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Author Topic: Orthodox objections to the Sacred Heart Devotion  (Read 16151 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 15, 2006, 11:43:05 PM »

I understand that there is an objection to the Sacred Heart devotion practiced by Catholics.

I would like to know what in particular are the objections.

Thank you.
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2006, 11:53:49 PM »

I think a big part of it is the reparation theology which is behind the devotions to the Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart as well, the idea that we must make reparations for what we or others have done to offend Jesus.  Also, Orthodox don't like the idea of isolating a body part of Jesus and worshipping just that part, since it' s not a part of Tradition to do so. 
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2006, 11:55:24 PM »

Quote
Also, Orthodox don't like the idea of isolating a body part of Jesus and worshipping just that part, since it' s not a part of Tradition to do so.

Yes, I always felt it was strange. I really don't see how anyone can have devotion to a heart (not meant to be a swipe).
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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2006, 12:14:01 AM »

Also, Orthodox don't like the idea of isolating a body part of Jesus and worshipping just that part, since it' s not a part of Tradition to do so. 

Reparation  (this is something I will really have to think about, but here are some thoughts)

I know that when I am hurting and can just share the pain I'm feeling with another who really cares,  their love, understanding and just simply accompanying me is so very comforting.  This has been my understanding of reparation, a kind of accompanying Christ in the bitter rejection He has felt and continues to feel each day.  It is our sharing in the suffering of Jesus, that makes up for so many who do not care, and for all the times that we did not care.

Is this concept against Orthodox theology? 


The Sacred Heart as a Symbol

But it seems to me that the Sacred Heart is merely a symbol for the attribute of the Love of God.  When I was first drawn to Catholicism, my very first devotion was to the Sacred Heart, I have to confess, I never really connected with the reparation,  although I felt great sorrow for the ingratitude of man, (my own especially).  Meditation on this symbol is never apart from the Presence of Christ in His whole physical form, it is more of a concentration on the furnace of His love and compassion. 

It seems an oversimplification to say that Catholics worship His Heart, this concept is very foreign to me and I have a hard time visualizing it.  Just like the cross has become a symbol representing so many aspects of His sacrifice,  so do I see His Heart.

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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2006, 12:18:00 AM »

I've heard it accused of being "semi-nestorian."  The allegation is that the Sacred Heart represents the human love of Christ, as opposed to His divine love.  In other words, it separates His human love apart from His divine love.  Of course I may have heard wrong.  I'm not an expert.  I know my priest has told me not to carry any depiction of the Sacred Heart in our church's bookstore, which I run.
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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2006, 12:23:43 AM »

For me, these devotions (to the "Blessed Sacrament", to "The Sacred Heart of Jesus or Mary", the "First Fridays of the month" etc) are the weirdest part of the Catholic spirituality. I think I would feel more confortable with the extemporaneous prayers of the Protestants than with these Catholic practices.
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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2006, 12:25:15 AM »

  In other words, it separates His human love apart from His divine love. 

I've never heard this.  To me, the flames coming from within the Heart represent the Divine Furnace of His love.  But I will look it up on the Catholic Forum site and see what they say.  Thanks for your input.
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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2006, 12:29:47 AM »

For me, these devotions (to the "Blessed Sacrament", to "The Sacred Heart of Jesus or Mary", the "First Fridays of the month" etc) are the weirdest part of the Catholic spirituality. I think I would feel more confortable with the extemporaneous prayers of the Protestants than with these Catholic practices.

I understand your perspective.  But I don't think we should include the devotion to the Blessed Sacrament with the others, since this is the true Presence of Christ, and sitting with Him is different than reverencing an image of Him.   I would like to know what makes you uncomfortable with this particular devotion.

 Also, I didn't want to bring Theotokos, and Catholic devotions to her into this since that is a whole other topic.
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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2006, 12:44:05 AM »

Here are a couple of things I just found,  they confirm what my uneducated impression was on the devotion.  It seems like the Nestorian objection is addressed as well.

Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus has as its dogmatic foundation the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. On account of the hypostatic union*, every part of our Lord's Human Nature is worthy of adoration. Hence, therefore, we adore His bodily Heart, beating in His Bosom.

*Hypostatic Union
A theological term used with reference to the Incarnation to express the revealed truth that in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human.


 Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation. Hence it came to be used by the Greek philosophers to denote reality as distinguished from appearances (Aristotle, "Mund.", IV, 21). It occurs also in St. Paul's Epistles (2 Corinthians 9:4; 11:17; Hebrews 1:3-3:14), but not in the sense of person.

Previous to the Council of Nicæa (325) hypostasis was synonymous with ousia, and even St. Augustine (De Trin.,  avers that he sees no difference between them. The distinction in fact was brought about gradually in the course of the controversies to which the Christological heresies gave rise, and was definitively established by the Council of Chalcedon (451), which declared that in Christ the two natures, each retaining its own properties, are united in one subsistence and one person (eis en prosopon kai mian hpostasin) (Denzinger, ed. Bannwart, 148).

They are not joined in a moral or accidental union (Nestorius), nor commingled (Eutyches), and nevertheless they are substantially united. For further explanation and bibliography see: INCARNATION; JESUS CHRIST; MONOPHYSITISM; NATURE; PERSON.


We also honor the Heart of Jesus as a reminder, or symbol, of His love for us, and we are moved to make Him a return of love, because He has loved us and He is not loved by men.

Love, consecration, and reparation are the characteristic acts of this devotion. In this form it is now solemnly approved by the Church.

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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2006, 12:46:04 AM »

The Eucharist is meant to be consummed, in my oppinion, not to be adored outside the liturgy itself or carried in processions.
I just feel that this is something alien to the Orthodox spirituality.
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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2006, 01:10:29 AM »

I just feel that this is something alien to the Orthodox spirituality.

I can see where you would have a hard time with that.  Now that I look back, I can see that was a difficult concept for me as well. Nontheless, we have retained this Catholic tradition since it has brought much comfort and peace, and seems to be pleasing to the Lord in the context of our Catholic tradition.   
We have also witnessed a Eucharistic miracle where the Face of Christ appeared in the Eucharist at a Mass we were attending.  This Host has been preserved for the faithful and has touched many hearts. 

I think of this manifestation of His grace and True Presence in much the same way as I see the uncreated light;   as a special sign and marvel of His providence.  Does this idea conflict with Orthodox belief?

I believe that God rejoices in the variety of His creation and in the variety of ways we of differing traditions are touched. 

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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2006, 01:24:41 AM »

Catholic Encyclopedia

Reparation is a theological concept closely connected with those of atonement and satisfaction, and thus belonging to some of the deepest mysteries of the Christian Faith. It is the teaching of that Faith that man is a creature who has fallen from an original state of justice in which he was created, and that through the Incarnation, Passion, and Death of the Son of God, he has been redeemed and restored again in a certain degree to the original condition.

Although God might have condoned men's offences gratuitously if He had chosen to do so, yet in His Providence He did not do this; He judged it better to demand satisfaction for the injuries which man had done Him. It is better for man's education that wrong doing on his part should entail the necessity of making satisfaction. This satisfaction was made adequately to God by the Sufferings, Passion, and Death of Jesus Christ, made Man for us. By voluntary submission to His Passion and Death on the Cross, Jesus Christ atoned for our disobedience and sin. He thus made reparation to the offended majesty of God for the outrages which the Creator so constantly suffers at the hands of His creatures.

We are restored to grace through the merits of Christ's Death, and that grace enables us to add our prayers, labours, and trials to those of Our Lord "and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ" (Colossians 1:24).   (Does this Scripture have a different connotation for you?)

We can thus make some sort of reparation to the justice of God for our own offences against Him, and by virtue of the Communion of the Saints, the oneness and solidarity of the mystical Body of Christ, we can also make satisfaction and reparation for the sins of others.  This was the concept I was trying to communicate earlier,  of accompanying the Lord in His sufferings with the ingratitude of man.

It seems to me that this is much like St. Mary of Egypt for instance going out into the desert, in repentance and prayer,  or the profound yet sweet sense of repentance that comes upon entering into the heart of the Jesus Prayer.

Am I missing something?
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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2006, 01:32:49 AM »

I figured if we were going to be bringing up this discussion, we should see what the hub-bub was all about and post the devotions in question:
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Offering to the Sacred Heart of Jesus

MY LOVING Jesus! I [N.N.] give you my heart, and I consecrate myself wholly to you, out of the grateful love I bear you, and as a reparation for all my unfaithfulness, and with your aid I purpose never to sin again.

V. Heart of Jesus, burning with love of us,

R. Inflame our hearts with love of you.

Let us pray
Lord, we beseech you, let your Holy Spirit kindle in our hearts that fire of charity which Our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, sent forth from His inmost Heart upon this earth, and willed that it should burn with vehemence. Who lives and reigns with you, in the unity of the same Holy Spirit, God, forever and ever.

Amen.

Partial indulgence granted by Pope Pius VII, March 20, 1815.
________________________________________________________________________

An Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
(For the First Friday of the Month)

ADORABLE Heart of Jesus, glowing with love for us and inflamed with zeal for our salvation: O Heart! ever sensible of our misery and the wretchedness to which our sins have reduced us, infinitely rich in mercy to heal the wounds of our souls, behold us humbly prostrate before you to express the sorrow that fills our hearts for the coldness and indifference with which we have so long requited the numberless benefits that you have conferred upon us. With a deep sense of the outrages that have been heaped upon you by our sins and the sins of others, we come to make a solemn reparation of honor to your most sacred majesty. It was our sins that overwhelmed your Heart with bitterness; it was the weight of our iniquities that pressed down your face to the earth in the Garden of Olives, and caused you to expire in anguish and agony on the cross. But now, repenting and sorrowful, we cast ourselves at your feet, and implore, forgiveness. Adorable Heart of Jesus, source of true contrition and ever merciful to the penitent sinner, impart to our hearts the spirit of penance, and give to our eyes a fountain of tears, that we may sincerely bewail our sins now and for the rest of our days. Oh, would that we could blot them out, even with our blood! Pardon them, O Lord, in your mercy, and pardon and convert to you all that have committed irreverences and sacrileges against you in the sacrament of your love, and thus give another proof that your mercy is above all your works. Divine Jesus with you there are mercy and plentiful redemption deliver us from our sins, accept the sincere desire we now entertain, and our holy resolution, relying on your assistance of your grace, henceforth to be faithful to you. And in order to repair the sins of ingratitude by which we have grieved your most tender and loving Heart, we are resolved in the future ever to love and honor you in the most adorable Sacrament of the Altar, where you art ever present to hear and grant our petitions, and to be the food and life of our souls. Be you, O compassionate Jesus I our Mediator with your heavenly Father, Whom we have so grievously offended, strengthen our weakness, confirm these our resolutions of amendment, and as your sacred heart is our refuge and our hope when we have sinned, so may it be the strength and support of our repentance, that nothing in life or death may ever again separate us from you. Amen.
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An Act of Consecration and Reparation to the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus

MOST sacred Heart of Jesus! I adore you; I offer to you all that I am and all that I possess; I consecrate to you my soul with its faculties, my body with all its senses, my heart with all its affections, desiring in all things to honor, love, and glorify you; in thanksgiving for the numberless benefits that I have received from you, especially in the Holy Eucharist; in atonement for my own sins as well as in reparation for all the offenses that are committed against you in the sacrament of your love, and, finally, in humble supplication, that I may henceforth be faithful to you, that I may please you in thought, word, and deed, that I may suffer in patience and in perfect resignation to your holy will, that I may become like to you in meekness and humility, that I may persevere in your love and your grace to the end of my life, and that I may praise you and bless you with the saints and angels in eternity.

We beseech you, also, O good Jesus, by your sacred Heart, overflowing with sweetness and mercy, to bless our Holy Father, the Pope, and our Holy Mother, the Church; to take under your special protection this congregation [my parish], our homes, our country, our rulers, our legislators, our bishops, our priests, and all Religious Orders. We recommend to you all our concerns, our friends, relatives, benefactors, and all those who have asked us to pray for them; those who are sick and those who are dying, and all who are under any affliction. Cast an eye of compassion on obstinate sinners, [the mistaken], and unbelievers.

Give eternal rest to the faithful departed.

Bless in particular the apostolic labors of those who are engaged in giving missions and retreats, in propagating the Faith in [mission] lands, in spreading your kingdom on earth, and in fostering devotion to your most Sacred Heart and to the most holy Sacrament of the Altar. Amen.
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Form of Consecration

Issued with the Encyclical Letter of His Holiness, Leo XIII, dated May 25, 1899, on the consecration of mankind to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
 
Most sweet Jesus, Redeemer of the human race, look down upon us, humbly prostrate before your altar. We are yours and yours we wish to be; but to be more surely united with you, behold each one of us freely consecrates himself today to your most sacred Heart. Many, indeed, have never known you; many; too, despising your precepts, have rejected you. Have mercy on them all, most merciful Jesus, and draw them to your sacred Heart. Be you King, O Lord, not only of the faithful who have never forsaken you, but also of the prodigal children who have abandoned you; grant that they may quickly return to their Father's house, lest they die of wretchedness and hunger. Be you King of those who are deceived by erroneous opinions, or whom discord keeps aloof, and call them back to the harbor of truth and unity of faith, so that soon there may be but one flock and one shepherd. Be you King also of all those who sit in the ancient superstition of the Gentiles, and refuse not you to deliver them out of darkness into the light and kingdom of God. Grant, O Lord, to your Church, assurance of freedom and immunity from harm; give peace and order to all nations, and make the earth resound from pole to pole with one cry: Praise to the divine Heart that wrought our salvation; to it be glory and honor forever. Amen.
___________________________________________________________________________

An Act of Consecration to the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus.

TO You, most sacred Heart of Jesus, I devote my life. To You I consecrate all my thoughts, words, actions, and sufferings. My whole being shall be employed henceforth in loving, serving, and glorifying You. Be Thou, most blessed and adorable Heart, the sole object of my love, the protector of my life, the pledge of my salvation, and my secure refuge at the hour of my death. Be Thou my advocate at the throne of Divine Justice, and screen me from the wrath which my sins deserve.

I trust entirely in your mercy. I place all my confidence in You. Destroy in me all that is displeasing to You. Jesus, meek and humble of heart, make my heart like unto Thine. Imprint Thyself like a seal upon my heart in order that I may never be separated from You. May I be a victim forever consecrated to your glory - ever burning with the flames of your pure love in time and for eternity. This is my whole desire - to live, in You: This shall be my happiness, to live and die as your devoted servant. Sweet Heart of Jesus, I implore that I may love You more and more. Amen.

V. Heart of Jesus, burning with love for us.

R. Inflame our hearts with love of You.

Let us pray
Lord, we beseech You, let your Holy Spirit kindle in our hearts that fire of charity which Our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, sent forth from His inmost heart upon this earth, and willed that it should burn with vehemence. Who lives and reigns with You, in the unity of the same Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen.
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Prayer in Honor of the Passion of Our Savior
 

GOD, Who for the world's redemption was pleased to be born, circumcised, rejected by the Jews, betrayed by the kiss of the traitor Judas, bound with chains, led like an innocent lamb to sacrifice, and shamefully presented before Annas, Caiphas, Pilate, and Herod, accused by false witnesses, beaten with whips, buffeted, insulted, spit upon, crowned with thorns, smitten with a reed, blindfolded,, stripped of your garments, fastened with nails to the cross, and lifted up on high, reputed among thieves, and made to drink gall and vinegar, and wounded by a lance; oh, by these most sacred sufferings, which, unworthy as I am, I thus commemorate, and by your holy cross and death, deliver me, Lord, from the pains of hell, and deign to lead me where Thou did lead the penitent thief, who was crucified by your side; Thou Who, with the Father and the Holy Ghost, lives and reigns, world without end. Amen.

Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory be to the Father, etc. five times.
_______________________________________________________________

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Christ is in our midst,
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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2006, 02:16:37 AM »

I figured if we were going to be bringing up this discussion, we should see what the hub-bub was all about and post the devotions in question:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Offering to the Sacred Heart of Jesus

MY LOVING Jesus! I [N.N.] give you my heart, and I consecrate myself wholly to you, out of the grateful love I bear you, and as a reparation for all my unfaithfulness, and with your aid I purpose never to sin again.

V. Heart of Jesus, burning with love of us,

R. Inflame our hearts with love of you

That is quite a bit!!  I can remember, remotely, saying these prayers at all night vigils in Maryland about twenty years ago. 

But there came a time when His Sacred Heart became simple and pure and the prayers were less about words and more about repentance, and offering Him a resting place in our hearts made tender by His grace.

A whole concept of yielding our imperfections to Him has come about in the simple exclamation, from Him to us,  "Put your hands on My Heart, and My love will work the miracles."    By miracles, we mean the miracle of living a holy life, seeing as how we are so poorly suited to do so.

Just as we would place our chotke on an icon to draw a blessing from it,  we place our hands, a symbol of our insufficient humanity, upon His perfect divine Heart, praying to receive from Him all the graces necessary to live a life of charity and service,  pleasing to Him. 

And in another analogy, like the woman with the issue of blood,  touching the hem of His garment, virtue went out of Him,  so do we place our hands over His Heart, that His virtue would enkindle us with the flames of Divine Love.

It seems that Orthodoxy is more simple, more from the heart than these lengthly prayers;  like  the Jesus Prayer, it is simple and pure. 

We do not encourage the lengthly written prayers to the souls that come here, rather we ask them to cultivate their hearts as His dwelling place and to be present to Him just as they are, offering Him a contrite heart for our lapses, and genuine sorrow for the lapses of others...comforting Him.

This is what reparation means to me.  Is there some thing unOrthodox about this concept?







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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2006, 05:30:27 AM »

For me, these devotions (to the "Blessed Sacrament", to "The Sacred Heart of Jesus or Mary", the "First Fridays of the month" etc) are the weirdest part of the Catholic spirituality. I think I would feel more confortable with the extemporaneous prayers of the Protestants than with these Catholic practices.
I also found it odd to devote one's prayers to a portion of Jesus.
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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2006, 06:40:08 AM »

I understand that there is an objection to the Sacred Heart devotion practiced by Catholics.

I would like to know what in particular are the objections.

Thank you.
Personnaly,I like reading about those sacred traditions, although the're not a part of our orthodox tradition.
We may not have the devotion in some parts of the Body of Our Saviour's , but we do have respect to His Holy Mantle (Άγιον Μανδήλιον) or the Αγία Ζώνη of Our Blessed Mother.
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« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2006, 08:35:44 AM »

I would like to know what in particular are the objections.

"practiced by Catholics."

You answered your own question. The Roman Catholic church is OUTSIDE the Church.
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« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2006, 10:13:51 AM »

Quote
We may not have the devotion in some parts of the Body of Our Saviour's , but we do have respect to His Holy Mantle (Άγιον Μανδήλιον) or the Αγία Ζώνη of Our Blessed Mother.

Yep yep. Just looking around, as well, I also see an Akathist to the Life-Bearing Tomb. Surely if it's acceptable to sing a hymn that on its face is a veneration of an inanimate object, it's ok to venerate part of Christ (or, in the case of the Blessed Sacrament, Christ Himself)? The Sacred Heart is an image or metaphor for Christ's love, not an attempt to venerate a body part in isolation, any more than the many many Byzantine feast days celebrating a particular icon are attempts to venerate a mere object, rather than what that object stands in for.
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« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2006, 10:25:17 AM »

This devotion is outside the Eastern traditions, Orthodox, Oriental or Assyrian. It comes from 17th-century France.

Because it happened outside their church the Orthodox don't rule either way on it: 'Who are you to judge another man's servant?', etc.

I understand that hearts as a metaphor for love (on that, Mother Anastasia, describing the Roman Catholic view, is correct) were big in the French culture, including piety, of the time.

Saying that the devotion is at least semi-Nestorian seems ignorant of the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church, which agrees with the Orthodox on the hypostatic union, and 'you worship a heart, you worship a body part' is a Protestant-like slur unworthy of the Orthodox that can easily boomerang: it's really the same as 'you worship* a piece of bread at Liturgy', 'you worship Mary', 'you worship the bones of saints' or 'you worship paintings'. I think you see the point.

So just as the Incarnation makes icons possible even though the Commandments forbid graven images, it makes possible the worship given the Sacrament during the Orthodox Liturgy and the use by Roman Catholics of Jesus' heart as a physical symbol of his love. (My opinion.)

It does not belong in the Orthodox churches liturgically and those churches' rules forbid it there. Their rite has its own native expression of Christ's love, calling him the one who loves mankind (Philanthropos, Человеколюбец) and does not need add-ons from another rite or church to 'make it better'.

How one prays outside of church is one's own business but I'm sure most here would agree that an Orthodox would talk to his parish priest and/or (if they are different priests) father confessor/spiritual father about that. Many priests would say not to use it.

I understand from an Orthodox priest who lived in Palestine that at home among the people this crossover - RC popular art in Orthodox homes, etc. - happens all the time.

Quote
Yep yep. Just looking around, as well, I also see an Akathist to the Life-Bearing Tomb. Surely if it's acceptable to sing a hymn that on its face is a veneration of an inanimate object, it's ok to venerate part of Christ (or, in the case of the Blessed Sacrament, Christ Himself)? The Sacred Heart is an image or metaphor for Christ's love, not an attempt to venerate a body part in isolation, any more than the many many Byzantine feast days celebrating a particular icon are attempts to venerate a mere object, rather than what that object stands in for.

Precisely.

*In the modern sense of latreia, the worship due to God, not the broader, older sense of reverence in general, like that given to the saints, holy things or even to one's king.

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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2006, 11:49:56 AM »

Another reason I seldom visit here and hardly recommend to others...too much Tom-foolery or should it be worded the opposite way...a sad momment for a forum that use to be decent.

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« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2006, 01:32:37 PM »

The Eucharist is meant to be consummed, in my oppinion, not to be adored outside the liturgy itself or carried in processions.
I just feel that this is something alien to the Orthodox spirituality.

It may be alien to EASTERN Orthodox spirituality, but it certainly has a place in western spirituality. I've heard of Western Rite parishes having Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.
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« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2006, 02:37:06 PM »

This is a relatively late Western developement (13th century) and I think it is entirely unconsistent with the Orthodox understanding of the Eucharist.
The bread and the wine are consecrated in order to be eaten; now, to consecrate the bread IN ORDER TO BE ADORED OUTSIDE THE LITURGY ITSELF seems a sort of anomaly and a pietistic deviation to me. "The Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament" obscures the meaning of the Eucharist and the Liturgy itself. They have also developped the strange theory of the so-called "spiritual communion" which supposedly could replace in certain instances the sacramental communion.
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I've heard of Western Rite parishes having Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.
I've never seen a Western rite Orthodox Church, and have only recently heard about their existence.
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« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2006, 04:24:20 PM »

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The bread and the wine are consecrated in order to be eaten; now, to consecrate the bread IN ORDER TO BE ADORED OUTSIDE THE LITURGY ITSELF seems a sort of anomaly and a pietistic deviation to me. [...] They have also developped the strange theory of the so-called "spiritual communion" which supposedly could replace in certain instances the sacramental communion.

You do know that for most of Orthodox history infrequent communion has been the norm? That until the middle of this century it was not uncommon for people to only commune once a year, and the rest of the time satisfy themselves with the benediction* and receiving antidoron, and that there are still many places where communion is only taken a few times a year? It seems rather silly to go on about the Orthodox understanding of the Sacrament being that It's supposed to be eaten, when most people do not in fact eat It.

* Yes, it's exactly the same thing as the WR benediction, i.e. blessing the congregation with the Sacrament
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« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2006, 04:30:26 PM »

You do know that for most of Orthodox history infrequent communion has been the norm? That until the middle of this century it was not uncommon for people to only commune once a year, and the rest of the time satisfy themselves with the benediction* and receiving antidoron, and that there are still many places where communion is only taken a few times a year? It seems rather silly to go on about the Orthodox understanding of the Sacrament being that It's supposed to be eaten, when most people do not in fact eat It.

* Yes, it's exactly the same thing as the WR benediction, i.e. blessing the congregation with the Sacrament

MOST? Certainly for many centuries, but MOST? I guess it's tough to determine, based on the sources, when exactly frequent communion fell out of vogue, but, around the the time of the Quinisext Council it was still frequently received, as the Council's canons make clear -- as does the introduction of the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy into Great Lent.

Do you know of a text older than, say, the Pedalion that advises infrequent communion?
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« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2006, 04:46:51 PM »

Quote
You do know that for most of Orthodox history infrequent communion has been the norm? That until the middle of this century it was not uncommon for people to only commune once a year, and the rest of the time satisfy themselves with the benediction* and receiving antidoron, and that there are still many places where communion is only taken a few times a year?
I come myself from such a tradition as you talk about, and yet even if there were few or no communicants, the Eastern piety has not devised an extra-liturgical service analogous to the "Adoration and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament".
I do not object in any way to the adoration and the benediction of and with the Eucharistic elements in the context of the Liturgy; what is unsettling to me is the fact that these take place outside the Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2006, 04:47:04 PM »

Quote
MOST? Certainly for many centuries, but MOST? I guess it's tough to determine, based on the sources, when exactly frequent communion fell out of vogue, but, around the the time of the Quinisext Council it was still frequently received, as the Council's canons make clear -- as does the introduction of the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy into Great Lent.

OTOH, St. John Chrysostom railed against the habit of infrequently communing, and Pope Fabian (in the 3rd century) made it a rule that the faithful had to commune three times per year (confirmed later at the local Council of Agde).
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« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2006, 04:48:59 PM »

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I do not object in any way to the adoration and the benediction of and with the Eucharistic elements in the context of the Liturgy; what is unsettling to me is the fact that these take place outside the Divine Liturgy.

Why is benediction with the Sacrament acceptable when it takes place at the end of the Liturgy (after everyone who's going to commune has done so), and not when performed after the Liturgy? The Sacrament remains the Sacrament even after the Liturgy is finished, and is still worthy of adoration.
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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2006, 04:57:52 PM »

I agree that the Sacrament remains a Sacrament even after the Liturgy.
But is it lawful to keep it after the Liturgy?
In the OC it is only allowed to keep the Eucharist for the purpose of communing the sick.
But in the case of the Roman office of "The Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament" the communion itself seems entirely out of its meaning and end.
You might hear about "spiritual communion" though.
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« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2006, 05:11:50 PM »

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But is it lawful to keep it after the Liturgy?

Evidently, as it's kept in almost every Orthodox church.

Quote
In the OC it is only allowed to keep the Eucharist for the purpose of communing the sick.

And for the Liturgy of the Presanctified. But is there an actual rule against venerating the Sacrament outside of the Liturgy, or is it only reserved for communion of the sick and at the Presanctified simply because that's all the Byzantine rite happens to do with the Sacrament outside the Liturgy?

Quote
But in the case of the Roman office of "The Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament" the communion itself seems entirely out of its meaning and end.

If the meaning and end of the Sacrament is only to be eaten, then the benediction at the end of the Divine Liturgy is equally as problematic as the WR benediction.

Quote
You might hear about "spiritual communion" though.

Which is no different than taking antidoron, i.e. not communing, and substituting some other practice instead.
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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2006, 05:30:38 PM »

OTOH, St. John Chrysostom railed against the habit of infrequently communing, and Pope Fabian (in the 3rd century) made it a rule that the faithful had to commune three times per year (confirmed later at the local Council of Agde).

Ah. MOST in that sense. Well, for that matter, there are many ancient writings and canons that censure those who stay away from the chalice (including excommunication to whoever avoids the Eucharist for more than 3 Sundays in a row). Presumably, these indicate that many people did, in fact, abstain from the Eucharist. However, these texts also show that the Church in general preached against such practices.

Nevertheless, there are those in the modern Church who have made infrequent communion a point of quasi-doctrine, since, in their experience in the motherland, no one receives frequently (b/c of a belief that a non-cleric is unworthy of such activity and/or the belief that one must prepare with many prayers, confession and, possibly, an extended fast -- up to 3 days in some areas).

The difference between these two approaches is obvious. I am unaware of any text before the Turkokratia that advocates infrequent communion.
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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2006, 05:47:45 PM »

Quote
then the benediction at the end of the Divine Liturgy is equally as problematic as the WR benediction.

The Western Rite is a fairly new experiment in the Orthodox Church (i.e the concept of a handful of Western usage parishes under Byzantine bishops and in the context of an almost entirely Byzantine Church - not the rite itself), so to use it as setting a precedent for Orthopraxis a bit of a stretch.  I think the better question is when and why did the practice of extra-liturgical Eucharistic Adoration come about in the West. ÂÂ

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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2006, 05:53:31 PM »

I understand that hearts as a metaphor for love
In Scripture, the heart is not the seat of Love, the bowels are. In Matthew 9:36, it says:
"But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd."
The word "compassion" is a translation of the original greek word "εσπλαγχνισθη" means "moved in his guts". So shouldn't they be venerating the "Sacred Guts"?
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2006, 06:10:52 PM »

Well, for that matter, there are many ancient writings and canons that censure those who stay away from the chalice (including excommunication to whoever avoids the Eucharist for more than 3 Sundays in a row). Presumably, these indicate that many people did, in fact, abstain from the Eucharist. However, these texts also show that the Church in general preached against such practices.

And which writings are these?  I'm not doubting - just want to know.  Thanks.
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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2006, 06:16:35 PM »

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The word "compassion" is a translation of the original greek word "εσπλαγχνισθη" means "moved in his guts". So shouldn't they be venerating the "Sacred Guts"?

Considering that the Sacred Heart devotion arose in a non-Greek speaking culture, what does any of what you wrote have to do with anything?  Christianity can be expressed in vernacular idiom. 
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2006, 06:43:11 PM »

Why not the Sacred Guts? The same reason one wouldn't give one's significant other a card with a picture of one's colonoscopy for Valentine's Day. Please.

Both sides agree that the Sacrament exists primarily to be used - to be eaten and drunk.

One may not know it from watching EWTN but in fact the traditional, pre-Vatican II Roman Rite is very strict about use of the Sacrament outside of Mass and sick calls exactly for that reason. One has to get the bishop's permission to do those things.

Every consecrated Host, even those used for those devotions, is eventually eaten.

And yes, Eastern Orthodox believe in the abiding Real Presence and thus reserve the Sacrament.  And there is a kind of 'Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament' in the Liturgy after Communion.

So why no extra-liturgical devotions to the Eucharist in Eastern Orthodoxy?

Because there was no movement in Orthodox countries seriously threatening the people's belief in the Real Presence.

So those devotions weren't needed - they never developed.

In the West even before Protestantism there was such a threat so these practices sprang up in reaction. (The same reason Aquinas used Aristotle to try to explain belief in that Presence.)

Western Rite Orthodox use them. They aren't and don't claim to be re-enactors of pre-schism liturgy - they retain Western Catholic practices as there is no theological objection to them... according to Kallistos (Ware) in The Orthodox Church. He says the same thing about these practices related to the Eastern Orthodox - there is no historical or liturgical reason to change the early church's emphasis on the Sacrament's main use but there is no theological objection to the practices in themselves.
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2006, 09:18:23 PM »

And yes, Eastern Orthodox believe in the abiding Real Presence and thus reserve the Sacrament.  And there is a kind of 'Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament' in the Liturgy after Communion.
Let's not forget the Great Entrance at the Divine Liturgy of the Pre-Sanctified Gifts.  "Lo, the King of Glory enters."
So why no extra-liturgical devotions to the Eucharist in Eastern Orthodoxy?
Because there was no movement in Orthodox countries seriously threatening the people's belief in the Real Presence.
So those devotions weren't needed - they never developed.
In the West even before Protestantism there was such a threat so these practices sprang up in reaction.
The hymn sung at Roman Catholic Benedictions shows this.
Tantum ergo Sacramentum
  Veneremur cernul,
Et antiquum documentum
  Novo cedat ritul;
Praestet fides supplementum
  Sensuum defectful
.

Down in adoration falling,
  This great Sacrament we hail;
Over ancient forms of worship
  Newer rites of grace prevail;
Faith will tell us Christ is present,
  When our human senses fail.

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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2006, 09:31:32 PM »

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The Western Rite is a fairly new experiment in the Orthodox Church (i.e the concept of a handful of Western usage parishes under Byzantine bishops and in the context of an almost entirely Byzantine Church - not the rite itself), so to use it as setting a precedent for Orthopraxis a bit of a stretch.

When I say WR, I'm not referring specifically to those Orthodox who use a western rite, but rather the historical rites of the West.
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« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2006, 11:35:41 PM »

After reading everyone's posts, I am not hearing any objection to the concept of reparation, as I explained it and as it is presented in the formal prayers that were posted on page one.

And yet,  I have been hearing that the concept of reparation is un-Orthodox.

Was this just a simple misunderstanding of definitions or is there truly a theological error in the concept as it has been presented here?

Thank you for all your constructive input.  I am learning a great deal.
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« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2006, 06:40:24 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9055.msg121051#msg121051 date=1147817795]
Considering that the Sacred Heart devotion arose in a non-Greek speaking culture, what does any of what you wrote have to do with anything?  Christianity can be expressed in vernacular idiom. [/quote]
Oh good. So on that basis, you can have no objection to me promoting Devotion to the Sacred Guts of Jesus in Greece.
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« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2006, 06:57:16 AM »

After reading everyone's posts, I am not hearing any objection to the concept of reparation, as I explained it and as it is presented in the formal prayers that were posted on page one.

And yet,  I have been hearing that the concept of reparation is un-Orthodox.

Was this just a simple misunderstanding of definitions or is there truly a theological error in the concept as it has been presented here?

Thank you for all your constructive input.  I am learning a great deal.
Is this statement True or False people?:
Reparation is a completely Orthodox Dogma taught by the Orthodox Church. Every sin must be atoned for, because Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and imperfect. Only through our suffering can God forgive our sins, because His mercy is not freely given- but only to those who have merited it by making reparation for their sins (especially to the Sacred Guts/Heart of Jesus on the first Friday of every month for nine consecutive months as Jesus Himself has said in His Twelfth Promise).
May the Sacred Guts of Jesus have mercy on us.
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« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2006, 07:38:08 AM »

The Roman Catholic teaching of Reparation is not an Eastern Orthodox belief taught by the Eastern Fathers of the Church. Once again its basis is found in the teachings of Blessed Agustine and not the Eastern Fathers.  Reparation is deemed as unneccessary as the death of Jesus resolved all need to make further reparation.

There is however evidence that this RC belief arose as a method of comfort and private revelation for those who initially were confined to bed and sought a reason of justification for the suffering they were experiencing. Much like the teachings of post WW II Psychiatrist Viktor Frankl's  "Logo Therapy" in which "Man's search for meaning" explains why good people suffer bad things and gain meaning behind their suffering. The private revelations and devotions involving Reparation arise out of this need to find meaning behind their suffering. The meaning that was found was that one could offer their suffering in reparation for the hurts that people of the world have done to Our Lord and Our Lady. This RC teaching has greatly helped people suffering from painful diseases, violent marriages, child abuse, spouse abuse, or in the process of dying a painful death---they are comforted that they may offer their pain and hurt to Jesus as a self sacrifice to allow him to know how sorry they are for the hurt that the world has done to He and his Most Holy Mother.

If one researches the earliest writings of Western Saints who developed the doctrine of Reparation doctrine, you will find them confined to the bed, suffering from a disability.  Some like Bernadette of Lourdes had Cancer or tuberculosis and found solace in Reparation  doctrine.  It is interesting to note that Sister Faustina of the Divine Mercy also suffered from Tuberculosis.  Many felt that their illnesses where allowed to them as a gift to help them make reparation for their sins and the sins of others. The doctrine of Reparations is similar to the RC doctrine of the Treasury of Merits that is tied to the RC belief of Purgatory.

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« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2006, 08:00:00 AM »

And which writings are these?  I'm not doubting - just want to know.  Thanks.
Canon LXXX of the Council of Trullo prescribed excommunication for anyone who missed three consecutive Sunday Liturgies without valid reason.
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« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2006, 09:45:40 AM »

Quote
Is this statement True or False, people?:

Reparation is a completely Orthodox Dogma taught by the Orthodox Church. Every sin must be atoned for, because Christ's sacrifice was insufficient and imperfect. Only through our suffering can God forgive our sins, because His mercy is not freely given- but only to those who have merited it by making reparation for their sins (especially to the Sacred Guts/Heart of Jesus on the first Friday of every month for nine consecutive months as Jesus Himself has said in His Twelfth Promise).

As Thomas says farther down in this thread Orthodoxy doesn't use that term nor has defined it as doctrine. As for the rest, of course that's horrible and heretical and if that's what Roman Catholicism teaches then to hell with it. But it's not. No sound Christian really believes that Jesus' sacrifice wasn't 'good enough'. That's a Jack Chick parody of Roman Catholicism. But sin does spiritual and psychic damage, which is why both RCs and Orthodox have ascesis like fasting and there is the intermediate state, however you want to define it, for souls forgiven by God and thus saved but 'not ready for prime time', not ready to enter heaven. (Pannikhida, anyone?)

Which relates to what Thomas said (thanks for the historical background behind the belief, which I didn't know about and which makes sense). I interpret all that as a colourful way of describing ascesis, by tying it into Jesus' one sacrifice, not treating it like a sacrifice separate from it.

As for the nine First Fridays, things like that are problematic. It can be twisted into something superstitious, much like Protestants' 'once saved, always saved', like 'I can do this and afterwards commit any sins I want because I know I'll be saved in the end!' (So bring on the nubile 20-year-old girls.) Not what the RC Church really teaches of course. The Protestant version ('I accepted Jesus as my personal Saviour so from now on it doesn't matter what I do') is just as wrong. God can't be manipulated like that. I think the orthodox (small o) spin on the First Fridays is if you stay away from sin and receive grace in Communion for nine months you grow in grace such that chances are better you'll be saved when you die.

Quote
May the Sacred Guts of Jesus have mercy on us.

Do you realise how bad Orthodoxy looks from making remarks like that? If a Roman Catholic on his own, in no way representing his church, made fun of icons on an RC board, how would you like it? AFAIK Orthodoxy believes in the Golden Rule.
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« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2006, 10:17:43 AM »

if that's what Roman Catholicism teaches then to hell with it. But it's not. No sound Christian really believes that Jesus' sacrifice wasn't 'good enough'. That's a Jack Chick parody of Roman Catholicism. But sin does spiritual and psychic damage, which is why both RCs and Orthodox have ascesis like fasting and there is the intermediate state.
I think I shall take a Roman Catholic priest's take on this over yours as to what the Roman Catholic Position on this is. A Jesuit Priest by the name fo Fr. John A. Hardon writes:
Quote

"
Why Penance and Reparation?


If we ask, why penance and reparation, the first answer is: Because God wants it.

But if we press the question: Why does God want it? Then we must say, because in His mysterious wisdom, His justice requires it. We may legitimately say, without really understanding it, that He has no choice. Having given us a free will, if we abuse liberty, we must use our freedom to repay to God the love we have stolen from Him (which is penance) and repair the damage we have done (which is reparation).

Notice, all along I have been using the first person plural, "we", because penance and reparation are owed to God not only because I have individually sinned, but because we human beings have sinned and are sinning, in our day, on a scale never before conceived in the annals of history.


We know better than Cain after he killed his brother, Abel. We are our brother's keepers. We are mysteriously co-responsible for what other people do wrong. There is a profound sense in which all of us are somehow to do penance and make reparation, not only for our sinful misdeeds, but for the sins of our country and, indeed, for the sins of the whole human race.

We return to our question: Why penance and reparation? Because, in Christ's words, "Unless you do penance, you shall all likewise perish".

Is it any wonder that on Pentecost Sunday, after Peter preached his sermon, and rebuked the people for their sins, and they asked him, "what must we do," his first word to the multitude was the imperative verb, "Repent!"

Is it any wonder that Our Lady of Fatima's message to a sinful world in our day, may be summarized in the same imperative, "Do penance."

Indeed, the calamities that we have so far seen in this present century: two world wars with more casualties than in all the previous wars of history, and the threat of a nuclear holocaust that hangs over us like a tornado cloud. All of this is God's warning to do penance and reparation. Why? Because God is not mocked.

You do not offend God with impunity. You do not sin without retribution. You do not ignore the will of the Almighty and expect the Almighty to ignore what you do.

What bears emphasis, however, is that this retribution is either to be paid willingly, with our penance and reparation, or will be paid unwillingly within the divine punishment.

The divine logic is simple, awfully simple, and all we have to do is learn what God is telling us. Either we do penance and reparation because we want to, or we shall suffer (against our will) the consequences of our sins in this life, and in the life to come.

But remember, this penance and reparation is to be done not only for what we have personally done wrong. It is for all the pride and lust, for all the cruelty and greed, for all the envy and laziness and gluttony of a sin-laden human family.

God is merciful and in fact as our Holy Father has told us, Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of divine mercy. But God's mercy is conditional. It is conditional on our practice of penance and reparation."

Hmmmmmmm...And you think this view is compatable to the Orthodox view of ascesis?...
And if this quote is not compatable with Roman Catholic dogma, why hasn't this Jesuit been slammed down by his bishop for publishing this nonsense on the internet?

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« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2006, 11:16:32 AM »

I think the question of whether Fr Hardon is claiming God's mercy is conditional or not depends on whether we're talking about eternal or, in RC terms, temporal punishment. Essentially Fr H agrees that sin does psychic and spiritual damage even when it's forgiven. A classic catechism-style example is: what if you steal a million dollars? You can repent and be forgiven in confession... but you still have to work to give the money back, turn yourself in to the police, etc. Does that mean Jesus' sacrifice was limited or God's forgiveness and mercy are? Of course not. I think that analogy works for either Orthodox or RCs.

Skimming the article I agree that Fr H infelicitously words things so that it looks like the Jack Chick parody: 'Y'all think you earn your way into heaven with your works-righteousness and don't really have faith in JEEEESUS!'
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« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2006, 11:42:00 AM »

The term/reference of bowels ;

"The interior of something"

Archaic meaning - "The seat of pity or the gentler emotions"

Using that "other" term in reference to the Lord's organs is disgusting, though I would expect it from ignorant people.

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« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2006, 12:14:54 PM »

We even had in our church in Romania (Transylvania) images of "The Sacred Heart of Jesus", but both the priest or the people were unaware of their meaning and they just hang on the walls of the church.
You also can find many pictures of that kind used as icons in Orthodox households, but I really doubt that people are aware of the theology behind these images.
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« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2006, 12:27:15 PM »

Quote
why hasn't this Jesuit been slammed down by his bishop for publishing this nonsense on the internet?

LOL!  And by this George reveals he knows nothing about the Catholic Church he is so happy to insult.  A Jesuit slammed down, I think not. ÂÂ

Quote
Oh good. So on that basis, you can have no objection to me promoting Devotion to the Sacred Guts of Jesus in Greece.

That is not what I said.  The point I was getting at is that is irrelevant to refrence a Greek idiomatic expression in order to understand an idiomatic expression of Divine mercy in other languages and cultures. ÂÂ

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« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2006, 04:35:56 PM »

But sin does spiritual and psychic damage, which is why both RCs and Orthodox have ascesis like fasting

The way we have understood the workings of suffering in our lives, is as an ascetic practice to repair spiritual damage,  accepting what providence allows, with a spirit of submission to the will of God and uniting ourselves with the sufferings of Christ. (And asking God to release actual graces to help us through our times of trial, in a spirit of gracious acceptance.)

And additionally we view sufferings as a means to bring our flesh into submission to the spirit  and as a fast offering to God on behalf of other souls, along with prayer for them that He would release graces to bring about conversion, healing, and reconciliation in their lives.

Quote from Thomas
The Roman Catholic teaching of Reparation is not an Eastern Orthodox belief taught by the Eastern Fathers of the Church. Once again its basis is found in the teachings of Blessed Agustine and not the Eastern Fathers.  Reparation is deemed as unnecessary as the death of Jesus resolved all need to make further reparation.


I understand that Augustine may have been the one to expound on this principle, but its basis is not  in Augustine, it is in the writings of Paul:

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, on behalf of His body which is the church,  Col. 1:24

I do not understand why the Eastern Fathers of the church did not expound on this, since it is a theme that is repeated over and over again in the letters as well as the Gospels.

But we cannot ignore the Scriptures, especially when experience has taught us that if we are interceding on behalf of any soul, there will be an accompanying suffering.  When someone tells me of a particular suffering they are going through, I always ask them,  "And who are you praying for right now that needs a greater abundance of God's grace?"

What we teach, is that Christ was in no way lacking in His afflictions,  but because of His desire that we should be co-laborers with Him, He most graciously left a gap for us to fill with our sufferings, as a proof of our love for Him, for what spouse does not pour herself out to help the one she loves in his work?

This does not compromise the fullness and completion of His work in the incarnation and passion,  nor does it excuse us from denying ourselves, picking up our cross, and following Him to Calvary, as a co-redemptive act, on behalf of souls.

For we are God's co-workers; you are God's field,...
10 I Cor 3:9

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death, Philippians 3:10

if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.  Romans 8:17

6 Now whether we be in tribulation, it is for your exhortation and salvation:
or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation:
or whether we be exhorted, it is for your exhortation and salvation,
which worketh the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer.
7 That our hope for you may be steadfast:
knowing that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so shall you be also of the consolation.  II Cor 1

13 But if you partake of the sufferings of Christ, rejoice that when his glory shall be revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. I Peter 4

St. Seraphim said that the goal of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit.

But to what end?  So that we can be about the business of God, laboring in His vineyard.

If the purpose of life is to know, to love and to serve God, and for His purposes after completing many years of seminary training, He allows you to fall into a debilitating illness, even though you were trained and ready to go to a foreign land and sacrifice yourself for Him, out of pure love, what are we to conclude?

Does your life count for nothing now that you cannot go on your mission?

Or Has God in His inscrutable plan made a different decision, asking you to forgo your own will and graciously accept this illness as providential, and to trust that He will derive from it the same benefits or perhaps even more, than if you were involved in active ministry in the mission field, even to martyrdom.

I do not believe that the sacrificial suffering of a soul for others is merely a concept to comfort a Catholic in their sufferings,  but the real and viable spiritual dynamic Paul talks about, that we are filling up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ on behalf of His body, and that it is constantly at work everyday in Orthodox and Catholic alike,  and that we have yet to discover how truly pervasive it is.

And I would hope that just because Augustine was perhaps the first to expound on this dynamic, and it has found footing in the RCC,  that if it has truth and merit, that would not stop the Orthodox from embracing it as Paul did.












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« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2006, 05:59:25 PM »

Using that "other" term in reference to the Lord's organs is disgusting, though I would expect it from ignorant people.
Now that's simply ethnocentrism. Archaic in English doesn't make it "disgusting". And the devotion to the Sacred Heart is a private revelation is it not? and therefore it is not binding on faith. The "other" organ is referred to in the original text of the New Testament, and is therefore public revelation. If the Sacred Heart is Fully God and Fully Human, and therefore can be an Object of worship of Christ, then so can every other individual Organ. Every Organ of our Lord's Body is equally sacred. There is nothing "disgusting" about what God has created. However, to seperate one Organ for devotion is weird no matter which one it is: Heart, Liver, Pancreas, Kidney....
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« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2006, 06:08:54 PM »

We even had in our church in Romania (Transylvania) images of "The Sacred Heart of Jesus", but both the priest or the people were unaware of their meaning and they just hang on the walls of the church.
I hardly think that modern Romania, where last year a priest crucified a nun and let her die during an "exorcism", and then stated that her death was "justified" can be considered a "bastion" of Orthodoxy yet. Orthodoxy is being rotted from the inside by the ignorance of people who consider it to be no different to Roman Catholicism with an "Eastern flavour".
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« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2006, 06:10:46 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9055.msg121145#msg121145 date=1147883235]
LOL!  And by this George reveals he knows nothing about the Catholic Church he is so happy to insult.  [/quote]
Who have I insulted? Why is the heart sacred and the guts not?
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« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2006, 06:39:28 PM »

George,
Has Australia become the bastion of Orthodoxy?
Romanian Orthodoxy (along with other several less known brands thereof) has never seen itself as the bastion and the heart of Orthodoxy, unlike other ethnic variants of it.
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« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2006, 06:47:06 PM »

Romanian Orthodoxy (along with other several less known brands thereof) has never seen itself as the bastion and the heart of Orthodoxy, unlike other ethnic variants of it.
And which variarnts would they be?
I would have thought the modern bastion of Orthodox was the multiultural Holy Mountain.
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« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2006, 06:49:22 PM »

You know them I guess.

Quote
I would have thought the modern bastion of Orthodox was the multiultural Holy Mountain.
I've heard that this is no longer as "multicultural" as it used to be, one culture being a bit intolerant of others.
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« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2006, 06:50:08 PM »

Quote
I hardly think that modern Romania, where last year a priest crucified a nun and let her die during an "exorcism", and then stated that her death was "justified" can be considered a "bastion" of Orthodoxy yet.

The Romanian Orthodox Church condemned the actions of the priest and nuns invovled in that tragedy.  You are bearing false witness by conviently leaving out that the Romanian Church did not and does not condone this.  For instance, the recent scandals in Greece were much more widespread and included bishops - but I don't see you questioning the Orthodoxy of the Greek Church.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Quote
Why is the heart sacred and the guts not?

It's not that any part of Christ is not sacred, it is that the heart - not the guts - of Christ is the natural idiom to express divine mercy in the Latin culture where the devotion arose.  I'm not defending the devotion as Orthodox; merely I'm stating that the Greek idiom in question has nothing to do with the discussion. ÂÂ

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« Reply #56 on: May 17, 2006, 06:59:41 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9055.msg121189#msg121189 date=1147906208]
merely I'm stating that the Greek idiom in question has nothing to do with the discussion.  [/quote]
I don't see why not. As I said, the "greek idiom" is Scriptural, and therefore public revelation. On the other hand, the "Sacred Heart" was a private revelation to St. Margret Mary Alocoque. So the "greek idiom" carries the more weight of the two as far as being a revelation goes, whether you are Catholic or Orthodox. Unless, of course, you subscribe to the belief that the Scriptures were written in English.
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« Reply #57 on: May 17, 2006, 07:07:24 PM »

And if this quote is not compatable with Roman Catholic dogma, why hasn't this Jesuit been slammed down by his bishop for publishing this nonsense on the internet?

There are many things on the internet that are published by Catholic priests and religious that do not necessarily correspond to true Catholic doctrine.  And the Bishops do not always oppose such things.


To quote Father Hardon, who is extremely conservative:

God is merciful and in fact as our Holy Father has told us, Jesus Christ is the Incarnation of divine mercy. But God's mercy is conditional. It is conditional on our practice of penance and reparation.

In my personal experience, God gives me mercy when I have done nothing to deserve it, unmerited favor and forgiveness.

Like the unjust servant who owed the king a large sum, the king showed him mercy by not taking all his belongings and family,  but then this same servant went out and beat his fellow servant demanding repayment for a much smaller sum.   

The unjust servant did nothing to earn the writing off of his debt from the King,  without any payment (penances, reparation, etc) he pardoned the servant's debt.   But then the servant did not do the same for the man that owed him.

I believe the Lord gave us this parable to disclose in a childlike and simple way, the divine dynamics of mercy.

'I have shown you great mercy,  for there is no way you could make payment for your sin,  therefore go out among your brothers and do likewise.' 

Show unconditional love and forgiveness, not demanding payment for offences against you.  Dismiss the debts of those who have injured you. + Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...

We tell people to show mercy, that in their time of need, they may receive mercy.

This is a thread on the Divine Mercy, a  devotion that has been approved by the RCC,
I don't see how this could have been approved if it were not doctrinally in line with the RCC, let alone be declared as a feast day (the Sunday after Easter).

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=9054.new#new

St. Faustina, practiced acesis, offered many sufferings, etc.  as a co-laborer with Christ to aid in the work of bringing God's mercy to a very sick humanity.  Nowhere in her writings does an occasion occur where a dying person is asked to do penance in payment for his sins.

Rather she continually marvels at the lavish mercy shown to the sinner in his last moments.







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« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2006, 07:13:44 PM »

Quote
Unless, of course, you subscribe to the belief that the Scriptures were written in English.

Must you sling irrelevant accusations and information in your posts?  That is more than a little insulting considering the time and effort I have invested into learning Greek so that I can comfortably function at a Greek parish. ÂÂ

Quote
As I said, the "greek idiom" is Scriptural, and therefore public revelation. On the other hand, the "Sacred Heart" was a private revelation to St. Margret Mary Alocoque. So the "greek idiom" carries the more weight of the two as far as being a revelation goes, whether you are Catholic or Orthodox.

You're missing the point that the Sacred Heart is a devotion and primarily a local thing - despite it's eventual ubiquity in Roman Catholicism. ÂÂ Devotions have long been in the vernacular, despite a non-vernacular liturgical worship. ÂÂ Hence, that is why I don't think a Greek idiom would have much mattered to those who initially began the Sacred Heart devotion.  The other reason it is irrelevant is because they are other, far more natural ways to express devotion to the vast mercy of Christ than "sacred guts" in the Greek language and culture. 
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« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2006, 07:25:19 PM »

ozgeorge,

There are many Churches in the States named Sacred Heart...including mine so please show a little class... I do not berate any Orthodox practices , Churches etc ... there are better descriptions and wordings that can get your point across...

PAX
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« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2006, 07:33:20 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9055.msg121193#msg121193 date=1147907624]
Must you sling irrelevant accusations and information in your posts?  That is more than a little insulting considering the time and effort I have invested into learning Greek so that I can comfortably function at a Greek parish. ÂÂ
[/quote]

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9055.msg121189#msg121189 date=1147906208]
the recent scandals in Greece were much more widespread and included bishops - but I don't see you questioning the Orthodoxy of the Greek Church.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â
[/quote]

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« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2006, 08:08:02 PM »

There are many Churches in the States named Sacred Heart...including mine...
Are you Polish Roman Catholic?
I ask this because of your icon of Our Lady of Czestochowa.
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« Reply #62 on: May 17, 2006, 09:53:52 PM »

Administrative hat on: More than one poster on this board at various times has slammed whole churches based on the actions of a select few.ÂÂ  I think we are all mature enough to know that that is not a good way to make logical points.

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« Reply #63 on: May 17, 2006, 09:55:33 PM »

Just as a fellow poster:  George, I'm curious.  You state that the Holy Mountain is multicultural, but I'm sure you've heard about the restrictions put on non-Greeks which have even led to evictions. These allegations are detailed in the book "Human Rights Violations on Mount Athos."  I'm just curious, how do you reconcile the two, or do you not believe the allegations?

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« Reply #64 on: May 17, 2006, 10:45:52 PM »

Carpatho Russian,

Actually I'm 50/50....Polish/Italian, both grandparents were from the old countries...

I'm a freebird of sorts...I respect other opinions when presented in a logical and respective way...usually...but once in a while a burr gets under the saddle.

We all have some kind of problems within the Churches be they East or West...I don't like getting caught in the crossfire and ducking those salvos of hate...I'm getting too old.

PAX
james

ps - About the avatar...I use it to honor a old compadre OCnet member, we shared it for a while, he indeed was a good friend to me.
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« Reply #65 on: May 17, 2006, 11:19:27 PM »

Re: Orthodox objections to the Sacred Heart Devotion
« Reply #48 on: Today at 04:35:56 PM »
Quote from: The young fogey on Today at 09:45:40 AM
But sin does spiritual and psychic damage, which is why both RCs and Orthodox have ascesis like fasting


The way we have understood the workings of suffering in our lives, is as an ascetic practice to repair spiritual damage,  accepting what providence allows, with a spirit of submission to the will of God and uniting ourselves with the sufferings of Christ. (And asking God to release actual graces to help us through our times of trial, in a spirit of gracious acceptance.)

And additionally we view sufferings as a means to bring our flesh into submission to the spirit  and as a fast offering to God on behalf of other souls, along with prayer for them that He would release graces to bring about conversion, healing, and reconciliation in their lives.

Quote from Thomas
The Roman Catholic teaching of Reparation is not an Eastern Orthodox belief taught by the Eastern Fathers of the Church. Once again its basis is found in the teachings of Blessed Agustine and not the Eastern Fathers.  Reparation is deemed as unnecessary as the death of Jesus resolved all need to make further reparation.


I understand that Augustine may have been the one to expound on this principle, but its basis is not  in Augustine, it is in the writings of Paul:

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, on behalf of His body which is the church,  Col. 1:24

I do not understand why the Eastern Fathers of the church did not expound on this, since it is a theme that is repeated over and over again in the letters as well as the Gospels.

But we cannot ignore the Scriptures, especially when experience has taught us that if we are interceding on behalf of any soul, there will be an accompanying suffering.  When someone tells me of a particular suffering they are going through, I always ask them,  "And who are you praying for right now that needs a greater abundance of God's grace?"

What we teach, is that Christ was in no way lacking in His afflictions,  but because of His desire that we should be co-laborers with Him, He most graciously left a gap for us to fill with our sufferings, as a proof of our love for Him, for what spouse does not pour herself out to help the one she loves in his work?

This does not compromise the fullness and completion of His work in the incarnation and passion,  nor does it excuse us from denying ourselves, picking up our cross, and following Him to Calvary, as a co-redemptive act, on behalf of souls.

For we are God's co-workers; you are God's field,...
10 I Cor 3:9

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death, Philippians 3:10

if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.  Romans 8:17

6 Now whether we be in tribulation, it is for your exhortation and salvation:
or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation:
or whether we be exhorted, it is for your exhortation and salvation,
which worketh the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer.
7 That our hope for you may be steadfast:
knowing that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so shall you be also of the consolation.  II Cor 1

13 But if you partake of the sufferings of Christ, rejoice that when his glory shall be revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. I Peter 4

St. Seraphim said that the goal of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit.

But to what end?  So that we can be about the business of God, laboring in His vineyard.

If the purpose of life is to know, to love and to serve God, and for His purposes after completing many years of seminary training, He allows you to fall into a debilitating illness, even though you were trained and ready to go to a foreign land and sacrifice yourself for Him, out of pure love, what are we to conclude?

Does your life count for nothing now that you cannot go on your mission?

Or Has God in His inscrutable plan made a different decision, asking you to forgo your own will and graciously accept this illness as providential, and to trust that He will derive from it the same benefits or perhaps even more, than if you were involved in active ministry in the mission field, even to martyrdom.

I do not believe that the sacrificial suffering of a soul for others is merely a concept to comfort a Catholic in their sufferings,  but the real and viable spiritual dynamic Paul talks about, that we are filling up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ on behalf of His body, and that it is constantly at work everyday in Orthodox and Catholic alike,  and that we have yet to discover how truly pervasive it is.

And I would hope that just because Augustine was perhaps the first to expound on this dynamic, and it has found footing in the RCC,  that if it has truth and merit, that would not stop the Orthodox from embracing it as Paul did.

So I take it that you all agree, on our understanding that fasting, ascesis, and suffering are all equally valid offerings to our Lord in this context, and that there is Scriptural prprecedenceor our suffering which is  filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, on behalf of His body which is the church.   And that this shows no shortcoming on the part of Christ, but rather His desire that we co-labor with Him.





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« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2006, 06:33:36 AM »

These allegations are detailed in the book "Human Rights Violations on Mount Athos."  I'm just curious, how do you reconcile the two, or do you not believe the allegations?
No, I do not believe the allegations. I have stayed at Zographou (Bulgarian), Panteleimon (Russian), Chilandari (Serbian) as well as three Greek monasteries. I do not doubt that monks have been removed from the Holy Mountain, but this is not because of their ethnic culture, but for ecclesiastical administrative reasons. No one can accuse the Oecumenical Patriarchate of discrimination along ethnic cultural lines when the latest monks that the Patriarchate attempted (and continues to attempt) to remove were Greek (Esphigmenou).
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« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2006, 06:45:43 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9055.msg121193#msg121193 date=1147907624]
You're missing the point that the Sacred Heart is a devotion and primarily a local thing[/quote]
If it's only a local devotion, then why was the Feast of the Sacred Heart instituted to be observed universally in the Roman Catholic Church 19 days after Pentecost?
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« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2006, 06:48:54 AM »

There are many Churches in the States named Sacred Heart...including mine so please show a little class... I do not berate any Orthodox practices , Churches etc ... there are better descriptions and wordings that can get your point across...
Jakub,
I'm sorry. I realise this is a senstive area, but the title of this thread is "Orthodox Objections to the Sacred Heart Devotion", and I didn't start the thread. I would have preferred the subject had not been brought up in the first place, but it has.
But saying that, I have absolutely no doubt about the sincerity of those who practice devotion to the Sacred Heart, and nor do I doubt that prayers directed to the "Sacred Heart" by those who practice this devotion will be heard by Christ.
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« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2006, 06:54:23 AM »

You know them I guess.
You guessed wrong.  Wink
I'm sorry for having a go at the Romanian Church. I was wrong to do so, please forgive me.
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« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2006, 08:15:36 AM »

No, I do not believe the allegations. I have stayed at Zographou (Bulgarian), Panteleimon (Russian), Chilandari (Serbian) as well as three Greek monasteries. I do not doubt that monks have been removed from the Holy Mountain, but this is not because of their ethnic culture, but for ecclesiastical administrative reasons. No one can accuse the Oecumenical Patriarchate of discrimination along ethnic cultural lines when the latest monks that the Patriarchate attempted (and continues to attempt) to remove were Greek (Esphigmenou).

I don't think your analogy works.  The Patriarchate could theoretically be ethnically discriminatory against non-Greeks and at the same time be anti-Esphigmenou because of its "schismatic tendencies."  I don't know who to believe really: what I see is you saying you have been to Mt Athos and have not experienced any discrimination (of course, you are Greek so that may be part of it) and others who went there and experienced discrimation at some of the Greek monasteries.  I guess I'll just have to go myself and find out.  I wonder though, do you think the author of that book was just lying, or what?

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« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2006, 09:00:14 AM »

I don't think your analogy works.  The Patriarchate could theoretically be ethnically discriminatory against non-Greeks and at the same time be anti-Esphigmenou because of its "schismatic tendencies."  I don't know who to believe really: what I see is you saying you have been to Mt Athos and have not experienced any discrimination (of course, you are Greek so that may be part of it) and others who went there and experienced discrimation at some of the Greek monasteries.  I guess I'll just have to go myself and find out.  I wonder though, do you think the author of that book was just lying, or what?
I'm not going to accuse anyone of "lying", because that means that they consciously know that what they are saying is untrue, and I have no access to other people's consciousness. I find the suggestion that the Patriarchate may be discriminatory against greeks as well to be quite "interesting", so who does the Patriarchate want to remain on the Holy Mountain- the wild boars? Go and see for yourself. I turned up at Zographou after becoming lost, and they welcomed me and, quite literally, saved my life, and I was staying while a german man was staying who (unlike me) had applied for permission to stay, and yet he had to remain in the Narthex while I was admitted to the Nave during Services- not because he was German, but because he wasn't Orthodox. I stayed at Iveron while a Nigerian monk was staying, and met Fr. Aidrian who was a British convert and who carved the beautiful Icon Stand for the Portaitissa Icon (the protecting Icon of the Holy Mountain), and Fr. Stephen who is Greman and chanted the Akathist to the Portaitissa in Koine with a German accent at Compline which sounded beautiful. I saw no discrimination on ethnic basis there. Nor at Dionysiou, where there I met an Albanian monk among other ethnicities, nor at Stavronikita where I had the same experience.
I can see how it may be possible to come to erroneous conclusions about "discrimination". For example, Orthodox men from Australia will tend to go on pilgrimage to Stavronikita or Iveron, and many of the monks tend to be Greek-Australian. The reason for this is because these two monasteries sent Fathers (such as Elder Paisios) to Australia every year to hear Confession and give Spiritual Guidance. It was natural that their Spiritual Children would gravitate towards the monasteries which their Fathers came from, and in this case, the Spiritual Children were Greek-Australian. The result is that if a Greek-Australian will become an Athonite monk, he will tend to go to Iveron or Stavronikita. But this isn't "discrimination" any more than an Italian moving to the "Italian Quarter" of a cosmopolitan city is "discrimination".
No matter what, there will always be critics of everything, and most of the time I think they are accusing others of what they are guilty of themselves. "To the pure, all things are pure", but to a heart full of ethnic discrimination, all things are racist, and it's easier to accuse others rather than ourselves. Go to Athos, and see for yourself.
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« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2006, 09:23:25 AM »

Quote
Go to Athos, and see for yourself.

I am hoping that that will be a reality at some point.  And I do appreciate your support for the monastery of Esphigmenou.

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« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2006, 09:28:27 PM »

I think the issue with ethnic minorities on the Holy Mountain is more complex than the booklet that Anastasios mentioned makes it out to be.  I also find it more than a little silly that some of those in question will cite every relevant EU, UN or other international law to make their case when I highly doubt they'd do the same for ethnic and religious minorities in their homelands.  I don't think the Patriarchate wants to eradicate the non-Greek presence on the Holy Mountain, either.  The more visible policy is ghettoizing minorities and keeping them from positions of power.  I've been told by monks from several different monasteries that the Patriarchate has a quota system and demands that a certain percentage of monks at the Greek monasteries be Greek (something in the neighborhood of no more than 20% non-Greeks is preffered) - but there are ways to circumvent this.  Apparently it is very difficult for a non-Bulgarian to become a monk at Zographou, a non-Serb at Hilandar etc.  In the case of the Romanians, who don't have a monastery (but a few sketes), I highly doubt they will ever have their own monastery.  In a certain sense, I don't see anything wrong with this.  It is entirely voluntary to become on monk on the Holy Mountain (not to mention that there are great monasteries elsewhere), so if someone doesn't like the current administration - DON'T BECOME A MONK THERE! 

From my own experience dealing with typical monks and lay pilgrims, there is (I think) some unhealthy bits of nationalism.  It's rather ridiculous that monastery guesthouses had little pamplets about "the Macedonian name issue" - as if whether a republic calling itself Macedonia matters at all for the spiritual life.  Surprisingly often I heard from (Greek) monks, "We almost lost Athos to the Russians, but we got it back and will never lose it again."  In the long line of Greek conspiracies it also very popular to alledge that Tsar Nikolai II was sending so many Russians to become monks so that he could turn Athos into a giant Russian naval base - apparently there is a vast underground network connecting St. Panteleimon's, St. Andrew's and Prophet Elias's!  It was typical for some subtle hostility to be shown to German tourists (which is kind of understandable, the Germans are just weird with their giant walking sticks), but what was distressing to me was there was definite tension whenever large groups of Slavs came to certain monasteries.  Also to be remembered, there are 20 monasteries and many more sketes - each has its own character and each monk has his own character, there is no one "Athonite."  At Vatopaidi (mostly Cypriot) or Karakallou (mostly Greek, but with a good number of non-Greeks) I experience nor heard of anything negative, for instance.  There are other places that I will never return to, it was made abundantly clear to me that xenoi are not welcomed.  I'd also add that in many cases of people that do encounter problems, they are partly to blaim i.e they don't know a word of Greek and are very arrogant about that.

As for official policies and their aftermath:  of the three famous and large Russian dwellings on Athos, only one retains a Russian brotherhood.  Had the Patriarchate showed some patience in dealing with the skete of the Prophet Elias, it is likely the monks there would now be preparing to commorate the Patriarch as the ROCOR is normalizing its relations with Moscow - instead much animosity has been raised and most of the monks in question are at the schismatic (from the POV of the Patriarchate) monastery in Fili.  More interesting, is the popular attitude taken concerning this, most of the monks I spoke to on the issue had the attitude that is was "just Russians."  Whereas they were very quick to come to the defense of Esfigmenou (although this was not universal, as some actually favored the eviction of Esfigmenou's brotherhood).  I think the witness of the 20th century has shown that, when left to its own Old Calendarism has lost steam - so why harass them now when it only serves to harden them in their position?       
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« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2006, 12:33:32 PM »

In the Latin Church, the Sacred Heart is a Solemnity, has a Mass and an Office, parishes are named after it but the revelation itself is still considered private and not binding on anyone.ÂÂ  The devotion to the Sacred Heart actually predates St. Margret Mary by many centuries and was first promoted by the Franciscans and other Mendicant Orders, and later promoted by the Jesuits. It was used especially to refute the Jansenists.ÂÂ  We Greek Catholics have a beautiful Moleben and Akathist to the Sacred Heart.  It was once very popular but does not see much use anymore.  (Yes it is a Latinization of sorts but is still beautiful)  The Ukrainian Catholics are, I believe, the only Greek Catholics that have retained this Feast, but have replaced the title Sacred Heart with that of Lover of Mankind.  Concerning current use of the title and devotion perhaps a few words from the current Pope of Rome are in order:

23-May-2006 -- Vatican Information Service  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

SACRED HEART OF JESUS, MYSTERY OF GOD'S LOVE

VATICAN CITY, MAY 23, 2006 (VIS) - Made public today was a Letter from Benedict XVI to Fr. Peter-Hans Kolvenbach S.J., superior general of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits), for the 50th anniversary of Pope Pius XII's Encyclical "Haurietis aquas" on devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.


Highlighting the fact that the Jesuits "have always been very active in promoting this fundamental form of devotion," the Pope writes: "Fifty years on, Christians still have the ever present task of continuing to deepen their relationship with the Heart of Jesus so as to revive, within themselves, faith in God's salvific love."


"The pierced side of the Redeemer, " the Letter says, "is the source from which ... we must draw in order to achieve a true knowledge of Jesus, ... understand what it means to know the love of God in Jesus Christ, experience it fixing our gaze on Him, live completely on that experience of His love, and bear witness of it to others."


"This mystery of God's love for us," Pope Benedict continues, "not only constitutes the content of veneration and devotion for the Heart of Jesus, it is, in the same way, the content of all true Christian spirituality and devotion. ... In fact, being Christian is only possible with our gaze fixed on the cross of our Redeemer."


"The deepest significance of this veneration for the love of God appears only when we give closer consideration to its contribution, not only to knowledge, but also and above all to the personal experience of that love in faithful dedication and service."


"Faith, understood as the fruit of the experience of God's love, is a grace, a gift of God. ... Whoever accepts God's love within himself, is formed by it. The experience of God's love is lived by man as a 'call' to which he must respond. ... The gifts received from [Jesus'] open side, from which 'blood and water' flowed, ensure that our lives become for others a source from which 'shall flow rivers of living water.' The experience of love we gain through veneration for the pierced side of the Redeemer, safeguards us from the risk of closing in on ourselves, and makes us open to a life lived for others."


"The response to the commandment of love is made possible only by the experience that this love was first given us by God. The veneration of the love made manifest in the mystery of the Cross, re-presented in each Eucharistic celebration, is, then, the foundation that enables us to become individuals capable of love and of giving ourselves. ... This openness to the will of God, however, must be constantly renewed. 'Love is never finished and complete'."


The Holy Father concludes his letter: "Gazing at the side pierced by the lance, where shines God's boundless will for salvation, cannot then be considered as a passing form of veneration or devotion. The adoration of God's love, which found historical-devotional expression in the symbol of the pierced heart, remains irreplaceable for a living relationship with God."

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« Reply #75 on: May 24, 2006, 12:48:29 AM »

I"The pierced side of the Redeemer, " the Letter says, "is the source from which ... we must draw in order to achieve a true knowledge of Jesus, ... understand what it means to know the love of God in Jesus Christ, experience it fixing our gaze on Him, live completely on that experience of His love, and bear witness of it to others."

"This mystery of God's love for us," Pope Benedict continues, "not only constitutes the content of veneration and devotion for the Heart of Jesus, it is, in the same way, the content of all true Christian spirituality and devotion. ... In fact, being Christian is only possible with our gaze fixed on the cross of our Redeemer."

"Faith, understood as the fruit of the experience of God's love, is a grace, a gift of God. ... Whoever accepts God's love within himself, is formed by it. The gifts received from [Jesus'] open side, from which 'blood and water' flowed, ensure that our lives become for others a source from which 'shall flow rivers of living water.' The experience of love we gain through veneration for the pierced side of the Redeemer, safeguards us from the risk of closing in on ourselves, and makes us open to a life lived for others."

The Holy Father concludes his letter: "Gazing at the side pierced by the lance, where shines God's boundless will for salvation, cannot then be considered as a passing form of veneration or devotion. The adoration of God's love, which found historical-devotional expression in the symbol of the pierced heart, remains irreplaceable for a living relationship with God."

Thank you Deacon Lance.

Do any of my Orthodox brothers and sisters have an objection to this theology?

It seems like a great deal of confusion surrounds Catholic beliefs and devotions.  Many misunderstandings have been voiced on this forum, and they are objections I have heard before from other Orthodox, yet when you dissect them, and get to the very heart of the issue, these objections are found to be without substance.

Satan is the author of division and confusion and I believe he has accomplished much in the way of creating enmities between East and West.   Unnecessary enmities, for while we may not be drawn to a particular devotion, we can at least acknowledge that others may have a legitimate reason for this devotion, and treat them with honor and respect, because they love God and are seeking to be perfected by Him in the way He has drawn them to Himself.

I really appreciate this response, it shows a great deal of respect and gentleness for the thread that was begun on the Sacred Heart. When I put Orthodox Catholic Forum on my web site, it was this kind of dialogue I was hoping that others would find. As well as Thomas' beautiful expositions of the Orthodox Faith. 

I believe that if both sides  understand each other from the grassroots up, showing the respect that is befitting of Christians,  it will eventually affect the hierarchs and inspire them to embrace oneanother in a spirit of respect, with out compromise of practice. 
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« Reply #76 on: May 24, 2006, 01:36:02 AM »

Mount Athos again...
Here are the Athonite monasteries that were built by various princes of Wallachia and Moldova: Dochiariou, Dyonissiou, Koutloumoussiou and Karakalou.
Moreover, various Romanian princes made gifts to many other monasteries of Athos. Until 1860 there still were many monasteries in Wallachia and Moldova "dedicated" (I don't know the exact English term for the Romanian "inchinate") to certain Athonite monasteries, or even to St. Catherine Monastery of Mount Sinai. That meant that the revenues of those monasteries and of their respective domains went to Athos.
So, given the historical contribution the Romanians had to the Holy Mountain, it would only be a natural thing that they had their own MONASTERY there.
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« Reply #77 on: May 24, 2006, 01:43:24 AM »

Mount Athos again...
Here are the Athonite monasteries that were built by various princes of Wallachia and Moldova: Dochiariou, Dyonissiou, Koutloumoussiou and Karakalou.
So, given the historical contribution the Romanians had to the Holy Mountain, it would only be a natural thing that they had their own MONASTERY there.

This is a fascinating topic for anyone interested in the history and politics of Mt. Athos and other monasteries. 

It's a shame that no one will ever find it here on this thread.  Perhaps the moderator could create a special thread just to accommodate it, and make it available to visitors that have no interest in the Sacred Heart, but are quite interested in Mt. Athos and monastic traditions...
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« Reply #78 on: May 24, 2006, 02:52:32 AM »

Personally, I find the thread topic interesting, but if you wanted to make another Athos topic, the faith bord probably would be a good one.  Also, you can find good resources in searching for the Athos' websites and the Monachos network.  Google will tell you both.

Deacon Lance,
That's really interesting, I didn't know that.  Although, I can see the reason of replacing the feat of the Sacred Heart of Christ with the Love of Mankind, it seems to miss the point in both rites.  What exactly is the teachings and being celebrated in the Greek festival?

Daniel
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« Reply #79 on: May 24, 2006, 02:04:55 PM »

I also found it odd to devote one's prayers to a portion of Jesus.

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace montalban,

Upon reflection on this topic I am lead to ask do you find it odd to be considered part of His Body as a member of His Church? In doing the Will of God, do you find it odd considering yourself His Hands, His Mouth, His Feet etc? Why is reflection on the very foundation of His Love (i.e. His Heart) something to be considered odd? I'm very curious.
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« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2006, 04:21:13 PM »

Upon reflection on this topic I am lead to ask do you find it odd to be considered part of His Body as a member of His Church? In doing the Will of God, do you find it odd considering yourself His Hands, His Mouth, His Feet etc? Why is reflection on the very foundation of His Love (i.e. His Heart) something to be considered odd? I'm very curious.
One answer I would give is that the xenophobic spirit that is very common to our fallen nature has infected even many Orthodox Christians.  IMHO, much of what passes for defense of the Orthodox Faith against heresies is really nothing more than defense of our customs against anything different.  This is sad.  :'(

Personally, I don't practice such RC devotions as those to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the Immaculate Heart of Mary, or the Rosary.  This is not because I have any fundamental objections to the theologies or doctrines they represent, for I really don't know these devotions all that well.  All I know is that they are not part of the Orthodox prayer tradition--this doesn't mark the devotions as necessarily unorthodox and bad--so I've never really been exposed to them, nor do I really see the need to do anything more than respect the practices from afar.  As much as I may respect these RC practices, I don't think them necessary for cultivating an Orthodox spirituality.
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« Reply #81 on: May 24, 2006, 08:22:43 PM »

One answer I would give is that the xenophobic spirit that is very common to our fallen nature has infected even many Orthodox Christians.ÂÂ  IMHO, much of what passes for defense of the Orthodox Faith against heresies is really nothing more than defense of our customs against anything different.ÂÂ  This is sad.ÂÂ  :'(

Personally, I don't practice such RC devotions as those to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the Immaculate Heart of Mary, or the Rosary.ÂÂ  This is not because I have any fundamental objections to the theologies or doctrines they represent, for I really don't know these devotions all that well.ÂÂ  All I know is that they are not part of the Orthodox prayer tradition--this doesn't mark the devotions as necessarily unorthodox and bad--so I've never really been exposed to them, nor do I really see the need to do anything more than respect the practices from afar.ÂÂ  As much as I may respect these RC practices, I don't think them necessary for cultivating an Orthodox spirituality.

In nomine Iesu I offer you continued peace my Orthodox Brother PeterTheAleut,

Absolutely. In Catholicism we recognize such as 'Acts of Piety' borne out of our universal faith through cultural filters. Such 'cultural filters' do not, in the Catholic Opinion, determine their orthodoxy but only the particular cultural pieties in which such orthodox faith is expressed. So in Catholicism each culture which embraces Christ can and will express that faith uniquely and with their own Acts of Piety.

This, of course, is a refreshing turn of events from our past attempts at latinizing and I am personally pleased that we have matured to the point to recognize this.

Peace and God Bless.
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« Reply #82 on: May 24, 2006, 11:51:49 PM »

IMHO, much of what passes for defense of the Orthodox Faith against heresies is really nothing more than defense of our customs against anything different.  This is sad.  :'(
 All I know is that they are not part of the Orthodox prayer tradition--this doesn't mark the devotions as necessarily unorthodox and bad--so I've never really been exposed to them, nor do I really see the need to do anything more than respect the practices from afar.  As much as I may respect these RC practices, I don't think them necessary for cultivating an Orthodox spirituality.

What you have said here is so very encouraging.

This is my prayer and my hope, that we can simply respect that which is different in one another's cultures.

What do you believe would have to happen, in order for more Orthodox to come to this peaceful conclusion?
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« Reply #83 on: June 06, 2006, 01:28:17 PM »

Hi,
I’m new to the forum. My English is not so good, so please don’t be too critical about my writing errors and so on.

According to the Orthodox tradition the man’s heart symbolize the man’s soul. For example the saint fathers spoke often about purification of our heart that is the same as purification of our soul.

Quote
“But it seems to me that the Sacred Heart is merely a symbol for the attribute of the Love of God.”
Is a danger there that somebody, reading the work of the saints, decides that worshipping the heart of Christ he worships merely His soul? And the last is an error about the Faith because His two natures can’t be split.
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« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2006, 04:26:23 PM »

One answer I would give is that the xenophobic spirit that is very common to our fallen nature has infected even many Orthodox Christians.  IMHO, much of what passes for defense of the Orthodox Faith against heresies is really nothing more than defense of our customs against anything different.  This is sad.  :'(

Personally, I don't practice such RC devotions as those to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the Immaculate Heart of Mary, or the Rosary.  This is not because I have any fundamental objections to the theologies or doctrines they represent, for I really don't know these devotions all that well.  All I know is that they are not part of the Orthodox prayer tradition--this doesn't mark the devotions as necessarily unorthodox and bad--so I've never really been exposed to them, nor do I really see the need to do anything more than respect the practices from afar.  As much as I may respect these RC practices, I don't think them necessary for cultivating an Orthodox spirituality.

I have to agree, in that I don't think there should be a theological objection to this devotions or to many Catholic devotions. Of course, no one need practice them, but I just don't think this is something that should keep the east and west apart.

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« Reply #85 on: June 14, 2006, 06:43:23 AM »

Quote from: PeterTheAleut
One answer I would give is that the xenophobic spirit that is very common to our fallen nature has infected even many Orthodox Christians.  IMHO, much of what passes for defense of the Orthodox Faith against heresies is really nothing more than defense of our customs against anything different.  This is sad.  :'(

Personally, I don't practice such RC devotions as those to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, the Immaculate Heart of Mary, or the Rosary.  This is not because I have any fundamental objections to the theologies or doctrines they represent, for I really don't know these devotions all that well.  All I know is that they are not part of the Orthodox prayer tradition--this doesn't mark the devotions as necessarily unorthodox and bad--so I've never really been exposed to them, nor do I really see the need to do anything more than respect the practices from afar.  As much as I may respect these RC practices, I don't think them necessary for cultivating an Orthodox spirituality.

I have to agree, in that I don't think there should be a theological objection to this devotions or to many Catholic devotions. Of course, no one need practice them, but I just don't think this is something that should keep the east and west apart.

Well put by both of you. Or as I wrote a while back about the Rosary, it's great but if you're Byzantine Rite with all those canons and akathists to choose from you don't need it!
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« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2006, 10:42:17 AM »

Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this thread.  I have never had an understanding of the 'Sacred Heart' and now I do.  We so often get into misunderstandings because we are trying to define some practice from the outside looking in.  Let those inside make the definition and those outside try to understand.  I know in my protestant days, I accepted definitions of what R.C. or Orthodox were doing and now know that they were incorrect.  Thanks for the reasonable and tempered contributions.
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« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2006, 07:38:05 PM »

  We so often get into misunderstandings because we are trying to define some practice from the outside looking in.  Let those inside make the definition and those outside try to understand.  I know in my protestant days, I accepted definitions of what R.C. or Orthodox were doing and now know that they were incorrect. 

Thank you for your perspective,  I agree that so many times we operate under the wrong impressions.    I am very thankful for all I am learning on this forum.   It certainly is a catalyst for prayer, to repair the breach.  Not only in the Church, but in the hearts of those who are embittered or injured.

May God grant us all peace and botherly love.

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Ecce quam bonum. The happiness of brotherly love and concord.

1 Behold how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell in unity. 2 Like the precious ointment on the head, that ran down upon the beard, the beard of Aaron, Which ran down to the skirt of his garment: 3 As the dew of Hermon, which descendeth upon mount Sion. For there the Lord hath commandeth blessing, and life for evermore.
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« Reply #88 on: January 12, 2007, 08:55:18 PM »

Quote
devotion to the Sacred Heart actually predates St. Margret Mary by many centuries and was first promoted by the Franciscans and other Mendicant Orders, and later promoted by the Jesuits.

Besides this devotion's roots in Patristic exegesis (S. Austin springs immediately to mind in his treatment of the pierced side of Christ whence flowed the two great Sacraments of His Church, the New Eve), it finds precedent in the life & revelations of S. Gertrude the Great, Herald of Divine Love.  My understanding is that it was first to her that the Sacred Heart devotion was revealed as a specific devotion in se, but I would not be surprised should it be proven to have been a concrete devotion before even then.  Some say it is alluded to in the writings of S. Bernard.  In any event & as has been rightly pointed out, the devotion did not spring out of nowhere in the XVIIth Century. 

Quote
We even had in our church in Romania (Transylvania) images of "The Sacred Heart of Jesus", but both the priest or the people were unaware of their meaning and they just hang on the walls of the church.

Would anyone happen to know the location of any Orthodox Icons of the Sacred Heart on the Internet?

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As concerns the percieved inpropriety of worshipping a specific part of Christ's Human Form, the same objections could be raised against the office of Orthros wherein the Wounds of Our Lord are worshipped, or against the spirituality of S. Demetrius of Rostov who I believe composed some sort of devotion to the Five Wounds. 
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« Reply #89 on: January 12, 2007, 09:56:57 PM »

Would anyone happen to know the location of any Orthodox Icons of the Sacred Heart on the Internet
There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.
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« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2007, 10:05:44 PM »

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There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.
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« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2007, 10:11:53 PM »

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It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.

I have never seens a Byzantinized rendition of the Sacred Heart.  Each time that I have seen the Sacred Heart in an Orthodox Church it was been the standard Latin depiction. 

A few devotional crossovers from the border regions of the Theodosian line hardly constitute an established and legitimate Orthodox custom. 
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« Reply #92 on: January 12, 2007, 10:11:53 PM »

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There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.

Fwiw, I have an icon which is, I believe, a sacred heart style icon. A priest was doing a blessing in our house a couple years ago and looked at this icon, and I asked him about it. He was a former teacher at Jordanville if I remember correctly, and he said that while it was uncommon, there was nothing unorthodox about it. Perhaps it is like a holy trinity style icon, where there are specific traditions and even canons against it, but it still is accepted by some anyway?
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« Reply #93 on: January 12, 2007, 10:29:45 PM »

You could even find "The Sacred Heart of Mary" Wink
See the left corner of the altar.
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« Reply #94 on: January 12, 2007, 10:32:39 PM »

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.
Well, no. I think you'll find that no Orthodox Iconographer has depicted what they deem to be a "legitimate" Icon of the Sacred Heart. I think you'll find that the Romanian Church  et al are using non-Orthodox art as Icons (see photo posted by augustin717).
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« Reply #95 on: January 12, 2007, 10:36:07 PM »

Here is a Sacred Heart icon in a sort of Orthodox style:

http://www.monasteryicons.com/monasteryicons/Item_Sacred-Heart_548_ps_srm.html

I think this monastery is Byzantine Catholic.  As  I said in my reply early on in this thread, such icons are not allowed at my church.  I have heard them accused of being Nestorian, although I am not too sure how that works out.
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« Reply #96 on: January 12, 2007, 10:36:22 PM »

And there are a number of other uncanonical things in the photo posted by augustine717. There should be no flowers on the altar. According to the Canons, the only things which can be offered on the altar are bread, wine, water, incense, grapes and wheat.
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« Reply #97 on: January 12, 2007, 10:40:22 PM »

I don't think that those flowers are meant to be offered in any way.
Canonical, uncanonical that's the way we are: the Austro-Hungarian legacy.
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« Reply #98 on: January 13, 2007, 10:11:10 PM »

We would even do "The Way of the Cross" back home, on certain occasions (e.g. Good Friday):
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_29.04.2005_03.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_21.04.2006_04.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_25.04.2003_09.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_25.04.2003_10.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_14.08.2006_07.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_21.04.2006_08.jpg
http://www.manastireabodrog.ro/p_09.04.2004_05.jpg
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« Reply #99 on: January 13, 2007, 11:37:39 PM »

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.

I've seen Orthodox churches around Cluj where the iconostasis has one or two of those gimmicky pictures that change depending on the angle one views them from: look it's the Virgin Mary praying and if I just walk over here it's her being crowned in heaven. The tacky decorations of Transylvanian churches should not be seen as the standard of Orthodox iconographical practise.
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« Reply #100 on: January 14, 2007, 02:18:09 AM »

I've seen a couple of those tacky and also plain western religious art in russian churches hanging on walls unassumingly. Also, I've noticed that the Coptic churches I've visited had tons of these western art pieces including the Sacred Hearts and rosaries being sold in bookstores. Whenever I've asked, it seemd that they'd rather have western art than sell or even display byzantine art for some reason...
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« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2007, 02:51:34 PM »

Historically, Orthodox Churches have at times had to resort to the use of Western Art due to the  absence of access to Orthodox Icons.  There are also Western Devotion pictures that have been adjusted to Icon format  by the Roman Catholic Church for use in their eastern Rites. Of interest the Sacred Heart image on the altar seems to have a clock on the paintings left side ( rights side as you look at it),

As for an Iconic painting, I remember seeing one such  painted at the request of Pope John Paul II, It is a version of the Image of the Divine Mercy. [For those of you who do not know the story of the Divine Mercy Image, it was a private revelation by Saint Mary Faustina Kowalska in which she states that "the Lord Jesus clothed in a white garment. One hand was raised in blessing, the other was touching the garment at the breast. From the opening of the garment at the breast there came forth two large rays, one red and the other pale. In silence I gazed intently at the Lord; my soul was overwhelmed with fear, but also with great joy. After a while Jesus said to me, 'paint an image according to the pattern you see, with the inscription: Jesus, I trust in You.'] The icon of this is a icon of a standing Lord Jesus clothed in a white garment. One hand was raised in blessing, the other was touching the garment at the breast with two rays coming from his breast one red and the other white. Its inscription in Greek says "Jesus, I trust in You.'"

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« Reply #102 on: November 27, 2007, 10:06:55 AM »

BTTT
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« Reply #103 on: November 27, 2007, 11:43:29 AM »

Here is a Sacred Heart icon in a sort of Orthodox style:

http://www.monasteryicons.com/monasteryicons/Item_Sacred-Heart_548_ps_srm.html

I think this monastery is Byzantine Catholic.  As  I said in my reply early on in this thread, such icons are not allowed at my church.  I have heard them accused of being Nestorian, although I am not too sure how that works out.

Monastery Icons is not Byzantine Catholic (Novus Ordo perhaps, but not Byz. Cath.  Wink )  Although not news to some, you should be aware that Monastery Icons are themselves owned and operated by a Hindu Ashram.

To bring together the known information on Monastery Icons I present the following:

1) An Orthodox commentary on the history/origins of Monastery Icons http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/monasteryicons.aspx

2) Due to the negative publicity generated by the above commentary, Monastery Icons has sought to evade the bad press using a corporate slight of hand, this being their "acquisition" by the Sacred Arts Foundation - this is noted on Monastery Icons website http://www.monasteryicons.com/info/index.hzml

3) When questioned about their ties to the previous owners http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/lofiv...hp/t46309.html (quote from "thedude" towards the bottom of the webpage), they now attempt to disavow any connection:

Quote
Dear Friend,

Thank you for contacting us. About ten years ago competitors and enemies of Monastery Icons perpetrated the spurious information cited in Fr. Nelson¹s letter, in an attempt to compromise the business of Monastery Icons. Fortunately the sacred arts ministry of Monastery Icons was not harmed by this attempt, and most people recognize the letter for what it is: a bizarre conglomeration of lies, fantasy, and misinformation.

Further, Sacred Arts Foundation acquired the Monastery Icons sacred art collection three years ago. The Monastery no longer manufactures the icons nor does it own the Monastery Icons business. The icons from Monastery Icons are not blessed with any rituals, “occult” or otherwise. Thank you again for your interest. If you have any further questions or concerns please do not hesitate to contact us.

Sincerely
Richard

Monastery Icons
Customer Service
1-800-729-4952

Monasteryicons.com
 

4) When one digs further, one finds out that the Sacred Arts Foundation is incorporated in Missouri (thank you Irish Melkite for the following information) http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthr...page/0/fpart/2 :

Quote
2005 Annual Report - Sacred Arts Foundation - State of Missouri - Secretary of State's Office filing shows that the principal place of business is 1482 Rango Way, Borrego Springs, CA. The Foundation has only a registered agent in MO, which is a great place to incorporate, as the fees are dirt-cheap.

The officers include William Burke - the former Abbott of the infamous Gnostic Orthodox Monastery.

1482 Rango Way, Borrego Springs, CA, btw, is the locale of Atma Jyoti Ashram , "a spiritual institution devoted to the practice and teaching of Sanatana Dharma, the Eternal Religion, as found in the Upanishads, the Bhagavad Gita, and the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali." This is Abbott Burke's latest religious venture.

It would appear that one corporate entity, as it was being phased out, sold its assets to the new corporate venture - essentially mirrors of one another in regard to governance, differing chiefly in ecclesiology. 

The links for the above information are: https://www.sos.mo.gov/BusinessEntit...ngs.asp?705141 and http://www.atmajyoti.org/ashram.asp

5) As Irish Melkite has pointed out - note that the addresses of both the Hindu Ashram and the Corporate Headquarters of the Sacred Arts Foundation, current owners of Monastery Icons are the SAME: 1482 Rango Way , Borrego Springs, CA 92004

http://www.atmajyoti.org/contact1.asp and http://www.sos.mo.gov/imaging/13302579.pdf

Misc.: It is interesting to note from the Missouri incorporation link ( http://www.sos.mo.gov/imaging/15868254.pdf ) that the Sacred Arts Foundation failed to file an annual report last year in Missouri and was therefore dissolved as a corporation in that state at the end of 2006 - I'm willing to bet they've incorporated elsewhere.
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« Reply #104 on: August 23, 2011, 11:06:56 PM »

I understand that there is an objection to the Sacred Heart devotion practiced by Catholics.

I would like to know what in particular are the objections.

Thank you.

Mother Anastasia,

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« Reply #105 on: August 25, 2011, 03:51:55 PM »

Quote
There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.

Yes, but you have to look at the history of that particular village in Transylvannia.  For example, was the church formerly a Romanian catholic Church and the picture is a left-over from that period?
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« Reply #106 on: August 25, 2011, 03:58:14 PM »

Quote
There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.

Yes, but you have to look at the history of that particular village in Transylvannia.  For example, was the church formerly a Romanian catholic Church and the picture is a left-over from that period?
Although some Eastern Catholics may have objections to the Sacred Heart imagery, nevertheless, I did see a Sacred Heart Icon in a Romanian Eastern Catholic Church.
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« Reply #107 on: August 25, 2011, 06:02:10 PM »

I just checked the website of Monastery Icons, and it says they're located in Ohio, not California.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #108 on: August 25, 2011, 07:22:53 PM »

I just checked the website of Monastery Icons, and it says they're located in Ohio, not California.  Roll Eyes

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You talking about now, or four years ago, where Herekleides (where are u?) posted? And, at that time, according to Herekleides they acknowledged on their website their parent company, the Sacred Arts Foundation, which was what was located in CA.
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« Reply #109 on: August 25, 2011, 10:44:08 PM »

I just checked the website of Monastery Icons, and it says they're located in Ohio, not California.  Roll Eyes

Another urban legend of the Netodox shot down.  Tongue



You should have also checked the date on the message from which you took your information.  It was four years ago.   If you read the history of this group they pull up roots and move every now and then.

Another careless reader shot down Tongue
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« Reply #110 on: August 31, 2011, 01:42:38 PM »

Quote
There are none. Icons of the Sacred Heart are not considered Orthodox. There are however Roman Catholic Icons of the Sacred Heart.

It has been established that in a Transylvanian Orthodox Church there hangs an Icon of the Sacred Heart.  Whatever your judgment of the legitamacy of Sacred Heart devotion within your Orthodox tradition, the fact remains that Orthodox iconographers have written what they deem to be legitimate icons, & I was simply wondering whether any of those were viewable via the Internet.



Yes, but you have to look at the history of that particular village in Transylvannia.  For example, was the church formerly a Romanian catholic Church and the picture is a left-over from that period?
Although some Eastern Catholics may have objections to the Sacred Heart imagery, nevertheless, I did see a Sacred Heart Icon in a Romanian Eastern Catholic Church.

I am not surpirised, but no one has shown any proof of a Roman catholic picture of the Sacred heart in a church that is and always was an Orthodox Church. That is not a former Eastern Catholic Church that is now orthodox.
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« Reply #111 on: August 31, 2011, 02:15:42 PM »

we had a couple of sacred heart images in our church-not painted on wall, but lithographs- in a church that has never been greek-catholic; these were images donated by local people that were not aware that they weren't "orthodox". most icons we had back home, actually, in the houses of ordinary people-ours included- were cheap lithographs "made in italy".
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« Reply #112 on: August 31, 2011, 02:39:08 PM »

cheap lithographs "made in italy".
It's been that way since the 1800's, has it not?
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« Reply #113 on: August 31, 2011, 09:02:12 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit
You should have also checked the date on the message from which you took your information.  It was four years ago.   If you read the history of this group they pull up roots and move every now and then.

Another careless reader shot down Tongue

Not hardly. This is from their most recent catalog, which I got two days ago. Recent enough for you?:



Then again, I'm sure a post from years ago is more accurate.  Tongue

Yes, organizations and companies move sometimes. Just like, oh, Orthodox monasteries and churches have been known to do. That doesn't matter, I guess, because it's only bad if Roman Catholics do it.  Roll Eyes

If you don't like things from Monastery Icons, you'll have to come and remove them by hand from this church, which has plenty of them. I should know, I'm there every week.
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« Reply #114 on: August 31, 2011, 09:23:39 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit
You should have also checked the date on the message from which you took your information.  It was four years ago.   If you read the history of this group they pull up roots and move every now and then.

Another careless reader shot down Tongue

Not hardly. This is from their most recent catalog, which I got two days ago. Recent enough for you?:



Then again, I'm sure a post from years ago is more accurate.  Tongue

Yes, organizations and companies move sometimes. Just like, oh, Orthodox monasteries and churches have been known to do. That doesn't matter, I guess, because it's only bad if Roman Catholics do it.  Roll Eyes

If you don't like things from Monastery Icons, you'll have to come and remove them by hand from this church, which has plenty of them. I should know, I'm there every week.

Yes, they're in Ohio now, but the poster four years ago who posted that they were in California had no way of knowing that they would relocate. I don't see how anybody has been proved to be incorrect.
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« Reply #115 on: August 31, 2011, 09:25:42 PM »

Fair enough.
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« Reply #116 on: August 31, 2011, 09:29:57 PM »

If you don't like things from Monastery Icons, you'll have to come and remove them by hand from this church, which has plenty of them. I should know, I'm there every week.
What is the deal here? How can an Orthodox Church have these icons, if they are offensive to the Orthodox?
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« Reply #117 on: August 31, 2011, 09:31:47 PM »

My point was that they aren't necessarily offensive to all the Orthodox. Many of the icons sold by MI depict Orthodox saints. 
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« Reply #118 on: August 31, 2011, 09:35:19 PM »

My point was that they aren't necessarily offensive to all the Orthodox. Many of the icons sold by MI depict Orthodox saints. 
But sylistically, don't they have a slightly modern, slightly western taint to them, which would be out of place for those who demand a more traditional icon?
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« Reply #119 on: August 31, 2011, 09:37:08 PM »

Again, not necessarily. That's your opinion, and I can't quantify that.
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« Reply #120 on: August 31, 2011, 09:42:24 PM »

Quote from: Irish Hermit
You should have also checked the date on the message from which you took your information.  It was four years ago.   If you read the history of this group they pull up roots and move every now and then.

Another careless reader shot down Tongue

Not hardly. This is from their most recent catalog, which I got two days ago. Recent enough for you?:

No!  I got their catalogue just yesterday.  It came with one of the Celtic Home Shrines which I will be giving to my RC brother for his brthday.


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« Reply #121 on: September 19, 2011, 04:25:58 PM »

The outfit is Gnostic Orthodox and it is a creepy demonic group. So, Fr. Ambrose, if you love your brother you'll perform an exorcism over the "Celtic Home Shrine" before sending it on to your brother.

And even then, ... well, nuff said.
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« Reply #122 on: September 19, 2011, 04:31:23 PM »

An exorcism over...




?
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« Reply #123 on: September 19, 2011, 05:24:40 PM »

Absolutely. These are people who don't really believe in any one religion. They try to mix Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Hinduism, and other religions together into one. The enterprise is demonic and creepy, and their in-house-painted icons are just... wrong. Anyone can photocopy a real Orthodox icon, but to return to the original point--yes, exorcism required.
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