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Author Topic: No kissing before marriage?  (Read 18799 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #135 on: March 30, 2006, 12:30:22 PM »

montalban

Quote
Ah the destruction of real truths and the creation of relative truths. Of course a statement about there being no real truths is itself to make a paradox.

Lol, I attempted to deal with both the "relative" thing, and the paradox charge in my thoughts linked to above. Since I'm leaving for work in about 8 minutes, I'll just cut and paste the relevant parts...

Quote
In practice, we should all be contextualists, in both beliefs and morals; but we normally gravitate towards defending subjectivism or absolutism in argument.  In this life we neither have any absolute understanding, nor apply things completely relatively, yet people resist the middle ground of dealing with each situation as it arises. Whatever people may want, they are normally forced to deal with reality as it really is, which means a moderate, contextual approach.
 
The relativist can be shown to not really be a relativist by asking any number of questions, such as asking whether it is wrong to rape a five year old girl repeatedly, until she dies. Obviously any sane person would answer that such a thing is certainly wrong. On the other hand, the absolutist can be shown to be wrong by pointing out that he cannot know anything infallibly, and thus absolutely, since he is a fallible being, and so at most can only claim to have "personally assured knowledge". Though there is an absolute and infallible true knowledge, this does not mean that a fallible human being is capable of understanding that true knowledge in it's entirety and profundity. Perhaps we only understand a miniscule fraction of that true knowledge, but that is enough for us to realise that, for one example, raping a five year old girl to death is wrong.
 
The would-be relativist thinks of truth as true personally for them but not for others, regardless of context; the would-be absolutist thinks of truths they affirm as true for everyone, regardless of context. In reality, they are not holding to truth itself, but just opinions....

(The exceptions arise when humanity generally agrees in their opinion. But this is not absolute truth, but just agreement in opinion that humanity finds important enough to attribute binding status to. An example of this is the belief that murder is a wrongful action, and should be punished.)

....This is not to denigrate opinion, since personal knowledge is all we have to go on as individuals. The problem is in trying to make our personal knowledge binding on others, when it should not be so. It is perfectly acceptable to say that "you shall not murder". However, it is not acceptable to say "You shall worship the Sun, or we will murder you."

Quote
Put simply, we can't unerringly know whether what we believe is absolutely true. We can come to have a more and more reliable understanding, but if what is being sought is infallible understanding, then that is not possible. Certainty or full assurance simply does not exist. While it would be impossible to go so far as to call this as an inviolate rule--since an infinite, infallible being might have such infallible understanding-- nonetheless as fallible humans we can never fully and with one-hundred percent assurance know that we are absolutely right. Fallible beings have no business claiming to know anything absolutely (ie. infallibly).
 
As an aside, when absolutists hear arguments like this, they often retort "Are you absolutely sure there are no absolutes?" It is a good paradoxical question, so far as it goes. However, if presented with this particular question, the answer given would simply be in the negative: no, we aren't sure absolutely that there are no absolutes. However, this lack of assurance is not a mark against any particular belief system, since the same answer applies to all belief systems, since all belief systems have been created, passed on, and are now interpreted by human beings, which most certainly are not infallible.

I'm also not sure how truths that are not absolute can be said to be necessarily not "real". Are you actually saying that a truth must be absolute or it is not real? because you seem to be using real and absolute truth as though they mean the same thing. Anyway, as to this...

Quote
Further to Asteriktos' anti-(traditionalist) Christian stance, Jesus Christ promised that the body of the Church would be without error, and we Orthodox hold that this is true. It is absolutely true, because the Church is the Body of Christ here on earth.

 
I'll be dealing with this relatively soon. I have hinted on this forum at various cracks that I've spotted in the whole "Trust us!" approach, but I've left a lot unsaid. I expect that I'll soon be saying a lot more. However, since this is orthodoxchristianity.net and not critiquechristianity.net, I'll probably post most of it off site.
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« Reply #136 on: March 30, 2006, 09:10:38 PM »

Maybe you hang around with dumb women - I only say this because I think women are a lot smarter than what you seem to think; able to pick up on whether you're interested in them - even if you don't kiss them

In no way did I accuse women of being unintelligent. In many ways, they are smarter than men. The fact is, however, that kissing is a healthy way to show and share affection.
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« Reply #137 on: March 31, 2006, 02:37:28 AM »

In no way did I accuse women of being unintelligent. In many ways, they are smarter than men. The fact is, however, that kissing is a healthy way to show and share affection.
You strongly suggest it because without kissing, you say, they won't know that you're interested. So the flowers, taking them out on a date, and saying "I really like you", won't do.
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« Reply #138 on: March 31, 2006, 02:40:57 AM »

montalban

Lol, I attempted to deal with both the "relative" thing, and the paradox charge in my thoughts linked to above. Since I'm leaving for work in about 8 minutes, I'll just cut and paste the relevant parts...
It's truly gladdening that you can tear yourself away from time to time to grant us a gleaning of your wisdom.
I'm also not sure how truths that are not absolute can be said to be necessarily not "real". Are you actually saying that a truth must be absolute or it is not real? because you seem to be using real and absolute truth as though they mean the same thing. Anyway, as to this...
No. I said there are absolute truths. Christianity speaks with these. You say Christian truth is 'contextual' and then you don't adddress the rest where I accepted that man is flawed, but God is not. But I can understand as you're in a hurry.
I'll be dealing with this relatively soon.
Thanks in advance, then
I have hinted on this forum at various cracks that I've spotted in the whole "Trust us!" approach, but I've left a lot unsaid. I expect that I'll soon be saying a lot more. However, since this is orthodoxchristianity.net and not critiquechristianity.net, I'll probably post most of it off site.
Great ploy. The old "I can argue, but I'm not allowed, but do be assured I'll post it 'somewhere'"

You've convinced me with that blistering attack
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« Reply #139 on: March 31, 2006, 02:42:20 AM »

In no way did I accuse women of being unintelligent. In many ways, they are smarter than men. The fact is, however, that kissing is a healthy way to show and share affection.

Oh, and other people are dumb too! Because without kissing a girl, they'll think you're gay Roll Eyes
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« Reply #140 on: March 31, 2006, 01:51:09 PM »

In no way did I accuse women of being unintelligent. In many ways, they are smarter than men. The fact is, however, that kissing is a healthy way to show and share affection.

And not kissing is unhealthy in a pre-marital relationship. Roll Eyes

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #141 on: April 01, 2006, 01:50:39 PM »

minasoliman,

I don't think that's what Mathew was talking about.  I'm not sure if we can just throw exact opposites at people and expect that to be the rebutle to their statements.  (not that i'm one to talk...)  

I think mathew was talking to what IS healthy, and to just say "well if this IS, then this MUST be NOT"  which doesn't really help to answer the question.  But who knows, maybe some people can get something out of statements like that... Smiley

Mathew,  

Here is a really interesting article where a guy talks about differences between Western understanding of love and intimacy, versus Eastern (Indian/Budhist) understanding of it.  It actually brings up really great points.  On the link, click on the section that says " showing affection" which I think has a lot of correlation to questions you bring up..

http://www.berzinarchives.com/buddhism_world_today/introduction_buddhist_sexual_ethics.html#contents

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« Reply #142 on: April 02, 2006, 12:45:31 AM »

minasoliman,

I don't think that's what Mathew was talking about.  I'm not sure if we can just throw exact opposites at people and expect that to be the rebutle to their statements.  (not that i'm one to talk...) ÂÂ

Matthew's quite welcome to explain himself here, but as far as I'm concerned he's largely ignored my posts when I've asked him about how kissing is important
a) to stop people thinking you're gay
and
b) to ensure women 'get' the message - as if there's no other way.
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« Reply #143 on: April 02, 2006, 01:51:43 AM »

Tomorrow morning, I will talk with my priest on the rightness or wrongness of kissing before marriage. I'll share his understanding of the matter with you.

Peace.
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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #144 on: April 02, 2006, 11:07:56 AM »

Quote
Great ploy. The old "I can argue, but I'm not allowed, but do be assured I'll post it 'somewhere'"

Here you go.

And no no no, there's no need to thank me. The warm and charitable tone of your posts is Christian gratefulness enough!  Grin
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« Reply #145 on: April 02, 2006, 05:39:30 PM »

Tomorrow morning, I will talk with my priest on the rightness or wrongness of kissing before marriage. I'll share his understanding of the matter with you.

Peace.

A wise thing to do Smiley
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« Reply #146 on: April 25, 2006, 02:35:17 AM »

I don't know if this is legit or not, but check this out:

""To Touch A Woman." First, we want to understand what the phrase "to touch a woman" means. The phrase "to touch a woman" is an idiom that referred to "sexual relations." In fact, the Greek word that Paul uses for "to touch" is APTO. It has the sense of "touch," "cling," and "take hold of." It also has the sense of "light or kindle" such as "to kindle a fire." It was also used to refer to sexual relations between a man and a woman. In short, APTO can mean anything from a simple touch to having sexual relationships."
http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/corner/read/r00164.html

Peace.
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« Reply #147 on: April 25, 2006, 10:43:49 AM »

Dear Matthew,

Christ is risen!

I don't know if this is any helpful to you.  But I've talked with a good friend who happened to have repented from a life of adultery, and has been a great example in our church.

I asked him concerning passionate kissing, and he said that would be "playing with fire", because it's hard to separate the two, sexual feelings and passionate kiss.  There's nothing wrong with a peck on the lips or cheeks, but he would rather save passionate kisses until after marriage.

I know one Coptic bishop, HG Bishop Youssef, goes far in saying that even holding hands is considered "touching before marriage."  He is obviously a bishop who was a monk before, but it is of bishopric authority and wishes that we keep all "fuzzy" stuff until after marriage.  I guess you can look at it as "fasting before feasting."  If you find the perfect Orthodox girlfriend who understands that, this is an exercise that is quite commendable and is encouraged to be done.

God bless.

Mina

PS  Have you talked with your priest yet?
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« Reply #148 on: April 25, 2006, 10:47:41 AM »

I would venture to say, based on the website's explanation on "not touching" is that it is not only a physical thing, but a mental thing.  So even if a simply kiss causes sexual thoughts, then that also is "touching" according to St. Paul.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #149 on: April 25, 2006, 03:47:46 PM »

Here is a thought.  I met my husband when I was just 14 and I knew little to nothing of the fire that could be ignited-cept from health class and protestant folks that measured how far apart boys and girls sat in chapel.  Grin  As if that helped lessen the teen pregnancy rate.

IN a society so inundated with free sex, any little bit of excitement is going to set some guy in the direction intended in releasing all that fire being built up.  This isn't a century ago. Guys aren't nearly as are purely idealed as they used to be, and to be fair neither are the gals.
 The more a man is ignited, tv, movies, porn, internet, whatever-even a kiss is a big deal. It doesn't take much to get most younger men going. Heck, still doesn't take much for my man to get going and he is middle age.  
You gotta ask, is kissing something that you would do if Christ accompanied you on your date?  Maybe, if it was a gentlemanly kiss goodnight.  But I doubt that is the kinda kissin ya'll are referencing, eh? Wink
Ya'll are basically asking whether or not it's right to just sample a little bit. But if you aren't intent on marrying the lady you are with, then you are sampling some other man's wife.  Just a thought from someone that wishes she only had memories of the man she met at 14... hindsight is 20/20 you know
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« Reply #150 on: April 25, 2006, 06:56:41 PM »

 If you find the perfect Orthodox girlfriend...

In this country, that is like trying to find a snowball in hell. Would it be good to travel from parish to parish looking for the right female? I've honestly thought about that.

Peace.
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« Reply #151 on: April 25, 2006, 07:12:46 PM »

In this country, that is like trying to find a snowball in hell. Would it be good to travel from parish to parish looking for the right female? I've honestly thought about that.

Or you could just find a non-Orthodox girl who's right in every other respect and get to work converting her.  One of my former priests was a fan of evangelism by matrimony (and I've seen it happen several times at my parish).
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« Reply #152 on: April 25, 2006, 08:59:30 PM »

I've been trying to convert an atheist to the Christian faith because she visited our church one morning and I thought it was a sign from God. But lately I've been thinking that she may be too far gone. Oi vay.

Peace.
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« Reply #153 on: April 26, 2006, 10:08:34 AM »

church shopping?  Just walk into any Serbian church and you'll find the right girl within minutes.  Make sure you walk in after the Gospel, no one comes before then.   Wink

then you gota worry about their crazy idiosyncracies.  But the kissing's gona be amazing  Wink Wink  

Sorry about the craziness, Pascha always makes me giddy.   Grin
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« Reply #154 on: April 26, 2006, 10:48:51 AM »

In this country, that is like trying to find a snowball in hell. Would it be good to travel from parish to parish looking for the right female? I've honestly thought about that.

Peace.

Well, unless you want to suffer in that hell for the rest of your life trying to convert a woman with clear differences (not to mention the problems you will have with children) rather than resting on that one snowball that God may find you.

I've talked to a guy whose father is Coptic and mother is Catholic, and he advises us all if we were to marry, we should marry within our own church.  It's annoying for a child to choose between his mother and father's church.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #155 on: April 26, 2006, 12:46:24 PM »

Or you could just find a non-Orthodox girl who's right in every other respect and get to work converting her.  One of my former priests was a fan of evangelism by matrimony (and I've seen it happen several times at my parish).

I've seen this done quite often at my church.  Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't.  I've seen men and women convert in order to marry an Orthodox Christian and deepen their own Orthodox faiths and be very active in my parish.  (In the marriage of one couple that I really admire for making this work, the Orthodox man actually didn't propose marriage to his girlfriend until he made sure she embraced the Orthodox faith in her own convictions and not just to marry him.)

I've also seen those who converted to marry an Orthodox Christian only to never really grow in the faith and end up apostasizing.  (Can someone truly apostasize after never having become truly Orthodox?  I really don't know.  Baptism, Chrismation, and first Communion don't make someone truly Orthodox without the inner conversion of true repentance.)  One of my close friends married a man who converted just to marry her; they divorced after he apostasized.
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« Reply #156 on: April 26, 2006, 12:52:39 PM »

I can't think of any conversions before marriage that I've observed.  All the ones that come to mind are where it started as a mixed marriage and then the non-Orthodox spouse eventually converted.
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« Reply #157 on: April 26, 2006, 01:52:46 PM »

In this country, that is like trying to find a snowball in hell. Would it be good to travel from parish to parish looking for the right female? I've honestly thought about that.
Matthew, have you tried eharmony.com or something similar (but eharmony seems to be the best for Christians)?  You can specify a preference for Orthodox Christian matches, or widen the net a bit.  My boyfriend and I found each other online.  I was Protestant but ripe for conversion.  Smiley
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« Reply #158 on: April 26, 2006, 02:35:02 PM »

I've been trying to convert an atheist to the Christian faith because she visited our church one morning and I thought it was a sign from God. But lately I've been thinking that she may be too far gone. Oi vay.

Too far gone?  or might you be trying too hard or going at it the wrong way?  Maybe you aren't the right person to "convert" her.  Maybe she is feeling like "prey".  Do you know *why* she came to your church?  

Ebor
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« Reply #159 on: April 26, 2006, 05:07:56 PM »

Too far gone?  or might you be trying too hard or going at it the wrong way?  Maybe you aren't the right person to "convert" her.  Maybe she is feeling like "prey".  Do you know *why* she came to your church?  

Ebor

By "prey", you mean "prey for one's own mating desires"?  In this case, "trying too hard" may actually be termed "coming on too strong".
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« Reply #160 on: April 26, 2006, 05:23:25 PM »

By "prey", you mean "prey for one's own mating desires"?  In this case, "trying too hard" may actually be termed "coming on too strong".

That is one way that the woman might feel like prey, and that might indeed be seen as "coming on too strong". Another is, might she feel like she is to be another 'notch on the belt' for someone who is trying to convert people?  

Ebor  

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« Reply #161 on: April 27, 2006, 12:29:13 AM »

 Do you know *why* she came to your church? ÂÂ

Her next-door neighbor invited her but she doesn't feel ready to make a faith commitment.
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« Reply #162 on: April 27, 2006, 01:12:52 AM »

maybe she was invited just for you?  Wink

Honestly though, you never know...

I would say keep talking to her as a girl, not as a convert, that way you have something BEFORE religion...not that religion shouldn't be a foundation, if not THE foundation.

I've just found it easier to talk about normal things with non-believers before I start cracking open the Bible or St. Athanasios' "On the Incarnation" etc.  
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« Reply #163 on: April 27, 2006, 08:15:52 PM »

I would say keep talking to her as a girl, not as a convert, that way you have something BEFORE religion...not that religion shouldn't be a foundation, if not THE foundation.

She asked me to stop talking to her, mostly because I'm too much into religion and she isn't ready for it. I'm still praying for her salvation though.

Peace.
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« Reply #164 on: April 27, 2006, 08:26:53 PM »

Perfect Orthodox girl?  Uhm, try finding an Orthodox boy who doesn't just go to church because his yiayia tells him to!

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« Reply #165 on: April 27, 2006, 10:56:17 PM »

I converted to Orthodoxy in my junior year of high school, my parents were not involved.
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« Reply #166 on: April 28, 2006, 01:05:26 AM »

Perfect Orthodox girl?  Uhm, try finding an Orthodox boy who doesn't just go to church because his yiayia tells him to!

Good point.  I bet you could find someone though, if you were willing to look outside Greek circles.  
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« Reply #167 on: April 28, 2006, 01:10:53 AM »

Good point.  I bet you could find someone though, if you were willing to look outside Greek circles. ÂÂ

Yeah, but how many of these would be psychologically stable? Take the seminary here for example, many people go to Church regularly, some even twice a day (or so I'm told by those who believe I should be in Church more), but I fear none of them could be properly considered psychologically stable Wink
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« Reply #168 on: April 28, 2006, 01:14:01 AM »

I'm not going near that one.  Wink
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« Reply #169 on: April 29, 2006, 08:15:51 AM »

Perfect Orthodox girl?  Uhm, try finding an Orthodox boy who doesn't just go to church because his yiayia tells him to!


What's a yiayia? In looking it up I've found this site...
http://yiayia.org/
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« Reply #170 on: April 29, 2006, 07:20:53 PM »

Yiayia means "grandma" in Demotic Greek.

FYI: The proper accent is on the final syllable.
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« Reply #171 on: April 29, 2006, 08:04:46 PM »

Yiayia means "grandma" in Demotic Greek.

FYI: The proper accent is on the final syllable.
Ah, thanks you. That now makes sense.
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« Reply #172 on: April 30, 2006, 07:00:49 PM »

In Greek the first sylable is actually what we would consider the last sylable in a world.  Or in technical terms the ante-penalt.  

Also anyone who thinks that going to church all the time is a waste of time obviously has never been to church all the time.  If they had, then they would clearly know the benefits of being in the church all the time.  

Any girl who is willing to go to church all the time is either
1) obedient to her parents = a good thing
2) obedient to the church = a good thing
3) genuinly wants to be in church = a good thing

So hey, why not go for that kind of girl.  Plus they're usually the fun ones anyway  Wink
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« Reply #173 on: May 01, 2006, 12:14:19 AM »

Perfect Orthodox girl?  Uhm, try finding an Orthodox boy who doesn't just go to church because his yiayia tells him to!




lol, that's a cute one Zoe. Yiayia knows best  Grin
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« Reply #174 on: May 19, 2006, 01:38:44 PM »

Forgive me for resurrecting the topic, but something came accross to me.

In American Protestant marriages, it seems to me all of the pastors end with the sentence to the man:  "You may now kiss the bride."  What does that signify in traditional American circles, and has that tradition been lost now that many seeing kissing as not the same thing as consummating a marriage?

God bless.

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« Reply #175 on: May 19, 2006, 02:18:30 PM »

What's a yiayia? In looking it up I've found this site...
http://yiayia.org/

Haha, that gave me a well-needed laugh.  Thanks Smiley
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