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Author Topic: Re: Heresy?-Jurisdiction  (Read 9295 times) Average Rating: 0
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The young fogey
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« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2006, 09:11:08 AM »

Ignoring the bait, I'll humbly suggest, Mother Anastasia (using the title out of courtesy), that you should change your 'Jurisdiction' listing from 'Western Rite Orthodox', which you are provably not, to something like 'Independent Church', which you are. That's a matter of honesty and returning the respect that some Orthodox are showing you.
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« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2006, 10:35:53 AM »

And I sympathize with you too,  and forgive your ignorance as well. Smiley

Please keep your sympathy---and your revisionist, twisted form of ecclesiology--to yourself.

Also, please be accurate in your self-description, by indicating that you are an 'Independent Church'.
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« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2006, 07:33:05 PM »

1.  I have looked at your website and find it interesting but not very clear as to who the Archbishop was who called your  husband to become a bishop according to your rite.

2.  It is obvious however, that your Rite is not one that we are in communion with
Quote

1.The reason our web site does not contain this information is because it about discernment, and not meant for those seeking jurisdictional correctness.

2. Thank you for your pm explaining our position.  Based on the information you gave me, I see that we are, in the eyes of the institutional community,  Independent Catholic Orthodox, and judging from the young ones' response to that, Balaam's donkey would be better received.

Perhaps now we can go on to discussing Orthodox/Catholic doctrines.  I would really enjoy learning more  about  your perspective, and  what viewpoints have wedged this One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church  apart.


p.s. Has anyone considered how Theotokos is suffering in this moment?

Does anyone care?

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« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2006, 01:06:06 AM »

I should have split these two topics a while back, as the topic on Mother Anastasia's jurisdiction has interferred with the main topic of the main thread.  The original topic of heresy will still be in the original thread, and this one is probably nearing it's end too.

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« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2006, 02:59:49 AM »

Mother Anastasia,


The problem is that we cannot possibly join ourselves to those who are full of rancor, bitterness  and division. We have looked, and looked, and looked.  As well as weeping many tears. ÂÂ

So you consider all Canonical Orthodox being full of rancor, bitterness and division??? In particular, all Orthodox hierarchs?
Well, here in USA, I am aware about convert priests coming form different backgrounds. They looked, looked and have been accepted. In particular, a former Franciscan of the 3rd Order became an brilliant and extraordinary member of UOC-USA clergy, a format to all Orthodox.
But all those people, actually clergy and laity, came to different Orthodox jurisdictions with a pure heart, with a strong belief in Orthodox Truth. They did not come up with any "third ways". As an Ecumenist, I found the creation of "third ways" especially dangerous, because this is the way from unity in truth, the "right" to break out from the Church and the attempt to create a heresy and to justify doing so.
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« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2006, 08:25:13 AM »

As Mother Anastasia (again, using the title out of courtesy), the deacon/nun married to a vagante bishop, has returned to play her game of arguing with real Orthodox that she's Orthodox when she's obviously not:

Nobody is saying anything about the eternal salvation of this woman, her husband, the anecdotal poor Alaskan woman scandalised by the behaviour of church people, et al.

No, most here are asking her to stop playing this game and admit she's not really Orthodox.

The groups she cited in her postings so far this morning are vagantes like her church, not Orthodox, and don't prove anything. The Sobornopravna group in Cleveland looks more like the real Orthodox than her group but that doesn't mean anything.

People have the right to be wrong. If Mother Anastasia and her husband, former Roman Catholics, want to play church by themselves in the desert, that's fine. The holiest Orthodox won't speculate whether they're hellbound; that's not for us on earth to know or decide. They will say, however, that they're not in the same church as them. Not just jurisdiction, church. So just don't call it Orthodox, and especially not in a place like this. If done knowingly, that's just arrogant, which I get a strong whiff of in her sweet-sounding prose.

It's as rude as if I, a white man, went on an Indian reservation (any of them, regardless of tribe) dressed in buckskins, wearing braids and calling myself something like Big Eagle Feather, saying 'Hau!' to everybody I met.

Dear, that's how you look to the Orthodox.

P.S. Some of what her church's site has is true and sweet but overall it feels more like charismatic RCs on peyote than any actual Orthodox I've seen.
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« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2006, 09:18:09 AM »

Question: how can a Franciscan Tertiary be "pre-schism"?
On second thoughts, never mind.
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« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2006, 09:58:11 AM »

Question: how can a Franciscan Tertiary be "pre-schism"?

On second thought, never mind.

Exactly. They're not a pre-schism reconstruction nor really Western Rite Orthodox (who aren't pre-schism re-enactors - they use things from Western Catholicism and Anglicanism and edit them to make them agree with Byzantine theology). They're former Roman Catholic Franciscan tertiaries... who are playing.

Having run the name Old Catholic into the ground, vagantes who 1) themselves are ignorant about the real Orthodox, seeing the name and thinking it only means generally high-churchy but not under the Pope, which is what they want, and 2) know that most Westerners know just as little about the real Orthodox as they do, and so they can pass themselves off to the ignorant as Orthodox, have become fond lately of using this moniker.

That's what's going on here.
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« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2006, 11:56:02 AM »

My major problem is that dear Mother here has used administrative/political stuff as a justification for the existence of her Church - which is not really a valid set of reasons per se to enter into schism.  The only justification for schism is Heresy on the part of one's bishop, in which case the Church blesses the separation of the people from that bishop.  But if all the justification is that a poor old woman (who, in my mind, should be blessed for her struggles, and her story is unfortunate) who is disillusioned with the institutional church, or some other widow who can't be buried because of dues, then the condemnation of the Fathers who say that schism is just as bad as heresy falls upon those who themselves divide the Body of Christ, while throwing stones at the body claiming it divided itself.
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« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2006, 04:06:23 PM »

I originally posted this in the "Heresy" thread from which this thread spun off.  I intended it to apply to the subject of this thread, as well, so I copied it here for the purpose of discussing how this excerpt from St. Irenaeus applies to this thread.

From St. Irenaeus, Against the Heresies: Book III

CHAP. IV.--THE TRUTH IS TO BE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE BUT IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE SOLE DEPOSITORY OF APOSTOLICAL DOCTRINE. HERESIES ARE OF RECENT FORMATION, AND CANNOT TRACE THEIR ORIGIN UP TO THE APOSTLES.

    1. Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?

    2. To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition, believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God; who, because of His surpassing love towards His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin, He Himself uniting man through Himself to God, and having suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rising again, and having been received up in splendour, shall come in glory, the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent. Those who, in the absence of written documents, have believed this faith, are barbarians, so far as regards our language; but as regards doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed; and they do please God, ordering their conversation in all righteousness, chastity, and wisdom. If any one were to preach to these men the inventions of the heretics, speaking to them in their own language, they would at once stop their ears, and flee as far off as possible, not enduring even to listen to the blasphemous address. Thus, by means of that ancient tradition of the apostles, they do not suffer their mind to conceive anything of the [doctrines suggested by the] portentous language of these teachers, among whom neither Church nor doctrine has ever been established.


This excerpt extracted from this url: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/irenaeus/advhaer3.txt


(modifications added below to offer my own comments on the text)

From the above excerpt from St. Irenaeus's writings, I offer the following:
  • There is but one Church of Christ.
  • This Church has by necessity made itself manifest as an "institution."
  • Christ and His Holy Apostles have bequeathed upon the Church Truth in all its fullness.  As such, those who will can draw from the Church the water of life.
  • We must adhere to the teachings of the Church, the Tradition of Truth.
  • Those who teach doctrines contrary to the doctrines of the great Church of Christ must be avoided as heretics.  I know that this statement is very unpopular in today's ecumenical climate, for many of today's ecumenists have all but thrown out the word heresy for the sake of [false] unity.  However, I hope you can see that St. Irenaeus considered the preservation of true doctrine and the articulation of truth against heresy to be one of the most important works of the Church.  Those who are members of the Church cannot be in [Sacramental] union with those who would mark themselves as heretics by perverting the truth.
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« Reply #55 on: May 06, 2006, 04:42:46 PM »

  • Those who teach doctrines contrary to the doctrines of the great Church of Christ must be avoided as heretics.  I know that this statement is very unpopular in today's ecumenical climate, for many of today's ecumenists have all but thrown out the word heresy for the sake of [false] unity.  However, I hope you can see that St. Irenaeus considered the preservation of true doctrine and the articulation of truth against heresy to be one of the most important works of the Church.  Those who are members of the Church cannot be in [Sacramental] union with those who would mark themselves as heretics by perverting the truth.
I don't want to be misunderstood, though.  The teaching of true doctrine and the expulsion of heretics is not the only task of the Church.  The full task of the Church ultimately boils down to love.

Jesus said to him, "‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
(Matthew 22:37-40)

"This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
(John 15:12)

"Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’"
(Matthew 25:37-40)

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing."
(1 Corinthians 13:1-3)

Therefore
     "If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
      If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
      For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

(Romans 12:20)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, ....
(Galatians 5:22)

I suppose I couldn't even begin in the limited space of this post to exhaust the commandments of Christ and His Apostles to love God and to love our brothers and sisters.

If, in performing our God-given task of preaching and teaching true doctrine and expelling heretics, we forget our calling to love God and neighbor (including our enemies) and to minister to those inside and outside the Church with acts of charity, then we will indeed become what Mother Anastasia has accused us of becoming.


Scripture taken from the New King James Version. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
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« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2006, 07:51:13 PM »

Mother Anastasia,
1.  So you consider all Canonical Orthodox being full of rancor, bitterness and division??? In particular, all Orthodox hierarchs?
2.  Well, here in USA, I am aware about convert priests coming form different backgrounds. They looked, looked and have been accepted. In particular, a former Franciscan of the 3rd Order became an brilliant and extraordinary member of UOC-USA clergy, a format to all Orthodox.
3.  But all those people, actually clergy and laity, came to different Orthodox jurisdictions with a pure heart, with a strong belief in Orthodox Truth. They did not come up with any "third ways". As an Ecumenist, I found the creation of "third ways" especially dangerous, because this is the way from unity in truth, the "right" to break out from the Church and the attempt to create 3a heresy and to justify doing so.

1.  Not at all.  I don't know all Canonical Orthodox, we still hope to find those who are full of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.  We haven't given up.  We have had promising conversations that changed in tone when discussing other Christian faiths. (including RCC)  

2.  I looked up UOC-USA, and was very encouraged by what I read.  I especially was roused to hope when I saw Fr. Mitch Pacwa's name on an article they linked to.  I will return to this site and go deeper.

3.   But all those people, actually clergy and laity, came to different Orthodox jurisdictions with a pure heart, with a strong belief in Orthodox Truth.  This is very encouraging and it seems that the more consolidation and unification takes place with all the little
jurisdictions coming together, the sooner we will accomplish this goal, as long as it does not turn into an institution that is sharply polarized against other Christians or the RCC.

Our prayer and work revolves not around whitewashing issues,  but rather drawing all men to Christ and His Church, and the fullness of the graces that are available to the believer to aid in the work of sanctification and salvation.

We could never be  yoked ,  to  those who are immoral, or those who do not defend the right to life, or support other issues against faith and morals. But we do have intercommunion with Catholics and Orthodox, and would never deny the Sacraments to such.  Nor do we allow any gossiping or disparaging of other Christians, which regretably I feel I have gone over the line in a couple of examples I gave.  It is not our practice to draw lines and criticize the faith practices of other Christians.    Rather we believe that if we live our lives to the fullest as God's grace supplies, all men will be drawn to the truth.  

I would like to know how you deal with visitors who have a perspective similar to ours.  Would you allow them to receive communion, or would there jurisdictional irregularities, prevent them from the Lord's table.  If they mentioned that they had been attending an Orthodox Church, not in communion with you, how would you respond?  Would that too disqualify them from communion.

Would you ever allow a disparaging word about another Christian body,  or say similar things to   the members of your Church, privately or publicly?

What is the extent of your responsibility in bringing souls to the truth?  And what part do you leave to God?

If someone came to you from a Christian Church, who believed in dreams and visions and speaking in tongues,  would you try to correct them,  saying that these are deceptions?  

In the Forum on Medjugoria, there was a discrediting of Fatima as well.  Is this a common practice among the Canonical Orthodox?

Thank you for considering my questions,  these are issues that trouble me and I would appreciate your clarification.

By the way, we changed our description, to be more in accord with your definitions, but we still are embracing more and more Orthodox practices, while retaining the Western Rite liturgy, because for our people to do all the prostrations and stand during the entire liturgy, would not be conducive to their spiritual health, and entering into the worship of liturgy.
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« Reply #57 on: May 06, 2006, 08:04:25 PM »

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing."
(1 Corinthians 13:1-3)



Please forgive me, there have been times when I have not spoken in the Spirit of Love.
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« Reply #58 on: May 06, 2006, 08:44:00 PM »


 But we do have intercommunion with Catholics and Orthodox, and would never deny the Sacraments to such.


You do not have 'intercommunion' with the Orthodox. Any responsible Orthodox priest would not allow you to receive from the Chalice if he knew the background of the vagante group of which you are a member.

Your description is still inaccurate, and needs to re-done again. May I suggest your Faith be listed as 'Christian' and your Jurisdiction be 'Independent'?

These are perhaps the most neutral terms I can use for the group you are a part of.

Additionally, any Orthodox person who somehow unwittingly, either through being deceived or their own regrettable inattention, received any 'sacrament' through your group would need to report this to their priest.

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« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2006, 09:48:30 PM »

You do not have 'intercommunion' with the Orthodox. Any responsible Orthodox priest would not allow you to receive from the Chalice if he knew the background of the vagante group of which you are a member.

Thank you! They're not in communion with Rome either. They're like Protestant churches that have open Communion. This doesn't mean the churches of the Roman Catholics or Orthodox they offer Communion to are in communion with them!
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« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2006, 10:35:51 PM »

To have intercommunion with non-Orthodox is to misunderstand what communion is.  To be in communion and to receive communion is to be in unity with the Church of Christ, her members and her beliefs.  If I am a member of Vladika Gregory of Colorodo's group then I cannot receive communion in any other church, because I have seperated myself from the Body of Christ.  If I am hold heretical beliefs then I cannot receive communion.  To receive communion also puts yourself mystically into communion with the entire body of Christ mystically.  This cannot happen if you do not believe what they believe.  I think this is one of the reason that some find the idea of SS Seraphim and Francis might commune with each other.  They dissagree as to what they hold as belief.  To not be Orthodox, but to commune at said Church is a lie and damaging.  IT would be going to a doctor with no intention of getting well, or as the case is more often disregarding the doctor's instructions and perscribing your own dosage.  
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« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2006, 10:46:09 PM »

Which is what both the Orthodox and Rome essentially believe and why neither will intercommune with Our Lady, Light of the Woods Church which Mother Anastasia belongs to.
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« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2006, 02:06:47 AM »

Which is what both the Orthodox and Rome essentially believe and why neither will intercommune with Our Lady, Light of the Woods Church which Mother Anastasia belongs to.

To set the record straight, our Church title is, Church of the Fisherman, Catholic Orthodox Church,
the description I gave was to help you grasp where we were coming from.  If you would like to call it by some other name, that is between you and God.

Very simply Brother,  if Bishop Athanasius knew that you were a true Orthodox believer, (which would include an authentic love of God and Neighbor)  and you came to one of our liturgies, he would have no problem at all including you in our communioin. What you do under the direction of your Patriarch, is between you and God.

   
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« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2006, 02:14:53 AM »

Also, if Saint Athanasius knew you were a true Orthodox believe he would commune you.  That also involved in rejecting Arianism, heresies, and their false church hierarchy.  To be a true Orthodox believe then you must ascribe to the teachings of the Church and the Church.  That's the literal meaning of Orthodox.  Otherwise you are simply heterodox.
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« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2006, 02:26:25 AM »

Also, if Saint Athanasius knew you were a true Orthodox believe he would commune you.  That also involved in rejecting Arianism, heresies, and their false church hierarchy.  To be a true Orthodox believe then you must ascribe to the teachings of the Church and the Church.  That's the literal meaning of Orthodox.  Otherwise you are simply heterodox.

No one has asked me anything about ascribing to the teachings of the church on any subject other than jurisdiction and perhaps our policy of intercommunion....there is a great deal more to Christ's church than that, however since that seems to be the sole criteria here, there is no point in further discussion.

Form without content has no value whatsoever, not here and certainly not in Eternity.
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« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2006, 02:29:56 AM »

Mother Anastasia,
In responce to your reply #56 from 05/06/2006 at 19:51.
Thank you for your reply.
Actually, Chris, Young Fogey and Dantxny already provided excellent insights here. Great ideas, guys! The communion happens only within Orthodox church. So such vagante formations as Gregory of Colorado's group, Sobornopravna group, "Roman Orthodox" organization and others cannot be in communion with Canonical Orthodoxy. But that, of course, does not mean that they all cannot become Canonical Orthodox. As soon as they will come with pure hearts... There were examples in history. The communion takes place within all Jurisdictions of Canonical Orthodoxy. The postion about that is all the same, does not matter is that GOA, OCA, SOC, UOC-USA, AOA, etc.


Would you ever allow a disparaging word about another Christian body, ÂÂ or say similar things to ÂÂ  the members of your Church, privately or publicly?

Christians should be respectful to each other! And other Christians are our brothers and sisters in Christ! No doubt! I would love to see more cooperation between Christians. But in terms of a real unity, it should be based only on Truth. No doubt about it as well. Orthodox Church cannot not and will not compromise on dogmas.

If someone came to you from a Christian Church, who believed in dreams and visions and speaking in tongues, ÂÂ would you try to correct them, ÂÂ saying that these are deceptions? ÂÂ  

My personal opinion is that it looks like deceptions.

In the Forum on Medjugoria, there was a discrediting of Fatima as well.  Is this a common practice among the Canonical Orthodox?

Well, this one is a matter of theologumen. Some Canonical Orthodox accept Fatima. Others don't. Personally, I do accept it. And I respect points of view of others.

Again, please let me emphasize that there is no justification for a schizm. Cleveland, who is also an expert (I am not), provided an exception, which does not apply to your group. Mother Anastasia, you are more then welcome to join Canonical Orthodoxy. In order to find an Orthodox Church, closest to you please look here:
http://www.orthodoxyinamerica.org/sr2_0_0/locator.php

Also, would you please make changes in description of your Faith and Jurisdiction. Chris provided a really valuable and reasonable recommendation.

Edited for spelling only.
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« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2006, 02:35:36 AM »

To be a true Orthodox believe then you must ascribe to the teachings of the Church and the Church.  That's the literal meaning of Orthodox.  Otherwise you are simply heterodox.

Exactly!
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« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2006, 03:01:12 AM »

I wrote earlier in this thread of our need as Orthodox Christians to love God and neighbor while at the same preserving the Truth of our Gospel.  I just want to look at this in a different way.

Don't you find it rather interesting that the same Apostle John the Theologian who voiced in his Gospel and Epistles Christ's commandment that we love one another also spoke of false teachers with some of the harshest names possible, attaching even the name antichrist to these heretics?
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« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2006, 03:19:12 AM »


1.  My personal opinion is that it looks like deceptions.
Well, this one is a matter of theologumen. Some Canonical Orthodox accept Fatima. Others don't.

2.  Again, please let me emphasize that there is no justification for a schizm.
In order to find an Orthodox Church, closest to you please look here:

1.  Dear Brother, I take it that your personal opinions are based on your training within your church.  Given that, and the lack of coherence over Fatima, as well as other concerns that have surfaced on this forum,  I would not be interested in seeking out a church that is highly developed in the area of discerning canons, but is sorely lacking in experience in discerning the movements of the Holy Spirit within the personal life of a believer, as well as in the corporate life of the Body.

If the Holy Spirit predominates within the Believer, there is life.

But in these conversations, the canons have predominated.  I could never in good conscience exchange my relationship with Him to satisfiy man's need to define, control and compartmentalize this precious relationship,  according to their standards.

2.  By your definition, I am in schism with you, because I have separated myself from you by virtue of the dictates of my conscience before God and what I believe.  

However, I do not exclude you, and  I have not separated myself from you, I honor you as a member of His Church, because of your profession of the One True Apostolic Faith.  We do not agree on everything, such as dreams, visions, and legitimate appartitions, but we confess the same creed. Therefore, in all charity, we would accept you into communion.  You call Christians your brothers and sisters, in otherwords begotten of the Holy Sprit by God into one family, but you would not admit them to the table because of their other differences of belief.  This is what I would call schism.

But by your particular conviction, and interpretation of canonicity, you have broken with me.

I have not divided, I am trying to unite.
 

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« Reply #69 on: May 07, 2006, 03:30:58 AM »

Don't you find it rather interesting that the same Apostle John the Theologian who voiced in his Gospel and Epistles Christ's commandment that we love one another also spoke of false teachers with some of the harshest names possible, attaching even the name antichrist to these heretics?
His anger is directed at "the father of lies", not at people. There was one occassion in his life when St. John directed his anger at people and Our Lord rebuked him. This was when the Samaritan village would not receive Christ because He was headed for Jerusalem, "and when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?' But He turned and rebuked them, and said, 'You do not know what manner of spirit you are of! For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.' And they went to another village." (Luke 9:54-56) I doubt that after such a sharp rebuke from the Lord that St. John would make the same mistake again!
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« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2006, 06:52:39 AM »

Dear Mother Anastasia,

You know what I meant - obviously I used the name of your group's website.

And the mainline Protestant churches near here would all say what you said about intercommuning an Orthodox, but that doesn't make them Orthodox themselves; so it is with your church.

Thanks for modifying your profile information to be honest.

Quote
I would not be interested in seeking out a church that is highly developed in the area of discerning canons, but is sorely lacking in experience in discerning the movements of the Holy Spirit within the personal life of a believer, as well as in the corporate life of the Body.

Which could be part of a vagante creed: 'We don' need no steenkin' rules'. (Or iin the States as the Outback steakhouse commercial says, 'No rules. Just right'.) Of course both the Orthodox and Rome wouldn't agree with your false contrast characterising their churches like that and say it's not a good reason why you're not really Orthodox... and why you've excommunicated yourselves from Rome. (Again, 'we'd commune them' doesn't mean anything. The local Episcopal church would say that but it doesn't put them in communion with Rome. Rome will not commune you unless you repent.)

But in America, the happy hunting-ground of sectarianism, under the broad New Mexican desert skies, you're free to set up your own church or no church and do what you want. Just don't call it something it's not.

I can respect as somehow real anything that has a real congregation, a real ministry, and better still, generational members, even if I don't agree with the group/would never join. Few vagante churches have those, but those that do are like the Protestant church down the road. If it calls itself something it's not, like 'Western Rite Orthodox', it forfeits some of that respect.

Again, thanks for modifying your profile.
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« Reply #71 on: May 07, 2006, 08:29:26 AM »

If the Holy Spirit predominates within the Believer, there is life.

But in these conversations, the canons have predominated.  I could never in good conscience exchange my relationship with Him to satisfiy man's need to define, control and compartmentalize this precious relationship,  according to their standards.

Canons determined by the church in councils led by the same Holy Spirit you claim. If you refuse to abide by those canons then you are in effect in opposition to the working of the Holy Spirit.

John
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« Reply #72 on: May 07, 2006, 09:37:43 AM »

In the Forum on Medjugoria, there was a discrediting of Fatima as well.  Is this a common practice among the Canonical Orthodox?
While I don't question the sincerity of those who believe that Medjugore and Fatima are messages from God, no Orthodox Christian worthy of the name could ever possibly believe that God would ask us to "Make reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary."
A) We don't "make reparation" for sin- we repent of it (metanoia) and seek God's mercy, and
B) We certainly wouldn't "make reparation" to the "Immaculate Heart of Mary" for sin.
The Orthodox who dabble in these things would have a difficult time reconciling it with Orthodoxy.

Franciscan Tertiaries, "The Immaculate Heart", satisfaction for sin, Fatima, Medjugore.......your "pre-schism" church certainly seems to be filled with a lot of post-schism stuff.....including some post-Vatican-II stuff.
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« Reply #73 on: May 07, 2006, 02:53:35 PM »

Dear Mother Anastasia,

I can respect as somehow real anything that has a real congregation, a real ministry, and better still, generational members, even if I don't agree with the group/would never join. Few vagante churches have those, but those that do are like the Protestant church down the road. If it calls itself something it's not, like 'Western Rite Orthodox', it forfeits some of that respect.

Just to give you a little background, we were never formally excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Bishop when Father Bishop was ordained in the  Utrech succession, probaby because our Bishop was in communication with Rome seeking unity and one of the last obstacles was the married priesthood.  We have also attended the local Mass for funerals and weddings and were not denied communion even though everyone knows who we are.  

We are not a church or congregation.  We are monastic, and support a house of prayer and private chapel, where people come at all hours of the day and night for Adoration and prayer,as well as counsel and confession by appointment. We provide food for forty poor families, especially single mothers,  every Thursday.

We are not called to be a Church, and we have absolutely no interest in becoming a Church.  The name Church of the Fisherman Holy Orthodox Catholic Church, is our new Bishop's registered name in the state of California.  Our first Old Roman Bishop, being elderly asked us to in-cardinate under a Bishop he co-consecrated, who was ordained as a priest under an Orthodox Bishop, but responded to an invitation to work with him when the other Bishop passed away.  I'm not sure which Orthodox group he came from, but I am trying to find that out. (I seem to remember him being OCA)  Not that any of that would be acceptable to you any way, I am just trying to help you understand our position.

We have remained on peaceful terms with the  local parish priests as they come and go according to modern day assignment practices. While the parish priest  does not agree with our decision but in all charity, does respect what we are doing in the community.  He has even sent us a donation,as well as the St. Vincent de Paul Association,  to help with our expenses.  

We seek peace with all our non Christian and  Christian Brothers and Sisters (those who are baptised,  profess the creed and live a moral life), and while they are very antagonistic over our traditional beliefs, confession,  the true presence, purgatory, apostolic succession, our vow of poverty (we live solely on providence)  etc.etc.  We do not condemn them as heretics nor force ourselves upon them.  As far as apparition sites, dreams and visions, speaking in tongues, all is approved of by our former tradition,  however we ourselves are extremely cautious in all these areas.

Rather than try to prove our beliefs to them, which we have found does not produce good fruit,  we try to keep our eyes on Jesus, love and serve Him, and pray that we will be a good example to them based on our fruits, without in any way compromising our orthodox beliefs.

We have been very drawn to Orthodoxy through our Celtic roots,  and are interested in revitalizing early Church traditions.  The Celts were independent people who fought being stripped of their cultural identities (I am not speaking here of their pagan religions, but of their sensitivity to all of creation which is very Franciscan), and forced to adapt to Roman customs in their liturgy and monastic lives.  We are very similar to the Celts in some ways.

The reason we call ourselves Western Rite Orthodox, is because our Bishop came from Orthodoxy and we are embracing more and more of the customs. We use the Latin Liturgy in English for our services, which is considered the standard Western Rite Liturgy.  

Also, our first Bishop (now ArchBishop, the consecrate of Bishop +Athens,   has six lines of succession, 5 of them Orthodox in his lineage and was given a personal letter of full communion by the Metropolitan of Athens.

I understand that nothing I have said here is of any significance to you, but I did want to clarify a few of your assumptions.


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« Reply #74 on: May 07, 2006, 03:11:11 PM »

Also, if Saint Athanasius knew you were a true Orthodox believe he would commune you.  That also involved in rejecting Arianism, heresies, and their false church hierarchy.  To be a true Orthodox believe then you must ascribe to the teachings of the Church and the Church.  That's the literal meaning of Orthodox.  Otherwise you are simply heterodox.

I have no problem being part of a true church hierarchy, as long as they are substantially in conformity with the New Testament,  in their teachings and beliefs, living a truly Christian life, and  in matters of  administration,  behaving themselves as true followers of Jesus, without compromising in any way orthodox faith and morals, seeking peace without rancor.  We just simply have not found such a Church as yet.  But we are still hoping.

I understand your heterodox/orthodox perspective.  

Our main concern is that we are orthodox before God, whom we must some day give an accounting to.  We can't please everyone, but with His grace, we try to please Him.
It is truly a sad thing, this division.
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« Reply #75 on: May 07, 2006, 03:54:17 PM »

Franciscan Tertiaries, "The Immaculate Heart", satisfaction for sin, Fatima, Medjugore.......your "pre-schism" church certainly seems to be filled with a lot of post-schism stuff.....including some post-Vatican-II stuff.

The Holy Spirit is alive and well, able to navigate and teach in some branches of the canonical Church.  He never stopped creating, never stopped speaking to hearts, never stopped performing miracles, especially those that confirm doctrine.

For instance, some canonical Orthodox  are not in agreement about the stain of original sin being cleansed through Baptism.  I believe that the Holy Spirit in His profound condescension and humility, provided a grace to help verify this doctrine.   When Theotokos appeared to Bernadette and called herself the "Immaculate Conception", those who were closed to Him would not accept it,  so they had to discredit Lourdes, even though to this day the body of Bernadette remains under glass for all to see, incorrupt.  And the miracles from Lourdes continue.

Given the evidence,  it is apparent that this doctrine and manifestation have been testified to by God in His Divine and Miraculous Intervention and Providence.  If what I say here is factual, then all that oppose this doctrine and its repercussions, have not withstood the RCC, they have withstood God Himself, in His  merciful provision to bring the two Churches together in orthodox understanding.

In conclusion, we do not segregate the miracles of God into Orthodox=valid,  RCC=invalid.
We discern based on New Testament principles what is of God and what is of man.  Division, especially unwarranted, is of man.  Satan divides and conquers,  we must not allow ourselves to be instruments that divide, but instruments that reunite.

Truth carries its own anointing, truth endures, the fruits of Truth are sweet and life giving, and enduring through time and every opposition, they are not bitter, harsh and cold, bringing condemnation, alienation and separation.


We believe that wherever there is valid teaching and movement of the Spirit of God, in conformity with the New Testament, these things should be retained. In the case of Lourdes, Fatima and other visitations of God's grace, there was at first,  opposition and discrediting by heirarchies.

Our position is that, if for no valid reason, church hierarchy tries to interfere with or discredit a valid supernatural manifestation, it is preferrable for the believer to follow his or her conscience on the matter even when it brings open disobedience.

                  "As a matter of conscience, I respectfully disobey."

And in other Church matters, if East and West had adhered to this definition of obedience, perhaps the great schism might never have happened, the way it did.
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« Reply #76 on: May 07, 2006, 04:09:42 PM »

To have intercommunion with non-Orthodox is to misunderstand what communion is.  To be in communion and to receive communion is to be in unity with the Church of Christ, her members and her beliefs.  If I am a member of Vladika Gregory of Colorodo's group then I cannot receive communion in any other church, because I have separated myself from the Body of Christ.  


I do not see the Holy Eucharist as a "divine notary seal"  on any man's particular adherence or departure from the canons in regard to affiliation with accepted Churches, that gives him permission to exclude those who are truly of the faith, fully believing in the true presence,  yet without such canonical approvals.  

I see Him as the True Presence of Jesus physically present to us, as long as the consecration that takes place is from a male priest, of full apostolic succession, done in the proper form.

It is the sick who need the physician not the healthy.
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« Reply #77 on: May 07, 2006, 04:25:29 PM »

Canons determined by the church in councils led by the same Holy Spirit you claim. If you refuse to abide by those canons then you are in effect in opposition to the working of the Holy Spirit.

But your tradition does not accept certain councils that were also led by the Holy Spirit.  Doesn't that put your group in opposition to what others would call the legitimate working of the Holy Spirit in the formation of canons?

Your Hierarchs have discerned that the Holy Spirit was not at work in Vatican II.  I believe that He was, but that men took liscense and advantage of certain changes and perverted certain intentions of God to make the Faith more accessable to the common man.  
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« Reply #78 on: May 07, 2006, 06:41:31 PM »

Quote
Just to give you a little background...

Thanks.

Quote
...we were never formally excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Bishop when Father Bishop was ordained in the Utrecht succession...

Y'all excommunicated yourselves from Rome by being ordained by these people, and you're not in the Utrecht communion. They have one church in North America, in Canada, and that's it. You're not Old Catholics.

Quote
...probably because our Bishop was in communication with Rome seeking unity and one of the last obstacles was the married priesthood.


Or probably because your Roman Catholic bishop didn't know you did it or couldn't be bothered to know.

Quote
We have also attended the local Mass for funerals and weddings and were not denied communion even though everyone knows who we are.

That's because they're disobedient. It doesn't mean you're in communion with Rome.

Quote
We have remained on peaceful terms with the  local parish priests as they come and go according to modern day assignment practices. While the parish priest  does not agree with our decision but in all charity, does respect what we are doing in the community.  He has even sent us a donation,as well as the St. Vincent de Paul Association, to help with our expenses.

As long as you don't try to have services in their churches or receive Communion at them, or Absolution without giving up your new religious enterprise, why wouldn't they be? If you're doing charitable work, that's great. That doesn't mean you're in communion with those priests.

Quote
Our first Old Roman Bishop, being elderly asked us to in-cardinate under a Bishop he co-consecrated, who was ordained as a priest under an Orthodox Bishop, but responded to an invitation to work with him when the other Bishop passed away.  I'm not sure which Orthodox group he came from, but I am trying to find that out. (I seem to remember him being OCA)  Not that any of that would be acceptable to you any way, I am just trying to help you understand our position.

You're right, it's not.

And according to the Orthodox none of this means anything. Their view is that the former Orthodox priest functionally stopped being a priest when he was no longer under an Orthodox bishop, and he's not a bishop.

Quote
We have been very drawn to Orthodoxy through our Celtic roots,  and are interested in revitalizing early Church traditions.  The Celts were independent people who fought being stripped of their cultural identities (I am not speaking here of their pagan religions, but of their sensitivity to all of creation which is very Franciscan), and forced to adapt to Roman customs in their liturgy and monastic lives.  We are very similar to the Celts in some ways.

A vagante cliché. Which Celts? The Walloons? The Cornish? The Scots? The Irish? Or the Bretons? Usually the cliché-users mean Irish. Those people must be tired of New Agers projecting onto them. Thanks, spin again.

Quote
The reason we call ourselves Western Rite Orthodox, is because our Bishop came from Orthodoxy and we are embracing more and more of the customs.


That doesn't make you Orthodox. That makes him a former Orthodox.

Reminds me of the American Indian wannabes who loved Dances with Wolves, find out they're 1/32 Cherokee or something and suddenly think they're 'sensitive', 'nature-loving' bona-fide Indians (since they 'feel so Indian'), which just pisses off real Indians.

Quote
We use the Latin Liturgy in English for our services, which is considered the standard Western Rite Liturgy.

OK, I'm curious. Is it the Novus Ordo Mass you came from or a form of the old Tridentine Mass that I like?

Real Western Rite Orthodox sometimes use the latter and more often use an Orthodox edition of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer.

Quote
Also, our first Bishop (now ArchBishop, the consecrate of Bishop +Athens, has six lines of succession, 5 of them Orthodox in his lineage and was given a personal letter of full communion by the Metropolitan of Athens.

One. More. Time. To the Orthodox, LINES OF SUCCESSION outside their church MEAN NOTHING.

And the Orthodox see of Athens is headed by an archbishop, who heads the whole church in Greece, not a metropolitan.

I don't think Archbishop Christodoulos would declare himself in full communion with a wayward priest who's joined some Western vagantes playing games.

Quote
I understand that nothing I have said here is of any significance to you...

Correct. I'm just a big blue meanie that way.

Ultimately the criterion of truth and grace, the final authority, in Mother Anastasia's religion is... Mother Anastasia.

Thanks for playing.
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« Reply #79 on: May 07, 2006, 07:09:12 PM »

Thanks for playing.

I just don't see Jesus in you anywhere, Brother.



You may contact "Thomas" for our lineage.
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« Reply #80 on: May 07, 2006, 07:17:36 PM »

I just don't see Jesus in you anywhere, Brother.

Far more conceited than anything I've written about you.
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« Reply #81 on: May 07, 2006, 07:20:42 PM »

Just as a side note...

To use the "apparition" to Bernadette claiming to be "the immaculate conception" as a proof for the legitimacy of the novel doctrine of the immaculate conception is bad Roman Catholic theology!  Any good Catholic theologian will tell you that appartitions are considered private revelations and do not affect the deposit of the faith.  So if you are going to try to justify something like the Immaculate Conception, do so using the church fathers and scripture - but the more you try to justify the more likely you are to find that Aquinas was right on the immaculate conception.

And amazingly enough Serge and I agree on something.  That calls for a drink of something!  
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« Reply #82 on: May 07, 2006, 07:36:01 PM »

His anger is directed at "the father of lies", not at people. There was one occassion in his life when St. John directed his anger at people and Our Lord rebuked him. This was when the Samaritan village would not receive Christ because He was headed for Jerusalem, "and when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?' But He turned and rebuked them, and said, 'You do not know what manner of spirit you are of! For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.' And they went to another village." (Luke 9:54-56) I doubt that after such a sharp rebuke from the Lord that St. John would make the same mistake again!
You are free to disagree with me, but AISI St. John really was referring to the false teachers as antichrists.

Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
(1 John 2:18-22)

You are correct, though, in asserting that he did not call down death and condemnation upon these false teachers as he tried to do in the Gospels.  St. John in his First Epistle merely called out the false teachers for what they were.
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« Reply #83 on: May 07, 2006, 07:50:48 PM »

The Holy Spirit is alive and well, able to navigate and teach in some branches of the canonical Church.  He never stopped creating, never stopped speaking to hearts, never stopped performing miracles, especially those that confirm doctrine.
But how are we to discern the work of the Holy Spirit except in the Church, the "pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15)

"Outside of the Church there is no salvation." (St. Cyprian of Carthage)

We will not be presumptuous enough to believe that the Holy Spirit cannot or will not work outside of the canonical institution of the Church to bring men and women to salvation.  All we will say is what we've always said.  The Holy Spirit has chosen to work in the world after Christ's Ascension through the Church (see the Second Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles).  Any work of the Holy Spirit is truly the work of the Church, and any work that contradicts the work of the Church cannot be of the Holy Spirit.


(For those who may ask: Yes, I do identify the Church solely with the canonical Orthodox churches.)
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« Reply #84 on: May 07, 2006, 08:57:55 PM »

Any work of the Holy Spirit is truly the work of the Church, and any work that contradicts the work of the Church cannot be of the Holy Spirit.[/b

But not every work of the Church is of the Holy Spirit, as history has revealed,
therefore, your second statement  "any work that contradicts the work of the Church cannot be of the Holy Spirit, cannot be true.
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« Reply #85 on: May 07, 2006, 09:10:11 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8972.msg119754#msg119754 date=1147044042]
 To use the "apparition" to Bernadette claiming to be "the immaculate conception" as a proof for the legitimacy of the [/quote]

I never used the word proof.  What I did say was that Lourdes was a testifying miracle to a doctrine that was already well established in the RCC tradition.
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« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2006, 09:13:57 PM »

But how are we to discern the work of the Holy Spirit except in the Church, the "pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15)


And how are we to identify those who are truly adhering to the Church.

By their canonicity and paperwork, or by their fruits?
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« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2006, 09:15:24 PM »

We will not be presumptuous enough to believe that the Holy Spirit cannot or will not work outside of the canonical institution of the Church to bring men and women to salvation.

This is most encouraging, something I can agree with.
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« Reply #88 on: May 07, 2006, 09:22:03 PM »

1.  Dear Brother, I take it that your personal opinions are based on your training within your church.  Given that, and the lack of coherence over Fatima, as well as other concerns that have surfaced on this forum,  I would not be interested in seeking out a church that is highly developed in the area of discerning canons, but is sorely lacking in experience in discerning the movements of the Holy Spirit within the personal life of a believer, as well as in the corporate life of the Body.

If the Holy Spirit predominates within the Believer, there is life.

But in these conversations, the canons have predominated.  I could never in good conscience exchange my relationship with Him to satisfiy man's need to define, control and compartmentalize this precious relationship,  according to their standards.


Please, please, please don't consider this forum "representative" of Orthodoxy. You don't really think that an online, e-board like this accurately reflects how even the people on the board act in real life, do you? Much less what the theologians, clergy or hierarchs of the Church teach from the pulpit and in writing? (I'm not being sarcastic...see, the difficulty of the written word! Where's Derrida when you need him!?  Wink ) I, for one, am not telling you this because I am trying to convince you to enter canonical Orthodoxy. You seem set in your ways. I am just rather surprised by how some people seem to take this board as authoritative...it's just a bunch of people, mainly arm-chair theologians, typing away.

As far as "discerning the movements of the Holy Spirit" go: As all of the charismatic elders throughout the centuries have stressed, "discernment" involves plenty of spiritual sensitivity to that other great Spirit of Deception. The common tradition of the pre-Schism Church (as you are wont to call it) is to be very wary of personal visions and prophetic activities. While they happen frequently (and continue to happen within the canonical Church), they should always be approached with sober hesitancy and great caution.

One other thing about the spiritual discernment of the Church: As I'm sure you know from St. John Climacus, the BEGINNING of the spiritual life is obedience. The cutting off of the will, the submission to spiritual Father, and, ultimately, submission to the Church's right-teaching hierarchy is an essential act of humility, an act that brings life-giving fruits of the Spirit.

We may chase after amazing gifts and great ascetic feats, but unless we pass through the slow, patient road of submissive meekness, we're bound to mistake trinkets for treasure at some point in our self-guided spiritual life. This ascetic spirit of obedience, meekness and humility is the source that animates the Church's "canonicity" -- a canonicity that many great Fathers and spiritual elders upheld stringently, because they knew its spiritual value through firsthand experience.
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« Reply #89 on: May 07, 2006, 09:24:20 PM »

"Outside of the Church there is no salvation." (St. Cyprian of Carthage)


And because salvation is taking place outside the walls you have erected,

in this canonically correct Orthodox box, it is apparent that your idea of what

constitutes The Church and God's idea of what constitutes His Church, are not in

agreement.  Personally, I would spend more time studying to be approved by Him

than by man.  
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