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Author Topic: Divinity of HIM Haile Selassie  (Read 23611 times) Average Rating: 0
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John of the North
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« on: June 02, 2006, 04:42:27 PM »

Greetings I, Fiqir Bandinet, Satta Massa Ganna,

I really wanted to leave this topic alone.ÂÂ  Seriously, I did.ÂÂ  This is an Orthodox forum, certainly don't want to be reasoning on Rastafarian beliefs.

Nevertheless, I feel that my cotinued prescence here requires that the issue be addressed.ÂÂ  If the thread dies so be it, but if it continues then I will address any questions, debates, points, etc. that are raised.

I also am willing to reason about this on MSN.ÂÂ  I definitely want more Orthodox Christians to talk to on there. CanuckRasta@hotmail.com

To start:

Rev. 5:5, Gen 49:9-10, Isaiah 9:6.

By tradition, Ethiopian rulers, take the title of "King of Kings, Lord of lords, Conquering Lion of the tribe of Judah" as the titles of the throne.ÂÂ  these are the same titles given to the returned Messiah.ÂÂ  The English translation of the name Haile Selassie is Power/Might of the Trinity.

The EOTC has acknowledged that the monarchy was established by Menelik, son of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba.

One Love
Ras Markos Johannis Binyam
Rastaman and Orthodox Seeker

P.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari_movement
« Last Edit: June 02, 2006, 04:44:11 PM by Rastaman » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2006, 05:45:28 PM »

So....what are you trying to address??? 
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2006, 06:12:33 PM »

Fiqir Bandinet,

One of the Ethiopian Orthodox members here, brought back my original thread, in which I addressed the concerns and circumstances of my situation: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7822.msg122813#new

Bottom line is, I am here for certain reasons, and I dont want to disrupt the forum by being harangued by people saying that I cannot be Orthodox, that HIM Haile Selassie said he wasnt divine, etc. etc.

That is what this thread is for - addressing the issue of his divinity, what I can and cant be.

In the end, however, I answer to God and the Christ, His Only Begotten Son.  Whatever people say, I am that I am.  If it wasn't for Haile Selassie, I would still be atheist.

One
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2006, 10:46:53 AM »

Fiqir Bandinet,

One of the Ethiopian Orthodox members here, brought back my original thread, in which I addressed the concerns and circumstances of my situation: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=7822.msg122813#new

Bottom line is, I am here for certain reasons, and I dont want to disrupt the forum by being harangued by people saying that I cannot be Orthodox, that HIM Haile Selassie said he wasnt divine, etc. etc.

That is what this thread is for - addressing the issue of his divinity, what I can and cant be.

In the end, however, I answer to God and the Christ, His Only Begotten Son.ÂÂ  Whatever people say, I am that I am.ÂÂ  If it wasn't for Haile Selassie, I would still be atheist.

One
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All I can say to you is .... God gave us free will and we all have choices in life .... and this includes our choice of religion whether by birth or conversion.

For me, Jesus Christ is the True Son of God who died on the cross two-thousand years ago and then resurrected for our Sins. Jesus is the True Son of God.

I won't speak for the people here at the forum, but most if not all believe this and choose this so why come here .... to convert us? Because our faith is strong and true.

With all do respect; maybe you should carry out your own forum, this might help you in your own beliefs and quests.

In Jesus Christ, My Lord God and Savior
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2006, 03:15:06 AM »

How could he be the Messiah if he flatly denied it?
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2006, 09:50:18 AM »

How could he be the Messiah if he flatly denied it?

1 Thessalonians 5
 1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

A reply to this question from a bredrin:
"A lot of people use the interview answer below to say that Selassie is not Jah. But it is just misinterpretation of his words.

Bill McNeil: "there are millions of Christians throughout the world, your Imperial Majesty, who regard you as the reincarnation of Jesus Christ."
Selassie I: "I had heard of that idea. I also met certain Rastafarians. I told them clearly that 'I am a man,' that 'I am Mortal,' and that 'I would be replaced by the oncoming generation, and that they should never make a mistake in assuming or pretending that the human being is emanated from a deity.'"

When I look at RasTafarI's answer, this is how I Iverstand it. He showed the people that he is a man, and will be replaced by the oncoming generation. Selassie I was born of mother and father, just like I and I, so he didn't come out (emanate) of God, any more than I and I.
Notice that he said that a human cannot emanate from God, but he never said that a human cannot be God. I and I can be God, but only by being One with Jah. I and I can't be God separate from Jah, as two gods. But I and I can only join with Jah, to be One with him, as One God.
Selassie lives by the example of Christ, so he became One with Jah by his destiny and livity. And all of I and I can also be One with Jah, by I and I livity. Selassie I said that "we should never make a mistake in assuming or pretending that the human being is emanated from a deity". This statement shows I that no man, not even the Son of Man Jesus Christ, emanated (or came out) from God. Jesus Christ was born of his mother Mary, and by his destiny and livity became One with Jah.
Jah first sent Jesus Christ born from a virgin, to show I and I the way to live. But afterwards, people made the excuse that they can't live without sin, or be One with Jah. They made the excuse that because Jesus was born differently, that it was possible for him to live this way, but not for us, because we are born from mother and father.
So Jah sent RasTafarI to I and I, to show I and I the way to live. Haile Selassie I was born of mother and father, just like I and I, so we no longer have the excuse that we can't live without sin and be One with Jah. If Selassie I can be born like I and I, and still live without sin and be One with Jah, then I and I can do the same.
So I and I should know that it is not about I and I coming out of God, to be One with Jah. But it is about I and I going to God, to be One with Jah. And I and I go to God, by living in His way, and listening to His instruction, and joining ourselves with the Most High.
Jah RasTafarI is One with Jah, and like I already said about One. One is One in completeness, no separation, and no parts. And I and I are supposed to be One with Jah also, this is the way to reach Zion, because no sin shall not enter in.

Jah Liveth Itinually,

Ark I
RasTafarI
Haile Selassie I"

Much less than a flat denial!

Fiqir Bandinet
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2006, 02:10:35 PM »

Haven`t we recently had a thread dealing with this pseudo-religion? I have tried for the most part to stay out of this but considering the allure rastafari has amongst the young in America I feel a need this address this heresy.
 I grew my locks for twenty-five years ,spent a lot of time in Jamaica "reasoning" with many "elders" of the "faith". I met many God fearing rastas who are in essence Christians by the way they live. Most of these individuals live more or less as monks in the countryside. They keep to themselves and survive with what God gives them.ÂÂ  May God bless them and keep them. That being said.......................
 Rastaman: If Selassie truly was the second coming of Christ , Why is it that ( particularly in Jamaica) individuals who renounce this heresy are routinely threatened with death? Do the followers of this religion sound like they worship a God of Mercy and Tolerance ? Fear and intimidation are the tools used to keep most "Rastas" from deserting this cult. This is a FACT . I`ve seen it time and time again.Bob marley himself tryed to convert to Orthodoxy multiple times during his life but was pressured (threatened) and did not convert until shortly before his death when death threats no longer had any meaning. And I challenge you to produce evidence to the contrary.
 If Selassie was God , would not he want all people to come to him and would he not appoint representatives(Bishops) to accomplish this?ÂÂ  Why then is racism rampant amongst the various sect of Rastafari?
Twelve Tribes , Nyabingi, Bobo dread ...etc. all REAK from head to toe of Black Nationalism and in fact Rasta is nothing more than an extention of Garveyism from the 1920`s.
The Bible is a book that anyone can twist to make it mean anything they want. That is why in Orthodoxy we have Our Holy Fathers and Holy Tradition to prevent such errors.
 Here it is in plain English for you bro: Selassie never was , never will be,and never claimed to be Christ.
That is why upon his return to Ethiopia after his 1962 visit to Jamaica, he instructed the Patriarch of the Ethiopian Coptic church to go to Jamaica to establish Coptic Orthodox churches and to explain to the Jamaican people that he ( Selassie) was the defender of the faith of his forefathers (Orthodoxy) and not Christ. But did the rastas listen , no.ÂÂ  Why? Because they insist that Selassie is the fulfilment of Marcus Garveys` false prophecy of a "black king rising in the east". Again , Black Nationalism pure and simple.
 One more thing . POT AS A SACREMENT? Nowhere is scripture is marijuana listed as a sacrament. This issue above all others is what makes this cult so dangerous and alluring to young people and needs to be called out for flat out LIE that it is. Smoke enough and all rasta "theology" starts to make sense.
 I would end this by saying that Rastas are nothing more than a bunch of pot smoking ,heretical,protestants but I would be insulting all protestants.ÂÂ  
 It`s a bunch of pot smoking , brain washed , cultists.
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2006, 08:24:02 AM »

I know JAH and He's not a deceased African ruler who was himself an Orthodox Christian:

Sing unto God,
sing praises to his name:
extol him that rideth upon the heavens
by his name JAH,
and rejoice before him.
Psalm 68:4

As both a fellow Orthodox Christian to Hali Selassie and a former pothead, I find your promotion of the Rastafarian cult to be offensive.

Peace.

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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2006, 05:04:17 PM »

Promotion?? Promotion?? When did I ever promote anything??

I am just a man who lives life, by the will of JAH. I don't put my trust in men, or books, or words.

You think its a cult, and find it offensive.  Good.  I am happy for you.  You have made your decision, I have made mine, we will be judged by the Most High accordingly.

What does being a "former pothead" have to do with Rastafari??

With regards to allegations of death threats, I can only say that there are so many fake rastas out there who wish to turn the movement for their own purposes.  Rasta is not a thing you convert to or from, you are either in it from creation or not at all.

I have NEVER, NEVER in almost three years been forced to do anything by another Rasta against my will.  I have not been brainwashed, abused, coerced, or had anything demanded of me (money or anything else).

It is true that many discouraged Bob Marley from being baptized into the the EOTC, because of this he was baptized in new York and not Jamaica. To say that he ever denied the divinity of Haile Selassie, would be wrong, because there is no evidence to show whether or not he did.  And many rastas are baptized into the EOTC, without denying the divinity of HIM.

Racism is not rampant among Rastas! There are some who believe that it is at its heart a Black Liberation movement.  But I know caucasian members from all three major house in Rasta.  I am white myself, and in addition, I work for a rasta organization where at least three Head Council members are white.  Bob Marley was half white and had children with women who were white.  Racism is against the words of HIM and cannot be supported by any true Rasta:
"that until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned;...WAR!"

Oh yeah, and his visit to Jamaica was in 1966.

For the record, I have never smoked pot.  I dont approve of it.  Mutabaruka, and Lucky Dube, both Rasta reggae artists, have gone on record against the use of marijuana.

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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2006, 05:09:06 PM »

lol, sorry, I find it funny that an artist named "Lucky Dube" would go on record against marijuana use...haha
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2006, 05:11:48 PM »

lol, sorry, I find it funny that an artist named "Lucky Dube" would go on record against marijuana use...haha

Lol, he is from South Africa, that is his real name.
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2006, 05:31:38 PM »



With regards to allegations of death threats, I can only say that there are so many fake rastas out there who wish to turn the movement for their own purposes.ÂÂ  Rasta is not a thing you convert to or from, you are either in it from creation or not at all.









One
Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam
Dread...you know many years I listened to that retoric? MANY MANY...MANY MANY MANY MANY.
As I stated in my post ,there are rastas that live in the hills that truely have the grace of God about them. They are not members of a "movement" ...they simply live and live simply. But do you know how many gangsters and murdersput on a turban go to bobo hill to hide? To quote Jr. Reid " because all bobo dem like the same!!"  Rasta is NOT a religon. There are no Hierarchs ,no priests ,nothing. Do you know how many "old school rastas" have cut their locks and converted to Orthodoxy because they realized they were worshiping a man and not God?  I don`t have enough time or space to list them all . Many are my close personal friends.
Santa ( drummer with Peter Tosh and Soul syndicate) echos the sentiments of them all.." Dread, you must worship God and not man"
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2006, 05:40:58 PM »

Promotion?? Promotion?? When did I ever promote anything??





It is true that many discouraged Bob Marley from being baptized into the the EOTC, because of this he was baptized in new York and not Jamaica. To say that he ever denied the divinity of Haile Selassie, would be wrong, because there is no evidence to show whether or not he did.ÂÂ  And many rastas are baptized into the EOTC, without denying the divinity of HIM.





One
Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam
To say Bob Marley did not deny the divinity of Haile Selassie is patently false. He did so when he put on Christ at his baptism.
 Does the EOTC allow it`s members to worship Christ and Selassie? If so, they are heretics and schismatic and clearly outside of either EO or OO and thus NOT Orthodox.
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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2006, 09:27:40 AM »

Blessed Love,

The official position of the EOTC outside the Caribbean is expressly against "emperor worship".  I have heard a rumour that a former patriarch did support how we read the bible, not confirmed.  I do know several Rastas that are baptized EOTC WITHOUT denying HIM divinity.  I am not responsible for the policy of the EOTC with regards to this.

If you have any recordings of Bob and Bob alone sayiong that he doesn't see HIM as divine, then bring it forward.  Otherwise, you can't prove anything.

One
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« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2006, 09:52:31 AM »

Rastaman,

Not knowing too much about your culture I appologize if I say anything objectionable.  But I think that your experiences with Rastaman culture/religion have been in a possibly unique way.  Or even in a possibly "good" way.  Others have experienced the bad, and possibly "true"/"truth" of Rastaman culture. 

I think that Mo the Ethio has presented good points about historical factors in Rastaman culture, its beginings, and faults with its "theological" ideas.  You still have not addressed these to anyones satisfaction.  If you could sit down and maybe address his points, one by one, I think we would all benefit and dialogue might be more reasonable.....just a thought...
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2006, 05:21:29 PM »

Fiqir Bandinet,

Let’s try it this way.  Mo the Ethio has made the following points:

 1.  The RasTafari movement has used death threats against members who have “renounced the heresy” of HIM Haile Selassie as the Second Coming of Christ.
 2.  Fear and intimidation are used to entrap members into the movement, and to prevent them from leaving.
 3.  Bob Marley “converted” to Orthodoxy against threats of harm and death, and denied the divinity of His Imperial Majesty.
 4.  Haile Selassie did not appoint representatives and did not wish for all people to come to HIM.
 5.  Racism is rampant among all houses of RasTafarI and indeed RasTafarI is nothing more than Black Nationalism.


My response:
 1.  It is not unheard of for death threats to present within the movement.  I know of one individual who has had several such tactics used against him, and in addition he has had his room ransacked and has lost several computers due to intentional computer viruses directed at him.  This is all because of the work he does in the movement, it is an internal matter, and is not related in anyway to disagreements on theology.  On the other hand, what about Dominica in the 1980s, when the Rastafari community was labeled against a pervasive influence in society.  We had our civil rights stripped from us, and if I had been there, anyone could walk up to me, in public, put a bullet in my head, and their action would be entirely within the law.  20 years ago! Or what about the Rastas in England, where several have been assaulted and beaten up, to the point where they had dreadlocks RIPPED out of their head.
 2.  This answer continues from the one above as well.  The former leader (he passed on last year) of the largest and most organized section of the RasTafari movement, the Twelve Tribes of Israel, stated on national Jamaican radio, in 1997, that Haile Selassie was not God.  I fail to see how it is possible for a movement to use fear and intimidation tactics against those of its members who believe something, which its largest division advocates as truth.
 3.  Bob Marley, was baptized into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.  Your argument is based on the fact that the EOTC requires Rastas to deny the divinity of HIM Haile Selassie.  I know, and have spoken to at least 4 members of the EOTC who believe His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie is divine and are active members of the EOTC.  If they agree, I can provide you or anyone else who asks with their contact information, in private.  You have nothing from Bob Marley, no recordings, no quotes, no written statements to state anything other than he thought that Haile Selassie was divine.  Two people have stated that Bob Marley “converted” — one, His Holiness Abuna Yeshaq, whose personal mission it was to show Rastas the “truth”, and one of Bob Marley’s backup singers.
Yet what you failed to address was the following: HIM Haile Selassie corresponded personally with Bob Marley, the Bob Marley was given Haile Selassie’s Lion of Judah ring after the emperor passed on, and that the Imperial Family of Ethiopia has openly participated and spoken at events held by the Rasta movement.  Indeed, they even defended the Rasta movement’s right to use the images and words of Him without infringing on any copyright.

(to be continued)

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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2006, 11:55:13 PM »

There was another discussion:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=6965.0

God bless.

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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2006, 12:23:21 AM »

Give thanks for that Mina.

I do know the Ras who started that thread.  I do not think he will be back, therefore if idren wish, they may highlight questions left unaddressed by him - or me for that matter.

Over the next few days, I will be going over that thread, hopefully I can clear things up.

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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2006, 01:48:25 AM »

I don't quite know what your point is for trying to "clear things up".  By all means, elaborate on your beliefs, but are you expecting us to all of a sudden say "oh! you're right! ok, time to be rastafarian!"?

They are not compatiable with the teachings of the Orthodox Church, and I don't see what your goal is here.
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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2006, 03:56:19 AM »

Rastaman,

There are two issues that need to be addressed here:

1)   The fact there can be no reconciliation whatsoever between Orthodox Dogmatic Theology and Rastafarian emperor/man-worship.
2)   An honest interpretation of HIM’s response to the Rastafarian perception of him, and hence his integrity as an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian.

The second clause of the second point is fundamental, because despite the fact I believe HIM to have been an honest and faithful Oriental Orthodox Christian who would never have thought of blasphemously attempting to usurp the glory and honour due to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit alone, you must realise that HIM is not the arbiter of Truth; rather, the Orthodox Church is, and hence the Orthodox Church dictates the standard by which HIM is to be measured. In this respect, by virtue of 1), even if we were to assume for arguments sake that HIM ever gave any sort of a hint of approval of the Rastafarian conception of him, he would necessarily have to be deemed a liar.

In your first post on this forum you stated:

Quote
I do not want to abandon Rastafari, but the teachings of my God and King point me towards Orthodoxy.

I urge you to consider in honesty and humility all that has been said to you thus far, and to respond positively to your divinely inspired inclinations towards Orthodoxy. Realise however, that an honest embrace of Orthodoxy will necessitate the rejection and disavowel of your Rastafarian doctrine; they’re mutually exclusive. You have suggested elsewhere that you personally know of certain individuals who were baptised into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church whilst maintaining their allegiance to HIM as to a god. I have no reason to doubt the honesty of your personal account, but allow me to say quite bluntly that these individuals are living a lie, and they have blasphemed their Orthodox baptism. Their culpability may be increased or reduced relative to their intent, knowledge and will, as well as the role the Ethiopian priests in question may have played in allowing such a misfortunate incident to occur, but the ultimate truth and reality is that the Sacrament of Baptism is the putting on of Christ and hence an embrace of His Truth that is encompassed by the Orthodox Church; The Truth that directly opposes the Rastafarian conception of HIM.

Quote
By tradition, Ethiopian rulers, take the title of "King of Kings, Lord of lords, Conquering Lion of the tribe of Judah" as the titles of the throne;


Ethiopian emperors inherit the above title by tradition (as you admit). It thus signifies nothing with respect to their ontological nature or their individual personal identity, but rather their earthly imperial position/function. To say that it does is to misunderstand Ethiopian culture; the very misunderstanding HIM expressly appointed Archbishop Yeshaq to correct upon his visit to Jamaica.

Quote
these are the same titles given to the returned Messiah.

So what? What kind of logic or reason would compel you to draw the outlandish conclusion that the emperors of Ethiopia must therefore be re-incarnations of Christ?

Furthermore, how can HIM be the “returned Messiah” when a) he spoke of the Crucified Messiah as an independent person to whom his own faith was due, b) he died, whereas the Resurrected Messiah is immortal, even in His Humanity, and c) he fulfilled nothing that even closely resembled the Bibilically depicted return of the Messiah as understood within the Tradition of the Orthodox Church.

Quote
The English translation of the name Haile Selassie is Power/Might of the Trinity.

Most, if not all, Ethiopian Orthodox Christians bear such names as a symbolic honour of their Christian Faith. The Jews likewise bore such symbolic names indicative of a certain attribute or characteristic of God. HIM is merely honouring the Holy Trinity by adopting it as his name.

Quote
He showed the people that he is a man… Selassie I was born of mother and father… he never said that a human cannot be God.

Notice the context of HIM’s response; he is asserting that he is a mere man and mortal in response to the Rastafarian conception of him. Evidently therefore, considering his words in the immediate context of the interview itself, he is asserting himself as a man and mortal contrary to the Rastafarian view, thus implicitly yet clearly denying the Rastafarian conception of him by virtue of their false divine characterisation of him, regardless of any admission on their behalf of his simultaneous humanity. He is thus essentially claiming mere humanity.

This is the only honest way to interpret HIM’s words. Listen to the Scriptures that HIM honoured: “Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground” (Psalm. 146:3-4)

Onto the more important issue however, which relates to point 1) as stipulated in my introduction. Can a human be God according to Orthodox Christianity? Well, certainly not in the sense that you describe:

Quote
I and I can be God, but only by being One with Jah. I and I can't be God separate from Jah, as two gods. But I and I can only join with Jah, to be One with him, as One God.

According to Orthodox Christianity, we have the potential to achieve the likeness of God by His Grace, but we certainly cannot be as He is by nature. There are only Three Persons that co-exist in the One existence of God, and that thus share the Divine Nature: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Period.

We do not become fourth, fifth, sixth, and so on members of the Godhead. To believe so is utterly incompatible with dogmatic Orthodox Theology. It is not open for question or debate. You must make your choice. Either you recognise the One True God, and submit to Him through His Holy Church and reap the benefits of this: being in His Image and Likeness, or you keep worshipping a mere man who expressly denied the perception you maintain of him in the false hope that Satan himself once held i.e. the hope to become God in nature, and reap the consequences of this: eternal death.

Quote
This statement shows I that no man, not even the Son of Man Jesus Christ, emanated (or came out) from God. Jesus Christ was born of his mother Mary, and by his destiny and livity became One with Jah.

This one statement involves principles pertinent to heresies anathematised by each and every one of the Three Ecumenical Councils of the Oriental Orthodox Church. The metaphysical Person and hence fundamental identity of the historical Christ, The Word, pre-existed His Incarnation eternally as God. As we say in the Nicaean Creed, He was “begotten of the Father before all ages…God out of God...” Christ was eternally One with the Father, as the Gospel of St John says: “In the beginning was The Word, and The Word was with God, and The Word was God”; in other words: before the existence of time (and hence in eternity), the Word co-existed with the Father, yet was One with the Father for He shared in His Divinity.

Christ did not become One with the Father; He eternally was and is One with the Father.

Simply put, no one can "become" God; such a notion directly contradicts a fundamental attribute of God's very nature: eternal immutability.

Quote
They made the excuse that because Jesus was born differently, that it was possible for him to live this way, but not for us, because we are born from mother and father.

According to Orthodox Dogma, the reason Christ was sinless was by virtue of the union between His Divinity and Humanity, and this very union itself was only possible according to a Virgin birth. Thus, the above statement makes very little sense within the framework of Orthodox doctrine.

Quote
The official position of the EOTC outside the Caribbean is expressly against "emperor worship".


The official position of the EOTC is not geographically relative. The Dogma of the Church as expressed through her Tradition which encompasses the Scriptures, the Fathers, and the Councils, expressly denies the worship of anything or anyone other than The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The official position of the EOC on dogmatic issues can be read upon at the following link:

http://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/english/maindoctrines/thefivemysteries.htm







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« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2006, 03:59:18 AM »

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but are you expecting us to all of a sudden say "oh! you're right! ok, time to be rastafarian!"?

I don't think his aim is to convert anyone. I think he genuinly seeks Orthodoxy but is trying to find some middle-road whereby he can become Orthodox yet maintain elements of his Rastafarian faith. As my above post has attempted to prove, that is an impossible thing to do (that is, if one seeks to live an honest Orthodox life).
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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2006, 08:54:33 AM »

Just as with the last time a similar thread like this was started, I find the subject fascinating.

EA,

    As usual, a brilliant and very informative response.  Thank you.

Rastaman,

    By all means, keep up the debate, it is intriguing.
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« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2006, 11:53:28 PM »

Fiqir Bandinet,

Excellent post EA.

I won't respond to your comments to the statement I reposted from my bredrin.  I have heard the English translation of Haile Selassie's response has been called into question.  I do not wish to remark on this allegation, I don't know Amharic, and would have a biased opinion anyways.  Until a fluent Amharic speaker that is neither Rasta nor Christian Orthodox can provide commentary, I will reserve any judgments.

Because this has taken a bit longer to write then I wanted, I am hoping to get to your other comments tomorrow.

I do wish to clarify one thing.  For many outsiders to the movement, they fall into this trap of generalizing what we believe.  Rastafari does not work like Orthodoxy for the exact reasons that Mo the Ethio outlined - we do not have the same organizational structure.  We lack the organized churches, dioceses, archdioceses, bishops, deacons, patriarchs etc. etc.  In rare cases we do have elders that are highly raspected, but they have no "authority" per se, they are simply those idren who have given enough of their life to the movement, living the livity.

Thus here it is, my personal Statement of Belief:
InI hold that His Most Imperial Majesty, Janhoy Qedamawi Hayle Silase, Negus Nagast, Negus Nagast, Moa Anbesa Ze'imnegede Yehuda, Sehumi Igzeeabhier is the Almighty.  He is the 225th representative of the Solomonid Dynasty in Ethiopia.  This can be derived from the 2nd Article of the 1955 Constitution of Ethiopia: “The Imperial Dignity shall remain perpetually attached to the line of Haile Sellassie I, descendant of King Sahle Sellassie, whose line descends without interruption from the dynasty of Menelik I, son of the Queen of Ethiopia, the Queen of Sheba, and King Solomon of Jerusalem.”  Additionally, the chapters 24-32 of the Kebra Nagast, “The Glory of the Kings” support this claim. The Kebra Nagast also relates how the son of Solomon, Menelik I, brought the Ark of the Covenant to Ethiopia (ch. 45, 46, 48).  The accounts detailed in the Kebra Nagast are fully supported as being historically accurate by the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church under Abuna Paulos — as well as the Patriarchate in Exile under Abuna Merkorios.  The Imperial Family of Ethiopia is also in total agreement and support of these claims.
The Davidic Covenant has revealed the Imperial Dynasty of Ethiopia as the rightful rulers of JAH Creation.  (2nd Samuel 7, 2nd Chronicles 13:5,8).  As such the returned Messiah is of the “root of David” (Rev. 5:5).  Thus the Messiah of Revelation MUST be from the line of Menelik.  In addition, by tradition the Emperors of Ethiopia bear the titles identical to that of the Messiah (Rev. 2-5:5; Rev. 19:16).
The baptismal name of Ras Tafari Makonnen, Haile Selassie, translates to Power of the Trinity.  This baptismal name has only been bestowed on ONE person in the history of the EOTC.  There is only one Power of the Trinity, that is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, One Triune God.

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« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2006, 11:54:46 PM »

FULL STOP

The following has not been confirmed from any source outside the Rastafari movement.

“Queer tales began to circulate about Tafari’s boyhood, the most notable concerning his supposed ability to speak to animals. During his youth it was claimed he had, on several occasions been seen conversing in the bush with leopards and lions, the fierce jungle beast becoming docile at his feet.
Further, it was said that as a young student, Tafari was quite bright, competent at his lessons, but that he had truly astounded the priest with the depth of his knowledge concerning religious and mystical matters not only could he quote freely from the book of Kufale, the book of Inoch, The Shepherd of Hermas, Judith, Ecclesiasticus, Tobit, The Matshafa Berhan (Book of Light), The Sixth and Sevent books of Moses, the book of Eden (Secretly deleted from Genesis during the dark ages), all thirty-one books of the Hebrew Bible, the twenty-one Canonical books of the New Testament but numerous Apocryphal and Pseudepigrahic books.
One priest asked Tafari where he got his knowledge. Tafari replied that much of it had come to him at the moment of his baptism, conducted according to tradition on the fortieth day of his life. The priest who presided at the ceremony had opened Tafari’s eyes with the first touch of holy Chrism that everything that ensued was a comprehensible to the infant as if he had been an adult. The priest pronounced his surname he remembered and next his baptismal name and then he blew softly in Tafari’s face to drive off the evil spirits. At that instant Tafari claimed he felt himself enveloped by a golden glow and as the priest began to anoint him, water touching his forehead, breast, shoulder and all of the other thirty-seven prescribed places, he felt his knowledge increase filling him up like a vessel and endowing him with a great sense of clarity about creation and the final purpose of man.
When the birds and the beasts and even the insects began to greet him and speak to him, reminding him of what he already knew, Tafari replied, "Which was the first creature to speak to him".
Tafari requested a sheet of paper and some pastels and began to draw with extraordinary facility, a picture of a bird. It resembled a dove, but with exotic, multicoloured plumage. The priest was about to ask Tafari what sort of bird it was when he was dumbfounded as it flew out through the nearby window disappearing into the sky.
The chief priest arranged meetings with him to question and perhaps catch him with what he supposed might be blasphemous mischief or pagan magic.
At one of these meetings Rastafari is said to have made it plain that he was well acquainted with the rare manuscripts of Abba Aragaive and the other Coptic monks known as the Nine "Saints", who entered Ethiopia in 480 A.D. and founded the first monasteries in Tigre province. He also revealed that he was acquainted with the occult applications of Urim and thummin and the Mezuzah as well as the use of the magic word Gematria and Notarilon in Egypt Necromancy and also of the magical names writing of Gilgamesh. The pagan rituals surrounded the worship of Isis of the serpent Arwe and of the Abyssinian Gods of earth (Meder) sea, (Beher) and war (Mahrem) as well as the Arcana of astrology and numerology. but most importantly Tafari exhibited to the priest his understanding of the central messages in the Egyptian book of the dead and the Egyptian book of two ways.
At one point an old abmnet (Abbot) allegedly asked to examine Tafari s palms. he saw that there were Shgmata there and the lifeline back upon itself in an emblem of infinity, Tafari whispered a word in the abbot’s ear and all colour drained from the old man s face. He left the room apparently in shock, refusing to return or to speak with his colleagues.
Tafari addressed a monk who served in the Cathedral of Azum, where the ark is kept. Tafari described to him in Kushed the Kedusta Kedussan, the Holy of Holies or inner sanctum where the Tabot - The Ark - is kept and recited various inscriptions written upon it. Close to fainting with the shock of what Tafari was disclosing, the monk is said to have covered his ears to shut out these blasphemous revelations and he and the rest of the priests hurriedly dispersed.
Later they made a solemn pact among themselves to do everything within their means to keep the young Tafari from ever gaining power in the land as he was considered too dangerous, dangerous beyond belief."

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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2006, 10:10:42 AM »

Quote
The Davidic Covenant

You know, for a minute there I was like "how the heck did a serbian guy end up in Ethiopia?"  and then I realized that it was talking about DAVID.  Like the OT guy.... Wink 

A few questions: 

Quote
The Davidic Covenant has revealed the Imperial Dynasty of Ethiopia as the rightful rulers of JAH Creation.  (2nd Samuel 7, 2nd Chronicles 13:5,8).  As such the returned Messiah is of the “root of David” (Rev. 5:5).  Thus the Messiah of Revelation MUST be from the line of Menelik.

I'm sorry maybe my Bible isn't the same as yours (NKJ) but in those verses I didn't see any kind of Imperial Dynasty of Ethiopia, nor are they righful rulers of JAH creation.  In fact, JAH creation isn't in there at all...so i'm not sure what you're talking about here. 

The root is not the same as the the actual tree my friend.  Are you basing your assumptions on a historically shaky line of OT figures to the present?  Combined with EXTREMELY unorthodox interpretation?  Cuz you know, Arch-heretics and Gnostics did that too....
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2006, 11:06:45 AM »

Brate, if he were one of ours, he would have been Давидовиц.  Tongue
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« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2006, 12:33:09 AM »

serb1389, could you just clarify the second part of your post.

How I read it is that you are saying that the Bible dooes not support the claim that the Imperial Dynasty of Ethiopia is descended from King Solomon and holds the Davidic Covenant??

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« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2006, 01:13:47 AM »

FULL STOP

The following has not been confirmed from any source outside the Rastafari movement.

“Queer tales began to circulate about Tafari’s boyhood, the most notable concerning his supposed ability to speak to animals. During his youth it was claimed he had, on several occasions been seen conversing in the bush with leopards and lions, the fierce jungle beast becoming docile at his feet.
Further, it was said that as a young student, Tafari was quite bright, competent at his lessons, but that he had truly astounded the priest with the depth of his knowledge concerning religious and mystical matters not only could he quote freely from the book of Kufale, the book of Inoch, The Shepherd of Hermas, Judith, Ecclesiasticus, Tobit, The Matshafa Berhan (Book of Light), The Sixth and Sevent books of Moses, the book of Eden (Secretly deleted from Genesis during the dark ages), all thirty-one books of the Hebrew Bible, the twenty-one Canonical books of the New Testament but numerous Apocryphal and Pseudepigrahic books.
One priest asked Tafari where he got his knowledge. Tafari replied that much of it had come to him at the moment of his baptism, conducted according to tradition on the fortieth day of his life. The priest who presided at the ceremony had opened Tafari’s eyes with the first touch of holy Chrism that everything that ensued was a comprehensible to the infant as if he had been an adult. The priest pronounced his surname he remembered and next his baptismal name and then he blew softly in Tafari’s face to drive off the evil spirits. At that instant Tafari claimed he felt himself enveloped by a golden glow and as the priest began to anoint him, water touching his forehead, breast, shoulder and all of the other thirty-seven prescribed places, he felt his knowledge increase filling him up like a vessel and endowing him with a great sense of clarity about creation and the final purpose of man.
When the birds and the beasts and even the insects began to greet him and speak to him, reminding him of what he already knew, Tafari replied, "Which was the first creature to speak to him".
Tafari requested a sheet of paper and some pastels and began to draw with extraordinary facility, a picture of a bird. It resembled a dove, but with exotic, multicoloured plumage. The priest was about to ask Tafari what sort of bird it was when he was dumbfounded as it flew out through the nearby window disappearing into the sky.
The chief priest arranged meetings with him to question and perhaps catch him with what he supposed might be blasphemous mischief or pagan magic.
At one of these meetings Rastafari is said to have made it plain that he was well acquainted with the rare manuscripts of Abba Aragaive and the other Coptic monks known as the Nine "Saints", who entered Ethiopia in 480 A.D. and founded the first monasteries in Tigre province. He also revealed that he was acquainted with the occult applications of Urim and thummin and the Mezuzah as well as the use of the magic word Gematria and Notarilon in Egypt Necromancy and also of the magical names writing of Gilgamesh. The pagan rituals surrounded the worship of Isis of the serpent Arwe and of the Abyssinian Gods of earth (Meder) sea, (Beher) and war (Mahrem) as well as the Arcana of astrology and numerology. but most importantly Tafari exhibited to the priest his understanding of the central messages in the Egyptian book of the dead and the Egyptian book of two ways.
At one point an old abmnet (Abbot) allegedly asked to examine Tafari s palms. he saw that there were Shgmata there and the lifeline back upon itself in an emblem of infinity, Tafari whispered a word in the abbot’s ear and all colour drained from the old man s face. He left the room apparently in shock, refusing to return or to speak with his colleagues.
Tafari addressed a monk who served in the Cathedral of Azum, where the ark is kept. Tafari described to him in Kushed the Kedusta Kedussan, the Holy of Holies or inner sanctum where the Tabot - The Ark - is kept and recited various inscriptions written upon it. Close to fainting with the shock of what Tafari was disclosing, the monk is said to have covered his ears to shut out these blasphemous revelations and he and the rest of the priests hurriedly dispersed.
Later they made a solemn pact among themselves to do everything within their means to keep the young Tafari from ever gaining power in the land as he was considered too dangerous, dangerous beyond belief."

One
Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam
OK...so this has been confirmed from sources WITHIN the Rasta movement. These are clearly creditable . Roll Eyes NOT!!
Where do you get this drivel ? The Da Vinci code carries more weight than this sorry ass crap.
If you you going to base your arguement on some fairytale ,I am not going to waste my time addressing your claims .
Do your homework then get back with me. Then it`s going to be time to get on the bus ...because I`m going to take you school.           
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« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2006, 02:31:12 AM »

4.ÂÂ  Haile Selassie did not appoint representatives and did not wish for all people to come to HIM.

Of course not! He flatly denied being the Messiah in the first place!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2006, 07:33:38 PM »

Brate, if he were one of ours, he would have been Давидовиц.  Tongue

Hehehehhe...for those of you that dont know, in latin Давидовиц is Davidovic (Did you mispell that last letter SS99?), but the last c being pronounced ts. Now what caught my eye is that Davidovits was a real person. He explains how the pyramids of egypt were built, with a very intriguing theory  Roll Eyes

With regards to this topic, please do not be offended and dont offend Rastaman. I have been in contact with him and his interest in Orthodoxy is genuine. He is not "advertising" rastafari beliefs, the man's just asking some questions  Smiley

Although I will not partake much in this topic, I do wish to also agree that for those rastas who were baptized, they are lying to the faith, possibly both faiths. I also find it very hard to be something in between, but Rastaman, didnt you mention something over MSN about a EOTC
that broke off and mixed into Rastafarianism somehow?

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« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2006, 09:52:08 PM »

A devoutly Orthodox Christian ruler who is now worshipped as a false messiah? I don't mean to offend anyone, but "JAH Rastafari" must be shedding tears in Heaven over this.
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« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2006, 01:11:50 AM »

Dear Rastaman,

You have to get a grip of reality.  HIM was a very devout Orthodox Christian and served Christ and the Church very well, especially in trying to bring about more union between Oriental Orthodox churches.  He was also a great friend to the beloved saint Pope Abba Kyrillos VI, and many other Orthodox patriarchs.  He clearly denied being the Christ or God in a recorded interview for everyone to listen.  He sent HH Abune Yesehaq to convert Rastas like yourself who are deceived into believing that HIM is either God or Christ reincarnated.

Trust me, dear friend.  I understand you are devoted to HIM, but HIM does not want you to be devoted to him in that manner.  You can ask to pray for him as he prays for us all, but he was a Christian and a normal human being in the grace of God like anyone else.  When Christ was asked when He was God, He never said "No."  He never lied, He never feared to even give Himself the title the "I AM."  He never stopped people from worshipping Him.  HIM Haille Sellasie denied being Christ, denied being the "I AM," and denied being worshipped to.  He served the Orthodox Church, and in the Church, we believe there is only one Christ who came once before and will come again on Judgment Day.  To him or her that believes otherwise, they are not only un-Orthodox, but not even Christian.

God bless you dear friend.

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« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2006, 01:23:57 AM »

Of course not! He flatly denied being the Messiah in the first place!ÂÂ  Roll Eyes

So, that's it.  He flatly denied being the Messiah.  In that case, I think a couple thousand homeless in New York City alone must be Christ returned, I mean they claim that they are.  No, wait that's not right.

So if he claims to be the Messiah, he isn't, and if he does claim he isn't.  Having the lineage isnt enough, having the titles isnt enough, having the Sceptre isnt enough, having the Ark of the Covenant isnt enough, being a Defender of the Orthodox Faith isnt enough.  So WHAT is enough??

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." - 1 Thes. 5:2

Iyesos was the Messiah, and said He was.  How many people have heard, are hearing, and will hear the Word, and still not sight up the Truth??

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." - John 20:29

Must you "see in his hands the print of the nails, and put [your] finger into the print of the nails, and thrust [your] hand into his side" to believe??

"Today man sees all his hopes and aspirations crumbling before him. He is perplexed and knows not whither he is drifting. But he must realise that the Bible is his refuge, and the rallying point for all humanity. In it man will find the solution of his present difficulties and guidance for his future action, and unless he accepts with clear conscience the Bible and its great Message, he cannot hope for salvation. For my part I glory in the Bible." - HIM Haile Selassie

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« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2006, 01:46:18 AM »

So, that's it.  He flatly denied being the Messiah.

I could not resist posting the following quotes from "The Life of Brian" at this point:

Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!

*******

Brian: I am NOT the Messiah!
Arthur: I say you are Lord, and I should know. I've followed a few.

*******


Brian's mother: He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!

*******

Brian: Please, please, please listen! I've got one or two things to say.
The Crowd: (in unison) Tell us! Tell us both of them!
Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for your selves! You're ALL individuals!
The Crowd: (in unison) Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd: (in unison) Yes, we ARE all different!
Man in crowd: I'm not...
The Crowd: (in unison) Sshhhh!
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« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2006, 03:18:25 AM »

Rastaman

You are trying to argue very schismatic and non-Christian interpretations of scripture to the various Orthodox Christians here to explain your ideas and beliefs about Ethiopia and its royal family past and present (Though presently in exile in the United States).

What are you trying to achieve?

I am ashamed at your lack of knowledge about Ethiopian history, the Bible, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the teachings of the holy fathers of the one universal and apostolic Church.

I am more ashamed that you are posting deranged and distorted views about Ethiopian Clergy and faithful.

As an Ethiopian and a baptized member of the Holy Orthodox Church of which I am a reader; I can assure you that we all pray for the rastas.

The Ethiopian Church has much to offer you and anyone else who wishes to find remission of sin and salvation through Christ.

You can posses this great gift which was prepared for you and the whole world by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ on the Cross.

You DO NOT know the way.....

You and all of us must be shown, taught and guided into All Truth which is Christ Jesus.

NOT LIES.

Remember the great words of the Ethiopian Eunuch to St. Phillip..."How can I know unless some man would show me". This Ethiopian was Baptised the same day St. Phillip preached to him Christ the only true Messiah. (Read Acts Chapter 28).

You and all of us must be shown.

You are not in the light of Christ at this time. You are weighed down with the struggle to try to find your true heritage and culture which was barbarically taken away from you and tens of millions of other Africans and African descents whom you have descended from.

It is hard for many if not most Europeans and European descent today to truly understand this.

The European slave trade and rape of Africa is the greatest level of inhumanity to date perpetuated on a group of people by another group of people. It is in surpassable. But in Christ it is forgiveable.

The Godlessness of the people who instituted the largest forced migration of human beings ever will be judged by God. And that day is coming when not only them; but all of us will be judged according to our deeds.

Will you be ready on this day?

Remember this day may be the day you read this post.

Its is sad that African Americans and the African descent of the Caribean have lost so much of who they are. You all (we all) come from a very distant and vast heritage. Finding Ethiopia is important for you in this matter.

Ethiopia is a free country, A Christian country, a true empire. She has never been conquered by the marauding and the greedy that vanquished the continent. She was saved from this crime against humanity. The Lord Kept her so that she might be kept for you and others like you. Free of western philosophy. But rich in indigenous African ideology and philosophy; particularly as it relates to her understanding of God.

It is therefore a place of great significance for you and all Africans and African descent peoples. Not just for being spared of the European slaughter of the the continent; but also and most importantly her eternal relationship with the Lord. She is blessed.

God called Ethiopian His Chosen:
Read Amos:
"Aren't you the same unto Me as the children of the Ethiopian are o Israel".

The Scripture speaks much about Ethiopia from Genesis to Revelations.

So you are looking for the right place if Ethiopia is your search.

BUT KNOW THIS...ETHIOPIA IS WHAT SHE IS BECAUSE OF HER RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.

This relationship goes back to old testament and continued unchanged to this day. The lineage is a spiritual heritage....NOT THE HISTORY OR THE PEDIGREE OF KINGS persay.

You must take your spiritual heritage seriously. Learn the Truth.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is the True Church of the Apostles like all other Orthodox communities.

The Former Emperor Of Ethiopia Hiali Sallassie made great efforts to provide for Africans and African descent peoples the beauty and vitality of Orthodoxy. He taught "to embrace Ethiopia is to love God our creator...and your self". His hope was to lift all Africans and African descent people out of the muck-and-Myer of western concepts of Africans (black people) and African history and also the degenerative and destructive power of the protestant religion.

For his love for God he served his people.

Why then do you serve him as a God when he 'served God himself'?

I will not say more to you on this...

It is time for you to leave your old life and find a new richer life in Christ.

If you believe you can do this than you have hope...In Christ.
 
If you find that you are happy the way you are and thus refuse to let your rebellious past go than you are for now hopeless.

And the hopeless can worship any God they want even if its a man, a dog, a stone, whatever. Hopeless is hopeless...period. The hopeless can read the Holy bible upside down or sideways....it is of no matter.

for example...remember the slave masters of early America used the bible to support their behavior toward Africans in the European slave trade which financed America. Of course we can look back today and see clearly how comically silly these people were. This is an example of what happens when you are more concerned what you prefer instead of what Christ teaches and provided. The Bible effectively becomes an abstact art form instead of the absolute truth; up for individual interpretation. This is the basis of the protestant religion....hopelessness in plain English.

If you find you are ready to except that you are a sinner and that you are in rebellion against God and are now willing to repent (truly) of all your current ways; than seek the Orthodox Church. If you prefer the Ethiopian Church than seek it..ON ITS TERMS...NOT YOURS. The Orthodox mind rejects free thinking and individual interpretation of scripture or established Orthodox doctrine.

You will find comfort with the Holy Spirit dwelling in you daily as you pray and worship Christ. You find safety in Christs promise for His chosen people. You will find confidence in your earthly walk knowing who you are when you stand in the Ethiopian liturgical service and smell the waft of Ethiopian frankincense, the syncopation of the Kebero and Tsinotsil and the chanting of the priests. All with the added bonus of traditional African heritage which is yours. A heritage that is African without loosing its Christian Orthodoxy in anyway.

I hope know that you have already been called out from the rasta religion.

You have been called to Christ alone.

You must make the choice.

If  you do not choose Christ; standing in Ethiopian Churches is just a waste of time for you.

Selam leku lekemew
(Peace from me to you...in Geez)

Amde
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« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2006, 07:09:02 AM »

Rastaman,

Quote
So if he claims to be the Messiah, he isn't

If he so claimed to be the Messiah, he would necessarily have to be deemed a liar according to the dogmatic Tradition of the Orthodox Church. His life as an Orthodox Christian would be deemed a lie, and he would not be worthy of even human respect let alone divine adoration.

The fact of the matter however, is that HIM never claimed to be the Messiah. He expressed his faith in Christ, the true Messiah, and lived his life in submission to Him. If only Rastafarians would follow his example.

Quote
In that case, I think a couple thousand homeless in New York City alone must be Christ returned, I mean they claim that they are.

I think you’ve missed the point. The point is not that every person who claims to be the Messiah is necessarily so; the very converse of this (i.e. that not every person who claims to be the Messiah is necessarily so) was in fact the very argument implied when I argued that even assuming for argument's sake that HIM claimed to be the returned Messiah, he would have to be deemed as much a liar as any of those homeless nutcases that you mention.

Quote
Having the lineage isnt enough

Having a lineage per se (especially a lineage of both father and mother) disqualifies him from being the returned Messiah, for the Messiah was, and consequently could only have been, born once, eternally of the Father, and in time of the Virgin Mary. The humanity of the Messiah is fully developed, inextricable from His person, and incorruptible. As such, He is neither capable of (1) another earthly birth, nor of (2) an earthly death.

(1): He is incapable of another earthly birth, for according to the dogmatic Tradition expressed through the Third Ecumenical Council of Ephesus 431, His fully developed humanity is an intrinsic aspect of His very being; it is inseparable from His divinity. The very idea of Him discarding His humanity to “re-incarnate”, so to speak, through another body and hence live through another birth, childhood, adolescence, and adulthood, is simply illogical and impossible.

The Resurrected and Incorruptible Messiah explicitly stated that His Second Coming will be a descent from the heavens, awesome and full of glory:

"I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." (Matthew 26:64)

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:30)

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done." (Matthew 16:27)

""When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." (Matthew 25:31-33)

(Notice that the last two verses in the above selection also indicate another aspect of the Messiah's Second Coming: the Judgment of all nations. HIM did not judge anyone, but submitted to the Judge of his soul and all souls: the Lord Christ.)

Furthermore, at His first coming, the Messiah was incarnate of a Virgin by necessity, as opposed to by choice. He could not have an earthly father by virtue of the fact His person was not created or produced, but rather eternally begotten of the Father.

(2): Finally, He is incapable of another earthly death, for according to the dogmatic Tradition of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as shared by all Orthodox Churches, Christ abolished death by His death, and sanctified the humanity He assumed such that it was no longer naturally susceptible to death; it was renewed; it was incorruptible, and hence, it was by very nature immortal.

Quote
having the titles isnt enough

As I already noted, the titles are symbolic; they’re not suggestive of his ontological nature or personal identity. You are misunderstanding Ethiopian culture, undoubtedly influenced by Jewish culture, when you attempt to argue that such titles indicate anything more than the mere honour and respect of the subject of those very titles. That is why HIM specifically assigned Fr. Yeshaq to educate the Jamaicans who were misinterpreting Ethiopian culture.

Quote
having the Sceptre isnt enough

Having earthly rule means nothing. The Messiah did not establish an earthly Kingdom in his first coming, nor did He ever indicate that He planned to at His second coming (this belief is in fact anathematised as heresy by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church). We understand the Messiah’s Kingly function in a cosmic and spiritual sense.

Quote
having the Ark of the Covenant isnt enough

Having the Ark of the Covenant doesn’t mean anything, especially within the context of the New Testament era.

Quote
being a Defender of the Orthodox Faith isnt enough.


Being a defender of the Orthodox Faith doesn’t make one a Messiah. The Oriental Orthodox Church has many defenders: St Athanasios, St Cyril, St Severus. Where do you derive the link between Messiahship and being a defender of the Faith? It doesn’t exist my friend.

Ironically, the most HIM has done to qualify as a defender of the Orthodox Faith, is to deny the claims of the Rastafarians and to appoint Fr. Yeshaq to correct their misunderstandings.

Quote
"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night." - 1 Thes. 5:2

You’re taking this out of context. The verse is not indicating that the Messiah’s return will go unnoticed, but rather that it will be sudden and unexpected. This is clearly indicated in the proceeding verses:

“While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.” (verses 3-4)

It is also clearly implied in other passages accounting for the same theme in question:

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” (Matthew 24:42-44).

Quote
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." - John 20:29

Must you "see in his hands the print of the nails, and put [your] finger into the print of the nails, and thrust [your] hand into his side" to believe??

Your very reductionist interpretation of this verse backfires upon you in light of your comments regarding the crazy homeless people who claim to be the Messiah. If Christ is advocating strictly blind faith per se, then why not direct your blind faith to one of those crazy homeless persons who claim to be the Messiah? The very reason you have discriminated between blind faith in a homeless guy and blind faith in HIM is because you believe there to be a rational basis to accepting HIM as the returned Messiah (and hence your faith is not strictly blind), else we wouldn’t even be having this very discussion which primarily revolves around the invalidity and irrationality of the very reasons you are attempting to argue in support of your case.

You need to make a choice Rastaman; I can't stress this enough: either you give up your Rastafarian faith and submit to the very salvific faith experienced by HIM; that is, faith in the Resurrected Christ who sits at the right hand of His Father till His Second Coming, which, as opposed to the reign of HIM, shall be awesome and full of glory, or you continue to worship a dead man.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2006, 07:17:59 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2006, 01:32:05 PM »




You are weighed down with the struggle to try to find your true heritage and culture which was barbarically taken away from you and tens of millions of other Africans and African descents whom you have descended from.










   ummm....Rastaman is a white dude.
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« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2006, 04:56:42 PM »

Speaking of titles, we give practically similar titles to our bishops and popes.  That doesn't make them Christ, but rather imitators of Christ.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2006, 08:54:38 PM »

Mo the Ethio

The Rastafarian movement is a direct of various other black power movements before the 1960 in America and the Caribean.

Some of the more important ones was lead by Marcus Garvey and others. These movements were important for much greater reasons than simple identity.

Read Marcus Garvey and his "back to Africa movement".

THUS....

It is natural to relate 'blackness' to any person who is following the Rastafarian movement.

Clear?

As for 'whites' that are rastas; they are entitled, but can never fully be what a real rasta is......ANTI WEST.

Listen to some of Bob Marley's songs again but carefully and count how many negative ways he refers to "Babylon".

They are NOT racists. (I personally feel that is an impossibility). They believe that they are speaking the truth; not rhetoric.

Many serious rastas even marry (by their standard of marriage) whites.  These whites of course are rastas.

This does not change what is already said. What I previously posted is true of real Rastafarian's. Not wannabees and pretenders.

Uh mm... so;  if this guy is white; than so be it. My previous post remains intact.

He is the one who has to reconcile with the points I made. Or ignore it.
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« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2006, 09:05:06 PM »

EhKristos Anesti

What a great name!

Every time I see your name on the site I get a good feeling since I am firmly familiar with its Coptic meaning.

I want say thanks for your posts regarding the rastaman. I am happy that you are so verse with the former Ethiopian Emporer and who he truely is.

I pray that rastaman finds his way to Christ.

Amde
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« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2006, 12:35:18 AM »

Mo the Ethio

The Rastafarian movement is a direct of various other black power movements before the 1960 in America and the Caribean.

Some of the more important ones was lead by Marcus Garvey and others. These movements were important for much greater reasons than simple identity.

Read Marcus Garvey and his "back to Africa movement".

THUS....

It is natural to relate 'blackness' to any person who is following the Rastafarian movement.

Clear?

As for 'whites' that are rastas; they are entitled, but can never fully be what a real rasta is......ANTI WEST.

Listen to some of Bob Marley's songs again but carefully and count how many negative ways he refers to "Babylon".

They are NOT racists. (I personally feel that is an impossibility). They believe that they are speaking the truth; not rhetoric.

Many serious rastas even marry (by their standard of marriage) whites.ÂÂ  These whites of course are rastas.

This does not change what is already said. What I previously posted is true of real Rastafarian's. Not wannabees and pretenders.

Uh mm... so;ÂÂ  if this guy is white; than so be it. My previous post remains intact.

He is the one who has to reconcile with the points I made. Or ignore it.

 I have read your post . It`s late . I`ve been working  my a#s off . I will address you and Rastaman asap.
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« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2006, 01:53:00 AM »



The Rastafarian movement is a direct of various other black power movements before the 1960 in America and the Caribean.
and your point is...ah yes, the root of Rastafarian(ism) is black nationalism.
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« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2006, 02:06:10 AM »



THUS....

It is natural to relate 'blackness' to any person who is following the Rastafarian movement.

Clear?

As for 'whites' that are rastas; they are entitled, but can never fully be what a real rasta is......ANTI WEST.



   CLEAR? CLEAR?   I`ll tell you what IS clear: It is CLEAR that these two statements contradict each other. It is CLEAR that you are defending Rastafarian(ism) and it is CLEAR that you don`t live in Jamaica or the western hemesphere . So PLEASE don`t lecture me about this so called "movement" when you you have no idea of the reality ...only some idealized concept in your mind that lacks a full understanding of what goes on here.
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« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2006, 02:21:56 AM »



Listen to some of Bob Marley's songs again but carefully and count how many negative ways he refers to "Babylon".

They are NOT racists. (I personally feel that is an impossibility). They believe that they are speaking the truth; not rhetoric.



   Go back and read my posts. I never said that Bob Marley espoused racism. I referred to the so called "sects" of Rastafari. CLEARLY you and Rastaman have never been to Jamaica (and Rastaman , I don`t mean the tourist areas, I mean Kingston..Mo Bay , Negril don`t count) .
 Again , don`t lecture me , son. I was listening to Bob Marley when you were a twinkle in your daddy eye .My band opened for Bob Marley. I hung with Bob Marley. Bob was no Racist. DON`T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
 However , the Rasta " movement" ( what a joke , there is no movement) is by and large racist. I stand by by posts.
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« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2006, 01:14:57 PM »

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It is CLEAR that you are defending Rastafarian(ism)

I don't think that's a fair call.

I'm not sure why a difference of opinion on a matter that is not essentially pertinent to the falsity of Rastafarianism as a faith has insitgated that reaction from you. Maybe i'm missing something.
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« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2006, 03:31:20 PM »

However , the Rasta " movement" ( what a joke , there is no movement) is by and large racist. I stand by by posts.

I think that can be debated...

If I believe correctly, the rastafari belief did infact have a large portion of it dedicated to anti-white and black naitonalism...but today it has changed much, proof of this is Rastaman, who himself is white and the majority do not criticise him. Of course your going to have thsoe few idiots that are racist, but you have them in every faith, even orthodoxy.

Personally I know some rastafaris in my school, and theyre all black. I'm even really good with one of them. When he wore a Bob Marely shirt, I said to him jokingly "haha....your idol was infact an orthodox convert, attempting it throughout his whole life, trying to escape Rastafari!"  immediately I regretted what I said because I thought maybe I offended him but he actually laughed....

Anyways, I highly dont most of them are racist nowadays...
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« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2006, 06:18:09 PM »



Anyways, I highly dont most of them are racist nowadays...

 We are going to have to agree to disagree on that point.
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« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2006, 06:27:14 PM »

I don't think that's a fair call.

I'm not sure why a difference of opinion on a matter that is not essentially pertinent to the falsity of Rastafarianism as a faith has insitgated that reaction from you. Maybe i'm missing something.
   
  I spent 25 years in this so called "movement". I tend to get worked up over this issue .
Perhaps you are right, E.A.   I think " apologist " would be a better word.
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« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2006, 06:33:26 PM »

You spent 25 years in a false heretical religion that you consider to be racist??

I bet that was fun.
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« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2006, 06:47:03 PM »

You spent 25 years in a false heretical religion that you consider to be racist??

I bet that was fun.
God desires not the death of a sinner, but that he repent and be saved. And,I `m a slow learner.                 I would also like to point out that St.Paul spent many years persecuting Christians before the true faith was revealed to him. St.Moses was murder and a thief. St. Mary of Egypt was a prostitute.
 I am hardly unique in that regard . Glory to God that he revealed himself to me.
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« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2006, 11:00:04 PM »

MO the Ethio

I am sorry that i have touched a nerve with you.

Also I think my post was a little arrogant ...Sorry!

You are right about knowing more about rastas. But be certain of this...I have NO respect for the belief system called Rastafarianism. It is for me an awful concept that has mislead many people. It has also embarrassed the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church community. I was today asked "why Coptics believe in smoking bush"?

Of course the person who asked is not knowledgeable.

My point is most people are not knowledgeable and simple street information serve as 'school'. The man thought this because some Jamaicans he experienced claimed their religion is Coptic. These were actually rastas. But he checked no further and drew his final conclusions about Coptics from that alone.
 
I respect any person who has a real interest in trying to find God. That does mean I respect how they perform their quest. They must be lead to Christ and His true Church.
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« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2006, 11:21:48 PM »

MO the Ethio

I am sorry that i have touched a nerve with you.

Also I think my post was a little arrogant ...Sorry!

You are right about knowing more about rastas. But be certain of this...I have NO respect for the belief system called Rastafarianism. It is for me an awful concept that has mislead many people. It has also embarrassed the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church community. I was today asked "why Coptics believe in smoking bush"?

Of course the person who asked is not knowledgeable.

My point is most people are not knowledgeable and simple street information serve as 'school'. The man thought this because some Jamaicans he experienced claimed their religion is Coptic. These were actually rastas. But he checked no further and drew his final conclusions about Coptics from that alone.
 
I respect any person who has a real interest in trying to find God. That does mean I respect how they perform their quest. They must be lead to Christ and His true Church.
My Brother in Christ :
  You have no need to apologize. It is I who need to ask your forgiveness for my uncivil and somewhat vicious responce to your post.
  For the record , I found your first post very insightful. You have a much better grasp on the theological end of this debate than I.
                   Moses      +++
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« Reply #52 on: July 04, 2006, 05:58:49 PM »

This is further evidence of the cluelessness of the Rasta religion:

To:     Jah Jah Love
Date:   
Jul 4, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject:   RE: RE: RE: RE: I'm sorry...   
Body:   Rastafarianism began as a black empowerment movement, to bring all black people back to Africa and condemn the white race as Babylon.
Did you know that Haile Selassie himself denied being the Messiah? In fact, he was a devout member of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. He definitely would not have approved of the recreational use of drugs, not even marijuana.

Listen to Emperor Haile Selassie denial of deity in an interview in Canada in 1967 aboard the royal train.
http://www.jamaicans.com/culture/rasta/interview_popup.htm

If you knew what you really believed in, you wouldn't believe it.

Peace.




----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Jah Jah Love
Date: Jul 4, 2006 11:44 AM

well, according to H.I.M. Haile Selassie I..." Until man is judged no different than the color of his eyes, there will be war, I say, WAR!" Rastafari isn't ALL about color...I believe that my WHITE ancestors did wrong to the African people and I believe that "Babylon" (western civilization) ie the corporate world, and pretty much everything AmeriKKKans stand for need be brought down, then we shall rebuild Zion (the motherland) and go home to be with Jah. I know many many elders in the Rastafari church who agree, but then again some disagree. As long as man walks the earth, there will be disagreement.Whether white, black, yellow, red, anything, Rastafari is a belief same as Christianity, Catholicism, Mormanism, anything. And as for the Ganja, its a sacrament to Jah. The "wisdom weed" is used in times of meditation and deep thought, prayer and worship. And, I DO know the negative side effects of marijuana. Now did you know that there are SAFE ways to consume cannabis? Take the vaporizer for instance. Nothing but pure Deltatetrahydracannabinol6. No carcinogens, just pure enlightenment. Hey, even the DEA agrees. Please look at both sides of the picture...I understand you were "addicted" to marijuana, (i use "" because I dont feel its addictive", so Im no one to say how YOU feel inside, but it was the one HERB that pulled me from meth, heroin, cocaine, alcohol, all things that need to remain illegal. What about hemp? Have you researched anything on hemp? Over 25,000 uses. From building material to gas, to food to clothes. I appreciate your opinion and positive feedback, I will pray that you may see BOTH sides of the equasion. Also, marijuana is NOT considered a drug. It is a controlled substance. It is not manufactured by man from its original state like meth or cocaine or alcohol, its grown fresh from the grown and picked then consumed. Same as lettuce, potatoes, celery, etc. Sing praises to H.I.M. on MOST HIGH. Bless.

www.compassionatecoalition.org
www.norml.org
www.safeaccessnow.org
www.benefitsofmarijuana.com
www.mpp.org
www.hempfest.org

Please visit these links with an open mind...


----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Messenjah
Date: Jul 4, 2006 10:30 AM

I have no idea who you are, but perhaps I need to tell you that there's no such thing as a white Rasta. It's a glaring contradiction. Furthermore, smoking herb is not a requirement of Rastafari, it is just considered sacred.
And lastly, have you heard of the negative consequences of marijuana use? As a former addict, it truly hurt my mind and body. Given that the body is a temple of JAH, I am not going to poison it again with illegal drugs.

Peace.




----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Jah Jah Love
Date: Jul 4, 2006 8:42 AM

well im sorry you feel that way, were you possibly not shown the benefits of cannabis? but as part of my belief as my religion, i cannot remove it from my page for its what i dearly believe in......



----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Messenjah
Date: Jul 3, 2006 11:47 PM

I won't be able to add you to my friends list until you remove the references to marijuana. As a former user, I can't tolerate its promotion.
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« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2006, 12:55:11 PM »

Matthew777,

Considering they brought back my other Rasta thread, I expect them to bring back this one as well.

The bredrin who you quoted no longer embraces the divinity of HIM Haile Selassie and no longer considers himself a Rasta.  Before you rejoice at such news, he has embraced Islam.

Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam
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« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2006, 07:02:48 PM »

Greetings I, Fiqir Bandinet, Satta Massa Ganna,

I really wanted to leave this topic alone.ÂÂ  Seriously, I did.ÂÂ  This is an Orthodox forum, certainly don't want to be reasoning on Rastafarian beliefs.

Nevertheless, I feel that my cotinued prescence here requires that the issue be addressed.ÂÂ  If the thread dies so be it, but if it continues then I will address any questions, debates, points, etc. that are raised.

I also am willing to reason about this on MSN.ÂÂ  I definitely want more Orthodox Christians to talk to on there. CanuckRasta@hotmail.com

To start:

Rev. 5:5, Gen 49:9-10, Isaiah 9:6.

By tradition, Ethiopian rulers, take the title of "King of Kings, Lord of lords, Conquering Lion of the tribe of Judah" as the titles of the throne.ÂÂ  these are the same titles given to the returned Messiah.ÂÂ  The English translation of the name Haile Selassie is Power/Might of the Trinity.

The EOTC has acknowledged that the monarchy was established by Menelik, son of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba.

One Love
Ras Markos Johannis Binyam
Rastaman and Orthodox Seeker

P.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari_movement

rastaman,

Have you ever read the Gospels (Good News), the biographies of Our Lord Jesus Christ ?  Try them.  If you don't want to read all (about 135 pages) read the Gospel of St. John (about 35 pages).

Yeshua (Hebrew for "God-Saviour") Messiah (Hebrew for "the Anointed One") is Love become man, Love as man.  God is Love, Love is God. Love is Someone; Love is One Who is 3 (Trinity=Tri-unos=3 in 1) and the Perfect Love of the Eternal Act of Love among His 3 Persons.

May Our Lord Jesus Christ, our Beloved Joy bless you,
Steve
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« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2006, 07:45:30 PM »

Matthew777,

Considering they brought back my other Rasta thread, I expect them to bring back this one as well.

The bredrin who you quoted no longer embraces the divinity of HIM Haile Selassie and no longer considers himself a Rasta.ÂÂ  Before you rejoice at such news, he has embraced Islam.

Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam

Rastaman-

I did not get a chance to see all these posts.
Apparently a response I gave you on another thread is not showing up.
I think you need to stop letting people pick on you here and get haughty with you.
You deserve respect and I am put off with some posters here who are out of control with their higher than thou attitudes.
I will continue to hope and pray you see that their intention is to help you in spite of the 'tude going on here.
Love,
Dismus
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« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2006, 01:59:02 AM »

Hey Dismus, Blessed be,

You are sure getting around today.  Thanks for the support, I appreciate it.  In my reply in the other thread, I think in hindsight, I might have come across as overly angry or a similar emotion towards you.  Not how I meant it. I merely wished to show that there are still major differences between my beliefs and those that would be conducive to my participation in an Orthodox Church.  My statement of beliefs that follows might help.

I do not feel that the reponses here at any time were unwarranted/uncalled for/unexpected.  Fact is this is an Orthodox Christian community, and the members here have all the right in the world to combat anathematized beliefs such as mine.

Fiqir Bandinet,
Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam
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« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2006, 02:12:04 AM »

My Personal Statement of Belief

This is a modified version of a document that was presented by the Twelve Tribes of Israel (a Rastafarian House).ÂÂ  I changed the pronouns etc and other grammar to reflect first person singular and eliminated statements that reflected certain beliefs of that Rasta organization which I do not agree with.

 1.ÂÂ  I accept the Holy Bible, from Genesis 1 to Revelation 22, as the inspired Word of The Most High, The Father of the Universe.
 2.ÂÂ  I accept that God is a Spirit, the Creative Word, and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, for the Father seeketh such to Worship Him. (John 4:23-24)
 3.ÂÂ  I accept that man’s body is the Temple of the living God, and therefore is His Chief instrument. (1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19)
 4.ÂÂ  I accept and proclaim with all my heart, soul, mind and strength that Jesus, who trod the earth 2000 years ago, is The Messiah, The Christ, The only begotten Son of The Father and The Saviour and Redeemer of Mankind.ÂÂ  That He lived the perfect life and paid for my redemption from the curse of the Law, by His innocent blood (Hebrew 9:11-15, 22) And because no sin was found in Him, in that He was obedient to the Father even unto death, it was impossible for Death, the curse of the Law, to have dominion over Him. He therefore died for my sins and rose for my justification, laying down mortality and putting on immortality. And as such, being the first fruits of them that slept (Romans 5:19) and restored to the original form that Adam was created, (i.e. immortal) it is Him Jesus who has fulfilled the seed that would come (Genesis 3:15) to bruise the head of the serpent, the devil, and will restore mankind to immortality and the Creation to perfection, in the Age to come.ÂÂ  When He returns to overthrow the existing social, political, economic, and religious disorder and establish God’s Righteous Kingdom here on the earth (Daniel 2:44, Isaiah 54:21-2). He will reign from the throne of David, from a New Jerusalem, and the resurrected Saints and the living Faithful will reign with Him as Kings and Priests upon the earth (Rev 5:10).
 5.ÂÂ  I accept that Until then, as the Scripture teaches, The Kingdom of God will remain in the hands of the Sons of David, (2nd Chronicles 13:5,8) to whom it was given by an everlasting Covenant, (Davidic Covenant, 2nd Samuel 7) as long as the Sun and Moon endure. This throne of God, established in the Royal House of David and King Solomon (2nd Chronicles 9:8 ) was transmitted to the Ethiopian Royal House via the Queen of Sheba who carried the Royal Seed from Solomon to Ethiopia.
 6.ÂÂ  The Kings of Ethiopia, descended from King David and King Solomon through Menelek I are therefore of Divine origin, meaning that their throne was established by The Eternal Himself, when the children of Israel asked for a King, mainly because with their ‘fleshy’ minds they could not understand that the Eternal was their King. (1 Samuel 8:1-9)(Psalms 10:16)(1 Tim 1:17)
 7.ÂÂ  I as a Rastafarian will never relinquish the Divinity of His Imperial Majesty, Emperor Haile Selassie I. By this I mean that according to the anointing He has received, according to the Royal tradition, (1 Samuel 16:12-13) the Spirit of The Most High rests upon Him and His Words are in His mouth and speaks by His tongue. (2nd Samuel 23:2-3)ÂÂ  I accept His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I to be the 225th restorer of the Solomonic Dynasty. Therefore according to the Messianic Anointing He has received, His Imperial Majesty represents the Father and His Christ. I therefore hold that The Eternal Word, Manifested in Our Lord (Master) Jesus the Christ (Anointed) has been revealed to I as a Rastafarian brethren through the personality of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I.
 8.ÂÂ  As I accept that God is a Spirit, in the physical absence of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I, the throne as promised will continue in the hands of the sons of David UNTIL Shiloh comes. Let it be noted that as His Imperial Majesty has appointed Crown Prince Zere Yacob Asfa Wossen Haile Selassie, (14th April 1974) his successor to the throne of David, I accept that the throne is now in his hands. And this Monarchy, wherever residing, will continue as a Light to the fact that the House of David will hold, preserve, and be custodians of this throne in the earth until Shiloh, comes.
 9.ÂÂ  I accept that the Sceptre, that is, the Divine Authority to rule in God’s stead or Custodianship of God’s throne will not leave the House of Judah, Until Shiloh comes (Genesis 49:10). Kings from this House have come and have gone, but the one whose right it is (Shiloh) will be seated upon the throne from everlasting to everlasting, not temporarily or over a temporary dispensable Kingdom (St. Luke 1:31-32). This means that He that is to come will be the immortal King ruling eternally. He is the Lamb that was slain, (Rev 5:9—10) 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, and rose from the grave and He whom the Heavens must retain, (Acts 3:20-21) UNTIL the restoration of all things spoken of by the Prophets since the world began (Acts 3:25-26). It is this same Jesus (Hebrew 13:8, Acts1:11) the Lamb of God that was found worthy and is now seated at the right hand of the Father Until He Has put all enemies under His feet. It is He Jesus, the non-cohabited body of Christ who will inaugurate the Kingdom of God in the Age to come, the Millennium, the reign of Christ for a thousand years. His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I and the Royal House is the cohabited body of Christ who holds the throne until Shiloh comes.
10.ÂÂ  I believe that what has been preached in the name of Christ and in the name of Christianity by most Churches, has too often been a doctrine about Jesus but not what Jesus taught (Galatians 1:6-8). Jesus was sent by His Father to proclaim or herald the Good News about the coming Kingdom of God to earth and that I was to repent and believe in this message for the Kingdom was at hand or near. (Luke 4:43, Mark 1:14-15). When I accept this Word, this seed, this message, I conceive and a new life, a new birth occurs in me, (born again) and ‘quickens’ me towards immortality in the Age to come. It is in understanding and belief upon the Words that Jesus spoke that gives life, the seed of immortality. (Luke 8:11-12). And I must also accept that it is His blood that paid the ransom to open the gates of immortality once again as it was in the beginning before the fall of Man. So shall it be in the end, when all the Saints that sleep will be awakened, or resurrected with an immortal glorious body and the creation restored to its glorious state, as it was in the beginning (Philippians 3:20-21) (Acts 24:14-15, & 26:28-23)
11.ÂÂ  Those who embrace this Hope, this Faith that the Twelve Tribes of Israel waited earnestly for day and night, have the Faith of Abraham and all the prophets of God. Those are therefore the seed of Abraham and therefore inheritors of the promises made to Abraham.ÂÂ  This is the Promise of a land - grant, not in the sky but right here on earth where the Meek shall inherit the land or earth. It is promised to the Faithful, IRRESPECTIVE OF RACE, NATIONALITY, OR GENDER. These are the Israel of God, the New Israel. To them will be given the disputed land when Messiah returns. Those who have suffered for this faith in Messiah (Christ), in the regeneration, they will be given twelve thrones, Judging (administering) the 12 tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:29-30)
12.ÂÂ  Until then I believe that Ethiopia is my place of refuge, as Jacob took refuge in the tents of Ham.ÂÂ  I accept the legitimate right of all African descendants to Repatriate to the land of my forefathers, the Holy Land.
13.ÂÂ  I accept that as a follower of His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I, (whose pre-coronation name was Ras Tafari) I MUST study and obey His teachings and follow his example and not the traditions, sayings of anyone which are contrary to his words or the Holy Bible. His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I, Himself a follower of Jesus, and holding the title of Defender of the Faith and leader of the most ancient Christian Nation on earth, Ethiopia, has commanded us to: “…arise with the spiritual zeal and earnestness which characterized the Apostles and early Christians and let us lead our brothers and sisters to Our Saviour Jesus, Who only give life in its fullest sense”. If I claim to love Him I should follow His example and Teachings.

Glory be to the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
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« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2006, 01:44:45 PM »

Concerning the Old covenant with Israel:

Zacharias 11:10 - And I will take my beautiful staff, and cast it away, that I may break my covenant which I made with all the people. 11 And it shall be broken in that day; and the Chananites, the sheep that are kept for me, shall know that it is the word of the Lord. 12 And I will say to them, If it be good in your eyes, give me my price, or refuse it. And they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the Lord said to me, Drop them into the furnace, and I will see if it is good metal, as I was proved for their sakes. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them into the furnace in the house of the Lord.

14 And I cast away my second rod, even Line, that I might break the possession between Juda and Israel. 15 And the Lord said to me, Take yet to thee shepherd’s implements belonging to an unskillful shepherd. 16 For, behold, I will raise up a shepherd against the land: he shall not visit that which is perishing, and he shall not seek that which is scattered, and he shall not heal that which is bruised, nor guide that which is whole: but he shall devour the flesh of the choice ones, and shall dislocate the joints of their necks.

The re-established post Babylon Kingdom of Israel made a big mistake rejecting Christ! 

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« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2006, 10:08:58 PM »

Rastaman, 

I havn't read ALL of the posts prior to this one (which i've missed since being gone), but i'd really like to know how the Queen of Sheba has the authority to transmit the power of the Lord God through HERSELF, into ANOTHER person (or bloodline)

Quote
This throne of God, established in the Royal House of David and King Solomon (2nd Chronicles 9:8 ) was transmitted to the Ethiopian Royal House via the Queen of Sheba who carried the Royal Seed from Solomon to Ethiopia.

How did she carry the Royal Seed?  Does that mean a child?  Who's child?  etc.  Some clarification on that would be great. 

Quote
7.  I as a Rastafarian will never relinquish the Divinity of His Imperial Majesty, Emperor Haile Selassie I. By this I mean that according to the anointing He has received, according to the Royal tradition, (1 Samuel 16:12-13) the Spirit of The Most High rests upon Him and His Words are in His mouth and speaks by His tongue. (2nd Samuel 23:2-3)  I accept His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I to be the 225th restorer of the Solomonic Dynasty. Therefore according to the Messianic Anointing He has received, His Imperial Majesty represents the Father and His Christ. I therefore hold that The Eternal Word, Manifested in Our Lord (Master) Jesus the Christ (Anointed) has been revealed to I as a Rastafarian brethren through the personality of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I.

So Christ the Word is revealed to you as a Rastafari through this "descendent" of Solomon?  How is THAT happenening? 

Quote
8.  As I accept that God is a Spirit, in the physical absence of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I, the throne as promised will continue in the hands of the sons of David UNTIL Shiloh comes. Let it be noted that as His Imperial Majesty has appointed Crown Prince Zere Yacob Asfa Wossen Haile Selassie, (14th April 1974) his successor to the throne of David, I accept that the throne is now in his hands. And this Monarchy, wherever residing, will continue as a Light to the fact that the House of David will hold, preserve, and be custodians of this throne in the earth until Shiloh, comes.
 

So God the "Spirit" is only available at the absence of the physical presence of the Emperor??

Where is the Spirit when the Emperor IS around?  (which I assume he's around right now)

Quote
9.  I accept that the Sceptre, that is, the Divine Authority to rule in God’s stead or Custodianship of God’s throne will not leave the House of Judah, Until Shiloh comes (Genesis 49:10).

Um...to rule in God's stead?  Humans can do that??  Not the last time I checked my Bible...could be wrong though (depending on interpretation, etc. )

I'm not gona go into the rest of your statement until I get some of those more basic answers first.  If you prefer to not answer me just let me know.  Thanks! 
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« Reply #60 on: August 15, 2006, 12:42:57 AM »

Yes, Emperor Haile Selassie was a dedicated and loyal Orthodox Christian, a champion of the faith and an example to us. As others said here, may Lord bless his Orthodox soul. Also, may Jesus bless the loyal Orthodox soul of Bob Marley.

Mo the Ethio,
I really admire of your wisdom and courage to make a correct decision and to become an Orthodox Christian. God bless you!

I really appreciate all these great comments from many people here.

Actually, there is a sect in Indonesia, which believes in deity of another Orthodox Christian, a traveler and ethnographer of Ukrainian origin Mykola (Nicholas, Nikolay) Miklukho-Maklay. Similarly, he never preached any propaganda to worship him.
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« Reply #61 on: August 16, 2006, 02:13:07 AM »

serb,

Your reply is coming, I just need a few days to do a decent job.

To tide you over until then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kebra_Negast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ark_of_the_covenant#Ethiopian_Orthodox_Church

Fiqir Bandinet
Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam
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« Reply #62 on: August 16, 2006, 10:20:06 AM »

Rastaman,

Take your time.  I'd rather get real answers than you hurry just to say something.

Thank you for the articles, they were informative.  What were you trying to say with them?  Something specific?  Here's what I got from them, let me know if there was something else...

1.  There is a historical text explaining the history of the blood-line of the Ethiopian Emperors and their connection to the line of Solomon, through the Queen of Sheba. 

2.  The Ark of the Covenant is in the possession of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and therefore, the Emperor of Ethiopia because it would have been HIS blood-line which brought the Ark to that place.

Is this basically it?  I'd like to make sure, rather than assuming... 
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« Reply #63 on: August 16, 2006, 01:32:11 PM »

Blessed love,

Yes I, those were the two things I would hope you notice.

They relate to your first question with regards to the Royal Seed etc. and several of my points (5-9).

This is crucial, because the Kebra Nagast is not a Rastafarian text, it was not written by us, it comes from the Orthodox.  The Ethiopian Orthodox consider it a valid historical account and the Imperial Family also accepted it as truth.

So you take it and Scripture and the following becomes apparent (to I at least):

1.  Christ and Haile Selassie are both descended from King David
2.  Haile Selassie is the true King of Israel and the rightful ruler of Earth.
3.  As a devout Orthodox Christian, Haile Selassie represents a connection between the past, present, and future (ie. Ancient Israel, Orthodox Christianity, and the future 1000-year reign of Christ)
4.  Christ and Haile Selassie share the same lineage, they are both Kings of Israel, and they both represent true teachings.

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« Reply #64 on: August 16, 2006, 02:34:50 PM »

Rastaman-

Blessings and peace to you.

I am curious about Haile Selassie's mother. Can you tell me about her? Was she unique in some way? I mean this as a serious question and not as an offense to your beliefs at all.
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« Reply #65 on: August 16, 2006, 05:16:30 PM »

Blessed love,

Yes I, those were the two things I would hope you notice.

They relate to your first question with regards to the Royal Seed etc. and several of my points (5-9).

This is crucial, because the Kebra Nagast is not a Rastafarian text, it was not written by us, it comes from the Orthodox.ÂÂ  The Ethiopian Orthodox consider it a valid historical account and the Imperial Family also accepted it as truth.

So you take it and Scripture and the following becomes apparent (to I at least):

1.ÂÂ  Christ and Haile Selassie are both descended from King David
Quote
2.ÂÂ  Haile Selassie is the true King of Israel and the rightful ruler of Earth.
3.ÂÂ  As a devout Orthodox Christian, Haile Selassie represents a connection between the past, present, and future (ie. Ancient Israel, Orthodox Christianity, and the future 1000-year reign of Christ)
4.ÂÂ  Christ and Haile Selassie share the same lineage, they are both Kings of Israel, and they both represent true teachings.

Fiqir Bandinet
Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam

Rastaman,

I feel kind of bad that I keep asking you questions.  It seems like you're being asked lots of different things, at different times, by different people...

Anyway, i'm not the kind of person who beats around the bush, so here it is...

Quote
2.ÂÂ  Haile Selassie is the true King of Israel and the rightful ruler of Earth.

First of all, since when is the King of Israel the rightful ruler of the Earth?  Isn't that what Christ was trying to prove, that he wasn't an EARTHLY king but a HEAVENLY one? 

Secondly, just because Haile Selassie's lineage MAY be traced by 1 book, does not mean that we can just extrapalate that into him being all of these other things!  This is why I wanted you to consider my questions concerning your faith statements, that way we can look at this one part at a time. 

Quote
4.  Christ and Haile Selassie share the same lineage, they are both Kings of Israel, and they both represent true teachings

So because Haile Selassie shares the same lineage as Christ, this makes his teachings true?  What if I were to find someone else who ALSO shared that teaching?  Would their words be automatically true because of their lineage?  There is a certain flaw in this reasoning...

Anyway, so far, to me at least, there has been a lot of extrapalation and flimsy connections based on what I see so far as very little evidence, and i'm really trying to understand where all of these points are comming from and how you or your faith backs them up.  Please forgive me if I came accross angry at any point, this was not my intention. 
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« Reply #66 on: August 16, 2006, 05:35:23 PM »

Blessed Be,

In answer to your question Dismus, there is not much available on His mother.  Due to this lack of information, I have decided to go into more detail with regards to His childhood.

Note: HIM Haile Selassie was known before His coronation as Tafari Makonnen.  At various times in His life He held various titles. First Lij, then Dejazmatch, and finally Ras before assuming His baptismal name at His coronation (November 2, 1930).

Note 2:  Throughout my posts here at the forum I have always avoided unsubstantiated accounts with regards to the life of the Emperor.  His mysterious encounters with church officials, the correlation between periods of drought and famine being affiliated with events in His life, the conspiracy theories regarding Mussolini and the Roman Catholic Church, among others.  If any wish further details, they can always drop me a private message.

Lij Tafari was born July 23, 1892 to Ras Makonnen and the Lady Yeshimebet Ali. ÂÂ Ras Makonnen was a provincial governor, cousin of then Emperor Menelik II and sat on Menelik’s Imperial Council as foreign minister. ÂÂ Makonnen played a major role in the Battle of Adowa (1892), a significant clash in the first war between Italy and Ethiopia. ÂÂ Makonnen also traveled throughout Europe, and received many honours and citations, as well as being present at the coronation of the English King. ÂÂ Ras Makonnen died in 1906.

The Lady Yeshimebet Ali died soon after the birth of her only child.  He had been preceded by six miscarriages.  The Lady was a sharif (a descendant of Mohammed) and also had ties to former Emperors of the Solomonic Dynasty.  She was the second wife of Ras Makonnen.  He also had a son prior to Tafari, it is unknown if this son was legitimate, however the son did succeed his father as a provincial governor.

Throughout the reign of HIM Menelik II, Ras Makonnen and his son always seemed to find favour with the Emperor. ÂÂ In fact, the Emperor supported first Makonnen then Tafari as successor, over Lij Iyasu, Menelik’s grandson. ÂÂ However, the powers behind the throne did not accept such an arrangement. ÂÂ Both Makonnen and Tafari supported modernization whereas Lij Iyasu represented a more conservative approach. ÂÂ After Menelik suffered a major stroke, elements of the nobility engineered a plot to place Lij Iyasu on the throne.

Lij Iyasu was never anointed as the Crown Prince and heir.  Soon disturbing rumours emerged.  The Lij was opposed to Christianity, advocating Islam and even atheism as preferable to the Church.  He also had substance abuse problems.  In the end, Lij Iyasu was excommunicated from the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, thus removing him as a possible successor to Menelik.

Subsequent events led to the coronation of Emperor Menelik’s daughter, Zauditu, as Empress of Ethiopia in 1916. ÂÂ Ras Tafari Makonnen, her cousin, was appointed regent. ÂÂ Her reign was, in the beginning dominated by civil war with Iyasu.

Throughout His regency, Tafari and Zauditu clashed considerably on matters of state.  He controlled the government and advocated reforms, where Zauditu had the Church supporting her philosophy of maintaining Ethiopian tradition.

An attempt in 1928 to overthrow Tafari by the conservative element failed, although the attempts continued for two years. ÂÂ In 1930, Tafari defeated the husband of the Empress in battle. ÂÂ The Empress died two days later, allowing Ras Tafari Makonnen to be crowned on November 2, 1930 in St. George’s Cathedral, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.

One Love
Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam
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« Reply #67 on: August 16, 2006, 05:57:40 PM »

I don't mean to read into that too much but..  Is it weird that the most seemingly negative and conspiratorial facts about Haile Selassie were found in a post written by a rasta?
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« Reply #68 on: August 16, 2006, 07:49:22 PM »

Peace and blessings to you Rastaman.

Thank you for your post. Interesting stuff. I am sure it is a bit much for me to take in at once, but something caught my eye as I scanned it twice..

If you don't mind me asking yet another question - I really am curious about the decendant of the Muhhamed prophet of Islam. Is Rasta simmilar to Islam in any way?
Are you aware of any ties in religion that have existed? If so do you know what they are? Your posts kind of give me much more to think about and ponder.

Thank you, May you have a good day!
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« Reply #69 on: August 16, 2006, 09:35:23 PM »

If - for the sake of edification - we grant that Haile Selassie was actually descended from an Israelite king I don't see what difference that would make given the details of the New Covenant (of which it is written in Jer 31:31 is NOT like the Old one).ÂÂ  

Consider this:

Jhn 1:11  ÃƒÆ’‚ He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12  ÃƒÆ’‚ But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13  ÃƒÆ’‚ Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

These verses show a shift away from Israelite (the builders) exclusivity:

Mat 21:42  ÃƒÆ’‚ Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner:
this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43  ÃƒÆ’‚ Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof


Mk. 3:33-35 "Who is My mother or My brothers?" and having looked around on those sitting around Him in
a circle, He said, "Behold, My mother and My brothers! For whosoever does the will of God,
this one is My brother, and My sister, and My mother."


Wouldn't verses such as the ones above (and many more) make the Israelite connection - if it were true at all - moot to begin with?

 
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« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2006, 05:50:13 AM »

Rastaman,

How are you doing? I was wandering if you were planning to respond to that rather lengthy response regarding the general subject of this thread that I posted for you quite some time ago: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9184.msg123776#msg123776

I don't mean to pressure you into feeling obligated to respond or anything, I'm just curious to know whether you actually gave it some thought, and if so, if you would be willing to translate those thoughts into text.
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« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2006, 11:37:06 AM »

EkhristosAnesti,

In response to your post (Reply 19):

 1.  Reconciliation requires that an overstanding (understanding) be reached between two supposedly divergent concepts.  By this you mean to say that it is impossible to mix the two faiths into one.  Although it may be nice for the Orthodox to say Rasta beliefs are anathematized, that we are heretics, that we are blasphemers…it is not that simple.  We use Amharic in worship and as an everyday language not to mention the existing translation of the HSV Amharic (Haile Selassie Version Amharic) Bible into Jamaican Patois.  Rastas give their children Ethiopian names and celebrate Ethiopian holidays.  We venerate Ethiopian saints and use Ethiopian titles to refer to one another.  When outsiders see Rasta, they will see the Orthodox in us.
Yes, I overstand that there are theological differences.  Why do you think I joined the forum??  How do you think I feel?? I am all alone, my King and God tells me to join a Church that won’t accept me.
The personality and soul of HIM Haile Selassie represents to Rastas that which they could not find anywhere.  We see a Christ, an African Christ, not the Christ of oppressors, of hypocrites, or of slave masters, but a Christ who raised them to fulfill their destiny as warriors of God, who fulfilled them as a people, and who fought against the evil of European Imperialism.
There never should have been a need for HIM Haile Selassie or the Rastafari movement.  Because there never should have been oppression, never should have been racism, slavery, segregation, pillaging Crusades, Inquisitions, and the list goes on.  The blood is on many hands, Christian and otherwise.  And it is the warriors of Rastafari who have received the divine task of restoring the world to the rightful path.  And we wish that the words of the Emperor be fulfilled: “Therefore, it has become the noble responsibility of Christians, and peoples of other faiths and their leaders throughout the world, to pray and to work hard for the preservation of world peace.”
 2.  My hands are tied on this point.  How can a Christian defend Jesus as the Messiah to a Jew without being allowed to use both the New and Old Testaments?  In other words, how can such a claim be defended if you cannot use any evidence from the life of Jesus (miracles, attributes etc. etc.)  In this vein, how can I reply if I am allowed to use only those instances that are acknowledged by outside sources, to justify my beliefs??  I have dozens of accounts that lead credence to my beliefs, but they could all be discredited as fabrications merely because they are only told by Rastafarians.  Of course, they are only told by Rastafarians because anyone acknowledges them as truth would see HIM Haile Selassie is indeed divine! It seems to me that the same could be said in the defense of mainstream Christian beliefs.  Any source which validates Christ as the Messiah is a Christian source.
However, for the record I feel it should be said that the only official response given by HIM to the question of His divinity is an English translation of an Amharic answer to an English question.  It is reported to be an inaccurate translation, and as of yet no impartial third party has attempted to confirm or deny such an allegation.
In addition, the Emperor granted land in Ethiopia to the Rastafarian movement, met with Rastafari elders in Ethiopia and the Caribbean, corresponded with Bob Marley, and donated His Lion of Judah ring to Bob Marley.  Not very discouraging actions, are they??  The Imperial Family of Ethiopia today is extremely prominent within the Rasta community.  They speak at Rasta gatherings, support Rastafarian organizations, and even defended the right of Rastafarians to use images and quotes of them or the Emperor without having to ask permission from them (i.e. Rastas do not have to adhere to copyright restrictions).  The Ethiopian World Federation, organized by the Imperial Family, gains its largest support from the Rastafari movement, not the Orthodox Church.  Indeed, in His 1966 speech to the Jamaican Parliament, the Emperor acknowledged our assistance.
I must say, these do not seem to be deeds designed to discourage the Rasta movement at all.
 3.  In reference to those Rastas baptized into the EOTC, you said that they were living a lie and invalidated their baptism.  I disagree.  By virtue of HIM divinity, His Words and Will are also divine.  I am prepared to argue that therefore the baptism of those individuals is still valid, because such an action is in accordance to the Will of God.  Only He knows the Truth in their hearts.  Although, I must say personally that it may be possible for those individuals to vocally renounce HIM divinity (naturally a requirement for Orthodox baptism), I absolutely and unequivocally refuse to take such an action.  He is divine. Period.  The Church, if She is to accept me, must accept the whole me, not hollow words, spoken lies, and a compromised shallow version of my soul.
The rest of your comments were in reference to a post I copied from a Rasta brother of mine.  Therefore, I do not wish to defend the post, but rather I wish to state that that is a typical conservative Rasta response to HIM’s supposed “denial”, not necessarily a response espoused by those Rastas who may be affiliated with the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church.

In response to your post (Reply 35):

Interestingly enough, Christ fulfilled prophecy as the Son of David and is heralded as the Conquering of the Tribe of Judah.  Given that Mary was a Levite, this is a tough sell to see Him as the Lion of a tribe of which He was not a member!
Once again, I am limited to only those stories which are not propagated by the Rasta movement.  I do have claims which support the fulfillment of those verses by HIM Haile Selassie.  However, for now I shall concentrate on the comment you made on judgment.
HIM Haile Selassie stood before the nations of the world on three occasions: First, His 1930 coronation as Emperor; second, His address to the League of Nations in 1936, and then His UN address in 1963.
You say He did not judge?? He may not have judged souls, and cast them into a pit of burning fire, but He judged alright.  In 1936, He told the League of Nations that the organization had no chance of survival if they did not prevent the Italian invasion.  He said “The flame shall be lit in Africa, but it shall burn in Europe”
The Judgment is coming, but first “We must become members of a new race, overcoming petty prejudice, owing our ultimate allegiance not to nations but to our fellow men within the human community.”
I never said that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 would mean that the Messiah would go unnoticed.  Far from it.  In fact, the coming of Haile Selassie was a well documented event, attended by dignitaries from virtually all the world’s nations.  And they all bowed before HIM Haile Selassie! And this was an unexpected and sudden episode.  Where in the Bible does it say that the Messiah is going to return on such and such a date?? Nowhere!
You see, this is why no church could ever say that Rastafarians are correct - because you guys were supposed to see it.  But everyone is so busy looking for a blond-haired, blue-eyed Christ to come from the sky, hit you on the head, and say “I’m back”; that you missed the whole thing.  No, I cannot convince you that I am right.  But that’s not the point.
And this follows to my quoted passage from the Gospel of John.  He isn’t going to come again with blood dripping, holes in His wrists, waking from the dead. He isn’t dead!  The first time He came, He told everyone who He was, performed miracles, etc. etc.  Still how many have heard the Word and do not believe?? So if He says He is the Messiah some still won’t believe.  If it wasn’t convincing the first time, why would He do it the same way the second time??  This time, those who see it, see it.  We don’t convert, we don’t proselytize.  We believe what we believe no apologies, and no compromises.


One Love
Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam

P.S. As you can see, some things I have repeated.  No need to reply more than once.
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« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2006, 02:18:55 AM »

No matter what Rastaman posts on this site or on this thread can change the fact that:

1. The late Emporer Haile Sellassie is not god.

2. HIM (the late) is dead.

3. The rasta movement and its cousins (12 tribes, Ngybeghi etc.) is NOT of Ethiopian origin but of Jamaican origin.

4. The Ethiopian Church is Orthodox Christian NOT rasta in anyway.

Anyone posting here should just visit official Ethiopian websites; none of which have any mention of supporting rastas.




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« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2006, 03:09:13 AM »

Controversy Marks Ethiopian Orthodox Church Anniversary       
THE Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church's 36th anniversary was marked by controversy when during the celebration service on Labour Day, May 23, the officiating priest refused to baptize a man wearing dreadlocks, telling him that he had to cut his hair first.

"It's the rule of the church," said Rev Father Haile Molekot who assisted the resident Kes Gabre Selassie during the baptismal ceremony.

 
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church compound at Maxfield Avenue, Kingston, is shown in this March 25, 2006 file photo, during the funeral of Rastafarian patriarch Mortimo St George Planno. (Photo: Observer file) 

Although he sought to downplay the issue, the dreadlocked Garth Drummond could not conceal his disappointment.
When it was pointed out to him that he would have to renounce certain teachings of Rastafari, Drummond said he had no problem.

"It doesn't matter. I've certain literal works to really perform, y'know, and that will speak for itself," said Drummond, who still attends services at the Tewahedo Church.
Drummond told the Sunday Observer that the request to remove his locks came as a surprise.

"As I approached the altar, he came and whispered in my ears, after you get baptized you gotta cut your dread and groom your beard," he said.
According to Drummond the priest said as that as long he as was not into the worship of Emperor Haile Selassie as god, there was no problem.

"He said after you get baptized, you sign a paper to renounce the emperor," Drummond said.
"Prior to being up at the altar, he should have had all those things clarified if that was the case. So I decided to stand down because that not going to stop me to perform certain works, " said Drummond.

Although Rastafarians make up a significant portion of its membership, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, one of the oldest Christian churches, does not preach the divinity of Haile Selassie I, whom Rastafarians deify.

Through the instrumentation of Haile Selassie, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church was established in Jamaica in 1970, as a response to the Rasta community which for many years clamoured for its establishment in Jamaica.

At the church's inception, many prominent dreadlocked Rastafarians were baptized there, among them, Rastafarian patriarch Mortimo Planno, singer Peter Tosh, and at a later date Rita Marley and journalist Barbara Blake Hannah.
However, in recent years, while female Rastafarians are allowed to wear dreadlocks, there have been efforts to get the 'brethren' to shed their locks.

"At the same time," said Molekot, himself a former Rastafarian, "you still have men in the church who are dreadlocks, but they were baptized in the early days when the church came here. They were accepted as what you called the pioneers of the church. But the church is here for 36 years now, so therefore people should learn."

But not all members of the clergy were in agreement with the decision not to baptize dreadlocked Rastafarian males.
Deacon Zedingel Greenland who was once also a Rastafarian, expressed disappointment.

"Other churches do it," said Greenland, adding that in other churches, during baptism, have altar calls and that anyone who has the urge to be baptized may come forward.
"Baptism does not mean that a man is a Christian; baptism is just the door to enter in the fold for you to teach him Christianity," said Greenland.

However, Molekot said the international church hierarchy has been insisting that the rules be strictly adhered to.
"All Ethiopians who came to Jamaica over these many years stated that the rules of the church must be upheld. Even our Archbishop, His Holiness Abuna Yesehaq, tried to implement it many times, but as soon as he turned his back, there is a difference," said Molekot.

"It is as if they try to compromise the rules by baptizing dreadlocks," he added, saying it was not the rule of the church internationally.
The baptism of dreadlocked members happened only in Jamaica and sometimes in the United States, said Molekot.

Normally, he added, the church offers sacrament classes at the end of which it determines those who are ready for baptism. At that point, males are required to cut their dreadlocks.
"The same rule does not apply to women," said Molekot.

"No, women's hair is their beauty. So they wear the locks as they like. So it's the teaching of the church, it's not my personal thing."
But that reasoning did not find favour with elder Kes Mahitama Selassie. "It shouldn't be so with that beloved brother," he said, referring to Drummond.

"Because, from what I understand, he had been to instruction classes ... and what they should have at least helped him to do, was to learn certain things."

Speaking about the works he intends to do, Drummond, a returning resident who is also a freelance writer, plans "to get people more familiar with the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, about its canons and the liturgy which is something I'm familiar with for a very long time," he said.

"And at this stage, I decided to show a greater solidarity and identify with the church. But I see that they have a little attitude with the Rastafarian brothers here, and so forth, y'know."


Source: Sunday Observer Sunday, June 25, 2006 BY BASIL WALTERS 
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« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2006, 05:32:52 AM »

Rastaman,

Quote
By this you mean to say that it is impossible to mix the two faiths into one.  Although it may be nice for the Orthodox to say Rasta beliefs are anathematized, that we are heretics, that we are blasphemers…it is not that simple.

Yes it is that simple. What are you not understanding about the fact the Church has anathematised certain beliefs and doctrines, and that your belief system falls under those anathemas? What is not simple about this?

Quote
We use Amharic in worship and as an everyday language not to mention the existing translation of the HSV Amharic (Haile Selassie Version Amharic) Bible into Jamaican Patois.  Rastas give their children Ethiopian names and celebrate Ethiopian holidays.


Do you think Orthodoxy is about holidays and speaking Amharic? Forgive me, but this sentiment of yours just goes to prove your extreme ignorance of Orthodoxy. However, it is not your ignorance of Orthodoxy that continues to astound me; it is the fact that in spite of your ignorance, you consistently attempt to speak on the Church’s behalf. In this instance for example, you are telling us Orthodox that it is not so simple for us to deem you a heretic because….you speak Amharic and celebrate Ethiopian holidays? Are you for real? Language, names, and holidays are cultural elements that have no bearing on the Orthodox faith; they are superficial exteriors through which the Orthodox faith is expressed; they are accidental to the Orthodox faith, not essential to it, hence the cultural diversity within the Orthodox Church as evidenced through her use of a range of languages (Coptic, Greek, Armenian, Amharic etc.) and her celebration of a range of different holidays according to the various customs.

Quote
Yes, I overstand that there are theological differences.


You make this observation as if it is peripheral to considering your compatibility with Orthodoxy, when it is in fact quintessential. St. Paul the Apostle defines the Orthodox Church as being expressed through unity in faith---unity in the Apostolic Orthodox faith. He says nothing about language and other cultural exteriors. You can speak any language you want, but in the end you worship a dead man contrary to the dogmatic teachings of the Church, and you blaspheme the almighty God. Your belief system is not only heretical, it is idolatrous and pagan.

Quote
We venerate Ethiopian saints

Actually, you mock these Ethiopian Saints by defiling the Orthodox faith for which they stood and died for. You’re only fooling yourself if you think you are honouring them within the context of a blasphemous anathematised idolatrous cult. They belong to the Orthodox Church which has anathematised your beliefs; you belong to the accursed group that incurs the Church’s anathema.

Quote
In other words, how can such a claim be defended if you cannot use any evidence from the life of Jesus (miracles, attributes etc. etc.)  In this vein, how can I reply if I am allowed to use only those instances that are acknowledged by outside sources, to justify my beliefs??

Because I can prove the Gospel account of the life of Jesus to be credible and reliable; those who recorded his sayings and actions were doing so upon the basis of eye-witness testimony, their accounts are harmonious and are confirmed by extra-Biblical sources etc. etc. I wouldn’t expect a Jew to simply take the Gospels at face value; I can give him a 10, 000 pages thesis as to why the Gospel accounts are historically reliable and credible as testimonies with respect to the life of Jesus.

Quote
It is reported to be an inaccurate translation

I read the alleged reasons behind the inaccuracy of the translation as given by you in the other thread, and to be honest, I found it quite amusing. Let me make things easier, and let us assume the truth of your allegations for arguments sake. So, according to your claims, HIM never stated the clause “I am a mortal”. I’ll give you that, not on account of some concession to an unsubstantiated anonymous Rastafarian claim, but rather on account of the fact it doesn’t change anything with respect to the implications of his answer, because he nonetheless said, “I am a man”, which has the exact same implications as an affirmation of mortality given the context of the interview as I already discussed in my previous post, and which I am not inclined to repeat. Go back and read it again.

Furthermore, why would we need an affirmation of HIM concerning his mortality when it is a historical reality. Where is HIM right now? His body is dust in a grave; he’s dead! What further proof of HIM’s mortality do you need? Come on man, you’re smarter than this. The true Christ is RISEN; he momentarily allowed death to have dominion over himself, however by virtue of His divinity and authority over death He raised Himself from the dead in a glorified body and appeared to all His disciples. The tomb of Christ was empty after three days; the tomb of HIM remains with his bones up until this very day.

Quote
In addition, the Emperor granted

Again, I will make this easier for you by granting the truth of your claims along with the implications that follow, just for arguments sake. HIM is not my God, nor was he a heirarch of my Church. Therefore what he does or does not do, has nothing to do with the Orthodox Church, alright? HIM was a bad, bad, rebellious, disobedient, and deluded man. The fact that Orthodoxy, and the Christ that the Church preaches, condemns your blasphemous cult, is an unmoved reality in spite of what HIM did or did not say or do. Does this make things easier for you?

Quote
I must say, these do not seem to be deeds designed to discourage the Rasta movement at all.

You’re using faulty logic. Support of Rastafarain people does not mean support for the Rastafarian faith. What don’t you understand about that? You have to learn to distinguish between a people and that people’s faith. HIM may have supported the Rastas for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with what they actually believe. We already know what HIM thought of them with respect to their belief system; he thought them to be misguided, hence the reason he sent Abune Yeshaq to Jamaica in the first place.

Quote
In reference to those Rastas baptized into the EOTC, you said that they were living a lie and invalidated their baptism.  I disagree.

You have no right or authority to disagree or agree on this matter; you are not a representative of the Orthodox Church to claim that authority or right to speak as to the implications of a heretic manipulating his way into being a member of the Orthodox Church. The teachings of the Church are clear. If one maintains teachings contrary to the teachings of the Church whilst attempting to live the life of the Church, then they are living a LIE; they are living a contradiction. It’s simple logic. It’s like an atheist worshipping Allah at a Mosque. 

Quote
By virtue of HIM divinity, His Words and Will are also divine.


HIM is a dead man. Do you need to go to his grave and see his physical bones to understand that?

Quote
The Church, if She is to accept me, must accept the whole me, not hollow words, spoken lies, and a compromised shallow version of my soul.

You sound like a patient who wants to go to a hospital, but wishes to prescribe his conditions and terms of admission and treatment. How foolish! The Church is a spiritual hospital; your heresy is the cause of spiritual disease. You either come to the hospital to deal with the cause of the disease in order to be treated, or you maintain the cause of the disease and let it slowly kill you; it’s your choice. But to expect the hospital to tolerate the cause of the disease whilst attempting to treat the disease at the same time, is nothing but foolish.
 
No one is trying to impose Orthodoxy on you. If you want to worship a dead man, that’s your right. Just understand that you have no place in the Orthodox Church if you will not let go of such doctrines; if you want to succumb to the devil’s deceit and manipulate your way into the Church, then you will suffer the judgment of the Almighty. It’s Rastafarianism or Orthodox Christianity, you can’t have both. PERIOD.

Quote
Interestingly enough, Christ fulfilled prophecy as the Son of David and is heralded as the Conquering of the Tribe of Judah.  Given that Mary was a Levite, this is a tough sell to see Him as the Lion of a tribe of which He was not a member!

You want to dispute the testimony of the Scriptures now? It is not I or any contemporary Church leader that attributes Christ to being of the tribe of Judah, it is the Holy Prophets and the Apostles elected by Christ himself. Micah the Prophet prophesied concerning Christ, saying: “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2)

Was HIM born in Bethelehem? Nope. The Judahite prophesied of in this verse, who was to be born in Bethlehem, who would be ruler over Israel, and whose existence was eternal, was none other than Christ Jesus, Son of the Living God.

St. Matthew the Apostle of Christ reiterated Micah’s prophecy saying: “And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.” (Matthew 2:6)

Are you and your leaders so arrogant Rastaman, so as to think you know better than the Holy Prophet Micah, and the Holy Apostle elected by Christ himself, St Matthew? Humble yourselves, for you and your fellow Rastafarians are but ignorants before these great and Holy men of God.

Neither you nor your cult prove any familiarity with the Bible whatsoever, for had you or your cult leaders been well trained in the Scriptures, you would have known that since the days of Joshua the prophet, the tribe of Levi ceased to exist as a distinct tribe, so how can it be said that the blessed St. Mary, who existed more than a millenium after the event, came from this very tribe?

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You say He did not judge?? He may not have judged souls , and cast them into a pit of burning fire

Then he did not fulfil the verses regarding Christ’s second coming, since Christ is clearly speaking about judging the souls of the world, and granting them eternal paradise or casting them into eternal fire. Have you actually read the Bible man? It seems like you have no idea regarding what the Biblical Christ taught and preached concerning his second coming.

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In fact, the coming of Haile Selassie was a well documented event

So was President Bush’s, and Sadam Hussein’s, the Queen of England’s, and any other historical world leader. Those three are probably more world renowned than HIM is too. What's your point?

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And they all bowed before HIM Haile Selassie!

Oh, you mean a bow of respect given to most world leaders, including the Queen of England, or even local authorities like justices and magistrates of courts? Come on man, you're smarter than this.

Quote
Where in the Bible does it say that the Messiah is going to return on such and such a date?? Nowhere!

Who said that the Bible pronounces a date for the second coming of Christ? I certainly didn’t; so why are you challenging me to search the Scriptures for such a thing?  The Bible explicitly pronounces the fact that Christ will descend from heaven on the clouds of glory to judge the living and the dead, to grant paradise and cast into hell. Sorry, HIM came into this world like any normal human being and died like any normal human being.

Quote
You see, this is why no church could ever say that Rastafarians are correct - because you guys were supposed to see it.


You can adopt that fanciful fantasy if you wish, but the plain and simple truth is that the Church would never say Rastafarians are correct because She, being established by the authority of Christ and His Apostles and being inspired by the Holy Spirit, recognises the plain truth that Rastafarians are simply a satanically deceived peoples who have replaced the Almighty God with an idol, namely, a dead powerless man.

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But everyone is so busy looking for a blond-haired, blue-eyed Christ to come from the sky

Do you have any serious intellectual arguments to make here, or are you just going to continue wasting our time with this stupidity? No one is looking for anyone with any particular physical appearance—it seems like you just want to start making things up on our behalf now to save face.

Christ is the one who said he will descend from the heavens on the clouds of glory with a multitude of Angels; I’m not making this up, the Church is not making this up. These were his own words. Read the Bible for once—the Bible that the Orthodox Church produced and that she has defended and maintained for the past two thousand years.
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« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2006, 10:34:28 AM »

The text of my private message to you still stands, EA.

I was foolish enough already.
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« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2006, 01:13:58 PM »

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning." - St. John 15:18-27

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« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2006, 01:22:10 PM »

Rastaman,

You seem to misunderstand everyone's frustration, and you turn this into some sort of martyrdom on your behalf.  But no one hear is hating you or persecuting you.  No one is threatening you.  No one damaged your property for being a Rasta.  We only want you to start thinking for yourself, thinking logically.  Reread EA's last post.  He means well, and he was very clear, and he's certainly not forcing you to be Orthodox.  He even gave some Bible verses to assist you in understanding why Rastafarianism is inconsistent with the Bible and thus heretical.  He preaches to you no different than St. Stephen or St. Paul or St. Peter preached to the Jews who persecuted Jesus.  In fact, many of them would probably be looking down and be amazed at the blindness that covers many of the Rastafarians, when the Bible clearly shows proof that implies the tenets of Rastafarianism to be nothing but deceptions and downright heretical.  Try to get past what stubborn feelings of attachment you have for HIM, and think more clearly of what the Scriptures teach.

May God enlighten you and lead you to the Light.

Mina
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« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2006, 01:53:02 PM »

I regret to say that what I have written previously would lead some to believe that I think it is some sort of "martyrdom."

Let me put it this way.  What leads me to Orthodoxy is what the Church wishes me to deny.  Therefore, were I to deny HIM divinity, I would certainly not wish to pursue Orthodoxy.

Over the past few weeks, I have witnessed first hand the many problems that plague the Rastafari nation.  I am not Rasta for anyone else, I am Rasta for myself.

If it was up to me, I would attend an Orthodox Church tomorrow.  But that is not possible.

You wish for me to categorically deny something that defines my whole existence.  You may pray for me if you wish, but don't expect much.

EkhristosAnesti might mean well, but his defence can be summed as follows: Any Rasta source is inherently biased and has manipulated to fit what Rastas WANT to believe.

Therefore, it is impossible to prove any of my beliefs or claims.  I personally have seen the evidence, and looked at the Scripture, and I believe.

I am sorry that we have to disagree.  I believe now is the time for me to state, that I consider my exploration of Orthodoxy at an end.

Ras Markos Yohannis Binyam
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« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2006, 12:00:21 AM »

What leads me to Orthodoxy is what the Church wishes me to deny.

Then you are obviously pursuing Orthodoxy for the wrong reasons. You just can't have your cake and eat it; you either accept the Orthodox Church and her Dogmas, or you reject them both. It's very simple.

Quote
EkhristosAnesti might mean well, but his defence can be summed as follows: Any Rasta source is inherently biased and has manipulated to fit what Rastas WANT to believe.

What a cop-out man. We have discussed a number of issues that have nothing to do with the credibility of Rastafarian sources; issues that you obviously are incapable of honestly confronting e.g. the incompatibility of Rastafarianism with authoritative Orthodox Dogma as expressed through the Holy Scriptures and the Ecumenical Councils.

Let's not be equivocative or dishonest here Rastaman;what exactly were those issues to which Rastafarian sources came into question? They were issues relating to the affairs of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. You defy common sense in objecting to the validity of my very reasonable request that you find Orthodox sources when discussing the affairs of the Orthodox Church. I don't think you're a stupid person at all, but I think this falsehood you are so attached to has seriously blinded you to common sense issues.

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I personally have seen the evidence, and looked at the Scripture, and I believe.

Don't lie to yourself man. If you know the Scriptures so well, then why did you deny that the Lord Jesus Christ was a Judahite, when it is attested to by the Prophets and the Apostles as I proved in my last post? Why did you claim that St. Mary was a levite, when the existence of the levite tribe (notice I said tribe, and not priesthood) as a distinct homogenous group ceased over a millenium before St. Mary was even born?

If you knew the Scriptures so well, then why are you ignorant of what Christ said concerning His second coming? Why are you ignorant regarding the nature of Christ as defined by the Scriptures which contradicts the absurd notion of him re-incarnating through a new human body and dying?
 
Quote
I believe now is the time for me to state, that I consider my exploration of Orthodoxy at an end.

The only thing worse than you not accepting the truth of Orthodoxy, is to accept it under false pretenses, so in a sense, I am glad you have realised that you cannot accept Orthodoxy along with your Rastafarian presuppositions, though I am said to hear that your allegiance to heresy overrides your pursuit to the Truth that was dispensed to the Orthodox Church by none other than the Incarnate Christ Himself, through His Holy Apostles, and to the Holy Fathers of the Church.

I wish you the best of luck in your life nonetheless.
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« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2006, 03:06:04 AM »

I notice how you avoided the whole topic of the Rastafarian baptism with pictures by an EOTC official.

I even posted an article which states that Rastas must cut their locks and sign a statement refuting HIM divinity.  Heck, I am arguing your argument and you ignore it.

Anyhow: "Later in the afternoon the Rases were invited to visit His Holiness Abuna Basilios,
the Archbishop of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church at his residence. The other delegates came
along too. We discussed H.I.M. Emperor Haile Selassie, being the returned Messiah. His Holiness
the Abuna told us at the conclusion of the discussion that the Bible can be interpreted that
way. We had tea and honey with him."

"The Mission was granted audience with H.I.M. Emperor Haile Selassie I
at the Imperial Palace, Addis-Ababa. We were introduced to H.I.M., by the Minister of the
Imperial Guard. Emperor Haile Selassie I welcomed the delegation warmly. Speaking Amharic
which was interpreted by the Minister of the Imperial Guard, H.I.M. told us that he knew the
black people of the West and particularly Jamaica were blood brothers to the Ethiopians and
he knew that slaves were sent from Ethiopia to Jamaica. He said we should send the right
people. The Emperor said Ethiopia was large enough to hold all the people of Afrikan descent
living outside Afrika and he would send a delegation to the West Indies. Dr. Leslie told H.I.M.
that Jamaica had plenty of sugar cane factories making sugar and rum. H.I.M. replied that in
Ethiopia there was a refinery making sugar but not rum. H.I.M. thanked the delegation and
presented each of us with a gold medal.
All the rest of the delegation left His presence except the three Rastafarian Brethren (Bros. Fil,
Mack, Planno, as we had presents for H.I.M.). Alvaranga presented H.I.M. with a wood-carved
map of Afrika with a portrait of the Emperor on one side of the wooden case. The Emperor
then spoke in English for the first time to us. He said, “That’s Afrika. Is it from the Rastafari
Brethren?” (That showed that he knew us before). We said “Yes”. Brother Mack presented
photographs of the Rastafari Brethrens in Jamaica. H.I.M. said again in English, “Photographs;
thank you”. Mack also gave H.I.M. a painting of Errol Flynn’s island in Jamaica (i.e. Navy Island,
off the mainland of Port Antonio). Brother Planno gave H.I.M. a woven scarf in red, gold and
green. H.I.M. said “Is it you that wove it”. He said “Yes”. He said “Thank you again”. We also
gave H.I.M. a photograph of a widow and six children—her husband, a Rastafari Brethren, was
shot and killed by the Police in Jamaica. H.I.M. asked us to who was taking care of them now.
We told H.I.M. that we took the case to Jamaica’s Premier but left the island before it was
settled. The Emperor said that he would do what he could to help. We then took leave."

"In the afternoon Archbishop Basilios again called the delegation to his residence where we had
tea and honey wine. He then gave us all robes and said that he did not only give them to us as
a gift but that we should all know ourselves to be Ethiopians."

"One of the Rases, Bro. Mortimer Planno presented H.H. the Abuna Basilios with a painting
depicting H.I.M. in Psalm 2."

All quotes from the Mission 1961 report.  Funded by the Emperor.

"Praises to the Hola One of I-ration Emperor Haile King Selassie 1st & Empress Menen,

I would like to share a little bit of knowledge & I-sperience of mine on the EOC. I am on my way to become a member of the EOC.
_________________________________________________
The major condition for baptism is to renounce the divinity of Haile Selassie. "That is number one," says the Archbishop. "It is the major thing." And it remains the primary point of departure separating the "Rasta Christians" from all other branches of Rastafari
__________________________________________________
This is a SERIOUS LIE......FIRE!!!!!
I have a number of bredren & sistren who are baptized members of the church. I come to dispel some rumours or myths about the Orthodox Church. The EOC does not have the intention to Convert Rastafari Children into baldhead christians or for Rasta to denounce Haile Selassie Divinity. My bredren told I they dont even baptise in Iyesus Christos Name...they baptize you in the Name of the Ab,(Father) Wowolde(Son), & Menfis Quidus(Holy I-rit) he NEVER DENOUNCED HAILE SELASSIE DIVINITY. so again that is a HUGE UNTRUTH

I have personally seen Abuna Yeshaq being interviewed & the statements he made about Rastafari were opposite from what this article tells you. He NEVER ONCE stated that Haile Selassie was deeply dismayed at the Rasses for seeing him as God...on the contrany he stated that Rasta & Christian is all of God's family
that there is no need to fuss & seperate eachother.
When I heard this coming from his mouth I was SHOCKED because of all the rumours i have heard about. I heard that he is on a "mission(ary)" to convert Rastafari Sons & Dawtas & lead them away from Rasta.
There are a number of Rastafari EOC members who Hail Selassie as the Almighty Creator of flesh.(and dont hide it or keep it secret)

Abuna Yeshaq is aware that there are members of the Church that sight the divinity of Haile Selassie & worship H.I.M. he does not have any intention of changing their beleif or God.
I am stating this because my heartical Rastafari bredren speaks with Abuna Yeshaq on the phone from time to time and not once has Abba asked my bredren to let go of Selassie or instructed him not to worship Haile Selassie.(& he is fully aware that my bredren see Selassie I as the Almighty Creator)
To I Emperor Haile Selassie I is the Almighty Creator:
God in Flesh
The Power of the Trinity
I look forward to becoming a member of EOC & hailing Selassie I to the fullest in his element.

I reasoned with a deacon at the church that i have attended in Tampa, he was ordained deacon by Abuna Yeshaq, he was seeking advice from Abuna Yeshaq after the ordination as a young deacon in the faith and guess what advice Abuna Yeshaq gave this man:
I was told by the deacon that Abuna Yeshaq told him to embrace The Rastafari people not to shun them away, try to learn about them and accept them in his church.
THIS WAS ANOTHER SHOCK BECAUSE THIS SEEMED TO CONTRADICT WHAT OTHER RASSES WERE SAYING ABOUT ABUNA YESHAQ. THATS WHY IVE LEARNED NOT TO LISTEN TO WHAT PEOPLE SAY ABOUT THE EOC OR ABUNA YESHAQ. PLEASE COME TO YOUR OWN I-CLUSION ABOUT THE CHURCH & ABUNA YESHAQ, VISIT A CHURCH, REASON WITH THE(KEZ)PRIESTS, DONT JUST LISTEN TO WHAT PEOPLE SAY. "

"...sistren my bredren & sistren got baptized in Jamaica at Maxfield Avenue Kingston and till this day they Hail Selassie I as the Almighty without any apology & like i said Abuna Yeshaq and other clergyman are aware of this & NOT ONCE have they asked him to trim or denounce His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie Divinity & like I said my Rastaman bredren have a tight relationship with Abuna Yeshaq. Also there is no need to bring certain Rastaman to Christ because they already know Christ & They know Christ in his second advent as His Imperial Majestic Haile Selassie I."

I am misrepresenting Orthodoxy and the EOTC??  Well there is some misrepresenting going on here.

Kibir leNegusNegast Janhoi IgziYahbeher Hayle Silase.



Wow, you notice how there was all that denial going on??  Or not.
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« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2006, 08:39:21 AM »

Quote
I notice how you avoided the whole topic of the Rastafarian baptism


You didn’t even bother citing a source on that occasion; there was nothing substantial to respond to. I nevertheless tacitly responded in my request for an appeal to credible Ethiopian Orthodox sources when discussing the affairs and policies of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

Quote
with pictures by an EOTC official.

Have you heard the saying, “A picture says a thousand words”? Tell me what a picture says regarding the belief of the individual being baptised, the intention of the priest so baptising, the terms and conditions upon which the baptism is taking place etc. etc.

Like I said earlier man, it seems that your common sense is being impaired in your blind and irrational pursuit to defend this indefensible cause of yours.

Quote
I even posted an article which states that Rastas must cut their locks and sign a statement refuting HIM divinity.  Heck, I am arguing your argument and you ignore it.

As you admit, the article you pasted doesn’t serve your interests, but rather it serves my own, so what bearing does it have on my integrity whether or not I choose to refer to it or not? I ignored it because your case has been sufficiently refuted in its absence, and I don’t wish to drag this discussion on any longer since it is starting to follow a circular pattern.

I don’t need you to argue anything for me; you’re doing great destroying your own position by continuous appeal to dubious sources and the promotion of arguments that expose the severe ignorance and intellectual depravity of your cult.

Furthermore, you must have some courage to try and accuse me of ignoring arguments; I’m still waiting for you to address the fact that your heresy is anathematised by Ethiopian Orthodox Saints and Councils and falsified by the Holy Scriptures. I’m still waiting for you to address the fact your God is (or should I say, was) a powerless mortal who had no authority over death, for he, like every other normal human being, was a victim of death. My Christ rose from the dead on the third day and sits alive at the right hand of His Father; your Christ rots in a grave.

Quote
All quotes from the Mission 1961 report.  Funded by the Emperor.

What have you proven with these quotations? I don’t see anything of significant relevance to the issues of our discussion. Furthermore, you continue to display a careless lack of scrutiny when it comes to approaching sources. What is this Mission 1961 report? Who is the author? The quotes you paste sound like they are taken from a personal journal account; so whose perspective is being narrated?

Quote
This is a SERIOUS LIE......FIRE!!!!!

 Cheesy Nice argument (it was the caps lock that really convinced me). You’re doing a really great job of proving to everyone just how weak your position is if it stands on the personal claims and hearsay of anonymous Rastafarian individuals. Anyone can shout "liar liar pants on fire", but at the end of the day, whose claim proves to be credible?

Quote
I look forward to becoming a member of EOC & hailing Selassie I to the fullest in his element.

This will never happen, and if it does, this individual will surely witness the judgment and wrath of the Lord, for according to the Holy Tradition of the Church, anyone who approaches the Eucharist unworthily shall be accursed and there is nothing worse that could imbue one with unworthiness than an ascription to blasphemous and idolatrous heresy.

In other words, he and anyone else who succumbs to the deceit of satan in their attempt to be part of the Church that they in fact defile with their satanic doctrines, will bring the worst of judgments upon themselves.

Quote
VISIT A CHURCH, REASON WITH THE(KEZ)PRIESTS

Yeah, you do that Rastaman; stop listening to the deceit and hearsay of these heretics and consult an Ethiopian Orthodox priest on the matter. I’m sure the Ethiopian Orthodox priests in Canada would share identical sentiments to those expressed by the priests of St. Mary’s Ethiopian Orthodox Church in Los Angeles, who in response to the following question posed by an inquirer (source: http://www.ethiopianorthodoxchurch.org/belief/faq/faq.html#question_6
):

"Is emperor salassie god? like the rastafarians say? do your beliefs line up with the rastafarian faith?"

Answered:

No. Please refer to our belief by clicking here.

Do you know what they linked the inquirer to in their answer, Rastaman? It was the Nicene Creed. In other words, these priests answered this inquirer with the following sentiment: “No, because to believe such things would be contrary to the Nicene Creed”, or in other words, “No, because to believe such things would be contrary to the Dogmatic Tradition of our Church”, or in other words, “No, because to believe such things would be to contradict the very Orthodoxy for which we are known as the Orthodox Church to begin with, it would be a denial of our very identity and a denial of Salvation itself”.

I feel like i'm beating a dead horse with you, but I will not let you get away with your attempt to publicly slander the Holy Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2006, 11:18:59 AM »

Dear Rastaman,

This doesn't change what Orthodoxy truly is.  The fact that the Ethiopian churches, both canonical and noncanonical tell us officially that they denounce HIM's divinity, then it doesn't (well actually it does matter, but in a different way) matter what inner sources say.  They're simply just doing false worship, and they should be excommunicated, whether it be layman, priest, bishop, or even a so-called patriarch that condones these beliefs.

If the Ethiopian churches that you have visited are Rastas in belief, then those churches only remind me of the Pergamos churches in Chapter 2 of Revelations, who compromised their dogmatic faith with heretics, even though they may do good deeds.  If even Abuna Yeshaq or HIM truly believed in Rast beliefs, then I wouldn't hesitate to call them heretics, that is if they truly did.  Official sources and interviews said they didn't, but somehow, "inside" sources say they did.  As much as this so incredible, if these inside sources are true, not only did Abuna and HIM lie, buty they are condemned heretics.

It's that simple.  If you're going to join the Ethiopian Church, don't join on false pretenses.  In fact, something that bothered me about Rita Marley's conversion is that she converted only because HIM "said so," but she never actually mentioned anything about denying his divinity.  So you may have some credence to what you're saying, but that doesn't change what the Ethiopian Church has ALWAYS taught.

God bless and enlighten you friend.

Mina
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« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2006, 04:47:44 PM »

minasoliman

Thanks for your support of the Ethiopian Church and your defense of our common faith you and I share which was founded by the Blood of Christ and established by the Apostles.

We are brothers in the same faith.

The Orthodox Church is not something we are starting nor something we are building. It is something we are continuing.

rastas need to have a religion that has the trappings, appearance and synbolisms of the Ethiopian Church without the Liturgy, Bible or any belief in Chirst. This way they could look like and feel like Ethiopian Orthodox Christians even though they do not have our same belief and faith. rastas love the "Africanness" that is preserved in the Ethiopian Church. The drum, the tsinotsil etc.

They would rather eat the peels and throw way the fruit; metaphorically speaking.

They have this right.

They also have the right to go directly to hell.
They also have a right to go directly to salvation as a means to avoid eternal death which is hell. But salvation is only through Christ who is the Son of the Living God. NO man on earth ever; dead or alive can fill His shoes or stand in His place.

They do not want this God.
The God they want was born though common human sexual relations, ahd his own children and was killed by the hand of other men. The God they worship has died and has not risen.

The Messiah of scripture would be known by His resurrection. This is my God...He Has Risen! Amen!

The rasta god is laying in his grave.

The man they call thier god though he is dead lives only in the body and blood of the Risen Chirst.

This true Risen Chirst Rose up from the dead and ascended to Heaven and sits at the right hand of the father 2000 years ago and will return again in the same flesh full grown to save the world. This God will be for all people not just rastas.

The rasta god is only known by the rastas. he has saved no world. He could nt even save his own life. But the rasta still loves him.

I pray not to but for the man they worship. That his sins might be forgiven.

We all know that thier are many religions that claim faith in Christ but maintain all kinds of heretical and discusting ideas at the same time that are contrary to Christ and His Church. These groups (some call them churches or christian denominations) are all over the world and has millions of people signing up daily.

rastas are just another group among millions.

The individual that has found this site is of interest because he is not a true rasta although he thinks he is.

A true rasta would not hang out with us Orthodox Christians like he has here on this site. He knows that his ideas are of no good here. But he continues.

Why?

Because he is searching.

He does not admit it but deep inside he is not true to the worship of a dead emporer. He feels that something is wrong although he pushes to hold up this ridiculousness.

I have lost patience with him.

My bad.

I am happy that you are strong enough to continue to help him.

He is getting closer and closer to the truth each time he reads and posts on this site.

Pray for me.

I pray that Pope Shenouda is in good health.

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« Reply #84 on: August 30, 2006, 12:16:27 AM »

rastaman..........theres an old saying in Jamaica...." The higher the monkey climb, the more he expose"....it might be time to crawl out from that branch you are on ...before it breaks...

      ( side note........E.A.   ............as always your posts are as sharp as a razors edge....)
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« Reply #85 on: August 30, 2006, 01:13:24 PM »

Mo the Ethio

I wanted to share this reading...

The Holy Gosple according to St. Luke Chapter 8

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.

17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.

20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee.

21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.



This is clear Truth that the Lord has spoken unto the Holy Church that though a person or persons have heard the word and claim faith in it does not mean that they are with Christ which is to be doers of His Word. So a person can be baptised is the Holy faith but fall from grace (yielding no fruit) because he is no longer one with the Word but only a partaker; feeding from it but never being nourished by it. These types are in the Church even today. These types are easily seen because they stand with ideas of thier own leaving to waste what was taught them.

I pray that rasta man finds the Truth.

Roots and Culcha ain't gonna cut it only.


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« Reply #86 on: August 30, 2006, 02:10:07 PM »

Mo the Ethio

I must say you are giving rastaman good advise. We do not want him to fall but to stand in truth.

(How is it you are so verse on Jamaican culture?).

Ekristos Anesti is always very on point. I agree.

The little Coptic I have picked up I remember renders his name 'Christ is Risen"!!! thus:" Ekristos Anesti"!!!.
Coptic Christians I know greet each other with this statement during the period between Ressurrection (easter as some say) and Pentacost. Of course all Orthodox Christians use "Chirst is Risen" as a greeting during the 50 days after ressurection in place of common greetings (at lease all that I have met).


My previous post included a good reading to remember since it is so exact in that we are not all keeping the true faith even though we all profess it.

Something to thnk about....

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« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2006, 04:05:23 PM »

እኔ ስለ እኔ ስለ ራሴ ብመሰክር ምስክሬ እውነት አይደለም፤ ስለ እኔ የሚመሰክር ሌላ ነው፥ እርሱም ስለ እኔ የሚመሰክረው ምስክር እውነት እንደ ሆነ አውቃለሁ።

ፊቂር ባንዲነት
ራስ ማርኮስ ዮሃንኒስ ቢንያም

ኺቢር ለኘጉስኘጋስት ጃንሆኢ ኢግዚያህበሀር ሓይለ ጺላሰ
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« Reply #88 on: August 30, 2006, 05:24:14 PM »

2 Peter Chap. 3:16-18

003:016 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be
understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.  

003:017 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
 
003:018 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
 


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lack or absence of a word is the place ready for Truth; the point which readies our move form darkness to light.

Let the ineffable word of God reveal to us the thought we have not and the expression we retain in our hearts.

Let us chain our tongues and imprison our ideas which are useless; full of folly. Instead let us meditate on the Lord who is the redeemer of us all placing His word in our hearts so that we may know Him not by our speech but by acknowledegement of Him which is the Word, the Risen Christ who has the power to heel, even raise the deed.

NO man who has ever lived on this earth has this power.

Only that which came down from heaven through the Holy Virgin Mary. He has not died and lives not but died and  rose from the dead and saved the world, sitting in power in heaven at the right hand of God His Father.

NO man on earth can take His place then....

Why?

He lives forever....

Christ was there at the dawn of creation, Christ was there at the flood, the parting of the red sea, at the crucifiction, the ressurection and the ascention.

This is God.

This same God will be present in His second coming which we are all awaiting.

Read the Word for His truth it is healing to the soul.

This is what We Ethiopians have been living on since the begining. It is what has kept us until this hour.
Including our Kings and Queens.
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« Reply #89 on: August 30, 2006, 06:43:29 PM »

Out of curiousity:

How many here have met a Rastafarian?? Only Mo the Ethio has admitted having experience with movement.
How many here have talked to HH Abuna Yeshaq??
How many here have talked to HIM Haile Selassie??
How many here have talked to HH Abuna Basilios??
How many here talked with Bob Marley after his "conversion"??
How many here have attended a Rastafarian gathering??
How many here have actually read a text from a Rastafarian elder??
How many here have heard traditional Rastafarian drumming and chanting (not reggae)??

Instead of attacking my beliefs, why don't you try learning about it and me first.  Maybe if you figure WHY I was attracted to Rastafarianism, you might do a better job of "converting" me.

It's pretty easy to sit there and judge me.  Walk a mile in my shoes first.

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« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2006, 12:16:20 PM »

You have selected to walk the path to conversion to the true faith by coming to us Orthodox Christians in our community through the power of the Holy Spirit (of course you think you are doing all this on your own). We did not seek you out.

Your path to conversion started long before you found this site.

You are closer to being converted now then you were before you started with us. This is the good news.

You will still continue in your conversion. Thats the really good news.

It is nothing you or anyone in this community can do about it. All the back and forth with the postings on this matter is exactly how conversion takes place.

We do not need to take part in all the stuff you listed. Your conversion is in the hands of God through the Holy Spirit.

What have you missed?

You think conversion is the product of the effort of sinful men like us Orthodox Christians? Not so!

We depend on the power of the Holy Spirit. We are only a guide; we can not convince you.

The Holy Spirit is what is taking you away from what you are now.

I know you do not believe that but......

Remember this reading:

The Acts of the Apostles Chp. 8: 26 - 39

008:026 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
 
008:027 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship, 
008:028 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
 
008:029 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 
008:030 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 
008:031 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
 
008:032 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 
008:033 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 

008:034 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 
008:035 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
 
008:036 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
 
008:037 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.  

008:038 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
 
008:039 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you see that St. Philip WAS NOT the force that brought about this most auspicious conversion; it was the Holy Spirit. Philip only guided. The Eunuch could not resist the power of God and was thus consumed.

He asked many questions although he was already a very religious man. This Ethiopian even had doubt considering he was a man who worshipped the true God of Israel ( A faithful Jew).

This story should remind you of somebody you know.

The Ethiopian (eventually) believed and was Baptised.

So what you think you are and who you think we are is what is blocking you from seeing that you are the classic biblical example of a person who is called to conversion because you can not see the power of the Holy Spirit (neither could the Ethiopian eunuch).

The fact that I have mentioned this only blinds you further to this truth which is good for your part (What you do not know does not hurt). However; if you see this truth of the Holy Spirit working in you than you are already converted; this is even better for you. Although converted you still may not believe but you have in effect placed your own hands in the teathers.

How do you think the true faith of God was brought to peoples who had religious beliefs that was not just religion but was at the root of their civilisations? The Greeks and Romans are a perfect example. The true faith undid these religions and changed these civilisations forever.

The Holy Spirit has you by the hand; even while you read, do and live with the whole rasta thing you are into; your conversion is at work in you.

I am sorry for any impatience I have shown in earlier posts. I am only a common sinner, I am not the way by which you will get your blessing. But I believe that Christ saves all. I want you to have this hope.

The hope you find in the writtings of rasta elders, the songs of Bob Marley, the remarks of the late Abba Mandefro (formerly Abuna Yisaq), The drumming and activities of rasta culture....all these things are important to you. But you will soon find hope in the Lord.

I am praying for you.
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« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2006, 03:05:30 AM »

Blessed love,

To step away from the debate for a moment.

Right now, I am in the seeking stage.  You see this as the Holy Spirit taking me away from my Rastafari heresy.  I see it as a way to ensure the path I am following is the right one.

"We are closer to God when we are asking questions than when we think we have the answers." - Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel

I have a Lion of Judah ring on my finger.  I have lived three years this way, where every question was answered.  There has been no fear of death, no negativity, only positive vibes.

I can not prove to you that the Emperor is divine.  Rastafari does not do conversions.  But there remains for those who choose to reject assertions of HIM divinity unanswered questions.  That is all I am saying.

I have chosen a path that has answered those questions for me personally.  However, what this path may satisfy in terms of theology, it lacks the fellowship that I yearn for.

Therefore I seek.  I seek not only Orthodoxy, but other spiritual paths, even other so-called heresies.
"All day I think about it, then at night I say it. Where did I come from, and what am I supposed to be doing? I have no idea. My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that, and I intend to end up there."

I found that contacting my local Orthodox clergy (from any jurisdiction) has by and large proved fruitless.  If they respond, they merely wish to dissaude me from heresy.  Great.  That is their task.

But telling me I am wrong does not solve the inner turmoil within myself. 

One Love
Ras Marques Benjamin

P.S.  Quoting from Scripture is not going to be of great assistance.  Rastafarians read Scripture too, ya know??
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« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2006, 11:49:09 PM »

Ok, I know no one will respond to this, and many probably just ignore this thread altogether.

I hereby reject, in the prescence of JAH Almighty and InI Lord and Saviour, Yeshua, the physical divinity of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie the First of Ethiopia.  The Emperor was man, was mortal, and was replaced by the oncoming generation.

HOWEVER

"According to the anointing He has received, according to the Royal Tradition, (1 Samuel 16:12-13) the Spirit of The Most High rests upon [the Emperor] and His Words are in his mouth and speaks by His tongue. (2nd Samuel 23:2-3)  I accept His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I to be the 225th restorer of the Solomonic Dynasty. Therefore according to the Messianic Anointing He has received, His Imperial Majesty represents the Father and His Christ. I therefore hold that The Eternal Word, Manifested in Our Lord Jesus the Christ has been revealed to I through the personality of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selassie I."

Be Blessed
Ras Marques Benjamin
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« Reply #93 on: October 29, 2006, 08:35:01 PM »

SO if you don't mind me asking...why are you stating this? 

Were you not sure before, and now you are? 

What is the purpose of you saying this? 
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« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2006, 02:27:17 AM »

I can't really answer why I said it right now.  I had to say it...this seemed like the best place.  And no one commented on my previous so I had to say something.

As to why...several reasons.  I came to a realization that certain aspects of my theology were incomplete.  I avoid these holes in this statement.

I must also say that in all honesty, the nation of Rastafari has shown signs of sickness in the recent past.  I feel the need to distance myself from certain undesirable elements...certain "Rastas" that do not follow the teachings of the Emperor.

See this is the critical part for me.  The Teachings of the Emperor.  Whether or not He is divine, does not affect the fact that is teachings are divinely inspired (in my view).

I rejected the physical divinity of the Emperor, because if He was physically divine, and indeed was the Return of Christ in Revelation, it does not seem logical for Him to give the Davidic Throne over to His son.

Therefore, I accept that the Emperor was *representative* of Christ, that in many ways the Emperor led a life that closely adhered to the standard of Christ that EVERYONE should strive for.

He bowed down to the Church, and the Church bowed down to Him.

Therefore I bow to the authority of the Church, and I bow to the authority of HIM Haile Selassie, HIM Amha Selassie, and to HIH Zera Yacob.

Be Blessed
Ras Marques Benjamin

P.S.  I am more certain now then ever that Christ SHALL come from Ethiopia's Solomonic Dynasty.  HIM Haile Selassie I come to prepare the way.
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« Reply #95 on: November 06, 2006, 02:22:55 AM »

Dear Rastaman,

I'm glad you reject HIM's divinity, but Christ is already alive, and He does not need to be born again through an Ethiopian Solomic line.  Christ will come again in glory, in the way He was when He rose from the dead and even more terrifying than ever.  He will not come through a worldly glory, but a Divine, heavenly glory.  The line of Solomon through Ethiopia is a mere line, and has nothing to do with Christ's second coming.

HIM is a representative of Christ by virtue of being a Christian, not by being Solomon's descendant.  We are all as Orthodox Christians representatives of Christ.  We all "put on Christ" and by the Holy Spirit are made to be descendants of Abraham through Christ's Spirit (you can imply we are thus all spiritually the descendants of Solomon), and are able to call the Father "Abba".  The physical lineage means nothing anymore.  It is all spiritual.

In wisdom, let us attend to the words of St. Paul in his letter to the Galatians (chapter 3):

Quote
Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying,  “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”  So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. ... Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written,  “Cursed is  everyone who hangs on a tree”, that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ... For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #96 on: November 07, 2006, 10:09:34 PM »

I am in contact with Rastaman, and he has informed me that once again he has returned to his old faith.....that was quite shortlived.
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« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2006, 12:56:14 AM »

I am in contact with Rastaman, and he has informed me that once again he has returned to his old faith.....that was quite shortlived.

I think it's best for Rastaman at this time of easy changes to settle down and re-assess his beliefs, rather than continue writing about them online.

God bless you Rastaman.

Mina
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« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2006, 02:56:13 AM »

Be blessed,

I was not going to respond this.  But anyways...

To an outsider to Rastafari, it may seem that I flip-flopped on a critical theological concept. Hence Mina's comment.

However, I did no such thing.  Outsiders will commonly *assume* that Rastafari as a faith is required to deify the personage of HIM Haile Selassie the First, Emperor of Ethiopia.

http://www.jahjahchildrencommunity.com/gadseh.html

Excerpt
The 12 Tribes of Israel is seen as closer to Christianity than other Rastafarian groups. Is there a basic difference in the doctrine?

"Yes there is a basic difference because we see Christ, and that die and rose again, and that die for our sin, we see that person. So that is, you know, a different teaching, because is not many see this teaching, that Christ is the person."

I want to remind you that we're speaking with the Prophet Gad who is the leader, the head, the founder of the 12 Tribes of Israel
. We want to move on now to the doctrine. Recently we've had much debate on this program "Running African" and other programs about the Divinity of His Majesty the Emperor Haile Selassie as it relates the return of Jesus Christ. What are your thoughts on the matter?

"Well, Christ is to return and sit on the Throne of David, so I strongly believe that, you know, Christ is going to come and sit on the Throne of David."

I want you to.. You said something very important here and something that may disturb the Rastafarian Movement in Jamaica. Christ, You're talking about the return of Christ.

"Yes I am talking about the return of Christ who is going to sit on the throne of David."

Are you making a differentiation between Jesus Christ and Haile Selassie.

"Yes I am making a differentiation. Because Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. And even after His Majesty say, Him saved not by the man character but by the blood of Jesus Christ."
End of Excerpt

And if Iyah want to chek it...google "Rastafarians for Yesus Christos".  There is well established doctrine specifically against the divinity of the Emperor.  By rejecting His divinity...it was in no way a "conversion" no matter what people wish to think.

Rejecting His divinity was in no way an easy change.  It was something I did out of desperation, because I see a great sickness creeping into the Rastafari movement.  It was a tortuous journey lasting well over two years, that involved reading the Bible, listening to Bob Marley, and reading the Words of the Emperor.

For the rest of my comments, most of what I want to say, was already said and not replied to, in replies #89and #91. There are pervasive inaccuracies portrayed on this forum about how Rastafarians think and act.

No one here thinks like a Rastafarian (except me).  I think overall, my presence here has helped me learn, but in the end, Peter Tosh was right.

Nuff said.

Ras Marques Benjamin
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« Reply #99 on: November 15, 2006, 11:02:59 AM »

Dear Rastaman,

I seem to be confused what you're talking about here.  You seem to just throw at us a bunch of feelings and thoughts about your issues and about the "diversity" of Rasta beliefs.

So you're saying that you can deny or uphold HIM's divinity and still remain Rasta?

In the Orthodox Church, we have a consistent system that if anyone upholds a heretical thought, then they are to be excommunicated and not "Orthodox."  So those who denied the divinity of Christ were excommunicated, and thus were considered "converts" since they converted into heresy.

A belief to disregard HIM's divinity and still be part of the Rasta movement shows the weakness and inconsistency of Rastafarianism.  To think like a Rasta means to hope that at one point, an Ethiopian emperor who is a descendant of Solomon would come to sit on that throne as Christ Himself.  But as I told you before, and you haven't answer my post, that that belief still contradicts Orthodox Christian belief.

I believe your problem is that you're not thinking like HIM, who called for your conversion into the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.  You're only being influenced by liers and deceivers around you.

Truth be told, my friend, your desperation is an issue because you only appeal to personal feeling and not to common sense and Biblical refutations.  It is quite a shame that you can close your mind to us simply because you take refuge in thinking that we don't know how Rastafarians think.  Such a thought produces no hope.

I bid you well on your journey.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #100 on: April 02, 2007, 03:20:25 AM »

Obviously I am late to this convo, but never the less I will offer my two cents.

A Brethren early in the conversation was saying that His Imperial Majesty can't be Jah cause you can't worship a man in Orthodoxy. Yet the Council of Nicea clearly stated that Christ's (a man) nature was the same as that of the Father. Only Rome and the Arians accepted the doctrine that seperated his nature from the Fathers. We can all see the Roman Church is by no means Orthodox. So the fact that we see the Almighty in a man is no different than Christianity. Or are you denying Yahshua's divinity?

Also, someone said that he did not fulfill any of the prophesy's of the second coming...I would take staunch opposition to that statement...

1) People usually come at me with the reasoning of "oh well, if H.I.M. is the Christ, then everything would be perfect and there would be no war and such"...i say how is this true?
Read Revelations. The Lion of Judah open the seven seals. That set the chain of events that lead Armageddon in motion. It is not the end of the prophecy, it is the beginning.

2) Revelation 5:1-5 tells us the Messiah will be know as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and the Root of David. Check.

3) Revelation 5:13 "To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power." So we see two figures here. Yet we know they are the same. So the Almighty must come sit on a throne as is stated in the Old Testament and in Revelation. Check.

Revelation 9:20 tells us not to worship a God that cannot see or hear or walk. I don't know about you but that sounds like a physical being to me. A man... Check.

Revelation 11:19 We see that God has the temple that houses the Ark of the Covenant. Read on St. Mary's Church of Axum. Check.

Revelation 13:18 the 666 prophecy... the Pope's title in Vicarius Filii Dei...add those up in Roman numerals and you get 666, quite remarkably even when you translate to Greek and Hebrew (coincidentally, the three languages used to mock Yahshua at his crucifixtion). As we know kings represent their nation so therefore the Roman nation, or Italy is also implied here.
For more info on the Catholic Church as Mystery Babylon see:
 http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/statue/86/1260year.htm
We also have the seven heads being seven hills. Rome is built on 7 hills. With 10 horns. The Roman Empire originally broke into ten European nations.
The ten give power and authority to the beast. (Haile Selassie addressed these nations at the League of Nations and all turned a deaf ear and allowed Italy under the leadership of Mussolini, to attack Ethiopia) Thus, making war with the Lamb, but The Lamb overcomes because he is KING OF KINGS, AND LORDS OF LORDS.
The ten fighting against Mystery Babylon is the Protistent Revolution.

Revelation 21:3 Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Again we see God must be here as a physical being. Check.

So i see plenty of prophecy fulfilled by His Imperial Majesty. But to each his own. Bless
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« Reply #101 on: April 02, 2007, 05:14:33 AM »

Yes, but what does Vassula say?  Cheesy

What is it about Holy Week this year that's bringing all the "interesting" posts?

If you're gonna follow a heresy, at least follow one that:
a) makes sense,
b) is still fashionable, and
c) hasn't been torn to shreds already on this forum several times.

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« Reply #102 on: April 02, 2007, 09:02:36 AM »




Revelation 13:18 the 666 prophecy... the Pope's title in Vicarius Filii Dei...add those up in Roman numerals and you get 666, quite remarkably even when you translate to Greek and Hebrew (coincidentally, the three languages used to mock Yahshua at his crucifixtion). As we know kings represent their nation so therefore the Roman nation, or Italy is also implied here.


No Pope has ever held the title Vicarius Filii Dei, or Vicar of the Son of God.

Nice try, but this Seventh Day Adventist claptrap won't hold, even on an Orthodox forum.  Until you can prove that any Bishop of Rome, or indeed, any bishop ever has used this title, you're spreading lies and bearing false witness against your neighbor.

It's one thing to be privately mistaken about something, but it's another beast to spread disproven lies.

Have a nice Holy Week.

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« Reply #103 on: April 02, 2007, 10:04:32 AM »

Can we lock this thread??

It is no longer necessary.
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« Reply #104 on: April 02, 2007, 10:07:49 AM »

Dear Postolowka,

I never got a chance to tell you how I'm happy for you.

God bless you and may you have an awesome Pascha.
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« Reply #105 on: April 02, 2007, 10:12:51 AM »

Thank you.

The Passia service last night (and the two I attended earlier in Lent) made my catechumenate truely blessed. Smiley
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« Reply #106 on: April 06, 2007, 12:55:48 AM »

Thank you.

The Passia service last night (and the two I attended earlier in Lent) made my catechumenate truely blessed. Smiley
I am so delighted to read that! Have a wonderful Pascha, my friend.
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« Reply #107 on: May 17, 2007, 05:38:04 PM »

Obviously I am late to this convo, but never the less I will offer my two cents.

A Brethren early in the conversation was saying that His Imperial Majesty can't be Jah cause you can't worship a man in Orthodoxy. Yet the Council of Nicea clearly stated that Christ's (a man) nature was the same as that of the Father. Only Rome and the Arians accepted the doctrine that seperated his nature from the Fathers. We can all see the Roman Church is by no means Orthodox. So the fact that we see the Almighty in a man is no different than Christianity. Or are you denying Yahshua's divinity?

Also, someone said that he did not fulfill any of the prophesy's of the second coming...I would take staunch opposition to that statement...

1) People usually come at me with the reasoning of "oh well, if H.I.M. is the Christ, then everything would be perfect and there would be no war and such"...i say how is this true?
Read Revelations. The Lion of Judah open the seven seals. That set the chain of events that lead Armageddon in motion. It is not the end of the prophecy, it is the beginning.

2) Revelation 5:1-5 tells us the Messiah will be know as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and the Root of David. Check.

3) Revelation 5:13 "To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power." So we see two figures here. Yet we know they are the same. So the Almighty must come sit on a throne as is stated in the Old Testament and in Revelation. Check.

Revelation 9:20 tells us not to worship a God that cannot see or hear or walk. I don't know about you but that sounds like a physical being to me. A man... Check.

Revelation 11:19 We see that God has the temple that houses the Ark of the Covenant. Read on St. Mary's Church of Axum. Check.

Revelation 13:18 the 666 prophecy... the Pope's title in Vicarius Filii Dei...add those up in Roman numerals and you get 666, quite remarkably even when you translate to Greek and Hebrew (coincidentally, the three languages used to mock Yahshua at his crucifixtion). As we know kings represent their nation so therefore the Roman nation, or Italy is also implied here.
For more info on the Catholic Church as Mystery Babylon see:
 http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/statue/86/1260year.htm
We also have the seven heads being seven hills. Rome is built on 7 hills. With 10 horns. The Roman Empire originally broke into ten European nations.
The ten give power and authority to the beast. (Haile Selassie addressed these nations at the League of Nations and all turned a deaf ear and allowed Italy under the leadership of Mussolini, to attack Ethiopia) Thus, making war with the Lamb, but The Lamb overcomes because he is KING OF KINGS, AND LORDS OF LORDS.
The ten fighting against Mystery Babylon is the Protistent Revolution.

Revelation 21:3 Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

Again we see God must be here as a physical being. Check.

So i see plenty of prophecy fulfilled by His Imperial Majesty. But to each his own. Bless
...
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The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen, to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," He said, "you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."


...
Jah Elect
The Above reading is the clearest message for you.
Christ is coming back YES indeed; but not throught the womb. (He will not be concieved with the seed of a man anyway).

He was born from the Virgin mary already.

NO MORE BIRTH
NO MORE DEATH
NO MORE RESSURECTION
NO MORE ASCENTION.

The last prophecy is His return FROM the right hand of God coming down in a cloud the same way he went up. He will make a new heaven and a new earth.

HIM was born from the flesh of two common people like you and me. His grand children who are in America are just as common an sinful as you and me NOT children of the Christ which ratas imply.

You are in my prayers.

may God help you and forgive you for your many sins and may he forgive me an abject sinner worthy of death.

Christ has Acended! Haleluyah...Amen

Deacon Amde



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« Reply #108 on: May 17, 2007, 06:19:36 PM »

HIM is divine as a partaker of divine nature in the sense St Peter wrote.  He is god through theosis as Athanasios and the fathers taught.  He is the last Orthodox emperor, he is from the line of King David.  His words are the only legitimate civil laws for the world.  He came from the cloud, which is the cloud of witnesses, the orthodox body of Christ.  His precepts will create a new heaven and earth that is one, tewahido, if followed since he has put on Christ.



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« Reply #109 on: May 18, 2007, 05:34:31 PM »

HIM is divine as a partaker of divine nature in the sense St Peter wrote.  He is god through theosis as Athanasios and the fathers taught.  He is the last Orthodox emperor, he is from the line of King David.  His words are the only legitimate civil laws for the world.  He came from the cloud, which is the cloud of witnesses, the orthodox body of Christ.  His precepts will create a new heaven and earth that is one, tewahido, if followed since he has put on Christ.





Very eloquently put. Nice choice of words.

I must say that I have another albeit fresher look at my former emporer (God rest his soul).

I love HIM (God rest his soul) for what he was as a man and a christian even more now.

Thanks for the depth of thought.

You did not mention few important although not oft stated areas of concern about HIM:

He was a sinner.

He needed the salvation of Jesus Christ just like you and me and all others on earth including King David himself and the entire house of Israel, all the prophets and Moses, Noah the second patriarch and Adam the First Patriarch. Every soul on earth needs the salvation of Jesus Christ.

This does not inlcude Jesus of course because He Has Risen indeed and Ascended into the right hand of God having power over all hosts principalities and dominions whos second coming we await. Jesus Christ does need Jesus Christ........HE IS JESUS CHRIST.

Only He who has Ascended to the right hand of God can COME AGAIN as the true Christ in second advent. This second advent is not a new person in the personification of the Christ BUT THE REAL MESSIAH THE SAME EXACT FLESH THAT CAME FROM THE VIRGIN MARY AND SUFFERED ON THE CROSS. THE SAME FLESH THAT THOMAS (THE DOUBTER) PUT HIS FINGER IN HIS SIDE.

This is the nature of the true Holy second advent: Christ Jesus is going to return as himself. NOT A PERSONIFICATION OF HIMSELF.

No emporer can BE Christ it does  not matter who he descended from.

The true Messiah will not need to come through the womb again. He did that already. The true Messiah never died He still lives because He defeated death on the cross. Thus He will retrurn.

And when He does; you, me HIM (God rest his soul) the popes and priest, deacons the whole church is going to be judged.

HIM (God rest his soul) was a wonderful man, a great King, a true Christian of Holy Orthodoxy.

But he is a man like all others.

Pray for HIM (God rest his soul) NOT to him.

Just thought I mention these obvious although often unmentioned points to bare.
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« Reply #110 on: May 18, 2007, 06:02:30 PM »

Thank you Deacon Amde.  Have a nice weekend.


Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.  I am now locking this thread. Those who wish to discuss the unOrthodox teaching of the divinity of HIM are free to do so in another thread.
George
« Last Edit: May 20, 2007, 01:45:41 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

"The Unity of the Church, as Your Holinesses well know it, is the will of God and ought to be an inspiring example to all men. It should always be a help and not a hindrance to the unity of men of different religions."-Emperor Haile Selassie To the Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches 1965
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