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Author Topic: Re: Heresy?-Jurisdiction  (Read 8842 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mother Anastasia
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« on: May 02, 2006, 02:18:33 PM »

2) Dormition vs. Assumption: The standard Orthodox complaint is that the Catholic doctrine of the Assumption, as infallibly defined by Pope Pius XII, does not make it clear that Mary actually died before being assumed into heaven. This is quite troubling to Orthodox sensibilities, a fact that is only exacerbated by the fact that, at times, Catholic writings and popular piety include the belief that Mary did NOT die and, because she was Immaculately Conceived etc. etc., was assumed directly into heaven.

This is truly a shame, that the Catholic doctrine is not explicitly in union with Orthodoxy.  It leaves room for dissension and division which scandalizes little souls and divides the Holy Body of Christ that should be whole, healthy and seamless.  

How can such a sick body minister to a world full of sin?

Still it does not seem impossible, with humility, love and forgiveness, God can work wonders in the hearts of men, if they are willing.

Here is a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Faith,  (Just below the doctrine of her assumption that is not explicit) "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God.."

For the peace and good of everyone, why are we focusing on disagreements that build walls and block grace?  Why do we insist on being correct and have everyone else bow to our correctness, or be labeled heretics?

Brothers, in Heaven, there will be no letter of the law!  Such wrinkles will get a good ironing out in the waiting rooms.

I am not implying that we should ignore abuses, rather I am saying that in all charity, we must make little of them so that we can work together.  So that walls that prevent salvation from flowing freely to the little ones and those afflicted with the cancers of this world can be healed.  How can we, who are eaten away inside with rancor and pride be of use to the Holy Spirit?

Irregardless of denominational-doctrinal bent,  a poor ignorant protestant who has loved God with all their heart and strength, and mind, and their neighbor as themselves,  will enter Heaven before the doctrinally correct that have totally ignored the heart of the law.

And for the "correct" who have sown division, and withstood the Holy Spirit in His work of bringing all men to  salvation,  there is good reason to fear that such as these will find themselves outside the gates where there is weeping, wailing and knashing of teeth.  Those who have lived by the law, will be judged by the law.  Those who have shown mercy and lived in charity, will be shown mercy and charity.  

Is there even one among us that is not in need of mercy and charity???
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2006, 02:35:17 PM »

    Oh good a debate about the trinity  Huh
Here is a classic example,  we are arguing over which part of the egg has precedence  over the other part of the egg.  Which part comes first, or directs the parts of the others?  Have you ever watched an egg develop?  All parts are there developing together.  Why are we spending so much time on this?  And this little dialogue is not even the tip of the iceberg, but merely a droplet in an ocean of theological debate going on right this minute all over the world!!!

In this minute,  who have we fed, that was hungry,  who have we clothed that was naked, who have we visited that was sick?  Who have we kept company and counseled who was truly struggling with painful issues of faith, not knowing that God loves them, cares for them, because of their life circumstance, how are we showing them Jesus? What monies, loaned to  us by God have we used to do these things,  what resources and time have we invested in the theological melting pot to feed our orthodox egos?

Do you think, do you really think,  even for one moment,  that if Christ returns in this hour our lamps will be trimmed and filled?



[/list]
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2006, 03:23:33 PM »

This is truly a shame, that the Catholic doctrine is not explicitly in union with Orthodoxy.  It leaves room for dissension and division which scandalizes little souls and divides the Holy Body of Christ that should be whole, healthy and seamless.  

How can such a sick body minister to a world full of sin?

Still it does not seem impossible, with humility, love and forgiveness, God can work wonders in the hearts of men, if they are willing.

Here is a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Faith,  (Just below the doctrine of her assumption that is not explicit) "In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God.."

For the peace and good of everyone, why are we focusing on disagreements that build walls and block grace?  Why do we insist on being correct and have everyone else bow to our correctness, or be labeled heretics?

Brothers, in Heaven, there will be no letter of the law!  Such wrinkles will get a good ironing out in the waiting rooms.

I am not implying that we should ignore abuses, rather I am saying that in all charity, we must make little of them so that we can work together.  So that walls that prevent salvation from flowing freely to the little ones and those afflicted with the cancers of this world can be healed.  How can we, who are eaten away inside with rancor and pride be of use to the Holy Spirit?

Irregardless of denominational-doctrinal bent,  a poor ignorant protestant who has loved God with all their heart and strength, and mind, and their neighbor as themselves,  will enter Heaven before the doctrinally correct that have totally ignored the heart of the law.

And for the "correct" who have sown division, and withstood the Holy Spirit in His work of bringing all men to  salvation,  there is good reason to fear that such as these will find themselves outside the gates where there is weeping, wailing and knashing of teeth.  Those who have lived by the law, will be judged by the law.  Those who have shown mercy and lived in charity, will be shown mercy and charity.  

Is there even one among us that is not in need of mercy and charity???

I appreciate your sentiment, but I disagree with it.  The theologies that divide RC's from the Church are indeed important issues that shape how RC's and the Church view the very essence of God and of salvation.  Preaching the right doctrine is vital to bringing people to salvation, otherwise the mercy and charity that you preach would be nothing more than social work that any charitable organization can perform.  I don't mean that we should not seek to feed the poor, or clothe the naked, or comfort the grieving, because Christ does indeed command us to do all these things.  I'm just saying that we should not abandon correct doctrine and correct worship for the sake of fulfilling our charitable responsibilities, as many so-called Christians actually encourage.

If the Orthodox and Catholic communions were merely two estranged branches of the One, Holy, Catholic Church as you express, then yes, our division over doctrinal issues would be petty and scandalous.  However, the Orthodox together with the Holy Fathers have always asserted that the Roman church deviated from doctrines that are of the core essence of the Apostolic Faith, and that this deviation marks the RC church as truly a heretic body.  Seeing the RC church in this way, the Orthodox CANNOT recognize the RC church as being part of the One Church of Christ, because the Church cannot be divided.  We can only recognize that the RC church is outside the Church of Christ because of her heresies.

I guess you can go ahead and call this argument over issues of manmade theologies, but we Orthodox would say that the REAL issue is Rome's departure from the Faith given us by Christ and His Holy Apostles.  We Orthodox CANNOT and WILL NOT follow down Rome's heretical path.


(tag on thought added after initial post)
Your least-common-denominator approach to union that dismisses our core theological differences is actually quite disrespectful to the staunch adherents of both the RC and EO traditions who each consider their differing theologies to be of central importance to how Christians are to understand salvation.  Are we to tell our most devoutly committed RC counterparts that their theological concerns are unimportant?  RC's have just as much reason to consider this attitude rude as do the Orthodox.
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2006, 04:12:42 PM »

We Orthodox CANNOT and WILL NOT follow down Rome's heretical path.  Quote from PetertheAluet #63

You're not getting it yet brother.

What Christ established on this earth was PURE & SIMPLE;  childlike you could easily say.  Without artifice, pomp and splendor, money, politics, theological prowess,  the very dynamics the Romans and Greeks used to exalt themselves above other nations.

Man has done with God's gift of the Faith, as he has done with the pristine purity of the Earth.  

Christ is coming to judge the institutions that have brutalized the innocent and shut up the gates of Heaven, to prevent them from entering in.

Personally,  I wouldn't want to be in any camp He is about to judge.
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2006, 04:26:07 PM »

We Orthodox CANNOT and WILL NOT follow down Rome's heretical path.  Quote from PetertheAluet #63

You're not getting it yet brother.

What Christ established on this earth was PURE & SIMPLE;  childlike you could easily say.  Without artifice, pomp and splendor, money, politics, theological prowess,  the very dynamics the Romans and Greeks used to exalt themselves above other nations.

Man has done with God's gift of the Faith, as he has done with the pristine purity of the Earth.  

Christ is coming to judge the institutions that have brutalized the innocent and shut up the gates of Heaven, to prevent them from entering in.

Personally,  I wouldn't want to be in any camp He is about to judge.

All I can say is that your opinion is part of a rather recent phenomenon that has no support in either traditional Catholicism or traditional Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2006, 04:27:26 PM »

We Orthodox CANNOT and WILL NOT follow down Rome's heretical path.  Quote from PetertheAluet #63

You're not getting it yet brother.

What Christ established on this earth was PURE & SIMPLE;  childlike you could easily say.  Without artifice, pomp and splendor, money, politics, theological prowess,  the very dynamics the Romans and Greeks used to exalt themselves above other nations.

Man has done with God's gift of the Faith, as he has done with the pristine purity of the Earth. ÂÂ

Christ is coming to judge the institutions that have brutalized the innocent and shut up the gates of Heaven, to prevent them from entering in.

Personally,  I wouldn't want to be in any camp He is about to judge.

That's an interesting, if unpopular, position to take.
 Grin
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2006, 04:30:42 PM »

I appreciate your sentiment, but I disagree with it.  The theologies that divide RC's from the Church are indeed important issues that shape how RC's and the Church view the very essence of God and of salvation.  Preaching the right doctrine is vital to bringing people to salvation, otherwise the mercy and charity that you preach would be nothing more than social work that any charitable organization can perform.  I don't mean that we should not seek to feed the poor, or clothe the naked, or comfort the grieving, because Christ does indeed command us to do all these things.  I'm just saying that we should not abandon correct doctrine and correct worship for the sake of fulfilling our charitable responsibilities, as many so-called Christians actually encourage.

If the Orthodox and Catholic communions were merely two estranged branches of the One, Holy, Catholic Church as you express, then yes, our division over doctrinal issues would be petty and scandalous.  However, the Orthodox together with the Holy Fathers have always asserted that the Roman church deviated from doctrines that are of the core essence of the Apostolic Faith, and that this deviation marks the RC church as truly a heretic body.  Seeing the RC church in this way, the Orthodox CANNOT recognize the RC church as being part of the One Church of Christ, because the Church cannot be divided.  We can only recognize that the RC church is outside the Church of Christ because of her heresies.

I guess you can go ahead and call this argument over issues of manmade theologies, but we Orthodox would say that the REAL issue is Rome's departure from the Faith given us by Christ and His Holy Apostles.  We Orthodox CANNOT and WILL NOT follow down Rome's heretical path.


(tag on thought added after initial post)
Your least-common-denominator approach to union that dismisses our core theological differences is actually quite disrespectful to the staunch adherents of both the RC and EO traditions who each consider their differing theologies to be of central importance to how Christians are to understand salvation.  Are we to tell our most devoutly committed RC counterparts that their theological concerns are unimportant?  RC's have just as much reason to consider this attitude rude as do the Orthodox.

It seems that the division itself is more important to you then what the division might be about.
I find that very sad but unsurprising.
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2006, 04:43:01 PM »

Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die,
 for God has not found your works complete.
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2006, 04:47:58 PM »

Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die,
 for God has not found your works complete.

You have been weigh in the Balence and found wonting?
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2006, 05:38:24 PM »

It seems that the division itself is more important to you then what the division might be about.
I find that very sad but unsurprising.


No, this is not what I had hoped to communicate.  I am committed to Truth, the fullness of which I find in Orthodoxy alone.  Frankly, our division saddens me, and I long for the day when the RC church and the Orthodox Church will be united again.  I am committed to doing what I can now by the grace of God to bring this about.  However, I do not believe that union can ever come about by us just ignoring our major theological differences and pursuing a union based on lowest-common-denominator relativism and/or the embrace of heresy.  This is really not respectful to either your tradition or mine.
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2006, 09:39:14 PM »

I would be crassly irresponsible to engage you and other RC's in dialog with the goal of lowest-common-denominator ecumenism that seeks to whitewash our differences and make them appear as if they don't exist.
Quote from Peter the Aluet

The issue is not whitewash.  The issue is scandalous division and immobilization of the Holy Spirit.  

It has been most painful for me to learn  how to work side by side with a devout protestant even though their denial of the role of Theotokos is a throbbing pain in my heart.  Someday they will know the truth.  It is after all a grace from God to see truth.  Man cannot discern truth apart from God.

When working with divisive elements who have been given and have received and are working with, the part of the truth entrusted to them,  I am a Mother to them,  not a victim of their deceptions and ignorance, rather a Mother.

They cannot see beyond the borders of their  sandbox.  The graces I must ask to be released on my behalf are patience, forbearance, wisdom and charity,  as we are both trying to exercise.  

But  if it should happen that you or I do have more of the truth because it has been given from above, then also with this comes the solemn responsibility to pray for their enlightenment, to do everything in our power not to turn them away.

Remember, it was not the prostitute that received the chastisement, but the Pharisee.  It was not the ignorant publican that went away unjustified, but the self righteous religious leader.   He was so bent on being correct that he completely missed the opportunity for repentance and grace.

When we show love and mercy, and the fruits of the Holy Spirit, we give grace time to work in those who are obstinate or blind, we endear ourselves to Almighty God, because we are laboring in union with His Heart, we prove to Him that we can be trusted with His graces.

 Maintaining this position of charity is a work of grace we cannot do on our own, but in time the truth will be revealed and it will be by our loving example that they will be drawn to the truth.   And we will not be a stumbling block by self righteous, hard hearted attitudes which will only drive them away.  I speak from experience.  Never should I create an environment of enmity and division that causes the little ones we are sent to serve, to be scandalized.  

What I am saying is that institutional churches even His churches have made a fine art out of straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

And He is coming to remove the corrupted part of both Catholic and Orthodox institutions, that what is left will be, One heart, One body, One mind with Him.

He who is the Eternal One and perfect in all His ways, will bring to perfection all who are willing.  

Are we willing?
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2006, 09:56:36 PM »

Here is a classic example,  we are arguing over which part of the egg has precedence  over the other part of the egg.  Which part comes first, or directs the parts of the others?  Have you ever watched an egg develop?  All parts are there developing together.  Why are we spending so much time on this?  And this little dialogue is not even the tip of the iceberg, but merely a droplet in an ocean of theological debate going on right this minute all over the world!!!
Excepting that you have said that one part of the egg is dependant upon the other two parts
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2006, 10:08:17 PM »

Excepting that you have said that one part of the egg is dependant upon the other two partsquoting montalban



Was that a tasty gnat Brother?
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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2006, 10:40:26 PM »

The issue is not whitewash.
Actually, to most Orthodox and traditionalist Catholics, much of what passes for ecumenical dialogue today is indeed an attempt to whitewash our differences.  

Quote
The issue is scandalous division and immobilization of the Holy Spirit.
Now, what makes you qualified to know the working of the Holy Spirit where the Orthodox Church somehow does not?

Quote
It has been most painful for me to learn  how to work side by side with a devout protestant even though their denial of the role of Theotokos is a throbbing pain in my heart.  Someday they will know the truth.  It is after all a grace from God to see truth.  Man cannot discern truth apart from God.
AMEN!

Quote
When working with divisive elements who have been given and have received and are working with, the part of the truth entrusted to them,  I am a Mother to them,  not a victim of their deceptions and ignorance, rather a Mother.

They cannot see beyond the borders of their  sandbox.  The graces I must ask to be released on my behalf are patience, forbearance, wisdom and charity,  as we are both trying to exercise.  

But  if it should happen that you or I do have more of the truth because it has been given from above, then also with this comes the solemn responsibility to pray for their enlightenment, to do everything in our power not to turn them away.

Remember, it was not the prostitute that received the chastisement, but the Pharisee.  It was not the ignorant publican that went away unjustified, but the self righteous religious leader.   He was so bent on being correct that he completely missed the opportunity for repentance and grace.

When we show love and mercy, and the fruits of the Holy Spirit, we give grace time to work in those who are obstinate or blind, we endear ourselves to Almighty God, because we are laboring in union with His Heart, we prove to Him that we can be trusted with His graces.

 Maintaining this position of charity is a work of grace we cannot do on our own, but in time the truth will be revealed and it will be by our loving example that they will be drawn to the truth.   And we will not be a stumbling block by self righteous, hard hearted attitudes which will only drive them away.  I speak from experience.  Never should I create an environment of enmity and division that causes the little ones we are sent to serve, to be scandalized.  

What I am saying is that institutional churches even His churches have made a fine art out of straining at gnats and swallowing camels.
Yes, I agree that this is true.  Pharisaism is a very common temptation, and, sadly, I have seen much of it in the Protestantism I left and the Orthodoxy I joined.  I've even succumbed to this temptation at times.

Quote
And He is coming to remove the corrupted part of both Catholic and Orthodox institutions, that what is left will be, One heart, One body, One mind with Him.

He who is the Eternal One and perfect in all His ways, will bring to perfection all who are willing.  

Are we willing?
Many outside of the Orthodox Church will be saved, and many within the Orthodox Church will be condemned.

The one contention with which I disagree, though, is your apparent contention that all polemic debate of theologically divisive issues is automatically uncharitable straining after gnats.  We Orthodox believe--and I'm sure that many traditionalist Catholics believe the same--that one of the most charitable things we can do in dialog with the other side is to preach that our Church is the One Church that Christ established for our salvation and that it is necessary for our salvation to abandon our heresies and be reunited with this One true Church of Christ.  (Your belief that the Church is some mystical body that includes in some invisible way the faithful of the RC Church together with the faithful of the Orthodox Church is consistent with neither traditional Catholic nor Orthodox understanding of the Church.)

I'm absolutely certain that apologists on both sides will preach this fundamental teaching with total humility and love, for in so doing they will be obeying the Great Commission to preach what they believe is the very Gospel of Jesus Christ.  When I dialog with a Catholic who seeks to preach that I must become Catholic to enter into the fullness of the Way to salvation, I'm actually filled with joy that he loves me enough to do this, even though I disagree with him and am equally prepared to reciprocate the same preaching to him.  (I actually lived with a Catholic housemate with whom I had this kind of loving friendship.  We each preached to each other the truth of our churches and sometimes fell to the temptation to argue with each other, but we each respected what truth we saw in the other's tradition.)  This is the interfaith dialog that I call true ecumenism.
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2006, 12:19:56 AM »

Actually, to most Orthodox and traditionalist Catholics, much of what passes for ecumenical dialogue today is indeed an attempt to whitewash our differences.
 

What you say may be true, but I am not referring to ecumenical dialogue, I am speaking about institutionalised  theology that limits the ability of the Holy Spirit to bring all men to a knowledge of God,  it upholds its version of the Letter of the Law alright, and expects that on that day it will receive a round of applause from the Heavenly court for every time it set things straight, even when it did violence to innocent souls of a different understanding,  sending them away from religion and institution alike.  

This plague is in every church - Pentacostal, Assemblies of God,
Non-Denominational, this is not about Orthodoxy or Catholicism,  its about institutions that brutalize tender souls.

When a baby is just beginning to walk, and heading to the nearest coffee table for stability,  you encourage what is good and praise him.  You don't expect him to stand up and walk confidently into the middle of an empty room.  

I have observed that some of you on this forum are so set in your religious perspective that you cannot recognize the influence of the Holy Spirit on a soul when they are very tender and ignorant, or struggling within themselves to understand the plethora of religious doctrines they have encountered in their spiritual journey.  

Conversion is the work of the Holy Spirit.  He alone knows the true interior of souls and what path they must walk to reach the truth. You would like to show them right away.  God, a tender Father, sees that their hearts are not as yet ready for this, and so He waits and brings them around according to the level of their cooperation.   Along comes a strong, convincing personality,  with sharp criticisms about a direction they were moving in.   They are confused, shamed and withdraw.

There are former protestants on this forum that know exactly what I'm talking about.  And I myself had to go through many metamorphosis's to come to this understanding.

Now, what makes you qualified to know the working of the Holy Spirit where the Orthodox Church somehow does not?

God forgive you brother, I am an ordained Deaconess married to a Bishop.  I did not see fit to put myself in this position, knowing fully my unworthiness,  it was given me by God.  But I must add, that every one of us, no matter what their position in the Church, have the solemn obligation to cultivate an intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit, and understand exactly what He is doing in their church.  And I never said that the Orthodox Church somehow does not,  the true Orthodox  Church knows exactly what He is up to.

St. Seraphim himself said, that the goal of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit.  If you are not passionately persuing this goal, you might want to step back and take another look at your direction.

Yes, I agree that this is true.  Pharisaism is a very common temptation, and, sadly, I have seen much of it in the Protestantism I left and the Orthodoxy I joined.  I've even succumbed to this temptation at times.

Let us pray for one another is this regard.

Many outside of the Orthodox Church will be saved, and many within the Orthodox Church will be condemned.

And the Lord does not leave us in the dark about how He will separate the sheep from the goats.  Let us strive to do good while there is still time.


The one contention with which I disagree, though, is your apparent contention that all polemic debate of theologically divisive issues is automatically uncharitable straining after gnats.  We Orthodox believe--and I'm sure that many traditionalist Catholics believe the same--that one of the most charitable things we can do in dialog with the other side is to preach that our Church is the One Church that Christ established for our salvation and that it is necessary for our salvation to abandon our heresies and be reunited with this One true Church of Christ.  (Your belief that the Church is some mystical body that includes in some invisible way the faithful of the RC Church together with the faithful of the Orthodox Church is consistent with neither traditional Catholic nor Orthodox understanding of the Church.)

You are in error about the Mystical Body of Christ.  Consider that the standard for confessing Christ and being a Christian is the Nicene Creed, and Baptism.  But even beyond that, "Who has known the Mind of God that he may counsel Him?" The Ethiopian Eunuch had a heart disposed to receive the truth, was he a Christian before God, before or after Baptism?

It is certainly a tragedy that they are missing the other empowering Sacraments and profound truths of our faith,  but that does not make them eligible for a brow beating or exclusion.   All who are Christian confess these truths.  Do we want to be in the same camp of those who lay up heavy burdens on the backs of Believers and refuse to lift a finger to help them?

We will not bring fellow Christians to the truth by these methods which are contrary to the ways of the Holy Spirit.  The far less glorious way, the harder way, and the most effective way,  is through prayer and fasting, that Almighty God may grant them the grace of conversion. It must come from conviction, from the inside out.

In the meantime,  there is a concern here for a "love of debate." It can become a lustful and worldly preoccupation leading us away from "love of God and neighbor."

We each preached to each other the truth of our churches and sometimes fell to the temptation to argue with each other, but we each respected what truth we saw in the other's tradition.)  This is the interfaith dialog that I call true ecumenism.  


I would agree that your dialogue with your brother was true ecumenism.  But what fruit did it produce?   Did he convert?   And after these sessions, did you feel humble and little,  or justified and self righteous?  Did your example cause him to love Christ and neighbor with greater zeal?   Or love the rush of a good debate.  What was the fruit?  

To quote St. Seraphim, "Teaching is like throwing stones down from the bellfry.  Whereas living it is like carrying the stones up to the bellfry."

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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2006, 12:37:53 AM »

Now, what makes you qualified to know the working of the Holy Spirit where the Orthodox Church somehow does not?
God forgive you brother, I am an ordained Deaconess married to a Bishop.
Please forgive the uncharitable tone of what I am about to say.  You are arguing with the wrong person on the wrong forum.  For one, if you are married to a Bishop, then you are most clearly a member of an assembly that is most definitely NOT Orthodox and CANNOT be considered to be even remotely authoritative in the Orthodox Church.  In other words, I see no reason to continue this argument.
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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2006, 12:52:13 AM »

Mother Anastasia,

May I ask who this bishop is?
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2006, 01:08:09 AM »

[quote author=PeterTheAleut link=topic=8922.msg118781#msg118781
Please forgive the uncharitable tone of what I am about to say.  You are arguing with the wrong person on the wrong forum.  For one, if you are married to a Bishop, then you are most clearly a member of an assembly that is most definitely NOT Orthodox and CANNOT be considered to be even remotely authoritative in the Orthodox Church.  In other words, I see no reason to continue this argument.
[/quote]

Does this seem so impossible to you from your religious perspective?

Was Peter married?   We were married before he was appointed a Bishop, living eremetical lives and supporting a house of prayer and skete.  And God saw fit to do this thing, with all rights of Apostolic Succession.   So would you stutter and stammer and call this unclean?  

Be careful brother, that you do not enter into presumption and call unholy
what God has made holy.  And as to our faith, clearly, we are pre-schism Orthodox.  Is this forum closed to our faith?
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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2006, 07:35:11 AM »

{ASIDE - not relevant to the topic of the thread, but this post needs to be responded to}
(I will use "you" and "your" in the following discussion only in reference to the "church" that Mother Anastasia belongs to, not referring to her personally in any way)

Was Peter married?   We were married before he was appointed a Bishop, living eremetical lives and supporting a house of prayer and skete.  And God saw fit to do this thing, with all rights of Apostolic Succession.   So would you stutter and stammer and call this unclean?  

Whether or not Peter was married is moot in a discussion like this.  Saying that because Peter was married any bishop can be married denies the work of the Spirit in the Church, and the historical catholicity of the Church.  It was a pre-schism Ecumenical Decision to end the married episcopacy (only celibates, widowers, or men whose wives are away in monasteries for the rest of their lives).  So, as a member of a "pre-schism" Church, you are bound by this decree of the Synod until another Ecumenical Synod comes around to make it moot.  As for Apostolic Succession, it is not some mystical grace passed from one Bishop to another, but is rather a) a continuation of the teaching kerygma and administrative unity of the Apostles as passed from one generation to the Other (the individualistic aspect), and b) the solemn seal that the community and bishop together are in the spirit and teaching of the Apostolic Church, which is the Orthodox Church.  Since your group clearly does not fall into the group of point (b) since you have disregarded a valid and quite active decree of an Ecumenical Synod, then your qualifications under point (a) are useless.

If one is going to participate in an Orthodox board online of all places (not like there are non-online Orthodox boards), then one must be prepared, I hate to say it, to defend the Orthodoxy of their church, especially if the historical record questions their apostolicity or "orthodoxy."

{/ASIDE}
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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2006, 07:46:03 AM »

{ASIDE cont...}
We were married before he was appointed a Bishop, living eremetical lives and supporting a house of prayer and skete.  And God saw fit to do this thing, with all rights of Apostolic Succession.   So would you stutter and stammer and call this unclean?  

Be careful brother, that you do not enter into presumption and call unholy
what God has made holy.  And as to our faith, clearly, we are pre-schism Orthodox.  Is this forum closed to our faith?
I don't believe anyone is calling you or anyone else unholy but there is shock based on your revelation. There is a saying that it is hard to see who is in the Church but very easy to see who is not in the Church. Here is have been talking about people trying to reduce things down to common denominators but yet you are part of a group that does that with Orthodoxy and yet is not Orthodox.

How do I know your group is not part of the Church? While you may call yourself Orthodox and claim Apostolic Succession this does not make one Orthodox, history has shown many Bishops have fallen away from the Church. What tells me that you are not an Orthodox group is first, that you are a Deaconess and yet you are married. The female Deaconate is a role that has been fulfilled by either monastic or widowed women who have reach an advanced age. I will not question your age but your claim of marriage makes the monastic or widowed part impossible. The second tell tale sign your group is not within the Church is that your husband is a Bishop. While historically there was a married episcopate there is not one now. I belong to a group where there are people (including some Bishops) who wish to open the discussion on if a married Episcopate could be brought back. Part of the discussion is that there does not seem to be any Theological problem with this but more of a practical problem. One of the key practical problems is that any group who would do this would fall into schism with the rest of the Church because the whole Church is not ready for this.

So please do not preach down to people about straining the gnats when you yourself have a camel sitting on you. Remove the log from your own eye before you try and remove the splinter from your brother.

You and your group are of course welcome to discuss topics on this board but represent yourself for who you are.
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2006, 12:49:17 PM »

Does this seem so impossible to you from your religious perspective?

Was Peter married? ÂÂ  We were married before he was appointed a Bishop, living eremetical lives and supporting a house of prayer and skete. ÂÂ And God saw fit to do this thing, with all rights of Apostolic Succession. ÂÂ  So would you stutter and stammer and call this unclean? ÂÂ

Be careful brother, that you do not enter into presumption and call unholy
what God has made holy.  And as to our faith, clearly, we are pre-schism Orthodox.  Is this forum closed to our faith?

We all must be reasonable here. Surely, any given person is entitled, according to the laws of the United States, to CLAIM they are a representative or clergyperson of any religious group they may care to imagine.

In fact, I could become an "Orthodox" Bishop with a theological "doctorate" in only a matter of hours, were I willing to fill out various online applications and, of course, pay an "appropriate" fee for such recognition from His Eminence The Metropolitan/Archbishop Dr. Chief Alexander Swift Eagle Justice, D.D., Ph.D., J.D. -Theologian, Academician, Metropolitan/Archbishop and Member of the Imperial Holy Orthodox Synod of the Holy Orthodox Church of All Russia and Appointed Chief Patriarch for United States of America - California, Mexico and for ALL Latin American Countries, Metropolitan/Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Native Americans and President of the College of Bishops of the Mexican National Catholic Church, Metropolitan/Archbishop of the Holy Orthodox Native American Catholic Archdiocese and Chief Patriarch of the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Holy Orthodox Native American Catholic Church, Bishop of The National Pentecostal Overcoming Churches of the World Inc., whose Web site can be found here: http://www.education-1.net/chancellor.htm

HOWEVER, my CLAIM to such an office and such a Church would be a matter of SELF-DEFINITION. The question becomes, especially in a forum such as this, WHO ELSE EXACTLY recognizes such claims? Does the current Roman Catholic Pope of Rome? Does the current Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople? Does any Synod who is in communion with said Patriarch recognize my organization, ordination, et al.? Does the Coptic Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria do so? And so on...

Hence, the honesty issue. One may claim anything. One has a legal right to self-definition. But one must also realize that other people have the same right, and definition often involves exclusion. I listed recognized Bishops of three major Christian communions: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Coptic/Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox. All three types of Bishops, and their communicants, CLAIM they are members of the True Vine of Christ, but they should -- and do -- have the common courtesy and good sense to self-identify in a way that honestly accounts for the fact that they are still distinct from each other...

One should be forthcoming and clear about which Synod of Bishops one has submitted to.
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2006, 04:42:32 PM »

So, as a member of a "pre-schism" Church, you are bound by this decree of the Synod until another Ecumenical Synod comes around to make it moot.  As for Apostolic Succession, .....  Since your group clearly does not fall into the group of point (b) since you have disregarded a valid and quite active decree of an Ecumenical Synod, then your qualifications under point (a) are useless

For someone so difinitively knowledgeable....how could you be missing a few of these facts?

The Apostolic Canons, which follow Holy Scriptures, accept married Bishops. The local anti-mission council of Trullo (also called the Quinisext council) which opposed married Bishops was unratified at the time of the Great Schism of 1054. The Undivided Church rejected the idea of requiring all churches to elect only monks as Bishops. The only canons of Trullo which have ecumenical status are Canon 73 and 82 because they were the only canons read into the record of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. The Seventh Ecumenical Council resisted wholesale written approval of Trullo, and Trullo is not listed among the Councils accepted by the Seventh Ecumenical Council. One reason Trullo may have been rejected is that it states that valid Baptisms must be performed only in properly constructed church buildings. That is incorrect Sacramental Theology which would invalidate Baptisms by missionaries, or Baptisms in churches which are under persecution by the "State."

The Eastern custom of limiting candidacy for the office of Bishop to celibate clergy is only that: a custom like that of total clerical celibacy among the modern Roman Catholics. On that basis is it acceptable practice to require that Bishops in the Eastern churches be celibate. However, the claim that a married man cannot be Consecrated a Bishop is erroneous Sacramental Theology. It is a denial of the Holy Orders of present day Bishops because they are derived from the married Apostles and married Bishops of the early years of the Church. It is also a claim that what was once a valid practice of the Church is now heterodox. It is a claim that the fashion of the times and ethnic custom are the arbiters of what is proper in the Church. That is schismatic thinking. The fact that the local council which tried to impose this custom was itself rejected indicates the problematical nature of this question.

The case for married Bishops has Orthodox precedents. After all, eleven of the men that Christ chose as Apostles were married and many of the Bishops of the early Church were married. [St. Matthew 8:14.]
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2006, 05:02:33 PM »

We all must be reasonable here.

I would agree with that.  Just to clarify matters, Bishop Athanasius was chosen by his ArchBishop to be consecrated.  He did not commit the sin of Simony, buying his consecration. I hope I have made myself clear.

Second of all,  he is an Autocephalous Bishop who you will find listed in the next edition of Karl Pruger's Directory of Autocephalous Bishops of the Apostolic Succession.  He has both Western Rite Orthodox and Latin Rite, Utrecht Succession faculties.

The fact that he is not a member of YOUR particular religious institution,  does not make him unqualified, invalid, or lesser than any of your Bishops in the eyes of Almighty God.  The fact is, he was called by God,  whom You don't seem to recognize as the legitimate Authority of the Church.  Was not Paul an Apostle before he was recognized by Peter?

This is my problem with your thinking.  

You think as man thinks.

You think as Tradition thinks.

You think as the Greek Church thinks.  

You think as the Russian Church thinks.  

When will you start thinking as God thinks?

Don't you see that in your attempt to oppose and discredit the RCC and other branches of Orthodoxy,  you have become even worse in your arrogance?

When one worships God, living his true purpose, to know, to love, and to serve God,  one becomes like Him in His thinking.  

If I were a non believer coming into this forum, I would have to conclude that the purpose of life for many here is to know, to love, and to serve Tradition.


Strengthen what remains Brothers.

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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2006, 05:39:59 PM »

I would agree with that.  Just to clarify matters, Bishop Athanasius was chosen by his ArchBishop to be consecrated.  He did not commit the sin of Simony, buying his consecration. I hope I have made myself clear.

Second of all,  he is an Autocephalous Bishop who you will find listed in the next edition of Karl Pruger's Directory of Autocephalous Bishops of the Apostolic Succession.  He has both Western Rite Orthodox and Latin Rite, Utrecht Succession faculties.

The fact that he is not a member of YOUR particular religious institution,  does not make him unqualified, invalid, or lesser than any of your Bishops in the eyes of Almighty God.  The fact is, he was called by God,  whom You don't seem to recognize as the legitimate Authority of the Church.  Was not Paul an Apostle before he was recognized by Peter?
No Canonical Orthodox Bishop on the planet recognizes your Bishop.  That's how we know.  Sorry, but that is the truth.

When will you start thinking as God thinks?
And how do we you know that you do?  I know that I sure as heck don't - much to my dismay.
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2006, 05:56:23 PM »

I would agree with that.  Just to clarify matters, Bishop Athanasius was chosen by his ArchBishop to be consecrated.  He did not commit the sin of Simony, buying his consecration. I hope I have made myself clear.

Second of all,  he is an Autocephalous Bishop who you will find listed in the next edition of Karl Pruger's Directory of Autocephalous Bishops of the Apostolic Succession.  He has both Western Rite Orthodox and Latin Rite, Utrecht Succession faculties.

The fact that he is not a member of YOUR particular religious institution,  does not make him unqualified, invalid, or lesser than any of your Bishops in the eyes of Almighty God.  The fact is, he was called by God,  whom You don't seem to recognize as the legitimate Authority of the Church.  Was not Paul an Apostle before he was recognized by Peter?

This is my problem with your thinking.  

You think as man thinks.

You think as Tradition thinks.

You think as the Greek Church thinks.  

You think as the Russian Church thinks.  

When will you start thinking as God thinks?

Don't you see that in your attempt to oppose and discredit the RCC and other branches of Orthodoxy,  you have become even worse in your arrogance?

When one worships God, living his true purpose, to know, to love, and to serve God,  one becomes like Him in His thinking.  

If I were a non believer coming into this forum, I would have to conclude that the purpose of life for many here is to know, to love, and to serve Tradition.


Strengthen what remains Brothers.



How dare you lecture anyone here about "true" Orthodoxy.  You are in a state of delusion and great pride and are CLEARLY vagante and NOT Orthodox.  I hope the moderators kick you off this forum.
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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2006, 06:07:18 PM »

Thank you Mother Anastasia for being a generous, reasonable, and constructive contributor to this thread. I hope you do not desist now.

She's done nothing but continuously pass judgment upon every Orthodox poster in this thread, insinuated that she is holier than all others here, and claimed to know the mind of the Holy Spirit.  Is that what passes for "generous, reasonable, and constructive" contributions in Rome's eyes?
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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2006, 06:10:30 PM »

No Canonical Orthodox Bishop on the planet recognizes your Bishop.  

Everyone simply claims the fulness of canonicity for his own position and, in the name of it, condemns and denounces as uncanonical the ecclesiastical status of others.

real motivations ..... have seldom anything to do with canonical convictions; what matters is victory. We live in the poisoned atmosphere of anathemas and excommunications, court cases and litigations, dubious consecrations of dubious bishops, hatred, calumny, lies! But do we think about the irreparable moral damage all this inflicts to our people?

We teach our children to be "proud" of Orthodoxy, we constantly congratulate ourselves about all kinds of historic events and achievements, our church publications distill an almost unbearable triumphalism and optimism, yet, if we were true to the spirit of our faith we ought to repent in "sackcloth and ashes," we ought to cry day and night about the sad, the tragical state of our Church. If "canonicity" is anything but a pharisaic and legalistic self-righteousness, if it has anything to do with the spirit of Christ and the tradition of His Body, the Church, we must openly proclaim that the situation in which we all live is utterly uncanonical regardless of all the justifications and sanctions that every one finds for his "position." For nothing can justify the bare fact: Our Church is divided.


Taken from "Problems of Orthodoxy in America" by Father Alexamder Schmenmann, OCA



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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2006, 06:26:43 PM »

are CLEARLY vagante and NOT Orthodox.  

The actual word "Vagante" actually means, "A vagrant bishop without a See or diocese", etc.  And this came about in centuries past (before electricity, during the age of candle use for lighting, because of wars which caused for bishops to travel outside of their geographical areas as the war from invasions impacted the religious praxis and beliefs of the people by forced conversion or death to unchristian religions).

Later, after the United States of America was formed, the Roman Catholic Church, The Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and others did much the same by coming to the shores of the U.S.A. and started their own diocese in much the same manner.  Even in these times, we see this happening by the Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and other Churches.

 Yet, as with everything, while much good has come out of such vagante Episcopi, so it happens in that which is called the "Autocephalous" and "Independent Movement" groups who are not under the control of the Roman Pope or any one of the other Patriarchates, good and bad does follow too, no differently than in the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches.

The larger mega-churches such as those who belong to either the Vatican based Roman Church, or one of the Patriarchates; would have you believe that unless you belong to either one of the two Jurisdictions, you are not in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of truth.  This is unkind and not true whatsoever.  There are articles on this website which prove this point


http://www.apostle1.com/Vagante1.htm

The Roman Catholic Church and some of the Eastern Orthodox Churches take an arrogant, often elitist approach in which they do not necessarily believe that the Church is large enough to accommodate various philosophies, and even theologies, that are not diametrically opposed to the faith and morals taught by the Apostolic Church, forcing their own by actions of intimidation, and often through newsletters or notices to the faithful with untruthful claims and inaccurate statements about those not under them or one of the primary Patriarchs directly.




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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2006, 07:05:45 PM »

Mother Anastasia,

Revieiwing your posts on this thread:
  • You admit your membership of a "pre-schism Orthodox" jurisdiction.
  • The faith of your institution you proclaim to be the true faith.  How else do you justify talking down to us and telling us we're wrong so consistently?
  • You feel it necessary to proselytize us away from our belief system, essentially labeling us as heretics.

Does the above NOT describe the very practice for which you judge us?  I'm afraid that in pointing your finger at us, you're only pointing three fingers back at yourself.
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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2006, 07:14:48 PM »

Well, that is an interesting responce.  Roll Eyes

Well, one could describe your decision to call Mother Anastasia's contempt towards Orthodox "generous, reasonable, and constructive" as interesting, too.
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2006, 07:17:49 PM »

Thank you Mother Anastasia for being a generous, reasonable, and constructive contributor to this thread. I hope you do not desist now.

Peace be with you.  Kiss

you've got to be kidding  Undecided ...right?
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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2006, 07:25:51 PM »

What is your problem?
Someone is nice to someone who isn't Orthodox and you have a problem with that?
Someone says Christian non-judgmental things and you have a problem?
Someone reminds you about not being judgmental and exclusionary for the sake of it and you have a problem?

What on earth is going on here?
I always seem to get this from Orthodox people on the net. Why?
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« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2006, 07:32:30 PM »

Mother Anastasia,

Quote
Was not Paul an Apostle before he was recognized by Peter?

Supposing that we are going according to the historical accounts in the New Testament...in a sense yes and in a sense no. Obviously he was "hand picked" and converted by God, unlike almost all other Christians. He was supposedly taught the Gospel directly from God, and at first did not go to the established Church (Gal. 1:12-17). However, even in his conversion story the Church is involved, because it was a member of the established Church who healed his blindness, and then baptized him (Acts 9:1-18). Following this, he spent time with the Christians who were in Damascus (Acts 9:19). When he went to Jerusalem a short time later, he again "joined himself to the disciples" (Acts 9:26-28). Then, fourteen years later, God told Paul to go to the Apostles and tell them what he had been preaching (Gal. 2:1-3; cf Acts 15 and 21).

Why? If the Gospel of Paul was directly from God, why did he have to tell the leaders in Jerusalem anything?  The answer is that he did not have to defend God or God's revelation, but rather that he had to demonstrate that what he was preaching was God's teaching. Likewise, surely God can speak through your husband, I don't think anyone here denies that. However, if he makes a claim to some position within the Church, or some authority, or revelation, then he has to expect that other Christians will test his beliefs. And this test will not be based on things like "God called me" (a claim anyone can make, but no one can prove), but will be based on things like doctrinal belief, orthodox practice, etc.
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« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2006, 07:36:58 PM »

What is your problem?

My problem is that someone comes here, begins judging and condemning the Orthodox posters in this thread, and you applaud it and hold it up as a good thing.  
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« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2006, 07:53:00 PM »

     The faith of your institution you proclaim to be the true faith.  How else do you justify talking down to us and telling us we're wrong so consistently?[/li
    • You feel it necessary to proselytize us away from our belief system, essentially labeling us as heretics.
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    "According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it.


    But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ." I Corinthians, 3

    There is an absolute necessity for tradition.  But it should never become an end in itself.  There are parts of our belief system, when not exercised with Godly discretion, that can do violence to the Gospel and to the heart of the law.  When this happens we stand in opposition to God Himself, and are actively destroying what He is actively recreating.  

    "Brothers, I could not talk to you as spiritual people, but as fleshly people, as infants in Christ, fed you milk, not solid food, because you were unable to take it.  Indeed, you are not able, even now, for you are still of the flesh.  While there is jealousy and rivalry among you,are you not of the flesh and behaving in an ordinary human way?  Whenever someone says, "I belong to Paul,"  and another, "I belong to Apollos," are you not merely human? "  

    "For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers....that there are rivalries among you.

    "I mean that each of you is saying, "I belong to Paul," or "I belong to Apollos," or "I belong to Kephas," or I belong to Christ.

    Is Christ divided?  Was Paul crucified for you?  Or were you Baptized in the name of Paul?  

    "I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose."


    May we of the Faith, learn to live on this earth, as the angels and saints are now living in Heaven.[/list]
    « Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 07:54:35 PM by Mother Anastasia » Logged

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    « Reply #35 on: May 03, 2006, 08:19:23 PM »

    Mother Anastasia,

     And this test will not be based on things like "God called me" (a claim anyone can make, but no one can prove), but will be based on things like doctrinal belief, orthodox practice, etc.

    What I was simply stating is that he never went out looking for someone to consecrate him.  He was already a priest and his Archbishop approached him about consecration.  After prayer and discernment,  he accepted.  Everything happened in a very orderly manner, according to OUR rite.   I cannot help it that OTHER rites do not recognize his
    legitimacy.  He was simply responding to what he perceived to be God's call, to him.

    Perhaps it would be helpful, for you to look at this page on our site:http://www.ourladylightofthewoods.org/holy_signs.php  to better understand our discernment process.

    If there is to be true unity between rites there needs to be more discernment and less knee jerk reaction.  More time spent before God in honest prayer, and being filled with love for oneanother, and less time in books trying to find more ways to divide.

    Understand that we may be newly Orthodox (officially),  but we are not new in the Sacramental Church, nor are we new to the Christian Faith.  Our mission is to strengthen what is alive, and  born of the Holy Spirit in the Sacramental Faith of the Apostles and to encourage Orthodox and Latin as well to make good use of the graces shed in both.  If others follow this example, true and uncompromising unity will not be far behind.

     
    « Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 08:20:16 PM by Mother Anastasia » Logged

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    « Reply #36 on: May 03, 2006, 08:30:22 PM »

    Mother Anastasia,

    When he went to Jerusalem a short time later, he again "joined himself to the disciples" (Acts 9:26-28).

    Brother, there is nothing we would like better than to do exactly that.

    The problem is that we cannot possibly join ourselves to those who are full of rancor, bitterness  and division. We have looked, and looked, and looked.  As well as weeping many tears.  

    Until the Almighty has mercy on us and brings us someone we can trust, someone whose fruits are of the Holy Spirit,  from his heart  to the outer parts of his institution, until such a one is sent to us by God, we have only the Saints and the angels and the Father's comforting shoulder to rest our heads upon.



    « Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 08:32:40 PM by Mother Anastasia » Logged

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    « Reply #37 on: May 03, 2006, 09:37:39 PM »

    A vagante simply put is a clergyman who claims apostolic succession but doesn't belong to a real church as that's commonly understood. (Not Eastern Orthodox, not Oriental, not Assyrian, not Roman Catholic, not Anglican, not Utrecht-communion Old Catholic - except one church in Canada there are none of these in North America! - and not Swedish Lutheran.)

    Most of them are former Roman Catholics or former Anglicans.

    In the Middle Ages in the West there were bishops who were disciplined by the church, deprived of their dioceses, for some reason or another, and some of them became travellers ('wanderers', hence the Latin name vagantes), uncanonically offering their services (such as ordinations) where they stayed.

    To the Orthodox churches, 'lines of succession' outside their communion at least functionally mean nothing, so as far as they're concerned, Mother Anastasia's husband isn't a bishop.

    Good rule of thumb: if you come across a church or cleric that uses some form of that expression a lot, run like hell.

    There are only two Orthodox churches in North America or the world for that matter that have Western Rite churches, the Antiochians and ROCOR, and neither has Western Rite bishops nor married bishops. (There's also a fringe group from the Ethiopian Church that claims a few Western Rite churches in America.)

    There is no such thing as an autocephalous Western Rite Orthodox church.

    Actually, Mother Anastasia, you and your husband are not Orthodox. He is a vagante bishop.

    And real Orthodox nuns aren't married.

    Presenting yourselves as such here is indeed offensive.
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    « Reply #38 on: May 03, 2006, 10:21:41 PM »

    Well said, Young Fogey!

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    « Reply #39 on: May 03, 2006, 11:54:47 PM »

    Mother Anastasia, Christ is Risen!

    I have looked at your website and find it interesting but not very clear as to who the Archbishop was who called your  husband to become a bishop according to your rite.

    There is an obvious second question that has not been asked.  Are you a nun with the title of Mother or  do you have title of Mother  from being a deaconess?

    If you are a nun and have sepeseparatedm your husband, the Bishop, and entered a monastery then  your relationship would not be much different than those of our Bishops who were married and their wives went into a monsamonasterylife so they may serve  in their calling as a Bishop.  If you are not a nun but a deaconess  and residing with your husband, then you would be like the Anglican Church in which many deaconesses and even female Priests are married and living with their husbands, not an acceptable practice in the Eastern Orthodox or Coptic Orthodox Churches. As communion indicates comunity, sadly their is no communion.

    It is obvious however, that your Rite is not one that we are in communion with and we would not be able to accept as historic Christianity due to its somewhat cafeteria approach to historic canonicity. I will of course continue to call you  Mother Anastasia as a courtesy just as I would call  an Epsicopal Episcopal by her appropriate Title, your Bishop as Bishop Athanasius, as a politeness and courtesy accorded  by political protocol throughout the world, without the recognition of his lineage=authority.

    Thank you in advance for answering my questions posed.

    In Christ,
    Thomas
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    « Reply #40 on: May 04, 2006, 02:31:36 AM »

    Mother Anastasia, Christ is Risen!

    I have looked at your website and find it interesting but not very clear as to who the Archbishop was who called your  husband to become a bishop according to your rite.
    I've also looked at your website.  While I saw a lot of spirituality there that I can admire as an Orthodox Christian, I am concerned by some of the things I saw there.  The first thing that strikes me is that the site presents an ecumenist belief that both the Eastern and Roman churches departed from traditional Christian faith.  This essentially implies that there was a third way that was at one time invisible.  If this is so, then why did neither of the two most important Christian bodies ever recognize this third way?  Why is it that this invisible way is making itself manifest as an institutional church with bishops, priests, and deacons just within the past few years?  Has Christ allowed BOTH halves of His Church (if indeed the Church could be divided into halves) to fall into hell so that a third new way is needed for our salvation?  Each of the RC and EO traditions have traditionally opposed any idea of a third way, seeing in itself alone the fullness of the Church of Christ.

    Even though the two sides have often opposed each other, their unanimous witness to the NON-existence of a third way should be convincing to any traditional Christian that there is no third way.  The fullness of Truth resides in either the Eastern Orthodox tradition or the Roman Catholic tradition; the task of every Christian pursuing Truth in traditional Christianity is to discern which one of these two traditions is right.  It is not wise to follow after some third way, because this would require that someone create a third way that never existed before.  This path is the essence of arrogance and disobedience.  I would rather people submit themselves to traditional Roman Catholicism than to a way that is recognized as neither traditional nor canonical by either the canonical Roman Catholic Church or the canonical Orthodox Church.

    (I guess that one could weave the above statements into the subject of this thread, seeing that the modern heresy of ecumenism is indeed a heresy that many Catholics have followed together with more than just a few Orthodox.  Many of the threads of modern ecumenism are indeed condemned unofficially as heresy by both traditionalist Catholics and the Orthodox, for such ecumenism is not faithful to the ecclesiology of either tradition.)
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    « Reply #41 on: May 04, 2006, 04:13:58 AM »

    Excepting that you have said that one part of the egg is dependant upon the other two partsquoting montalban



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    « Reply #42 on: May 04, 2006, 06:14:34 AM »

    There is no such thing as an autocephalous Western Rite Orthodox church.
    Actually, Mother Anastasia, you and your husband are not Orthodox. He is a vagante bishop.
    And real Orthodox nuns aren't married.
    Presenting yourselves as such here is indeed offensive.




    I sympathize with your perspective, Brother.

    And I forgive your ignorance.
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    « Reply #43 on: May 04, 2006, 06:20:58 AM »

    Well said, Young Fogey!

    And I sympathize with you too,  and forgive your ignorance as well. Smiley
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    « Reply #44 on: May 04, 2006, 06:42:11 AM »

    Mother Anastasia, Christ is Risen!
    There is an obvious second question that has not been asked.  Are you a nun with the title of Mother or  do you have title of Mother  from being a deaconess?
    f you are a nun and have seperated from your husband, the Bishop, and entered a monastery then  your relationship would not be much different than those of our Bishops who were married and their wives went into a monsatery for life so they may serve  in their calling as a Bishop.
     

    I was a professed, habited 3rd order Franciscan Sister before I met my husband.  He also was a 3rd order habited Brother.  It is permitted for the 3rd order to marry.
    The title "Mother" was given at my ordination.  I understand we do not share the same tradition, hopefully we can share our love for Christ and Souls.

    It is obvious however, that your Rite is not one that we are in communion with and we would not be able to accept as historic Christianity due to its somewhat cafeteria approach to historic canonicity. I will of course continue to call you  Mother Anastasia as a courtesy just as I would call  an Epsicopal Deaconess by her appropriate Title, your Bishop as Bishop Athanasius, as a politeness and courtesy accoded  by Political protocol throughout the world, without the recognition of his lineage=authority.

    I understand, thank you for your graciousness.

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