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Author Topic: Allah Takes Over Catholic Church  (Read 6406 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 11, 2006, 06:17:39 AM »

"Allah Takes Over Catholic Church"
The Belgian Bishops have opened their churches to illegal immigrants in order to pressurize the Belgian authorities to allow the immigrants to stay in the country.

Most of the immigrant squatters in the churches are Muslims. They display banners in the church showing the name of Allah (picture taken in the church of Our Lady of Perpetual Succour, Brussels).
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1053

What next?
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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2006, 07:32:38 AM »

And who is your neighbor, Montalban?
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2006, 08:16:03 AM »

And who is your neighbor, Montalban?

Hang on. That's unfair on two counts.
Firstly, Montalban is simply quoting the article.
Secondly, loving our neighbour, and seeing to his needs is one thing. Allowing him to take what is sacred to us and desecrate it is not in the list of required duties of Love. The same Lord who said "Love thy neighbour" also said “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." (Matthew 7:6)
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2006, 10:30:14 AM »

CHRIST IS RISEN!

I find this rather interesting, since most Muslims would never set foot in a Christian church.
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2006, 11:07:33 AM »

"Allah Takes Over Catholic Church"
The Belgian Bishops have opened their churches to illegal immigrants in order to pressurize the Belgian authorities to allow the immigrants to stay in the country.

Most of the immigrant squatters in the churches are Muslims. They display banners in the church showing the name of Allah (picture taken in the church of Our Lady of Perpetual Succour, Brussels).
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1053

What next?

Wow.   Shocked  Someone from the Vatican needs to come and stop this immediately.  Find a shelter for them and give them food, but not in a church, giving them expensive electronic equipment (owning a computer is not a "right" ANYWHERE) and allowing services inside.
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2006, 11:09:22 AM »

OZGEORGE

I think we can end this thread where you left off last.

Thanks....

Christ Has Risen!!!
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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2006, 12:07:33 PM »

If Trullo says that a horse can be stabled in a church in time of need, why not a Muslim?
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2006, 12:32:30 PM »

Quote
If Trullo says that a horse can be stabled in a church in time of need, why not a Muslim?

I don't think horses are hostile to Christianity. 
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« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2006, 01:02:10 PM »

Maybe the Roman Catholics are hoping that some of them will convert because of their help?
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« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2006, 01:16:48 PM »

If Trullo says that a horse can be stabled in a church in time of need, why not a Muslim?
I have no problem housing Muslims inside a Christian church, as long as we tell them that they cannot conduct Muslim services inside the church and must worship at a local mosque, instead.
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« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2006, 01:31:11 PM »

Based upon my parents' reaction (both of whom are Roman Catholic) stories like these (where the Catholic Church takes an almost dogmatic position on a current political issue - such as the American immigration debate) can really alienate people.  There is nothing inherently un-Christian about regulating a nation's borders.  There is a huge difference between calling for fair and human treatment (which I think churches ought to support) and demanding things (citizenship, free health care, free education etc.).  It can really irk and agitate otherwise faithful members of a church if the church gets behind the latter position.
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« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2006, 01:41:20 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9021.msg120379#msg120379 date=1147368671]
Based upon my parents' reaction (both of whom are Roman Catholic) stories like these (where the Catholic Church takes an almost dogmatic position on a current political issue - such as the American immigration debate) can really alienate people.  There is nothing inherently un-Christian about regulating a nation's borders.  There is a huge difference between calling for fair and human treatment (which I think churches ought to support) and demanding things (citizenship, free health care, free education etc.).  It can really irk and agitate otherwise faithful members of a church if the church gets behind the latter position.
[/quote]

I think the Roman Catholic Church might also be taking the side of illegal immigrants, because this has become such a big issue amongst Mexicans, who are overwhelmingly Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2006, 06:15:56 PM »

If Trullo says that a horse can be stabled in a church in time of need, why not a Muslim?
Again, the issue isn't muslims in Churches. The issue is muslims putting up symbols of Islam in Churches. Which Person of the Holy Trinity is "Allah" that his name should be on a banner in as Church. Allah cannot be the Son nor the Holy Spirit, since there is no Son or Holy Spirit in Islam, and nor can he be the Father since the Father begets the Son, and "Allah" is distinctly taught to have no son. So who the hell is the god "Allah"? And why should his name adorn a Christian Church?
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« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2006, 06:21:49 PM »

OZGEORGE

I think we can end this thread where you left off last.

Thanks....

Christ Has Risen!!!
Errr....yeah.....
Were you were passing the dutchie on the left hand side when you wrote this? What are you talking about?
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« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2006, 07:03:39 PM »

Hang on. That's unfair on two counts.
Firstly, Montalban is simply quoting the article.
Secondly, loving our neighbour, and seeing to his needs is one thing. Allowing him to take what is sacred to us and desecrate it is not in the list of required duties of Love. The same Lord who said "Love thy neighbour" also said “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces." (Matthew 7:6)

In nomine Iesu I offer you continued peace ozgeorge,

Thus saith the Lord: Heaven is my throne, and the earth my footstool: what is this house that you will build to me? and what is this place of my rest? My hand made all these things, and all these things were made, saith the Lord. But to whom shall I have respect, but to him that is poor and little, and of a contrite spirit, and that trembleth at my words? He that sacrificeth an ox, is as if he slew a man: he that killeth a sheep in sacrifice, as if he should brain a dog: he that offereth an oblation, as if he should offer swine's blood; he that remembereth incense, as if he should bless an idol. All these things have they chosen in their ways, and their soul is delighted in their abominations. Wherefore I also will choose their mockeries, and will bring upon them the things they feared: because I called, and there was none that would answer; I have spoken, and they heard not; and they have done evil in my eyes, and have chosen the things that displease me. Hear the word of the Lord, you that tremble at his word: Your brethren that hate you, and cast you out for my name's sake, have said: Let the Lord be glorified, and we shall see in your joy: but they shall be confounded. - Isaiah 66:1-6

When we start to get confused about what 'really' matters to the Lord it is sometimes valuable to reflect on Isaiah 66:1-6. Our bodies are the Temple of the Lord not the buildings we congregate within. The Church has long held out itself as a place of sanctuary and in this case I do believe that it is serving it's role as such.

Peace and God Bless.
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« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2006, 07:42:37 PM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you continued peace ozgeorge,

Thus saith the Lord: Heaven is my throne, and the earth my footstool: what is this house that you will build to me? and what is this place of my rest? My hand made all these things, and all these things were made, saith the Lord. But to whom shall I have respect, but to him that is poor and little, and of a contrite spirit, and that trembleth at my words? He that sacrificeth an ox, is as if he slew a man: he that killeth a sheep in sacrifice, as if he should brain a dog: he that offereth an oblation, as if he should offer swine's blood; he that remembereth incense, as if he should bless an idol. All these things have they chosen in their ways, and their soul is delighted in their abominations. Wherefore I also will choose their mockeries, and will bring upon them the things they feared: because I called, and there was none that would answer; I have spoken, and they heard not; and they have done evil in my eyes, and have chosen the things that displease me. Hear the word of the Lord, you that tremble at his word: Your brethren that hate you, and cast you out for my name's sake, have said: Let the Lord be glorified, and we shall see in your joy: but they shall be confounded. - Isaiah 66:1-6

When we start to get confused about what 'really' matters to the Lord it is sometimes valuable to reflect on Isaiah 66:1-6. Our bodies are the Temple of the Lord not the buildings we congregate within. The Church has long held out itself as a place of sanctuary and in this case I do believe that it is serving it's role as such.

Peace and God Bless.

I fail to see how Isaiah (an OT verse) supercedes ozgeorges's point from Matthew (an NT verse).  You are basically in EXTREME danger (in the Belgium circumstance) of casting something sacred (the church) to the dogs (Islam - not Muslims per se although a case for them can be made).
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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2006, 07:33:09 AM »

Wow.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Shocked  Someone from the Vatican needs to come and stop this immediately.  Find a shelter for them and give them food, but not in a church, giving them expensive electronic equipment (owning a computer is not a "right" ANYWHERE) and allowing services inside.

The Belgian Catholic church has been and continues to be the most liberal of all Catholic churches in Europe.   Rome has for many years tried to straighten this church but to no avail.

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« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2006, 08:31:00 AM »

And if I may literally play devil's advocate for a moment: what better way for the father of lies to wipe the memory of Christ and the Christian history of Europe away than to convince "christians" to do this themselves little by little and all in the name of "Love"? And what better sign that this is exactly what is happening when the name of a false god is raised in triumphal banners in christian churches?  By all means we should love our neighbour no matter what his creed; but that doesn't mean we have to love his creed- especially a creed which is diametrically opposed to our own.  "Love" is no excuse for betraying Christ to His enemies.
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« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2006, 09:10:01 AM »

I agree, ozgeorge.

Symbols of other religions have no place in a Christian Church. But then again, we ARE talking about the RC's  Wink So the whole "Christian Church" idea is debatable!
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« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2006, 09:11:06 AM »

I fail to see how Isaiah (an OT verse) supercedes ozgeorges's point from Matthew (an NT verse).  You are basically in EXTREME danger (in the Belgium circumstance) of casting something sacred (the church) to the dogs (Islam - not Muslims per se although a case for them can be made).

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace Elisha,

Let me just say that the word of God is valuable for reflection and instruction yesterday, today and tomorrow, it everlasting and forever. I fail to see the need to relegate it's wisdom and moral instruction to second class status because one individual or another desires to use one verse for a given situation. I see this pushing away of the Sacred Scriptures all too often and I dare say it is a wound which needs to be healed. The point of Isaiah 66:1-6 is about true and false worship. If we don't have 'charity' we have 'nothing'. Are we not asked to love our enemies and conquer evil with good? If, as you suggest, Islam is a grave threat to the West ask yourself 'is it really because they love too much?' Is that why Islam is a threat or is it because they gave away their 'faith' long ago and desired no progeny? Why are latin immigrants flooding into the US is it because of 'love' or because the US pursed personal riches instead of progeny? When you look deeply at why the West is being infused with immigrants from 2nd and 3rd World populations it has a lot more to do with the fact that for several generations the West has pursued the goal of personal greed and allowed their populations to dwindle. Our vices and our pursuit of them instead of the pursuit of God and the Natural Law are the 'real' reasons we find ourselves in the mess that we are in not our charity.

When we look at the verses of Matthew, my best interpretation would be our mysteries which are truly our most Sacred Treasures. Such should not be allowed to be mocked or misused by those who are not initiated into our faith.

Also please be clear that I know nothing about the Church in question nor their ultimate motivations but I do know that when asked the Church should 'always' feed, cloth, and shelter those in need regardless of race, creed, ethnicity or religion. Our Lord didn't offer us a conditionals with these commandments. We are to practice them for 'all'.

Peace and God Bless.
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« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2006, 09:15:09 AM »

Symbols of other religions have no place in a Christian Church. But then again, we ARE talking about the RC's  Wink So the whole "Christian Church" idea is debatable!
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« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2006, 09:37:47 AM »

I see this pushing away of the Sacred Scriptures all too often and I dare say it is a wound which needs to be healed.
Do you now?....that's nice, but I dare say that false interpretation of Scripture and reading in to it things which are plainly not there is worse.

The point of Isaiah 66:1-6 is about true and false worship.
And exactly where in Isaiah 66:1-6 does it say "Set abominations in My Temple and write the names of false gods on banners and set them up high on walls which have been consecrated to Me with holy chrism sayeth the Lord..."?
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« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2006, 09:45:48 AM »

What I really don't understand about this is why haven't some parishoners marched in and torn down the banners. Obviously the priest is an idiot. I mean, Lord knows I am no traditionalist fanatic, but if this was done in my Church - I would be in the rabble tearing them down and INSISTING that they show respect to the beliefs of those that are sheltering them. It's just common courtesy.
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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2006, 09:50:14 AM »

What I really don't understand about this is why haven't some parishoners marched in and torn down the banners.
[devil's advocate] How could you suggest something so unloving? Shame on you! You Orthodox are just so unsophisticated in your approach to Christianity. Don't you realise that those banners are a testimony to Christian Love? [/devil's advocate]
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« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2006, 09:52:55 AM »

[devil's advocate] How could you suggest something so unloving? Shame on you! You Orthodox are just so unsophisticated in your approach to Christianity. Don't you realise that those banners are a testimony to Christian Love? [/devil's advocate]

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« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2006, 10:21:54 AM »

Do you now?....that's nice, but I dare say that false interpretation of Scripture and reading in to it things which are plainly not there is worse.

In nomine Iesu I offer you continued peace ozgeorge,

Please instruct me as to what you believe was falsely interpretated in Isaiah 66:1-6? What did 'you' get from reading the text?

Quote
And exactly where in Isaiah 66:1-6 does it say "Set abominations in My Temple and write the names of false gods on banners and set them up high on walls which have been consecrated to Me with holy chrism sayeth the Lord..."?

If you understood Isaiah 66:1-6 you might reconsider what 'My Temple' really is and then our realize that our affections for our Parishes is often our own and not God's at all. You speak of 'abominations' but Islam doesn't have 'any' symbols. They are not allowed idolatry in any way. My guess is what is on those banners is verses from the Quran or simply Allah Akbar which means 'God is Great'. We use the word 'God'  but be clear it comes from the German word Gott which was originally a pagan god. Be careful which terms used for 'God' you question as legitimate. Unless we keep to Hebrew we are often using terms never intended for use of the Almightly of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses.

I'm really interested how any of you would offer charity to your enemies when you find such acts so abhorrent? Can you give me an example?

Peace and God Bless.
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« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2006, 10:32:19 AM »

I'm really interested how any of you would offer charity to your enemies when you find such acts so abhorrent? Can you give me an example?

I'm a little curious about how you make the leap from opposition to one form of offering charity to it being opposition to all acts of charity.  Just how did you get to that conclusion?
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« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2006, 10:41:28 AM »

I'm really interested how any of you would offer charity to your enemies when you find such acts so abhorrent? Can you give me an example?

Didn't someone -- possibly ozgeorge -- already say: Let them stay in the Church, but don't let them use it for Islamic worship or promotion of Islam? They can do both of those things without any problem on some other location. So there's your example. Seems pretty clear.

Whether or not you like that is another matter, but it's still charity.
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« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2006, 10:47:56 AM »

Please instruct me as to what you believe was falsely interpretated in Isaiah 66:1-6?

I did.

What did 'you' get from reading the text?
Irrelevant

and then our realize that our affections for our Parishes is often our own and not God's at all.
Goodness. Is that conjecture? No, surely not.

You speak of 'abominations' but Islam doesn't have 'any' symbols.
Oh really? You'd better drop a line to the headquarters of the Red Crescent and let them know.

They are not allowed idolatry in any way.
And we are?

My guess is what is on those banners is verses from the Quran or simply Allah Akbar which means 'God is Great'.
Your "guess"....more conjecture?  Tut, tut.........


We use the word 'God'  but be clear it comes from the German word Gott which was originally a pagan god.
Really? I always thought it was "dog" backwards....

Be careful which terms used for 'God' you question as legitimate.
I have no idea what you are talking about here. I'm not sure that "God" is an illegitimate word for "God"....I do, however, know that "allah" is not "God".

Unless we keep to Hebrew
I don't see why I should. I only accept the Septuagint anyway.

we are often using terms never intended for use of the Almightly of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Moses.
The God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob as well as Moses is the Holy Trinity. Same God I worship.

I'm really interested how any of you would offer charity to your enemies when you find such acts so abhorrent?
You mean, how we would offer charity without selling out our Faith?
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« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2006, 11:05:12 AM »

We do not worship the god of the Moslems or the Jews - the father of lies etc... we love 'em but don't condone their demonic allegiances, wittingly or unwittingly.   We should try not to confuse Love with Truth - they are surely the same?
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« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2006, 04:36:36 PM »

Salve!

Well this appears to be a pretty 'hot' topic. I noticed this post over on Catholic Answers in the Eastern Christianity Forum:



Since Jesus is the complete self-revelation of God it logically follows that the "revelations" found in the Koran are only those of God where they are copies of what was already revealed. That which is not of God is of man and is, therefore, an invention.

In the photo I saw there was no statue of Mary covered by the Muslims (who hold Mary in high esteem). If the only objection is the presence of a banner saying "Allah" then I don't have a problem. If it goes beyond that, then there may be a problem that should be addressed.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. In my Melkite parish we use that word frequently. Perhaps we, too, are ignorant (a claim made by the article's writer)?

The banner in the picture doesn't use any of the Muslim titles for God (or, at least, I don't see any). All I see is the word "Allah." Further, following the link "the name of Allah" leads to an article that is, IMNSHO, inflammatory. Arabic is read from right to left, so the idea that "It resembles a flame with five tongues that increase in size" is based upon a Western interpretation of the word -- from an Arabic understanding it is simply the way Allah would be written (the first letter, "Alif" is on the left and is tall and thin, as it is supposed to be). The whole ide that the word is a "logo" is certainly a stretch.



Comments?
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« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2006, 04:47:05 PM »

Quote
Comments?

The argument that Arabic speaking Christians use the work Allah to also mean God, therefore Islam's Allah is God is ridiculous.  The ancient Greeks called their gods by θεός and the Romans Deus - both of which are used by Christians today.  Does that mean Zeus and Jupiter are the same as the Christian God? 
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« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2006, 04:59:07 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9021.msg120550#msg120550 date=1147466825]
The argument that Arabic speaking Christians use the work Allah to also mean God, therefore Islam's Allah is God is ridiculous.ÂÂ  The ancient Greeks called their gods by θεός and the Romans Deus - both of which are used by Christians today.ÂÂ  Does that mean Zeus and Jupiter are the same as the Christian God?ÂÂ  [/quote]

Salve,

I'm not sure I want to jump on the anger train with you all but I think you guys disagree with the overall revelation of the Muslim God but all three (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) are refering to the same monotheistic Creator God of Abraham. If you get to overly criticial of concepts one has about God then we'd all worship different God because we all have differing ideas somewhere about God. So although I don't agree with the 'revelation' Muslims claim from Allah I recognize that Allah is their understanding of the God of Abraham just as the Trinity is our understand of the same God. I know some Fundamentalist types that hold your beliefs but I'm not willing to say that Allah is the same as Jupiter. Sorry.
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« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2006, 05:13:46 PM »

"anger train" ... "I know some Fundamentalist types that hold your beliefs..." 

How's that for dodging a discussion and instead insulting the character of those with whom you are discussing! 

Interestingly enough I did not share my personal beliefs in preceding post - only that the argument that since Muslims and Christians (in Arabic) use the same word for God, therefore it must be the same person has a very strong counterexample - that Christians use the same word for deities that are clearly not the same as theirs in various languages.  So if you are going to accuse me of something, please actually accuse me of something that I have said without the guilt by association rhetoric of "I know some Fundamentalist types that hold your beliefs...". 
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« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2006, 05:38:16 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9021.msg120553#msg120553 date=1147468426]
"anger train" ... "I know some Fundamentalist types that hold your beliefs..."ÂÂ  

How's that for dodging a discussion and instead insulting the character of those with whom you are discussing!ÂÂ  

Interestingly enough I did not share my personal beliefs in preceding post - only that the argument that since Muslims and Christians (in Arabic) use the same word for God, therefore it must be the same person has a very strong counterexample - that Christians use the same word for deities that are clearly not the same as theirs in various languages.ÂÂ  So if you are going to accuse me of something, please actually accuse me of something that I have said without the guilt by association rhetoric of "I know some Fundamentalist types that hold your beliefs...".ÂÂ  
[/quote]

Please note that I said "you all" to mean in my post I was speaking generally and not just to you...  Sad

So seriously don't take it personally. Being from a Baptist background Fundamentalists isn't necessarily a 'bad thing' so don't take it as such I'm just saying that I don't take that line of argument very far because it ends up with everyone who can't define their views of God the same as having a different God. I don't buy that at all.

I can tell you all (note the general comment here  Grin) are real tense about this issue. I'm not sure why but I recognize it.

Peace to everyone!  Wink
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« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2006, 07:10:56 PM »

I'm just saying that I don't take that line of argument very far because it ends up with everyone who can't define their views of God the same as having a different God. I don't buy that at all.

chrisb,
You are welcome not to buy it. But just don't portray the alternate view as incredible when clearly it is not.
If God reveals that He is Three Persons, and that revelation is deliberately and knowingly rejected  (as the Quran does), then those who follow the teaching which rejects the Divine Revelation on the basis of what they consider to be a revelation (ie, the followers of the Quran) are worshipping a different god. Even Abraham received (literally received) a revelation of the HolyTrinity under the Oak of Mamre. So the Quran rejects even the God of Abraham. Allah is a different god than the one we Orthodox Christians worship, he is not simply a "different concept" of the "same God". How could they be the same when Christ is God, and allah says He isn't in the Quran?
Perhaps when your country has been under Islamic oppression for 400 years, perhaps when your bishops have to operate under Islamic law, perhaps when the churches in your country are destroyed by islamists in order to wipe out the history of christianity from your land, then your opinion may hold more credibility with me. We the Orthodox have seen (and continue to see) in our traditional countries how different the god of islam is to the Living God.
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son." (1John 2:22)


 
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« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2006, 09:19:56 PM »

And who is your neighbor, Montalban?

Are you saying that these Moslems need a space in the church to pray?
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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2006, 09:21:16 PM »

CHRIST IS RISEN!

I find this rather interesting, since most Muslims would never set foot in a Christian church.
I don't think that the article is there to suggest a subtle way for the Catholic Church to covnert Moslems; if anything it suggests that the Moselms are doing the converting (if only of the premises)
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« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2006, 09:22:23 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9021.msg120369#msg120369 date=1147365150]
I don't think horses are hostile to Christianity.ÂÂ  
[/quote]
This is true
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« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2006, 09:24:43 PM »

And if I may literally play devil's advocate for a moment: what better way for the father of lies to wipe the memory of Christ and the Christian history of Europe away than to convince "christians" to do this themselves little by little and all in the name of "Love"? And what better sign that this is exactly what is happening when the name of a false god is raised in triumphal banners in christian churches?ÂÂ  By all means we should love our neighbour no matter what his creed; but that doesn't mean we have to love his creed- especially a creed which is diametrically opposed to our own.ÂÂ  "Love" is no excuse for betraying Christ to His enemies.

I agree here.

It is not 'love' to let a person keep sinning. And for them to deny Christ in his own house (if I for a moment accept that Christ would reside in a Catholic church  Wink ).
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« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2006, 11:57:29 AM »

chrisb,
You are welcome not to buy it. But just don't portray the alternate view as incredible when clearly it is not.
If God reveals that He is Three Persons, and that revelation is deliberately and knowingly rejectedÂÂ  (as the Quran does), then those who follow the teaching which rejects the Divine Revelation on the basis of what they consider to be a revelation (ie, the followers of the Quran) are worshipping a different god. Even Abraham received (literally received) a revelation of the HolyTrinity under the Oak of Mamre. So the Quran rejects even the God of Abraham. Allah is a different god than the one we Orthodox Christians worship, he is not simply a "different concept" of the "same God". How could they be the same when Christ is God, and allah says He isn't in the Quran?
Perhaps when your country has been under Islamic oppression for 400 years, perhaps when your bishops have to operate under Islamic law, perhaps when the churches in your country are destroyed by islamists in order to wipe out the history of christianity from your land, then your opinion may hold more credibility with me. We the Orthodox have seen (and continue to see) in our traditional countries how different the god of islam is to the Living God.
"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son." (1John 2:22)

Salve!

Oh I hear what you are saying and frankly I could 'one up you' with:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:36

Pretty harsh depending on how we take it.
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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2006, 05:55:01 AM »


Cheesy
Do you have any pics of cans of whoop arse?
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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2006, 06:02:10 AM »

Salve!
G'day
Well this appears to be a pretty 'hot' topic. I noticed this post over on Catholic Answers in the Eastern Christianity Forum:

Since Jesus is the complete self-revelation of God it logically follows that the "revelations" found in the Koran are only those of God where they are copies of what was already revealed. That which is not of God is of man and is, therefore, an invention.
You mean to say that where the Koran just happens by accident to agree with the Bible, we can accept those teachings?
In the photo I saw there was no statue of Mary covered by the Muslims
If they are using the church as a mosque then it would seem probable that they would cover 'offending'/'graven' images.
(who hold Mary in high esteem).
Their idea of Mary is that she was still a virgin. However they also misrepresent the Christian position by claiming that Christians believe her to be a god like the Father and the Son; their misrepresentation is that Christians believe in Father, Son, and Holy Mother.
If the only objection is the presence of a banner saying "Allah" then I don't have a problem. If it goes beyond that, then there may be a problem that should be addressed.
There's two problems here; one is
their word 'god' represents not just the same word 'god' in English, but a concept of what God is. Their idea of God and the Christian idea of God are two totally different ideas. We believe in a loving God. They believing in a god of deceit (who caused the people of Jesus' day to only believe that He had been crucified).

Further, they are using a church to worship this 'foreign' god; a being that is not our God.
Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. In my Melkite parish we use that word frequently. Perhaps we, too, are ignorant (a claim made by the article's writer)?
If it is used in a Christian context, then the meaning behind the word is different, but Νεκτάριος said it better than I

Given those points, it's enough. Even the Pope rejects the use of churches as mosques.
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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2006, 01:25:54 PM »

Cheesy
Do you have any pics of cans of whoop arse?
Here's one from the makers of Jones Soda.  Wink

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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2006, 04:08:48 PM »

While being used by Moslems, Allah indicates a different God.  Let's not be too harsh, though, against the name Allah since it is Arabic for "God" and we have plenty of Arabic-speaking Christians out there.
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« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2006, 07:28:28 AM »

While being used by Moslems, Allah indicates a different God.ÂÂ  Let's not be too harsh, though, against the name Allah since it is Arabic for "God" and we have plenty of Arabic-speaking Christians out there.

Νεκτάριος already (I think) introduced a better counter to this.

It's like the word "Democratic" means something to you, than it does to Germans of the former German Democratic Republic (aka DDR aka East Germany)
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« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2006, 03:11:26 PM »

Νεκτάριος already (I think) introduced a better counter to this.

It's like the word "Democratic" means something to you, than it does to Germans of the former German Democratic Republic (aka DDR aka East Germany)

I'm not saying you can't villanize their use of the word; just don't villanize the word completely, i.e. out of context.
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« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2006, 07:27:12 AM »

I'm not saying you can't villanize their use of the word; just don't villanize the word completely, i.e. out of context.

The 'conext' is what I'm dealing with. Moslems call their god 'al-lah'. Christians (of Arabic background) might use the same word. It's not the same God.
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« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2006, 09:23:59 AM »

OK, as an Arab, I get insulted when you insult the Name "Allah" because I am an Orthodox Christian and when I say a prayer or a reference in Arabic I say "Allah" which means God in Arabic. God has different names to different languages in Greek, Spanish, German, English, Slavic, Russian, Hebrew, Chinese, and so on thus in Arabic we say "Allah." So please do not insult the word since to us Christian Arabs mean the the same as a Muslim "The One True God"

Yes, for us in Jordan, Muslims come to funerals, weddings and visit us Christians on our holidays so no shock for me here in Jordan. I have had Merry Christmas Gifts, Happy Easters and gee all from Muslims. Maybe you have to live among them to truly understand them.

Gee, would you allow a Jew to enter your Church? A Hindu? a Buddhist? When a human is in need we do not ask what colour or religion you are before we stop their bleeding, or do we? I think we all forgot what Christ taught us, remember when a Roman, a pagan believed in him before the people of Israel.... show love and kindness and then you might receive believers in the end. I think Mother Theresa, a Catholic, had the right idea, she spread the word of Christ thru charity and love and not hatred and scorn. However, show hatred and bloodshed; and shall you receive blood back, "Kill by the Sword, die by the sword."

I said my peace.
In Christ,
Hadel
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« Reply #49 on: May 19, 2006, 09:31:14 AM »

I said my peace.

An unintended pun?  Cheesy

As the saying goes: "A freudian slip is when you say one thing and mean your mother."
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« Reply #50 on: May 19, 2006, 09:41:02 AM »

 Wink No, I always say what I mean ....  Cheesy
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« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2006, 09:47:21 AM »

OK, as an Arab, I get insulted when you insult the Name "Allah" because I am an Orthodox Christian and when I say a prayer or a reference in Arabic I say "Allah" which means God in Arabic. God has different names to different languages in Greek, Spanish, German, English, Slavic, Russian, Hebrew, Chinese, and so on thus in Arabic we say "Allah." So please do not insult the word since to us Christian Arabs mean the the same as a Muslim "The One True God"

Yes, for us in Jordan, Muslims come to funerals, weddings and visit us Christians on our holidays so no shock for me here in Jordan. I have had Merry Christmas Gifts, Happy Easters and gee all from Muslims. Maybe you have to live among them to truly understand them.

Gee, would you allow a Jew to enter your Church? A Hindu? a Buddhist? When a human is in need we do not ask what colour or religion you are before we stop their bleeding, or do we? I think we all forgot what Christ taught us, remember when a Roman, a pagan believed in him before the people of Israel.... show love and kindness and then you might receive believers in the end. I think Mother Theresa, a Catholic, had the right idea, she spread the word of Christ thru charity and love and not hatred and scorn. However, show hatred and bloodshed; and shall you receive blood back, "Kill by the Sword, die by the sword."

I said my peace.
In Christ,
Hadel


In nomine Iesu I offer you peace Hadel,

God Bless you! Well said. Hear Hear!

Peace.
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« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2006, 09:53:59 AM »

Hadel,
Let me explain why this may be an issue for other Orthodox Christians who lived among moslems.
Here is a recent photograph of the Church of Agia Sophia:


http://community.webshots.com/photo/469169606/1469189838056206750RHUsqy#

Again, the issue isn't muslims entering Churches or Churches providing sanctuary. The issue is muslims raising banners with their religious symbols in Churches.
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« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2006, 10:40:04 AM »

OK, as an Arab, I get insulted when you insult the Name "Allah" because I am an Orthodox Christian and when I say a prayer or a reference in Arabic I say "Allah" which means God in Arabic.
Who has done this? (insulted the use of the word by Christians). My church is Antiochian (Arabic speaking). When the term Allah is used it is referring to the Christian God, becuase it's in the context of a Christian church.
God has different names to different languages in Greek, Spanish, German, English, Slavic, Russian, Hebrew, Chinese, and so on thus in Arabic we say "Allah." So please do not insult the word since to us Christian Arabs mean the the same as a Muslim "The One True God"
The "One True God" of Islam is not the same being that is the Christian God.
Gee, would you allow a Jew to enter your Church? A Hindu? a Buddhist?
All are welcome. What you seem to ignore is that in the case (see the OP) of this thread there's a church that's not a case of "A Catholic church being visited by Moslems" but "A Catholic Church being visited by Moslems AND being used as a mosque".

An analogy would be if you invited friends to stay at your house and they start sleeping with your wife. There's a limit to hospitality.
I said my peace.
In Christ,
Hadel

The problem is that you've misread some of the argument.
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« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2006, 10:41:20 AM »

In nomine Iesu I offer you peace Hadel,

God Bless you! Well said. Hear Hear!

Peace.
You support your church being used as a mosque?
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« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2006, 10:42:35 AM »

Hadel,
Let me explain why this may be an issue for other Orthodox Christians who lived among moslems.
Here is a recent photograph of the Church of Agia Sophia:


http://community.webshots.com/photo/469169606/1469189838056206750RHUsqy#

Again, the issue isn't muslims entering Churches or Churches providing sanctuary. The issue is muslims raising banners with their religious symbols in Churches.

The picture took a while for my old computer* to load up, but it's worth it; a very good example

*- I feel it's so old, it's could well be steam-powered
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« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2006, 03:07:18 AM »

Hadel,
Let me explain why this may be an issue for other Orthodox Christians who lived among moslems.
Here is a recent photograph of the Church of Agia Sophia:


http://community.webshots.com/photo/469169606/1469189838056206750RHUsqy#

Again, the issue isn't muslims entering Churches or Churches providing sanctuary. The issue is muslims raising banners with their religious symbols in Churches.


Yes, I understand OZGeorge; however, as you can see it is a "Turkish" flag and they have a history of disliking Christians in general not as Muslims either. We (Arabs) had the same issues centuries ago with them if you know the history. Both Muslim and Christian Arabs under the Othman rule saved Greeks, Armenians, and other Eastern European background living in Syria, Jordan and Palestine. I have an Armenian aunt saved from the Othman hands by my Great-Grand Mother .... the Muslim Arab soldiers saved her and brought her to my Great Grand-Mother to raise her as her own. Now she is my Great Aunt in Love if not by blood.
Incase you did not know, the Palestinian Christians allowed the Muslim Palestinians to pray in the Church "Church of the Nativity" and they respected the Church, prayed and did not dishonor any pictures. They also used the Church as a refuge. We have been like this for centuries. And if you check the History, Christians fought with Salah Al-Din against the Crusades because we saw them as invaders .... now a days, everything is black and white; good and bad but no understanding of the true History.
Yes, we have extremists of all religions and race and this does not help the world in any case. God Help us with all the hatred and blood shed. We are lucky God has not brought the "Big Rock" (Comet) on us since we all call ourselves of God but we act like Satan himself.... hating and killing.

In Christ,
Hadel
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« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2006, 03:16:17 AM »

Who has done this? (insulted the use of the word by Christians). My church is Antiochian (Arabic speaking). When the term Allah is used it is referring to the Christian God, becuase it's in the context of a Christian church. The "One True God" of Islam is not the same being that is the Christian God.All are welcome. What you seem to ignore is that in the case (see the OP) of this thread there's a church that's not a case of "A Catholic church being visited by Moslems" but "A Catholic Church being visited by Moslems AND being used as a mosque".

An analogy would be if you invited friends to stay at your house and they start sleeping with your wife. There's a limit to hospitality.The problem is that you've misread some of the argument.


I heard it most of my life by ignorant people who refuse to understand especially in an American High School and beyond (work area) such as "Oh you have your own religion, you are a pagan, you believe in the a God called, 'Allah'." Not understanding I am a Christian like them and understanding their are over 150 languages in this world.

Well, do me a favour, ask a Jew, "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" and then ask a Christian "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" and then ask a Muslim "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" Once you have done that let me know their answers. Thanks.

No I would not allow the conversion of my Church, that I agree, but I believe in refuge and prayers when needed by all as Jesus has taught me with True Love and not with ignorance, hatred, judgment and revenge with blood.

Jesus said to Judas before he betrayed Our Lord God, Jesus, "You do not see with your heart, you see with your mind."

In Christ,
Hadel
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« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2006, 03:49:58 AM »

as you can see it is a "Turkish" flag
Nope.
Look what's on the wall behind the pillar where the two arches meet.

Incase you did not know, the Palestinian Christians allowed the Muslim Palestinians to pray in the Church "Church of the Nativity" and they respected the Church, prayed and did not dishonor any pictures. They also used the Church as a refuge.
I did know, and I think it is good. And that is as it should be. Not dishonouring Christian Churches.
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« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2006, 06:09:48 AM »

I heard it most of my life by ignorant people who refuse to understand especially in an American High School and beyond (work area) such as "Oh you have your own religion, you are a pagan, you believe in the a God called, 'Allah'." Not understanding I am a Christian like them and understanding their are over 150 languages in this world.
No one here has made such a claim, as far as I can see, so you seem to be debating the wrong people.
Well, do me a favour, ask a Jew, "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" and then ask a Christian "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" and then ask a Muslim "Do you believe in the God of Abraham?" Once you have done that let me know their answers. Thanks.
I've already pointed out the problem of this overly simplistic approach with an example using the word "Democracy".

However to answer you specifically, the Moslem idea of Abraham and Moses is not the same as yours or mine. Moslems believe that Moses was a Moslem. They believe that the message he brought to the people was the same as that Jesus brought, then Muhammed brought; Islam. They believe however that Jews, and then Christians either acted duplictously in corrupting the message, or lost it through some other means.

In the Koran it says Moses was a Moslem...
7:143
And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers.

9:32 They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians)* want to extinguish Allah's Light (with which Muhammad  has been sent - Islamic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allah will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kafirun (disbelievers) hate (it).

Do any search of the word "Jew" in the Koran and you're likely to find a verse that isn't too flattering...
 Surah 

Al-Baqarah
Ayah [91]       
  And when it is said to them (the Jews), "Believe in what Allah has sent down," they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us." And they disbelieve in that which came after it, while it is the truth confirming what is with them. Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him to them): "Why then have you killed the Prophets of Allah aforetime, if you indeed have been believers?" 

The Jews here (according to the Koran) only 'claim' to believe in what was sent to them, but they don't.

If you have the time, I suggest you follow any of the links at the following site, which compares God to allah.
http://www.answering-islam.org/God/index.html


No I would not allow the conversion of my Church, that I agree, but I believe in refuge and prayers when needed by all as Jesus has taught me with True Love and not with ignorance, hatred, judgment and revenge with blood.
Well then that's the point of this thread, isn't it? Smiley Moslems have started turning churches into Mosques.



*- All comments in brackets have been inserted by the web-site http://www.quraan.com/index.aspx (which I hope is still up and running) and are meant to guide Moslems into a more proper understanding of whom is being spoken about. I include these too.
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