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Author Topic: Whyyyyyyyyyy? (U.S. culture)  (Read 4690 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mexican
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« on: June 01, 2006, 10:29:29 PM »

Hiii

Maybe it's not the right place to post this but after all it's Free4All and it's one of the few forums with American people who are charitable.  Cheesy

I feel so sad.  :'( I met two weeks ago a beautiful and lovely Mexican-American girl from San Diego (I am in Mexico), she has a Mexican father but the mother is Mexican-American (the "unpatriotic" kind), we met at a mall and we spend a lot of time together these weeks and I was so happy I found her Tongue cause she practiced our language and I could practice English and we went to many places.

But then this week (she'll leave on sunday) she said she just can't be my girlfriend because I'm too old for her. I felt used and very sad because of what she said, I don't understand why the Americans care so much of the "age" thing or why it is a problem for them.

Isn't that a form of hipocrisy? In my country it's a normal thing as long as one is respectful with the girl. After all I'm a "good" boy with traditional Mexican and Christian values (the Orthodox values) and I think I would respect her more than any of these people in San Diego who have adopted the MTV culture, dress, behave and treat the people (specialy the women) as those irreverent hip-hop singers do.

Why is the American culture like that?
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2006, 11:19:53 PM »

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Why is the American culture like that?

I've seen plenty of relationships with a large age gap here.  I think its a personal choice, not an American cultural trait. 
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2006, 03:06:46 AM »

Mexican, how old are you and how old is she?
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2006, 03:13:58 PM »

23 and 15  Angry
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2006, 03:32:34 PM »

Because in American culture, people are not mature enough at age 15 to be dating at all, never mind dating someone half again their age. Thankfully, this girl is mature enough to realize that.
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2006, 05:31:13 PM »

23 and 15ÂÂ  Angry

You are past the age of consent and are considered a legal adult - she isn't.  I know that once you past that threshold, it is difficult for a few years since you can't really date anyone younger than yourself, but be patient.
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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2006, 05:43:53 PM »

You're asking a 15 year old girl to be mature and be with you?  Common man...no offense to 15 year olds, but its true in my book...

Also, on top of what everyone else has said, it would be illegal for you to have dealings with her....
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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2006, 05:48:52 PM »

A girl of 15 turned you down, and you're whining about it? Be a man, and accept it.
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« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2006, 07:23:29 PM »

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23 and 15 

When you said age gap, I assumed you meant an age gap between two ADULTS.  That's just gross. 
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2006, 07:36:55 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9179.msg122827#msg122827 date=1149290609]
ÂÂ  That's just gross.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

Dont say something like that when that is only the case in about 50% of the world's countries.  Just because you find it gross as a result of the culture we live in, you think all those countries in Africa and Asia think the samething? It happens regularly in some parts of the world, its not fair for you to judge like that. Do you find it gross how in USA 20 year old golddiggers get married to 76 year old men?
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« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2006, 07:52:49 PM »

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Do you find it gross how in USA 20 year old golddiggers get married to 76 year old men?

Yes. 

Quote
Dont say something like that when that is only the case in about 50% of the world's countries. 

The number of people practicing something doesn't sanction it.  15 is young.  But, I think Keble said it best: "A girl of 15 turned you down, and you're whining about it? Be a man, and accept it."

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« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2006, 09:47:38 PM »

In this country (America) , we have a word for a 23 year old man who wants a 15 year old girl as his mate:
       PEDOPHILE!!!        Dude , you are a sicko!
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2006, 10:13:03 PM »

Well if he truly thinks she is his 'soul mate' or whatever and can stay in contact for 5 years, then it can be appropriate...but DEFINITELY not now.
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2006, 12:41:15 AM »

Mexican,

Kind of a neat method to judge ifÂÂ  the age range between two romantically involved couples is so great that problems may be presented uses the following method:

-Take the age of the older person in the prospective relationship (in your case, 23 years)

-Divide in half the older person's age, rouding up if needed (23/2 = 12.5, or 13 after rounding)

-Add 7 years to this total (13 + 7 +20). This means you should not date anyone younger than 20 years old unless you want to have difficult discussions with friends and relatives regarding why you're going out with that person.

Of course, in the US a legal adult should only be going out with another legal adult.

Finally, I'd like to put in my $0.02 as a man who has been around the block a few times and has four surviving children, two of them daughters:

IF I EVER find a 23 YEAR OLD MAN even so much as LOOKING at my 15 YEAR OLD or underage Daughter in any way that isn't totally respectful of her and that obviously reflects an interest that is not paternal in nature, that GROWN MAN will potentially have different parts of his body seperated from him.

Am I clear with this? A 23 year old man should not be even looking at a 15 year old. Period. Full stop.

You should count yourself lucky the father of the young lady is a bit more tolerant than I am  ÃƒÆ’‚ Angry



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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2006, 01:01:39 AM »

IF I EVER find a 23 YEAR OLD MAN even so much as LOOKING at my 15 YEAR OLD or underage Daughter in any way that isn't totally respectful of her and that obviously reflects an interest that is not paternal in nature, that GROWN MAN will potentially have different parts of his body seperated from him.

LoL. Somehow, I imagine Chris' training as a fireman would come in handy in such a situation. Pickaxe, anyone?

But, seriously, don't be too hard on Mexican. If he is actually Mexican, then he lives in a different culture and under different laws. As far as I know, there are several states in Mexico where the legal age of consent is as low as 12 — and, culturally speaking, a 15 year-old is more than nubile. (We all know that that's the way things have been in most cultures until very recently, e.g. there's epigraphical evidence from Rome indicating that some girls were betrothed AND married at age 9!!! And I mean married).

I think you've probably figured out, Mexican, why American culture views the relationship you described so negatively. Because it's illegal here. In fact, such a relationship, if it were to have any physical component, could land the older party in jail (not to mention classification as a sex offender, a brand that could haunt one socially and financially for years and years). Doesn't matter if the couple is in love, if both members of the couple claim it was consensual -- it's still illegal for a 23 year-old to be involved with anyone younger than 18 (age of majority).

Here's a tangentially related question for our lawyers out there: What happens in cases where one member of a couple has just reached the age of majority, but his partner is still legally a minor (but above the age of consent)? For example, a boy of 18 years and 1 day is involved with a girl of 17 years and 360 days. Also, in states where the age of consent is 15 or 16 (and one can therefore get married with parental consent, right?), can an 18 or 19 year-old marry a 16 year-old with parental approval? (Early marriage would seem to be one of the only real reasons to even have a legally defined age of consent under the age of majority, right?).
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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2006, 01:34:23 AM »

LoL. Somehow, I imagine Chris' training as a fireman would come in handy in such a situation. Pickaxe, anyone?


Nope; I'd use a Kelly Tool. It has more hooks and its functional tips are more dull than a pickaxe....

But seriously, I realize that Mexico is not the US. Still, a 15 year old has very little in common with a 23 year old, regardless of genders and even if the couple were in a place where many girls are married off by the time they're 12 or so (or even, heaven forbid, 9 as the example you cite).

But, those are the rules in my household, and other fathers may not feel the same way as I do. Dad has spoken!

chris
(who actually will pity any young man foolhardy enough to pick up any of his daughters on a date)
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« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2006, 01:49:36 AM »

But, those are the rules in my household, and other fathers may not feel the same way as I do. Dad has spoken!

chris
(who actually will pity any young man foolhardy enough to pick up any of his daughters on a date)

Oh, I dig where you're coming from. Obviously, I don't know the disposition of my future daughter(s), but, if she's anything like my wife (who likes to dance, but once literally kicked a guy in the groin after he tried to come up behind her unawares in a dance club -- and this at age 22!), I pity the chaps who chase her. Nevertheless, I plan to subject any possible future 17 year-old boys who cower in my door, asking for any possible future of daughter of mine, to a variety of interesting psychological torments.

Here's how I envision it:

Me: You may date my daughter if you evince a sufficient knowledge of Proto-Indo-European historical linguistics. Question No. 1: What primitive (yet still extant) word has etymological roots in both Proto-Indo-European and Sino-Tibetan? 5, 4, 3, 2...


(While stroking my 12-gauge, of course!)


(My wife doesn't much see the humor in this.)
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« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2006, 02:13:24 AM »


Here's how I envision it:

Me: You may date my daughter if you evince a sufficient knowledge of Proto-Indo-European historical linguistics. Question No. 1: What primitive (yet still extant) word has etymological roots in both Proto-Indo-European and Sino-Tibetan? 5, 4, 3, 2...

(While stroking my 12-gauge, of course!)


Well, as we all know you're much more educated than I! As I envision it, I'd be cleaning my Springfield Civil War re-enacting rifle (the one with the 12" long, triangular bayonet that is now illegal to use in warfare under the Geneva Convention...) letting the boy know that I'll be done cleaning my rifle, WITH WHICH I AM DEADLY ACCURATE, certainly by 10:00 pm (11:00 pm if I unaccountably like the boy, which might be possible, if incredibly unlikely) and that my daughter should be home by that time to help me in my target practice.

Without Marisa or Sophia calling my shots, I might just shoot anything coming near my driveway, so it's best if they're home ON TIME.

Quote
(My wife doesn't much see the humor in this.)

Mine doesn't either. Why don't they remember Bill Cosby's Curse: that we have kids who are just like we were...
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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2006, 02:28:48 AM »

Why don't they remember Bill Cosby's Curse: that we have kids who are just like we were...

Indeed. That's why my scheme is so perfect. If the boy doesn't answer correctly, he can't date my daughter. But if he does answer correctly -- and the only person I currently know who can do so is our good friend Anthony -- I would simply open fire immediately. Anyone who knows such things is obviously far too similar to certain infamous and unsavory characters. It's a win-win situation. Wink
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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2006, 03:23:39 AM »

I have a method tha is going to be fullproof for when my daughters come home with a guy who wants to date them:

When the gentlemen arrives, I will take him aside outside on my porch. I will then tell him that when you take my daughter out, I will be following them. When he gives me that perplexed look I will then tell him that I will be following them everywhere they go and that I will see everything they do. After he gets a bit paranoid I will tell him that once they finish their date, I will do to him everything he did to my daughter that night: Every action, touch, kiss, everything. I will tell him this and watch him squirm. Then I will tell him to have a good date and bring her home at ten'o'clock because I have work the next morning and I cannot be out late.

This is the fun scary part of having three daughters.

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« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2006, 03:30:23 AM »

But, seriously, don't be too hard on Mexican. If he is actually Mexican, then he lives in a different culture and under different laws. As far as I know, there are several states in Mexico where the legal age of consent is as low as 12 — and, culturally speaking, a 15 year-old is more than nubile. (We all know that that's the way things have been in most cultures until very recently, e.g. there's epigraphical evidence from Rome indicating that some girls were betrothed AND married at age 9!!! And I mean married).

I think everyone realizes it is cultural, but I think that most here would respond by saying that our culture is superior on this matter. A statement that may be offensive to some, but is far from absurd.

Quote
Here's a tangentially related question for our lawyers out there: What happens in cases where one member of a couple has just reached the age of majority, but his partner is still legally a minor (but above the age of consent)? For example, a boy of 18 years and 1 day is involved with a girl of 17 years and 360 days.

I'm sure the law, like age of consent, varies from state to state. I remember hearing a case in one state (somewhere in the midwest, I believe, but I can't recall the exact state for the life of me) where the law was written as to say that no one over the age of 18 could legally have sexual relations with someone 15 or younger, thus exempting both the 16 and 18 year old couple and the 15 and 17 year old couple from legal action. The case, however, arose with a couple where the boy was 17 and the girl was 15; though sexually active before the boy turned 18, they remained sexually active after the boy turned 18 and the girl was still a month or two away from turning 16. During this time the girl became pregnant and, despite the fact that the boy, girl, boy's family, AND girl's family were all supportive of the relationship, the DA prosecuted the case and, I believe, the boy was sent to prison for statutory rape, though there was a movement in the state legislature to reform the law to ensure this didn't happen again, I dont know how it turned out. So that's an idea of how at least one state handles the issue.

Quote
Also, in states where the age of consent is 15 or 16 (and one can therefore get married with parental consent, right?),

I belive that, depending on the state, at as young as 15 parental consent may not even be required for marriage.

Quote
can an 18 or 19 year-old marry a 16 year-old with parental approval? (Early marriage would seem to be one of the only real reasons to even have a legally defined age of consent under the age of majority, right?).

Yes, they can get married, but as implied above, depending on the state sexual intercourse with someone below the age of majority, may be legal. However, this is not the case in California which Mexican said was the home state of the girl in question.

http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
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« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2006, 05:16:18 AM »

My favorite fright shock forÂÂ  my daughters' boy friends was to come out in my black shirt, trousers and a blackleather vest and knock on the window of the car if they stayed parked to long in front of the house. My daughter said my long hair and beard at that time of night was particularyÂÂ  wirey and unkempt, it was enough to frighten any boy who had thoughts of other than valiant behavior out of his wits. They usually got the girls home on time and then visited in the living room before going home rather than staying in the car.

Thomas
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« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2006, 12:44:27 PM »

My favorite fright shock forÂÂ  my daughters' boy friends was to come out in my black shirt, trousers and a blackleather vest and knock on the window of the car if they stayed parked to long in front of the house. My daughter said my long hair and beard at that time of night was partaicularyÂÂ  wirey and unkempt, it was enough to frighten any boy who had thoughts of other than valiant behavior out of his wits. They usually got the girls home on time and then visited in the living room before going home rather than staying in the car.

Thomas

I was thinking about things like that, except maybe also wearing a hockey goalie's mask while I knock on the car door...
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« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2006, 01:18:06 PM »

My dad never said a thing about boys, or threatened any of them, or really ever bothered me about them at all, and I turned out fine.

Raise your daughters well and let them trust you (even in areas of boys) rather than make yourself so inaccessible through playing the overprotective/violent dad and they'll be a lot better off for it.
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« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2006, 02:05:35 PM »

My dad never said a thing about boys, or threatened any of them, or really ever bothered me about them at all, and I turned out fine.

Raise your daughters well and let them trust you (even in areas of boys) rather than make yourself so inaccessible through playing the overprotective/violent dad and they'll be a lot better off for it.

I think you misunderstand...

The 'show' is not for our daughters...it's for the young men to know that their actions will have consequences.

I trust my daughters. It's the others I am concerned about.
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« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2006, 02:14:46 PM »

Mexican, if you do indeed have to wait three years... here is some reading to pass the time http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/185715133X/sr=8-2/qid=1149358236/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-1651090-7340119?%5Fencoding=UTF8
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« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2006, 04:42:12 PM »

It may be for the young men, but it will have consequences for your daughters.
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« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2006, 04:42:32 PM »

I think you misunderstand...

The 'show' is not for our daughters...it's for the young men to know that their actions will have consequences.

I trust my daughters. It's the others I am concerned about.
  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ HERE HERE!!!!!!!!!!   ( Salutes Chris with a raised beer while polishing AK with other hand)
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« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2006, 09:23:19 PM »

This is crazy I mean, physical component, marriage? Angry

I'm talking about having a girlfriend, go out together, hold hands, just that!

I thought I would receive more charitable answers really, but I understand that it's your culture and I respect it.

In my humble opinion those laws are absurd, does it mean it's okay if a 16 year old is having sexual relations as long as the partner is under 18? Do you consider them inocent children? That's hypocricy, it's inmoral, if the laws were truly Chistian it should be forbidden for people under 18 to have those relations.

I find it no sense. I can't understand how it can be that you have a law telling you if it's ok to go out with someone or not, laws interfering in the private lives of people. I know it makes sense when it's about protecting children from the western society corruption but this is clearly not happening (just look at France, Holland, and all those countries).

In my country even though the "age of consent" is sometimes written as 12 in books, the states restrict it so it's very much like in the United States (16, 18 years). There cases (specialy in the south of the country and the regions with indigenous populations) where people marry at very young age (14, 13 years old) that's why the laws had to be flexible. It's their culture, but not the culture of the majority of people.

People who are under 25 years are university students, normal people, young men, how absurd to say they should have a "paternal" attitude, we're not old men, 40 or 50 years olds.

In my country, it's also common for people my age to have girlfriends of that age (16, 17 even 15 but no less than 15), the families are not against it in most cases and it's like this because younger girls are thought to be less corrupt in their actions than older women of my generation.

And you can ask a Bulgarian, a Romanian, a Russian currently living in those countries and he will tell you the same, it's a normal thing. They don't have that mentality.

By the way, this girl I'm talking about, her mother is in her 40's and her dad is almost 70! Her parents have nothing to do with this I'm sure about that.

I no longer feel as bad as yesterday, there's something that made me feel better and think that she's not the right person: I heard they're Presbyterians  Shocked
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« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2006, 10:55:06 AM »

In my humble opinion those laws are absurd, does it mean it's okay if a 16 year old is having sexual relations as long as the partner is under 18? Do you consider them inocent children? That's hypocricy, it's inmoral, if the laws were truly Chistian it should be forbidden for people under 18 to have those relations.

I find it no sense. I can't understand how it can be that you have a law telling you if it's ok to go out with someone or not, laws interfering in the private lives of people. I know it makes sense when it's about protecting children from the western society corruption but this is clearly not happening (just look at France, Holland, and all those countries).

You misunderstand the basis of our laws, they are not Christianity but rather Enlightenment Egalitarianism, the reason that it isn't abhorrent for two people under 18 to have intimate relationships is because one does not have an excessive advantage in experience, influence, etc. However, in the case of someone say in their 20's and a minor, there is a substantial difference in experience and such, which can lead to the older partner haing the means to coerce the younger partner or have an influence not present in a normal relationship. It is this inequality and exploitation that makes makes such relationships abhorrent and subject to regulation by the state, sex is a private matter that the courts have time and time again refused to regulate; however, the prevention of social inequality has is deemed paramount to the maintaining of the values of our republic.

So you see, it really does make sense, if you only look at it from the right perspective.
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« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2006, 11:51:33 AM »

It may be for the young men, but it will have consequences for your daughters.

I truly hope it does.

Let me tell you an anecdote from my youth:

In my young adult days, I was not well behaved. In fact, myself and my brothers were well enough acquainted with the law in my small town that once the local police had stopped some friends of mine for fighting or whatever. Over the police scanner we heard that one of them gave my name as their identity, but the police immediately rejected it since they knew my brothers and I on sight.

Imagine the problem this was for the man who eventually was to become my father-in-law (although we didn't know it at the time). He was a retired Secret Service agent who was also a WWII vet who managed to be the boxing champ for his weight class in his Marine division.

The first time I came to pick up his daughter, he invited me into his office. I saw his photos of him with every President from Truman to Ford, as well as his wartime decorations and boxing photos. He let me know his hobbies included shooting, and after looking at his gun collection we actually set up an opportunity to both go out for target shooting practice the next week.

When we parted company he let me know what time he expected his daughter home. I got his message, and even though she was the one who wanted to violate the curfew that evening, I made sure she was home on time. And her Dad was on his porch to thank me for this courtesy.

Later it occurs to me that as a Dad I should put up a little resistance to any boyfriends of my daughters. If some boy is going to be so intimidated by a middle aged guy in a polite setting, then he's going to be intimidated by others the rest of his life. This means he might not be a decent provider for his family, including my daughter, so she had better find out early that this guy has no spine, and then she can make up her mind about him.

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« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2006, 04:08:08 PM »

Between the paternal testosterone displays and the longing for the good old days in Bulgaria, you are all missing the point.  She doesn't want to do it. I don't care whether she's making up a lame excuse or what. She doesn't want to do it. Be a real man and accept it!
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« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2006, 06:55:29 PM »

Mexican,
Think of it this way: people no longer live in small villages (well most of them don't), where they know every family, every young person, etc.  You have thousands of kids being victimized online.  A 15 year old girl can meet some sicko online, meet him at the mall, and tragedy follows.  I don't blame parents for being *really* worried.  Also, young girls are pressured by society to be "sexy," "hot" "cool", whatever.  It is a much more sexual culture, and NO sane parent wants their 15 year old to be having sex.  Try meeting some twenty-something girls, I'm sure you will find that they are not yet "over the hill"!  And if this girl is THE ONE, wait five years, it will be better for both of you.
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« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2006, 10:39:57 PM »

I'm sorry if anything I may have said offended you, looking back now I may have been a little brisk...

The thing is though, that a lot of us are speaking out of personal experience.  Whether fathers, or former underage daters  Wink (present company excluded of course.. Tongue )

So its very personal for us, and therefore very emotional.  I think all of us really have your best interests at heart.  IF we thought this could work out, we would have told you so. Obviously we feel the opposite...
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« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2006, 03:29:30 PM »

I'm sorry if anything I may have said offended you, looking back now I may have been a little brisk...

I accept the apology. I understand that the topic can be emotional and that people are rightfuly worried about the dangers of modern life. I no longer feel bad because the end of the story was not sad, even though I am still scheptical about the future, because people change a lot.

A 15 year old girl can meet some sicko online, meet him at the mall, and tragedy follows.

Yes, it's so bad that this is happening, and nouble men who do no harm and are normal people, have to bear the guilt of those monsters of perversion and selfishness. Angry

Also, young girls are pressured by society to be "sexy," "hot" "cool", whatever.  It is a much more sexual culture, and NO sane parent wants their 15 year old to be having sex.

And I totaly, I don't want that either. And this is what I was talking about, in previous paragraphs. If things are already bad here where I grew up ("bad" temptations, alchohol, inmoral attitudes) I can imagine how it must be in the other side of the border. I wish people was stronger to ressist these influences, but human weakness is enormous, specialy the girls, they're the main target of the liberal culture.

I am afraid that after three or five years she might become like the other girls who are now older.

You misunderstand the basis of our laws, they are not Christianity but rather Enlightenment Egalitarianism

I should have known it! The Egalitarianism of the French Revolution is behind all this. This shows the great contrasts between Protestant-Capitalist societies and those where Apostolic Christianity continuous to influence the lfe of people.
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« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2006, 10:27:57 PM »

I should have known it! The Egalitarianism of the French Revolution is behind all this. This shows the great contrasts between Protestant-Capitalist societies and those where Apostolic Christianity continuous to influence the lfe of people.

I'd be careful about labeling it a Protestant-Capitalist thing, remember these ideals started in France which has never been Protestant and has really never been very Capitalist either. It's more of a Western thing, Catholic or Protestant, Capitalist, Socialist, or even Monarchist any more.
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« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2006, 10:31:06 PM »

My daughter is "in love" with a boy/man who is almost 21, she is almost 17.  in a few years, fine, my hub is 9 years older than me (though that is a problem sometimes if for nothing else than  "oh do you remember this or that", and me going, "no dear, I wasn't born yet/I was three".  BUT while he thankfully lives hours away, she is not meeting boys her age , talking to them, except as friends, turns down all offers to go out because she is "taken" by someone she has seen three times in three years and only met when she was 13!

She'll learn eventually.  I don't think the guy is living like a monk while they are separated, if ya know what I mean.  Mom's intuition.

I just think it (in your case) is too big an age difference, generationally.  Especially until she is 18.
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« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2006, 11:40:18 PM »

I guess not all Americans think 15 is too young.  In this story the girl is 15 and the man is 38.  Yuck.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/15/teen.marriage.ap.ap/index.html

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« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2006, 11:43:19 PM »

Muhammed was 50 when he married his 7 year old wife. Of course, he had the dignity to wait till she was 9 to have sex with her.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2006, 10:15:54 AM »

I guess not all Americans think 15 is too young.ÂÂ  In this story the girl is 15 and the man is 38.ÂÂ  Yuck.

A story like that can lead to a look at the WHY of older males wanting such a younger woman.  For instance, is it a question of control?  of having a female who won't question or expect too much? I suspect that it ISN'T any case of wanting a younger more fertile woman to make lots fo babies for example. Undecided

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« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2006, 01:55:32 PM »

A story like that can lead to a look at the WHY of older males wanting such a younger woman.ÂÂ  For instance, is it a question of control?ÂÂ  of having a female who won't question or expect too much? I suspect that it ISN'T any case of wanting a younger more fertile woman to make lots fo babies for example. Undecided

Though such an age range as 15 and 34 is certainly out of the norm, the preference of men for younger women and of women for older men is not out of the norm as demonstrated by Kenrick & Keefe (Behavioural and Brain Sciences, 15, 75-133, 1992) (a brief overview of their study along with graphs can be found here http://salmon.psy.plym.ac.uk/year3/PSY339EvolutionaryPsychology/EvolutionaryPsychology.htm#preferredpartnerage )

The rational explination for this is provided in the website I linked to, the female, who produces eggs which are very limited in number and require substantial genetic investment, is primarially concerned with finding males who control more resources, which would in turn allow for the greatest opportunity for the survival of her genetic investment (children). The male, on the other hand, produces sperm, which does not require a great genetic investment, and it, relatively speaking, an unlimited resource. Thus, the primary consideration for a male is fertility, which we usually mistake as beauty (we have evolved to view the characteristics that most likely indicate fertility as beauty). Not that this is always a conscious decision or thought process in either the case of the male or the female (in fact, they usually are not), but they are subconscious subroutines that our brain has evolved to give us maximum opportunity to procreate and have our genes passed on.

Personally I find this despicable, both in the case of the male and the female, but the logic is sound, the argument is rational, and the thesis is well supported by observational evidence. Fortunately monogamy is having an impact in neutralizing these stone age subroutines, but evolution will probably take tens of thousands more years to eliminate them completely; unless, of course, we end up helping evolution along with a bit of genetic engineering Grin
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« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2006, 03:25:57 PM »

Mexican,

Please excuse some of the comments on this thread.  They don't understand that some cultures equip girls at a younger age to marry, while their own culture merely prepares them for numerous sexual encounters before finding their "soul mate," who will remain so for at least six months.  They fail to realize that some more traditional cultures use social and familial structures to maintain proper (or at least controlled) behaviors.  (I am now prepared to read postmodern diatribes about male-dominated societies that oppress women, foolowed by a healthy dose of useless anecdotal "evidence").

Other societies marry much later in life, partially to limit birth rates in isolated environments where a large population can be supported. 

So you thought it would be safe to make a cultural assumption here because it's Orthodox?  Think again.

In the US, women are expected to go to university and work for a period to decide what will make them successful.  In my field, they are expected to "choose" to have one to two children raised by undocumented immigrants, who also keep up with their laundry.  Anything that could interfere with that before this minimum has been achieved , especially anything related to men or pregnancy, is either frowned upon or declared disgusting, as you've seen in this thread.  This is what we've been told by NOW, professors, television, etc. for years.  This is one reason you'll here nuts disparaging the Holy Family.  "Why, your St. Joseph was a pervert!"  Do we go down the list of Jewish/Christian marriages that occurred when the girl was around fifteen?

As you can see from this thread, Mexican, the postmodern/feminist propaganda has been extraordinarily successful.  (I once heard an NPR program in New Jersey where a gay man described having sexual relations with his uncle, a famous writer, while he was a young teenager.  It was certainly not condemned.  Had he been a she I suspect that it would have been strongly condemned and the program not played.  While I don't accuse some on this board for having gone that far, I must, considering their level of indoctrination on the subject, say that I don't accuse them of having gone that far yet.)

However, this girl IS American and she is unlikely to have the same level of maturity (psychological experience as opposed to physical experience) as a Mexican girl.  In opposition to the other who have posted here that she was exercising some level of maturity, I suspect her motivations were more along the lines of what NOW tells a woman to demand from society as opposed to her caring for anything noble or good.
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« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2006, 10:36:40 AM »

Though such an age range as 15 and 34 is certainly out of the norm, the preference of men for younger women and of women for older men is not out of the norm....

I've known about this kind of analysis for a while.  The thing is, that this "programming" may be somewhere deep in the person, but the way it comes out is different. Men I've known who were not, shall we say, interested in monogamy, would talk about women and what was wanted.  They sure weren't looking for young pretty girls because they would be more fertile and thus the man could have lots of children.   Frankly, children were about the farthest thing from their minds.  And some men liked younger women/teenagers because they wouldn't be "uppity", they would do what the man wanted and not make demands (at least that's what they thought. ymmv)  So there was an element of power and control present.   Undecided

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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2006, 11:13:46 AM »

I've known about this kind of analysis for a while.  The thing is, that this "programming" may be somewhere deep in the person, but the way it comes out is different. Men I've known who were not, shall we say, interested in monogamy, would talk about women and what was wanted.  They sure weren't looking for young pretty girls because they would be more fertile and thus the man could have lots of children.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Frankly, children were about the farthest thing from their minds.  And some men liked younger women/teenagers because they wouldn't be "uppity", they would do what the man wanted and not make demands (at least that's what they thought. ymmv)  So there was an element of power and control present.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Undecided

Ebor


I agree.  And these older guys get these young girls pregnant and then leave them high and dry.  I've seen this happen to a few of my middle school students (Mexicans, btw...the girls and the men).  Parents don't want their young daughters hanging out with men but often can't exert any meaningful chaperone control as they work all the time to make ends meet.  These girls are easy prey not only because they are getting attention, but because they are naive enough to believe the lies these men feed them to lure them into sleeping with them.

I don't care what culture a person is from they are susceptible to self-gratification, sin, and a total lack of responsiblity and repentance for their actions.
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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2006, 11:24:03 AM »

I've known about this kind of analysis for a while.  The thing is, that this "programming" may be somewhere deep in the person, but the way it comes out is different. Men I've known who were not, shall we say, interested in monogamy, would talk about women and what was wanted.  They sure weren't looking for young pretty girls because they would be more fertile and thus the man could have lots of children.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Frankly, children were about the farthest thing from their minds.  And some men liked younger women/teenagers because they wouldn't be "uppity", they would do what the man wanted and not make demands (at least that's what they thought. ymmv)  So there was an element of power and control present.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Undecided

The argument is, essentially, that we evolved to regard as 'beautiful' those physical characteristics that indicate the highest probability of fertility. This evolved because the men who found these characteristics beautiful are the most likely to procreate, and thus pass on these genes and inclinations. It's not that this is a conscious line of reasoning when one is considering mating, but rather a sub-conscious impulse one that is hardwired into us.
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