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Author Topic: today is a sad, sad day for all Roman Catholics  (Read 7689 times) Average Rating: 0
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JoeZollars
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« on: October 16, 2002, 11:40:28 AM »

Today the ultimate in innovations have swept the Roman Catholic Church.  

When Vatican II ruined the Mass, they wouldn't dare touch the single most prolific prayer of the Roman Catholic Faithful.  The Holy Rosary.  

Today the Rosary has been touched.  New mysteries have been added.  

According to RC tradition, Mary gave us the Rosary straight from Heaven when she revealed the Rosary to St. Dominic.  Also the number 150 has a special significance as it was sort of the layman's psalter.  But now liberalism has taken its ultimate course, the Rosary has lost all spiritual significance as five new decades have been added.

I am discusted with the RC.  I realized it before, but was trying to reconcile it and still be RC.  There is no truth left in the RC.  That is why it is imperitive that I become Orthodox.

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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2002, 11:55:05 AM »

There are several versions of the Roman Rosary.  Because one version has been introduced doesn't signify the end of the devotion.  What is this new version?

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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2002, 12:05:29 PM »

From my posting today on Steve RayÆs board to a fine conservative Catholic fellow (convert) in Singapore:

I'm fascinated by chant. I love the Tridentine Mass and hope the Church will eventually restore it. I find the current state of the Church (at least in Singapore) depressing. I want to do something about the situation, to do something for the Church

Good on all counts.

Now, our beloved Holy Father has introduced 5 more Mysteries to the 15 decades. I feel upset for at least a couple of reasons:

1) As you all know, the 150 Hail Marys in the Psalter of Mary used to be recited by the faithful in imitation of the monastics who recite all 150 Psalms. Now we're adding 5 more Mysteries to it, wouldn't it break the relationship the Rosary has with the Divine Office and specifically the monastics' recitation of the 150 Psalms?


That [destroying the parallel to the psalms] bugs me too.

2) I don't know if this change will affect the current relationships between the Church and the schismatics. Maybe the Easterns won't bother since they don't say the Rosary? I feel this change might make the effort to restore perfect communion harder. It's no doctrine, yes. But I feel a change in such a popular devotion amongst the faithful will almost definitely make any dialogue harder.

The seeming arbitrariness of changing an 800-year-old practice is disturbing and un-Eastern. But some of the luminous mysteries are far more Eastern than the current Rosary: the Baptism of Christ (Theophany) and the Transfiguration are among the Orthodox ChurchÆs 12 great feast days.

In fact IÆm considering adding those feasts as options on the slightly byzantinized rosary I describe on one of my pages. Maybe replacing two of the sorrowful mysteries, which are very Roman in their piety, thus changing the sorrowful mysteries to the mysteries from the æmid-periodÆ of JesusÆ earthly life and further acculturating it to the Orthodox ethos. (And compare it to the Rule of the Mother of God, described on another page of my site.)

3) I don't see the need to add 5 more Mysteries. To mae the Rosary more Christocentric? Another effort at ecumenism (again)? Aren't the current (or former) 15 Mysteries Christocentric enough?

The luminous mysteries certainly are not heretical but they destroy the order and symmetry of the original rosary, which not only mirrors the 150 psalms (some Orthodox Bibles have 151 but the 151st isnÆt ever used in church) but follows the life of Jesus chronologically.

Better to present the luminous mysteries as a new and separate chaplet, like the Divine Mercy one and the many older, less known prayers using beads (such as the St Michael one) rather than tack them onto the rosary.

I don't hate the fact the Supreme Pontiff doesn't wear the Papal tiara anymore.

I think the tiara is great and resembles the crowns worn by Orthodox bishops, which in turn are based on the crown worn by the eastern Roman (what we now call Byzantine) emperor in church. (The Russian tsarÆs crown looked like a bishopÆs, too.)

I don't hate the fact that Gregorian Chant is almost becoming a lost treasure (or is it one already?) of our (no longer) rich Roman heritage.

I do. If I had my druthers the Mass wouldnÆt be decorated with hymns [at all] but rather would be sung throughout with the actual song of the Church. But I would concede Low Masses with hymns - good, singable, orthodox Lutheran and Anglican ones, for example - owing to longtime custom in Western culture.

And I certainly don't think I'm turning into a traditionalist or schismatic. I do admit that I'm very tempted to join the SSPX at times. But I won't do that. I can't bring myself to.

The SSPX are in a contradictory position so itÆs best not to join them. But traditionalists are right. The Pope can and does make mistakes in prudential judgement, and traditionalists, while accepting the dogmatic teaching of Vatican I, call him on that. And traditionalists oppose the war with Iraq on the grounds of Catholic just-war teaching, as do the mainstream Catholic hierarchy and many Protestant groups. ItÆs the Catholic neocons, people like Regnum Christi, Opus Dei and Crisis magazine, who are throwing away Catholic teaching to bang the drums of Mr BushÆs immoral æpre-emptiveÆ war on a country that is not a threat to the US.

I don't know why but I feel like I've lost something. I think I can expect to see beads with six decades and statues of Our Lady herself and other Saints carrying a set of beads with 6 decades.

Is that how the new decades are going to be done - distributing them through the existing decades, keeping the existing chronological order? [Answer: No.] I thought a new set of five mysteries was being added so the physical equipment of the rosary remains unchanged. {Answer: Yes.]

The mystery of æJesus proclaiming the kingdomÆ seems a bit off ù not based on one event in His earthly life and it sounds like something either the protestant-oriented charismatic RCs or the Æ80s æpeace and justiceÆ heretical types would have cooked up. But on the face of it itÆs not heretical.
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2002, 12:07:32 PM »

Joe:

Call me a heretic/schismatic/whatever.

I am also in the process of becoming Orthodox.

However I am not doing it because I am 'disgusted' with the Roman Catholic church. Nor am I doing it because I have a personal vendetta against it or anyone in that particular church.

No I am doing it out of my ardent desire to fufill my catholicity, and grow spiritually, while at the same time taking the message of Christ to whereever i go, be it work or school.

If you are going to convet to Orthodoxy because you are disgusted with anything, you really need to reconsider!!! Not only are you putting yourself in danger, but you are making Orthodoxy look bad.

Why is this particular addition to the rosary so bad? Is the rosary in some way infallible? Were the previous mysteries somehow taken away?

I think you're making a bigger deal out of this then its worth.


To the rest of the board:

I have noticed, where I am, in the Orthodox church I attend a harbouring "anti" sentiment against the religion the people previously came from. Is this so throughout the rest of Orthodoxy? Or is it something just local to my parish.


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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2002, 12:19:04 PM »

Well put, Bobby. Even people online who donÆt like me personally have made a good point, also articulated by many wise Orthodox, that one must convert for positive reasons, not ONLY because one is running from something (though, letÆs be honest, there is always an element of that in leaving one place for another).

Joe, you donÆt sound interested in being Eastern.

Contact the Orthodox if you want but take your time before you make any change. You already have been through one religious change more momentous than what most people go through in a lifetime, and you are not yet 25. It is neither objectively good for you spiritually nor psychologically healthy to be an ecclesiastical yo-yo. And IÆm sure most Orthodox priests would agree and take you through inquiry/instruction very slowly.

Bobby, I have been to only one Orthodox church in your part of the world and was prepared mentally for the kind of thing you describe. I didnÆt experience it and found my visit there nothing but positive. The church, Antiochian, is mostly former Protestants. Had a pleasant conversation with a former Mennonite in which he was nothing but positive.
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2002, 01:09:46 PM »

Joe,

Please don't think the words of the other posters are harsh. All words can be to our benefit if we allow them to transform us. Don't be quick to agree or disagree, but think about what they're saying, pray a great deal, and then take what good things you can from what they say. After all, worse case scenario, even a broken clock is right twice a day. (Though I personally think they are more than just broken clocks-- they actually sound like an OCA Priest did when he confronted me a few years back, and I'm thankful he did! Smiley )


Bobby,

Quote
I have noticed, where I am, in the Orthodox church I attend a harbouring "anti" sentiment against the religion the people previously came from. Is this so throughout the rest of Orthodoxy? Or is it something just local to my parish.

It differs from parish to parish, and really from person to person. I talk to two Orthodox guys on Paltalk (chat program) that talk about non-Orthodox groups in the most glowing ways. It's no wonder that their "Orthodox" room has attracted many Catholics and Anglicans as well as Orthodox, and that even Messianic Jews and Baptists sometimes lurk in the room. I guess what I'm trying to say is, this thing swings both ways. Some are bitter towards their former affiliations, and some are overly-romanticizing and complimentary of them. I'd say that the majority though, especially when trying to live with an Orthodox, christocentric mindset, at least try to stay positive, and on the whole do stay positive, and do avoid a contrary spirit.
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2002, 01:13:20 PM »

Dear Joe:


Contrary to what you think, it is a happy day for us Roman Catholics!

You are just showing your Protestant bias! (You never spent considerable time as an RC.)

The Holy Rosary is a contemplative prayer to Jesus through Mary.  It is NOT dogma!  In fact, it is a tool now being use by other Christians.

Why don't you read Pope John Paul II's Apostolic Letter "Rosarium Virginis Mariae" at:

http://www.zenit.org/english

and please also read:

http://www.americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0589.asp

and be informed of the history of the Rosary?

Your knowledge of Catholic devotional practices is, indeed, very revealing.

AmdG
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2002, 01:19:19 PM »

I desire conversion to Orthodoxy for many reasons.   This recent addition to the Rosary (ruining its spiritual significance completely) is just one more illustration that whatever is good in RC-land has gone the way of Vatican II.

The main reason that I would convert to Orthodoxy is the fact that the Orthodox have the fullness of Truth.  I have tried fooling myself into believing Rome had this too, but that is becoming increasingly impossible.  Rome is an ecclesiastic yo-yo (sorry to steal the term Serge) because it decides to destroy traditional devotions and piety at whim.  Orthdoxy has on the other hand remained steadfast against the tides of modernism, at least for the most part. Rome is now a big modernist organization through and through.  

As said at another time, I don't sound Eastern because I'm not.  I love the East, but I am intrinsically a Western Christian.  I love my Rosary and my Statues and my Medals.  I know that these are non-essentials and I am prepared to give them up, however I also have a deep love for the western Liturgical tradition.  This tradition is not the same as the East.  I would become Eastern Orthodox, but I think I would be better off spiritually in a Western Orthodox Church.  

Some might say, if you want to be western, be Roman.  This would all be well and good, but the Roman's, IMO, are no longer a spiritually valid Church.  They are a modernist meeting house.  

In all these matters however, I bow to the more spiritually wise on the forum.

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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2002, 01:20:26 PM »

Personally I don't have any issues with the additional mysteries, but the curious thing about this -- and both my wife and I were struck by this in the same way -- is the obviously bureaucratic, centralized, administrative way that this was carried out.  I really can't imagine an Orthodox synod coming out with such a pronouncement about an Orthodox private devotion, like the Jesus prayer.  I think that the way that this was done speaks volumes about the way that the RCC actually works, on a day-to-day basis, and the reason why Orthodoxy remains separated from Catholicism today.
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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2002, 01:24:45 PM »

Joe, youÆre jumping the gun. As distasteful as changing the Rosary might be, the changes arenÆt heretical, and many Orthodox will tell you that attachment to Western devotions isnÆt a motive to convert anyway.

If you can look at RCism the way I look at Anglicanism ù there are orthodox practices and people in it, things I like (and even practise on my own, like reading the Book of Common Prayer for my offices) and even could miss, yet not for one minute would I want to be a member Æcos I know from theology and history it definitely isnÆt the Church ù then convert. I donÆt think thatÆs where you are.

If you want to be a traditional Western apostolic Christian, hook up with the Fraternity of St Peter or some other similar movement in the RCC.

YouÆre not big-O Orthodox, though you are orthodox.
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2002, 01:31:08 PM »

Amadeus:

I read it several hours ago along with numerous commentaries by different people.  Most of the positive commentaries seems to come from charismatics.  This is very telling to me.  My Godmother WAS a devout traditional Catholic.  After the death of her husband she got caught up in the Charismatic prayer meetings at her local NO parish.  Then the Catholic Charismatic group started hosting ecumenical Charismatic prayer groups.  She defined herself as a Catholic Charismatic, then a Charismatic Catholic, then a plain ole' charismatic, and finally a charismatic protestant.  She is now one of the most anti-Catholic people you will ever meet.  

The same people that led this woman away from the Church are heralding this as a renewal of devotion.  What of the "psalter of the laity"?  

A few months ago we RC's were robbed of being able to kneel.  I have been denied communion on many occasions for even so much as trying to recieve in the hand.  Now we can't even pray the Rosary in the traditional manner.

Yes I read the Apostolic Letter.  I think it is great the Holy Father has proclaimed a "year of the Rosary."  But I think it is a horrible mistake to introduce these new mysteries as part of the original Rosary.  He should have introduced them as a new chaplet and then enriched it with indulgences if he wished to encourage its recitation.  

On the SSPX.  They are a route you should never, never take.  I have nothing but sympathy for these people, but they are doing something that is diametrically opposed to the nature of the Church.  The Church is supposed to engage and convert the culture, not try to live as if the past 50 years have never happened. The Church should hold fast to their traditions and try to convert the culture.

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« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2002, 02:53:46 PM »

I know that the changes aren't heretical.  As I said they are simply one more straw on this camel's back.

Conversion will of course take a long time.  I'm not planning on being Orthodox tommorrow.  I know it will take years and believe me it is a decision I don't take lightly.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2002, 03:32:12 PM »

Joe, the prudence exhibited by these posts are to your benefit.

We all of course agree that these devotions aren't essentials, technically.  They should not be a criteria by which one judges whether a Church is true or not.

Yet, it is true that Joe does not exaggerate the magnitude of innovation that is carried out by this novelty.  Traditionalists have two good traits distinguishing them from the commonly-named neocons (political or religious, they're all a sad bunch), and making them more similiar to the Orthodox.  They shun papalatory, ever aware of the restraints of Divine and Natural Law (in Westernspeak) that bind and are placed against the Pope's power, and of the universal criteria by which his actions, in the sense of the wisdom, caution, prudence, and plain commonsense (or lack thereof) behind them, are judged and determined to be beneficial or not.  The second trait is their reverance towards organic development and  popular custom and piety, meaning they understand devotions or modifications to originate from the bottom up, not to be imposed from the top down be decree (the declarations from the top only confirming that which has already started from the bottom).  One may safely argue that this is a hatchet job unwisely executed against an old and intimate Western devotion and its history of development.  Not good.

Regardless Joe, you should remind yourself that the undivided Church was once strongly afflicted with the Arian heresy, and one traditionalist I know likes to quote St. Athanasius: "They may have the churches, but we have the Faith".  Many would believe that the Roman Church is going through a strong trial and chastizement that one day God willing, will be succeeded by a departure from the rotten core of modernism and a return to its tradition.  I don't think more proverbial nails in the coffin in the matter of devotions or otherwise are to be considered a guage of whether there is Truth in the Roman Church or whether the latter is still Church.  The matter of the Rosary is very bad judgement in my opinion, but where real genuine heresy is concerned, I think its widespread proliferation only indicates the strong existance of it amongst many prelates and nominal Catholics, but doesn't impact on whether the Roman Church still has Truth in it or not, as the former is based on what its teachings are.  Again, the undivided Church was sunk in Arianism.  This is but another episode of a cancerous onslaught within the Roman Church, and I wouldn't make conclusions on whether the Catholic Church itself is still Church, based on whether its members adhere to its teachings or not.  

Problems in one Church and justified passionate anger and disappointment are not reasons by which one decides to make impulsive switches between Communions; only doctrinal reasons are responsible, which involve a decision in the making over a good deal of time of reflection.

A saint would see your predicament as a cross for himself to bear.  Fight the good fight in your turf, remains my strong advice to you.  I hope very strongly that you need not go through an interminable period of time testing your patience and endurance, but rather will be provided by God with regular contact with and access to a traditional order (FSSP or others) and Mass to provide you with an oasis for your spiritual patrimony.  You can safely ignore this new addition to the Rosary and follow the traditional form.  As for the priests who refuse you communion, God will judge them accordingly.  Your job is to pray for them.  As the Chinese curse goes, "May you live in interesting times."  We'll have to learn to cope with them.

I do not disagree with your attitude about the SSPX.  Like you, I very strongly sympathize with them and respect the sincere amongst them, and one may suspect dirty politics in Rome (and the SSPX) when negotiations between the two parties are carried out, but vagantism remains vagantism.  And the truth remains that one cannot directly engage the culture in evangelization (despite the fact the SSPX have good numbers) when it operates outside of its proper Communion.  Many traditionalists are now focusing on the progress of the Brazilian arrangement (the society's name escapes me) and how they will fare since they reunited with Rome.  

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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2002, 03:33:36 PM »

one more thing.  I don't align myself with the FSSP because they are buying into alot of the liberal innovations.   Also the indult movement and the Apostolic Administration down in Brazil will not last one day past the reign of this Pope.  The ONLY hope of trads in this world is that the Tridentine Rite be set up as a sui juris Church.  This is not likely to happen.

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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2002, 03:38:15 PM »

Samer:

You couldn't have said it better.



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« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2002, 03:39:45 PM »

Now, our beloved Holy Father has introduced 5 more Mysteries to the 15 decades. I feel upset for at least a couple of reasons:

1) As you all know, the 150 Hail Marys in the Psalter of Mary used to be recited by the faithful in imitation of the monastics who recite all 150 Psalms. Now we're adding 5 more Mysteries to it, wouldn't it break the relationship the Rosary has with the Divine Office and specifically the monastics' recitation of the 150 Psalms?


That [destroying the parallel to the psalms] bugs me too.

This is a point I brought up elsewhere, but I don't think people liked hearing it, so I introduce it very vaguely for a more patient audience.

It is true that the Rosary was meant as a sort of layman's Office, but it is also true that the average man or woman back then either couldn't read or didn't have the books for the Office.

But now the Divine Office has been revised by Vatican II, and the books are everywhere.  The main hours are even published online.  Is there still a place for the Rosary as "the layman's office" when the Office can easily be said by the motivated layman (it takes me half an hour to pray the Rosary well, but in a crunch, I've been able to pray the Latin Liturgy of the Hours in fifteen minutes without omitting a thing)?  

Furthermore, if one prays the Rosary daily, and there are seven days in the week, then 450 Hail Mary's are said, not 300 (two Psalters).  It seems even here the traditional 150-structure was not absolutely kept.  So does everyone want to omit the Rosary one day a week to preserve structure?  Or does everyone want to repeat one set of mysteries more than the others in a given week?  Or is it possible to use these new mysteries on Saturdays, as the documents say, and that's that?  

Personally, I don't know what all the ado is about.  I like the new mysteries...like someone said, they are very Eastern.  Four of the five are celebrated yearly on the Syrian liturgical calendar.  The "Proclamation of the Kingdom" just sounds funny.  I probably might have substituted that with the Wedding (and Miracle) at Cana or something.  In the Roman rite, the visit of the Magi, the Baptism of the Lord, and the Wedding at Cana are all linked on the feast of Epiphany (the Magnificat antiphon at Second Vespers of the feast is particularly beautiful).  I probably would've used that rather than some vague meditation on the "Proclamation".
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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2002, 04:03:36 PM »

Regading the recent recommendations to Joe...

It is wrong for anyone to question the manner and reason in which the Holy Spirit works and sends forth people to the Church. St. Paul was a great persecutor of Christians but yet Christ saw fit to invite him into the Church and personally catechized him for three years. He turned out to be the one to love Jesus the most. So how much better the circumstances with someone such as Joe?

It would only be the demons who would tell you Joe could not be among the greatest of Orthodox saints.

So it is one thing to question the manner and faith in which one is baptized into the Church, which is also on the head of the Orthodox priest, and wholly another to question the reason why someone would be found at the doorstep of the Church.

This is on par with recommending a person with a grave illness to stay with his quack "doctor" because he does not recognize that your hospital is the best.

Joe should find a TRUE Orthodox spiritual father, and rest assured, he will be put in an environment where he can finally begin to heal.
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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2002, 04:05:54 PM »

Mor:

As recommended today by His Holiness, Pope John Paul II, in his Apostolic Letter "Rosarium Virginis Mariae," the 5 "Luminous Mysteries" or the "Mysteries of the Light"  for Thursdays are:

1.  The Baptism of Christ in the Jordan;
2.  The Wedding Feast at Cana;
3.  The Announcement of the Kingdom;
4.  The Transfiguration; and
5.  The Institution of the Eucharist.


AmdG


p.s.  for  SamB:

 
The Brazilian schismatic group who recently reconciled with Rome is the Society of St. John Vianney, which now can celebrate licitly the Tridentine Mass in all their parishes.
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« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2002, 05:03:13 PM »

and the SSJV is growing by leaps and bounds +Rifan (the CoadJuror with right of Succession for the SSJV) even says that they are being contacted by thousands of people dissatisfied with the NO.  Who could blame em?

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« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2002, 05:13:12 PM »

Orthodoxyordeath:

Me a Saint?  have you ever thought about getting stronger perscription for those specs? Smiley

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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2002, 11:05:43 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Furthermore, if one prays the Rosary daily, and there are seven days in the week, then 450 Hail Mary's are said, not 300 (two Psalters).

Dear Mor,

     Umm, I know math isn't your string suit, but 450 is still divisible by 150. Its 3x150. God Bless!
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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2002, 02:15:30 AM »

what of those of us who pray 15 decades a day?

Despite what was proported by Dr. Roman at a forum we all remember, 5 more decades really does matter.  

In the case of some, add this to: 15decades of the Rosary,
Daily Mass,
Divine Mercy Chaplet
etc, it really becomes a lot.

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« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2002, 10:03:47 AM »

As a former RC I harbour no ill will towards my former religion.  I do, however, feel sorry for those still there who are denied the full truth of faith.  The new "mysteries" which are being added to the rosary should not come as a surprise to anyone who has witnessed the changes that have occurred in the RCC over the past 25 or so years. Its just one more innovation good or bad.  This is not to say that what the Pope has authorized is inappropriate, its just different.  I can only speak for myself in saying that if all the century old innovations evaportated tomorrow I would still remain in the one true faith. Cool

JoeS2

<<I have noticed, where I am, in the Orthodox church I attend a harbouring "anti" sentiment against the religion the people previously came from. Is this so throughout the rest of Orthodoxy? Or is it something just local to my parish.>>


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« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2002, 12:32:58 PM »



I am also in the process of becoming Orthodox.

However I am not doing it because I am 'disgusted' with the Roman Catholic church. Nor am I doing it because I have a personal vendetta against it or anyone in that particular church.

No I am doing it out of my ardent desire to fufill my catholicity, and grow spiritually, while at the same time taking the message of Christ to whereever i go, be it work or school.

If you are going to convet to Orthodoxy because you are disgusted with anything, you really need to reconsider!!! Not only are you putting yourself in danger, but you are making Orthodoxy look bad.




     Well, put, Bobby.  I would refer anyone considering Orthodoxy to consider the article by Father John Garvey of the OCA "A Typology of Converts: Beware of Those Who are Running Away"


http://www.oca.org/pages/ocaadmin/dioceses/NY/Jacobs-Well/Articles/1996-FALL-Garvey.html



          Good food for thought!

                        Peace,
                          Brian
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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2002, 01:01:21 PM »



I am also in the process of becoming Orthodox.

However I am not doing it because I am 'disgusted' with the Roman Catholic church. Nor am I doing it because I have a personal vendetta against it or anyone in that particular church.

No I am doing it out of my ardent desire to fufill my catholicity, and grow spiritually, while at the same time taking the message of Christ to whereever i go, be it work or school.

If you are going to convet to Orthodoxy because you are disgusted with anything, you really need to reconsider!!! Not only are you putting yourself in danger, but you are making Orthodoxy look bad.




     Well, put, Bobby.  I would refer anyone considering Orthodoxy to consider the article by Father John Garvey of the OCA "A Typology of Converts: Beware of Those Who are Running Away"


http://www.oca.org/pages/ocaadmin/dioceses/NY/Jacobs-Well/Articles/1996-FALL-Garvey.html



          Good food for thought!

                        Peace,
                          Brian

Brian, that article by Father John Garvey was excellent.

As for those who hold ordained ministerial positions in denominations other than either Roman/Eastern Catholicism or Eastern/Oriental Orthodoxy who are frustrated by whether one should choose Roman/Eastern Catholicism or Orthodoxy: the ease by which one may be potentially "priested" in one or the other should *not* be the determining factor of one's choice in these matters, IMHO.  One must ultimately be convinced as to which is the One True Church.  That, and that only, should be the guiding force under the Holy Spirit in the end.  One should not choose a Church because of possible ease of potential ordination!  That diminishes respect for the Faith of that Church, whether it be Roman/Eastern Catholic or Eastern/Oriental Orthodox.

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« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2002, 01:10:20 PM »

Sorry, the last part of my reply really belongs under the thread "Convert Issues," I suppose.

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« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2002, 03:11:29 PM »

Hypo-Ortho:


Triple Amen! to your post.

And this coming from a Roman Catholic!


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« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2002, 03:46:05 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

I have to say I concur wholeheartedly.

If one's heart is somewhere else than the place the person is, they never really reach their full potential.

Hope that makes some sense.

Bobby
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« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2002, 05:04:06 PM »

Hypo-Ortho,

I have to say I concur wholeheartedly.

If one's heart is somewhere else than the place the person is, they never really reach their full potential.

Hope that makes some sense.

Bobby

Bobby, what's with that pic accompanying your last post?  I'm not sure that St. Vladimir's Seminary would welcome a "Transexual Transvestite from Transylvania" ("Rocky Horror")!   Wink  But then, waddo I know?

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« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2002, 06:23:55 PM »

Joe,

Quote
On the SSPX.  They are a route you should never, never take.  I have nothing but sympathy for these people, but they are doing something that is diametrically opposed to the nature of the Church.  The Church is supposed to engage and convert the culture, not try to live as if the past 50 years have never happened. The Church should hold fast to their traditions and try to convert the culture.

I have a lot of sympathy for them too, since I used to be one of them! Smiley

The only reason I would say why one should not "become" involved with the SSPX, is only because I would never recommend someone become involved with anything save Orthodox Christianity.

From my experience (and visiting several SSPX chapels across N.America, including the SSPX seminary in Minnesota, and the SSPX church in St.Mary's KS, which hosts a growing population of RC traditionalists), there is some merit to the charge of "living in the past."  That's hard to avoid, since some people (in viewing the current mess in the RCC as something that began in 1965 with the close of Vatican II) are going to view things in terms of "post '65 bad, pre '65 good" (thus creating a problem known in traditionalist RC circles as "fifties-ism".)

To be fair to the SSPX clergy, on the whole they speak out against this (and it's not present everywhere in the SSPX flock).  For example, the firebrand (who I still respect for his courage to entertain iconoclastic views, and criticize the sacred cows of modern American culture) rector of the seminary in Minnesota, Bp. Richard Williamson, is extremely critical of the "living in the past" mentality (and in fact may have coined the phrase, "fifties-ism").

Honestly, I think the folks in the SSPX are in a bad way.  Their ultimate crime, for which I think they have next to no culpability, is believing the bogus claims of Rome about itself, and the heretical innovations introduced to the RCC because of this (and it's estrangement from the Orthodox Church.)  It's a hard position these folks are in...

- on one hand, it's painfully obvious to anyone with a shred of sincerity and honesty, that the RCC is a different entity than it was pre-Vatican II (though the seeds for this ideological change at least go back to underground sub currents that date into the late 19th century).  It's been a profound change not only in praxis (which cannot but affect faith), but in faith and mindset.  Not everything in the pre-Vat mindset was good obviously (we Orthodox know that very well), but they were certainly closer to some kind of small 'o' "Orthodoxy" than they are now, particularly on the parish level (that is to say, not speaking about the affairs and politics of the Vatican or the heirarchy, but the goings on of simple parish priests, and in particular, the laity.)

- on the other hand, these folks still consider themselves to be Roman Catholics, and thus cannot but pay at least lip service to the alleged infallibility of the Popes and the supposed absolute need to remain in communion with him.  I am convinced that had John Paul II espoused the ideas he does now during the reign of someone like Pius X, or even perhaps Pius XII, he'd at least have been silenced, if not put on trial (as an Orthodox Christian I don't find his ideas incredibly obnoxious, but from the p.o.v. of what the RCC believed only a century ago about itself, he would not have been in anyone's good books).  Yet now JP II is a "conservative" compared to much of the RC heirarchy.  It is only by the most strained mental gymnastics that these people can claim to be in "communion" with either the Pope or his more loyal followers.

However, I'm not to harsh on these folks as they're about the only real Roman Catholics left (in the sense of their Catholicism being something other than simply "whatever the Pope says").

I don't think any Orthodox Christian would say that the demolition of the Roman Catholic Church's liturgy, sacred architecture, music, etc., was a "good thing".  These folks deserve our prayers and pity, since they've been doubly betrayed (if we view ordinary Roman Catholics as being "singly betrayed".)

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« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2002, 06:55:12 PM »

Most interesting, Seraphim. How long were you in it?

Interesting that fifties-ism is such an issue that the SSPX itself has to speak against it.

Part of the appeal of the Orthodox tradition IMO is it offers a dynamic 'traditionalism', with that 'trademark' mystical bent, that offers a way out both from dead ends like fifties-ism and today's mess, to which fifties-ism is an understandable reaction.

A tradition even older and more 'archaic' than 1950s American Roman Catholic ways, yet able to survive and thrive in the 21st century - witness the mini-windfall of conversions.
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« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2002, 07:33:21 PM »

Serge,

Quote
Most interesting, Seraphim. How long were you in it?

I was involved with the SSPX for about four years.

Quote
Interesting that fifties-ism is such an issue that the SSPX itself has to speak against it.

It seems to be a problem in the USA more than anywhere else (at least in my experience and from what I gathered from others.)  I spent some time at St.Mary's Academy & College a few years back, and saw some of this unfortunate phenomena first hand.  The biggest problem (from the trad Catholic p.o.v.) with "fifties-ism" is that it misunderstands what the cultural criticism of the SSPX and RC traditionalism is actually about (as if somehow one is somehow an anti-christ for listening to contemporary rock music, but listening to passionate new-country, or "oldies" is somehow innocuous and innocent).  The SSPX actually entertains some very interesting (and for many, quite controversial) ideas about what society should be like.  Basically, think Pope Pius IX's social ideas, and you get the picture.

Quote
Part of the appeal of the Orthodox tradition IMO is it offers a dynamic 'traditionalism', with that 'trademark' mystical bent, that offers a way out both from dead ends like fifties-ism and today's mess, to which fifties-ism is an understandable reaction.

It really is a dead end, because it's a sign of phariseeism, which indeed is a problem in some quarters of the SSPX (more amongst the laity, believe it or not, than the clergy...at least in my experience.)  Whenever one gets just plain "arbitrary" and is operating more on an "antiquated fashion sense" than on principles of modesty or morality, you loose credibility (and relevance.)

Unfortunatly, this is not something that Orthodoxy is entirely free of; it's just that it manifests itself in the form of nationalism.  I think most converts have had at least one experience of "why you here?  you no greek" (or insert other ethnicity).  Fortunately, I think it is something which the sheer force of numbers (and of course the Spirit of God) will demolish within my lifetime.

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« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2002, 07:44:58 PM »

Thanks, Seraphim.

You know, some accuse zealous converts in places like ROCOR and even the Antiochian Archdiocese and OCA of something like an Orthodox version of fifties-ism, only this pharisaism allegedly patterns itself after another era and country, after some idealized cultural Orthodox externals, such as those of 19th-century Russia, with similar strictures against flattering modern fashions (even outside of church) and music. To quote one disillusioned convert now an Episcopalian (! - talk about burnout), 'what are we, Amish?'

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for long skirts and headscarves on the women during services w/o getting fanatical about it, and for healthy modesty otherwise. And of course I'm 100% for the externals for clergy - beards, crosses, riassas in public, the whole thing.
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« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2002, 08:00:48 PM »

Serge,

Quote
You know, some accuse zealous converts in places like ROCOR and even the Antiochian Archdiocese and OCA of something like an Orthodox version of fifties-ism, only this pharisaism allegedly patterns itself after some idealized cultural Orthodox externals, such as 19th-century Russia, with similar strictures against flattering modern fashions (even outside of church) and music. To quote one disillusioned convert now an Episcopalian (! - talk about burnout), 'what are we, Amish?'

Well, I think it's a sign of the times we're in, and the growing pains that indigenous, North American Orthodoxy is going through.  What you have are lots of extremes, with little balance (for ex. you get latin-wanna-be priests on one hand, on the other you get people who are horrified even if their married, parish priest just trims his beard for hygenic purposes)

I think there is much to be lamented about in the departure (in some parts of the Orthodox Church in the west) from traditional norms regarding clerical appearance.   I also think pews are just a rotten idea for Churches (since they don't go with the liturgy and inhibit movement), and the same can be said for most of the peculiarities which have been adopted in the diaspora (and in large part, done simply to "fit in.")

I know ROCOR is big (or at least historically was big) on the ressurection of Tsarist Russia.  Personally, this is not a big priority for me (a western convert whose heritage is hispanic/celtic), but I must confess that my pet politics do swerve in this direction (I don't consider "democracy" as we know it to be an unquestionable good, though in the current world situation it does seem to be the best game going.)  In the end, ROCOR is where I belong simply because I agree with their stance regarding modernism, ecumenism, and the integrity of the services (and of course the purity of the teaching found in the parishes.)

Quote
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for long skirts and headscarves on the women during services w/o getting fanatical about it, and about healthy modesty otherwise. And of course I'm 100% for the externals for clergy - beards, crosses, riassas in public, the whole thing.

Of course.  I think it's only a few nut jobs (who are at least as imbalanced and severe, in their own liberal way, as their "fanatical" opponents) who want to see Orthodox Christianity become "main line protestantism with an iconostasis".  And those folks are so superifical and irrelevent that their views won't last beyond their natural demise.  Though some people are pessimistic about the state of things in the Orthodox world, I'm actually quite optimistic - I think the "turn around" has already, if just a bit, begun.

Seraphim
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« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2002, 12:18:40 AM »

If you don't like the new mysteries of the Rosary, just "refuse to participate".  Pray using the 15 mysteries you've known since you could hold a rosary.

You could also pray the Akathist to the Most Holy Theotokos instead...
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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2002, 03:07:47 AM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Furthermore, if one prays the Rosary daily, and there are seven days in the week, then 450 Hail Mary's are said, not 300 (two Psalters).

Dear Mor,

     Umm, I know math isn't your string suit, but 450 is still divisible by 150. Its 3x150. God Bless!

What I meant was that if one prays the standard five decades a day, one gets through all fifteen in three days.  Seven days in the week means getting through fifteen decades twice, with one day left over.  Either way, one mystery would get repeated thrice, while the others only twice.  The "new mysteries" eliminate that issue.  

As far as the Psalter goes, if one holds that the 150 Aves of the full fifteen decade Rosary are meant to represent the Psalter in some way, then the same thing applies here.  Assuming someone prays the standard five decades, the "Psalter" is gotten through twice in one week, with an extra set.  This makes it "two Psalters and change".  So, unless one did not recite the Rosary one day, one would always be reciting more than two "Psalters" but less than three.  It doesn't matter that 450 is divisible by 150.  Furthermore, we're not talking about an extra set of fifteen mysteries, but only five more.  150 Aves twice (300) plus five more mysteries (50) is 350, which, if my math skills are OK, is not divisible by 150.  A Psalter and change.  

Please forgive me if this has confused or bored you, or even if I got any of this wrong.  It's late, the University network is suffering from a series of strokes, and I'm at another computer at three in the morning.  Smiley
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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2002, 07:35:54 AM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!
What I meant was that if one prays the standard five decades a day, one gets through all fifteen in three days.  Seven days in the week means getting through fifteen decades twice, with one day left over.  Either way, one mystery would get repeated thrice, while the others only twice.  The "new mysteries" eliminate that issue.

Yeah, now 3 sets of myseteries now get done twice a week, and the new ones only once a week. Wait, the new mysteries don't eliminate that issue at all! Wink You rule at math, Mor! :p

Actually the whole only doing one mystery a day is a new thing, it used to be that everyone did the full 15 mysteries at least once, and many 10 times a day. God Bless!
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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2002, 03:53:03 PM »

I for one still say 15 decades a day.   Most people who have a true devotion to Mary in the RC that I know still say 15 decades a day (at least once). I even know one aged priest who will say over a dozen full 15 Decade Rosaries a day in addition to daily Mass and his breviary.  He is the only RC I know who has attained to the ideal of prayer without ceasing.  He even says the Rosary in his sleep!

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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2002, 04:32:09 PM »

The Rosary is wonderful, Joe. If you're that attached to it, I suggest you stay put ecclesiastically.
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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2002, 04:34:06 PM »

perhaps you are right Serge.  The Rosary is one thing I would NEVER give up.

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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2002, 10:44:36 PM »

Yeah, now 3 sets of myseteries now get done twice a week, and the new ones only once a week. Wait, the new mysteries don't eliminate that issue at all! Wink You rule at math, Mor! :p

Actually the whole only doing one mystery a day is a new thing, it used to be that everyone did the full 15 mysteries at least once, and many 10 times a day. God Bless!

Either I am not saying this right, or you are so Orthodox you forgot how to be a Catholic.   Tongue
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« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2002, 07:49:07 AM »

OK folks - it seems that I have an enormous amount on which to catch up -- this seems to have escaped me totally - but in fairness all I have seen over the last 4 weeks is French TV.

Now please would some of you Orthodox Christians explain to this puzzled Latin how we are to fit in these new Mysteries ?

Traditionally on Mondays and Thursdays we pray the Joyful Mysteries
On Tuesdays and Fridays we pray the Sorrowful Mysteries
On Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sundays we pray the Glorious Mysteries

This does of course assume we do not say all 15 Decades each day - some of us try - but don't always succeed !

Now where in this traditional Scheme are we to put the new Set ?
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« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2002, 08:05:10 AM »

the slave,

The answer to that question is here: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html
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« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2002, 09:29:42 AM »

Serge,

Thank you .Though it will be a few days before I can read and digest.
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« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2002, 10:06:39 AM »

Yeah, now 3 sets of myseteries now get done twice a week, and the new ones only once a week. Wait, the new mysteries don't eliminate that issue at all! Wink You rule at math, Mor! :p

Actually the whole only doing one mystery a day is a new thing, it used to be that everyone did the full 15 mysteries at least once, and many 10 times a day. God Bless!

Again, my point was that, working with the standard three groups of mysteries, each of them gets said twice a week, but one of them necessarily gets said thrice.  If you add the new mysteries, each of the originals gets done twice and twice only.  

Now my math may be bad, but your reading and writing (two nows?) suck.   Tongue Tongue

I am not sure what your last remark means.  Do you mean that many people used to pray all fifteen decades ten times a day, or at least once?
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