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Bishop Paul Andrew
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« on: June 04, 2006, 03:27:21 AM »

Hi I am Father Paul Andrew and I greet every one with  Orthodox Christian Peace and Love
    
  Reason I am here is to say some things about Orthodoxy in America. I have been to very websites like this one where people talk and make comments on different subject. Two of these subject that I am going to talk about is hatred in the Orthodox Church and the old subject concerning The First Orthodox Church in America, know as the American Orthodox catholic Church headed by one Aftimios Ofiesh in Blessed Memory.

Ever since the beginning of this new Jurisdiction many clergy from other Orthodox Jurisdictions have tried to make the American Orthodox Catholic Church disappear.Yes this Jurisdiction has not grown to be a major Orthodox Church, but it has and still remains as an Orthodox jurisdiction today.  Other Orthodox Jurisdiction look at this Orthodox Church as  big thorn in it's side. From the Main Stream Orthodox Jurisdiction as well as the OCA and the Russian Orthodox Church abroad. All these Orthodox Jurisdiction have shown nothing but hatred to this Orthodox Jurisdiction.

By what I mean by hatred is that the Main stream Jurisdiction and the OCA and the Russian Orthodox Church abroad
have not shown one bit of friendly Christian act. There may be a handful of Good Orthodox Christians, But I am talking about The Bishops and the Clergy of these Jurisdiction.  They say that the American Orthodox catholic Church is non-canonical and that it Bishops and Clergy have no valid canonical lines. The American Orthodox Catholic Church has canonical line that come from The Russian Orthodox Church, The Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria. The Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church of Athens.The Syrian Orthodox Church. and The Albanian Orthodox Church and the Ukrainian  Orthodox Church.These are true and Valid and Canonical Orthodox Lines and still hold the line from the past and today.

 Now comes the Canon Law that the Other Orthodox Jurisdiction Do Break,  that if you are not in-communion with them you can not receive communion. But unlike the other jurisdiction we do give communion to other clergy from other Jurisdiction as we are a full Canonical Orthodox Church. One comment I do want to say is that if Jesus Christ who is the high Priest of the Church was on earth today and came in to your Church and asked to receive communion they would say now for you are not in-communion with us. see my point.

[Unverified personal claims against other Independent bishops removed]

There are two American orthodox Catholic Church Jurisdiction that do have Valid and canonical lines. one Jurisdiction in New York and One Jurisdiction in Pennsylvania. Both Jurisdiction are in the middle of reorganizing there jurisdiction and hopefully will come together so that they can grow together as on Orthodox Church.

One Last thing I'll say is that you don't have to belong to Scoba to be a Valid Orthodox Church, Plus Just because this Jurisdiction is not in-communion with the Main Stream Orthodox Churches Does not make this Jurisdiction Non-Canonical.

My Christ Our Lord Bless all our Jurisdicton
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2006, 03:35:44 AM »

One Last thing I'll say is that you don't have to belong to Scoba to be a Valid Orthodox Church,
True - the Jerusalem Patriarchate parishes in the US and ROCOR are perfectly fine.

Plus Just because this Jurisdiction is not in-communion with the Main Stream Orthodox Churches Does not make this Jurisdiction Non-Canonical.
Here's where you're wrong.  Who is your Bishop?  If no one recognizes him, then you're not Orthodox.  End of story.
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2006, 03:11:54 PM »

True - the Jerusalem Patriarchate parishes in the US and ROCOR are perfectly fine.

At Least you agree with me here

Here's where you're wrong.ÂÂ  Who is your Bishop?ÂÂ  If no one recognizes him, then you're not Orthodox.ÂÂ  End of story.

You say End of story. I don't think so. When some one says that my Jurisdiction and my Bishop and my Metropolitan and so on,  are not Orthodox thats where you are wrong my friend. Just because the OCA and others don't recognizes us doesn't mean we are not Orthodox. My Bishops have been in the Orthodox church as long as some of your bishops and I have been in the Orthodox just as long as some of you that are Priests. To say that one is not Orthodox shows me that you are not
Orthodox as well. Define who is Orthodox and who is not Orthodox, Because you have proved to me that you are not Orthodox
or even a good Orthodox Christian as well. To which I have said in my Posting that there is to much Hatred in the Orthodox Church. Only Christ Himself can say who is and who isn't Orthodox, a long with who is a good christian and who isn't a good christian.  Peace be with you

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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2006, 04:10:04 PM »

Quote
The Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church of Athens

I don't believe your Church had anything to do with Metropolitan Germanos of Demetrias, Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina, Archbishop Akakios of Athens, Archbishop Auxentios, or Archbishop Chrysostomos II, who, in that order, are the heads of the Greek Old Calendarist Church from the return of the three bishops to the Church Calendar in 1935 to the present.

Perhaps you mean Joachim Souris and his successor Timotheos, but these are just bishops who were consecrated from the same Ofiesh line that you claim and then who went to Greece as opportunists, and who set up separate altars against the Orthodox Church.

The problem with your claiming lineage from Ofiesh is that he was married and excommunicated when he consecrated those new bishops.  Excommunicated bishops--even if it was unjust (in his case, the political situation was unjust but his subsequent marriage was the clencher that ultimately got him excommunicated) cannot make new bishops.  By so doing, he incurred deposition.  Hence, his ordinations--to use the Latin terminology that you have used--are "invalid."

Some in your group flaunt consecration certificates by Christopher Kontogeorgios or Theophan Noli, but both of these Metropolitans later were received into communion with the other Orthodox jurisdictions.

In the 1920's and 1930's it was a confusing time for Orthodoxy in America and it was understandable for there to be these kinds of situations.  But in 2006, you basically don't have the same situation and things are more clear.  What advantage do you get out of being a vagante body?

Hardly anyone in the SCOBA hates you or feels threatened by you, by the way--you should stop confusing people disagreeing with your ecclesiology with hatred or jealousy.  I am sure there are people who explained their views on your Church in a less than charitable way, but at the same time, as a whole, I don't think most in SCOBA hate you.  I would wager that 90% of people in SCOBA including hierarchs have no idea who you even are.

While I have your attention, do you believe that Roman Catholics have valid baptism and apostolic succession? What about Anglicans? That will help me in part to understand your point of view.

I am not generally combative by nature but you are not the first "American Catholic Orthodox Church" person (or person claiming to be a clergyman in such) to come here, present himself as a clergyman, not be accepted, insult us, and leave in a huff.  I am hence wary of people from your jurisdiction based on prior interractions.

Anastasios
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2006, 04:22:43 PM »

On second thought I believe he ordained two of the bishops before the marriage.  Some came later though.  At any rate, he was excommunicated and they stayed in communion with him, thus incurring his penalty.

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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2006, 05:49:44 PM »

My first thing is to apologize for my stuffiness. I don't mean to be huff. I may have used the word of Hatred in a wrong manner and I do apologize for that as well. I can't say any thing wrong against the OCA as they are a valid Jurisdiction as well a the rest of the Orthodox Jurisdiction here in America. A lot of you have a misunderstanding about Aftimios Ofiesh, yes he did marry but he was never excommunicated by the Patriarch of Constantinople, as there is no give proof of any document of excommunication against Aftimios Ofiesh has ever been seen or found. He was also not excommunicated by his own Synod. Plus his Bishops were not consecrated after the so called excommunication, they were consecrated way before.

Yes there have been others that flaunt consecration certificates to show that their line are true, I have not do to that if any one wants to see consecration Certificates all they have to do is request any and all certificates from my Metropolitan.

The one thing I do want to say is that this Jurisdiction,has had a lot problems through out the the years with it's clergy. Lot have been excommunicated by the Metropolitan's or my our bishops. I am sure that all the different jurisdiction have had the some problem. But i have met a lot of Clergy that have left the OCA and others as well as ours that have not been excommunicated. All  of the Jurisdiction here in America has had problem or still have problems with disobedient Clergy.

As for Metropolitan Joachim Souris of Blessed Memory was Consecrated Metropolitan of the Old Calendar Greek Orthodox Church of Athens and was asked to drop his Churches here in America and turned over to his Exarchs in America
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2006, 06:38:30 PM »

Quote
Excommunicated bishops--even if it was unjust (in his case, the political situation was unjust but his subsequent marriage was the clencher that ultimately got him excommunicated) cannot make new bishops.  By so doing, he incurred deposition.  Hence, his ordinations--to use the Latin terminology that you have used--are "invalid."

I'm not sure I follow.  In the strictest sense that would make Metr. Chrysostomos of Florina et al unable to consecrate new bishops - something that you obviously don't believe.   
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2006, 11:15:46 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg122988#msg122988 date=1149460710]
I'm not sure I follow.  In the strictest sense that would make Metr. Chrysostomos of Florina et al unable to consecrate new bishops - something that you obviously don't believe.   
[/quote]

Sorry for not being clear.  Of course for my ecclesiological viewpoint to make sense, there has to be the caveat that the excommunication is indeed "valid."  Met Chrysostomos of Florina, who was excommunicated by the State Church of Greece, was in resistance and his excommunication, which was based solely on his resistance to modernism and the New Calendar, was thereby invalid, if one follows the 15th canon of the First-Second council.  My point is that Bishop Aftimios was not excommunicated for resistance to heresy/ecclesiastical error but simply because a) he was on the wrong side of a minor political dispute which had nothing to do with faith and b) he married.  So he was "validly" excommunicated and hence unable to consecrate. I'm sure someone will point out that this is highly subjective and I would completely agree; unlike Roman Catholicism, there is no central authority in Orthodoxy on earth per se and as such, sometimes we have to make our stand and submit ourselve to judgment with the hope that we are making the right decision.  Some making this resistance in the past, such as St Theodore the Studite, St Maximos the Confessor, etc., were in the end judged right, while others such as the Old Believers and others, were judged schismatic.  Some, like the Arsenites, were admitted back into communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople on the assumption that they had been Orthodox all along, if the sources I am reading are accurate.  If I had the ability to do an MTh, my thesis would definitely be on resistance movements in Orthodoxy as I think a lot of thought still needs to be put into the subject.

I was wrong though about Aftimios's earlier consecrations, so I will have to formally retract the argument anyway.

Anastasios
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2006, 01:03:42 AM »

Thanks, Anastasios.  I agree that this is indeed an interesting topic and would love to see some scholarly research on it, opposed to polemic. 
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2006, 02:16:50 AM »

You say End of story. I don't think so. When some one says that my Jurisdiction and my Bishop and my Metropolitan and so on,  are not Orthodox thats where you are wrong my friend. Just because the OCA and others don't recognizes us doesn't mean we are not Orthodox. My Bishops have been in the Orthodox church as long as some of your bishops and I have been in the Orthodox just as long as some of you that are Priests. To say that one is not Orthodox shows me that you are not
Orthodox as well. Define who is Orthodox and who is not Orthodox, Because you have proved to me that you are not Orthodox
or even a good Orthodox Christian as well. To which I have said in my Posting that there is to much Hatred in the Orthodox Church. Only Christ Himself can say who is and who isn't Orthodox, a long with who is a good christian and who isn't a good christian.  Peace be with you



Believe whatever you want.  You're not going to get anyone on this message board to accept your argument in any case.  While I my understand Anastasios's point/position, I still think his case is dubious at best.  Yours?  One of those myriad of wannabe orthodox groups out there.  Sorry, but that's the way it is.
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 02:46:48 AM »

Sorry for not being clear.ÂÂ  Of course for my ecclesiological viewpoint to make sense, there has to be the caveat that the excommunication is indeed "valid."ÂÂ  Met Chrysostomos of Florina, who was excommunicated by the State Church of Greece, was in resistance and his excommunication, which was based solely on his resistance to modernism and the New Calendar, was thereby invalid, if one follows the 15th canon of the First-Second council.ÂÂ  My point is that Bishop Aftimios was not excommunicated for resistance to heresy/ecclesiastical error but simply because a) he was on the wrong side of a minor political dispute which had nothing to do with faith and b) he married.ÂÂ  So he was "validly" excommunicated and hence unable to consecrate. I'm sure someone will point out that this is highly subjective and I would completely agree; unlike Roman Catholicism, there is no central authority in Orthodoxy on earth per se and as such, sometimes we have to make our stand and submit ourselve to judgment with the hope that we are making the right decision.ÂÂ  Some making this resistance in the past, such as St Theodore the Studite, St Maximos the Confessor, etc., were in the end judged right, while others such as the Old Believers and others, were judged schismatic.ÂÂ  Some, like the Arsenites, were admitted back into communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople on the assumption that they had been Orthodox all along, if the sources I am reading are accurate.ÂÂ  If I had the ability to do an MTh, my thesis would definitely be on resistance movements in Orthodoxy as I think a lot of thought still needs to be put into the subject.

I was wrong though about Aftimios's earlier consecrations, so I will have to formally retract the argument anyway.

Anastasios

Since Aftimios Ofiesh was head of a New Jurisdiction and it's Primate. Plus being under once under the Russian Metropolia, and the Syrian Orthodox Church. The Patriarch of Constantinople at that time had no authority in the affairs of the New Jurisdiction. So as for Aftimios he steped down to Mary. And once again there is no proof or document showing that Aftimios was excmmunicated either by
said Patriarch or by any of his Bishops. So as it stand it is nothing but a roomer or said document was never sent and made it invalid.
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2006, 10:17:12 AM »

Since Aftimios Ofiesh was head of a New Jurisdiction and it's Primate. Plus being under once under the Russian Metropolia, and the Syrian Orthodox Church. The Patriarch of Constantinople at that time had no authority in the affairs of the New Jurisdiction. So as for Aftimios he steped down to Mary. And once again there is no proof or document showing that Aftimios was excmmunicated either by
said Patriarch or by any of his Bishops. So as it stand it is nothing but a roomer or said document was never sent and made it invalid.

Oh! Well, that's different! You still are Orthodox due to a technicality!ÂÂ  CheesyÂÂ  Roll Eyes

Well, why not just petition SCOBA to become a member now and remove this cloud from your church's ligitimacy?
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2006, 12:28:14 PM »

What the other responders have said.

To the original poster: what's your background? Is English your first language? Where did you go to seminary? Are you a born member of your church? How many 'cradle' members are in your congregation? In your denomination?

Sorry, Charlie - you're not Orthodox and ranting that you are only makes you look worse. Real Orthodox are recognised by other Orthodox and don't go on and on and on about their 'canonical lines'. When you start hearing about 'lines of succession' you can be fairly sure you're not dealing with a commonly recognised real church but rather vagantes, ecclesiastical wannabes.

I can respect as somehow real anything that has a real congregation, a real ministry, and better still, generational members. If you have those things, good for you! The old Methodist chapel across the street from my house gets that kind of respect from me. But they don't claim - LOUDLY or at all - to be something they're not.

AFAIK there's only one legitimate group that came by way of Aftimios, the Western Rite one eventually led by Alexander Turner that, in the 1950s, became the beginning of the Antiochian Orthodox' American archdiocese's Western Rite Vicariate.

Oh, and what's this to do with Orthodox-Roman Catholic discussion, the topic of this folder?
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2006, 02:28:28 PM »

Believe whatever you want.ÂÂ  You're not going to get anyone on this message board to accept your argument in any case.ÂÂ  While I my understand Anastasios's point/position, I still think his case is dubious at best.ÂÂ  Yours?ÂÂ  One of those myriad of wannabe orthodox groups out there.ÂÂ  Sorry, but that's the way it is.

I feel sorry for you, if you are a clergymen. do you that you represent youself
in an un-orthodox christian manner. so you know I have a few OCA Priest who are
friends of mine, plus they know that I am a valid Priest. plus they understand about my
jurisdiction until at some time when my Jurisdiction is done reorgnizing that My Metroplitan
will be talking with the main Stream Orthdoox Churches.
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2006, 02:35:52 PM »

FPA:

As young fogey and a few others have said. YOU ARE NOT ORTHODOX! Stop the ranting and if you think this is unChristian tough. Pary for us. Better people than any of us here have defended the faith sometimes in an "unchristian" manner.
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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2006, 03:15:59 PM »

If you want to be an Orthodox priest so much why don't you join a recognised Orthodox church - after all it was good enough for your OCA priest friends - then after a while talk to the bishop about sending you to a seminary for training, and if he approves, eventually be ordained one?

My guess is if you were in a group run by a living former Orthodox bishop and that bishop was reinstated you could be accepted as a priest. But being generations removed from that - again, 'validity' and 'lines of succession' aren't legal tender in Orthodox theology if they're outside Orthodoxy - won't fly.

As you haven't deigned to answer any of my questions does that mean you have no theological education, no congregation nor any born members?
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« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2006, 05:43:01 PM »

Thumbs down to most of you. I stand by what I have said as most of you really don't know much about the AOCC. You people always comment back to Aftimios as being Ex-COMMUNICATED by the Patriarch of Constantinople to which  is only hear say as there is no proof of said document of EXCOMMUNICATION and no said document has ever been given or found. Plus his own Synod didn't even ECOMMUNICATE Aftimois either.

As for you calling us vagantes and wannabes.thats you opinion. But I will say is yes there are those who are vagantes and wannabes do to the fact that they come out of the Old Roman Catholics. As for me I was a convert out of the Baptist  Church in to the orthodox church and was Baptized and confirmed in to the Holy Orthodox Church. as for my seminary times we have our own seminary,it may not be like St Tikon's or St Vladimir's  but I was tought according to the Cancon Laws of the Orthodox Church. Plus I speak two languages on is English and the other which doesn't have a written language which comes from the American Indians also called the people.

Now there are two Valid Jurisdiction of the AOCC one in New Your and in Pennsylvania. Both with Valid lines from Walter Propheta of Blessed Memory who came from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Walther Propheta who's Lines are Valid was the Metropolitan of the AOCC from the 60's to the Early 70's and was recognized by Socba as he was a member and also worked a long side with Former Metropolitan Iakovos of the Greek Orthodox Church of America of Blessed Memory. All this is documented on File with Scoba if said flies were kept. from that time. to find out more about us your Bishops can contact my Metropolitan who is in Pennsylvania or they can also contact the Metropolitan in New York

one Question I would like to ask some of you in the OCA.I know that you are in Communion with the Greek Orthodox Church of America. Put has the Patriarch of Constantinople recognized your validity as being the first and only true Orthodox Church for  American People regardless what there back ground is.
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« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2006, 05:48:22 PM »

If you want to be an Orthodox priest so much why don't you join a recognised Orthodox church - after all it was good enough for your OCA priest friends - then after a while talk to the bishop about sending you to a seminary for training, and if he approves, eventually be ordained one?

My guess is if you were in a group run by a living former Orthodox bishop and that bishop was reinstated you could be accepted as a priest. But being generations removed from that - again, 'validity' and 'lines of succession' aren't legal tender in Orthodox theology if they're outside Orthodoxy - won't fly.

As you haven't deigned to answer any of my questions does that mean you have no theological education, no congregation nor any born members?

I don't need to go to another Orthodox Juristisdiction to be a priest I know where I come fromÂÂ  and I am just as Valid as any one here.ÂÂ  we do have people and no matter what you or anyÂÂ  one here says. This Jurisdiction is here to stay and will not go a way.
one other word at least I use my real name here. and not some nick or odd make up name.

You guys sure like to use the word not Orthodox, as you can not disprove who we are not, you can only go by what has been told to you by your bishops. As we can prove who we are. So like I said I am here to say as well a my Jurisdiction  and Bishops so we are here to stay and won't go a way or even disappear.
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« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2006, 07:01:40 PM »

I don't need to go to another Orthodox Juristisdiction to be a priest I know where I come fromÂÂ  and I am just as Valid as any one here.ÂÂ  we do have people and no matter what you or anyÂÂ  one here says. This Jurisdiction is here to stay and will not go a way.
one other word at least I use my real name here. and not some nick or odd make up name.

You guys sure like to use the word not Orthodox, as you can not disprove who we are not, you can only go by what has been told to you by your bishops. As we can prove who we are. So like I said I am here to say as well a my JurisdictionÂÂ  and Bishops so we are here to stay and won't go a way or even disappear.
And your reason for coming to this forum is...................?
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« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 08:12:41 PM »

And your reason for coming to this forum is...................?

I came here as a friend I didn't come to fight with any one. But I will defend my Jurisdiction. as no one can disprove that my Jurisdiction is not a Valid Jurisdiction. I have stated that any one wants to know if we are Valid all the have to do is have your Metropolitan talk to my Metropolitan. if they want to know who my Metropolitan is they can E-mail at acoo_chancellor@inbox .com
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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2006, 08:38:21 PM »

I came here as a friend I didn't come to fight with any one. But I will defend my Jurisdiction. as no one can disprove that my Jurisdiction is not a Valid Jurisdiction. I have stated that any one wants to know if we are Valid all the have to do is have your Metropolitan talk to my Metropolitan. if they want to know who my Metropolitan is they can E-mail at acoo_chancellor@inbox .com

No, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that ANY Orthodox Bishop in this country (or the world for that matter) recognizes your bishops.  Sorry, but that's the way it goes.
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2006, 08:52:22 PM »

So tell me about your congregation. Where is it? How many? How many are cradle members? What kind of services do you have for them and how often?
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2006, 09:09:15 PM »

You know, people like the young fogey who have years of experience dealing with groups like "the American Orthodox Church" or people like me who have MDiv's and whose thesis involved in part researching Ofiesh, Kontagiorgios, Joachim Souris, et al could spend the time to debate you, Father, but honestly, it would be pointless. If you came to be a friend your first post should not have been basically, "I AM HERE TO BE YOUR FRIEND EVEN THOUGH YOU WILL PROBABLY HATE MY BISHOP!" which was basically your rallying cry.  If you were simply here posting for awhile on Orthodox topics without throwing your jurisdiction and its claims around so loudly, you probably actually would make friends.  We have several Catholic, Protestant, and even Jewish posters here and we all get along.

Basically, some food for thought is that the Orthodox do not believe in "lines of succession."  That you are espousing this Roman Catholic belief is the first hint that there is a problem with your ecclesiology.  I will not debate you on this though.  I, like the young fogey, would be interested in knowing what exactly your Church is like on a day to day basis though.

Anastasios
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2006, 11:58:21 PM »

I came here as a friend I didn't come to fight with any one. But I will defend my Jurisdiction.
Did anyone on this forum attack your jurisdiction on this forum before you submitted your first post?  If not, then why do you need to make your presence known here by immediately launching a defense of your jurisdiction?  I guess I just don't understand the concept of preemptive defense--it's kinda like saying, "I hit him back first."
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« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2006, 01:23:19 AM »

No, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that ANY Orthodox Bishop in this country (or the world for that matter) recognizes your bishops.ÂÂ  Sorry, but that's the way it goes.
Sorry I don't have to prove nothing to you or any one eles,  Like I said if  any of your Bishop what to know who we are Just ask Metropolian Hermen who I have great respect for is to talk to my Metropolitan .  Metropolitan Herame should teach some of you good manners on how to  good Orthodox clery because I sure haven't seen any here. your lay people have more Orthodox christian in them than some of you have in your little pinky
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2006, 01:53:03 AM »

So tell me about your congregation. Where is it? How many? How many are cradle members? What kind of services do you have for them and how often?

 First of all we are reorgnizing our jurisdiction. Two- we do that same liturgy as very one else on Sunday, Holy week plus Holy Nativity . we do is Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom . we are not western rite or old catholics my any means. do to two flooding we have not use the church much so like I said we are in the mist or reorgnizing and plus relocating the Church. so very few people come to sundays liturgy the rets of the time they all come on Holy pashca. all our members are Orthodox.
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2006, 02:48:14 AM »

Did anyone on this forum attack your jurisdiction on this forum before you submitted your first post?ÂÂ  If not, then why do you need to make your presence known here by immediately launching a defense of your jurisdiction?ÂÂ  I guess I just don't understand the concept of preemptive defense--it's kinda like saying, "I hit him back first."


not until my first Posting as I was only making comments. see there are a lot of clergy from main stream to the OCA that have a misunderstanding about Aftimios Ofiest. See be fore I ever came in to the Orthodox Church, I thought there was only the Protestant Churchs and the Roman Catholic Church. The first time I ever heard of the Orthodox Church was in 1999. when I met an orthodox priest whom be came a good friend to me. he is not reposed from what information I got from his family. I did a lot of research about the orthodox church . so one night I had a deam at least I thought it was. any way The lord came to me and asked me to follow the priest to where the lord wanted me to be. that's when IÂÂ  was guided to the jurisdiction of the AOCC. I don't know why but I do as the lord asked me to do. So ever since being in the church I heard people us fakes wannabes and so on. so this is way I am very protective of my Bishops and my jurisdiction. I don't mean to sound a A?? h?? .but I do loose my temper at times. I told one person that I do have friends in the OCA who are priest and know that I am valid. any way my friend God Bless and e-mail me any time
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« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2006, 02:54:15 AM »

Let's turn the question around - what must one do in order to actually be Orthodox?  If canonical unity with the rest of the Orthodox Church isn't the answer, what is?  Are Russian Old Believers Orthodox as well?  What about the multiple self proclaimed Ukrainian Orthodox Churches?  Where do you draw the line - if you can actually draw it? ÂÂ
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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2006, 04:35:06 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9194.msg123155#msg123155 date=1149576855]
Let's turn the question around - what must one do in order to actually be Orthodox?  If canonical unity with the rest of the Orthodox Church isn't the answer, what is?  Are Russian Old Believers Orthodox as well?  What about the multiple self proclaimed Ukrainian Orthodox Churches?  Where do you draw the line - if you can actually draw it? ÂÂ
[/quote]

You know you give me some thing to think about. some times I wonder if all the Orthodox Church are really together or are they. it sounds like they are all different in Practice or do they really conform to the Canon Laws from the Early Church fathers. As for drawing a line I don't think any one could draw a line. This may sound stupid But from the AOCC to the OCA to all the Ukrinian Churchs and both Greek orthodox Churches who is real and who is not. I wonder if any one can answer this. this si some thing to think about
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« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2006, 04:47:18 AM »

You know, people like the young fogey who have years of experience dealing with groups like "the American Orthodox Church" or people like me who have MDiv's and whose thesis involved in part researching Ofiesh, Kontagiorgios, Joachim Souris, et al could spend the time to debate you, Father, but honestly, it would be pointless. If you came to be a friend your first post should not have been basically, "I AM HERE TO BE YOUR FRIEND EVEN THOUGH YOU WILL PROBABLY HATE MY BISHOP!" which was basically your rallying cry.ÂÂ  If you were simply here posting for awhile on Orthodox topics without throwing your jurisdiction and its claims around so loudly, you probably actually would make friends.ÂÂ  We have several Catholic, Protestant, and even Jewish posters here and we all get along.

Basically, some food for thought is that the Orthodox do not believe in "lines of succession."ÂÂ  That you are espousing this Roman Catholic belief is the first hint that there is a problem with your ecclesiology.ÂÂ  I will not debate you on this though.ÂÂ  I, like the young fogey, would be interested in knowing what exactly your Church is like on a day to day basis though.

Anastasios
what you wrote is not what I said in my First posting

I would like to caht with you and youg fogey as I am an old fogeyÂÂ  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2006, 08:05:03 AM »

Is English your mother tongue or are you just a bad typist?
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« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2006, 09:04:35 AM »

Quote
Is English your mother tongue or are you just a bad typist?

I was trying to ask that too, only without mentioning the bad typing.

I got no answers regarding where this allegedly flooded-out church is nor the backgrounds of the parishioners (such as, are any of them born members of your church?). Perfectly civil questions.

So I see, unsurprisingly, no evidence of theological schooling (where presumably one would learn how to write coherently) and no real ministry.

Real OCA priests wouldn't describe a vagante as 'valid'. Not only does that make no sense according to Orthodoxy but, as has been said, that term along with 'canonical lines' (a vagante favourite) aren't part of Orthodox theological lingo.

I don't believe that Metropolitan Herman would concelebrate with your bishop, for example.

Quote
Two- we do that same liturgy as very one else on Sunday, Holy week plus Holy Nativity .

An Orthodox priest would know that there are several other great feasts besides Christmas when he's required to conduct services.

To the original poster: what we're trying to tell you, apparently without getting through, is that although your friend a few years ago may have been very nice, he wasn't really an Orthodox priest.

In trying to follow him you've joined something you thought was Orthodox but isn't.

Had a look at the website you link to in your profile and found no church locations nor service times. Just a ramble about 'lines of succession'. That says it all.

I suggest that if all one wants to do is brag about being a priest one should do that somewhere else.

Reminds me of the guys who claim they're ex-Navy SEALs* to try to pick up girls.

Just like real SEALs don't talk like that, a priest, even from a church that's not really Orthodox, would talk about his ministry in a real place with a name to actual human beings.

To clarify: I have no direct experience (like being an ex-member) of these vagante churches but in following church matters over more than 20 years have learnt a lot about them.

*The equivalent of commandos to non-US readers.
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« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2006, 02:26:55 PM »

Is English your mother tongue or are you just a bad typist?

English and some times I do make mistakes and forget to check my Typing
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« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2006, 02:37:21 PM »

I was trying to ask that too, only without mentioning the bad typing.

I got no answers regarding where this allegedly flooded-out church is nor the backgrounds of the parishioners (such as, are any of them born members of your church?). Perfectly civil questions.

So I see, unsurprisingly, no evidence of theological schooling (where presumably one would learn how to write coherently) and no real ministry.

Real OCA priests wouldn't describe a vagante as 'valid'. Not only does that make no sense according to Orthodoxy but, as has been said, that term along with 'canonical lines' (a vagante favourite) aren't part of Orthodox theological lingo.

I don't believe that Metropolitan Herman would concelebrate with your bishop, for example.

An Orthodox priest would know that there are several other great feasts besides Christmas when he's required to conduct services.

To the original poster: what we're trying to tell you, apparently without getting through, is that although your friend a few years ago may have been very nice, he wasn't really an Orthodox priest.

In trying to follow him you've joined something you thought was Orthodox but isn't.

Had a look at the website you link to in your profile and found no church locations nor service times. Just a ramble about 'lines of succession'. That says it all.

I suggest that if all one wants to do is brag about being a priest one should do that somewhere else.

Reminds me of the guys who claim they're ex-Navy SEALs* to try to pick up girls.

Just like real SEALs don't talk like that, a priest, even from a church that's not really Orthodox, would talk about his ministry in a real place with a name to actual human beings.

To clarify: I have no direct experience (like being an ex-member) of these vagante churches but in following church matters over more than 20 years have learnt a lot about them.

*The equivalent of commandos to non-US readers.

At this time I really don't care what you say. Like I said I know where I come from I know that my Bishops are true,and thats all I am going to say. Only Christ knows that I have said is true. So drop the Matter,since there is no looser or winner. We'll leave it to Chrits to judge
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« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2006, 02:48:11 PM »

Then stop wasting our time and bandwidth, Mr Hood, and go pretend to be a priest somewhere else.
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« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2006, 03:18:16 PM »

This is a great example why I am 'not' Orthodox!  Roll Eyes

As a Christian I don't establish my salvation through 'valid lines of succession' but through my faith in Jesus Christ and my confession of Him as my Lord and Saviour.

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:9-13

Relying on men to confirm or establish one's faith is questionable. If you have faith, stand in confidence before the Lord your God for you will stand before Him alone on the Day of Judgement regardless.

Sorry for butting in. Continue on...

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« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2006, 03:57:39 PM »

Actually, to be fair, chrisb:

• The Orthodox don't play that 'valid lines of succession' game either, a reason why Mr Hood's antics are offensive.
• However, salvation is meant to come through the church, which is a divine institution founded by Christ, not just a collection of individually saved people having fellowship. Logically the 'me'n'Jesus' approach you describe can take you anywhere from John Spong to Jim Jones.
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« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2006, 04:03:09 PM »

This is a great example why I am 'not' Orthodox!  Roll Eyes

As a Christian I don't establish my salvation through 'valid lines of succession' but through my faith in Jesus Christ and my confession of Him as my Lord and Saviour.

And also another example of how you don't know, mischaracterize or simply do not attentively read what Orthodox people write in clear English.

Basically, some food for thought is that the Orthodox do not believe in "lines of succession."  That you are espousing this Roman Catholic belief is the first hint that there is a problem with your ecclesiology.

Real Orthodox are recognised by other Orthodox and don't go on and on and on about their 'canonical lines'. When you start hearing about 'lines of succession' you can be fairly sure you're not dealing with a commonly recognised real church but rather vagantes, ecclesiastical wannabes.

As has been stated multiple times in this thread (and in the most rudimentary Orthodox Christian catechism), the Orthodox Church considers the Faith itself to be the absolute and most important part of Apostolicity, not technical "lines of succession." Enough of the fictitious examples and would-be strawmen!
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« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2006, 04:46:16 PM »

Actually, to be fair, chrisb:

• The Orthodox don't play that 'valid lines of succession' game either, a reason why Mr Hood's antics are offensive.
• However, salvation is meant to come through the church, which is a divine institution founded by Christ, not just a collection of individually saved people having fellowship. Logically the 'me'n'Jesus' approach you describe can take you anywhere from John Spong to Jim Jones.

Hi there mr. fogey,

I don't want to get in between your fuss with Mr. Hood but what do you intrepret this passage to mean?

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. - Romans 18:20

PS: I made this a topic in converts as well...
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« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2006, 05:16:52 PM »

It can mean that in the invisible sense that Protestants are comfortable with. As Orthodox say, they know where the church is but don't presume to say where it's not. But to guarantee he's in your midst, the two or three should be a part of the visible church, the one with bishops, sacraments, etc.

Much like Roman Catholics, Orthodox do claim lines of succession as part of having bishops but unlike the game-players don't act like they're the only important part of that. Outside the context of their church, the Orthodox say, such 'lines' mean nothing and no amount of pleading or badgering can change that.

When the boys came out to play
Vagante Poseur ran away.
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« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2006, 06:37:14 PM »

I am so enjoying your banter and replies young fogey.

ChrisB. Be careful, if you read too much in this site you may become Orthodox!  We'd love to have you.
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« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2006, 07:39:05 PM »

ChrisB. Be careful, if you read too much in this site you may become Orthodox!  We'd love to have you.
Indeed!  I know of many cradle Protestants who became Orthodox--I'm one of them.  But I really don't know of any such converts who reverted back to Protestantism.  You're going to have an extremely difficult time preaching a Protestant (Baptist) apologetic to the many of us ex-Protestants who are very familiar with your apologetic and have discovered very strong biblical reasons for rejecting it.
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« Reply #42 on: June 06, 2006, 08:11:11 PM »

Hey. let's start a new thread and banter with ChrisB!
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« Reply #43 on: June 06, 2006, 11:31:25 PM »

Hey. let's start a new thread and banter with ChrisB!
I think another thread has already turned into that.  Grin

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9068.0
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« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2006, 01:52:39 AM »

I just realized whats wrong in the Orthodox Chuch today. There is no christian Love do, to Priests that think they are Better than others. For exsample Main Stream churchs, The OCA, Rocor, The Greek orthodox Church in America and so on. They have to much pride in them selfs and they think that they are better than the Independent Orthodox Churches. These so called Goody two shose Priests like to use the words like (vagants) and wannabe The word vangante is not a word at all since it is not in the DistionaryÂÂ  Smiley. I think this is their new words that they have put in to the canon laws. They have to realize that Being Orthodox is not being in communion with another Orthodox church. The word communion is for taking the body and Blood of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ who is the Church High Priest of the Church, who we are incommunion with.ÂÂ  The Church is not a building the Church is people coming toegther in one Belief in Jesus christ. You don't have to be incommunion with a building that has a name. Like The OCA,or Russian or Greek.or Syrian, or AOC. being in communionÂÂ  is that All orthodox Churches are in communion togther by Belief and faith. it not by who is who or who is better. Plus just because a person learns in a small seminary in stead of a large Seminary does not make him any lesser of a priest than a Priest from a larger Seminary. I am Paul I am an Orthodox Priest,I am not a Mister. I was ordained in sucession through the Apostles and Jesus Christ.I an not a vangante or a wannbe for Christ is my Arch Priest and Bishop through himÂÂ and my belief is the Church andÂÂ  I serve the people, People do not serve me. The orthodox people are the Church as the church is Jesus christ.ÂÂ  Smiley
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