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Author Topic: Turkey pulls envoys to Canada, France  (Read 7719 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 08, 2006, 02:15:24 PM »

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/cbc/s/08052006/3/world-turkey-pulls-envoys-canada-france.html

Turkey has recalled its ambassadors to Canada and France to protest moves by the governments of those two countries to describe the mass killings of Armenians 90 years ago as genocide.
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The diplomatic move, expected to last "for a short time for consultations over the latest developments about the baseless allegations of Armenian genocide," was announced Monday.

The envoy to Ottawa, Aydemir Erman, is already back in Ankara, a Turkish government official told CBC News.

Countries around the world have been putting pressure on Turkey's government to acknowledge what happened between 1915 and 1923, when an estimated 1.5 million Armenians died.

Armenians have insisted their people were systematically killed during and after the First World War as the Ottoman Empire tried to quell the population in eastern Turkey.

Turkish rulers have long insisted that the death count was much lower, and that the deaths were the result of an uprising by Armenian militants as opposed to a government eradication campaign.

Harper's statement welcomed

On April 21, Prime Minister Stephen Harper repeated his support for past House of Commons and Senate votes that the deaths should be recognized as genocide.

"I and my party supported those resolutions and continue to recognize them today," Harper said.

Atom Egoyan, a Canadian film-maker of Armenian descent whose film Ararat traces the impact of the genocide, told CBC News that Harper's statement meant a lot to the Armenian community.

"I felt that it was an extraordinary moment to have that recognition at that level," he said in a Newsworld interview Monday.

"The reality of this is something that generations of Armenians have had to live with. It's been extraordinarily painful."

France making genocide denial a crime

For its part, France is considering draft legislation that would make it illegal to deny the Armenian deaths were a result of genocide.

French politicians have already voted to recognize the killings as genocide.

The international campaign to press Turkey to acknowledge what happened nine decades ago comes as the country seeks entry to the European Union.

Among other things, Turkey must agree to abide by European Union standards when it comes to human rights and justice - areas in which its government continues to attract criticism.
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2006, 04:27:56 PM »

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/cbc/s/08052006/3/world-turkey-pulls-envoys-canada-france.html

Turkey has recalled its ambassadors to Canada and France to protest moves by the governments of those two countries to describe the mass killings of Armenians 90 years ago as genocide.

I dont understand, on what grounds can Turkey deny it was an act of genocide?
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2006, 04:30:42 PM »

If the EU is willing to pull the plug on Serbia and Montenegro for failing to turn over those accused of past crimes to the ICTY, the only non-hypocritcal thing to do for Europe is to cut off Turkey until they start living up to the standards of human rights for the EU. 
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2006, 05:48:46 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8997.msg119925#msg119925 date=1147120242]
If the EU is willing to pull the plug on Serbia and Montenegro for failing to turn over those accused of past crimes to the ICTY, the only non-hypocritcal thing to do for Europe is to cut off Turkey until they start living up to the standards of human rights for the EU.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

Either way, Turkey will join EU before Serbia , "Turkey will be the muslim trojan horse in the EU" as said by mr Gaddhafi
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2006, 07:54:26 PM »

While I believe and agree that the Turks started a campaign of ethnic cleansing in Asia Minor, I think that France is totally wrong to make it a crime to deny that the deaths came from genocide.  Frankly, I think that's just disgusting.  People are entitled to their own views, you cannot make an opposing view illegal.  On what grounds?

God willing, the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, and the Pontian Greek Genocide, will come quickly.  There are uncontestable documents, in both the French archives, and the German ones, who know that there was a systematic program. 

Someone mentioned Atom Egoyan's Ararat.  There is a haunting line in that film, where a woman goes, "I MUST TELL you what my eyes have seen, so that you will understand the evil that man does to man". 

No one is laying blame on the people of today for the actions of their predecessors.   Their blame lies in denying the faults of their predecessors, and excusing them.  No one is perfect. We can all learn from these actions, and the actions in Rwanda, and the actions in Germany in the 2nd World War...these things have to be recognized and told, so that they are not allowed to happen again. 

God rest the souls of all the victims of ethnic cleansing, wherever they may be...May He place them in the company of His saints.
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2006, 09:00:56 PM »

ÂÂ  People are entitled to their own views, you cannot make an opposing view illegal.ÂÂ

You would allow for Nazism or KKK to be legal?
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2006, 09:18:33 PM »

While I believe and agree that the Turks started a campaign of ethnic cleansing in Asia Minor, I think that France is totally wrong to make it a crime to deny that the deaths came from genocide.  Frankly, I think that's just disgusting.  People are entitled to their own views, you cannot make an opposing view illegal.  On what grounds?



If denying the Jewish Holocaust took place is illegal, which it is. Than so should denying the Armenian genocide be illegal.
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2006, 09:32:54 PM »

If denying the Jewish Holocaust took place is illegal, which it is. Than so should denying the Armenian genocide be illegal.

Having said that, what are the repracutions for denying the holocaust? The Iranian president seems fine....
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2006, 09:36:28 PM »

If denying the Jewish Holocaust took place is illegal, which it is. Than so should denying the Armenian genocide be illegal.

But all such laws are wrong. It is a violation of not only freedom of speech, but also of freedom of conscience and freedom of thought. I'm simply happy that in this country we have protection against such absurd and totalitarian anti-thought crime laws.
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2006, 09:44:37 PM »

Having said that, what are the repracutions for denying the holocaust? The Iranian president seems fine....

Well, those laws do not exist in Iran.
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2006, 09:54:04 PM »

Frankly, I think that's just disgusting.ÂÂ  People are entitled to their own views, you cannot make an opposing view illegal.ÂÂ  On what grounds?

The Truth? Is that grounds enough to make 'lying' about a 'fact' illegal? Just asking...
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« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2006, 09:58:33 PM »

But all such laws are wrong. It is a violation of not only freedom of speech, but also of freedom of conscience and freedom of thought. I'm simply happy that in this country we have protection against such absurd and totalitarian anti-thought crime laws.

But I believe freedom of thoughts should be limited. The freedom to discriminate and possibly insult another race or people by expressing your thoughts should be illegal. Look at what the Iranian president did by denying the holocaust.
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2006, 09:59:17 PM »

I had relatives who died in the Armenian Genocide and I hope and pray that one day the Turks are forced to recognize and account for what they have done, not only to the Armenians, but also to the Greeks, Assyrians, Cypriots and countless others who were victimized by them.

That being said, I also have to admit that I do not feel comfortable with laws making it illegal for a private person to deny a genocide.  I am a strong supporter of free speech and freedom of conscience.  I don't believe governments should be able to dictate what people say or think.  Recall the stories which have come out recently (whether true or not, I don't know) about clergymen being arrested or cited for preaching sermons against homosexuality.  A government which bans the denial of genocide among its private citizens can also ban the expression of other beliefs, including beliefs held by you or me.
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2006, 10:04:54 PM »

Freedom of thought and speech is important, but there are just some things you cannot say. Just like you musnt use vulgar language inside your home around children and such, you should not be expressing racism, whether you feel it or not. Denying something publically such as the Armenian genocide is absolutely ridiculous, beyound ignorance.

You would allow for Nazism or KKK to be legal?

I see no one has answered my question here, considering it is a type of freedom of speach or expression.

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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2006, 10:22:44 PM »

Quote from: Sloga on Today at 09:00:56 PM
You would allow for Nazism or KKK to be legal?

I see no one has answered my question here, considering it is a type of freedom of speach or expression.

Absolutely, and on the flip side I would oppose the outlawing of the Communist Party in this Country...it is one's right to choose their political beliefs, affiliation, and speech...no matter how unpopular, or at odds with yours, they might be. To quote Voltaire, with whom I wholeheartedly agree on this matter, 'I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.'
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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2006, 10:59:00 PM »

Absolutely, and on the flip side I would oppose the outlawing of the Communist Party in this Country...it is one's right to choose their political beliefs, affiliation, and speech...no matter how unpopular, or at odds with yours, they might be. To quote Voltaire, with whom I wholeheartedly agree on this matter, 'I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.'

well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and thats that because I would never allow for a Nazi party or Ku Klux Klan to exist if it was up to me.
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2006, 11:30:51 PM »

well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree and thats that because I would never allow for a Nazi party or Ku Klux Klan to exist if it was up to me.

Well, you have a right to that belief as well, as distasteful as it may be...but if your opinion ever gained the force of law, that would a problem...
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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2006, 11:36:41 PM »

but if your opinion ever gained the force of law, that would a problem...

How can you make that claim? Your saying that by allowing anti-semitism, racial intolerance, racial superiority etc... tat the world would be a better place? please explain as I dont understand how that would work or be the right thing to do

If it seems im coming from a radical opinion, Im not. But I believe that not all thoughts or beleifs should be expressed, a line needs to be drawn somewhere.
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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2006, 11:41:24 PM »

What I wrote had absolutely nothing to do with Naziism or KKK.  Do I believe in those things?  No.  Do I believe actions of hate should be illegal?  Yes.  Do I believe that denying the veracity of something in words, should be illegal?  Absolutely not. ÂÂ

The Holocaust.  Did it happen?  Yes, I believe it did.  Do I think that someone who is uncertain, or does not believe it, should be imprisoned for that?  Absolutely not. The Genocide in Asia Minor.  Do I believe it happened. Yes, I do.  Do I believe that those who deny it should be imprisoned?  No, I absolutely do not.   ÃƒÆ’‚Â

I'm not advocating for hatred, I'm not advocating for violence, but I am advocating the freewill that God has given us.  I cannot, by force, make a person believe in something that they do not want to believe. ÂÂ
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2006, 11:47:10 PM »

And furthermore, Sloga, making it illegal to deny the Armenian Genocide, suits those of us who believe it happened just fine.  What, pray tell, would you think if the government decided to make it illegal to deny something you are opposed to? How would you feel then, about giving state power that kind of jurisdiction over you to tell you, "Oh, you feel strongly against this, but too bad.  If you continue to feel strongly against it, we'll throw you in prison, because it's illegal to be against it now"? 

The law against the genocide...no problem.  But if this is  a catalyst, to start suppressing people's  FREE beliefs, what happens then?  What happens if this is just the beginning, and how would you feel when you're not on the pro side, but on the con? 
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2006, 11:48:36 PM »

I'm not advocating for hatred, I'm not advocating for violence, but I am advocating the freewill that God has given us.  I cannot, by force, make a person believe in something that they do not want to believe. ÂÂ

ahhh, Brother i agree with everything you just said, but the difference between my post and yours is that I believe they know that the genocide occured, but are denying it just to bother the survivors and victims. I get the feeling that you see it as they are in denial or are uninformed, which may be possible but I believe they know that the genocide occured and are simply denying it for the sake of bothering people. A misunderstanding between us.
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2006, 11:52:56 PM »

The law against the genocide...no problem.ÂÂ  But if this isÂÂ  a catalyst, to start suppressing people'sÂÂ  FREE beliefs, what happens then?ÂÂ  What happens if this is just the beginning, and how would you feel when you're not on the pro side, but on the con?ÂÂ  

Once again, I am looking at it from a point where they know it occured and are denying it for mischevious reasons. I have no agreement in controlling someones general beliefs, but once again, I believe that a line must be drawn somewhere else. Maybe the KKK and Nazis should be legal, but show no support for that belief in public? I dont know, but I do know once people begin to become offended that problems will arise.
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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2006, 12:05:28 AM »

Absolutely, and on the flip side I would oppose the outlawing of the Communist Party in this Country...it is one's right to choose their political beliefs, affiliation, and speech...no matter how unpopular, or at odds with yours, they might be. To quote Voltaire, with whom I wholeheartedly agree on this matter, 'I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.'
GiC...You`re not getting soft on me now, are you?
 I am one of your biggest supporters but, I have to ask ,do you feel the need to extend this sentiment to Islam and Muslims? Just curious?
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« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2006, 12:15:07 AM »

How can you make that claim?

Because such a posistion is an affront to the freedoms and liberties that we hold dear. There can be no clearer indication of the rise of a totalitarian government than the instituting of thought-related laws. To quote a poem attributed to the German Pastor Martin Niemöller about the rise of totalitarianism in Germany:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Totalitarianism must be stopped when it first rears it's ugly head; if one waits too long it will be impossible to stop without great war and blood-shed, and maybe not even then...but what choice does one have at that point?

Quote
Your saying that by allowing anti-semitism, racial intolerance, racial superiority etc... tat the world would be a better place? please explain as I dont understand how that would work or be the right thing to do

As to how it works look at the United States, our Courts have repeatedly upheld the freedom of speech, thought, and belief, for organizations ranging from news papers to Neo-Nazi political movements. A society's support of freedom of speech can be measured by considering what rights and privileges it gives to the most unpopular of opinions.

As far as why that would be the right thing to do, why is freedom better than slavery? Why is liberty of more consequence than life? Because without freedom and liberty life is not worth living. If we fail to give communists and nazis the freedom of conscience and speech in our society, how are we any better than they? If we're going to eliminate these fundamental freedoms anyway, why not go the full 9 yards and simply become nazis? I mean our economy and society would probably run more efficiently than it does today.

Quote
If it seems im coming from a radical opinion, Im not. But I believe that not all thoughts or beleifs should be expressed, a line needs to be drawn somewhere.

To someone born and raised in a Republic founded upon the value of freedom, liberty, and self-government, your beliefs sound both radical and dangerous...as is any affront to liberty. Actions should be subject to law, not thought.

ahhh, Brother i agree with everything you just said, but the difference between my post and yours is that I believe they know that the genocide occured, but are denying it just to bother the survivors and victims. I get the feeling that you see it as they are in denial or are uninformed, which may be possible but I believe they know that the genocide occured and are simply denying it for the sake of bothering people. A misunderstanding between us.

You dont have a right to have people be nice to you or to have people like you. They are free to think negatively about you and criticize or mock you; and, likewise, you enjoy the same freedom in regard to them. It is only if things cross the line into actions that the issue becomes a problem. There is a place where a line needs to be drawn...it is the law that passes between thought and speech on one side and hostile action on the other.
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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2006, 12:18:31 AM »

GiC...You`re not getting soft on me now, are you?
 I am one of your biggest supporters but, I have to ask ,do you feel the need to extend this sentiment to Islam and Muslims? Just curious?

As I have always said, I believe that it is necessary we extend this right to moslems within our society, we can't sacrifice a free society to defeat Islam or we become just as bad as they are (well maybe not that bad, but we get closer to them than I fell comfortable doing)...but outside our society, they're fair game. Wink
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2006, 12:35:57 AM »

To someone born and raised in a Republic founded upon the value of freedom, liberty, and self-government, your beliefs sound both radical and dangerous...as is any affront to liberty. Actions should be subject to law, not thought.

If my belief that organizations built on fascist ideoligies such as neo-Nazis and the KKK should be banned makes me a radical, I guess I'm a radical then, and I have no problem with that. I came to Canada at the age of two, so basically you could say I am born and raised in a "free" society. I know from my own experience that racism is a problem in North America. Instead of dealing with the racists, they need to deal with the social groups promoting such unbelievable acts of prejudice.

You say actions should be subject to law and not thought, which I couldnt agree more with but many of us know that thoughts often lead to actions. But once a synogogue is heavily vandalized and the gravestones are destroyed, law cannot reverse the psychological and social results that a Jew may feel.
Think about if your church was heavily vandalized, how would you feel knowing there are people out there that hate you because you are of some faith or race?

No tolerance for intolerance...
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« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2006, 12:45:22 AM »

You say actions should be subject to law and not thought, which I couldnt agree more with but many of us know that thoughts often lead to actions. But once a synogogue is heavily vandalized and the gravestones are destroyed, law cannot reverse the psychological and social results that a Jew may feel.
Think about if your church was heavily vandalized, how would you feel knowing there are people out there that hate you because you are of some faith or race?

It is not the responsibility of law to prevent crime, but rather to enforce justice in the event that a crime is committed. Once you cross that line you open up a Pandora's box by which untold numbers of government abuses can be instituted in the name of 'security,' which is an enemy of liberty. If you want security my advice is to carry a firearm...you'll be more secure than if you relied on the state and you will have infinitely more freedoms.

Quote
No tolerance for intolerance...

is the epitome of hypocracy. What right do you have to expect people, whom you refuse to tolerate, to tolerate you?
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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2006, 12:49:27 AM »

It is not the responsibility of law to prevent crime, but rather to enforce justice in the event that a crime is committed. Once you cross that line you open up a Pandora's box by which untold numbers of government abuses can be instituted in the name of 'security,' which is an enemy of liberty. If you want security my advice is to carry a firearm...you'll be more secure than if you relied on the state and you will have infinitely more freedoms.

is the epitome of hypocracy. What right do you have to expect people, whom you refuse to tolerate, to tolerate you?

I guess what I meant to say there is no tolerance for racial intolerance

I will not tolerate racism, but others will tolerate me because I do not partake in racist activities, therefor I am not a racist Tongue
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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2006, 10:55:49 AM »

It seems that racism, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.  If a green person insults a blue person - it is racism, since the media say so and all the psycho-babblists too.  But if a blue person attacks and kills a green person, then it's just a crime.
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« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2006, 11:01:01 AM »

You would allow for Nazism or KKK to be legal?

Of course it should be legal! No opinion/idea should be illegal. That said, the actions that some of these ideas could result in should, and are ALREADY illegal.
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« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2006, 06:23:13 PM »

Absolutely, and on the flip side I would oppose the outlawing of the Communist Party in this Country...it is one's right to choose their political beliefs, affiliation, and speech..

The Empire you so fondly look back to didn't allow free association and free speech, so why should modern governments?
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« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2006, 12:20:17 PM »

Turkey goes on offensive

Erdogan pressures PM on Pontic memorial and Muslim minority in Thrace

Turkey is unhappy about a new monument in Thessaloniki marking the genocide of Pontic Greeks, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan told Greek Premier Costas Karamanlis during a meeting in Vienna yesterday as Ankara steps up pressure in its disputes with Athens.

The two men met at the sidelines of a summit of European and Latin American leaders. The meeting had been requested by Erdogan and he used it to raise a number of points which seem to be aggravating Ankara.

The most significant of these was the unveiling last Saturday of the monument commemorating the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Pontic Greeks during World War I and in the Asia Minor catastrophe of 1922 at the hands of Turkish forces.

Erdogan told Karamanlis there was a lot of sensitivity to this sort of issue in Turkey, sources said. Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said the erection of the monument “cast a shadow over friendly relations between the two countries.”

Erdogan also broached the subject of the treatment of the Muslim minority in Thrace, northeastern Greece.

Ankara’s objections are the latest in a series of complaints which Athens believes are actually efforts by Turkey to divert attention from European Union pressure on the EU candidate to meet the bloc’s membership obligations. “History has been written and cannot be rewritten,” said Evangelos Antonaros, the alternate government spokesman.

“The objective in Greek-Turkish relations is to make use of the opportunities offered by Turkey’s European outlook to build a future that will benefit both people and the region,” he said.

Publicly, Karamanlis insisted that no new issues were raised during the 45-minute meeting, saying it focused mainly on economic issues, such as tourism.

Meanwhile, it was revealed that Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis will attend a journalism conference on June 10 in Istanbul, where she will meet with Gul.
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« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2006, 01:38:33 PM »

I have to ask ,do you feel the need to extend this sentiment to Islam and Muslims? Just curious?

And why not? If there was no Islam, there would be no islamic terrorism. If there was no islam, the Middle East would largely still be Christian, and modernised (ex. Lebanon). If there was no islam, there would still be two tall towers standing in NY and many people still breathing in those towers, many people still living- who are now dead in Afghanistan or Iraq. If there was no Islam, there would be no Turkey. In fact, "Turkey" does not exist. They can call it what they want, but I prefer to call it "stolen land". Wow, many of the world's problems would not be here if this religion did not exist or choose to go on such an ignorant path.
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« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2006, 03:48:51 PM »

Quote
If there was no Islam, there would be no Turkey. In fact, "Turkey" does not exist.

The Turkic peoples are a vast group stretching from China, through Central Asia, Russia and into modern Turkey - their empire would have existed regardless of Islam. 
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« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2006, 04:01:48 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8997.msg120710#msg120710 date=1147636131]
The Turkic peoples are a vast group stretching from China, through Central Asia, Russia and into modern Turkey - their empire would have existed regardless of Islam.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

Infact, a large portion of genes in Bulgaria are Turkic, as the Bulgars were a turkic tribe. However, the attack of Constantinople and the invasion of the Balkans was for the "expansion of Islam", so theoretically if Turks were not muslim perhaps they would have invaded the middle east, which was muslim. But this way, if they were going to invade a non-islamic land, it had to have been the Balkans as the land from the south, east was already muslim.
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Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2006, 04:50:04 PM »

Quote
However, the attack of Constantinople and the invasion of the Balkans was for the "expansion of Islam", so theoretically if Turks were not muslim perhaps they would have invaded the middle east, which was muslim. But this way, if they were going to invade a non-islamic land, it had to have been the Balkans as the land from the south, east was already muslim.

I think speading Islam was a much a mission of the Turks as spreading Christianity was for crusaders - for rhetorical purposes it sounded nice, maybe even motivated many people to fight, but did the people in power use religion as anything other than something to manipulate for their own (secular) ends?  I think the cases of Orthodox Christians slaughtering eachother (i.e the Balkans wars) shows that many nations that "fighting for their faith" really aren't. 
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« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2006, 07:51:11 PM »

Quote
think speading Islam was a much a mission of the Turks as spreading Christianity was for crusaders

If I recall, I believe the point of the crusades were to "destroy the enemies of the Pope". So maybe spreading catholicism, but not christianity as a whole.

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8997.msg120719#msg120719 date=1147639804]
the cases of Orthodox Christians slaughtering eachother (i.e the Balkans wars) shows that many nations that "fighting for their faith" really aren't.ÂÂ  
[/quote]

The only Orthodox vs Orthodox case in the balkans was when Bulgaria attacked Serbia and Greece, a war that barely lasted at all, and it wasnt what you call "slaughtering". The reason why Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians (to some extent) and Romanians are united in the Balkans is orthodoxy.

Look back about 500 years and you will see that Orthodox in the Balkans was defended jointly by forming the Order of the Dragon, with famous members such as Prince Lazar, Milos Obilic and of course Vlad the Impaler.

I dont really see how Orthodox people have "slaughtered" eachother in the Balkans???
« Last Edit: May 14, 2006, 09:47:54 PM by Sloga » Logged

Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2006, 10:56:40 PM »

Fine. Asia Minor is now under the domain of the Turkic people as they stole it and were succesful. As others have said, if they really want to join the EU:

1. let them admit the genocides they commited actually happened.

2. Allow Agia Sophia to be a church (ie. patriarchal church of Constantinople)

3. become a true, modern (not modernised) democracy- so that means if I want to go to a specific school...oh say a place like Chalki, no one would be able to stop me or if the church wanted to reopen soem ancient church such as Chora they would be able to.

like thats ever going to happen though. When elephants flie.
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« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2006, 11:13:12 PM »

Fine. Asia Minor is now under the domain of the Turkic people as they stole it and were succesful. As others have said, if they really want to join the EU:

1. let them admit the genocides they commited actually happened.

2. Allow Agia Sophia to be a church (ie. patriarchal church of Constantinople)

3. become a true, modern (not modernised) democracy- so that means if I want to go to a specific school...oh say a place like Chalki, no one would be able to stop me or if the church wanted to reopen soem ancient church such as Chora they would be able to.

like thats ever going to happen though. When elephants flie.

you should be EU envoy to Turkey  Grin Grin

You neer know about Hagia Sofia though, I have read lots of "prophets" predicting that it will once agan be a Orthodox Church...
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Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2006, 11:20:49 PM »

you should be EU envoy to TurkeyÂÂ  Grin Grin

You neer know about Hagia Sofia though, I have read lots of "prophets" predicting that it will once agan be a Orthodox Church...

That would be fun! I would cream them with demands and force them to admit it all and they wouldn't be able to say back to me dramatically: "lies- all lies!" Smiley

As for Agia Sofia, I've read somewhere that St. Kosmas the Aitolian prophecied this as well as a few other saints have also. Man, if only the "Megali Idea" worked out...
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« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2006, 11:25:56 PM »

That would be fun! I would cream them with demands and force them to admit it all and they wouldn't be able to say back to me dramatically: "lies- all lies!" Smiley

As for Agia Sofia, I've read somewhere that St. Kosmas the Aitolian prophecied this as well as a few other saints have also. Man, if only the "Megali Idea" worked out...

btw, how much $$ will it take for you to speed up Serbia's integration to Eu ?  Wink

The same month it (if) converts back, I will be visiting it, and im in Mississauga so maybe we can go together Tongue

and as for your Megali idea, we all know what happened when Serbs tried to unite all Serbs...i dont suggest Greece try the same  Roll Eyes
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Христе Боже, Распети и Свети!

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Justin Popovic
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« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2006, 11:44:29 PM »

 Offbeat News
Sunday, May 14, 2006
Turk sweet makers claim just desserts in Cyprus row
      
 
     

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkey's baklava makers are up in arms over European Union posters presenting their sweet, sticky dessert as the national dish of ethnically Greek Cyprus.

"Baklava is definitely more Turkish than Cypriot," Halil Dincerler, owner of Haci Sayid baklava makers, told Reuters.

The "baklava battle" is the latest irritant in relations between EU-member Cyprus and EU-candidate Turkey, which hopes to become the EU's first predominantly Muslim state.

Austria, holding the EU presidency, served up the culinary clanger earlier this week in a poster for Europe Day showcasing sweets from EU members.

An organizer for the Austrian presidency said the posters had been distributed before anyone noticed the offending dessert and noted a change in orders at some events marking Europe Day.

"Cyprus has other sweets so we served ladies fingers," he said, referring to a fried sweet dipped in syrup.

An aide to Turkey's EU chief negotiator Ali Babacan has promised to raise the baklava dispute at EU headquarters in Brussels, Turkish newspaper Hurriyet said.

Another Istanbul sweets producer said there would be a demonstration Saturday in Istanbul's historic Sultanahmet district, with more than 200 baklava makers expected to attend.

Cyprus joined the EU in 2004 under its internationally recognized Greek-Cypriot government. Ankara refuses to recognize the EU state and backs a breakaway Turkish Cypriot enclave.

In comments unlikely to sweeten Ankara's mood, the head of the Cyprus Chefs Association disputed Turkey's claim to sole rights for baklava.

"The basis of Turkish cuisine was Byzantine cuisine," said Yiannakis Agapiou, referring to the Greek-speaking empire once centered on Istanbul and which fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453.

Agapiou said "personally I think baklava is a sweet served in Turkey" but noted "Turkey cannot claim it exclusively as its own. It is made in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, several countries in the region."

Cyprus has been split on ethnic lines since Turkey invaded in 1974 after a short-lived Greek-Cypriot coup on the island.

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« Reply #42 on: May 15, 2006, 10:34:30 AM »

Oh boy - let's draw the battle lines over baklava.  If they must be tossed about, then I shall stand in the front lines ("take one for the team..."  or 50, in the case of baklava Wink   ).
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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2006, 03:35:08 AM »

Fine. Asia Minor is now under the domain of the Turkic people as they stole it and were succesful. As others have said, if they really want to join the EU:

1. let them admit the genocides they commited actually happened.

2. Allow Agia Sophia to be a church (ie. patriarchal church of Constantinople)

3. become a true, modern (not modernised) democracy- so that means if I want to go to a specific school...oh say a place like Chalki, no one would be able to stop me or if the church wanted to reopen soem ancient church such as Chora they would be able to.
like thats ever going to happen though. When elephants flie.

/quote]
The problem with turkey lies in  a statement in one of your previous posts.In the STOLLEN LAND.They posessing  a land that they should  not posess it at first.The turkish pollicy for centuries now is very obvious.  They try to vanquish any Greek and christian sign and monument in their country.
They will never be a democratic  western  state.How can you be something that hate so much and try to destroy throughout your barbarian history. 
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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2006, 04:19:10 AM »

Oh boy - let's draw the battle lines over baklava.  If they must be tossed about, then I shall stand in the front lines ("take one for the team..."  or 50, in the case of baklava Wink  ÃƒÆ’‚ ).

I believe that in this the Turks are quite wrong. Baclava is not Turkish but Roman, 'Byzantine' if you like. It definitely pre-dates the Ottoman conquest and is found all through the Balkans with minor variations, for instance in Romania where they use walnuts and some alcohol and the pastry is slightly different to filo. Now, there is a Turkish desert found in the southern regions of Romania called cataif. Maybe the Turks should claim that instead of baclava? Wink

Not that any of this matters, of course. It reminds me of the cheese stealing conversation I had with SouthSerb and others some time back. (Incidentally, my research into cascaval has lead me to discover that it's a Roman cheese and exists still in Italy where it is called cacicavallo, so I was right - Serbs are cheese thiefs!!! Grin)

James
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