Author Topic: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...  (Read 3705 times)

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Offline Gabriel

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I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« on: June 02, 2006, 07:58:32 PM »
http://www.timesofmalta.com/core/article.php?id=225118

What can I say?  I don't even know where it's front is.   :-\
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Yes, more than those who watch for the morning.

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2006, 10:08:54 PM »
I dunno, I think there are ways to incoperate modern architecture into church building.  That particular one isn't very nice looking though... the worst is that horrid thing built by FLW in Milwaukee.   

Offline Elisha

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2006, 10:10:34 PM »
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9186.msg122843#msg122843 date=1149300534]
I dunno, I think there are ways to incoperate modern architecture into church building.  That particular one isn't very nice looking though... the worst is that horrid thing built by FLW in Milwaukee.   
[/quote]

Who is FLW?

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2006, 10:57:37 PM »
Frank Lloyd Wright

Offline FrChris

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2006, 12:20:51 AM »
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9186.msg122843#msg122843 date=1149300534]
the worst is that horrid thing built by FLW in Milwaukee.  ÃƒÆ’‚  
[/quote]

Yes, the Milwaukee Monstrosity (*shudder*) needs to be seen to be truly appreciated...

http://www.annunciationwi.com/

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Offline pensateomnia

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2006, 12:35:24 AM »
Fr. Jon Boukis is there now!!!?
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline FrChris

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2006, 12:45:13 AM »
Nai, nai, bebaios!
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline choirfiend

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2006, 09:35:29 AM »
Hey, it's not ugly at all compared to most non-Orthodox churches that are just warehouses filled with sound deadening material so that the praise band doesnt get too loud. The Milwaukee Church is circular as ancient churches were and has a dome. Can't get more traditional than that.
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Offline Fr. David

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2006, 11:08:14 AM »
I was just thinking that.  The Milwaukee Church doesn't look all that bad to me.
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Offline FrChris

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2006, 12:47:34 PM »
I was just thinking that.ÂÂ  The Milwaukee Church doesn't look all that bad to me.

(Heavy sigh)

You can take Pedro out of Texas, but I guess you can't take the Texas out of Pedro... ;)
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2006, 01:11:20 PM »
I've actually seen this monster in person, it ain't pretty.  It is tacky looking inside - tacky even by Greek standards (which aren't high). 

Offline choirfiend

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2006, 01:16:19 PM »
Its the home church of my old roomate. Dya know some ppl in that area who were searching for Orthodoxy were actually told not to go to that parish because it would not be a good example of Orthodoxy because the church was heretically built? People are STUPID.

It's a fine church.
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Offline observer

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2006, 01:32:27 PM »
I knew it!  There are UFOs after all.. :-*
Thou shalt not prefer one thing to another (Law of Liberalism)

Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2006, 01:38:56 PM »
Quote
Dya know some ppl in that area who were searching for Orthodoxy were actually told not to go to that parish because it would not be a good example of Orthodoxy because the church was heretically built?

Obviously that is over the top, a BUILDING can't be heretical.  I think it is typical of Wright - some of his work is amazingly beautiful, some of it is just plain weird, some of it just plain ugly.  But that's what is nice about architecture, one person loves it another hates it.

As a function of a church, I agree that it is fine - although the project ended up being ridiculously expensive, which isn't really practical for most parishes. ÂÂ  
 ÃƒÆ’‚  

Offline Fr. David

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2006, 01:41:22 PM »
You can take Pedro out of Texas, but I guess you can't take the Texas out of Pedro... ;)

Ah pity the foo' who TRY ta' take me outta Texas!  ;D



People are STUPID.

They are indeed.  How ridiculous.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2006, 01:42:44 PM by Pedro »
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2006, 02:01:09 PM »

Offline Starlight

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2006, 12:06:38 AM »
It's a fine church.

Agree. I think it looks OK.
because the church was heretically built?
Unimagenable.

Offline Elisha

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2006, 03:32:32 AM »
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9186.msg122908#msg122908 date=1149354680]
I've actually seen this monster in person, it ain't pretty.  It is tacky looking inside - tacky even by Greek standards (which aren't high). 
[/quote]

Has anyone gone to Ascension in Oakland, CA?  I wonder which looks worse?  I know Oakland has the worst looking "iconography" I've ever scene.  I use quotes since supposedly they weren't painted by an Iconographer - they look like aliens!

Offline FrChris

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2006, 10:34:17 AM »
Has anyone gone to Ascension in Oakland, CA?ÂÂ  I wonder which looks worse?ÂÂ  I know Oakland has the worst looking "iconography" I've ever scene.ÂÂ  I use quotes since supposedly they weren't painted by an Iconographer - they look like aliens!

Here's an alias from the cathedral's website to see these interesting icons:

http://www.ascensioncathedral.org/Pages/cathedralinside.html

I'd just like to say that, even though the exteriors or interiors of some of these buildings might not be to my liking, I beleive the Holy Spirit still visits there.

Any other 'interesting' architectural details out there?
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline Ebor

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2006, 11:54:22 AM »
Its the home church of my old roomate. Dya know some ppl in that area who were searching for Orthodoxy were actually told not to go to that parish because it would not be a good example of Orthodoxy because the church was heretically built? People are STUPID.

It's a fine church.

"Heretically built?!?!  What is that supposed to mean?  That Wright wasn't EO?  Great Googly-Moogly!

I think it's quite striking on the outside.  If the inside is not up to some standards, I don't think you can lay that at Wright's feet.

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2006, 11:56:33 AM »
Would people saying a church was "heretically built" insist on checking the believes of the actually builders: the concrete workers, plumbers, electricians and such like, one wonders.

Ebor
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Offline choirfiend

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2006, 08:52:44 PM »
I believe their point was that it was some huge departure from "traditional" Orthodox architecture and therefore somehow not quite Orthodox enough for them.
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Offline Thomas

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2006, 11:01:49 PM »
Most  Orthodox Churches in the United States are built by non-Orthodox architechs and builders. It is the responsibility of the Parish Building committee working in tandem with their diocese's bishop to assure that plans meet the minimal requirements for an Orthodox Church.  Our Bishop works well with the committees in our diocese and discusses with them the  "Orthodoxy" of the building.  He is careful to note that it should be a pure model of an Orthodox building, no blending of techniques or styles.  I do not know how he would feel about a Modern Orthodox Church, as I have not seen one of that style in our diocese however, I know he does not like the mixing of styles.

As I understand it, the hierarchs approve the building of all permanent facilities in the Orthodox Church, advise who is an "approved" iconographer and style of iconography for the diocese. As a result the "ugly" churches must have been approved prior to their building---the real quaestion might be, Can a Modern Orthodox Church be built in a modern style or must it always be in traditional styling?

For evangelistic purposes, I prefer the traditional style that says to the general public, here is an Orthodox Church meaning, domes, and icons; howveer I am not opposed to a tastefully done modern church building if it inspires the feeling of worshiping in heaven.

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Offline Ebor

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2006, 11:33:12 PM »
Just a thought that occurred to me:

Even "Traditional" styles of architecture were new once....

Ebor
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2006, 01:01:09 AM »
Quote
I believe their point was that it was some huge departure from "traditional" Orthodox architecture and therefore somehow not quite Orthodox enough for them.

Personally speaking, I don't really care about the "traditionalness" of the building - I think its ugliness is earned independantly. 

I think some modern architecture tries to hard.  I've seen some wonderful looking churches designed to make really cool use of sunlight/shadows and other modern features... but they don't look like a spaceship taking off!

Offline Elisha

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Re: I know I shouldn't say a church is ugly... but...
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2006, 02:12:08 AM »
Our Bishop works well with the committees in our diocese and discusses with them the  "Orthodoxy" of the building.  He is careful to note that it should be a pure model of an Orthodox building, no blending of techniques or styles.  I do not know how he would feel about a Modern Orthodox Church, as I have not seen one of that style in our diocese however, I know he does not like the mixing of styles.

As I understand it, the hierarchs approve the building of all permanent facilities in the Orthodox Church, advise who is an "approved" iconographer and style of iconography for the diocese. As a result the "ugly" churches must have been approved prior to their building---the real quaestion might be, Can a Modern Orthodox Church be built in a modern style or must it always be in traditional styling?

Thomas,
But yet, this is probably a relatively new thing even with the Antiochians (as in the last 15 or so years).  Several of these "ugly" places were probably a result of the 60's, 70's, etc. and/or the result of "how things were" in said jurisdiction or diocese at the time.  For example, since part of the history of the GOA has been more the community having the power and getting the clergy to serve them, the not-so-theologically-read "parish council" probably made the ill-advised choices regarding architechture and such.  Not that this past is something to be proud of...but just to accept and not to repeat.  God knows the mistakes our parish council and leaders made by letting the construction company and architect play us to their whims.  But Thomas, really, your phrasing makes it sound like the Antiochians have everything together and everyone else....well, who knows, but probably not.   That's my impression of your post.  I know that one of the most prominent AOAA iconographers (who btw used to cut my hair when I was young) while her more recent stuff is OK, is still done in acrylic and a bit gaudy looking.  Her older stuff?  Very Protestant looking and cartoonish.  A lot of it is who is in who's favor and not necessarily because they are the best or good.