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Author Topic: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers  (Read 40505 times) Average Rating: 0
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Theognosis
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« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2006, 08:49:10 PM »

Honestly some western cities look like down town Sodom, and you guys seem to want to tell other peoples that they should adopt your liberal free-for-all experiment which is leaving your entire society spiritually confused and lost.

And they have the nerve to say that Russia is wrong!
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« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2006, 10:32:35 PM »

I'm just curious.ÂÂ  What do believe to be logical consequences of "permitting them" to "flaunt" their homosexuality?

I'm also curious as to how the flaunting might subvert "the entire society"?


I agree with Patriot 100%.  Do you know what dehumanization is? As we live in a higher populated planet, we see and hear about murder more often. Becuase we hear about murder everyday now, we are becoming desensitized to it. Do you think society would react the same way as today if 100 years ago a father killed his whole family, chopped them up and hid them in his garage? Of course they would be in more greater shock and disgust than today. We hear about these events regularly and I'm sad to say we're even getting used to it. It is becoming..I wont say more "accepted" into society, but looked upon more lightlier than before.

The same thing is happening with homosexuality. By being exposed to all these situations, we are accepting them as a normal part of society. If you watch a regular TV show, almost every single popular show now has atleast one homosexual character. They are slowly but surely incorporating themselves into society.

What is even sadder than the whole homosexual incorporation into society thing is that if I state what I just said ^ to the public, I would be  automatically labelled as a Homophobe.
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« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2006, 06:28:18 AM »

I'm just curious.ÂÂ  What do believe to be logical consequences of "permitting them" to "flaunt" their homosexuality?

I'm also curious as to how the flaunting might subvert "the entire society"?

Im in the middle of exam week so I cant give you the most indepth analysis, but basically if you give people an inch they will take a mile.  There have to be standards which you dont compromise on.  The general pattern over the last century has shown things are sliding backwards.  Not only do some people here not want to make a stand, but they almost seem to be encouraging this trend.  The west is at the point now where adultery, pornography, homosexuality are not just allowed, they are seen as normal occurences.  Infact things have gone even further, they are not just seen as normal, but people take pride in them.  It is glorified in the media, it is becoming enshrined in law.  Things are slipping up badly.  You know you've got problems when even Orthodox believers are saying that gay pride parades should be allowed in Moscow and that they dont have a problem with people taking pride in, and celebrating their sin, flaunting it under their nose. 
Also, I think the link between commies and skinheads is an unfair one (to commies).ÂÂ  Communist ideology (however flawed) is not centrally based upon hatred.
Well the 2 are complete opposites, I just mentioned it to get my point accross that you can get a wide cross-section of society at one-issue demonstrations.  Im just disputing the idea that we are so morally superior or pure that we cannot attend a demo where such people will be present.  Are we also so weak that we cannot attend them without being subverted by their hate as a previous poster suggested.  Also another crucial point is that if Orthodox dont show their feelings, then the entire demonstration would be left to others, leaving us with no voice.
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« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2006, 01:18:53 PM »

Sadly, in secular societies today all kinds of overt sexual and sexualised behaviour is accepted without comment. The law could be less tolerant of overt behaviour but I would not simply single out 'homosexuals'. We even have a political party now in the Netherlands trying to start up and hoping to be represented in their Parliament. They want the age of consent brought down to 12 years, and eventually done away with. Their spokesperson argued in an interview I saw that children can both consent and say no according to their own wishes. When challenged, rightly in my view, by the interviewer the spokesperson refused to back down on this absurdity.

Advocates for 'homosexuality' appear to be over-represented in the media, performing arts and at times in academia. They appear to have an agenda and seem to be very successful.

Children are vunerable and impressionable. But how the Russian Federation tackles these issues without failing into some major traps is something beyond my ken. Possibly others are more inspired than me?
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« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2006, 09:56:36 AM »

Before we Orthodox get too holier than thou about how "pure" Holy Russia is and how homosexuality is an outside influence on Russia by the corrupt West, have any of you studied Russian history and culture? Do you not know that Peter Tchaikovsky was gay (and flaming at that)? And he composed beautiful setting of the liturgy for the Orthodox Church, esp. his "Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos." Anyone ever hear of Prince Yusepov (one of the assassignators of Rasputin)? He was as queer as the 3 dollar bill! Has no one here heard ever heard of the notorious male rape (sodomy) that goes on in the Russian Army? It's a terrible problem and apparently a right of initiation in many places. And as for Holy Byzantium, has anyone ever read Saint John Chrysostom's sermon on weddings? He counsels the residents of Constantinople not to invite the homosexual prostitutes to the marriage feasts for the entertainment of the guests. If Saint John had to mention that publically, you KNOW it was going on and wide spread.  Just some thoughts.
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« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2006, 10:19:06 AM »

The children are the victims.ÂÂ  They will grow up thinking that homosexuality is normal.

Not sure how true this is.

I grew up in a very liberal city with the second highest homosexual population in North America.  Gay pride parades were a staple, and preaching acceptance of the Gay lifestyle was common place.  However, I don't think that impacted me as a child.

To be clear, I disagree with the homosexuality (in as much as those who actively live the homosexual lifestyle), however, I do not *hate* homosexuals.  I also would never advocate violence against any homosexual or group of homosexuals.  On the flip side, I do agree with those about the gay pride parades, I do believe they are excessive.

I think my general attitude is that I need to get my self (and house) in order before I can start taking on the sins of others.  God knows, I have enough of my own to keep my plate full, that I need not worry about overly expressive homosexuals.
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« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2006, 10:26:29 AM »

I agree with Patriot 100%.ÂÂ  Do you know what dehumanization is? As we live in a higher populated planet, we see and hear about murder more often. Becuase we hear about murder everyday now, we are becoming desensitized to it. Do you think society would react the same way as today if 100 years ago a father killed his whole family, chopped them up and hid them in his garage? Of course they would be in more greater shock and disgust than today. We hear about these events regularly and I'm sad to say we're even getting used to it. It is becoming..I wont say more "accepted" into society, but looked upon more lightlier than before.

The same thing is happening with homosexuality. By being exposed to all these situations, we are accepting them as a normal part of society. If you watch a regular TV show, almost every single popular show now has atleast one homosexual character. They are slowly but surely incorporating themselves into society.

What is even sadder than the whole homosexual incorporation into society thing is that if I state what I just said ^ to the public, I would beÂÂ  automatically labelled as a Homophobe.
Let me ask you Sloga, do you take as strong a stance on pre-marital sex?

It's a genuine question which I like to ask of young men (about your age).  I often find (and this may not be the case with you) but many young males are very quick to condemn the homosexual acts of others, while condoning things like premarital sex?

I think you'll agree that among guys your age, often the only thing they talk about is "who they're going to sleep with next".  Essentially, making the act of sex, sport.  Are you as outraged by that type of talk or behavior?  How about on a Friday or Saturday night in Toronto, when the clubs are packed with 19-25 year old males whose sole ambition is to get a one night stand?  Do you find that dehumanizing?

You and I are both Serbs and I'm sure if you've got young Serbian friend (the way I did growing up), you are aware of what "normal" young Serbian guys are like.  Is that behavior any less sinful than a homosexual?  I knew a Serbian friend who kept a "score card" in his glove box; was he any better?

Somehow, I don't think we focus are "outrage" in the same ways where sin is concerned.
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« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2006, 01:29:49 PM »

Homosexuality is not new, in Russia or anywhere else. What is new is the push for it to be put on a moral, social, economic and legal footing with heterosexuality, e.g. Homosexual marriage or civil partnerships, etc.

Indeed somewhere here I have an excellent book on Confession by a Russian bishop which tackles this issue, and very sensibly in the case of youngsters.
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« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2006, 03:34:47 PM »

Let me ask you Sloga, do you take as strong a stance on pre-marital sex?

It's a genuine question which I like to ask of young men (about your age).ÂÂ  I often find (and this may not be the case with you) but many young males are very quick to condemn the homosexual acts of others, while condoning things like premarital sex?


Your 100% right. And yes, although I do condemn homosexual acts, I look at premarital sex differently. Both are sins however, I'm not going to say they arent. Being a homosexual by itself, is not a sin. Partaking in sodomy is a sin, let alone plus your doing it pre-maritally. However, pre-marital sex by its self is not a sin, only the timing of the sex. Both are definitly sins, but I would rather do the latter. What if you had pre-marital sex, not as a one night stand, but with a women you loved very much and have been living together for a long time, but for financial or other reasons have not been able to get married?

In the end I guess it comes down to whether you believe all sins are equally bad, or that some sins are worse than others.

Can I just point something out that I find interesting....between those two sins, which one does the government condemn more? Homosexuals are encouraged to partake in Gay activities and have safe sex (pre-marital). Pre-marital sex is overall condemned. In my school when we had sex-ed, they taught us that Abstinence is the best moral and intelligent option. If you MUST have sex, use a method of protection. But overall they would condemn it, wheras homosexuality is infact encouraged.
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« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2006, 09:27:27 PM »

Before we Orthodox get too holier than thou about how "pure" Holy Russia is and how homosexuality is an outside influence on Russia by the corrupt West, have any of you studied Russian history and culture? Do you not know that Peter Tchaikovsky was gay (and flaming at that)? And he composed beautiful setting of the liturgy for the Orthodox Church, esp. his "Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos."  Anyone ever hear of Prince Yusepov (one of the assassignators of Rasputin)? He was as queer as the 3 dollar bill!

Nobody here is arguing that there are no gays in Russia.  Homosexuality dates back to ancient times and no country is spared.
 
Quote
Has no one here heard ever heard of the notorious male rape (sodomy) that goes on in the Russian Army? It's a terrible problem and apparently a right of initiation in many places.

As Orthodox, are we then going to tolerate the rape or condemn it publicly?
 
Quote
And as for Holy Byzantium, has anyone ever read Saint John Chrysostom's sermon on weddings? He counsels the residents of Constantinople not to invite the homosexual prostitutes to the marriage feasts for the entertainment of the guests.

Publicly condemning homosexuality is exactly what the mayor and the residents of Russia are doing.

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If Saint John had to mention that publically, you KNOW it was going on and wide spread.

Non sequitur.
 
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« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2006, 09:29:51 PM »

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Violence Mars Romanian Gay March


Politics: 4 June 2006, Sunday.

Police in Romania's capital Bucharest has made dozens of arrests during a gay rights march on Sunday.

The homosexuals were attacked by violent protesters, and police had to use teargas to hold the latter at bay, media report.

People were throwing eggs, stones and plastic bottles at the gay campaigners, according to reports.

According to the AP, gay people from the UK, Spain and Serbia had turned up to support the Bucharest GayFest participants, who marched against discrimination and for legalizing gay marriages.

Homosexuality was fully decriminalised in Romania only five years ago, the BBC recalled.
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« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2006, 09:41:04 PM »

Not sure how true this is.

I grew up in a very liberal city with the second highest homosexual population in North America.  Gay pride parades were a staple, and preaching acceptance of the Gay lifestyle was common place.  However, I don't think that impacted me as a child.

But not everybody is like you.

Quote
I think my general attitude is that I need to get my self (and house) in order before I can start taking on the sins of others.  God knows, I have enough of my own to keep my plate full, that I need not worry about overly expressive homosexuals.

You're talking about your personal responsibilities.  Truly, God does not want us to be critical on the personal level.  However, this does not apply to our social responsibilities (Eph 6:12). ÂÂ
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« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2006, 09:49:33 PM »

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It's a genuine question which I like to ask of young men (about your age).  I often find (and this may not be the case with you) but many young males are very quick to condemn the homosexual acts of others, while condoning things like premarital sex?

This is sad because pre-marital sex has become the norm.  Would you like homosexuality to be part of our everyday lives as well?
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« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2006, 09:57:17 PM »

Wow, same thing just happened in Romania? You would think that if the gays cared not to be pelted with eggs and rocks that they would find a better way to advance their message. Obviously, looking fruity marching down the street and throwing it in everyone's face has not worked so far. Do these people really want to go through all this trouble just to advance some left wing socio - political agenda? That garbage may fly in America, but looks like the traditional Orthodox countries aren't hearing it.
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« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2006, 04:12:44 AM »

"but looks like the traditional Orthodox countries aren't hearing it."

I still think this behaviour is outrageous. I don't understand why referring to the behaviour of the "traditional Orthodox countries" is so popular, as if it were model just because it is that of so called Orthodox Christians. These countries also have a long history of antisemitism, should we condone that as well? Throwing eggs and rocks at other people is not the kind of behaviour I would expect from those who call themselves Christians. Whatever happened to peaceful, serious dialogue?


I used to admire the Orthodox Church for its way of condemning homosexuality, but not disrespecting the homosexual individuals; I am not so sure anymore.
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« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2006, 06:25:41 AM »

I think the rock throwing and violence are simply manifestations of the frustrations people in Eastern Europe have. They have been thru so much change so rapidly in the past 10 years it makes their heads spin. They ARE much more used to a group consensus about things than individualistic, free-spirited Americans are anyway. And let's face it, this "in-your-face" American style protest parade fits into our American culture of rebellion a whole lot easier than it does in Eastern Europe. I am not excusing the violence. The violence is deplorable. But then, if you have ever seen a gay rights parade, many of them are deplorable too. We had our first gay rights parade here in my city (Greenville, SC) after the fundagelicals on the County Council passed an "ordinance" condemning gay people and saying they were not welcome to live here. It was quite mild and designed not to be grossly offensive. It consisted mainly of well behaved people marching and singing, much like the civil rights marches. There was opposition, but there was also a police barricade to keep the two groups separate. And there was no violence at all. I have no easy answer for the problems of Eastern Europe, and I'm not sure there is one.
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« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2006, 07:08:12 AM »

Your 100% right. And yes, although I do condemn homosexual acts, I look at premarital sex differently. Both are sins however, I'm not going to say they arent. Being a homosexual by itself, is not a sin. Partaking in sodomy is a sin, let alone plus your doing it pre-maritally. However, pre-marital sex by its self is not a sin, only the timing of the sex. Both are definitly sins, but I would rather do the latter. What if you had pre-marital sex, not as a one night stand, but with a women you loved very much and have been living together for a long time, but for financial or other reasons have not been able to get married?

Well, if you want an Orthodox Canonical response to this, St. Basil teaches in his Canons that Fornication is no start to marriage and that, in just such a case as you mention, the couple should be, if by any means necessary short of the death of one of the individuals, separated and forbidden to marry.

Quote
In the end I guess it comes down to whether you believe all sins are equally bad, or that some sins are worse than others.

Perhaps the way we should look at his is that they are not all equal, the one I commit is graver than the one my neighbour commits. I know that sounds like a bunch of pietistic dribble, but I'm sure my posts to this board should vindicate me of the accusation of pietism. Ultimately, such a system of thought is consonant with a merciful and Christian 'moral or ethical theology' (as abhorrent as the very concept of a 'moral theology' is).

Quote
Can I just point something out that I find interesting....between those two sins, which one does the government condemn more? Homosexuals are encouraged to partake in Gay activities and have safe sex (pre-marital). Pre-marital sex is overall condemned. In my school when we had sex-ed, they taught us that Abstinence is the best moral and intelligent option. If you MUST have sex, use a method of protection. But overall they would condemn it, wheras homosexuality is infact encouraged.

Premarital sex has been a right in this country for decades, the laws against sodomy were only overturned a matter of years ago (and are still on the books in many states), not only is fornication more socially accepted than sodomy, law also favours the former.

But not everybody is like you.

Do you have evidence that allowing freedom of assembly corrupts the minds of the youth? What are the statistics you have to present in your devence? Where is the direct, objective, and quantifyable evidence? Or are these simply baseless accusations, that are at least as old as the time of Socrates, being levied against your political enemies?

I believe on this issue, which to me has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with Freedom of Speech and Assembly. I fear on this issue the immortal words of Voltaire (or actually Denis Diderot I believe, but it was Voltaire who made them famous) are most relevant:

'I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.'
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« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2006, 07:28:41 AM »

I used to admire the Orthodox Church for its way of condemning homosexuality, but not disrespecting the homosexual individuals; I am not so sure anymore.

Don't judge Orthodoxy by what people say here. This may be an Orthodox Forum, and in my opinion, a very good one, but a forum is where (in theory at least) people of different views come together to exchange ideas. No one speaks for Orthodoxy here (as much as they may like to think they do! Wink)
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« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2006, 07:40:41 AM »

Perhaps the way we should look at his is that they are not all equal, the one I commit is graver than the one my neighbour commits.

I have always admired your knowledge GiC, but in my opinion, this is by far the wisest thing you have ever said.
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« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2006, 08:29:46 AM »


But not everybody is like you.
 
You're talking about your personal responsibilities.  Truly, God does not want us to be critical on the personal level.  However, this does not apply to our social responsibilities (Eph 6:12).
This is funny because I hear everyone imposing the "personal responsibility" argument when it seems convenient.  However, in the example you gave, it doesn't seem to be convenient, thus inapplicable.
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« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2006, 08:34:55 AM »

I have always admired your knowledge GiC, but in my opinion, this is by far the wisest thing you have ever said.

GIC,

    Have to echo the post of George. 

    I was actually surprised by the post, but to me, by far, one of your best.
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« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2006, 09:21:51 AM »

Tikhon: There might be more to this than meets the eye, but then many of our actions are the results of things working on a deeper psychological level, or just plain frustration. I can't imagine what life in Eastern Europe is like, and I live closer to it than most of you people. When I visited my father's relatives, I found the blatant antisemitism frightening, but I am hoping that things will change for the better. Many people have looked to the ideals, fashion and culture of the West (which is not completely rotten, but has serious flaws), and some have embraced everything, since it represents a kind of freedom. Now, it has been a while since the great collapse, but it is obvious that many things will take time. I am not quite sure that this rambling of mine has a point, I think I am trying to let you know that I can see the complexity of the situation.

Ozgeorge: Thanks for pointing that out, it is easy to forget. Smiley
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« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2006, 09:54:20 AM »

I too was taken by ozgeorge's contribution.

However what I see in Europe is a cleeping agenda,

Pride marches
successful lobbying for revised and new legislation
The demanding of and succeeding in getting teaching of homosexuality, the moral equivalence of homosexuality, the provision of teaching materials for the very young, etc., etc.

All this is meant, targetted and calculated to have an effect among the general population, and children.

Perhaps, the thinking element as opposed to the simply reactionary elements in Eastern Europe have picked up on these changes elsewhere and see such marches the thin edge of a wedge, which they either start to contest now or wait and find their own societies going the same way.

(But as to any notion of a present day Holy Russia - this is phantasy, and indeed some have previously suggested that Holy and Imperial Russia fell as punishment for the sinfulness of her peoples. What may also be resented is American neo-imperialism attempting to dictate how other societies will act, what laws and institutions they have and how they frame their democracies).
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« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2006, 11:15:48 AM »

Quote
Do you have evidence that allowing freedom of assembly corrupts the minds of the youth? What are the statistics you have to present in your devence? Where is the direct, objective, and quantifyable evidence? Or are these simply baseless accusations, that are at least as old as the time of Socrates, being levied against your political enemies?

Demonstrations are held to influence the minds of people, and when the media is involved, the message gets across to a variety of audiences.ÂÂ  In publicity, you don't need statistics to say that the youth will be the one most affected because they are the ones who are easily misled by propaganda.

Quote
I believe on this issue, which to me has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with Freedom of Speech and Assembly.

How about freedom to express your opposition to sin, especially when you're the mayor?

Quote
I fear on this issue the immortal words of Voltaire (or actually Denis Diderot I believe, but it was Voltaire who made them famous) are most relevant:

'I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.'

I think it was the devil himself who said that.  ÃƒÆ’‚ He wants people to tell lies and have other people defend it.

Anyway, if a person wants to say something blasphemous, would you defend to death his right to say it?


« Last Edit: June 05, 2006, 11:27:00 AM by Theognosis » Logged
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« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2006, 12:14:15 PM »

GIC,

  ÃƒÆ’‚  Have to echo the post of George.  

  ÃƒÆ’‚  I was actually surprised by the post, but to me, by far, one of your best.

Ditto.
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« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2006, 02:49:42 PM »

Before we Orthodox get too holier than thou about how "pure" Holy Russia is and how homosexuality is an outside influence on Russia by the corrupt West, have any of you studied Russian history and culture?
Noone has said that there arent any homosexuals in Russia.  Clealy there are, or there wouldnt be a parade in the first place.


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« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2006, 02:58:38 PM »

"but looks like the traditional Orthodox countries aren't hearing it."

I still think this behaviour is outrageous. I don't understand why referring to the behaviour of the "traditional Orthodox countries" is so popular, as if it were model just because it is that of so called Orthodox Christians. These countries also have a long history of antisemitism, should we condone that as well? Throwing eggs and rocks at other people is not the kind of behaviour I would expect from those who call themselves Christians.
You're confusing things, who said it was Christians throwing eggs and rocks?ÂÂ  And whats with the anti-semitism, what does that have to do with this discussion?

Whatever happened to peaceful, serious dialogue?
Is this some kind of a joke, what are Christians supposed to debate with homosexuals for on th issue of a gay pride parade?ÂÂ  Either they get one or they dont, I dont see a compromise.ÂÂ  Niether would I want one.

I used to admire the Orthodox Church for its way of condemning homosexuality, but not disrespecting the homosexual individuals; I am not so sure anymore.
You're just making blanket statements, who disrespected homosexual individuals.ÂÂ  If thats what protesting their right to flaunt themselves means, then I'll also continue to disrespect peadophiles and other forms of degeneracy.ÂÂ  Whats with this hippie relativism, as if everyone deserves respect no matter their ideology or actions.
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« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2006, 03:12:16 PM »


Do you have evidence that allowing freedom of assembly corrupts the minds of the youth?
No one said freedom of assembley corrupts the minds of youth.ÂÂ  Rather glorification and normalisation of degeneracy corrupts the minds of youth.ÂÂ  Just look at what the media stands for, and how it has affected the way people live their lives, in most instances, for the worse.ÂÂ  I think you'll agree I dont need to wheel out statistics to prove this.

I believe on this issue, which to me has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality and everything to do with Freedom of Speech and Assembly. I fear on this issue the immortal words of Voltaire (or actually Denis Diderot I believe, but it was Voltaire who made them famous) are most relevant:

'I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.'
Freedom of speech is not an issue here, homosexuals have a right to say what they like in Russia.ÂÂ  Likewise freedom of assembley is not really an issue either, they have the right to assemble in their gay clubs.ÂÂ  Fact is they were banned from holding a parade, and decided to break the law anyway.ÂÂ  Do you defend their right to break the law?
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« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2006, 05:44:43 PM »

Demonstrations are held to influence the minds of people, and when the media is involved, the message gets across to a variety of audiences.ÂÂ  In publicity, you don't need statistics to say that the youth will be the one most affected because they are the ones who are easily misled by propaganda.

Personally, I dont think Political Demonstrations accomplish anything, other than making the participants feel like they've done something, but that's irrelevant, they should still be free to express themselves.

Quote
How about freedom to express your opposition to sin, especially when you're the mayor?

I most certainly support his right to express his opinion on any matter, but when he crosses the line from expressing his opinion to preventing the expression of the opinions of others, he's gone too far.

Quote
I think it was the devil himself who said that.  ÃƒÆ’‚ He wants people to tell lies and have other people defend it.

It works both ways, with both lies and truth. It is for each individual to determine which is which (yes, there is a measure of, gasp, responsibility that goes along with a free society).

Quote
Anyway, if a person wants to say something blasphemous, would you defend to death his right to say it?

Without hesitation.
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« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2006, 05:56:12 PM »

No one said freedom of assembley corrupts the minds of youth.ÂÂ  Rather glorification and normalisation of degeneracy corrupts the minds of youth.ÂÂ  Just look at what the media stands for, and how it has affected the way people live their lives, in most instances, for the worse.ÂÂ  I think you'll agree I dont need to wheel out statistics to prove this.

Oh, I do believe you need to wheel out statistics to prove you point, for as I said in my post above, I honestly dont believe that political demonstrations accomplish anything. Exposure and controversy perhaps, but I dont think it really affects people's thinking on the matter. As far as media goes, I believe media reflects culture, not vice versa. The goal of the media is to make money, not engineer society, and this is best accomplished by giving the people the product they want, not by creating controversy and trying to coerce people to change their views.

Quote
Freedom of speech is not an issue here, homosexuals have a right to say what they like in Russia.ÂÂ  Likewise freedom of assembley is not really an issue either, they have the right to assemble in their gay clubs.ÂÂ  Fact is they were banned from holding a parade, and decided to break the law anyway.ÂÂ  Do you defend their right to break the law?

Freedom of speech is the only issue here, I haven't been following this event, but, if as you say, the parade was prohibited by the state then our criticism should not be focused on the peaceful demonstrators (no matter how abhorrent their posistion may be to us) but on the oppressive state that attempted to prevent them from exercizing their freedom of expression. If Russia wants to pretend to be a western democracy (which they are, at the very least, pretending to be), and recieve all the political, diplomatic, and economic benifits associated with such a status, they have to be held accountable to the standards of western democracies, rather than being allowed to engage in Orwellian doublespeak...if they do not wish to be a western style democracy then that is their choice, but they will have to sacrifice the associated political, diplomatic, and economic benifits.
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« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2006, 05:59:08 PM »

they should still be free to express themselves.

GiC, I must again ask why you are so concerned with letting people do these things when the Empire you fondly look back to did not recognise freedom of speech or freedom of assembly.

I think you've made an idol out of "freedom".
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« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2006, 09:54:26 PM »

GiC, I must again ask why you are so concerned with letting people do these things when the Empire you fondly look back to did not recognise freedom of speech or freedom of assembly.

I think you've made an idol out of "freedom".

Indeed. Here's a good one about how the late great G.K. Chesterton would have responded to such nonsense today.

http://extremewisdom.blogs.com/extremewisdom/2005/01/via_brothersjud.html

TJ: We do believe in things: democracy, freedom....

GKC: Your thinking is irredeemably muddled. Those are means, not ends. You can't say you believe in democracy per se. You would have to tell me what you believe democracy can achieve. Besides, I think you're confusing liberty with libertinism, freedom -- as Milton said -- with licence. Freedom, for your generation, implies the removal of all constraint. That's not freedom but licentiousness; from a Christian point of view, it's nothing other than the complete removal of freedom. It is slavery to sin. You see, freedom only has meaning if it is accompanied by morality, if it implies a choice between good and evil. You can hardly blame the vast majority of the Arab world if they equate your freedom with immorality because they know that you no longer believe in good and evil. A few decades into my afterlife I met Viktor Frankl, and I greatly admired his notion that if the east coast of America has a statue of liberty, the west one desperately requires a statue of responsibility. The one without the other has no meaning. Talk all you want about human rights, gay rights, women's rights, - but I insist that you tell me what you think are the complementary human responsibilities, gay responsibilities, women's responsibilities. That is why I wrote in What's Wrong With The World that: "Most modern freedom is at root fear. It is not so much that we are too bold to endure rules; it is rather that we are too timid to endure responsibilities."


Emphasis is mine.ÂÂ  The last quote is from the real Chesterton.
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« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2006, 10:03:54 PM »

Quote
I think you've made an idol out of "freedom".

There is also a pragmatic end to this.  A growing number of Orthodox Christians live in America, Canada, Australia and Germany.  By the end of the year Romania and Bulgaria will be EU memebers (with Greece having been in EU for some time).  Once Serbia cleans up its act it is on the path to entering the EU.  Freedom is simply the way it is going to be for the forseeable future for MANY Orthodox Christians - we can either find ways for the Church to prosper in the Free world or watch our membership fall to nothing as nostalgia for the old Theocracies takes hold.   
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« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2006, 11:00:32 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9156.msg123134#msg123134 date=1149559434]
Once Serbia cleans up its act it is on the path to entering the EU.
[/quote]

We will never "clean up our act", because we would be forced to clean up ours and everyone elses s*** by ourselves.(forgive me). We will not join the EU in the next 10 years, And I even hope that we will never join the EU.

Quote
Freedom is simply the way it is going to be for the forseeable future for MANY Orthodox Christians - we can either find ways for the Church to prosper in the Free world or watch our membership fall to nothing as nostalgia for the old Theocracies takes hold.

How can you be so, nearly blinded? Freedom is merely an illusion. How can freedom really exist when people are "forced" into freedom? You believe the western world is free because you have the choice to pick what movie you wanna watch tonight, what food you get to eat, publically display your sexual preference etc... freedom of expression cannot be complete freedom if you dont have an expression on topics since the government keeps you in the dark about half of them. Think about it, do you actually believe that you know 75% of the major issues going on in the world?

"Total Freedom" is the beginning of the end for not just Orthodox Christians, but all of mankind.
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« Reply #79 on: June 06, 2006, 12:34:02 AM »

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We will never "clean up our act", because we would be forced to clean up ours and everyone elses s*** by ourselves.(forgive me). We will not join the EU in the next 10 years, And I even hope that we will never join the EU.

Who is the we, I thought you lived in Canada? 

That aside, eventually a fair number of Serbs will be citizens of EU states either in Montenegro or Bosnia.  When the current roadblock with the EU is bypassed, I highly doubt Serbia will not want EU integration - but only time will tell. 

Quote
How can you be so, nearly blinded? Freedom is merely an illusion. How can freedom really exist when people are "forced" into freedom?

Rather than focus on a never ending debate about the merits of modern Western society, let's settle that by "freedom" I mean that which is defined as "freedom" in states such as America, Canada, Australia, the EU etc - regardless of whether that is true freedom.  The reality is NATO is the most power military alliance for the time being and that "freedom" will be the society in which MILLIONS of Orthodox Christians are/will be living.  Hence, my opinion, that the Church should focus on guiding those of un in those societies on how to be Orthodox within such societies - even to use the present situation for missionary work and expansion of Orthodoxy. 
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« Reply #80 on: June 06, 2006, 01:15:37 AM »

How can you force our idea of morality on people and still claim to be a democracy?
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« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2006, 01:41:04 AM »

How can you force our idea of morality on people and still claim to be a democracy?

Majority rules in democracy. Getting the majority of people to vote for a man who bans homosexual antics in the country's capital is perfectly democratic.  On the other hand, forcing a society to accept homosexual marriages against their will is not.

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« Reply #82 on: June 06, 2006, 01:46:41 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9156.msg123143#msg123143 date=1149568442]
Who is the we, I thought you lived in Canada?ÂÂ  

That aside, eventually a fair number of Serbs will be citizens of EU states either in Montenegro or Bosnia.ÂÂ  When the current roadblock with the EU is bypassed, I highly doubt Serbia will not want EU integration - but only time will tell.ÂÂ  

Rather than focus on a never ending debate about the merits of modern Western society, let's settle that by "freedom" I mean that which is defined as "freedom" in states such as America, Canada, Australia, the EU etc - regardless of whether that is true freedom.ÂÂ  The reality is NATO is the most power military alliance for the time being and that "freedom" will be the society in which MILLIONS of Orthodox Christians are/will be living.ÂÂ  Hence, my opinion, that the Church should focus on guiding those of un in those societies on how to be Orthodox within such societies - even to use the present situation for missionary work and expansion of Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

It's sad, but Orthodoxy has to face the inevitable.  Our toughest challenge is ahead of us.

Luke 18:8 
Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

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« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2006, 02:04:38 AM »

Majority rules in democracy. Getting the majority of people to vote for a man who bans homosexual antics in the country's capital is perfectly democratic.ÂÂ  On the other hand, forcing a society to accept homosexual marriages against their will is not.



Exactly, hence "force".  In any case, even if you elect someone to office who supposedly holds our morals, that doesn't automatically mean s/he'll have the ability to change the force of law.
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« Reply #84 on: June 06, 2006, 02:49:41 AM »

Majority rules in democracy. Getting the majority of people to vote for a man who bans homosexual antics in the country's capital is perfectly democratic.ÂÂ  On the other hand, forcing a society to accept homosexual marriages against their will is not.

There is more to our form of government (which is technically a Constitutional Republic, if one cares about such technicalities) than simply mob rule. Part of ideal of government (the constitutional part) is that it will protect certain rights (such as the freedom of speech and expression) regardless of the opinion of the majority. These rights are not subject to the whims of the majority and are, by their very nature, unalienable. The violation of these rights undermines the legitimacy of the state and justifies the citizens to take whatever actions they deem necessary in order that said rights be restored. Paramount amongst these rights is the Freedom of Speech, which is absolute and should be protected regardless of majority opinion.
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« Reply #85 on: June 06, 2006, 02:58:35 AM »

GiC, I must again ask why you are so concerned with letting people do these things when the Empire you fondly look back to did not recognise freedom of speech or freedom of assembly.

I think you've made an idol out of "freedom".

That was a different time and a different era, even monarchies today (e.g. the UK) are compelled to accept the fundamental rights of the subjects of the realm. And concerning the Empire, she did offer far more rights and liberties to her Citizens than did most (any that I can think of) other contemporary governments. To directly compare the Empire of a thousand years ago with the states of today are absurd, as it would be absurd to directly compare the any government of that time with a modern, civilized, western state.

Finally, it should be noted that it was the Empire herself who pioneered the system of checks and balances and representative form of government that is the basis for ours, for the Empire was in her early and formative years ruled by the Senate and as a check against the authority of the upper classes there was the Tribune of Plebes with absolute veto power. Those these systems were later abused and fell into disuse, they were the basis of the Empire as they are the basis of our Government today.
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« Reply #86 on: June 06, 2006, 03:08:06 AM »

Quote
It's sad, but Orthodoxy has to face the inevitable.  Our toughest challenge is ahead of us

Hardly.  Most in Western states are simply indifferent to Orthodoxy.  I think that many Orthodox, in their nostalgia, lose sight of the the fact that for 300 years the Church prospered under the pagan Roman Empire.  I find it amazing that some people think so little of Orthodoxy, that they believe it must be protected by secular governments in order to survive.  Should we not have some faith that God will preserve the Church? ÂÂ

As a side note, in Fr. Seraphim Rose's biography it is mentioned that he lost much of his faith in Taoism when he mentor confided that were the oppresive measures of the Chinese government to continue, the faith could be eradicated.  Why do Orthodox people seem to think that if "Orthodox" governments cease to exist, the Church will also cease? ÂÂ
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« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2006, 04:12:20 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9156.msg123159#msg123159 date=1149577686]Hardly.  Most in Western states are simply indifferent to Orthodoxy.  I think that many Orthodox, in their nostalgia, lose sight of the the fact that for 300 years the Church prospered under the pagan Roman Empire.  I find it amazing that some people think so little of Orthodoxy, that they believe it must be protected by secular governments in order to survive.  Should we not have some faith that God will preserve the Church? 
[/quote]

I never said that it wouldn't survive (God has assured us that it will).  Actually, I'm not concerned about the church's survival, but the quantity of souls that it can save once secularism or other anti-christian ideology becomes the authority.  Take the case of the churches of the middle east.  Both Syria and Egypt used to be very influential, and after converting to Islam, they are barely surviving today. 

Quote
Why do Orthodox people seem to think that if "Orthodox" governments cease to exist, the Church will also cease? 

You're the only one who said that.
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« Reply #88 on: June 06, 2006, 04:54:10 AM »

How can you force our idea of morality on people and still claim to be a democracy?
I have no respect for democracy anyway, at least not the western type.  Actually western democracy is no better than Islam, they both seek to impose their ideology on every nation of earth.  At least the muslims do it through conviction, whereas the hypocritcal western democracies do it through greed while claiming to do it for high ideals.  Both use violence to achieve their ends. Democracy is another form of relatavism.  If the majority decide that a triangle has four sides, or that homosexuality is normal, or that God doesnt exist, I couldnt care less. 
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« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2006, 05:01:56 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9156.msg123143#msg123143 date=1149568442]
 Hence, my opinion, that the Church should focus on guiding those of un in those societies on how to be Orthodox within such societies - even to use the present situation for missionary work and expansion of Orthodoxy.ÂÂ  
[/quote]
Thats all well and good, but some posters on here seem to want to turn Orthodox in eastern Europe into impotent bystanders.  Just because you are a minority with no voice or influence in the west, it doesnt follow that we should welcome the secularization of our societies on the basis that the Church will survive anyway.  Ive no doubt the Church will survive no matter what, it doesnt mean that we should actively make things more difficult for ourselves.  God has and will send us enough challenges, without us having to concoct new ones of our own.
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