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Author Topic: WR Divina Officium  (Read 5380 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 16, 2006, 09:16:46 PM »

A couple of threads dealing with the Orthodox Western rite sparked a few questions for me...

What divine office / liturgy of the hours is the most commonly used among the Orthodox WR?  Personally I much prefer for the Western office as it is at least possible for laymen to pray part or nearly all of it as it is almost entirely the psalter.  The Byzantine office, while beautiful is rarely ever seen outside of a monastery. 
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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2006, 09:35:24 PM »

I would think it would be the Morning & Evening Prayer found in the Book of Common Prayer; that gets you through the psalter in one month, but you could just do it in one week using the kathisma (sp?) division.

On a related note: is it alright for an Orthodox to use a Catholic breviary, such as the Latin Secular Breviary (Breviarium Romanum) or the Liturgy of the Hours?
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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2006, 10:19:12 PM »

St. Peter's in Ft. Worth prays the English office...like you said, almost entirely from the psalter.

I'm not sure about the breviary issue, not actually being WR myself (just a WR booster in the OCA!  Wink)...you might want to check to see what WR parishes are actually doing.  I do know that they follow a separate lectionary and Ordo from both Anglicans AND Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2006, 11:24:15 PM »

A little correction on the title of this thread:
Either:
"Divinum officium"
or:
"Divina officia".
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2006, 08:22:12 PM »

On a related note: is it alright for an Orthodox to use a Catholic breviary, such as the Latin Secular Breviary (Breviarium Romanum) or the Liturgy of the Hours?
Why not?  Outside of the commemoration of post-schism saints, certain questionable holy days (e.g. Immaculate Conception - Orthodox celebrate the Conception of St Anne on December 9), and prayers for the Pope, all of which can certainly be skipped over, it contains nothing more than psalms, responsorial verses, canticles, biblical and non-biblical (the Fathers) readings, and intercessory prayers.  I am born Orthodox and have the 4 volume set of the Liturgy of the Hours.  I don't pray the hours according to the breviary, since it is not my tradition, but I do read the 1st and 2nd readings from the Office of Readings most every day.
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2006, 12:42:54 PM »

This really has no relevance to the issue of the Divine Office, but since we're talking about the WR, I thought I'd pass on some good news.  In Houston, there is a group of 20+ former Episcopalians and their priest who are in the process of converting to Orthodoxy under the Antiochian Archdiocese.  They are supposed to be chrismated in November, and their priest will be vested in the Orthodox tradition.  From there, they will start a WR mission in Houston.  Please keep them in your prayers...being only familiar with the Byzantine liturgical tradition, I've always been curious as to the experience of attending a WR liturgy, and I believe I may get the chance to do that soon! 

Forgive me for posting a irrelevant issue, but I was excited to share it.

In the Risen Christ,

Michael
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2006, 01:13:43 PM »

Don't take my word on this, but I know some people from the Sarum Rite would use basically the version of the old Catholic Divine Office (they got it off of SSPX's Angelus site).  I don't know if this is universal practice, but it is easy to use and beautiful.  Dicesne Latinam? Wink
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2006, 03:32:56 PM »

Quote
This really has no relevance to the issue of the Divine Office, but since we're talking about the WR, I thought I'd pass on some good news.  In Houston, there is a group of 20+ former Episcopalians and their priest who are in the process of converting to Orthodoxy under the Antiochian Archdiocese.  They are supposed to be chrismated in November, and their priest will be vested in the Orthodox tradition.  From there, they will start a WR mission in Houston.

Yep! I'm going to be attending it as my regular parish, as well. I've been waiting years for a WR church around these parts.
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2006, 05:31:21 PM »

Quote
Dicesne Latinam?

You bring up an interesting question... is there any evidence that were vernacular liturgical rites in the West before Vatican II (except among Protestants and Anglicans)?  So do the WR Orthodox retain Latin, if not, why not?

Thanks for the info btw (or should I say...gratias tibi ago)
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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2006, 06:25:57 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9064.msg121918#msg121918 date=1148419881]
You bring up an interesting question... is there any evidence that were vernacular liturgical rites in the West before Vatican II (except among Protestants and Anglicans)?ÂÂ  So do the WR Orthodox retain Latin, if not, why not?

Thanks for the info btw (or should I say...gratias tibi ago)
[/quote]

Christus Resurrexit!
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2006, 06:32:53 PM »

Quote
Christus Resurrexit!

Veritate resurrexit.   
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2006, 06:55:07 PM »

Quote
is there any evidence that were vernacular liturgical rites in the West before Vatican II (except among Protestants and Anglicans)?

The Latin Catholics of Croatia until this century served the mass in Old Church Slavonic. Admittedly, it's no longer a vernacular language, but at the time permission was given to use it, it was.
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2006, 07:33:38 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9064.msg121920#msg121920 date=1148423573]
Veritate resurrexit.  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
[/quote]

Christus resurrexit de mort tu is, mort te mort te cal ca vit.  Et ti bus in selpuchre, vi tam do na vit.

(from memory of the Latin Gregorian Tone 1 XB we learned Grin.  Our choir director arranged it from an Alleluia.)
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2006, 10:11:12 AM »

The Western Rite Orthodox use a variety of texts for the Divine Office. For the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate, priests are required by the Ordo to follow either the Monastic Diurnal/Breviarium Monasticum (the Benedictine hours), or the English Office as printed by St. Luke's Priory Press (essentially the same offices found in the St. Dunstan's Psalter - Mattins or Morning Prayer (which combines the old Sarum Mattins, Lauds, and Prime material), and Evensong (combining Vespers and Compline) or Vespers and Compline. The Anglican Breviary (the secular Roman office) is also in use, with corrections - being the same offices used by the Antiochian Western Rite in New Zealand.

In ROCOR Western Rite, there are a few options as well. The Monastic Diurnal/Breviarium Monasticum is in use by Christ the Savior monastery and its Oblates. Saint Petroc monastery and its attached parishes and missions use a corrected form of the Clewer "Day Hours" (the Sarum office in English for monastic/parish use rather than cathedral use). There are also a couple of parishes of Gallican and Roman rite of ROCOR in South America - no clue what they use for the hours (I've been trying to find the office books for the Gallican use for quite some time.)
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2006, 01:51:26 PM »

yBeayf:

I assume you live in Houston, then?  Where do you attend church currently?  I go to St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church.

When the WR mission gets established, I hope to attend from time to time...looking forward to it.

In Christ,

Michael
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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2006, 05:28:09 PM »

Quote
I assume you live in Houston, then?  Where do you attend church currently?  I go to St. George Antiochian Orthodox Church.

I attended St. Jonah's for a few years, but for almost a year I've been attending St. Joseph's, as it's much closer to where I live.
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2006, 06:34:09 PM »

Aristibule,

Can the monastic diurnal (I assume you mean this one: http://www.andrewespress.com/md.html or is there another?) be entirely used by Orthodox?  With other texts it is easy enough to ignore post-schism saints, but often a refrence to dual procession (filioque) is here and there or some other non-Orthodox doctrine.  Basicly I'd like to find a nice Western Rite breviary that is easily used in Orthodox usage without an undue amount of adaptations.

Thanks!
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2006, 06:54:12 PM »

A related question...

Are there any plans for Lancelot Andrewes Press to publish the monastic matins as well?
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« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2006, 08:49:19 PM »

Quote
Are there any plans for Lancelot Andrewes Press to publish the monastic matins as well?

I don't know, but Baronius Press is going to do a full reprint of the English/Latin Breviary put out by the OSB in 1963. Angelus Press (of the SSPX fame) is rumoured to have a full Breviary in the works as well.

http://www.baroniuspress.com/forthcoming_books.htm

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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2006, 10:23:18 PM »

Re: the Monastic Diurnal - the changes necessary are a known quantity, easily fixed. For those who are WRO, not too difficult - one's priest or superior can help with regards to what one needs to change. (Though, I'd wonder why anyone would be following the Monastic hours unless they were actually a monk or taking Oblate vows?)

One of the principals of Lancelot Andrewes press has indeed expressed a desire to reprint the Matins text of the same - the difficulty has been with finding a clean copy - difficult for such a rare volume that is often marked up.
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« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2006, 10:59:52 PM »

Quote
Though, I'd wonder why anyone would be following the Monastic hours unless they were actually a monk or taking Oblate vows?

It's now (along with the AB) one of the only all-English good-quality translations of a traditional breviary.
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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2006, 07:47:33 AM »

That isn't quite an answer to that question though (that answer would be more appropriate with 'why use the MD for WRO', which in that case is true - except some WRO do not consider the 1963 a good translation, hence LAP's publication of the Canon Douglas MD is a great boon) - the point is: why should a non-monastic try to adopt monastic customs? Dom James directs his Oblates not to pray the full breviary, that is only for the professed. Fr. Michael warns against the same for whether AB, MD, or other is used by layfolk: only monastics and clergy are bound to recite the full Office, and there are many dangers of excess in laymen trying to take on so much. It should be pointed out then that the use of any Breviary then should still be *with direction* as to its use.  Which is why I would stress what our clergy say: experience of the Western Rite is more important than speculation on its theory. And also (as Fr. Michael likes to quote St. David of Wales, 'mind the little things') to do what is appropriate to one's calling - too much breviary at one can lead to a pattern of failure in prayer, a sort of roller coaster of manic trying to keep up with a breviary, and intermittent periods of doing nothing.
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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2006, 01:33:49 PM »

Quote
why should a non-monastic try to adopt monastic customs?

In my case, I came into Orthodoxy from a Roman Catholic background, where praying the office (even just a part of it) was encouraged.  I miss having a more structured and liturgical life.  I also think the Western Divine Office is one of the better ways to pray with the psalter - even doing Lauds and Vespers will give one a good sampling of the Psalter and Old Testament canticles.  All of course, with the blessing of one's spiritual father. 
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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2006, 02:50:03 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9064.msg122078#msg122078 date=1148578429]
I also think the Western Divine Office is one of the better ways to pray with the psalter - even doing Lauds and Vespers will give one a good sampling of the Psalter and Old Testament canticles.ÂÂ  All of course, with the blessing of one's spiritual father.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

How is that different from praying the various kathismata from the Psalter during Vespers? (I mean, I know it's different, but it seems both Eastern and Western forms of monastic worship include a lot of OT).
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« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2006, 03:24:33 PM »

Aristibule,

I dunno. Take what St. Ambrose has to say, "For if so great a Saint as David, a man occupied by the business of a kingdom, praised God seven times a day, and never missed the morning and evening scrifices, what out we to do?" (Liber 7 in Lucae cap. 11).
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« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2006, 03:26:57 PM »

Quote
How is that different from praying the various kathismata from the Psalter during Vespers? (I mean, I know it's different, but it seems both Eastern and Western forms of monastic worship include a lot of OT).

In traditional practice (the current RC usage is a little shorter) there are 5 psalms for vespers, a short new testament reaeding and the Magnificat (i.e the ninth ode of the Orthros canon).  Lauds has 4 psalms, an OT canticle, short new testament reading and the Benedictus (Canticle of Zacharias).  Personally speaking I like the completeness and structure of the Western office (i.e the opening vereses, a closing etc) more than sitting down and reading the kathisma(ta) for the morning/evening.  In the Western office, the psalms and canticles ARE the office, whereas in the Byzantine rite it feels like the kathismata are mere adjunct (which is evidenced by the fact that most parishes skip them entirely, even in monasteries they are often blown through at light speed).  There is also the factor of simplicity: outside of a monastery it is not practical to even do daily vespers/orthros in their fullness (according to Byzantine usage).  Whereas, it is entirely possible (with a single book!) to do Lauds/Vespers for everyday of the year for an individual or parish.   ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚  
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« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2006, 03:33:56 PM »

Quote
I dunno. Take what St. Ambrose has to say, "For if so great a Saint as David, a man occupied by the business of a kingdom, praised God seven times a day, and never missed the morning and evening scrifices, what out we to do?" (Liber 7 in Lucae cap. 11).

I know a good number of lay Roman Catholics that pray the Vatican II liturgy of the hours everyday.  Granted it is shorter than the older versions of the office, but a commendable practice nevertheless.  While its in vouge to be highly critical of Vatican II, I think that bring the office to the laity has been a very good thing.   
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« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2006, 03:54:44 PM »

Quote
Whereas, it is entirely possible (with a single book!) to do Lauds/Vespers for everyday of the year for an individual or parish.       

Exactly! The same can be said for Compline, which is likely the simplest office as it is unchanging except for the Psalms (which only differ according to the day of the week.) Lauds is a little better for layfolk than Mattins, which can be far more complicated (Dom James has told me before that it is unnecessary for those not in Chapter - layfolk or even oblates are not bound to Mattins, which properly is done before most laymen awake in the morning.) The fact is that even before the schism there was already the practice (even in the Isles) of combining the offices - not just doing them back to back, for parishes/layfolk. That is the origin of Morgensong and Evensong (I forget the name of the RCC scholar who investigated the origin of those two offices in the Anglo-Saxon period). The two seem to bookmark the day, and with Compline to prepare before bed (and possibly Midday prayer,) it is quite a full prayer life for an Orthodox. One can always build from there (Litanies, like Akathists, abound ... and much else.) And of course, prayers at table.

I'm guessing that might be why a separate Morning Prayer/Evening Prayer never developed in the West like one has in the Byzantine tradition. The Byzantine morning/evening prayers are daily, not the same as attending Orthos and Matins - which the great majority of Orthodox Christians don't have daily access to unless they live at a monastery or cathedral. However, much that is in the Byzantine morning/evening prayers is like the material in the Western Offices for marking the beginning of the day or its ending - prayers against sin while awake or sleeping, for protection, etc.)
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« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2006, 02:12:57 PM »

I have a few different RC breviary's both pre/post VII in english...as long as one is truly sincere and prays in the spirit I really don't think the merciful Lord will reject them...

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