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Author Topic: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers  (Read 40478 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2006, 10:04:42 AM »

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Just because you are a minority with no voice or influence in the west, it doesnt follow that we should welcome the secularization of our societies on the basis that the Church will survive anyway.  Ive no doubt the Church will survive no matter what, it doesnt mean that we should actively make things more difficult for ourselves.

My point is that you are already fighting the wrong battle.  A growing diaspora, plus Greece, Romania and Bulgaria are/will be part of the EU or another similar Western society. 

Quote
God has and will send us enough challenges, without us having to concoct new ones of our own.

He has also sent us massive opportunities.  The apostles used the benefits of the Roman Empire (common language in Koine Greek, ease of transportation etc.) to convert an HOSTILE empire to Christianity.  There is no reason to not use the common languages of Western societies (English, but also German and French), improved transportation and information technology to evangelize. 
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« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2006, 10:15:36 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9156.msg123178#msg123178 date=1149602682]
My point is that you are already fighting the wrong battle.ÂÂ  A growing diaspora, plus Greece, Romania and Bulgaria are/will be part of the EU or another similar Western society.ÂÂ  

He has also sent us massive opportunities.ÂÂ  The apostles used the benefits of the Roman Empire (common language in Koine Greek, ease of transportation etc.) to convert an HOSTILE empire to Christianity.ÂÂ  There is no reason to not use the common languages of Western societies (English, but also German and French), improved transportation and information technology to evangelize.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

Nicely put.  I think both you and SP are correct.  It's like the Yin and the Yang.
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« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2006, 12:04:07 PM »

Well, when I read the post about what happened in Romania, and saw Nacho's reply, I couldn't help thinking that it seemed a bit odd. I might have read too much into it, though.

If people want to , eh, "look fruity marching down the street", organizing protests where a mob-mentality might take over is not the way to go. Legalizing gay "marriage" , et cetera is definitely not the way to go either, I believe the question needs to be adressed on a different level.  In this case, I think the pen might be mightier than the egg and the rock. And yes, I do believe everyone deserves respect no matter their ideology or their actions. But then again, my mind clearly has been poisoned by hippie relativism, so what do I know.   Tongue
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« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2006, 04:48:22 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9156.msg123178#msg123178 date=1149602682]
My point is that you are already fighting the wrong battle.ÂÂ  A growing diaspora, plus Greece, Romania and Bulgaria are/will be part of the EU or another similar Western society.ÂÂ  [/quote]

I dont understand why you keep bringing up Romania's and Bulgaria's integration so often. Does it mean that their livestyles will dramatically improve? not necassarily. The EU itself is in a bit of a shamble, look at the new EU constitution that has been thrown around like garbage. The EU looks alot like the Roman Empire to me; trying to rule lots of land and ethnicities. Well we obviously know it didnt work out very well now did it? And what on earth does a growing diaspora have to do with this?

Quote
There is no reason to not use the common languages of Western societies (English, but also German and French), improved transportation and information technology to evangelize.ÂÂ  

If you mean the anglosification of the world is OK, I must indeed ask you a question. How many languages can you speak fluently?
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« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2006, 05:47:50 PM »

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I dont understand why you keep bringing up Romania's and Bulgaria's integration so often.

Greece has a population of about 10 million.
Romania has a population of about 22 million.
Bulgaria has a population of about 7 million.

That is a large number of Orthodox Christians living in rapidly Westernizing societies, that is why I think it is important.  Keep in mind there are also large diaspora communities of various ethnicities with a large percentage of Orthodox Christians in Western Europe.  For the sake of those millions of Orthodox Christians, it is important to work on being Orthodox within a pluralistic society. 

Quote
IF you mean the anglosification of the world is OK,

You still arn't getting my point.  English is becoming the international lingua franca (at least for the time being) whether I or anyone else thinks it is ok.  Why not capitalize on that, like how the Apostles preached to the whole Roman Empire because of the linguistic dominance of Koine Greek?

Quote
How many languages can you speak fluently?

One with native level fluency.  If you lower the bar down from fluency to basic communication, I can get by in Greek.  Once I finish my studies at college, my goal is to have a very good grasp of Russian and German - but I'm just starting the intermediate level of studies in both of those.  I'm not sure the real point of your question, though. 
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« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2006, 06:10:48 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9156.msg123223#msg123223 date=1149630470]

One with native level fluency.ÂÂ  If you lower the bar down from fluency to basic communication, I can get by in Greek.ÂÂ  Once I finish my studies at college, my goal is to have a very good grasp of Russian and German - but I'm just starting the intermediate level of studies in both of those.ÂÂ  I'm not sure the real point of your question, though.ÂÂ  

[/quote]

The point of my question is that if YOUR first language was not english, you would understand why many of us are against the TOTAL expansion of the english language. Sure more and more english is being spoken in europe, but the languages beforehand are becoming slowly obsolete. It's amazing to study how languages have become more anglosized over the years. It's easy for YOU to be for the expansion of English, when that is YOUR native language. Do have some sort of understand about what I'm talking about now? I guarentee you that one day the Slavonic Church language will be replaced by English. I just hope that I wont be around by then.

Quote
Greece has a population of about 10 million.
Romania has a population of about 22 million.
Bulgaria has a population of about 7 million.

That is a large number of Orthodox Christians living in rapidly Westernizing societies, that is why I think it is important

And what proof do you have that they are rapidly westernizing? When was the last time you've ever been to Sofia or Bucuresti? You are making extremely generalized assumptions. Joining the EU does not automatically significantly improve lives. Any current improvement in Romania is normal advancements that were just completely stagnated by Communism.
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« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2006, 07:05:30 PM »

Who just watched Dr Phil show on homosexuality ?
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« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2006, 07:29:16 PM »

Who just watched Dr Phil show on homosexuality ?

I did not, but I must say when I saw your line I did get quite a good chuckle.  A Serb watching Dr. Phil???  What is the world coming to??? j/k  Grin
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« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2006, 10:11:09 PM »

I did not, but I must say when I saw your line I did get quite a good chuckle.ÂÂ  A Serb watching Dr. Phil???ÂÂ  What is the world coming to??? j/kÂÂ  Grin

Tisina ti  Wink Actually I really dislike him. Whenever I do watch the show, I watch it so I can think of new ways to make fun of him  Cheesy  I just found it interesting because there was a priest there an he was telling Homosexuals that if they want to, if theyr eally want to, they can turn their lives around. It was interesting because the audience was clapping for him. I'd think the audience would be against him.

What do you watch SS99? Oprah Winfrey?  Tongue
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« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2006, 11:21:06 PM »

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The point of my question is that if YOUR first language was not english, you would understand why many of us are against the TOTAL expansion of the english language.

You point that out as if it is something that is self-evident among non-native English speakers, yet if that were so why is English the most commonly taught foreign language?

Quote
It's amazing to study how languages have become more anglosized over the years. It's easy for YOU to be for the expansion of English, when that is YOUR native language. Do have some sort of understand about what I'm talking about now?

I do understand that you are showing you don't really know much abour the history of languages.  Languages come into contact and share words, even grammar.  Latin dumped plenty of words around Europre when it was the international language, French did as well.  Classical Latin and Greek are the basis for many of the "English" technology vocabulary that is mostly international.  Arabic, Persian, Russian et al. have all contributed greatly to the languages of central Asia.  That's just the way languages and contacts work.  Eventually English will (most likely) be replaced as the international language whenever the next set of political super powers come into being. 

Since you seem to believe so firmly in "purifying" languages from foreign elements, how do you feel about the current linguistic reforms going on with Tatar and other languages within the former USSR? 

Quote
I guarentee you that one day the Slavonic Church language will be replaced by English. I just hope that I wont be around by then.

Not likely to happen in Slavic Orthodox nations.  But, in America - I certainly hope so. 

Some interesting and related stories...

Whem Khomiakov was in correspondence with Anglicans concerning Orthodoxy, he wrote in French - the international language of his day.

In one of the Optina Elder books, it is related that a Turk converted to Orthodoxy and became a monk at Optina.  He confessed and otherwise conversed in French.  I know that Elder Nektary spoke fluent French and was able to communicate Orthodox spirituality to those who would not have otherwise been able to understand Orthodoxy. 

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And what proof do you have that they are rapidly westernizing?

Nothing of course that I say will be good enough.  The retort will simply be that I'm an American and can't understand the situation.  You have simply made up your mind that the Church should not accept the inevitable political situation and find a way to minister to people in spite of it. 
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« Reply #100 on: June 07, 2006, 03:35:24 AM »

Kudos to the mayor and the Orthodox Christians that took to the streets to protests against the perverts bent on perverting yet another society any further.

I can feel the Christian love in this post, I really can.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #101 on: June 07, 2006, 08:32:19 AM »

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I can feel the Christian love in this post, I really can.

I can feel the Christian love in this post, I really can.  Roll Eyes  Plank in eye?
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« Reply #102 on: June 07, 2006, 08:44:13 AM »

What do you watch SS99? Oprah Winfrey?ÂÂ  Tongue
Nah!  Nothing nearly as high classed as Oprah.  I'm more of a Jerry Springer kind of guy!  Shocked
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« Reply #103 on: June 07, 2006, 03:00:28 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9156.msg123178#msg123178 date=1149602682]
My point is that you are already fighting the wrong battle.ÂÂ  A growing diaspora, plus Greece, Romania and Bulgaria are/will be part of the EU or another similar Western society.ÂÂ  [/quote]
I think it might be a losing battle in the short run, but its certainly not the wrong one.  Joining the EU may be inevitable, westernization may be inevitable, but for me the righteousness of the battle is not determined by whether victory is apparent or miniscule.  In any case the ultimate victory is assured.  As Saint Nikolai said: 'Two illogical philosphies: belief in ultimate victory without belief in God, and belief in God without belief in ultimate victory'.

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« Reply #104 on: June 07, 2006, 03:11:25 PM »

Well, when I read the post about what happened in Romania, and saw Nacho's reply, I couldn't help thinking that it seemed a bit odd. I might have read too much into it, though.

If people want to , eh, "look fruity marching down the street", organizing protests where a mob-mentality might take over is not the way to go. Legalizing gay "marriage" , et cetera is definitely not the way to go either, I believe the question needs to be adressed on a different level.  In this case, I think the pen might be mightier than the egg and the rock. And yes, I do believe everyone deserves respect no matter their ideology or their actions. But then again, my mind clearly has been poisoned by hippie relativism, so what do I know.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Tongue
Im glad you werent offended by my comment, and have taken it lightly.  It may have been put a bit disdainfully, but I believe its valid.  That aside, if you honestly believe that everyone deserves respect no matter their ideology or actions, this is fundamentally opposed to Christianity.  Good and evil are battling it out.  What respect can you have for evil people, how can everything that human nature is capable of producing be worthy of respect.  This is what I meant by hippie relativism.  You dont seem to have an idea of absolute right or wrong.  You seem to adhere to the liberal secular philosophy that there is no absolute right or wrong. 
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« Reply #105 on: June 07, 2006, 03:33:03 PM »

I think don't think Sleepyhead meant "everyone" as every possible human on the planet, but those within reason.  How you define that line, might be personal, as I think it would be impossible to "respect" a pedophile.  Needless to say, I don't put homosexuals in the same boat with pedophiles.
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« Reply #106 on: June 07, 2006, 04:02:50 PM »

No, everything that human nature is capable of producing is not worthy respect; if everything human nature is capable of producing would be worthy respect, then we would have to condone sins. However, I can't see how saying that everyone deserves respect would go against Christianity: if man is made in the image of God (now, I might have mixed things up here, but please bear with me), that alone would be a good enough reason to show respect, no matter how sinful the person's actions were. That does not mean that I don't consider their actions sinful. This might sound like nonsense to you, but I hope you get my point: respect the person, but not their sins.

In theory, this is very easy. I too would have great difficulty respecting a pedophile -  I understand that people want to do all kinds of things to sexual predators, but there is a line that I do not want to cross.
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« Reply #107 on: June 07, 2006, 04:24:39 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9156.msg123259#msg123259 date=1149650466]
why is English the most commonly taught foreign language?
[/quote]

English has become one of the most universal languages through military expansion, colonization and total assimilation. That is infact the whole point of the Biritish Empire.

Quote
Since you seem to believe so firmly in "purifying" languages from foreign elements, how do you feel about the current linguistic reforms going on with Tatar and other languages within the former USSR? 


Ill tell you this. I am absolutely for the language purification, such as in Croatia. They have taken foreign originating words such as Avion (plane) and Telefon,  and are trying to replace them with slavic rooted words such as Zrakoplov and Brzozov. This will mean that when other slavic countries around croatia become completely assimilated, they will still be speaking their own language. By doing this they will not be isolating themselves from the world, because they still teach people english there. Obviously to become internationally successful you need to know english, but it is WITHIN the culture that I and many others oppose anglosization.

Quote
Nothing of course that I say will be good enough.  The retort will simply be that I'm an American and can't understand the situation.  You have simply made up your mind that the Church should not accept the inevitable political situation and find a way to minister to people in spite of it. 


Yup, looks like I've finally gotten that across to you Wink I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree from now on.
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« Reply #108 on: June 07, 2006, 04:26:52 PM »

No, everything that human nature is capable of producing is not worthy respect; if everything human nature is capable of producing would be worthy respect, then we would have to condone sins.
Exactly. A person earns respect through actions or intent.  Clearly if humans are capable of evil actions and sin then it follows that there will be some people that commit such actions and therefore do not deserve respect.  Obviously things are more complicated, everyone is somewhere inbetween, both sinning, and doing things worthy of praise.  Buts its not unreasonable to assume that on both ends there will be people for whom you can meaningfully say that you respect or not.  There has to be a distinction, otherwise we're back to the relativist view that there are no sins and therefore no virtues.  Now that you have clarified things a little, we are closer to agreeing, but I cannot understand why you would say everyone is worthy of respect if you dont mean EVERYONE? ÂÂ

However, I can't see how saying that everyone deserves respect would go against Christianity: if man is made in the image of God (now, I might have mixed things up here, but please bear with me), that alone would be a good enough reason to show respect, no matter how sinful the person's actions were. That does not mean that I don't consider their actions sinful.

In theory, this is very easy. I too would have great difficulty respecting a pedophile -ÂÂ  I understand that people want to do all kinds of things to sexual predators, but there is a line that I do not want to cross.
I think that you're using the word respect a little loosely.  To me it implies that someone has earnt it through positive actions, afterall you have to respect someone for what they stand for or do.  You're using it in the sense that we should have Christian goodwill to all souls, to the extent that we should pray for everyone.  I would agree with this, I want everyone to be redeemed.  This feeling should be unconditional, respect shouldnt.
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« Reply #109 on: June 07, 2006, 04:31:02 PM »

I probably am using the word a bit loosely; English isn't my first language.

It is late here, and I really only signed in again to edit my previous post, so I am going to be annoying and sign out again. Later, folks.
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« Reply #110 on: June 07, 2006, 04:44:55 PM »

I can feel the Christian love in this post, I really can.ÂÂ  Roll Eyes

I was eagerly anticipating the arrival of your 2 cents! Tongue
Since you're so opposed to opposing sin, and propose the answer is to sit on the fence and do nothing while things degenerate maybe you can explain the following.  Why did Jesus in the temple not just verbally chastise those using the holy place as a market to make material profit, but also physically overthrew the tables?  According to your logic he surely shouldnt have said or done anything.
You are mixing up two different concepts.  Speaking of his personal enemies Jesus said: 'forgive them they know not what they do'.  But for those that were corrupting society it was right and dutiful to chastise them instead of apathetically doing nothing.
You have things the wrong way round.  You consider it your right to 'forgive' those that sin against others, but not your duty to fight for whats right.  Infact you have no right to forgive those that have not transgressed against you personally, whereas you have a duty to defend whats right. ÂÂ
Doing nothing, declaring they are harmless and that we should love them merely hardens the arrogant prideful stance of these people.  For they see people with supposed conviction without the backbone to stand for something.
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« Reply #111 on: June 07, 2006, 04:55:31 PM »

Ill tell you this. I am absolutely for the language purification, such as in Croatia. They have taken foreign originating words such as Avion (plane) and Telefon,ÂÂ  and are trying to replace them with slavic rooted words such as Zrakoplov and Brzozov. This will mean that when other slavic countries around croatia become completely assimilated, they will still be speaking their own language. By doing this they will not be isolating themselves from the world, because they still teach people english there. Obviously to become internationally successful you need to know english, but it is WITHIN the culture that I and many others oppose anglosization.

It won't last, for better or worse artificial linguistic changes rarely do (one significant exception being the gender neutralization of language, but there is a strong cultural evolutionary force behind that which can work with, rather than against, the evolution of language (towards simplification in the indo-european language group)).

As a side note, just think how absurd it would be if English tried to remove all non-Anglo-Saxon/West Germanic influence. If we did we'd be reduced to eating 'Cow Wellington' or 'Pig Chops.' (Or is Chop of french influence? Maybe, we're not entirely certain, perhaps we should have to forbid it just to be on the safe side, but for the life of me I dont know what Anglo-Saxon word I'd use in its place...and is Wellington an Anglo-Saxon place name? Or can we attribute it to the Normands? I really dont know the answer to that one.)
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« Reply #112 on: June 07, 2006, 05:10:11 PM »

If we did we'd be reduced to eating 'Cow Wellington' or 'Pig Chops.'

Mmmmm...Cow Wellington...Pig Chops....
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« Reply #113 on: June 07, 2006, 05:49:32 PM »

It's almost impossible to remove foreign words, and not always worth the effort.  While at heart I am a romantic believer in "pure language" reality just doesn't work that way.  A basic book on the subject is "The Power of Babel" by I believe John McWorter (sp).  Languages evolve and borrow all the time.  It's viritually impossible to remove or prevent foreign words from coming in--Turkish was somewhat successful with removing Arabic words and the French Quebecans are doing ok with their efforts but they have draconian government policies mixed in with "flourish or die" seige mentalities.  Yet, these languages themselves have changed in the past century!  So, while I will always be an aficionado of Shakespearean English and Classical Greek (of course I just used a Spanish term!) I will go with the flow and use foreign words when it suits.  Those other states may be somewhat successful in their attempts but in the long run probably won't be totally successful, which means, if it's ok to have a few, why not more? And if something is assimilited, is it really still foreign?

Anastasios
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« Reply #114 on: June 07, 2006, 08:09:54 PM »

Quote
Yup, looks like I've finally gotten that across to you  I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree from now on.

Of course you are just as much an outsider (as someone living in Canada) to most situations in the Balkans as I am.  You are an insider to only one political idealogy (which is hardly ubiquitous) in Serbia.  Taking your nationalist idealogy to its conclusion means that nobody can understand any event that there were not "part of."  Yet this would destroy the entire field of history. 
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« Reply #115 on: June 07, 2006, 08:14:36 PM »

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Ill tell you this. I am absolutely for the language purification, such as in Croatia. They have taken foreign originating words such as Avion (plane) and Telefon,  and are trying to replace them with slavic rooted words such as Zrakoplov and Brzozov. This will mean that when other slavic countries around croatia become completely assimilated, they will still be speaking their own language. By doing this they will not be isolating themselves from the world, because they still teach people english there. Obviously to become internationally successful you need to know english, but it is WITHIN the culture that I and many others oppose anglosization.

That is artificial and forced.  Only time will tell if it will work.  You still did not respond to my actual question.  Do you support the linguistic and cultural revivals of Tatars and others in Central Asia and their efforts to eleminate Russian influence?  Or more to the point how about Ukrainian and Belorusian nationalists - or even better yet Montenegrin nationalists?   
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« Reply #116 on: June 07, 2006, 10:04:03 PM »

Why did Jesus in the temple not just verbally chastise those using the holy place as a market to make material profit, but also physically overthrew the tables?  According to your logic he surely shouldnt have said or done anything.

That's an excellent example we all could emulate when dealing with society's illnesses.  In my mind, overthrowing tables and throwing eggs at demonstrators are symbolically equivalent.  They are both effective at emphatically declaring opposition to a collective misdemeanor without harming anybody by intention.
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« Reply #117 on: June 07, 2006, 10:25:40 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9156.msg123436#msg123436 date=1149725394]
Of course you are just as much an outsider (as someone living in Canada) to most situations in the Balkans as I am.ÂÂ  [/quote]

Me = You ? I might be an outsider but how can I be just as much as an outsider as you when a) I am from there b) I am in constant contact with family and friends there c) I go there every second summer. Surely you were joking?

 
Quote
Do you support the linguistic and cultural revivals of Tatars and others in Central Asia and their efforts to eleminate Russian influence?  Or more to the point how about Ukrainian and Belorusian nationalists - or even better yet Montenegrin nationalists?


Why would I be against Tatar cultural revival? As long as it does not lead to an attempt to gain independance, I feel they fully deserve their right to reform. I doubt they will succeed because even the ethnicity "Tatar" is not clearly defined. Tatars in Eastern Europe, Caucasus, Siberia and Central Asia ahve genetic and ethnic differences. Its like doing a slavic cultural revival. Ukrainian Nationalists? Are you referring to Ukrainians attempting to break of the close connections with Russia? If you do, I have no problem. Ukrainians were not derived from Russians, but infact Russiand from Ukrainians. Russia needs to stop pretending to be the "Protector of Slavs", especially if they're not gonna follow up on it. Belorussian Nationalism? once again I dont even know what stances they take.

Montenegrin Nationalists I DO know about. Of course, that is such a minority of people it is nearly invisible. They dont even know what they want now. They got their independance, but theyve got no culture or language to re-instate because its all serbian. As the first Montenegrin rulers, Njegos said "I am a Serb. This is the Serbian land of Montenegro." They cant change history so...

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« Reply #118 on: June 07, 2006, 10:26:19 PM »

The local news must have gotten it wrong becase it was posted as "in Romania", not Moscow...unless both places had the same type of thing go on with the same response.
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« Reply #119 on: June 07, 2006, 10:29:34 PM »

both places had the same type of thing go on with the same response.
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« Reply #120 on: June 07, 2006, 11:33:29 PM »

Quote
Me = You ? I might be an outsider but how can I be just as much as an outsider as you when a) I am from there b) I am in constant contact with family and friends there c) I go there every second summer. Surely you were joking?

I'm not joking, and my comparison is not as far fetched as it initially seems.  You are an insider to only one group with one particular idealogy in the region.  You must agree that you are an outsider to the gypsy communities in the former Yugoslavia (unless of course you speak Romany and live among them).  Also you are an outsider to both Albanians living in Albania and the former Yugoslavia unless you speak Albanian and live as an Albanian among them.  That is what I am getting at, you are an insider - but only to one group in a region of many groups. 

Another angle is this:  I was born in America with English as my native language.  I am a member of the Republican party.  My views about topics like illegal immigration or my opinion of President Bush are thus affected by that.  My insider status actually hinders me from forming an objective point of view or seeing things from multiple perspectives. 

The other point to be made here is that people from the same region (even other Serbs!) have dramatically different perespectives on these topics.

Quote
Why would I be against Tatar cultural revival? As long as it does not lead to an attempt to gain independance, I feel they fully deserve their right to reform. I doubt they will succeed because even the ethnicity "Tatar" is not clearly defined. Tatars in Eastern Europe, Caucasus, Siberia and Central Asia ahve genetic and ethnic differences.

I was not being precise; I was speakly chiefly of the Volga Tatars.  I respect that you are consistent in not being hostile to the newfound Tatat nationalism.  I guess I see it as playing with matches and being surprised when a fire starts - i.e that once strong nationalist movements arise, separetist movements and violence are often to follow. 

Quote
Montenegrin Nationalists I DO know about. Of course, that is such a minority of people it is nearly invisible. They dont even know what they want now. They got their independance, but theyve got no culture or language to re-instate because its all serbian.

Many Russian nationalists will make these same claims about Ukraine - that Ukrainian is just a dialect of Russian, that they have no seperate identity of their own, etc.  The same has been said of Macedonians and others.  The creation of a national mythology for Montenegro is not that much different than any other nation's myths

In general, I do tend to agree that national and ethnic identities can be a positive thing.  But I will always strongly hold that the Orthodox Church ought to not sanctify the national myths of any nation.   

 
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« Reply #121 on: June 08, 2006, 01:29:47 AM »

Quote
I can feel the Christian love in this post, I really can.ÂÂ  Roll EyesÂÂ  Plank in eye?

Does the West really know what being a "Christian" is all about?ÂÂ  

Take it from a Catholic.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/persecution/pch0060.html
One of the most important things my friend said to me was this: He believed that the people of the West have not been put to the test of Faith as have the Christian people of the East, and that we in the West are unprepared for great suffering. He wondered if we understood that the spirit of evil which had acted openly in the East was also at work in the West, and that terrible evils always follow when men turn away from God.

I have thought long and hard upon this simple insight of his, and I have come to believe it is a profound warning to us all. As the Godless materialism of the secularized democracies now seeks to flood into the East, new dangers arise, grave dangers to the soul. It would be a tragedy if Western materialism were mistaken for authentic human freedom. Of course, a decent reasonable level of material well-being is a good thing. But the Western pursuit of pleasure, luxury, and endless entertainments (combined with indifference to God and more and more outright rebellion against God) can create new forms of evil in human societies. Man falls into forgetfulness so easily. East and West, we can be deluded into thinking that the human person is no more than a clever, talking beast. We can lose the whole truth about man. And the end result of this is to degrade man to the level of an object, a thing which can be disposed of by the arbitrary will of political systems. By the same token, if man becomes a consumer without conscience, he degrades himself as well as others to the level of objects.

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« Reply #122 on: June 08, 2006, 04:05:03 AM »

It seems like you were right, which means that my English still needs improving. Ow.   Lips Sealed

We (as in "society") need a serious debate about these issues*. Such a debate can not be held if the side that is supposed to represent moral values keeps on throwing things at those being criticized; why not work for a change of attitude using other means? Is it problematic because you fear it would be a step towards condoning these sins? Let me remind you that it certainly doesn't have to imply that we change our minds about the sinfulness of homosexuality. I am talking about presenting a serious alternative.
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« Reply #123 on: June 08, 2006, 04:56:26 AM »

It seems like you were right, which means that my English still needs improving. Ow.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Lips Sealed

We (as in "society") need a serious debate about these issues*. Such a debate can not be held if the side that is supposed to represent moral values keeps on throwing things at those being criticized; why not work for a change of attitude using other means? Is it problematic because you fear it would be a step towards condoning these sins? Let me remind you that it certainly doesn't have to imply that we change our minds about the sinfulness of homosexuality. I am talking about presenting a serious alternative.

Well I have nothing against debating with them, but if this implies compromise then I find that unacceptable.  I mean compromise as regards to promoting their values, if you can call them values, teaching that it is normal in schools etc.  When you talk about a serious alternative I dont think we need to reinvent the wheel, the alternative is the same now as it always was: the path of repentance and prayer.  You might think that to be wishful thinking, but what other alternative is there to sin?
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« Reply #124 on: June 08, 2006, 10:41:15 AM »

Does the West really know what being a "Christian" is all about?ÂÂ  

Take it from a Catholic.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/persecution/pch0060.html
One of the most important things my friend said to me was this: He believed that the people of the West have not been put to the test of Faith as have the Christian people of the East, and that we in the West are unprepared for great suffering. He wondered if we understood that the spirit of evil which had acted openly in the East was also at work in the West, and that terrible evils always follow when men turn away from God.

I have thought long and hard upon this simple insight of his, and I have come to believe it is a profound warning to us all. As the Godless materialism of the secularized democracies now seeks to flood into the East, new dangers arise, grave dangers to the soul. It would be a tragedy if Western materialism were mistaken for authentic human freedom. Of course, a decent reasonable level of material well-being is a good thing. But the Western pursuit of pleasure, luxury, and endless entertainments (combined with indifference to God and more and more outright rebellion against God) can create new forms of evil in human societies. Man falls into forgetfulness so easily. East and West, we can be deluded into thinking that the human person is no more than a clever, talking beast. We can lose the whole truth about man. And the end result of this is to degrade man to the level of an object, a thing which can be disposed of by the arbitrary will of political systems. By the same token, if man becomes a consumer without conscience, he degrades himself as well as others to the level of objects.


So Christianity is about being miserable? Hmmm...and I always thought that something about Christ, Mercy, and Love were the fundamental elements. I guess if we 'love' our neighbour we'll do our best to make them suffer.
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« Reply #125 on: June 08, 2006, 12:05:02 PM »

I always thought that something about Christ, Mercy, and Love were the fundamental elements.

Faith without works is dead.

Quote
I guess if we 'love' our neighbour we'll do our best to make them suffer.

That's not the point.  The Russians know what suffering is, and they fear that their children would undergo the same trials should they react passively to secularization.  On the other hand, Americans live in pleasure, so they don't feel any urgency to oppose evil--at least not yet.
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« Reply #126 on: June 08, 2006, 03:05:45 PM »

Well I have nothing against debating with them, but if this implies compromise then I find that unacceptable.  I mean compromise as regards to promoting their values, if you can call them values, teaching that it is normal in schools etc.  When you talk about a serious alternative I dont think we need to reinvent the wheel, the alternative is the same now as it always was: the path of repentance and prayer.  You might think that to be wishful thinking, but what other alternative is there to sin?

No, I don't consider that wishful thinking at all. I agree.  Smiley
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« Reply #127 on: August 06, 2006, 06:14:29 AM »

Just want to say: hi!
From probably the first gay orthodox who's contributing here.

By the way, you all seem to feel superior over 'me'.
But didn't Christ teach you (and me) to be the littlest.
Christ didn't rule with violence and prejudice.
He loved. And still loves me (and you?). Despite all my sins. And believe me: I perform greater sins than my being gay.
Homosexuality doesn't undermine society. Prejudice, hate, not loving your neighbour etc. does.
But it's nice to know that my brothers/sisters rather would love to bash me than love and accept me.
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« Reply #128 on: August 06, 2006, 09:02:41 AM »

Just want to say: hi!
Hi! and welcome.

From probably the first gay orthodox who's contributing here.
Well, actually you are not. There are three other friends of ours on the forum who have identified as same-sex attracted.


By the way, you all seem to feel superior over 'me'.
But didn't Christ teach you (and me) to be the littlest.
Christ didn't rule with violence and prejudice.
He loved. And still loves me (and you?). Despite all my sins. And believe me: I perform greater sins than my being gay.
Homosexuality doesn't undermine society. Prejudice, hate, not loving your neighbour etc. does.
But it's nice to know that my brothers/sisters rather would love to bash me than love and accept me.
Now who is making sweeping generalisations? Wink
If you had actually bothered to read through the posts in this thread from the beginning (and you obviously haven't), you will find a very broad spectrum of opinions on this issue, many of which agree with the sentiments you have posted in the rest of your initial post.
I can understand that this is a sensitive issue for you, and so I can see why you might come in with all guns blazing and shoot from the hip with your first post, but you have to see that such behaviour is not being fair to the many posters who would not disagree with your opinion. This is not the way to reach a point of mutual understanding.
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« Reply #129 on: August 06, 2006, 09:56:26 AM »

hi again

you're right ...
 I was just very very mad.
Browsing the internet for something positive about being gay and orthodox.
All I found was condemnation, prejudice etc. etc.
read some posts here and all I found was negative.
Some even understood the orthodox protestors and molestors in Moscow.
And that's why i couldn't hold myself again.
I am from the Netherlands and there is more nuance in thinking about it.

But it was for a good cause i wrote this, otherwise I wouldn't know there were more gay here ...

So thanks for correcting me on this
And for those i grieved: forgive me!

PS.: Would really love to stay in contact with you ozgeorge and the other 3 :-)
Mail me please.

by the way: talking about 'all', I don't mean everyone. Just the ones who do condemn me.
Just as in prayer when I talk about sins in general. I am not personally doing all these things, but live in a general sinful world.
So not everyone is meant when i say 'all'.
Hope you understand what i want to say here.
But again: sorry for hurting anyone's feelings.
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« Reply #130 on: August 06, 2006, 10:21:31 AM »

Welcome Rebel Prince!
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  No, you are not the first or only gay Orthodox poster on this forum. I, too, am gay and Orthodox. However, I hope I may offer the following suggestions:
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  1. Don't let being "gay" define who you are as a human being. There's more to life than that. I am attracted to the same sex. I admit that. But that doesn't define who I am. Its a passion I suffer from. Put it in perspective.
 ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  2. If we don't chose to be gay (and I don't think we do), how can we possibly have any "pride" in being gay? One has reasonable pride for things one has attained and accomplished in life. If we simply awaken to the fact that we suffer from same sex attraction during puberty, how can we be proud of that? To me it makes no more sense than being "proud" of being left-handed, blue-eyed, diabetic etc. This doesn't mean we have to hate ourselves for being gay. I think such an attitude is very unhealthy. But I think it is best to have a dispassionate and sober attitude toward being gay.
     3. I also think we gay people must admit that on SOME level we have an affliction. Something went wrong somewhere. I have no idea what causes homosexuality, but if everyone were like us, the human race would die out. You don't have to torment yourself with guilt over that. I don't. But at some level something's gone wrong. I think we gay people honestly need to admit that. Something about us is profoundly abnormal.
     4. This may seem a nuanced point, but the Orthodox Church does NOT condemn gay people. Now, there might be some homophobic Orthodox that do. You need to distinguish between Protestant fundamentalists here and Orthodox Christianity. The Orthodox Church does not teach (nor has it ever taught) that God hates those who suffer from same sex attraction. Please get that clear! God loves us just as much as He loves everyone else. God does not hate those who suffer from the sinful passions. And all human beings have some sinful passions that they struggle with. The nuanced point here is that the Orthodox Church will not give its blessing upon those that engage in same sex PRACTICE. In other words, the Orthodox Church does NOT condemn us for our sexual orientation. We can't control that. That comes from deep within us. We are attracted to whom we are attracted. Period. But we CAN indeed choose whom we will have sexual union with. That does lie within our power. And that's all the Orthodox Church asks us to do as gay people: be continent. Be chaste.
     5. And remember, if from time to time, we fall into patterns of gay sex, it is simply the best thing to pick ourselves up, avail ourselves of the Sacrament of Repentance, and begin walking the path of chastity again anew. It's really the only way.
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« Reply #131 on: August 06, 2006, 10:35:01 AM »

Hi Tikhon

You have some good points ...
Except I am not suffering!

There is no difference between being gay and acting gay.
That's a very unnatural border (sorry for my english). And very unloving.

And do u mean that God loves me more when I have sex with another anonymous man once ... and then feel sorry for it and ask his forgivenes? And forgiveness for what? For what should I feel sorry?
I didn't ask for being gay. But now I accepted that fact I am proud to be! So yes: pride!
I have to be proud. To show that I have the right for my own place in this world.

I dont scream it from any rooftop that I am gay. But I am not ashamed also.
And I am not sleeping around with many men - I guess many people believe gays do.
I have a man. In the Netherlands we can mary. And I did. I love my man.
And nno-one wil send me away when I want to visit him when he might be in hospital.
I can inherit, when he might die (May god forbid) and not his family, but the man he chose to live with.

And still God loves me. I know He does. Believe me.

Where does this idea come from He doesn't.
The Bible? read again!
Churchfathers? They are talking about mollestors, not about me, loving my man.
...
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« Reply #132 on: August 06, 2006, 11:51:13 AM »

Rebelprince,
I suggest you pick up the recent issue (I think an issue or two ago) of AGAIN magazine where this topic is discussed.  Matter of fact, Fr. Thomas Hopko has written a book on the subject recently.
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« Reply #133 on: August 06, 2006, 12:19:50 PM »

somewhere i read this:

Up against traditional interpretations of the first Christians’ Bible, the Council of Jerusalem listened to the testimony of Peter, Paul and others who had witnessed God’s Spirit moving in those unclean “by nature,” just as He was moving in them.  Rogers calls this “a relevant biblical analogy” for today’s homosexual issues in the church.  He’s absolutely right.
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« Reply #134 on: August 06, 2006, 02:09:30 PM »

It doesn't seem to me that there is debate that the Spirit will move in whomever It chooses; God is beyond-free to use whomever as His instruments.  I think Tikhon provided the best advice and care for your concerns, and did it from a position of empathy and sympathy (i.e. he's gone through many of the same experiences).

You may not get sympathy, though, if you're response to Tikhon and others is to start questioning the validity of the Bible or the interpretation of the Bible by people who are sympathetic to your plight.
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