Author Topic: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers  (Read 43916 times)

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Offline CRCulver

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #225 on: November 20, 2006, 03:15:54 PM »
Was St. John Chrysostom married? If we follow this logic, we should also reject St. John Chrysostom's teaching on contraception and abortifacients as being unauthoritative.

My point was that within the Church birth control, when permitted, is permitted only between married couples. Therefore, it makes no sense for a single person to argue about it, it doesn't concern him. St John Chrysostom, on the other hand, was a clergyman with responsibility for his flock.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 03:17:55 PM by CRCulver »

Offline GiC

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #226 on: November 20, 2006, 06:22:13 PM »
My point was that within the Church birth control, when permitted, is permitted only between married couples. Therefore, it makes no sense for a single person to argue about it, it doesn't concern him. St John Chrysostom, on the other hand, was a clergyman with responsibility for his flock.

Any issue that is even claimed to be theological by anyone concerns everyone. Though your statements bring up an interesting question. Should a sexually active single person use contraception? If not, why?
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #227 on: November 22, 2006, 04:32:39 PM »
Should a sexually active single person use contraception? If not, why?
More importantly, should the Church gives it's approval to either the sexual activity outside of marriage or the use of contraception.

I've certainly seen nothing to suggest that it does.

Offline GiC

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #228 on: November 22, 2006, 05:22:07 PM »
More importantly, should the Church gives it's approval to either the sexual activity outside of marriage or the use of contraception.

I've certainly seen nothing to suggest that it does.

I fear you're begging the question. I dont think there is any dispute as to whether or not sex outside of marriage is immoral. But if it is a given, as is often the case, why do you recommend against contraception in particular.
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #229 on: November 24, 2006, 11:19:39 AM »
I dont think there is any dispute as to whether or not sex outside of marriage is immoral. But if it is a given, as is often the case, why do you recommend against contraception in particular.
If it is a given, as you suggest, then the question becomes whether or not one should conduct themselves so as to suggest approval. I believe it is wrong for an Orthodox Christian to ever suggest they are acquiescing to sin.

Offline GiC

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #230 on: November 24, 2006, 11:47:39 AM »
If it is a given, as you suggest, then the question becomes whether or not one should conduct themselves so as to suggest approval. I believe it is wrong for an Orthodox Christian to ever suggest they are acquiescing to sin.

It is not necessary to acquiesce to a sin in order to pragmatically deal with the reality of a situation. It is not that difficult to express one's dissatisfaction without alienating the person involved and then actually addressing the practical implications without even giving the façade of moral agreement. What I am asking is not whether one should convey approval but whether one should encourage life-saving disease prevention despite moral disagreement.
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Offline Bono Vox

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #231 on: November 27, 2006, 10:41:37 PM »
Elder Cleopa of Romania said that Canonical persons who fornicate should be excommunicated for at least 3 years. This comes from an extreemley gracious, pious man, who will probably be cannonized as a saint. This 3 years is under the assumption that the person is in deep repentance over what they have done. In my observation over the years, I wonder if many of the Orthodox churches have become too permissive to fornicators in the church. Elder Cleopa said that this was all based from the cannons. What do y'all say???

As for me, if a person if fornicating, it makes no difference whether they use contraceptives because they are living in sin. What does it matter?? It would probably be better for them to use contraceptives because the last thing they need is to bring a child into the world.

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Offline GiC

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #232 on: November 28, 2006, 12:10:49 AM »
Elder Cleopa of Romania said that Canonical persons who fornicate should be excommunicated for at least 3 years. This comes from an extreemley gracious, pious man, who will probably be cannonized as a saint. This 3 years is under the assumption that the person is in deep repentance over what they have done. In my observation over the years, I wonder if many of the Orthodox churches have become too permissive to fornicators in the church. Elder Cleopa said that this was all based from the cannons. What do y'all say???

Of course such a penance would be absurd and harmful in our modern cultural context; however, with that said Cleopa here is being far more lenient than the strictness of the canons which canonizes fornicators for between 7 and 10 years depending on the synod or father.

Quote
As for me, if a person if fornicating, it makes no difference whether they use contraceptives because they are living in sin. What does it matter?? It would probably be better for them to use contraceptives because the last thing they need is to bring a child into the world.

Which is in large part the point of the arguments I have put forward, if someone has made up their minds to live in sin it is very likely that there is nothing one can do to change that. But we still have a moral responsibility to look out for the physical well-being of said person.
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #233 on: November 28, 2006, 08:48:34 AM »
In my observation over the years, I wonder if many of the Orthodox churches have become too permissive to fornicators in the church.
It's pretty clear that the people in the Church have become far more tolerant of sin. One needs only review some of the posts here to see some even support the idea of parades where people declare themselves proud of their sin.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #234 on: November 28, 2006, 08:57:52 AM »
One needs only review some of the posts here to see some even support the idea of parades where people declare themselves proud of their sin.
You mean those people on this thread who opposed the idea of the Orthodox Church aligning itself with NeoNazi fascist thugs?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 08:58:19 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #235 on: November 28, 2006, 10:11:00 AM »
You mean those people on this thread who opposed the idea of the Orthodox Church aligning itself with NeoNazi fascist thugs?
Ah, so now anyone who holds the traditional Orthodox Christian teaching on homosexuality is a "NeoNazi fascist thug" eh?

Fascinating.  :-\

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #236 on: November 28, 2006, 04:44:03 PM »
Ah, so now anyone who holds the traditional Orthodox Christian teaching on homosexuality is a "NeoNazi fascist thug" eh?

 ??? Errr....No.....
Sorry, but I thought you read the original article posted in this thread, but obviously you haven't, so let me explain:
Skinheads are NeoNazi fascist thugs. Or do you consider them to be keepers of "the traditional Orthodox Christian teaching" in your Church?
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #237 on: November 28, 2006, 07:28:13 PM »
So if skinheads come out in favor of abstinence before marriage, you expect the Church to suddenly oppose it?

Of course not! Likewise, all Orthodox Christians should be the keepers of the traditional teachings of OUR Church.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2006, 07:29:16 PM by BoredMeeting »

Offline zebu

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #238 on: November 28, 2006, 08:23:25 PM »
So if skinheads come out in favor of abstinence before marriage, you expect the Church to suddenly oppose it?

Of course not! Likewise, all Orthodox Christians should be the keepers of the traditional teachings of OUR Church.
The point is, what those people were doing was not Christian, it was not done in love.  Protesting gays is not going to win them for Christ!  It's going to bring them farther from Jesus because they will think those skinheads represent the Church, and since the skinheads are clearly filled with HATE for gays, then gays will think the Church is likewise filled with hatred.  All correction must be done in love or it's not really Christian.
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Offline BoredMeeting

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #239 on: November 29, 2006, 10:19:00 AM »
All correction must be done in love or it's not really Christian.
It would seem that some of the posters reject the concept that any correction is required at all and that's a concept that any Orthodox Christian must reject.

Offline antiderivative

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #240 on: June 01, 2008, 05:26:24 PM »
I think ever since the Soviet Union fell, Russia has tried to restore it's Orthodoxy and pre-revolutionary culture. While it's a good thing for them to have certain freedoms, they probably feel threatened by Western philosophies trying to enter the country. This is why it's hard for Protestant and Catholic missionaries there. I certainly disagree with Russian's religious restrictions on Protestants and Catholics, but really, does the Russian government really think any Orthodox Christian will fall for a 45 minute Bible study, sitting down, and only twice a week, to the Divine Liturgy?

The same effect is on Homosexuals. While much of the West has tried to turn the gay pride movement into some sort of 1964 civil rights movement, Eastern European culture is very different. Notice that almost all supporters of this gay pride march in Moscow were people from America, Canada, and Western Europe! And only persecuting this movement will turn it into a crusade and Westerners will make a big deal of it.

The advantage of allowing these parades is that it might prevent it from getting bigger. If the event isn't illegal, than the parade will be boring to go to in the first place. The disadvantage of allowing the parade is that Moscow citizens may attack it and further it's media attention and Western sympathy. Maybe the mayor could just say it's not allowed do to the safety of the protesters.

Showing it hostility will only put a bad name on Orthodox Christians, especially for what little Westerners know of them.
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Offline JustinianPrima

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #241 on: June 01, 2008, 05:58:22 PM »
We cannot expect the government to take over our mission for us. Dare I say, Spiritual Welfare? I would much rather have a Christian support a government that will not obstruct 'immorality' knowing full well that it is our job 'fix' this through the Church and means given and revealed to us.

Love is not always a pleasant attribute. Sometimes in order to love someone, you must tell them: you're wrong, get a job, you're grounded, get out of bed and eat or you'll die -as we should do to ourselves when we attempt to love ourselves.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2008, 06:03:00 PM by JustinianPrima »
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Offline Bono Vox

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #242 on: June 05, 2008, 05:03:12 PM »
It would seem that some of the posters reject the concept that any correction is required at all and that's a concept that any Orthodox Christian must reject.


Exactamundo!  8)
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O Sebastian, spurning the assemblies of the wicked,You gathered the wise martyrs Who with you cast down the enemy; And standing worthily before the throne of God, You gladden those who cry to you:Glory to him who has strengthened you! Glory to him who has granted you a crown!

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #243 on: September 27, 2009, 05:55:36 PM »
ÂÂ  Am I the only one who finds it disturbing that Orthodox Christians are amoung extremist bigots?ÂÂ  

No. You're not the only one.

Ditto!

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #244 on: September 27, 2009, 11:04:19 PM »
^ So do you have something to add, or do you just enjoy resurrecting long-dormant threads for no good reason?
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #245 on: September 27, 2009, 11:15:23 PM »
^ So do you have something to add, or do you just enjoy resurrecting long-dormant threads for no good reason?
I just joined Politics and was going through the several treads. I felt the need to reassure Zoe. You gave problems with being succinct?

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #246 on: September 27, 2009, 11:22:41 PM »
^ So do you have something to add, or do you just enjoy resurrecting long-dormant threads for no good reason?
I just joined Politics and was going through the several treads. I felt the need to reassure Zoe. You gave problems with being succinct?
1. This isn't the Politics forum.
2. Zoe hasn't logged on in over a year, and so is unlikely to be reassured by your post.
3. Your post had nothing of substance. Being succinct is making a point in very few words, and therefore in order to be succinct, one must actually make a point.

Look, I've got nothing against resurrecting a thread if you have something to add, but if you don't, just smile and move on.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #247 on: September 28, 2009, 01:08:54 AM »
Look, I've got nothing against resurrecting a thread if you have something to add, but if you don't, just smile and move on.

^ Yeah!

Offline Papist

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Re: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers
« Reply #248 on: September 28, 2009, 01:40:02 PM »
^ So do you have something to add, or do you just enjoy resurrecting long-dormant threads for no good reason?
I just joined Politics and was going through the several treads. I felt the need to reassure Zoe. You gave problems with being succinct?
1. This isn't the Politics forum.
2. Zoe hasn't logged on in over a year, and so is unlikely to be reassured by your post.
3. Your post had nothing of substance. Being succinct is making a point in very few words, and therefore in order to be succinct, one must actually make a point.

Look, I've got nothing against resurrecting a thread if you have something to add, but if you don't, just smile and move on.
unless you want this old thread to continue, then smile and move on.  ;D
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