Author Topic: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church  (Read 6876 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline montalban

  • Now in colour
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2006, 07:28:28 AM »
While being used by Moslems, Allah indicates a different God.ÂÂ  Let's not be too harsh, though, against the name Allah since it is Arabic for "God" and we have plenty of Arabic-speaking Christians out there.

Νεκτάριος already (I think) introduced a better counter to this.

It's like the word "Democratic" means something to you, than it does to Germans of the former German Democratic Republic (aka DDR aka East Germany)
Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,203
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2006, 03:11:26 PM »
Νεκτάριος already (I think) introduced a better counter to this.

It's like the word "Democratic" means something to you, than it does to Germans of the former German Democratic Republic (aka DDR aka East Germany)

I'm not saying you can't villanize their use of the word; just don't villanize the word completely, i.e. out of context.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline montalban

  • Now in colour
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2006, 07:27:12 AM »
I'm not saying you can't villanize their use of the word; just don't villanize the word completely, i.e. out of context.

The 'conext' is what I'm dealing with. Moslems call their god 'al-lah'. Christians (of Arabic background) might use the same word. It's not the same God.
Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.

Offline Hadel

  • IN CHRIST
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 277
  • Jesus Christ Our Lord, King of Kings
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2006, 09:23:59 AM »
OK, as an Arab, I get insulted when you insult the Name "Allah" because I am an Orthodox Christian and when I say a prayer or a reference in Arabic I say "Allah" which means God in Arabic. God has different names to different languages in Greek, Spanish, German, English, Slavic, Russian, Hebrew, Chinese, and so on thus in Arabic we say "Allah." So please do not insult the word since to us Christian Arabs mean the the same as a Muslim "The One True God"

Yes, for us in Jordan, Muslims come to funerals, weddings and visit us Christians on our holidays so no shock for me here in Jordan. I have had Merry Christmas Gifts, Happy Easters and gee all from Muslims. Maybe you have to live among them to truly understand them.

Gee, would you allow a Jew to enter your Church? A Hindu? a Buddhist? When a human is in need we do not ask what colour or religion you are before we stop their bleeding, or do we? I think we all forgot what Christ taught us, remember when a Roman, a pagan believed in him before the people of Israel.... show love and kindness and then you might receive believers in the end. I think Mother Theresa, a Catholic, had the right idea, she spread the word of Christ thru charity and love and not hatred and scorn. However, show hatred and bloodshed; and shall you receive blood back, "Kill by the Sword, die by the sword."

I said my peace.
In Christ,
Hadel
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Offline pensateomnia

  • Bibliophylax
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,360
  • metron ariston
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2006, 09:31:14 AM »
I said my peace.

An unintended pun?  :D

As the saying goes: "A freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother."
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline Hadel

  • IN CHRIST
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 277
  • Jesus Christ Our Lord, King of Kings
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2006, 09:41:02 AM »
 ;) No, I always say what I mean ....  :D
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Offline francis-christopher

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 366
  • St. Francis pray for us!
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2006, 09:47:21 AM »
OK, as an Arab, I get insulted when you insult the Name "Allah" because I am an Orthodox Christian and when I say a prayer or a reference in Arabic I say "Allah" which means God in Arabic. God has different names to different languages in Greek, Spanish, German, English, Slavic, Russian, Hebrew, Chinese, and so on thus in Arabic we say "Allah." So please do not insult the word since to us Christian Arabs mean the the same as a Muslim "The One True God"

Yes, for us in Jordan, Muslims come to funerals, weddings and visit us Christians on our holidays so no shock for me here in Jordan. I have had Merry Christmas Gifts, Happy Easters and gee all from Muslims. Maybe you have to live among them to truly understand them.

Gee, would you allow a Jew to enter your Church? A Hindu? a Buddhist? When a human is in need we do not ask what colour or religion you are before we stop their bleeding, or do we? I think we all forgot what Christ taught us, remember when a Roman, a pagan believed in him before the people of Israel.... show love and kindness and then you might receive believers in the end. I think Mother Theresa, a Catholic, had the right idea, she spread the word of Christ thru charity and love and not hatred and scorn. However, show hatred and bloodshed; and shall you receive blood back, "Kill by the Sword, die by the sword."

I said my peace.
In Christ,
Hadel


In nomine Iesu I offer you peace Hadel,

God Bless you! Well said. Hear Hear!

Peace.
Francisce-Christophorus

Sancte Francisce, athleta Christi, ora pro nobis. Amen.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,382
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2006, 09:53:59 AM »
Hadel,
Let me explain why this may be an issue for other Orthodox Christians who lived among moslems.
Here is a recent photograph of the Church of Agia Sophia:


http://community.webshots.com/photo/469169606/1469189838056206750RHUsqy#

Again, the issue isn't muslims entering Churches or Churches providing sanctuary. The issue is muslims raising banners with their religious symbols in Churches.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 09:57:32 AM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline montalban

  • Now in colour
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2006, 10:40:04 AM »
OK, as an Arab, I get insulted when you insult the Name "Allah" because I am an Orthodox Christian and when I say a prayer or a reference in Arabic I say "Allah" which means God in Arabic.
Who has done this? (insulted the use of the word by Christians). My church is Antiochian (Arabic speaking). When the term Allah is used it is referring to the Christian God, becuase it's in the context of a Christian church.
God has different names to different languages in Greek, Spanish, German, English, Slavic, Russian, Hebrew, Chinese, and so on thus in Arabic we say "Allah." So please do not insult the word since to us Christian Arabs mean the the same as a Muslim "The One True God"
The "One True God" of Islam is not the same being that is the Christian God.
Gee, would you allow a Jew to enter your Church? A Hindu? a Buddhist?
All are welcome. What you seem to ignore is that in the case (see the OP) of this thread there's a church that's not a case of "A Catholic church being visited by Moslems" but "A Catholic Church being visited by Moslems AND being used as a mosque".

An analogy would be if you invited friends to stay at your house and they start sleeping with your wife. There's a limit to hospitality.
I said my peace.
In Christ,
Hadel

The problem is that you've misread some of the argument.
Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.

Offline montalban

  • Now in colour
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2006, 10:41:20 AM »
In nomine Iesu I offer you peace Hadel,

God Bless you! Well said. Hear Hear!

Peace.
You support your church being used as a mosque?
Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.

Offline montalban

  • Now in colour
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2006, 10:42:35 AM »
Hadel,
Let me explain why this may be an issue for other Orthodox Christians who lived among moslems.
Here is a recent photograph of the Church of Agia Sophia:


http://community.webshots.com/photo/469169606/1469189838056206750RHUsqy#

Again, the issue isn't muslims entering Churches or Churches providing sanctuary. The issue is muslims raising banners with their religious symbols in Churches.

The picture took a while for my old computer* to load up, but it's worth it; a very good example

*- I feel it's so old, it's could well be steam-powered
Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.

Offline Hadel

  • IN CHRIST
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 277
  • Jesus Christ Our Lord, King of Kings
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2006, 03:07:18 AM »
Hadel,
Let me explain why this may be an issue for other Orthodox Christians who lived among moslems.
Here is a recent photograph of the Church of Agia Sophia:


http://community.webshots.com/photo/469169606/1469189838056206750RHUsqy#

Again, the issue isn't muslims entering Churches or Churches providing sanctuary. The issue is muslims raising banners with their religious symbols in Churches.


Yes, I understand OZGeorge; however, as you can see it is a "Turkish" flag and they have a history of disliking Christians in general not as Muslims either. We (Arabs) had the same issues centuries ago with them if you know the history. Both Muslim and Christian Arabs under the Othman rule saved Greeks, Armenians, and other Eastern European background living in Syria, Jordan and Palestine. I have an Armenian aunt saved from the Othman hands by my Great-Grand Mother .... the Muslim Arab soldiers saved her and brought her to my Great Grand-Mother to raise her as her own. Now she is my Great Aunt in Love if not by blood.
Incase you did not know, the Palestinian Christians allowed the Muslim Palestinians to pray in the Church "Church of the Nativity" and they respected the Church, prayed and did not dishonor any pictures. They also used the Church as a refuge. We have been like this for centuries. And if you check the History, Christians fought with Salah Al-Din against the Crusades because we saw them as invaders .... now a days, everything is black and white; good and bad but no understanding of the true History.
Yes, we have extremists of all religions and race and this does not help the world in any case. God Help us with all the hatred and blood shed. We are lucky God has not brought the "Big Rock" (Comet) on us since we all call ourselves of God but we act like Satan himself.... hating and killing.

In Christ,
Hadel
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Offline Hadel

  • IN CHRIST
  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 277
  • Jesus Christ Our Lord, King of Kings
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2006, 03:16:17 AM »
Who has done this? (insulted the use of the word by Christians). My church is Antiochian (Arabic speaking). When the term Allah is used it is referring to the Christian God, becuase it's in the context of a Christian church. The "One True God" of Islam is not the same being that is the Christian God.All are welcome. What you seem to ignore is that in the case (see the OP) of this thread there's a church that's not a case of "A Catholic church being visited by Moslems" but "A Catholic Church being visited by Moslems AND being used as a mosque".

An analogy would be if you invited friends to stay at your house and they start sleeping with your wife. There's a limit to hospitality.The problem is that you've misread some of the argument.


I heard it most of my life by ignorant people who refuse to understand especially in an American High School and beyond (work area) such as "Oh you have your own religion, you are a pagan, you believe in the a God called, 'Allah'." Not understanding I am a Christian like them and understanding their are over 150 languages in this world.

Well, do me a favour, ask a Jew, "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" and then ask a Christian "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" and then ask a Muslim "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" Once you have done that let me know their answers. Thanks.

No I would not allow the conversion of my Church, that I agree, but I believe in refuge and prayers when needed by all as Jesus has taught me with True Love and not with ignorance, hatred, judgment and revenge with blood.

Jesus said to Judas before he betrayed Our Lord God, Jesus, "You do not see with your heart, you see with your mind."

In Christ,
Hadel
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,382
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2006, 03:49:58 AM »
as you can see it is a "Turkish" flag
Nope.
Look what's on the wall behind the pillar where the two arches meet.

Incase you did not know, the Palestinian Christians allowed the Muslim Palestinians to pray in the Church "Church of the Nativity" and they respected the Church, prayed and did not dishonor any pictures. They also used the Church as a refuge.
I did know, and I think it is good. And that is as it should be. Not dishonouring Christian Churches.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 03:54:47 AM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline montalban

  • Now in colour
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,813
Re: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2006, 06:09:48 AM »
I heard it most of my life by ignorant people who refuse to understand especially in an American High School and beyond (work area) such as "Oh you have your own religion, you are a pagan, you believe in the a God called, 'Allah'." Not understanding I am a Christian like them and understanding their are over 150 languages in this world.
No one here has made such a claim, as far as I can see, so you seem to be debating the wrong people.
Well, do me a favour, ask a Jew, "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" and then ask a Christian "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" and then ask a Muslim "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" Once you have done that let me know their answers. Thanks.
I've already pointed out the problem of this overly simplistic approach with an example using the word "Democracy".

However to answer you specifically, the Moslem idea of Abraham and Moses is not the same as yours or mine. Moslems believe that Moses was a Moslem. They believe that the message he brought to the people was the same as that Jesus brought, then Muhammed brought; Islam. They believe however that Jews, and then Christians either acted duplictously in corrupting the message, or lost it through some other means.

In the Koran it says Moses was a Moslem...
7:143
And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers.

9:32 They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians)* want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad  has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).

Do any search of the word "Jew" in the Koran and you're likely to find a verse that isn't too flattering...
 Surah 

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [91]       
  And when it is said to them (the Jews), "Believe in what Allah has sent down," they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us." And they disbelieve in that which came after it, while it is the truth confirming what is with them. Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Why then have you killed the Prophets of Allah aforetime, if you indeed have been believers?" 

The Jews here (according to the Koran) only 'claim' to believe in what was sent to them, but they don't.

If you have the time, I suggest you follow any of the links at the following site, which compares God to allah.
http://www.answering-islam.org/God/index.html


No I would not allow the conversion of my Church, that I agree, but I believe in refuge and prayers when needed by all as Jesus has taught me with True Love and not with ignorance, hatred, judgment and revenge with blood.
Well then that's the point of this thread, isn't it? :) Moslems have started turning churches into Mosques.



*- All comments in brackets have been inserted by the web-site http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx (which I hope is still up and running) and are meant to guide Moslems into a more proper understanding of whom is being spoken about. I include these too.
Fàilte dhut a Mhoire,
tha thu lan de na gràsan;
Tha an Tighearna maille riut.