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Author Topic: Moscow's First Gay Pride Parade Disrupted by Police and Hecklers  (Read 40067 times) Average Rating: 0
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ozgeorge
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« Reply #180 on: November 14, 2006, 06:15:42 AM »

The Church needs to guide people to chastity, not accept unchastity and counsel condom use.
lubeltri,
I don't think anyone here is advocating unchastity. The reality is, though, people have always had to deal with temptations to unchastity, and often failed- the Bible is full of stories where people were unchaste, and indeed, the geneology of Our Lord Jesus Christ includes people who were unchaste. In St. Matthew's geneology of the ancestors of Our Lord, he lists among Christ's ancestors:
1) Tamar who conceived through incest with her father-in-law;
2) Rahab who was a prostitute, and
3) Bathsheba who was an adultress.

Unchastity is a powerful passion which is difficult to overcome for many (if not most). People will stumble, but thanks be to God who in His mercy allows repentance.

Imagine for a minute that you are the father of a teenage son. Let's say that your son does not agree with your ideas about chastity. Would you tell him not to use condoms in the hope that he would remain chaste? Will you be pleased if, by not using condoms, he contracted the HIV virus? Of course you wouldn't! In the same way, if the Church forbids and opposes the production and provision of condoms, she is condemning to death those who fall into sin.

It's not about promoting unchastity, it's about saving lives. Millions are dying of AIDS in Africa, millions of infants have been left orphaned because of the AIDS crisis there. In countries where there was a rapid reponse to the AIDS crisis (such as Australia) which responded with education programs promoting safer sex, ans safer injecting drug use, AIDS has been, for the most part, controlled. This was not the case in Africa, which is why we have the disaster which exists there now.

George
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« Reply #181 on: November 15, 2006, 04:18:02 PM »

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That's just a bit of a stretch there. If you wish to give tactic approval to a group encouraging sinful behavior, that is your right, but kindly do so without hurling outrageous condemnations at those who chose not to remain silent.

My apologies if I am slightly disturbed by people who oppose the containment of disease on account of so-called moral reasons.

I accept your apology for twisting my words into the nonsensical falsehood that you posted against me.
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« Reply #182 on: November 15, 2006, 04:18:58 PM »

I don't think anyone here is advocating unchastity.

I believe it is quite clear that the two men in their funny little costumes were doing exactly that.
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« Reply #183 on: November 15, 2006, 06:22:07 PM »

I believe it is quite clear that the two men in their funny little costumes were doing exactly that.
Thank you for your opinion.
My opinion is that they were promoting safer sex.
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« Reply #184 on: November 15, 2006, 06:26:44 PM »

Thank you for your opinion.
My opinion is that they were promoting safer sex.
Wow. Are you serious? Or is this satire.
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« Reply #185 on: November 15, 2006, 06:32:45 PM »

Wow. Are you serious? Or is this satire.

<sigh>
I wish people would actually read threads (and not simply the last post) before deciding to post in them......
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9156.msg138264.html#msg138264

I know that the age of internet has contributed to people's attention span being limited to that of a tse-tse fly, but I think we should make an effort nonetheless.
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« Reply #186 on: November 15, 2006, 08:56:18 PM »

Wow. Are you serious? Or is this satire.
I fear that it was not satire. It is a shame when some Christians will not stand against those that call evil good.
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« Reply #187 on: November 15, 2006, 09:12:31 PM »

I fear that it was not satire. It is a shame when some Christians will not stand against those that call evil good.

So is saving people from disease and death from AIDS evil in and of itself, or only when we're talking about saving Africans from those?
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« Reply #188 on: November 15, 2006, 09:20:19 PM »

I fear that it was not satire. It is a shame when some Christians will not stand against those that call evil good.
I happen to agree with OzGeorge here.  Could you please show me where he has called evil good in this thread?

Back in the late 1970's there was a call-in radio program which featured a woman named Doctor Ruth.  The program was geared towards college students and Dr Ruth talked about and answered questions about sex.  One of Dr Ruth's favorite questions was "Do you use condoms?"
During one show a Protestant minister called in and started going after her about how disgusting her show was, how it should be taken off the air, etc., and how he didn't want his children listening to her.  To this she responded, "If you don't want your children to listen to Dr Ruth, tell them 'Don't listen to Dr Ruth'."  The minister answered that children didn't always listen to their parents.  To which she responded, "Well, if they aren't listening to you, than maybe it is important that they listen to me!"
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« Reply #189 on: November 16, 2006, 03:11:54 AM »

<sigh>
I wish people would actually read threads (and not simply the last post) before deciding to post in them......
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9156.msg138264.html#msg138264

I know that the age of internet has contributed to people's attention span being limited to that of a tse-tse fly, but I think we should make an effort nonetheless.
Nice Charitable response.  Wink
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« Reply #190 on: November 16, 2006, 03:13:26 AM »

So is saving people from disease and death from AIDS evil in and of itself, or only when we're talking about saving Africans from those?
If you are not in a committed marriage, if you have AIdS, you should not be having sex at all. Condomes just allow people to do what they want without having to restrain themselves.
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« Reply #191 on: November 16, 2006, 06:55:25 AM »

"If you don't want your children to listen to Dr Ruth, tell them 'Don't listen to Dr Ruth'."  The minister answered that children didn't always listen to their parents.  To which she responded, "Well, if they aren't listening to you, than maybe it is important that they listen to me!"
LOL! Cheesy
I love that one!

If you are not in a committed marriage, if you have AIdS, you should not be having sex at all.
Thank you for your opinion, which makes absolutely no sense since it assumes that:
A) You know that you are carrying the HIV virus, and
B) You subscribe to Judeo-Christian type moral values.
So the only way your theory would work is if everyone was tested for HIV every day and was a believer in a Faith with forbids extramarital sex. And since you have no control over these two criteria, and the reality is that they are never going to be realised, what you are suggesting makes no sense. Condoms, on the other hand, do make sense if you are not going to abstain from sex. This has already been discussed at length on this thread, by myself and others, in response to similar statements such as yours, so I suggest (in charity Wink) that you take the time to read what has been said rather than just go in circles.
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« Reply #192 on: November 16, 2006, 09:25:03 AM »

So is saving people from disease and death from AIDS evil in and of itself, or only when we're talking about saving Africans from those?
I see that trying to put words in my mouth has become a pattern here.

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« Reply #193 on: November 16, 2006, 09:25:26 AM »

Shock and scandal would probably be the most effective rhetorical tool at this point, unfortunately I have to tone it down a bit because our censors and thought police would look unfavourably on that (as they did a little while back with my wonderful collection of islamic cartoons Grin), so here goes, I am sure, nothing...

It would seem that those who oppose the use of condoms do so under a misconception. It would appear from the past few posts that they believe that simply because a condom is put on prior to sexual intercourse that the decision to put a condom on is made before the decision to have sexual relations. However, I doubt that many people wake up in the morning, put a condom on when they put their socks on and then decide, 'Hey, I'm wearing a condom perhaps I should go out and have extramarital intercourse.' No, in the words of my favourite one-liner from Crimson Tide 'You don't put on a condom unless you're gonna (insert traditional Anglo-Saxon term for "have sexual intercourse" here)!'

When someone decides whether or not to wear a condom the decision to have sex is already made. Thus, the decision to use a condom is not a decision about sex, rather it is a decision about sanitation, disease control, and saving lives.
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« Reply #194 on: November 16, 2006, 09:27:53 AM »

Quote from: BoredMeeting
I fear that it was not satire. It is a shame when some Christians will not stand against those that call evil good.

I happen to agree with OzGeorge here.  Could you please show me where he has called evil good in this thread?
I was referring to the two men in their little costumes encouraging others to commit sodomy and several posters who cannot bring themselves to state that such encouragement is wrong.
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« Reply #195 on: November 16, 2006, 09:31:02 AM »

I was referring to the two men in their little costumes encouraging others to commit sodomy and several posters who cannot bring themselves to state that such encouragement is wrong.

I see my previous post went unnoted. But to sum up, they were not encouraging sodomy, if someone is going to engage in sodomy they will do so with or without condoms. All these gentlemen were doing is trying to curtail the spread of disease, they were probably doing far more good than the vast majority of people on this board will ever do.
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« Reply #196 on: November 16, 2006, 09:34:46 AM »

I was referring to the two men in their little costumes encouraging others to commit sodomy and several posters who cannot bring themselves to state that such encouragement is wrong.

Wow, now "damage control" is "encouragement."  So basically, if people aren't going to keep their flies zipped, we should stand by and say they deserve whatever diseases follow?
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« Reply #197 on: November 16, 2006, 10:12:21 AM »

When someone decides whether or not to wear a condom the decision to have sex is already made. Thus, the decision to use a condom is not a decision about sex, rather it is a decision about sanitation, disease control, and saving lives.
BINGO!
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« Reply #198 on: November 16, 2006, 01:00:30 PM »


B) You subscribe to Judeo-Christian type moral values.

The point is, the Church operates under the assumption that these "Judeo-Christian type moral values" are objectively true and universal. Thus it should not be in the business of promoting condom use. The Church should be focused on the hereafter, not sacrificing eternity for worldly concerns. Secular states or other religions can promote condom use, but the Church should not wink at fornication among its flock.
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« Reply #199 on: November 16, 2006, 01:06:37 PM »

I see my previous post went unnoted. But to sum up, they were not encouraging sodomy, if someone is going to engage in sodomy they will do so with or without condoms. All these gentlemen were doing is trying to curtail the spread of disease, they were probably doing far more good than the vast majority of people on this board will ever do.

Considering that condoms are far from fullproof in protecting HIV transmission during sodomy, I would discourage anal sex altogether.
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« Reply #200 on: November 16, 2006, 03:32:00 PM »

...they were probably doing far more good than the vast majority of people on this board will ever do.
Speak for yourself, John.
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« Reply #201 on: November 16, 2006, 04:37:22 PM »

Considering that condoms are far from fullproof in protecting HIV transmission during sodomy, I would discourage anal sex altogether.
Firstly, you still stand much better chances of not contracting HIV wearing a condom than not. Secondly, it is not simply anal sex which is risky, vaginal sex carries an equal risk, so shouldn't we discourage vaginal sex also?
I think, the problem with the position held by you and boardmeeting is that you have confused your aversion to homosexuality (which is commendable) with handing out medical advice based on that morality rather than science (which is reprehensible). The problem with focussing on HIV as "the gay plague" and making it a moral issue (eg thinking that "discouraging anal sex" reduces the incidence) is precisely why there is now a disaster in Africa- because people were not properly informed and advised to take precautions.
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« Reply #202 on: November 16, 2006, 05:17:16 PM »

My point, Ozgeorge, is that it is not for the Church to dispense medical advice. It is there to speak for morality, and it would compromise its mission to be promoting condom use and handing out condoms. Let secular authorities and groups, not bound by that mission, to get in the condom business. It would be scandalous for a Church that recognizes condoms as birth control and thus wrong to be promoting condom use.
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« Reply #203 on: November 16, 2006, 05:26:11 PM »

My point, Ozgeorge, is that it is not for the Church to dispense medical advice.
I absolutely agree. So then you can see that discouraging anal sex simply on the basis of HIV transmission (as you suggested) is ridiculous since vaginal sex, by the same logic, should also be discouraged. Therefore, the Church should hold no opinion about people using condoms to prevent HIV and other STD's.
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« Reply #204 on: November 16, 2006, 05:47:44 PM »

The Church should simply say that chastity and monogamy are the only moral option.

The point about preventing HIV and anal sex---I was just making the point that anal sex is an extremely risky activity, and condoms reduce the risk of transmission, but they still fail quite often (much less so with vaginal sex). It's still risky (which is why they are now calling it "safer" sex, since it is still not exceedingly safe). As a doctor or medical authority, I would discourage anal sex period, with or without a condom.
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« Reply #205 on: November 16, 2006, 05:56:36 PM »

(much less so with vaginal sex)
Huh evidence?
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« Reply #206 on: November 16, 2006, 06:16:14 PM »

Well, this is hardly the place to have a medical discussion, but I would think some of the reasons would be obvious (though probably not appropriate to describe on this forum).

Some are mentioned here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_sex#Risks.2C_safer_sex_and_HIV
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« Reply #207 on: November 16, 2006, 06:18:48 PM »

Huh evidence?

I just took a second look at your post. Perhaps you are thinking I wrote that condoms are less effective with vaginal sex? I should have been clearer. Condoms are more effective with vaginal than anal (though, of course, they still can fail). The risk of fluid transfer is greater in the rectum, and condoms are more prone to slippage or damage when inserted in someone's bottom.
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« Reply #208 on: November 16, 2006, 06:37:06 PM »

My point, Ozgeorge, is that it is not for the Church to dispense medical advice. It is there to speak for morality, and it would compromise its mission to be promoting condom use and handing out condoms. Let secular authorities and groups, not bound by that mission, to get in the condom business.

Of course, the issue presented is two secular people handing out condoms, they wern't being handed out in Church during the divine liturgy.

Quote
It would be scandalous for a Church that recognizes condoms as birth control and thus wrong to be promoting condom use.

Speak for yourself, not for the Church as a whole. I and many I know and know of in the Church, at all levels, support birth control.

Well, this is hardly the place to have a medical discussion, but I would think some of the reasons would be obvious (though probably not appropriate to describe on this forum).

And why isn't this the place for a medical discussion that is relevant to the thread at hand? Do you honestly believe that modern medicine is so evil that it cannot even be mentioned in polite company? Throughout history physical and spiritual medicine operated side by side in the Church who ran most the hospitals and cared for the sick. Today too many of us are caught up in the dark ages for us to even be looked to as a viable caregiving institution.
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« Reply #209 on: November 16, 2006, 07:02:07 PM »

Of course, the issue presented is two secular people handing out condoms, they wern't being handed out in Church during the divine liturgy.

Speak for yourself, not for the Church as a whole. I and many I know and know of in the Church, at all levels, support birth control.

And why isn't this the place for a medical discussion that is relevant to the thread at hand? Do you honestly believe that modern medicine is so evil that it cannot even be mentioned in polite company? Throughout history physical and spiritual medicine operated side by side in the Church who ran most the hospitals and cared for the sick. Today too many of us are caught up in the dark ages for us to even be looked to as a viable caregiving institution.

You clearly misunderstand me. Perhaps you are not reading closely.

First of all, I was not speaking of your church, I was speaking of mine (Catholic), where the immorality of contraception is a point of faith. Obviously there is no longer consensus in Orthodoxy. If you feel the Orthodox church should promote condom use, that is your business, none of mine.

I was avoiding description not because I am "caught up in the dark ages" of antipathy to "evil" medicine but because it would entail the discussion of details of anal sex---rectums, micro-tears, etc.---which others may not feel comfortable reading.



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« Reply #210 on: November 16, 2006, 07:46:23 PM »

Speak for yourself, not for the Church as a whole. I and many I know and know of in the Church, at all levels, support birth control.

Even the most liberal advice I've read for married couples holds that the use of birth control is to be decided in consultation with one's spiritual father, who may very well say no. Because the role of deciding these belongs with one's spiritual father, it's inappropriate for you to be calling for their use here.
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« Reply #211 on: November 16, 2006, 08:08:43 PM »

Even the most liberal advice I've read for married couples holds that the use of birth control is to be decided in consultation with one's spiritual father, who may very well say no. Because the role of deciding these belongs with one's spiritual father, it's inappropriate for you to be calling for their use here.

Usually I agree with GiC on many, but not all, things.  Mr. Culver's right here.
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« Reply #212 on: November 16, 2006, 10:53:02 PM »

Even the most liberal advice I've read for married couples holds that the use of birth control is to be decided in consultation with one's spiritual father, who may very well say no. Because the role of deciding these belongs with one's spiritual father, it's inappropriate for you to be calling for their use here.

Then you clearly haven't spoken with the true liberals in the Church. I personally see no reason to discourage birth control at all. Now we should certainly condemn extramarital affairs, but if these affairs are going to happen anyway, it's certainly preferable they happen while birth control is being used. As to within the context of marriage, it's always helpful to speak with one's spiritual father, but I see no reason why a couple is incapable of considering their situation and deciding what is best.
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« Reply #213 on: November 16, 2006, 10:55:22 PM »

Usually I agree with GiC on many, but not all, things.  Mr. Culver's right here.

Well, it probably doesn't help that I have drifted a bit to the left over the past couple years. Though don't expect me to join the ACLU anytime soon Wink
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« Reply #214 on: November 16, 2006, 11:10:58 PM »

Back when the Church of England was debating birth control in the 1920s, Gilbert Keith Chesterton weighed in on it:

"What is quaintly called Birth Control . . . is in fact, of course, a scheme for preventing birth in order to escape control."

"Normal and real birth control is called self control."

"Birth Control is a name given to a succession of different expedients by which it is possible to filch the pleasure belonging to a natural process while violently and unnaturally thwarting the process itself."

"We can always convict such people of sentimentalism by their weakness for euphemism. The phrase they use is always softened and suited for journalistic appeals. They talk of free love when they mean something quite different, better defined as free lust. But being sentimentalists they feel bound to simper and coo over the word "love." They insist on talking about Birth Control when they mean less birth and no control. We could smash them to atoms, if we could be as indecent in our language as they are immoral in their conclusions."
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« Reply #215 on: November 17, 2006, 12:21:21 AM »

Good post, lubeltri,

Pro-'choice"; Right to Choose; Women's Rights (I love that one...aren't 50% prevented children female? 50% aborted children female?)
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« Reply #216 on: November 17, 2006, 02:07:06 AM »

Actually, female unborn and female infants are snuffed out more often than males across the world. In many countries, females have less value. Women's rights indeed!

You're right about euphenisms, Αριστοκλής. One current one I really detest: "marriage equality."
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« Reply #217 on: November 17, 2006, 10:07:53 AM »

I personally see no reason to discourage birth control at all.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, even though it goes against the official teachings of the Orthodox Church. People place themselves outside of the Church everyday. We can only pray that they do not come to the end of this life there.
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« Reply #218 on: November 17, 2006, 10:19:02 AM »

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, even though it goes against the official teachings of the Orthodox Church. People place themselves outside of the Church everyday. We can only pray that they do not come to the end of this life there.

Please, tell me, of which Patriarchal Encyclical am I in violation? Which Synod of the Holy and Great Church of Christ am I contradicting? The Church has no position on the matter, and the Church should have no position on the matter; it is a medical and scientific, not theological, issue. I fear that it is you who are pretending to speak for the Church, when the Church remains silent. So who made you the spokesperson for the Synod of Constantinople?
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« Reply #219 on: November 17, 2006, 11:37:30 AM »

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, even though it goes against the official teachings of the Orthodox Church. People place themselves outside of the Church everyday. We can only pray that they do not come to the end of this life there. 

Methinks you mean that there are Fathers who condemn the practice, no that it is "official."  Regardless of your or my position on birth control, you'll actually have to provide proof that it is "official teaching" of the Church by producing Synodal decrees and providing the context information for the synods: i.e. who was there, was this accepted as universal or is it local, etc.  Even encyclical letters will do, but they only apply within a particular area, and so you'll have to document that.

If we do our due diligence in matters like this, then our positions will be strengthened beyond hope of defeat.
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« Reply #220 on: November 17, 2006, 11:49:24 AM »

Please, tell me, of which Patriarchal Encyclical am I in violation? Which Synod of the Holy and Great Church of Christ am I contradicting?

Are you married? Have you discussed the issue with your spiritual father? If the answer to both questions is no, what business do you have making statements about the use of birth control?
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« Reply #221 on: November 17, 2006, 12:04:24 PM »

The Church has no position on the matter, and the Church should have no position on the matter; it is a medical and scientific, not theological, issue. I fear that it is you who are pretending to speak for the Church, when the Church remains silent. So who made you the spokesperson for the Synod of Constantinople?

Just quoting their teachings, actually. The Church has not remained silent on homosexuality nor birth control. You can deny knowledge of their teachings, but denying that their teachings exist in another matter entirely.

Quote from: St. John Chrysostom
Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit? Where there are medicines of sterility? Where there is murder before birth? You do not even let a harlot remain a harlot, but you make her a murderess as well. Do you see that from drunkenness comes fornication, from fornication adultery, from adultery murder? Indeed, it is something worse than murder and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you contemn the gift of God, and fight with His laws? What is a curse, do you seek as though it were a blessing? Do you make the anteroom of birth the anteroom of slaughter? Do you teach the woman who is given to you for the procreation of offspring to perpetrate killing? That she may always be beautiful and lovable to her lovers, and that she may rake in more money, she does not refuse to do this, heaping fire on your head; and even if the crime is hers, you are the cause. Hence also arise idolatries. To look pretty many of these women use incantations, libations, philtres, potions, and innumerable other things. Yet after such turpitude, after murder, after idolatry, the matter still seems indifferent to many men--even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumberable tricks, invocations of demons, incantations of the dead, daily wars, ceaseless battles, and unremitting contentions.
{St. John Chrysostom, Homily 24 on the Epistle to the Romans (PG 60:626-27) }
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« Reply #222 on: November 17, 2006, 09:08:33 PM »

Are you married? Have you discussed the issue with your spiritual father? If the answer to both questions is no, what business do you have making statements about the use of birth control?

Only to counter the atrocious and immoral opposition to birth control; if none spoke in opposition to it, you are correct that there would be no need for me to defend it. But so long as people oppose the use of birth control there is a moral obligation for rational people to speak up in its defence, lest poor fool come to harm by listening to this dark age advice. Fortunately, we are coming to a point in our society where birth control is universally accepted, except for a few fundamentalists on the extreme fringe; so in this context the reason for my arguing for birth control is simply intellectual self-pleasuring (like most things we discuss on this site). Cheesy

Just quoting their teachings, actually. The Church has not remained silent on homosexuality nor birth control. You can deny knowledge of their teachings, but denying that their teachings exist in another matter entirely.

You provided the private opinion, and while it is the private opinion of an intelligent man. It must be understood that he lived in an era that was deprived of the medical and scientific knowledge we now enjoy, thus making his opinion uninformed at best. Furthermore, it's still a private opinion. It's not even an encyclical, it's merely a homily, it was promulgated by no synod. Surely you understand the requirements for a belief to become binding dogma. So where is the synodal condemnation of Birth Control?
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« Reply #223 on: November 17, 2006, 10:23:27 PM »

Are you married? Have you discussed the issue with your spiritual father? If the answer to both questions is no, what business do you have making statements about the use of birth control?
Was St. John Chrysostom married? If we follow this logic, we should also reject St. John Chrysostom's teaching on contraception and abortifacients as being unauthoritative.
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« Reply #224 on: November 20, 2006, 09:53:44 AM »

Curious how a discussion about the Church's condemnation of immorality has been sidetracked into a discussion as to whether or not the Church has condemned contraception?

I take it then that we are commonly resolved that the Church has condemned sexual immorality, including homosexuality, and that no Orthodox Christian could support this so-called "Pride" parade of shame?  Very good!
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