006, 02:25:39 PM »

Just a note to say although all the SCOBA churches are in the Orthodox communion, not all Orthodox churches in America belong to SCOBA: the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad for example is universally recognised as in the communion but not a member of SCOBA.

Correct. And to which we might also add the Church of Moscow which still directly controls 50+ parishes in North America. I do not think one can get more Orthodox as far as universal acceptance with them either; I do not believe they have SCOBA representation or membership.
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« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2006, 03:05:22 PM »

The reason I didn't mention Moscow's Patriarchal Parishes in the US (I think that's their formal name) is because they are in SCOBA by proxy, represented by the OCA.
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« Reply #122 on: June 11, 2006, 03:45:50 PM »

Actually he remained a canonical Orthodox Hierarch until his death in 1934.

Thank you. you are the only one that give a stright answer.

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« Reply #123 on: June 11, 2006, 03:56:22 PM »

Thank you. you are the only one that give a stright answer.



hmmmm. I believe everyone here was giving very straight answers.  You just don't agree with them.
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« Reply #124 on: June 11, 2006, 06:29:35 PM »


We are in THE Orthodox Church.


Reader Nikolai


Your not the only one



I'm sorry Mr. Andrew, there is no such thing as an "Independant Orthodox jurisdiction", the very concept goes against Orthodox Ecclesiology.

Reader Nikolai

I guess this leave you out as well. you say there is no such thingÂÂ  as a independant Orthodox Jurisdiction. The word independant means Autonomy or Autonomous. how ever you look at it



Sir, you need to understand something, You are either Orthodox or you are not.  If a group with no canonical backing suddenly shows up and declares that it is Orthodox, it must be able to prove this. As you cannot, you are not Orthodox.  It's very simple.  I'm sorry if that offends you. But, it's the truth.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Hmmmmm... So, when you run out of arguments you just resort to hearsay and rumours.

Reader Nikolai

As long as any Orthodox Church here in America follows the ruder. Be it OCA and so on, they are are Orthodox with or with out canonical backing, being in Scoba or not being in scoba.ÂÂ  Even if they are not recongnized by main stream Churches. and as I have said By what right and under who's authority gives you the right to say who is not Orthodox. the only one I see that is not orthodox is the Roman Catholic Church. and Old Roman Catholic Church. As for here say and rumors. I don'tÂÂ  do hear sayÂÂ  or rumors, What I have said is not here say or rumors. every thing IÂÂ  say comes from websites. Not by the jurisdiction that you say are not Orthodox But by yours and the main stream Orthodox Churches and their websitesÂÂ  




It has at least attempted to unite American Orthodoxy.  Even though it hasn't succeded, that does not make them worthless.

There are better things to spend ones time doing.


Reader Nikolai

the only person that I'll give credit to is Metropolitan Iakovos for efford to have one American Orthodox Church. but was forced in to retirement, by the Patriarch of Constantinople. This is not hear say or rumor
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« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2006, 06:33:44 PM »

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the only person that I'll give credit to is Metropolitan Iakovos for efford to have one American Orthodox Church.

And it can be said with certainty that your jurisdiction would not have been in the one American Orthodox Church...
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« Reply #126 on: June 11, 2006, 07:10:02 PM »

Yes, I was going to say that Archbishop Iakovos didn't recognise as Orthodox or concelebrate with any of the little churches that produced Mr Hood's church. Walter Propheta, for example, wasn't invited to join SCOBA. ROCOR was.
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« Reply #127 on: June 11, 2006, 07:34:03 PM »

Fr Andrew,

If you want Orthodox unity, you are only one step away: join a recognized Orthodox Church.  There's no reason for you to be separate.  You have the power to make Orthodox unity one step closer.

Anastasios
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« Reply #128 on: June 11, 2006, 08:19:42 PM »

Yes, I was going to say that Archbishop Iakovos didn't recognise as Orthodox or concelebrate with any of the little churches that produced Mr Hood's church. Walter Propheta, for example, wasn't invited to join SCOBA. ROCOR was.

As I have said. This Jurisdiction came out from the Russia Orthodox Church, and not one can say other wise. Not even Rocor



Walter Propheta, for example, wasn't invited to join SCOBA

is that by your hear say or some one else hear say


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« Reply #129 on: June 11, 2006, 08:27:26 PM »

I thought you didn't care what we or SCOBA thought of you, Mr Hood. So why do you keep posting? Why do you need us to 'validate' your pose? Shouldn't you be ministering to people or something?

By the time SCOBA started, the little groups that started your church were already at least two removes from the Russian Orthodox Church. As we've repeatedly told you, 'lines of succession' outside the Orthodox communion are meaningless to that communion. So those groups, including Propheta's, never were asked to join SCOBA.

Haven't we fed this guy's need for attention long enough?
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« Reply #130 on: June 11, 2006, 08:31:08 PM »

The reason I didn't mention Moscow's Patriarchal Parishes in the US (I think that's their formal name) is because they are in SCOBA by proxy, represented by the OCA.
Actually, the Moscow Patriarchate still has parishes in the U.S. that were never transferred to the OCA.  How does the OCA represent these MP parishes in SCOBA?  (Man, it seems we Orthodox love acronyms just as much as the U.S. government!  Roll Eyes)
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« Reply #131 on: June 11, 2006, 08:41:25 PM »

Quote
(Man, it seems we Orthodox love acronyms just as much as the U.S. government!  )

...Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P.... 

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« Reply #132 on: June 11, 2006, 08:53:21 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123927#msg123927 date=1150072885]
...Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P.... 


[/quote]
L.O.L.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #133 on: June 11, 2006, 09:30:19 PM »


He obviously wants to be 'validated' (ha ha) in his pose as a priest.


I am Valid and no matter what you any one else says



This guy obviously has no theology or real education, just a bunch of 'B.S.' he picked up from somewhere (probably some harebrained correspondence-course 'seminary') about having 'canonical lines' and obsesses about, and no actual ministry, and then barges in here demanding to be respected like a real priest...


I didn't come here to seek any ones repect or make demands. Plus I am not a showboater either.

I came here to make  comments on what I have read. what I have been told and seen.

As for our seminary.it may not have been a Big seminary as like Saint Tikons. but at least our Bishops did the best they could do


Kindly p*ss off, Mr Hood.


No
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« Reply #134 on: June 11, 2006, 10:01:56 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123909#msg123909 date=1150065224]
And it can be said with certainty that your jurisdiction would not have been in the one American Orthodox Church...
[/quote]ÂÂ  
Once again you have missed the point. Iakovos wanted to bring (ALL) Orthodox Churches even the ones that are not recongnized or may not have perfect canonical lines together, as one American Orthodox Church. where there is no Greek Orthodox Church ,no syrian orthodox church,or Ukrainian Orthodox and so on. But under One Metropolitan or Patriarch if one can ever be appointed. but their are alot of lay people that don't want to see one American Orthodox church. becuse all the ethnics say that they'll loose their ethnic back ground and their ethnic festival. Plus they also don't want to see a Greek or Russian Bishop and so on to be head of that Church,  They would rather see a Bishop who doesn't have a foreign back ground but have a true amercain background
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« Reply #135 on: June 11, 2006, 10:06:04 PM »

Actually, the Moscow Patriarchate still has parishes in the U.S. that were never transferred to the OCA.  How does the OCA represent these MP parishes in SCOBA?  (Man, it seems we Orthodox love acronyms just as much as the U.S. government!  Roll Eyes)

Yes, I know that. That they are represented by proxy by the OCA in SCOBA is part of the agreement that turned the old Russian metropolia into the OCA in 1970. The Patriarchal Parishes were left over from a 1940s attempted takeover of the metropolia's parishes by the Soviets and there were still hard feelings. So when ecclesiastical détente happened around 1970 between the Moscow Patriarchate and the metropolia, when the patriarchate granted the metropolia its independence, a few things were agreed upon:

• The Patriarchial Parishes were listed by name in the document creating the OCA, which says they are to be left as they were, under Moscow, not forced to join the OCA.
• Moscow promised not to start more Patriarchal Parishes — it is not competing with the OCA.
• The Patriarchal Parishes technically aren't a diocese but an exarchate - again, no overlap with the OCA. The MP bishop in the US isn't a territorial one (diocesan, eparch) but an exarch.
• In SCOBA the Patriarchal Parishes are represented by the MP's designated successor in the US, the OCA.
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« Reply #136 on: June 11, 2006, 10:14:36 PM »

 
Once again you have missed the point. Iakovos wanted to bring (ALL) Orthodox Churches even the ones that are not recongnized or may not have perfect canonical lines together, as one American Orthodox Church. where there is no Grrek Orthodox Church ,no syrian orthodox church,or Ukrainian Orthodox and so on. But under One Metropolitan or Patriarch if one can ever be appointed

He wanted groups like yours to join the actual Orthodox communion - not specifically his Greek part of it or a Russian part, etc. He didn't accept such groups as Orthodox as they were, the claim you seem to be trying to make. That makes no sense according to Orthodox theology.
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« Reply #137 on: June 11, 2006, 10:50:27 PM »

Quote
Iakovos wanted to bring (ALL) Orthodox Churches even the ones that are not recongnized or may not have perfect canonical lines together, as one American Orthodox Church.

Then what is stopping you from joining the OCA or GOA then? 
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« Reply #138 on: June 11, 2006, 11:18:57 PM »

hmmmm. I believe everyone here was giving very straight answers.ÂÂ  You just don't agree with them.

no they haven't .like this post that you answered.
 all I get is hear says from them.
I aked one question that was not answer by them, that question was by what right do they who is not Orthodox andÂÂ  by who's Authority
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« Reply #139 on: June 11, 2006, 11:37:38 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123937#msg123937 date=1150080627]
Then what is stopping you from joining the OCA or GOA then?ÂÂ  
[/quote]

I don't care to be with the OCA.or  The GOA or ROCOR
if I had my choice I would go under the ROAC (Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church) who has some Churchs here in America as well as a few Monastaries. I have a friend who use to be with the GOA who is now under the ROAC. and if I do decide to come under them. may be I can ask the Metropolitan to take over the true American orthodox Church where Aftimios left off. but this is only wishful thinking. But  I do have papers coming to me from ROAC
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« Reply #140 on: June 12, 2006, 12:00:33 AM »

He wanted groups like yours to join the actual Orthodox communion - not specifically his Greek part of it or a Russian part, etc. He didn't accept such groups as Orthodox as they were, the claim you seem to be trying to make. That makes no sense according to Orthodox theology.


You must be one of the stupidest people here.  all you have managed to do is trun everything I have saide a round.
I didnt say that Iakovos recognized such groups. I said he wanted to bring every one from Greek to Russian and so on and those who
may not have perfect canonical  lines  He wanted to bring (ALL) Jurisdictions and I do mean All Orthodox Jurisdiction. under on roof.
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« Reply #141 on: June 12, 2006, 12:12:36 AM »

The reason I didn't mention Moscow's Patriarchal Parishes in the US (I think that's their formal name) is because they are in SCOBA by proxy, represented by the OCA.

No, there formal name is  the  Russian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #142 on: June 12, 2006, 12:21:30 AM »



You must be one of the stupidest people here.  all you have managed to do is trun everything I have saide a round.
I didnt say that Iakovos recognized such groups. I said he wanted to bring every one from Greek to Russian and so on and those who
may not have perfect canonical  lines  He wanted to bring (ALL) Jurisdictions and I do mean All Orthodox Jurisdiction. under on roof.

I agree Paul Andrew, ROAC seems just right for you. If I may say so, I suggest you may want to make the bold step of contacting Gregory of Denver- leader of the true Church. You two would get along swimmingly. Maybe the two of you could combine your individual delusions to create one uber-illusion that could provide a stronghold for a new Moronic Orthodox Church. If you don't care for that name there are plenty more I could suggest.
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« Reply #143 on: June 12, 2006, 12:29:20 AM »

Did we ever establish a name and location for Paul Andrew's parish? Does his bishop have a name?
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« Reply #144 on: June 12, 2006, 12:56:03 AM »

That's just it, I see that canonical tradition comes before charity and hospitality.

Unless we have love brothers,ÂÂ  all the truth in our canons is nothing but a noisy gong.

 2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;

7  (Charity) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, (unity?),  ÃƒÆ’‚ endureth all things. (our ignorance, with a mind to educating and bringing us in?)

8 Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. (canons as well)

9 For we know in part... 10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.ÂÂ  (canons as well)

13 And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.



I agree with you 100%
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« Reply #145 on: June 12, 2006, 01:31:16 AM »

I agree Paul Andrew, ROAC seems just right for you. If I may say so, I suggest you may want to make the bold step of contacting Gregory of Denver- leader of the true Church. You two would get along swimmingly. Maybe the two of you could combine your individual delusions to create one uber-illusion that could provide a stronghold for a new Moronic Orthodox Church. If you don't care for that name there are plenty more I could suggest.

I think you got your hat to tight for your head. As for this Gregory, person I have no clue who this person is. The ROAC is Under Metropolitan Valentine of Suzdal and Vladimir. in Russia. there are two homepages one is old with no links and a new one with links. As for the Archbishop Gregory he is listed in the old homepage, but is not listed in the new homepage of the ROAC. This jurisdition may had at one time been with ROCOR, but now it is it's own jurisdiction. so at this time I do not know who is his exarch is in the country. But I can easily as my Friend in New Jersey who is an Archimdrite.
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« Reply #146 on: June 12, 2006, 01:57:55 AM »

Did we ever establish a name and location for Paul Andrew's parish? Does his bishop have a name?


yes I did you have to go back a few postings to see my answer. but i'll redo it for you.

Parish is named Saint Vladimir's. it is in Hunlonck Creek Pa. Under Met.Thaddeus Condrick. The parish Sites empty because our parishners. have sinced moved, since the Goverment bought their house that were flood out. so right now it is not an active Parish and since my parish as not meony to move to a new location to build a new church else where. for me I am on leave from my jurisdiction. I live in California where I was born. to help my parents out, I lost my Mother back in November 5th 2005,
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« Reply #147 on: June 12, 2006, 02:52:45 AM »

As has been said, canonical tradition lets us know where a starting point is.ÂÂ  We very much disagree with you regarding who is canonically Orthodox.ÂÂ  Some have stated this more bluntly than others.ÂÂ  Would you be willing, ma'am, to concede that simply because I think that neither you nor the poster going by the name of "Fr. Paul Andrew" are not, in fact, Orthodox--that this does not automatically make me uncharitable and unhospitable?ÂÂ  It only means, imo, that I disagree with you and him.ÂÂ  Yet FPA says that merely disagreeing with his stance makes us Pharisees and unChristian and mean and whatever else.ÂÂ  

This is true.ÂÂ  Yet without all the truth in our canons, our love is just an unfocused, pointless sentiment.

We definitely hope for unity, but we will not do so at the expense of truth.ÂÂ  If we admitted your group or FPA's group to SCOBA communion, we basically would give a green light to all the doctrines we disagree on still.ÂÂ  Are you aware, ma'am, that SCOBA (as well as the rest of the institutional, mainline Orthodox Church worldwide) believes that they alone constitute the Church, and considers this a fundamental doctrine of what it means to be Orthodox?ÂÂ  If you admit that you need to be educated and brought in, would you truly be willing to reconcile to this and work towards what's been called "true ecumenism" by many Orthodox: that is, the universal conversion of all men to the Orthodox faith?

Yes...were we perfect and not sinners, we wouldn't need the canons, or icons, or the Eucharist, or even the Bible for that matter.ÂÂ  But we do need them, and until they pass away at the full revelation of Christ, there they stand, helping to guide the Church.

I hope this has been charitable, yet firm.

Pedro I agree with you some what. some of you have said that I am not Orthodox. Define Orthodox. according to the Seven Ecumenical Conncils. I follow everything that is canonical according to the Ruder. I'll listen to you since you make since. these others use the canon laws like the Protestants use the bible.ÂÂ  I tried to be civil but I do loose my temper.ÂÂ  I have also asked some of these guys by who's authorityÂÂ  thats gives them or any one to say who is not orthodox.. I came from a baptist back ground. like some people
I went from one church to another. I didn't know anything about the Orthodox Church. there is a Greek Orthodox Church about a mile and a half from me I always thought it was a nother part of the Roman catholic Church. As i didn't like the roman Catholic Church. Christ himself brought me in to the Orthodox church. It may not have been a large Orthodox jurisdiction.ÂÂ  but I went where the Lord wanted me to be. I had my studies in a seminary way but books that were given to me for reading and studing. It may not have been a large seminary.but my Jourisdiction did the best it could under the circumstances that it didn't have the money to bulid a large seminary and  to hire teachers.
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« Reply #148 on: June 12, 2006, 03:44:25 AM »

This should have been prefaced with 'Warning:extreme irony ahead'.

Love is patient, love is kind...

It doesn't barge into a forum bragging about titles one didn't earn.

It isn't puffed up indeed.

When nicely told the truth it doesn't come back with 'I just don't see the love of Jesus anywhere in you', 'I don't care what you say', 'you make me sick', etc. etc.

You're nicer than the other one - you admitted you aren't in a canonical church, that you don't know that much about Orthodoxy and asked questions.

Now you're dragging yourself down to Mr Hood's level.

Tell you what: I'll recognise you lot as Orthodox priests and nuns if you accept my claim of valid succession from His Highness Norton I, Emperor of the United States (a real person who lived in San Francisco), as King of the World and pay taxes to me. I can even throw up a website listing my 'lines' and post on message boards berating anybody who doesn't accept my God-given right to rule... those big meanies!ÂÂ  Tongue

Your a fool. you act like the pharisees in Christ's time as well as after his time.  I didn't ask any one to agree with me.or to recognize me as a Priest or my jurisdiction. when I first posted I gave my reason to coming in to this forum. I said that I have seen and read a lot forums that have said to others your not Orthodox or not canonical, your Bishops where excommunicated, the way I see it that is hatred. That is why in some of my postings I have said BY WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY WHO IS NOT ORTHODOX AND BY WHO'S AUTHORITY
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« Reply #149 on: June 12, 2006, 05:44:44 AM »

Quote
BY WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY WHO IS NOT ORTHODOX AND BY WHO'S AUTHORITY

Keep in mind that your ROAC buddies think the vast majority of the Orthodox Church (basicly everyone except their TINY inner circle) is a "graceless heretic".  Kind of ironic that you'd be drawn to such a group...
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« Reply #150 on: June 12, 2006, 08:25:33 AM »

Okay, I've been keeping up with this blog for too long now and in my opinion it has turned into a p--sing match. There is no edification or uplifting going on here just mindless wranglings.

Father PA. Here's the reply I think you want from youngfogey or any of us.

"Yes, yes, yes, you are Orthodox and we love and accept you dear brother. We're so sorry for not recognizing and respecting you and your congregation, please forgive us."

THIS AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

Youngfogey. Here's the reply I think you want from Mr. Hood.

"Yes, yes, yes, you are right and I am wrong. I am not Orthodox, just a poser and wannabe. Please forgive me. I am quitting tomorrow and am going to a true  Orthodox church to confess and repent."

THIS AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN EITHER.

Nobody here is going to convince anyone.This wrangling has turned into pure sport.  There are many serious inquirers who have logged on to this site. Let us spend our time with them If any of you have an Orthodox wall calendar read today's scripture Matt. 18:10-20.

ENOUGH!
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« Reply #151 on: June 12, 2006, 08:42:36 AM »

Amen!
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« Reply #152 on: June 12, 2006, 08:45:38 AM »

Okay, I've been keeping up with this blog for too long now and in my opinion it has turned into a p--sing match. There is no edification or uplifting going on here just mindless wranglings....

Youngfogey. Here's the reply I think you want from Mr. Hood.

"Yes, yes, yes, you are right and I am wrong. I am not Orthodox, just a poser and wannabe. Please forgive me. I am quitting tomorrow and am going to a true Orthodox church to confess and repent."

Sort of.

It's easy to get wrapped up in arguments like this and have ego get into it - sorry ’bout that - but which church Mr Hood goes to is nothing to do with me personally.

Like I said a while back it's obvious that he only wants attention and is unable or at least unwilling to listen to the people here. Not just me.

It's all just a disruption of this board. And also IMO the original topic of this thread doesn't belong in this folder as it's not about Orthodox-Roman Catholic dialogue at all!

The conversation about the Patriarchal Parishes in the USA and their relationship with the OCA was interesting though. It'd make a good little thread in another folder. Ecclesiologically they're a Cold War curiosity (allowed for pastoral reasons) like, ironically, ROCOR, and they serve the same niche group in the US: Russian immigrants, who culturally don't relate to the Americanised (and for the most part not Russian to begin with) OCA. (Before the recent détente and back when there was a USSR they competed of course.) Nice churches and both of course Orthodox but just another thing to untangle on the way to the goal of one bishop, one city of one Orthodox church for America. 'In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek', etc.

BTW, for the record I don't think Mr Hood publicly gave the name and town of his former, allegedly flooded-out and closed parish until just now. All I remember reading earlier was he had a church in a house that flooded and had to close.
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« Reply #153 on: June 12, 2006, 08:52:42 AM »

I know I agreed with "Enough!", but I never heard of nor can find "Hunlonck Creek, PA".
HuhHuhHuh
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« Reply #154 on: June 12, 2006, 09:08:58 AM »

I haven't done but try taking out one and then the other n and searching for it that way: it's probably Hunlock Creek.
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« Reply #155 on: June 12, 2006, 09:15:07 AM »

Thanks. Perhaps...THAT does exist...along with several Orthodox parishes in that region as I recall from my past trips over there (mostly OCA, maybe some ACROD).
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« Reply #156 on: June 12, 2006, 09:21:39 AM »

Well, it's interesting what a little Googling will turn up.

The AOCC appears in this list of "independent" churches-- three times. The first of these seems to be the one in question; the other two may be related, but it's hard to tell. But THIS also appears to be the homepage of the AOCC, as shown by this page. Only now we have a Metropolitan "Victor". What happened to Thaddeus Condrick? Well, acto Steve Tyminski, he had a serious lapse of judgement. (Disclaimer: I have no way of checking his allegations. Tyminski seems to have switched from AOCC to this group-- I think.)

Just to confound matters further there are two other AOCCs-- American Old Catholic Church. Neither of these seems to have any tangible link to the real Old Catholics of Utrecht.

Hardly anyone here believes that my church is part of the true church. But at least it's easy enough to figure out where it comes from. Here we have I'm not sure exactly how many churches competing to be the same obscure organization, whose ties to any unquestionably real church are hardly clear. Surely, sir, you should understand that your status is not beyond doubt.
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« Reply #157 on: June 12, 2006, 09:26:06 AM »

To be fair, Keble, Fr Paul did mention the existence of these two groups in one of his early posts and made an attempt to explain what was going on. So it's not like he was trying to hide it.

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« Reply #158 on: June 12, 2006, 09:37:13 AM »

Right, he's vehemently against THEOCACNA.

The vagante follies continue.

Had a look at Tyminski's blog.

Screams 'gay ex-RC fuming at his old church' to me.

Which is what many/most of these fly-by-night clergy and churches are really about.

Nope, nothing to do with Utrecht, which has problems of its own (they ordain women and are considering gay weddings) but is a real denomination with born members (and no churches anymore in the US - they're a Middle European thing).
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« Reply #159 on: June 12, 2006, 09:40:29 AM »

Quote
The AOCC appears in this list of "independent" churches-- three times.

LOL My parish recently had issues with one of these independent churches: "The Ancient Apostolic Communion" (formerly known as "The Coptic Orthodox Catholic Church"), a church founded upon a defrocked bishop who elevated himself to patriarch and consecrated his own Bishops.

What is with these people? They're a bunch of weirdos I tell ya. Apparently their heirarchs are ALWAYS on the net attempting to argue their validity. The Patriarch of the TAAC found his way to a Coptic forum a while ago; he was attempting to argue the validity of his church in addition to certain innovations undertaken by his church such as women's ordination. He also had a personal blog which, for an entire week, happened to revolve around myself. I was flattered.
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« Reply #160 on: June 12, 2006, 10:34:16 AM »

To be fair, Keble, Fr Paul did mention the existence of these two groups in one of his early posts and made an attempt to explain what was going on. So it's not like he was trying to hide it.

It's not the possible duplicity that concerned me, but the mere fact that it's difficult for anyone to tell who these groups are, and which has a claim to legitimacy. Even with ROAC the origin and membership of the body is reasonably clear (modulo the confusion thrown in by the deposed Gregory). For all the scattershot approach that Tikhon took to the survival of the Russian church, there is some possibility of establishing a link. Here it seems difficult to establish any linkages.
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« Reply #161 on: June 12, 2006, 10:44:19 AM »

From what I can tell from OrthodoxWiki, linked in this thread earlier, the claim is that the church headed by Aftimios, started by the Russian metropolia in that 'scattershot' approach you mentioned, continues as this little church. And it seems this church didn't appear until around the 1990s, claiming the 'mantle' of Aftimios.

Again (and again in peace) there's a problem, nothing to do with whether that link exists.

Even if it does, it means bubkes to the Orthodox because Aftimios and the fellows he consecrated left the Orthodox communion. As Anastasios said, a monk getting married (which Aftimios did) excommunicates himself.
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« Reply #162 on: June 12, 2006, 11:44:03 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123927#msg123927 date=1150072885]
...Seeing as how the V.P. is such a V.I.P., shouldn't we keep the P.C. on the Q.T.? 'Cause if it leaks to the V.C. he could end up M.I.A., and then we'd all be put out in K.P....ÂÂ  


[/quote]

You sound like this manager who sits near me. Roll Eyes  I HATE overuse of acronymns that the user haphazardly assumes that people around him/her understand what they mean.
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« Reply #163 on: June 12, 2006, 12:18:07 PM »

It's as annoying as sports metaphors. A business book I browsed once faulted Americans for that — imagine if a Spaniard went on about pasos dobles and used other bullfighting allusions at an international meeting or presentation.
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« Reply #164 on: June 12, 2006, 12:49:16 PM »

yes I did you have to go back a few postings to see my answer. but i'll redo it for you.

Parish is named Saint Vladimir's. it is in Hunlock Creek Pa. Under Met.Thaddeus Condrick. The parish Sites empty because our parishners. have sinced moved, since the Goverment bought their house that were flood out. so right now it is not an active Parish and since my parish as no money to move to a new location to build a new church else where. for me I am on leave from my jurisdiction. I live in California where I was born. to help my parents out, I lost my Mother back in November 5th 2005,

I notice some mistakes I have made and didn't see them, I made the correction.
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« Reply #165 on: June 12, 2006, 01:01:00 PM »

I'm probably going to regret this but let's try again.

• How many people belonged to St Vladimir's in Hunlock Creek, Pa.?
• What was the average Sunday attendance?
• What were the backgrounds of the members - how many were born members of the denomination?
• What year was it started/how long did it last?
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« Reply #166 on: June 12, 2006, 01:07:24 PM »

Well, it's interesting what a little Googling will turn up.

The AOCC appears in this list of "independent" churches-- three times. The first of these seems to be the one in question; the other two may be related, but it's hard to tell. But THIS also appears to be the homepage of the AOCC, as shown by this page. Only now we have a Metropolitan "Victor". What happened to Thaddeus Condrick? Well, acto Steve Tyminski, he had a serious lapse of judgement. (Disclaimer: I have no way of checking his allegations. Tyminski seems to have switched from AOCC to this group-- I think.)

Just to confound matters further there are two other AOCCs-- American Old Catholic Church. Neither of these seems to have any tangible link to the real Old Catholics of Utrecht.

Hardly anyone here believes that my church is part of the true church. But at least it's easy enough to figure out where it comes from. Here we have I'm not sure exactly how many churches competing to be the same obscure organization, whose ties to any unquestionably real church are hardly clear. Surely, sir, you should understand that your status is not beyond doubt.


I know one Mr. Steve tyminski  he is not worth any thing even as a Priest. he doesn't listen to his Bishops he a trouble maker he does what he wants to do. not what his bishops asked him to do
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« Reply #167 on: June 12, 2006, 02:39:38 PM »

On one level-- and an important one-- I don't make much of distinction between you and Tyminski. But the point of interest is whether his report is true.
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« Reply #168 on: June 12, 2006, 02:54:53 PM »

Here lay the problem Father Paul Andrew. If an orthodox Christian happened to be in PA and walked into your church to worship. (Thinking It was an orthodox church) Would he be allowed communion? Or would you try and convert them on the spot? Communion is bond witch our church take seriously. Many souls have bin lost due to churches such as yours. Everybody is trying to reinvent the wheel instead of using it for what it is. Lay up your hands and repent. Your churches foundation is not set on solid ground.
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« Reply #169 on: June 12, 2006, 03:01:03 PM »

If it is of any comfort to you, please know that I shall be praying for you as I assist near the altar in a few hours.

Thank you, that is very comforting.

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« Reply #170 on: June 12, 2006, 03:15:34 PM »

He'd commune the Orthodox visitor and probably not tell the visitor that he (Mr Hood) and his church aren't really Orthodox/aren't really in communion with the visitor's church.

But I have a feeling that the visitor could tell from the externals that it wasn't really one of his anyway.
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« Reply #171 on: June 12, 2006, 03:15:45 PM »

I'm probably going to regret this but let's try again.

• How many people belonged to St Vladimir's in Hunlock Creek, Pa.?
• What was the average Sunday attendance?
• What were the backgrounds of the members - how many were born members of the denomination?
• What year was it started/how long did it last?

1. 0
2. 15
3. Orthodox and converts- none
4. first it started out in new jersey. don't know when. I believe some time in the latter part of 1970's
moved to hunlock Pa. this all started way be fore I went to Pa. Church and house started as a monastary. ended late 80s
Church remained opend. until 1996 flooded out by heave snow and rain. reopened 1997, church has at least 10 people.
as it stand now one family 2005 .church and house flood out twice three months apart. no parishners all have moved out of area. Bought out my US goverment.

at this time I really don't know if jurisdiction will continue. since there is no money coming in.
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« Reply #172 on: June 12, 2006, 03:25:01 PM »

Thank you.

By 'Orthodox' do you mean these 15 people, who never officially joined the parish but came on Sundays, joined your denomination? Or were they members of canonical Orthodox churches who went to your church instead?
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« Reply #173 on: June 12, 2006, 04:50:45 PM »

OK At least were talking civil and communicating.
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« Reply #174 on: June 12, 2006, 05:52:13 PM »

Here lay the problem Father Paul Andrew. If an orthodox Christian happened to be in PA and walked into your church to worship. (Thinking It was an orthodox church) Would he be allowed communion? Or would you try and convert them on the spot? Communion is bond witch our church take seriously. Many souls have bin lost due to churches such as yours. Everybody is trying to reinvent the wheel instead of using it for what it is. Lay up your hands and repent. Your churches foundation is not set on solid ground.


First Answer--- First of all I won't covert an Orthodox Christian who is alredy Orthodox.
Two answer--- we have had visitors from other Orthodox Jurdiction, IE OCA GOA UOC. ROCOR.
Third answer-- Yes we would. since we do follow the rudder. Plus we don't deny any one from receiving communion who is orthdoox Christian----
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« Reply #175 on: June 12, 2006, 06:40:55 PM »

Quote
Third answer-- Yes we would. since we do follow the rudder. Plus we don't deny any one from receiving communion who is orthdoox Christian----

Which demands, WHO IS ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN? 

If I wake up tomorrow as Nektarios, Patriarch of Phoenix and all other regions that are hot as hell right now, and revieve converts into my new founded "Orthodox" Church - are they Orthodox, simply because they call themselves Orthodox?
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« Reply #176 on: June 12, 2006, 07:03:40 PM »

If it is of any comfort to you, please know that I shall be praying for you as I assist near the altar in a few hours.

We celebrated Pentacost yesterday too, offering the Liturgy for the Forum and God's perfect will for unity,  and I'm sure it brought great joy to His Heart to see  His children earnestly pleading for one another.

In His Love and Mercy,

Mother Anastasia
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« Reply #177 on: June 12, 2006, 07:23:39 PM »

In all humility, please consider the following thoughts: Christianity is all about relationships, both of the person with Christ, and of the person with other people, ...

So, the reason a sudden change can occur as you point out isn't just a paperwork issue, but what it reveals is that the relationship between the person and the Church has been corrected and renewed through the Holy Spirit as revealed through the Mysteries of the Church. That is how things can change--because now it is known that the Spirit has moved among them, instead of merely suspected or hoped for: the correction of the person's relationship to the Church has changed. This is the nature of Pentecost, which many of us will be celebrating this morning: the sudden arrival of the Spirit to form the Church changed the world in that moment, while to many others nothing visible changed other than some people wandered into the street to speak in languages they understood.

As I understand it, Cornelius was acceptable in God's sight before that was communicated to Peter, and acknowledged to the church at large. 

Please do not get me wrong, I am not against authority or structure.  What I am against is man judging another man by his standards (canonical or otherwise)  when that soul may be in good standing with God.

I see salvation as a process.  What has been revealed to a soul by God today,  has also been accompanied by His grace to live out that new understanding.

What has not been revealed, the man cannot live out.   If a man has accepted Christ as his Head, and gives his life to bring food and medicines to the poor, for the love of God,  because in them he sees our Lord, is he not in affect the hands and feet of his head, Christ?  Should we not then admit him to the Lord's table if he is in understanding of the true nature of Christ's presence in the Eucharist?  Because by his actions, he had demonstrated that He knows the heart of the law, even as Cornelius, knew the heart  of the law.

If hypothetically, we were to remove all the traditions that have been layered upon Christianity since that day with Cornelius, would we not have a very simple basis for consensus and therefore communion?

I believe the Baptismal rite in Orthodoxy is beautiful and worthy to be adopted by all, but does not the Lord accept the same baptism that was administered to Cornelius and his family, even though we know better that one should be baptised in the name of the Holy Trinity?

I am not saying we should throw out tradition, I am saying that we need to go back to what Christ instituted as the absolute minimum for agreement.  If we refuse to do this, adding line upon line,  separate cooking pots for the meats  and the milk, are we not degenerating something God given into something made by man?




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« Reply #178 on: June 12, 2006, 08:06:36 PM »

Well, to be honest with you, we are interested in what you teach, because frankly not all of it is Orthodox, but I think you realize that now while perhaps earlier you did not.

What I meant when I said that nobody is asking us what we teach, was that nobody has asked us.  The focus  has been on jurisdiction.  Perhaps they looked at our web site and saw other things (not jurisdiction)  that were against the faith, but I have no way of knowing that, it was never presented to me.

I do know that our perspective of the canons is,  on the surface, not canonical.  But if we are being led by the Spirit of God to protest certain issues, what is said to be non-canonical today could be said to be canonical one hundred years from now.

We are not looking from our little corner of the globe in Taos, we are looking at the condition of the universal church, and she is in major need of reform, and what we are seeing, is that man has made an idol out of his own creation.

We talk about wealth, beauty and intellect as being idols of a society, that has put worldly pursuits before God and His kingdom, this is easily observed by the faithful.

But what is not so easily percieved by the faithful,  from the inside, are the man made laws and structures we have created that come first, before the Heart of God.  These have become stumbling blocks in the way of the Spirit of the Lord, and the fruit is before us, globally.   

Are we judging as man judges or as God judges? 

If Cornelius, was given baptism, should we include Mother Theresa?
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« Reply #179 on: June 12, 2006, 08:15:08 PM »

I have decide to put and end to all this you say I say. It is has become nothing but nonsince.  the only person I have to answer to is Jesus Christ. who will judge me on what I have done and what I haven't done. there is no one here to say who is right or who is wrong.Our Lord Jesus Christ is the only one who can say who is right or who is wrong. As long as I do what is right by the Seven Ecumenical Council to which  I have followed . when doing the Liturgy I use the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom. The liturgy of Saint Basil the Great and last the litury of the Presanctified Gifts. If I wasn't a trueOrthodox Christian. I would use what ever the Roman Catholic Church uses. or some liturgy that was not approved nt the Seven Councils. So I am not going to say who is right or who is wrong, that can go either way, by any ones definition.

So let there be peace  between us as orthodox Christians and Brother in Christ that we are.
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« Reply #180 on: June 12, 2006, 10:29:54 PM »

Quote
Church remained opend. until 1996 flooded out by heave snow and rain. reopened 1997, church has at least 10 people.
as it stand now one family 2005 .church and house flood out twice three months apart.

I would venture to say that god is trying to tell you something?

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« Reply #181 on: June 13, 2006, 03:18:30 AM »

I would venture to say that god is trying to tell you something?



with what you said. reminds me of that minister and his group going a round protesting at military funerals. say that God is punishing America because of Homosexuals. when Priest and ministers or lay people say God is trying to tell you some thing it show how much of a hypocrite they are. so you fit right in.

God doesn't do these things. all this flooding that happens around in this Country is the work of Satan himself.
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« Reply #182 on: June 13, 2006, 03:34:45 AM »

On one level-- and an important one-- I don't make much of distinction between you and Tyminski. But the point of interest is whether his report is true.


Keble quetion where what forum did you run in to tyminski. reason is that I have a few words to say to him
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« Reply #183 on: June 13, 2006, 05:51:21 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg124085#msg124085 date=1150152055]
Which demands, WHO IS ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN? 

If I wake up tomorrow as Nektarios, Patriarch of Phoenix and all other regions that are hot as hell right now, and receive converts into my new founded "Orthodox" Church - are they Orthodox, simply because they call themselves Orthodox? [/quote]

Exactly. As this board has tried to explain with considerable patience and charity to these two 'independent-church' clergy, being Orthodox means not only beliefs, practices and a claim to apostolic succession but being in the Orthodox communion.

Simply adopting all but the last — 'I don't care what anybody else says; I follow the councils, The Rudder, etc.' — and setting up shop on your own is like how Baptists operate, not Orthodox. In other words you're treating those Orthodox things exactly the way groups like the Baptists treat the Bible — outside the context of the church, which is utterly foreign to Orthodoxy.

Mother Anastasia's church is obviously the creation of Franciscan-influenced charismatic Roman Catholics who wanted to run after their own flights of fancy, whatever they are, rather than obey their church (St Francis was big on that last part BTW).

Like many Westerners they were ignorant of what Orthodoxy really is and had this vague notion that it's an umbrella term for being vaguely high-churchy but not under Rome.

The AOCC is more of the same.

As are the gays in America who opened an iconostasis-less church, put a Russian cross on the sign and dedicated the church to 'St' Mychal Judge. They claim 'valid lines of succession' too.

'It's a free country.' Logically you, MA, could decide to obey your old church and go back, since you want to have in church so much that is RC, or you could be honest, as you have set out to do since learning about Orthodoxy here, and simply be an independent church mixing practices — like having married nuns and lady deacons — and devotions that you like.

But now you know not to call yourselves Orthodox.
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« Reply #184 on: June 13, 2006, 07:52:48 AM »

OK - The discussions have taken an interesting twist. I hope that  all you out there reading this that are new to Orthodoxy can see that not everyone who blogs on this site is truly Orthodox and that is why you and I need to be attending a church and in contact with a spiritual father, most likely your priest or a respected monastic or even a spiritual mother.
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« Reply #185 on: June 13, 2006, 09:15:13 AM »

My guess is neither independent-church cleric here knew much if anything about Orthodoxy and both were ordained by men who said they were Orthodox but of course weren't - maybe they thought they were (the blind leading the blind!).
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« Reply #186 on: June 13, 2006, 10:18:58 AM »

  The bottom line is what would keep one of your parishioners from opening his own church? Assuming he didn't like your practice of the orthodox/catholic faith. There is no end to it. The church would than take a different meaning and over the years would dissolve from true Christianity. The good book clearly states to look back to the past for our salvation. Sorry for being so hard on you but I have seen many fall victim to unsanctioned Churches. Especially people in a weak state of mind.
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« Reply #187 on: June 13, 2006, 09:18:13 PM »

Keble quetion where what forum did you run in to tyminski. reason is that I have a few words to say to him

As I said-- I used Google.
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« Reply #188 on: July 11, 2006, 09:54:09 AM »

http://www.forministry.com/USNYAMOCCTNOCC

Mr. Pultorak--

It is simply unacceptable to post just a link without any description regarding the nature of the site, or even how it applies towards the discussion at hand.

Therefore, I shall copy and paste a page of this site so that others can see what your vagante group is attempting to do:


Quote
"Orthodox Catholic?" Are not these two expressions of the Body of Christ completely separate and even contradictory to one another? Sadly, this is a quite common misconception, although the basis for the question is quite relevent. To answer this, however, in a certain sense yes ... they are separate; divided mainly by liturgy and certain other practices. But they are far from contradictory to one another. That is where the misconception enters in. From the time the Church was given her structure and a set format for worship; she has considered herself both Orthodox in doctrine, faith and Praxis; and Catholic in her ministerial outreach to the People of God. Even among the Holy Fathers gathered at the first Seven Ecumenical Councils convened from the Fourth to the Eighth Centuries there was no differentiation; this evidenced in their Canons and Teachings. Subsequent to the Great Schism of 1054, when the Church of Rome and the Eastern and Oriental Communions separated; the core meaning of Orthodox remained unchanged, while the application of the term "catholic" came to be seen as much more exclusive to the Church of Rome. Previous to the Schism, there was but one Church with several Patriarchates. As a beginning then; and for the purposes of this reflection, the two terms ORTHODOX and CATHOLIC will be briefly discusses individually; giving them the originality of their definitions; then bringing them together in the wholeness of their expression of faith and worship. When one hears mention of ORTHODOX; the initial image coming to mind is that of the Eastern and Oriental branches of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. While this is indeed a true and valid picture; it has a much more braod meaning ... true faith, worship and praise. Within those ethnic Orthodox Communities, also, are retained and faithfully preserved a vast and sacred wealth of Tradition and Praxis dating from Apostolic times. These have contrivuted greatly to and have sanctified the wider experience of Church. The term CATHOLIC, again and in its most popular usage, is seen as referring to the Church of Rome; rather than in its fullest intended connotation as a universal and all encompassing belief and missionary endeavor. In this light it is well, also, to state once more that the terms ORTHODOX and CATHOLIC have been used, in their original context, by the Eastern and Oriental Churches through century upon century, even to this day. A question which may invariably arise, in reference to attempts at renewing and rejuventaing the Orthodox Catholic Church as brought particularly to the American spiritual consciousness, pertains to what possible relevence it might hold for these times. Would it not be far easier and far more beneficial to the Church to view them simply as beautiful but irrelevent practices? In answering the above it must be remembered that what has come before has a great and a lasting impact upon the present and the future. In terms of the Body of Christ it is of a necessity to embrace the past, impliment this in present reality, and integrate it into the future. The Traditions and Praxis spoken of are the very foundations on which the Church was built. They are what have survived by the grace of Almighty God, through era upon era; through persecution and reformation. To deny them; to cease their celebration and use, and see them only as archaic notions is also to deny the very beginnings of our Christian Church. The purpose of the Apostolic Church was and is to unite all persons, according to Jesus' Divine Commission, under the mantle of a universal and all encompassing Church. The inclusion of all Baptized and Chrismated persons into Christ and who seek him is the character of what is entailed in being truly catholic. Gifting them, by word and witnessm with a thoroughly uncompromised and unaltered Faith, Praxis and Tradition is what it means to be truly Orthodox.
 

To all readers---

No, I have not adjusted this quoted page in any way. The page was written without separate paragraphs with words apparently randomly capitalized.

Other pages have better punctuation, yet are full of the arguments that we have read from members of the AOCC: this vagante group, which is not in communion with either the West or the Orthodox Church, claims to offer a method of achieving unity among the East and West.

-chris
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 12:15:43 PM by chris » Logged
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« Reply #189 on: July 11, 2006, 11:30:59 AM »

Mr Pultorak, I thought you were never posting here again because this forum is a bunch of big meanies.

Nice website. But where is the list of parishes with addresses? Service times? Like I said elsewhere, I can give you respect if you are in fact a pastor doing real work with people, even if I don't agree with your church. You'd get that respect even if you canonised Walter Propheta and wrote your very own rite. But if you call yourself something you're not, like 'Eastern Orthodox' or 'Western Orthodox' (they're Antiochian or ROCOR, end of story), you forfeit that.

What brings you back here?

Not that I care much but is Mr Tyminski one of your priests? Last time I checked he seemed to be doing some free-lance gay thing and largely copying RC practices.
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