Author Topic: Meanwhile in Holy Russia  (Read 1396 times)

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Offline mike

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Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« on: September 14, 2016, 03:23:31 PM »
70% of pregnancies end in abortions in Russia - expert
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=13262
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2016, 04:27:29 PM »
I'm more horrified by the high rate in Greece, which didn't have a godless regime indoctrinating the populace for decades.
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Offline mike

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2016, 04:38:44 PM »
I'm more horrified by the high rate in Greece, which didn't have a godless regime indoctrinating the populace for decades.

Greece has 5-7 times less abortions than Russia.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 04:41:15 PM by mike »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2016, 05:32:12 PM »
I'm more horrified by the high rate in Greece, which didn't have a godless regime indoctrinating the populace for decades.

Greece has 5-7 times less abortions than Russia.
and has spent an infinite less time under a godless regime indoctrinating the populace.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2016, 08:11:10 PM »
Is this the appropriate response to massacre of infants? "They do it too"? God forbid. Lord, have mercy.
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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2016, 08:52:50 PM »
Any actual data to back up any of those numbers? Otherwise it sounds about as trustworthy as "4 out of 5 doctors recommend Kruschev Clinic for all your unwanted pregnancy needs! The 5th had to take care of an emergency in Siberia..."

Not that any number greater than zero is really acceptable here. Lord have mercy indeed!
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Offline mike

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2016, 12:01:24 AM »
Any actual data to back up any of those numbers? Otherwise it sounds about as trustworthy as "4 out of 5 doctors recommend Kruschev Clinic for all your unwanted pregnancy needs! The 5th had to take care of an emergency in Siberia..."

It's a Russian state news agency?
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2016, 12:21:58 AM »
Shameful, while many great things are happening in Russia, that nation still got a long way to go to truly become Christ like. Still as for us Americans on here, are we any better? Our nation promotes both sodomy, and baby killing.

Offline mike

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2016, 12:27:59 AM »
while many great things are happening in Russia,

lol

Quote
Still as for us Americans on here, are we any better?

As for abortion? 3.5 times better.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 12:28:12 AM by mike »
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2016, 12:41:19 AM »
while many great things are happening in Russia,

lol

Quote
Still as for us Americans on here, are we any better?

As for abortion? 3.5 times better.

You seem to not like Russia a lot, Why? As far 3.5 times better that only official statics, there many abortions done off the record.

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2016, 01:08:13 AM »
We have way more McDonald's restaurants than Russia.  We win!
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Offline vorgos

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2016, 02:20:00 AM »
I wonder how much contraception plays a role in this. Is contraception frowned upon or disliked in these countries for example hence the large number of unwanted pregnancies? Perhaps is it the lack of promotion it gets through the educational systems as in the west?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2016, 11:01:42 AM »
Then consider the terrible misogyny and abuse at least in urban centers. Life in Russia is not easy. The Church has much to do to prove itself the friend of mankind.
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Offline mike

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2016, 11:52:50 AM »
I wonder how much contraception plays a role in this. Is contraception frowned upon or disliked in these countries for example hence the large number of unwanted pregnancies? Perhaps is it the lack of promotion it gets through the educational systems as in the west?

From what I understand abortion is considered a form of contraception. Fairly popular because it's funded by the state, 100% effective, and you do not need to worry about it beforehand.
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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2016, 02:26:20 PM »
70% of pregnancies end in abortions in Russia - expert
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=13262
Which is why it should be made illegal and punishable.

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2016, 05:02:34 PM »
Quote
In terms of bulk numbers, Russians have a greater number of marriages, divorces and abortions per capita than any other developed country. These statistics document an impetus to do whatever it takes to act upon emotions, and often at the cost of one’s own comfort. Russian romance is closely accompanied by substance abuse, domestic violence and abandoned children: the by-products of lives that were never really thought‑through very clearly. Apparently, believing in fate each time you fall in love is not such a great alternative to excessive choice.

https://aeon.co/essays/russia-against-the-western-way-of-love
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2016, 05:15:10 PM »
Any actual data to back up any of those numbers? Otherwise it sounds about as trustworthy as "4 out of 5 doctors recommend Kruschev Clinic for all your unwanted pregnancy needs! The 5th had to take care of an emergency in Siberia..."

It's a Russian state news agency?
but the woman giving the figure is not.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline mike

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2016, 12:11:11 AM »
Any actual data to back up any of those numbers? Otherwise it sounds about as trustworthy as "4 out of 5 doctors recommend Kruschev Clinic for all your unwanted pregnancy needs! The 5th had to take care of an emergency in Siberia..."

It's a Russian state news agency?
but the woman giving the figure is not.

So you tell me, why one of the biggest tubes of Russian propaganda would have published it if it had been fake?
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2016, 12:20:53 AM »
Any actual data to back up any of those numbers? Otherwise it sounds about as trustworthy as "4 out of 5 doctors recommend Kruschev Clinic for all your unwanted pregnancy needs! The 5th had to take care of an emergency in Siberia..."

It's a Russian state news agency?
but the woman giving the figure is not.

So you tell me, why one of the biggest tubes of Russian propaganda would have published it if it had been fake?
Quote
Russia outlaws abortion ads
Abortions are legal in Russia and have been since Soviet times, but currently centrist-conservative lawmakers want to limit or completely ban such practices saying it is partly responsible for the country's dwindling population.

In early October an official representative of the Russian Orthodox Church blasted abortions and surrogacy as “mutiny against God” and less than a month later the head of the Lower House committee for family and children, Yelena Mizulina, said in a speech that the community must urgently stop tolerating abortions and surrogacy as they threaten to wipe out the population in Russia, and the world as a whole.

The move gained little support from other politicians and shortly afterwards Mizulina played down her statements saying that she wanted to draw attention to the problem and start a discussion, not introduce any legislative limitations.
https://www.rt.com/politics/russia-abortion-advertising-ban-266/

You seem to always insinuate that the Russian Government lies, but somehow here they are telling the absolute truth (which they may- I took no stand on that).
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Offline mike

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2016, 12:25:10 AM »
You seem to always insinuate that the Russian Government lies, but somehow here they are telling the absolute truth (which they may- I took no stand on that).

When a source publishes a newspiece praising itself I take it with a doubt. When a source publishes a newpiece downgrading itself, I tend to take it as true. Before I read anything about news I first think, who, why, and when wrote it, and not only about Russian sources but in general. And only later I look more deeply in the content.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2016, 12:30:29 AM »
You seem to always insinuate that the Russian Government lies, but somehow here they are telling the absolute truth (which they may- I took no stand on that).

When a source publishes a newspiece praising itself I take it with a doubt. When a source publishes a newpiece downgrading itself, I tend to take it as true. Before I read anything about news I first think, who, why, and when wrote it, and not only about Russian sources but in general. And only later I look more deeply in the content.
and you didn't do that this time why?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline mike

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2016, 12:38:12 AM »
You seem to always insinuate that the Russian Government lies, but somehow here they are telling the absolute truth (which they may- I took no stand on that).

When a source publishes a newspiece praising itself I take it with a doubt. When a source publishes a newpiece downgrading itself, I tend to take it as true. Before I read anything about news I first think, who, why, and when wrote it, and not only about Russian sources but in general. And only later I look more deeply in the content.
and you didn't do that this time why?

I did actually. And only two reasons came to my mind why would Interfax have published it if it had been fake (but it's not):

a) the real numbers are worse
b) they consider abortion a nbd whatsoever
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2016, 01:19:39 AM »
You seem to always insinuate that the Russian Government lies, but somehow here they are telling the absolute truth (which they may- I took no stand on that).

When a source publishes a newspiece praising itself I take it with a doubt. When a source publishes a newpiece downgrading itself, I tend to take it as true. Before I read anything about news I first think, who, why, and when wrote it, and not only about Russian sources but in general. And only later I look more deeply in the content.
and you didn't do that this time why?

I did actually. And only two reasons came to my mind why would Interfax have published it if it had been fake (but it's not):

a) the real numbers are worse
b) they consider abortion a nbd whatsoever
so you just came up short.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2016, 01:54:43 AM »
nvm
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 01:55:20 AM by RaphaCam »
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Offline BrotherBoris

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2016, 04:22:39 AM »
Seriously, I wonder how much the housing shortage in Russia contributes to the high abortion figures.  I watched a program on Russia Today where they said that most Russians live in small apartments that consist of two rooms, with a tiny kitchen and a tiny bathroom.  If that is accurate, how could the average Russian family even have room to raise more than two children?

I also wonder how available birth control pills are in Russia.  If they are not readily available, that combined with the housing supply would tend to result in a lot of unwanted pregnancies for women living in tight, small cramped living spaces. 

And what is the cost of living like in Russia?  Are two incomes necessary in most cases for parents to raise children?  How hard is it to get a larger apartment if a Russian family wants to have more children and needs more space?

All of these issues would contribute to a higher abortion rate.

I wonder how much improving the the living conditions of the Russian people might contribute to lowering the abortion rate?

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2016, 07:17:14 AM »
Russia is still dealing with the legacy of 70 years of godless, dehumanizing communism. Unrestricted abortion was one of the hallmarks of that system. Great progress is being made by Putin and the United Russia Party in shoring up social values in the state; an overnight blanket ban on abortion would exacerbate an already tense situation, with foreign-funded radical feminist groups taking to the streets as part of the West's attempts to destabilize Putin's government. Give it time - Russia needs a higher birthrate, and, in concert with the Church, Putin will put an end to this.

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2016, 07:59:25 AM »
"Give it time..." Such words demonstrate naïveté and also unwittingly show that you do not consider abortion as serious an issue as you claim. Blaming western-backed outside agitators is of course the cliched icing on the cake.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
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Offline mike

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2016, 09:36:30 AM »
I started this thread to watch defenders of Holy Russia doing some mental and moral gymnastics to argue it's nbd whatsoever. I cannot say I am disappointed.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2016, 09:46:53 AM by mike »
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2016, 01:19:16 PM »
I started this thread to watch defenders of Holy Russia doing some mental and moral gymnastics to argue it's nbd whatsoever. I cannot say I am disappointed.
It is a big deal. Its tragic. All the more reason for the Church to have an increased presence in daily Russian life.

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2016, 01:22:20 PM »
Imagine if a government allowed its citizens to exterminate undesired neighbors in legally sanctioned death camps, and the best defense that government's apologists could come up with were, "It's terrible, but they're working on it."
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Saxon

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2016, 06:01:06 PM »
"Give it time..." Such words demonstrate naïveté and also unwittingly show that you do not consider abortion as serious an issue as you claim. Blaming western-backed outside agitators is of course the cliched icing on the cake.

Talking points straight out of George Soros' playbook. I take abortion to be an issue of grave consequence to the future of Christian civilization. An overnight blanket ban on abortion would result in the militant feminist lobby taking to the streets and could be a catalyst in propelling regime change in Russia - regime change that anyone who opposes abortion wouldn't like. The government has tabled some increased restrictions on abortion, and last month the Church released a petition for it to be banned. Incremental steps are key.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2016, 06:04:22 PM »
So, wait, do you think abortion is a form of murder, or just "an issue of grave consequence to the future of Christian civilization"? 
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Offline biro

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2016, 06:05:58 PM »
The hell does George Soros have to do with anything?
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Offline Saxon

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2016, 06:11:18 PM »
So, wait, do you think abortion is a form of murder, or just "an issue of grave consequence to the future of Christian civilization"?

The two are kind of inextricably linked - legalized infanticide is a regression back into pre-Christian Roman barbarism. Unless you're suggestion that permitting the murder of the unborn is of no consequence to Christians?

The hell does George Soros have to do with anything?

Denying the fact that the West takes an adversarial approach to Russia, including provision of funds and moral support to radical feminist groups and other anti-Putin elements, while repudiating the idea that Russia is that Holy "other" to the increasingly godless and secular West, is globalist nonsense straight out of his playbook.

Offline biro

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2016, 06:12:33 PM »
So, wait, do you think abortion is a form of murder, or just "an issue of grave consequence to the future of Christian civilization"?

The two are kind of inextricably linked - legalized infanticide is a regression back into pre-Christian Roman barbarism. Unless you're suggestion that permitting the murder of the unborn is of no consequence to Christians?

The hell does George Soros have to do with anything?

Denying the fact that the West takes an adversarial approach to Russia, including provision of funds and moral support to radical feminist groups and other anti-Putin elements, while repudiating the idea that Russia is that Holy "other" to the increasingly godless and secular West, is globalist nonsense straight out of his playbook.

When you return from the fog, let us know.

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Offline Saxon

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2016, 06:15:02 PM »
So, wait, do you think abortion is a form of murder, or just "an issue of grave consequence to the future of Christian civilization"?

The two are kind of inextricably linked - legalized infanticide is a regression back into pre-Christian Roman barbarism. Unless you're suggestion that permitting the murder of the unborn is of no consequence to Christians?

The hell does George Soros have to do with anything?

Denying the fact that the West takes an adversarial approach to Russia, including provision of funds and moral support to radical feminist groups and other anti-Putin elements, while repudiating the idea that Russia is that Holy "other" to the increasingly godless and secular West, is globalist nonsense straight out of his playbook.

When you return from the fog, let us know.

You can spout dismissals like that all you want; they're not arguments nor do they bring anything of substance to the debate. But thanks for coming out.  :D

Offline Avdima

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2016, 07:30:16 PM »
Russia is still dealing with the legacy of 70 years of godless, dehumanizing communism. Unrestricted abortion was one of the hallmarks of that system.

Not so much, Comrade Stalin banned abortion, and afterwards and more Liberal government came in and lifted the ban. However the USSR government actively tried to promote motherhood over abortion because they really wanted and needed population growth.

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“measures carried out by the Soviet state to encourage motherhood and protect infancy, as well as the uninterrupted growth of the consciousness and culturedness of women,”

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2016, 08:08:50 PM »
"Give it time..." Such words demonstrate naïveté and also unwittingly show that you do not consider abortion as serious an issue as you claim. Blaming western-backed outside agitators is of course the cliched icing on the cake.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-russia.html

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/russian-pro-life-initiatives-turning-the-tide-abortion-rate-is-plummeting

http://rbth.com/society/2014/01/28/russia_seeks_to_further_decrease_abortion_rates_33543.html

http://www.dw.com/en/russia-ponders-restrictions-on-abortion-rights/a-18509939

I started this thread to watch defenders of Holy Russia doing some mental and moral gymnastics to argue it's nbd whatsoever. I cannot say I am disappointed.

That's pretty retarded. The reason is obvious, no need for mental gymnastics.
It's you who need some brain gym in order to justify what's going in the West:

http://www.operationrescue.org/about-abortion/abortions-in-america/

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-france.html

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-unitedkingdom.html

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-spain.html

(I gotta say, though, Poland is interesting: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-poland.html)
Death to the world dodos.

Offline AClaire11

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2016, 08:41:16 PM »
Seriously, I wonder how much the housing shortage in Russia contributes to the high abortion figures.  I watched a program on Russia Today where they said that most Russians live in small apartments that consist of two rooms, with a tiny kitchen and a tiny bathroom.  If that is accurate, how could the average Russian family even have room to raise more than two children?

I also wonder how available birth control pills are in Russia.  If they are not readily available, that combined with the housing supply would tend to result in a lot of unwanted pregnancies for women living in tight, small cramped living spaces. 

And what is the cost of living like in Russia?  Are two incomes necessary in most cases for parents to raise children?  How hard is it to get a larger apartment if a Russian family wants to have more children and needs more space?

All of these issues would contribute to a higher abortion rate.

I wonder how much improving the the living conditions of the Russian people might contribute to lowering the abortion rate?

I studied abroad in Russia and also spent six weeks in Siberia. In the cities, the apartments are as you describe and very old. It's considered very odd to have more than one or two children. And I heard that Russian men are generally adverse to wearing protection, so contraception may indeed be a factor. Out in Siberia, conditions can be very primitive compared to what we're used to and many are very poor. I was volunteering for a charity running some children's camps and there was no running water in many places and a lot of the children only had one pair of shoes, one outfit, etc.  Not that there are not poor and homeless in the cities. I often saw orphans and other destitute people in the metro buildings, some had even fallen asleep standing up from exhaustion. Alcoholism is also a factor, I'm sure.

My knowledge on modern Russian economics and sociology is limited, so I am unable to answer all your questions. But I think you're on the right track.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2016, 10:48:40 AM »
The hell does George Soros have to do with anything?

Invoking George Soros seems to be the new Godwin rule for right wing online polemicists.
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But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2016, 11:04:26 AM »
The hell does George Soros have to do with anything?

Invoking George Soros seems to be the new Godwin rule for right wing online polemicists.

Soros is to right-wing polemicists what the Koch Bros are to left-wing polemicists.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2016, 11:14:30 AM »
Please note that the sources can hardly be called government outlets...

www.rt.com
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Meanwhile in Holy Russia
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2016, 11:28:27 AM »
The Nation article is pretty interesting, but the overall thrust seems to be that the pro-life movement needs to rely on voluntary, persuasive means (crisis pregnancy centers, counseling, etc), with some legal tweaks (eg requiring ultrasound) because an outright ban will not happen in the foreseeable future. It's also interesting to note the Soviet Union's previous attempt to ban abortion and the reasons for its subsequent reversal.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles