Author Topic: Honor thy father and mother...  (Read 544 times)

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Offline Ainnir

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Honor thy father and mother...
« on: May 27, 2016, 08:03:29 PM »
To what extent do we do this, as adult offspring who are ourselves parents?  Does proximity play a part?  How does one set boundaries while honoring one's parents?  What happens when philosophies on "respecting elders" are diametrically opposed?

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2016, 09:24:32 PM »
I'm sorry; I ran out of time to edit.  I suppose I don't mean "diametrically opposed" literally.  Just significantly different ideas of how and why we "respect our elders" that leads to different relational dynamics.  I hope that made sense. 

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2016, 10:19:55 PM »
This command has a lot of implications. One of them is taking care of them when they are too old to take care of themselves. So pushing them off on nursing homes to rot would be a violation of the commandment.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2016, 11:52:52 PM »
It's not at that stage yet.  Although you bring up an interesting point. Does any time in a nursing home constitute "pushing them off to rot?" 

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2016, 12:02:30 AM »
It's not at that stage yet.  Although you bring up an interesting point. Does any time in a nursing home constitute "pushing them off to rot?"

My dad made me promise that if he ever got dementia I would put him in a home. He doesn't want to put that kind of burden on me. I don't think there's any shame in putting them in a home if you just can't handle their care- either financially or emotionally.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2016, 12:06:56 AM »
I think putting someone in a home is not equal to 'letting them rot'

Frankly better day to day care and then a child that comes to see them often does not rotting make.

I think you can use a home as a tool in your child's duty to care for a parent.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2016, 12:08:30 AM »
My dad made me promise that if he ever got dementia I would put him in a home. He doesn't want to put that kind of burden on me. I don't think there's any shame in putting them in a home if you just can't handle their care- either financially or emotionally.

Love is long-suffering. They cared for us. They changed our diapers and fed us. No one wants to be a burden. But in the end, as Christians, we have to be willing to be humble enough to let our children serve us in the end. This "not wanting to a burden" mentality is the fuel for euthanasia and the rest, and the reverse of "not wanting to be burdened" is the root of abortion. It's time to be pro-life all the way through. I'm so sick of this culture of convenience. Goodbye pops. Out of sight, out of mind.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2016, 12:15:31 AM »
I think putting someone in a home is not equal to 'letting them rot'

Frankly better day to day care and then a child that comes to see them often does not rotting make.

I think you can use a home as a tool in your child's duty to care for a parent.

There are obviously exceptions. I'm speaking to the norm.

I'm just saying that when it's time to endure feces strewn across the floor, calming down a loved one during violent delusions, etc., there's always a litany of ways to make oneself feel better about handing them off. So few are willing to empty out a room and see them through to the end. Real Christian sacrifice. So rare in my experience.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 12:16:01 AM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2016, 12:18:36 AM »
My dad made me promise that if he ever got dementia I would put him in a home. He doesn't want to put that kind of burden on me. I don't think there's any shame in putting them in a home if you just can't handle their care- either financially or emotionally.

Love is long-suffering. They cared for us. They changed our diapers and fed us. No one wants to be a burden. But in the end, as Christians, we have to be willing to be humble enough to let our children serve us in the end. This "not wanting to a burden" mentality is the fuel for euthanasia and the rest, and the reverse of "not wanting to be burdened" is the root of abortion. It's time to be pro-life all the way through. I'm so sick of this culture of convenience. Goodbye pops. Out of sight, out of mind.

No the fuel for euthanasia is not wanting to force people to suffer because we think they should stay around at all costs, but that's neither here nor there.

I'll agree with Denise, putting someone in a home does not necessarily mean shoving them off.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2016, 12:20:46 AM »
I think putting someone in a home is not equal to 'letting them rot'

Frankly better day to day care and then a child that comes to see them often does not rotting make.

I think you can use a home as a tool in your child's duty to care for a parent.

There are obviously exceptions. I'm speaking to the norm.

I'm just saying that when it's time to endure feces strewn across the floor, calming down a loved one during violent delusions, etc., there's always a litany of ways to make oneself feel better about handing them off. So few are willing to empty out a room and see them through to the end. Real Christian sacrifice. So rare in my experience.

If that's how you feel then I think you're morally obligated to put your money where your mouth is and become an in-home care nurse.

Now. No excuses.



Hire yourself out to help beleaguered children care for their parents.



Or else stop being so judgemental.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 12:21:28 AM by Volnutt »
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2016, 02:17:34 AM »
I think putting someone in a home is not equal to 'letting them rot'

Frankly better day to day care and then a child that comes to see them often does not rotting make.

I think you can use a home as a tool in your child's duty to care for a parent.

There are obviously exceptions. I'm speaking to the norm.

I'm just saying that when it's time to endure feces strewn across the floor, calming down a loved one during violent delusions, etc., there's always a litany of ways to make oneself feel better about handing them off. So few are willing to empty out a room and see them through to the end. Real Christian sacrifice. So rare in my experience.

If that's how you feel then I think you're morally obligated to put your money where your mouth is and become an in-home care nurse.

Now. No excuses.



Hire yourself out to help beleaguered children care for their parents.



Or else stop being so judgemental.

Sometimes I envy your ability to miss the point.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2016, 02:21:06 AM »
I think putting someone in a home is not equal to 'letting them rot'

Frankly better day to day care and then a child that comes to see them often does not rotting make.

I think you can use a home as a tool in your child's duty to care for a parent.

There are obviously exceptions. I'm speaking to the norm.

I'm just saying that when it's time to endure feces strewn across the floor, calming down a loved one during violent delusions, etc., there's always a litany of ways to make oneself feel better about handing them off. So few are willing to empty out a room and see them through to the end. Real Christian sacrifice. So rare in my experience.

If that's how you feel then I think you're morally obligated to put your money where your mouth is and become an in-home care nurse.

Now. No excuses.



Hire yourself out to help beleaguered children care for their parents.



Or else stop being so judgemental.

Sometimes I envy your ability to miss the point.

If he's going to demand that others become their parents live-in caretakers even up to the point of them crapping on the floor, the least he can do is inconvenience himself to help out.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2016, 04:28:36 AM »
Thou shalt not discuss issues like this on internets.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2016, 08:32:38 AM »
Thou shalt not discuss issues like this on internets.

I know, I know.  I do generally agree, actually.  And I'm doing a terrible job of it because the honor part dictates I not be specific in public.  But I'm at a much earlier stage of the game; my kids are 6-10 and we had them early on.  Our parents are a good 20 years away from nursing homes.

I promise, Alveus, I am not contemplating letting my parents rot in a nursing home.  And I have never grumbled about diapers changes.

When I say elders, I mean it in the classic sense--one who is older.  Elder brother, for example.  Elder doesn't mean geriatric, and "old" or "young" in my observation has more to do with spiritual health than birthdates.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2016, 01:20:20 AM »
I think putting someone in a home is not equal to 'letting them rot'

Frankly better day to day care and then a child that comes to see them often does not rotting make.

I think you can use a home as a tool in your child's duty to care for a parent.

There are obviously exceptions. I'm speaking to the norm.

I'm just saying that when it's time to endure feces strewn across the floor, calming down a loved one during violent delusions, etc., there's always a litany of ways to make oneself feel better about handing them off. So few are willing to empty out a room and see them through to the end. Real Christian sacrifice. So rare in my experience.

If that's how you feel then I think you're morally obligated to put your money where your mouth is and become an in-home care nurse.

Now. No excuses.



Hire yourself out to help beleaguered children care for their parents.



Or else stop being so judgemental.

Sometimes I envy your ability to miss the point.

If he's going to demand that others become their parents live-in caretakers even up to the point of them crapping on the floor, the least he can do is inconvenience himself to help out.

"But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

I Timothy 5.8 --> not written by Alveus Lacuna

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2016, 01:44:08 AM »
He didn't write that, but he did write this:

Quote
I'm just saying that when it's time to endure feces strewn across the floor, calming down a loved one during violent delusions, etc., there's always a litany of ways to make oneself feel better about handing them off. So few are willing to empty out a room and see them through to the end. Real Christian sacrifice. So rare in my experience.

Yes, he admits "exceptions" but I have no idea what he could possibly have in mind when the above seems pretty all-encompassing.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 01:54:12 AM by Volnutt »
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2016, 07:51:57 AM »
Ok, let's bring autonomy into this and clarify some, since I am not faced with end of life issues and won't be for decades.  To what extent do we cede our autonomy, and that of our children, to our parents in the name of honor?  Do they inherently have "more" autonomy than us by pure dint of their biological or adoptive ties to us?  If not, then what exactly is honor supposed to look like?  How is it different than common courtesy and respect we are to show everyone anyway?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2016, 08:57:25 AM »
He didn't write that, but he did write this:

Quote
I'm just saying that when it's time to endure feces strewn across the floor, calming down a loved one during violent delusions, etc., there's always a litany of ways to make oneself feel better about handing them off. So few are willing to empty out a room and see them through to the end. Real Christian sacrifice. So rare in my experience.

Yes, he admits "exceptions" but I have no idea what he could possibly have in mind when the above seems pretty all-encompassing.

I know what he said.  I don't think he's really saying anything St Paul would disagree with.  I understood Alveus to be saying that, as a general principle to put into practice, people ought to love and care for their own families to the point of sacrifice.  That's basic Christianity and basic family life. 

Are there exceptions?  Sure.  If I get stabbed, my family is not required to go out to the woods and find some roots and twigs and what not to patch me up because going to the hospital is supposedly a sin.  Caring for me means taking me to someone who can provide what I need most for that problem.  We can absolutely admit a similar principle for long-term health issues as well.  But in America, settling one's elders in "an old folks' home" is not always something you do for the sick with lots of needs so that medical professionals can monitor and help them.  Sometimes it's just to get them out of our way.  The latter is not OK, and it happens a lot more than you think. 

Offline nikolaj

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2016, 06:18:52 PM »
I think the simplest way to put it is:

Luke 6:31 - Do to others as you would have them do to you

Offline eddybear

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2016, 07:48:21 PM »
I think the simplest way to put it is:

Luke 6:31 - Do to others as you would have them do to you

Sometimes the simple answers are the best!

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2016, 06:21:02 PM »
My dad made me promise that if he ever got dementia I would put him in a home. He doesn't want to put that kind of burden on me. I don't think there's any shame in putting them in a home if you just can't handle their care- either financially or emotionally.

Love is long-suffering. They cared for us. They changed our diapers and fed us. No one wants to be a burden. But in the end, as Christians, we have to be willing to be humble enough to let our children serve us in the end. This "not wanting to a burden" mentality is the fuel for euthanasia and the rest, and the reverse of "not wanting to be burdened" is the root of abortion. It's time to be pro-life all the way through. I'm so sick of this culture of convenience. Goodbye pops. Out of sight, out of mind.

I feel the same about cancer patients.  Why on earth are people just foisting off their care on oncologists?  Why aren't they gathered around the hearth, at HOME, where they SHOULD be, praying, like good Christians?
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Offline Ainnir

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2016, 04:40:27 PM »
I think the simplest way to put it is:

Luke 6:31 - Do to others as you would have them do to you

Sometimes the simple answers are the best!

Any other suggestions?  Not sure that one's working.

Offline nikolaj

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Re: Honor thy father and mother...
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2016, 05:07:12 PM »
I think the simplest way to put it is:

Luke 6:31 - Do to others as you would have them do to you

Sometimes the simple answers are the best!

Any other suggestions?  Not sure that one's working.

I understand you do have children of your own