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Author Topic: Orthodox in Caribbean?  (Read 12134 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jenny
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« on: June 02, 2006, 12:49:19 PM »

Hi everyone,

Does anyone know if the Orthodox Church has a presence in the Caribbean?  I was wondering if there was any Orthodox Church on any of the islands there.  I tried doing a search, but I couldn't find anything.

Thanks,
Jenny
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2006, 02:47:58 PM »

Hi everyone,

Does anyone know if the Orthodox Church has a presence in the Caribbean?ÂÂ  I was wondering if there was any Orthodox Church on any of the islands there.ÂÂ  I tried doing a search, but I couldn't find anything.

Thanks,
Jenny

There's an Ecumenical Patriarchate parish in Havana, Cuba.  Don't know about other countries...ones that we don't need to go through another country to get to like Cuba. 
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2006, 05:00:56 PM »

Part of the problem with the Caribbean is that besides the OCA, none of the other USA churches have jurisdiction in this part of the world. Those parishes that are part of the Patriarch of Constantinople are under the jurisdiction of I believe Panama, and those who are with the Patriarch of Antioch would be under Mexico City.

With that said I believe that there is no pressence of the Patriarch of Antioch in the Caribbean and the care of the region has been left to Constantinople. I know of parishes in Cuba and the Bahamas under Constantinople and there have been talks of starting a Russian parish in Cuba but it is not clear whose jurisdiction it would be under (I can say for sure it would not be the OCA for obvious political reasons). In Puerto Rico there is a mission that I am not sure if it is Constantinople or OCA.

Jamica is a whole different situation in that there is a large group who claim to be Ethopian Orthodox but there is a blending of the voodoo culture into the Orthodoxy. There are other on here who can talk more at length of this group.

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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2006, 06:51:25 PM »

Part of the problem with the Caribbean is that besides the OCA, none of the other USA churches have jurisdiction in this part of the world. Those parishes that are part of the Patriarch of Constantinople are under the jurisdiction of I believe Panama, and those who are with the Patriarch of Antioch would be under Mexico City.

With that said I believe that there is no pressence of the Patriarch of Antioch in the Caribbean and the care of the region has been left to Constantinople. I know of parishes in Cuba and the Bahamas under Constantinople and there have been talks of starting a Russian parish in Cuba but it is not clear whose jurisdiction it would be under (I can say for sure it would not be the OCA for obvious political reasons). In Puerto Rico there is a mission that I am not sure if it is Constantinople or OCA.

Here is the site of the Antiochian archdiocese of Mexico, Venezuela, Central America and the Caribbean.
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2006, 08:31:17 PM »

When I went to Naussau in the Bahamas, they had a very large Greek presense.  Mainly people who brought with them the entire sponge business to the Bahamas.  So of course they established a Greek Orthodox church in a very beautiful section of Naussau.

http://www.annunciation.bs.goarch.org/
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2006, 08:52:02 PM »

I know of parishes in Cuba and the Bahamas under Constantinople <snip>

The interesting thing about that is that the parish in the Bahamas is actually under the direct omophorion of His Eminence Dimitrios, Archbishop of America, who, as the Exarch of the Ecumenical Throne, sits as the Chairman of the Archdiocese's Eparchial Synod AND (here's the important part!) oversees the entire Pacific and Atlantic Oceans!

That makes for QUITE a song when we sing him "Many Years" (since the song lists his full official title...I always love singing about being the Exarch of the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans, especially because it sounds funny in the genitive case in Greek).

His Eminence has jurisdiction over any (future) Church built on any island (or platform, I suppose) in either ocean. Not bad, eh?

Anyway, you can check out pictures of the Greek Orthodox Church in the Bahamas here:

http://www.annunciation.bs.goarch.org/Pictures.dsp

Perhaps the Patriarchate has decided that the Bahamas count as an Atlantic island since they are just north of Cuba (and thus not really in the Caribbean per se), whereas Cuba forms a barrier for the Caribbean and is thus not under New York?
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2006, 06:40:38 AM »

Thanks so much, everyone, for your responses!

Jenny
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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2006, 09:34:47 AM »

Jamica is a whole different situation in that there is a large group who claim to be Ethopian Orthodox but there is a blending of the voodoo culture into the Orthodoxy. There are other on here who can talk more at length of this group.

I don't think it is voodoo culture, but actually, the culture of Rastafari.

Anyways: http://www.eocofcaribbean.com/

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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2006, 09:41:58 PM »

ACCESS GIVEN ONLY TO ORTHODOXY IN CUBA

the link is here and it is in greek
http://users.forthnet.gr/pat/glg/Pages/kuba.htm

i will try my best to translate here:


Many people had the same question in their minds when during the opening of the St Nicholas Church in Havana in May 2004
"So how many Orthodox people live here in Cuba? Why all this trouble for 40 Greeks and some old Russians that are stuck here since the Soviet Era.."

But the work of this sudden "change" in the Cuban government wasÂÂ  part of a plan our mighty and mysterious GOD had

Today, 130 Cubans have been baptised as Orthodox and 75 are attending catechisis every Wednseday and Saturday to prepare themselves for baptism. And amongst them, a young professor of Unversity of Havana, who with his young wife have been both baptised and married at the Othodox church of ST Nicholas last Easter. His name now is Athanasios, he learned Greek out of love for Orthodoxy and he is catechizing 40 young Cubans, teaching them Greek, and he has formallyÂÂ  asked to become a priest in the first church of Cuba.

There is also another Cuban, a student of fine Arts who was blinded 2 years ago due to a rare illness of the central optic nerve..

Some friend brought him to church, met with the priests of the church and they supported him. Now he is preparing to get baptised only when, as he says " will be prepared ehough, through fasting and praying as everybody else is during catechisis"

As said by the Greek newspapers, Fidel's closest collegue, University professor Victor Leal, who visited Mount Athos with the metropolitan of Panama father Athinagoras, stated that "Besides the Othodox Theologic Academy the Cuban government will build in Havana, one more building will be provided for the opening of a library and the new Institute of greek-orthodox studies"

Mr Leal, who visits every day the new church, happend to witness the baptism of 14 cubans and stated:

"Today, no other church in Cuda, neither the Roman Catholics nor the Protestands, do the candid and responsible work that you Othodox do. You are the liveliest church, and the people of Cuba appeciate this.."

During the last visit of the Ecumenical Patriarch, Fidel Castro asked the Metropolitan father Athinagoras if he could visit the jails and talk to the prisoners about patience, repentance and hope for a new life within the orthodox belief

this point we have to mention that up until today, the athiest and marxist regime of Havana, in the past, never permitted to any priest of any religion to visit and communicate with the prisoners!


« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 09:44:44 PM by vasilisl » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2006, 09:45:52 PM »

Wow - the Cuba story is a beautiful one!  Thanks for the info, vasilisl!
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2006, 10:55:46 PM »

¡Gloria a Cristo nuestro Dios!   Grin
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2006, 09:47:30 PM »

There is an Orthodox group that belongs to "Patriarch Moisey's" Ukrainian Church:

http://orthodoxykaraibe.site.voila.fr/

The founder of the group, Bishop David, had belonged to other Churches (the Syriac one) in the past before joining Moisey's group.

The current bishop, Luke, used to be an Old-Catholic one!
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2006, 11:24:37 PM »

Some information about Orthodoxy in Caribbean can be found here:
http://www.ocmc.org/news.php?sub=news&action=topic&id=78
Looks like a lot missionary efforts take place.

Regarding Moisey's group, they are really vagante. Some of his beleifs are not Christian. For example, he claims that Jesus Christ and Virgin Mary personally visit him on a regular basis. There were reports that he even preaches physical re-birth. Actually, I know the case, when the parish board at the UOC-USA parish interviewed Moisey (priest Oleg Kulik back then) for a position of the rector in early 1990's. He was not accepted due to his promotion of some strange fanatical ideas. But in those years it did not develop to that extent. Oleg Kulik was ordained in Ukraine, to the Deaconate by Metropolitan Agathangel Savin in 1989, to the Priesthood by late Bishop Anthony Masendich in 1990. Both these hierarchs caused a lot of harm to Orthodoxy. While I personally know many very worthy clergy ordained by these two, in some other cases these hierarchs pursued ordinations of unacceptible candidates. That explains how Oleg Kulik joined ranks of Orthodox clergy at the first place. His ordination to episcopacy happened at another non-canonical group Ukrainian Autonomus Orthodox Church - Sobornopravna, led by Stephen Soroka and currently somewhat renamed to Ukrainain Autocephalous Orthodox Metroploia of all America (please do not confuse with absolutely canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Chruch of USA - Ecumenical Patriarchate, my jurisdiction). The present leader of those people is Michael Champion. Later, Moisey Kulik broke off and started his own group with the center in Kyiv. He renamed his jurisdiction several times. Based on his record, all Moisey's parishes remain outside of the Holy Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2006, 03:58:28 PM »

Oh man you've brought the (star) light!  Wink

I didn't know those details about Moisey, but the breakaway group that was under his authority ( www.uaocamerica.org ) said he had declared previously that he believed in re-incarnation, that he had placed the eucharist inside the antimension (instead of relics of martyrs) and that he performed strange rituals during the Divine Liturgy.

By the way, I used to think that those hierarchs who ordained him were actualy part of the Moscow Patriarchate. I know of Moisey's group because one of their bishops, Daniel de Jesus (who was previously from a vagant sect named "Inclusive Orthodox Church") is Mexican and holds missions. One of them is located near the OCA mission in Nezahualcoyotl (a suburb near Mexico City).

They're not that bad, they're actualy quite Orthodox in their praxis and beliefs, it's unfortunate that Canonical Orthodoxy doesn't offer a place for them.

The Caribbean bishops and priests also come from "Old-Catholic" sects. I visited their site about one year ago and it's interesting how now they look Eastern Orthodox (vestments, communion, icons) while the last time I checked they looked like Westerners. You're right that they share many things with the vagant sects. One of them is that it's frequent to find them jumping fro jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

I'm curious. Does Moisey have a following in the Ukraine?
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2006, 07:41:06 PM »

They're not that bad, they're actualy quite Orthodox in their praxis and beliefs, it's unfortunate that Canonical Orthodoxy doesn't offer a place for them.

Canonical Orthodoxy does offer a place for these people and all people the problem is that it means they must come to the Church on the Church's terms rather then on their own terms. This is almost always the test for what is a Vagante group over a legitimate group who seperates themselves from the rest of Orthodoxy.

Many of the Old Calendarist Groups who are not part of the rest of the Orthodox Church pray for the restoration of the church and the correction of the percieved heresy that the rest of Orthodoxy is under. These groups also look, smell and sound Orthodox in everything they do.

Vagante groups almost always claim to be part of the greater Orthodox Church and have some sort of claim of why the rest of Orthodoxy won't accept them. The real tell is when you start to listen to them or see what their pratices are something seems off about them. Check out this photo from the site of the group mentioned previously http://www.caribbeanmissionary.org/html/start_2003_238.html and notice the mixing of the rites. While a western rite exist in several ligitimate Orthodox jurisdictions you will not see a mixing of the Rites, if the service is being done in the Western Rite, then everyone activily participating wear western vestments and vise versa if it is a Byzantine service. Vagante groups make up their own rules and that is what makes them Vagante.

I know of serveral vagante groups who have made a journey to the Orthodox Church but it almost always happens  without the leadership leading the way (notible exception would be the EOC coming the Antiochian Church). If a discussion wants to continue on the topic of Moisey then I can split the topic the free for all group but let us keep this thread to discussion of the Church's activity in the Caribbean.
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2006, 11:43:28 PM »

Thanks, Mexican.
Yes, Moisey (I cannot call this guy the Patriarch since he is not the one) has some parishes in Ukraine. He delivers some lectures in Kyiv. Nevertheless, the number of his parishes in Ukraine remains very limited. When he just came back from USA after his so-called ordination, he made a statement that he has been authorized by the Ecumenical Patriarch to heal all schisms in the country and to unite Ukrainian Orthodoxy. Some people, who were far away from church politics (while still a limited number from that particular category) bought that. However, every entity, which was somhow involved expressed a lot of concerns. For example, His All Holliness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartolomew stated that he learned about the very existence of Moisey from the request of UOC-MP about Moisey's status. Obviously, nobody from Fanar issues any authorization to Moisey. As a reaction, Moisey stated that he never made his previous statement, that he does not recognize canonical Orthodoxy and that he does not aspire to enter into communion. Actually, when he declared himself a patriarch that helped to destroy some illusions. Previously, some people, not necessarily located in Ukraine, could percieve him as an Orthodox Metropolitan. When he startes his own sect, he called himself the Metropolitan. Later he played some kind of elections, being the only one real candidate, at least de-facto. That how this patriarchate emerged.
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2006, 11:44:40 PM »

Canonical Orthodoxy does offer a place for these people and all people the problem is that it means they must come to the Church on the Church's terms rather then on their own terms. This is almost always the test for what is a Vagante group over a legitimate group who seperates themselves from the rest of Orthodoxy.


Absolutely! Great point, Arimathea!
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2006, 01:37:41 AM »

Does anyone know if the Orthodox Church has a presence in the Caribbean?

1) Aside from the St Nicholas Cathedral in Havana, which has already been mentioned, there are also parishes of the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean (Ecumenical Patriarchate) in Martinique (1), Haiti (2) and Puerto Rico (1). I belong to the latter one.

2) A priest of the Antiochian Metropolis of Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean resides here in Puerto Rico. At one time they had a small community, but as I understand it, they no longer have services.

3) The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad has missionary communities in Haiti.

4) Finally, a new metochion of the Moscow Patriarchate is currently under construction also in Havana, Cuba.

Part of the problem with the Caribbean is that besides the OCA, none of the other USA churches have jurisdiction in this part of the world.

In fact, the OCA doesn't either: §7 of the Tomos of Autocephaly restricts its territory to "continental North America, excluding Mexico, and including the State of Hawaii."

I hope this is helpful!
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 01:38:50 AM by Esteban » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2006, 01:47:28 AM »

Rastaman:

Your points of view are rediculous regarding the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewhado Church. I am always sorry to read anything you post on this forum. I am not attacking you. You are only saying what you know.

To all others:

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahado Church (EOTC) is well established throughout the Caribean and latin America. Currently Abuna Thadeus is the current Arch Bishop of the Archdiocese of Caribean and Latin America. The Church serves the faithful members. And missionizes to all. And those who accept Christ and complete catachism and profess Jesus Christ are baptised.

The EOTC in the Caribean and Latin America is headed by the Holy Synodos of Ethiopia; Abuna Pawlos Patriarch. All Parishes stand exclusively on ancient Orthodoxy alone and is the basis of all preaching and teaching of the Church.

Thier are tens of thousands of faithful throughtout the Caribean and Latin America.

Rastamans comment about voodoo is most likely from his own experience with somebody that claimed they were EOTC members and yet was praticing voodoo in his presence or with him. These people are lost and in need of prayer and help. But they are NOT Ethiopian Orthodox faithful...period.

Most real Orthodox Christians are aware of the Ethiopian Church and its pratices. The Idea of voodoo is non-sense to the well informed.

I am sorry for Rastamans irresposible comments.
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2006, 07:00:18 AM »

Amdetsion,

Rastaman was not accusing members of the EOC of undertaking voodoo. He was responding to a statement made by someone else regarding a group who claim to be Ethiopian Orthodox (but are in fact not Ethiopian Orthodox) and who simultaneously involve themselves in voodoo practices. He was essentially telling that person that the group in question is composed of Rastafarians.
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2006, 02:53:13 PM »

EkhristosAnesti

O.K.

Thanks for the clarification.

I however maintain my commnets about Rastamans comments should remain with the exception of my intention to imply that it is HIS commments regarding the voodoo aspect posted on this thread. But I have read allot of what he posts on the fourm. My comment are thus broad beyond the scope of this thread.

Again thanks habibi


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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2006, 03:11:37 PM »

I was the one who made the comment about Voodoo. Rastaman corrected me by calling it Rastafari rather then Voodoo.
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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2006, 12:51:42 AM »

arimethea

Where did you get the voodoo concept?
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« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2006, 01:42:30 AM »

arimethea

Where did you get the voodoo concept?

The contact I have had with Rastafarians reminds me very much of what in my mind is Voodoo. My contact with Rastafarians was in college and they did some strange things like kill chickens and smoked a whole lot of weed. This may be very different from how Rastafarians act in Jamaica but that is what is in my mind. I also know from the accounts of Bob Marley the connection of the Rastafarians to the Ethiopian church in the Caribbean. So that is why I made my statement when I did, it has since been corrected by others.

I am sure that my impression of the practices of the Ethiopian church in Jamaica is very similar to how others see the Orthodox church when their encounter is with one of these groups who call themselves Orthodox but in reality are not.
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2006, 03:43:40 PM »

arimethea

Thanks for the response.

Voodoo and Shamanism are very much the same.

In Europe we find that Shamanism or its elemenst are still kept in great honor and practiced among Christians today. These behaviors and activities are of course Chrstianized and are well respected all over the world. The reasons and purpose for the various pagan behaviors have been given very wonderful, logical and believable basis. However the facts of history can not be washed away so easily or permanently. These Shaman / pagan traditions vary but include: Kissing under the missel toe, bringing outdoor winter horticulture into our homes, Elves and wild dreams and fantasies of talking, liiving, snow men and or snow monsters and the like, obsessions with reindeer and the ultimate center piece the chief shaman Sinter Klaus with his animal skin suit and bag of tricks. Then we go to easter with the peter cotton tail, easter bonnets and eggs. Then Holloween in the fall with the witches, worlock and the like.

All these things are common among Christians particularly RC, protestants and a growing number of Orthodox.

I mention this to demonstrate that for some; conversion to Christianity was not / is not easy. Old ways are hard to break and new ways of seeing things are hard to resist. Look at Jews today that eat pork, fornicate and engage in all kinds of debachery that goes against basic pratices of ancient Judaism. How they handle it is by creating a new "jewish faith" which accepts the things they want. Easy!

Christians has been and are doing the same thing.

So what you call voodoo among the rastas in your past experience may be a lesson for you and all of us.

Take a look at what we are doing, saying, living. How much wrong have we incorporated into our faith disguised as the true way and practice, described as Orthodox? Are we any better? Maybe so.

I will ask this:

How many easter egg hunts did the holy motars attend?

What kind of Christmas "tree" did the Apostles teach us to use?
Or where is it taught by the holy fathers to deck the halls with bows of holly fra-la-la ..etc?

What canon allows Orthodox Chirstians to permit our children to follow any of the above?

We can all be judged by our actions. God teaches that.

So we are responsible for how we are perceived by others. These Rastas failed to see that.

Remember even the Godless haters of Christ put up lights and the Christmas tree...they love it.

Are we like them?

I am not attacking the Christmas tree and other well loved traditions. I want us to think about what we are doing just like how you looked at the rastas and thought voodoo; because something was not right.

 They think they are right.
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2006, 06:30:14 PM »

Not to hijack a thread...but Vodoun and Rastafari bear no relation other than the fact that they are both Afro-Caribbean spiritual paths.

Rastafari does not advocate animal sacrifice in any way, shape, or form. Period.

Bob Marley's early life was marked by shamanistic, holistic, traditional worship outside of a formal church setting.  That remains the extent of the occult's influence.  His "prophetic" abilities had subsided by the time of his involvement with Rastafari and later the EOTC.

Rastaman

P.S.  Amdetsion, I might have as much a desire to remove misconceptions about my faith as you do yours.
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"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
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