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Poll
Question: What Patriarch are you under?
Russian/MP?OCA - 15 (30.6%)
Antioch - 7 (14.3%)
EP/GOArch - 16 (32.7%)
Alexandria (Coptic)/Ethiopia - 0 (0%)
Jerusalem - 0 (0%)
Serbia - 3 (6.1%)
Albania - 0 (0%)
Georgia - 0 (0%)
Bulgaria - 1 (2%)
Sinai - 1 (2%)
Finland - 0 (0%)
Japan - 0 (0%)
ROCOR - 4 (8.2%)
Romania - 2 (4.1%)
Total Voters: 49

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authio
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« on: May 09, 2006, 07:24:41 PM »

Hey everybody!  What jurisdiction are you?  I thought I'd put up a new poll, and see what the forum looks like.  Thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2006, 07:50:55 PM »

Interesting combining OCA/ROCOR/MP...

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« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2006, 07:55:53 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9002.msg120120#msg120120 date=1147218655]
Interesting combining OCA/ROCOR/MP...
[/quote]
Yeah, it might actually be more realistic to separate the OCA/ROCOR/MP, because these are actually three separate jurisdictions, two of which (the OCA and the ROCOR) are currently not under a patriarch.  There is serious talk, however, that ROCOR will return once again to the MP's jurisdiction.
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« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2006, 08:30:02 PM »

You might want to edit w/ the Church of Sinai.  I promise you that not many people here are in that Church. Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2006, 08:56:29 PM »

Quote
Russian/OCA/ROCOR

Actually, this is a perfect option for me. I go to an ethnically Russian OCA Church, who has close contact with the ROCOR Church in our area. Grin
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2006, 09:24:09 PM »

The Russian grouping makes perfect sense despite the acrimony during the Soviet era. Those who don't consider the OCA autocephalous still count it as the American metropolia of the MP, and ROCOR will probably rejoin the MP very soon now that the USSR is long gone, in effect making it the MP's American (actually international) metropolia as the MP considers its old American dioceses now autocephalous. At least it makes sense to me. Smiley

The only canonical Ukrainian church outside the Ukraine is, like ACROD, under the EP. The one in the Ukraine is a metropolia of the MP.

Keep the Church of Sinai just for the sake of being a completist, even though the good monks probably don't go online much.

My guess is the biggest representations here are from the OCA and Antioch (who'll be No. 1?), followed by GOA (numerically the biggest Orthodox group in the States).
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2006, 10:25:36 PM »

I have no idea how to stratch a group from the list.
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2006, 10:27:03 PM »

I have no idea how to stratch a group from the list.
I would recommend you PM an admin/moderator with your request.
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2006, 11:19:09 PM »

YAY! OCA is def the most kickass jurisdiction in the history of jurisdictions, lol. And now we have a survey to prove it!
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2006, 02:32:58 AM »

What happened to Romania? The second largest church and not to mention that there are at least two of us here under Patriarch Teoctist and you forget it. Why am I not surprised? Somehow we always seem to be forgotten, probably because we're neither Greek nor Slav. Obviously, I am unable to answer this poll.

James
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2006, 02:34:15 AM »

I'm workin' on it!
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2006, 06:03:23 AM »

Hey everybody!ÂÂ  What jurisdiction are you?ÂÂ  I thought I'd put up a new poll, and see what the forum looks like.ÂÂ  Thanks!

I am ROCOR jurisdiction.
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2006, 07:32:27 AM »

It's not my section, but I thought I'd lend a hand by adding Romania to the poll...
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2006, 08:05:38 AM »

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

"Alexandria (Coptic)/Ethiopia":

The Orthodox Church of Ethiopia is autocephalous; it is no longer under the jurisdiction of the Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria. They have their own Patriarch.

Finally, was it your intention to mix OO and EO jurisdictions? If so, your selection seems kind of random, and a bit too general (e.g. Antioch and Jerusalem). If not, then  Huh what's the go with the option regarding the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria?


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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2006, 01:18:20 PM »

I consider myself under two jurisdictions: while in Romania, under ROC, but while in USA under OCA. However, out of phyletism Wink I chose ROC.
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2006, 01:56:26 PM »

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

"Alexandria (Coptic)/Ethiopia":

The Orthodox Church of Ethiopia is autocephalous; it is no longer under the jurisdiction of the Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria. They have their own Patriarch.

Finally, was it your intention to mix OO and EO jurisdictions? If so, your selection seems kind of random, and a bit too general (e.g. Antioch and Jerusalem). If not, then  Huh what's the go with the option regarding the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria?



So...I live in a city with a vibrant African immigrant community, with Orthodox from Egypt (Copts), and lots and lots of Ethiopians and Eritreans.  I put them together because...oh, hell, I don't know why.  I know they have diffferent patriarchs, but I was just putting them together because they're both OO.  The rest are EO, but we're all Orthodox, and I'm a firm believer that OO will be united to the rest of the EO by the end of our generation.  I'm good with it, I hope you are too!

Oh, and OCA4EVER!  (Only not really, but the OCA sure rocks my socks!)
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2006, 05:55:45 PM »

Quote
What happened to Romania? The second largest church and not to mention that there are at least two of us here under Patriarch Teoctist and you forget it. Why am I not surprised? Somehow we always seem to be forgotten, probably because we're neither Greek nor Slav. Obviously, I am unable to answer this poll.

James
I still feel somehow closer to the Slavic Orthodoxy for linguistical, liturgical and historical reasons.
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« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2006, 12:00:36 AM »

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

"Alexandria (Coptic)/Ethiopia":

The Orthodox Church of Ethiopia is autocephalous; it is no longer under the jurisdiction of the Coptic Patriarchate of Alexandria. They have their own Patriarch.

Finally, was it your intention to mix OO and EO jurisdictions? If so, your selection seems kind of random, and a bit too general (e.g. Antioch and Jerusalem). If not, then  Huh what's the go with the option regarding the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria?




I think the idea was to bunch some of the closely related ones together.  You'll notice OCA/MP/ROCOR together, although they're all (for the moment) technically seperate - yet closely related.  I think the poll is just grouping all the OO under "Alexandria (coptic)".
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2006, 01:34:13 AM »

I still feel somehow closer to the Slavic Orthodoxy for linguistical, liturgical and historical reasons.

I do too, but then in addition to being a convert in the Romanian Church I also have an ethnic background which includes Czech and Slovak, so I would wouldn't I? In addition my wife has Ukrainian and Russian ties so I feel closer to Slavs than Greeks (not that I have anything against the latter, before I'm shot!). I was just trying to figure out why it is that our church is the one most commonly forgotten by non-Romanian Orthodox, despite being the second largest one, after Russia.

James
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« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2006, 01:50:07 AM »

Quote
I was just trying to figure out why it is that our church is the one most commonly forgotten by non-Romanian Orthodox, despite being the second largest one, after Russia.
Well, the reason is this, I think: our Church isn't as conspicuous as other Orthodox Churches in the Western world, being not very missionary minded.
But there seems to be a certain misconception about the religious reality of Romania, too. I've met quite a few reasonably educated people that assumed that Romanians were Roman-Catholics. I just couldn't figure out why.
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« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2006, 02:33:39 AM »

In defense of the poll, a great many Romanian (but not all) Churches in America are under the jurisdiction of the OCA.  I think as more scholarship and translations into English regarding the rich spirituality of the Romanian Orthodox Church (and how beautiful those monasteries in Moldova look!) this willl change.  StareÈ› Cleopa's writings are wonderful, and he provides some of the better Orthodox apologetics works. 
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« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2006, 04:38:06 AM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=9002.msg120337#msg120337 date=1147329219]
In defense of the poll, a great many Romanian (but not all) Churches in America are under the jurisdiction of the OCA.ÂÂ  
[/quote]
I understand this, but quite a lot of us here aren't actually from the US. This is not only a problem that side of the pond either. We seem to get forgotten in Europe also and I, too, have had the reaction Augustin mentioned where people think Romanians are RCs.
Quote
I think as more scholarship and translations into English regarding the rich spirituality of the Romanian Orthodox Church (and how beautiful those monasteries in Moldova look!) this willl change.ÂÂ  StareÈ› Cleopa's writings are wonderful, and he provides some of the better Orthodox apologetics works.ÂÂ  
I think you're probably right on this. The Romanian language does not have the profile outside of Romanian and Moldova (there is definitely no such thing as 'Moldovan', whatever some people say) that languages like Russian and Greek do, so the translations are taking their time.
I take it that you are referring to the painted monasteries in Bucovina when you talk of 'those monasteries in Moldova'. My conversion is in no small part due to the monasteries of that region (which is where I worked and met my wife) and in particular to one monk from Suceava. I wish we could move back out there so that I could visit them more often, but unfortunately it appears to be my lot to remain in the UK for the moment. God willing, I will at least retire to Bucovina.

James
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« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2006, 01:47:09 PM »

James, what do you consider to be Moldova (as in a regional sense, not the nation state)?  My Romanian teacher classifed Bucovina as "Moldovan" - but I don't know what she bases her classification on.
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« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2006, 01:48:39 PM »

Isn't Moldova or Moldovia its own country (as in different from Romania)?
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« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2006, 02:05:41 PM »

Until 1814 there was a single "Moldova", stretching from the Carpathians in the West to the Dniester in the East and from what is now SW Ukraine to the northen shores of the Black Sea. Ecclesiastically the whole province was subordinate to the Metropolitan See of Iasi.
But in 1814, the eastern half of the principality, between Prut and Dniester, aka Basarabia, was occupied by Russia, becoming a Russian "gubernia" until 1918. Between 1918-1942, it was part of Romania.The ecclesiastical unity was destroyed too, the Russian Moldova becoming an eparchy of the Russian Church. Today there are two Metropolias there: the largest one,"The Metropolia of Kishinev and of the entire Moldavia", headed by Metropolitan Vladimir of Chishinau (Kishinev), a Romanian ethnic, depending on the Moscow Patriarchate; the smaller one, "The Metropolia of Basarabia", headed by Metropolitan Petru of Balti, depending on the Romanian Patriarchate. This is a point of contention between the Russian an Romanian Churches. Both sides with their arguments.
In addition to these, there is another "Metropolia of Moldova and Bucovina", having jurisdiction over the Western part of the historical Moldova. This is part of the Romanian Church.
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« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2006, 02:06:18 PM »

Isn't Moldova or Moldovia its own country (as in different from Romania)?

Yes.  There was a movement to unify with Romania that didn't go anywhere.  There is a breakaway region in the North that wants to join Ukraine.  Moldovan is Romanian written in Cyrillic per my understanding, a kind of communist attempt to separate the identities of the people.  What I am wondering is why don't the Romanian parts of Moldova rejoin Romania and the Ukrainian parts Ukraine?  Sorry if this is an insensitive question.

Anastasios
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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2006, 02:17:10 PM »

http://www.mitropolia.md/
Here you have the website of the Metropolia of Kishinev and of the entire Moldova, but, unfortunately they only have Romanian and Russian versions.
http://www.mmb.ro/
Here you have the website of the Metropolia of Moldova and Bucovina, the only version available being Romanian.
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2006, 02:32:56 PM »

Yes.  There was a movement to unify with Romania that didn't go anywhere.  There is a breakaway region in the North that wants to join Ukraine.  Moldovan is Romanian written in Cyrillic per my understanding, a kind of communist attempt to separate the identities of the people.  What I am wondering is why don't the Romanian parts of Moldova rejoin Romania and the Ukrainian parts Ukraine?  Sorry if this is an insensitive question.

Anastasios

Largely correct AFAIK. Eventually Moldova (which used to be called Moldavia in English) will rejoin Romania - the people want it* - but for practical, economic reasons they couldn't right after the break-up of the USSR and still can't (Romania is about to join the EU and admitting Moldova might scuttle that). The breakaway region in the north is Приднестровье (Transdniester). It's land that historically and geographically is part of the Ukraine - it's on the 'wrong' side of the Dniester that's the natural border with Moldova; it's actually across that river from what's really Moldova. It was given to Moldova back when nobody thought the old empire/USSR would break up (rather like the Crimea in the Ukraine - the Russians woke up one morning and found themselves technically in a foreign country). Most people who live there are Russian: Soviet transplants. They speak Russian, not Ukrainian. I see their point. They're not Romanian and don't want to be. But Moldova refuses to let them go. I'm not sure if they want to join the Ukraine - they may want to be as they de facto are, a Sovietesque ethnic-Russian country unto themselves.

In Soviet times 'Moldovan' was Romanian written in Cyrillic for the reason you gave. I think it's written in the Latin alphabet like ordinary Romanian now.

*The Moldovan flag is nearly identical to the Romanian but with a coat of arms in the middle.
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« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2006, 05:31:22 AM »

Why is the OCA losing out now!  Come come, we grew more than any other Christian group last year!  6.5% according to the National Council of Churches!
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« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2006, 09:10:00 AM »

Why is the OCA losing out now!ÂÂ  Come come, we grew more than any other Christian group last year!ÂÂ  6.5% according to the National Council of Churches!

Really? Interesting. Do you have a link to the report?

Otherwise, it's pretty clear why the OCA/Russian-in-America category would have fewer on an English-speaking Web site. 1) The GOA alone has about 4 times the number of communicants (according to the NCC); 2) Your poll also groups the entire EP with the GOA, which bumps the potential number up quite a bit. All told, the EP has at least 2 million members in English-speaking countries (and that number doesn't really include the truly "nominal" ones...if we went just by estimates of Greek populations in Australia, Britain, USA, and Canada, the numbers would be quite high -- not to mention the non-Greek Churches in these countries that fall under the omophorion of Constantinople!).
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« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2006, 02:35:30 AM »

Yes.  There was a movement to unify with Romania that didn't go anywhere.  There is a breakaway region in the North that wants to join Ukraine.  Moldovan is Romanian written in Cyrillic per my understanding, a kind of communist attempt to separate the identities of the people.  What I am wondering is why don't the Romanian parts of Moldova rejoin Romania and the Ukrainian parts Ukraine?  Sorry if this is an insensitive question.

Anastasios

Not quite right. Besarabia was part of the nation of Moldova prior to Romanian unification. Moldova was made up from three regions, Moldova proper (in Romania), Bucovina and Besarabia. Southern Bucovina is still in Romania and the people there certainly consider themselves Moldovan. Northern Bucovina was annexed by Stalin and remains part of the Ukraine. Besarabia was also annexed. Most of it remains in the Republic of Moldova but the southern portion is part of the Ukraine. The breakaway region of Moldova is not in the north but the east. It is called Transdnistria and was never part of the historic Moldovan state and is not ethnically Romanian. The fact that it is part of the Republic of Moldova is due to its having been inside the borders of the Soviet state of Moldova - it was added onto the region after it was annexed.

As for Moldovan (the language), it is a political nonsense. There is no difference at all (other than a minor difference in accent - 'h's tend to be pronounced somewhat harder) between 'Moldovan' and the Romanian spoken in Moldova proper. It was part of the policy of the Soviet Union to try to encourage Romanians in the region to believe that they were actually Slavs and that they spoke a distinct language. The Republic of Moldova no longer uses Cyrillic to render Romanian either, though they did for quite some time (well into the '90s) after the fall of the Soviet Union. I know many people who long for the day that reunification occurs. Many of the people of my wife's gandparents' generation had their families seperated by the artificial borders which sprang up after WWII.

James

P.S.

Your final suggestion sounds sensible to me. Maybe if Moldova rejoins Romania there could be a land swap, southern Besarabia for Transdnistria? Of course, that would mean giving Romania back her northern Black Sea coastline, though, but as Transdnistria is an industrial region it still seems like a fair exchange to me. I doubt Romania will ever get the rest of Bucovina back, though. I worked on the border there and know that there are many Romanians on the northern side of it (they come to the market in Siret) but I can't see what Romania could offer the Ukraine in return and I doubt they'll just give up the land, illegally annexed or not.
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« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2006, 09:32:48 PM »

No way!  The OCA can't lose!
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2006, 12:34:57 AM »

Up until the forties there even was a "Metropolia of Cernauti and Bukowina" autonomous during the Austrian rule and then under the jurisdiction of the Romanian Patriarchate
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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2006, 03:57:56 PM »

By the way: Finland is not a patriarchate, but an autonomous church under EP. The head of the Finnish orthodox church is archbishop Leo of Karelia and All Finland.
And I´m Roman patriachate...
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