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Author Topic: Orthodox objections to the Sacred Heart Devotion  (Read 16226 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bl. Leonid Feodorov
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« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2007, 10:05:44 PM »

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There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.
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« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2007, 10:11:53 PM »

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It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.

I have never seens a Byzantinized rendition of the Sacred Heart.  Each time that I have seen the Sacred Heart in an Orthodox Church it was been the standard Latin depiction. 

A few devotional crossovers from the border regions of the Theodosian line hardly constitute an established and legitimate Orthodox custom. 
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« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2007, 10:11:53 PM »

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There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.

Fwiw, I have an icon which is, I believe, a sacred heart style icon. A priest was doing a blessing in our house a couple years ago and looked at this icon, and I asked him about it. He was a former teacher at Jordanville if I remember correctly, and he said that while it was uncommon, there was nothing unorthodox about it. Perhaps it is like a holy trinity style icon, where there are specific traditions and even canons against it, but it still is accepted by some anyway?
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« Reply #93 on: January 12, 2007, 10:29:45 PM »

You could even find "The Sacred Heart of Mary" Wink
See the left corner of the altar.
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« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2007, 10:32:39 PM »

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.
Well, no. I think you'll find that no Orthodox Iconographer has depicted what they deem to be a "legitimate" Icon of the Sacred Heart. I think you'll find that the Romanian Church  et al are using non-Orthodox art as Icons (see photo posted by augustin717).
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« Reply #95 on: January 12, 2007, 10:36:07 PM »

Here is a Sacred Heart icon in a sort of Orthodox style:

http://www.monasteryicons.com/monasteryicons/Item_Sacred-Heart_548_ps_srm.html

I think this monastery is Byzantine Catholic.  As  I said in my reply early on in this thread, such icons are not allowed at my church.  I have heard them accused of being Nestorian, although I am not too sure how that works out.
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« Reply #96 on: January 12, 2007, 10:36:22 PM »

And there are a number of other uncanonical things in the photo posted by augustine717. There should be no flowers on the altar. According to the Canons, the only things which can be offered on the altar are bread, wine, water, incense, grapes and wheat.
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« Reply #97 on: January 12, 2007, 10:40:22 PM »

I don't think that those flowers are meant to be offered in any way.
Canonical, uncanonical that's the way we are: the Austro-Hungarian legacy.
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« Reply #98 on: January 13, 2007, 10:11:10 PM »

We would even do "The Way of the Cross" back home, on certain occasions (e.g. Good Friday):
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_29.04.2005_03.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_21.04.2006_04.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_25.04.2003_09.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_25.04.2003_10.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_14.08.2006_07.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_21.04.2006_08.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_09.04.2004_05.jpg
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« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2007, 11:37:39 PM »

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.

I've seen Orthodox churches around Cluj where the iconostasis has one or two of those gimmicky pictures that change depending on the angle one views them from: look it's the Virgin Mary praying and if I just walk over here it's her being crowned in heaven. The tacky decorations of Transylvanian churches should not be seen as the standard of Orthodox iconographical practise.
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« Reply #100 on: January 14, 2007, 02:18:09 AM »

I've seen a couple of those tacky and also plain western religious art in russian churches hanging on walls unassumingly. Also, I've noticed that the Coptic churches I've visited had tons of these western art pieces including the Sacred Hearts and rosaries being sold in bookstores. Whenever I've asked, it seemd that they'd rather have western art than sell or even display byzantine art for some reason...
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« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2007, 02:51:34 PM »

Historically, Orthodox Churches have at times had to resort to the use of Western Art due to the  absence of access to Orthodox Icons.  There are also Western Devotion pictures that have been adjusted to Icon format  by the Roman Catholic Church for use in their eastern Rites. Of interest the Sacred Heart image on the altar seems to have a clock on the paintings left side ( rights side as you look at it),

As for an Iconic painting, I remember seeing one such  painted at the request of Pope John Paul II, It is a version of the Image of the Divine Mercy. [For those of you who do not know the story of the Divine Mercy Image, it was a private revelation by Saint Mary Faustina Kowalska in which she states that "the Lord Jesus clothed in a white garment. One hand was raised in blessing, the other was touching the garment at the breast. From the opening of the garment at the breast there came forth two large rays, one red and the other pale. In silence I gazed intently at the Lord; my soul was overwhelmed with fear, but also with great joy. After a while Jesus said to me, 'paint an image according to the pattern you see, with the inscription: Jesus, I trust in You.'] The icon of this is a icon of a standing Lord Jesus clothed in a white garment. One hand was raised in blessing, the other was touching the garment at the breast with two rays coming from his breast one red and the other white. Its inscription in Greek says "Jesus, I trust in You.'"

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« Reply #102 on: November 27, 2007, 10:06:55 AM »

BTTT
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« Reply #103 on: November 27, 2007, 11:43:29 AM »

Here is a Sacred Heart icon in a sort of Orthodox style:

http://www.monasteryicons.com/monasteryicons/Item_Sacred-Heart_548_ps_srm.html

I think this monastery is Byzantine Catholic.  As  I said in my reply early on in this thread, such icons are not allowed at my church.  I have heard them accused of being Nestorian, although I am not too sure how that works out.

Monastery Icons is not Byzantine Catholic (Novus Ordo perhaps, but not Byz. Cath.  Wink )  Although not news to some, you should be aware that Monastery Icons are themselves owned and operated by a Hindu Ashram.

To bring together the known information on Monastery Icons I present the following:

1) An Orthodox commentary on the history/origins of Monastery Icons http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/monasteryicons.aspx

2) Due to the negative publicity generated by the above commentary, Monastery Icons has sought to evade the bad press using a corporate slight of hand, this being their "acquisition" by the Sacred Arts Foundation - this is noted on Monastery Icons website http://www.monasteryicons.com/info/index.hzml

3) When questioned about their ties to the previous owners http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/lofiv...hp/t46309.html (quote from "thedude" towards the bottom of the webpage), they now attempt to disavow any connection:

Quote
Dear Friend,

Thank you for contacting us. About ten years ago competitors and enemies of Monastery Icons perpetrated the spurious information cited in Fr. Nelson¹s letter, in an attempt to compromise the business of Monastery Icons. Fortunately the sacred arts ministry of Monastery Icons was not harmed by this attempt, and most people recognize the letter for what it is: a bizarre conglomeration of lies, fantasy, and misinformation.

Further, Sacred Arts Foundation acquired the Monastery Icons sacred art collection three years ago. The Monastery no longer manufactures the icons nor does it own the Monastery Icons business. The icons from Monastery Icons are not blessed with any rituals, “occult” or otherwise. Thank you again for your interest. If you have any further questions or concerns please do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely
Richard

Monastery Icons
Customer Service
1-800-729-4952

Monasteryicons.com
 

4) When one digs further, one finds out that the Sacred Arts Foundation is incorporated in Missouri (thank you Irish Melkite for the following information) http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthr...page/0/fpart/2 :

Quote
2005 Annual Report - Sacred Arts Foundation - State of Missouri - Secretary of State's Office filing shows that the principal place of business is 1482 Rango Way, Borrego Springs, CA. The Foundation has only a registered agent in MO, which is a great place to incorporate, as the fees are dirt-cheap.

The officers include William Burke - the former Abbott of the infamous Gnostic Orthodox Monastery.

1482 Rango Way, Borrego Springs, CA, btw, is the locale of Atma Jyoti Ashram , "a spiritual institution devoted to the practice and teaching of Sanatana Dharma, the Eternal Religion, as found in the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali." This is Abbott Burke's latest religious venture.

It would appear that one corporate entity, as it was being phased out, sold its assets to the new corporate venture - essentially mirrors of one another in regard to governance, differing chiefly in ecclesiology. 

The links for the above information are: https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntit...ngs.asp?705141 and http://www.atmajyoti.org/ashram.asp

5) As Irish Melkite has pointed out - note that the addresses of both the Hindu Ashram and the Corporate Headquarters of the Sacred Arts Foundation, current owners of Monastery Icons are the SAME: 1482 Rango Way , Borrego Springs, CA 92004

http://www.atmajyoti.org/contact1.asp and http://www.sos.mo.gov/imaging/13302579.pdf

Misc.: It is interesting to note from the Missouri incorporation link ( http://www.sos.mo.gov/imaging/15868254.pdf ) that the Sacred Arts Foundation failed to file an annual report last year in Missouri and was therefore dissolved as a corporation in that state at the end of 2006 - I'm willing to bet they've incorporated elsewhere.
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« Reply #104 on: August 23, 2011, 11:06:56 PM »

I understand that there is an objection to the Sacred Heart devotion practiced by Catholics.

I would like to know what in particular are the objections.

Thank you.

Mother Anastasia,

Are you still with us here on the forum?
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« Reply #105 on: August 25, 2011, 03:51:55 PM »

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There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.

Yes, but you have to look at the history of that particular village in Transylvannia.  For example, was the church formerly a Romanian catholic Church and the picture is a left-over from that period?
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« Reply #106 on: August 25, 2011, 03:58:14 PM »

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There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.

Yes, but you have to look at the history of that particular village in Transylvannia.  For example, was the church formerly a Romanian catholic Church and the picture is a left-over from that period?
Although some Eastern Catholics may have objections to the Sacred Heart imagery, nevertheless, I did see a Sacred Heart Icon in a Romanian Eastern Catholic Church.
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« Reply #107 on: August 25, 2011, 06:02:10 PM »

I just checked the website of Monastery Icons, and it says they're located in Ohio, not California.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #108 on: August 25, 2011, 07:22:53 PM »

I just checked the website of Monastery Icons, and it says they're located in Ohio, not California.  Roll Eyes

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You talking about now, or four years ago, where Herekleides (where are u?) posted? And, at that time, according to Herekleides they acknowledged on their website their parent company, the Sacred Arts Foundation, which was what was located in CA.
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« Reply #109 on: August 25, 2011, 10:44:08 PM »

I just checked the website of Monastery Icons, and it says they're located in Ohio, not California.  Roll Eyes

Another urban legend of the Netodox shot down.  Tongue



You should have also checked the date on the message from which you took your information.  It was four years ago.   If you read the history of this group they pull up roots and move every now and then.

Another careless reader shot down Tongue
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« Reply #110 on: August 31, 2011, 01:42:38 PM »

Quote
There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.



Yes, but you have to look at the history of that particular village in Transylvannia.  For example, was the church formerly a Romanian catholic Church and the picture is a left-over from that period?
Although some Eastern Catholics may have objections to the Sacred Heart imagery, nevertheless, I did see a Sacred Heart Icon in a Romanian Eastern Catholic Church.

I am not surpirised, but no one has shown any proof of a Roman catholic picture of the Sacred heart in a church that is and always was an Orthodox Church. That is not a former Eastern Catholic Church that is now orthodox.
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« Reply #111 on: August 31, 2011, 02:15:42 PM »

we had a couple of sacred heart images in our church-not painted on wall, but lithographs- in a church that has never been greek-catholic; these were images donated by local people that were not aware that they weren't "orthodox". most icons we had back home, actually, in the houses of ordinary people-ours included- were cheap lithographs "made in italy".
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« Reply #112 on: August 31, 2011, 02:39:08 PM »

cheap lithographs "made in italy".
It's been that way since the 1800's, has it not?
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« Reply #113 on: August 31, 2011, 09:02:12 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit
You should have also checked the date on the message from which you took your information.  It was four years ago.   If you read the history of this group they pull up roots and move every now and then.

Another careless reader shot down Tongue

Not hardly. This is from their most recent catalog, which I got two days ago. Recent enough for you?:



Then again, I'm sure a post from years ago is more accurate.  Tongue

Yes, organizations and companies move sometimes. Just like, oh, Orthodox monasteries and churches have been known to do. That doesn't matter, I guess, because it's only bad if Roman Catholics do it.  Roll Eyes

If you don't like things from Monastery Icons, you'll have to come and remove them by hand from this church, which has plenty of them. I should know, I'm there every week.
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« Reply #114 on: August 31, 2011, 09:23:39 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit
You should have also checked the date on the message from which you took your information.  It was four years ago.   If you read the history of this group they pull up roots and move every now and then.

Another careless reader shot down Tongue

Not hardly. This is from their most recent catalog, which I got two days ago. Recent enough for you?:



Then again, I'm sure a post from years ago is more accurate.  Tongue

Yes, organizations and companies move sometimes. Just like, oh, Orthodox monasteries and churches have been known to do. That doesn't matter, I guess, because it's only bad if Roman Catholics do it.  Roll Eyes

If you don't like things from Monastery Icons, you'll have to come and remove them by hand from this church, which has plenty of them. I should know, I'm there every week.

Yes, they're in Ohio now, but the poster four years ago who posted that they were in California had no way of knowing that they would relocate. I don't see how anybody has been proved to be incorrect.
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« Reply #115 on: August 31, 2011, 09:25:42 PM »

Fair enough.
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« Reply #116 on: August 31, 2011, 09:29:57 PM »

If you don't like things from Monastery Icons, you'll have to come and remove them by hand from this church, which has plenty of them. I should know, I'm there every week.
What is the deal here? How can an Orthodox Church have these icons, if they are offensive to the Orthodox?
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« Reply #117 on: August 31, 2011, 09:31:47 PM »

My point was that they aren't necessarily offensive to all the Orthodox. Many of the icons sold by MI depict Orthodox saints. 
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« Reply #118 on: August 31, 2011, 09:35:19 PM »

My point was that they aren't necessarily offensive to all the Orthodox. Many of the icons sold by MI depict Orthodox saints. 
But sylistically, don't they have a slightly modern, slightly western taint to them, which would be out of place for those who demand a more traditional icon?
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« Reply #119 on: August 31, 2011, 09:37:08 PM »

Again, not necessarily. That's your opinion, and I can't quantify that.
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« Reply #120 on: August 31, 2011, 09:42:24 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit
You should have also checked the date on the message from which you took your information.  It was four years ago.   If you read the history of this group they pull up roots and move every now and then.

Another careless reader shot down Tongue

Not hardly. This is from their most recent catalog, which I got two days ago. Recent enough for you?:

No!  I got their catalogue just yesterday.  It came with one of the Celtic Home Shrines which I will be giving to my RC brother for his brthday.


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« Reply #121 on: September 19, 2011, 04:25:58 PM »

The outfit is Gnostic Orthodox and it is a creepy demonic group. So, Fr. Ambrose, if you love your brother you'll perform an exorcism over the "Celtic Home Shrine" before sending it on to your brother.

And even then, ... well, nuff said.
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« Reply #122 on: September 19, 2011, 04:31:23 PM »

An exorcism over...




?
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« Reply #123 on: September 19, 2011, 05:24:40 PM »

Absolutely. These are people who don't really believe in any one religion. They try to mix Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Hinduism, and other religions together into one. The enterprise is demonic and creepy, and their in-house-painted icons are just... wrong. Anyone can photocopy a real Orthodox icon, but to return to the original point--yes, exorcism required.
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