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Author Topic: Franz Ferdinand  (Read 1113 times) Average Rating: 0
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coptic orthodox boy
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« on: May 22, 2006, 10:47:36 PM »

Hello All

Currently I'm reading John Cornwell's Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII (picked the wrong book up at the library, but still decided to give it a read), and have some questions concerning the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. Last semester during my history class, I asked my professor why a Serb would want to kill the Austrian Archduke.  She stated it had to do with Serbia's desire to have part of the country touching a large body of water.  After reading a chapter in Mr. Cornwell's book, I read of a concordat made between the Vatican and I believe Austria (to be honest, I found the chapter rather difficult to read, since it appears Mr. Cornwell relies,I believe, on the reader's knowledge of certain major events during this time in Serbia which I'm unfimiliar with) that seems to state a different reason for Ferdinand's assissination (perhaps for Austria to allow Catholic missionaries into Serbia for pro-Vatican relations with Austria).  I hope this doesn't break any forum rules, since this does have to do with politics (though, not American).  Here are my questions:

1)Why was Ferdinand assissinated by a Serb?
2)Is anyone familiar with the concordat I've stated above (please correct my errors where needed), and what exactly this agreement was all about?
3)If you have read Mr. Cornwell's book, is it a reliable source?
4)To go with question 3, there is a title called "Friend of Croatia", and I was also wondering if what is written within this chapter is also reliable (in particular, the slaughter of 100,000s of Serbian Orthodox Christians at this time)?

For all those of Eastern European decent, I apolgize for my lack of knowledge of Eastern European history, and I hope not to stir-up a political thread outside the questions I"ve stated.

Much thanks  Smiley

shawn
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2006, 11:23:53 PM »


1)Why was Ferdinand assissinated by a Serb?
2)Is anyone familiar with the concordat I've stated above (please correct my errors where needed), and what exactly this agreement was all about?
3)If you have read Mr. Cornwell's book, is it a reliable source?
4)To go with question 3, there is a title called "Friend of Croatia", and I was also wondering if what is written within this chapter is also reliable (in particular, the slaughter of 100,000s of Serbian Orthodox Christians at this time)?

1.) Before ww1, approximately 40% of the serbian population was not in Serbia. large serbian population in Bosnia and Croatia were being ruled by the Austrian-Hungarians, hence Franz Ferdinand was the heir to the thrown. Serbia itself, however, was an independant country by then. Serbs wanted to unite all Serbs under one territory and thus wanted to unite Bosnia and parts of Croatia which consisted of Serbs. The assassination happened in Sarajevo Bosnia, sending a messege to them that the Serbs within the Austrian empire did not want to be ruled over anymore. The killing its self was by a small extremist group caled the Black Hand and was not funded by the Serbian government at all.
2.)I'm not understanding the question fully, If you mean the Vatican and Austria, I think they gave up trying to conver the Serbs by then.
3.)havent read it
4.)Are you talking about ww1 or ww2 now? In ww2 over 700 000 Serb Orthodox were killed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4479837.stm) WW1 casualties were mostly military, but I know that 35% percent of the male population died in Serbia during that war.

Your questions are not controversial in any way or debatable, so if you have anymore questions, feel free to ask Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2006, 10:11:14 AM »

COB,

    Here is an interesting article on Gavrilo Princip, which I think gives a pretty balanced account (it's also written by a friend of mine - lol).  http://www.serbianunity.net/culture/history/gavriloprincip/index.html

BTW, in answering question #1, GP was a Serb.
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« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2006, 11:16:23 AM »

I thought he was some pop music artist?






























I was wondering why that name seemed familiar when I saw it a couple of years ago!  Grin
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coptic orthodox boy
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2006, 07:14:57 PM »

Sloga

I would rewrite my question if I knew how Smiley.  I found the chapter within Cornwell's book very confusing, so it is vague in my hope that someone can help identify my quesiton exactly (that is, my second question).  Thanks for answering my first question. 

Concerning question number 4, I'll give a few quotes from Mr. Cornwell's work.  All the events take place during the early 1940s:

"The boundaries of the new state encompassed Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, and a large part of Dalmatia.  Out of a popluation of some 6,700,000, 3,300,000 were Croats (and hence Catholics), 2,200,000 Orthodox Serbs, 750,000 Moslems, 70,000 Protestants, and some 45,000 Jews.  The existence of the Protestant Germanic minority presented no problem to the Ustahe leadership, nor, strangely, did the large enclave or Muslims.  But the Orthodox Serbs faced "radical solutions," as did the Jews, who were immediately markded down for elemination. pg.250

On April 28 an Ustashe band raided six villages in the Bjelovar district and took out 250 men, including a schoolteacher and an Orthodox priest.  The victims were forced to dig a ditch, then were bound with wire and buried alive.  A few days later, at a place called Otocac, Ustashe rounded up 331 Serbs, including the local Orthodox priest and his son.  Again the victimes were forced to dig their own graves before being hacked to death with axes.  The perpetrators saved teh priest and his boy until the last.  The priest was forced to recited the prayers for the dying while the son was chopped to pieces.  Then the priest was tortured, his hair and beard torn off, his eyes gouged out.  Finally he was skinned alive. pg. 251-52

The totality almost defies belief.  By the most recent reliable reckoning, 487,000 Orthodox Serbs and 27,000 Gypsies were massacred between 1941 and 1945 in the Independent State of Croatia.  In addition, approximately 30,000 out of a population of 45,000 Jews were killed:  20,000 to 25,000 in the Ustashe death camps and another 7,000 deported to the gas chambers.  How was it that despite the strictly authoritarian power relationship between the papacy and the local Church--a power relationship that Pecelli {MY NOTE: PIUS XII} had done so much to establish--no attepmt was made from the Vatican center to halt the killings, the forced conversions, the appropriation of Orthodox property?  How was it that when the atrocities became common knowledge inside the Vatican, as will be shown, Pacelli did not immediately and forthrightly dissociated the Holy See fro the Ustashe actions and condemn the perpetrators? pg. 253

These are passages from Mr. Cornwell's book, and I was wondering if they were reliable (since it isn't always good to believe everything you read).  He describes more attacks on Orthodox Serbs, but I'll refrain from typing those.

SS99

Thanks for the link, I'll give it a read over.  Could you suggest a good book (which would be easy to read and understand as well) concerning Serbia's history.  Thanks

shawn
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2006, 10:59:05 PM »

CO boy,

yea thats what I thought. That information you typed up...uhh..as disturbing as it is, is true. During World War 2, Croats did things to Serbs (and Jews) that even the Germans were disgusted by. Basically, all this was ignored and I'll even go as far as to say ENCOURAGED by the Vatican. Ante Pavelic (the Ustasha leader) had a saying: As for the Serbs, we shall convert 1/3, we shall kill 1/3 and cleanse 1/3. Not to mention the 3rd biggest concentration camp was in Croatia, called Jasenovac (I had Uncles and Grandparents in there...).

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/ <----- very very very Good site regarding the Ustashe in ww2

If you want a book, I'd suggest looking up "Serbs and Croats". But all this is very complicated and disturbing, something that many people cant stand hearing about, so you do what you want.

Peace with us all.
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2006, 09:16:45 PM »

Wasn't Princip made a hero?  I remember statues to him but I can't remember where?  Anyone....? 

My understanding of the whole issue was that Serbs just wanted out of the A-H Empire.  We always were good at war, so why not start one!!   Wink  Embarrassed   Grin 
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2006, 10:01:03 PM »

Wasn't Princip made a hero?ÂÂ  I remember statues to him but I can't remember where?ÂÂ  Anyone....?ÂÂ  

My understanding of the whole issue was that Serbs just wanted out of the A-H Empire.  We always were good at war, so why not start one!!  ÃƒÆ’‚ Wink  Embarrassed  ÃƒÆ’‚ Grin  

In Sarajevo I believe there were statues and I know there used to be a street "Gavrilo Princip" but after the war they changed it to "Alija Izetbegovic". Gavrilo sacrificed his whole life (he was only 18) to free the Serbs from the austrians....he must be crying up in heaven looking down on us.
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Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2006, 10:24:43 AM »

I think at this point its beyond crying.  I think he wishes he had walked the opposite way when he saw that car.... Wink
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