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« on: May 04, 2006, 09:36:58 PM »

At last! Some intelligent views on Islam are now voiced here in Australia…

Pell challenges Islam - o ye, of little tolerant faith
By Linda Morris, Religious Affairs Reporter
May 5, 2006
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AUSTRALIA'S most influential Catholic has said the Koran is riddled with "invocations to violence" and the central challenge of Islam lies in the struggle between moderate and extremist forces as the faith spreads into a "childless Europe".
The Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell, said reading the Koran, the sacred text of Islam, was vital "because the challenge of Islam will be with us for the remainder of our lives - at least".
But in a speech to US Catholic business leaders, Dr Pell said Western democracy was also suffering a crisis of confidence as evidenced by the decline in fertility rates. "Pagan emptiness" and Western fears of the uncontrollable forces of nature had contributed to "hysteric and extreme claims" about global warming.
"In the past, pagans sacrificed animals and even humans in vain attempts to placate capricious and cruel gods. Today they demand a reduction in carbon dioxide emissions."
Dr Pell said the September 11 terrorist attacks had been his personal wake-up call to understand Islam better.
He had tried to reconcile claims that Islam was a faith of peace with those that suggested the Koran legitimised the killings of non-Muslims.
While there was room for optimism in fruitful dialogue between faiths and the common human desire for peace, a pessimistic response began "with the Koran itself".
Errors of facts, inconsistencies, anachronisms and other defects were not unknown to scholars but difficult for Muslims to debate openly, he said.
"In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages."
Last year, Dr Pell courted controversy when he drew a link between Islam and communism.
His speech on Islam and Western democracies was delivered in Florida on February 4 but only appeared on the archdiocese's website on Wednesday.
Dr Pell said every nation and every religion, including Catholicism, had "crimes in their histories". In the same way, Islam could not airbrush its "shadows".
Claims of Muslim tolerance of Christian and Jewish minorities were largely mythical and he wondered about the possibility of theological development in Islam when the Koran was said to come directly from God.
"Considered strictly on its own terms, Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for far-reaching renovation is severely limited," he said.
However, like Christianity, Islam was a living religion and the existence of moderate Islam in Indonesia was proof of the softening impact of human intervention.
Democracy and moderation did not always go hand in hand and an "anorexic vision of democracy and the human person was no match for Islam", he said.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/pell-challenges-islam--o-ye-of-little-tolerant-faith/2006/05/04/1146335872951.html

The full article is at
http://www.sydney.catholic.org.au/archbishop/addresses/200627_681.shtml
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« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2006, 11:55:07 AM »

Thanks for the post. The links were great reading.
I am a bit troubled that Cardinal Pell had not really read the Koran during the 30 yrs he mentioned in the article..
But, I am happy he finally did. I am not sure what to think of his comments yet as I know so little myself about it.
Is Cardinal Pell the only one speaking out openly about the Koran this way?
It seems to me all I ever hear is fuzzy happy talk about how great Islam is from the RC and frankly it is distrubing and makes me think false ecumenism is abound in the RC.
Thanks for the post!
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« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2006, 12:05:36 PM »

Good to learn some are opening their eyes in the wider 'Christian' world. Something I came across only yesterday is 'taqqiya', or what might be term dissimulation. This concept is more usually found among Shia Moslems, but appears to allow Moslems to deceive non-Moslems on matters of faith or doctrine. Does this mean when Moslems make appropriate noises in response to the concerns of their non-Moslem neighbours, we are left to weigh up whether they are responding openly, or on the basis of 'taqqiya'?
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« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2006, 12:49:42 PM »

Good to learn some are opening their eyes in the wider 'Christian' world. Something I came across only yesterday is 'taqqiya', or what might be term dissimulation. This concept is more usually found among Shia Moslems, but appears to allow Moslems to deceive non-Moslems on matters of faith or doctrine. Does this mean when Moslems make appropriate noises in response to the concerns of their non-Moslem neighbours, we are left to weigh up whether they are responding openly, or on the basis of 'taqqiya'?

I agree it is a question to ask. Are you aware that Jehovah's Witnesses also think it is aok to lie about things to "non-believers"? there are many things JW's do that paralell Islam.
I personally do not believe anything a Muslim will say about their faith and would prefer to get the truth about Islam from a credible Orthodox (RC or Orthodox) viewpoint only as it will be hopefully a more accurate version of what Islam REALLY means.
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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2006, 07:45:11 PM »

I must admit that I have never considered seriously anything said to me by JWs or Mormons.
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2006, 08:00:33 PM »

I agree it is wise not to care what JW or anyone in a cult has to say, but my mom is one, and when 9/11 happened I started asking myself why I ignored Islam.
So-called Christians are borrowing off their faith.
How stupid of me to think they could not ever matter in the big picture!
I never knew what the picture was!!!
I am amazed by the whole thing. It defys reason. Clay pidgeons, flat world, so many other wierd things in the Koran.
How can someone believe this (*&^?
I feel compelled to know more about this "faith".

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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2006, 04:47:21 PM »

Good to learn some are opening their eyes in the wider 'Christian' world. Something I came across only yesterday is 'taqqiya', or what might be term dissimulation. This concept is more usually found among Shia Moslems, but appears to allow Moslems to deceive non-Moslems on matters of faith or doctrine. Does this mean when Moslems make appropriate noises in response to the concerns of their non-Moslem neighbours, we are left to weigh up whether they are responding openly, or on the basis of 'taqqiya'?

This link:  http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/www/News/Trifkovic05/NewsST010305.html will take you to this article by Dr. Serge Trifkovic where he discusses this Moslem practice of taqqiya.  Also you can check out other portions of Dr. Trifkovic's book entitled Defeating Jihad which I have found to be a very informative, albeit frightening, collection of insights into the Moslem-Jihadist mindset.  I'm also reading a book by Paul Sperry  Infiltration: How Moslem Spies and Subversives Have Penetrated Washington. which deals more with the secular impact of Islam.  It also has sections dealing with taqqiya.  I would also recommend reading St. John of Damascus' critique of Islam found at http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx which is written in the early 700s so it is one of the earliest assessments of what Islam is especially since St. John lived in the caliphate and among the nobility.

In IC XC

Scamandrius
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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2006, 07:11:02 PM »

Thank you kindly - I had only just left Amazon immediately before coming to this forum, and have indeed ordered a copy of Dr Trifkovic's book. Being surrounded, no exaggeration, by Mosques I hope reading it will educate rather than induce any paranoia. Best wishes.
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« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2006, 12:31:59 PM »

My parcel from Amazon arrived today - amid all the news of terrorist arrests just down the road, following the thwarting, God be praised, of attempted attacks on aircraft due to leave the UK for the US.

Got Serge Trifkovic's book which is a very politically incorrect guide to Islam and also The Myth of Islamic Tolerance: How Islamic law treats non-Muslims, edited by Robert Spencer.

Timely and not light reading it appears on first scanning.
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2010, 12:10:35 PM »


"In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages."

Any 'violence' found in the Koran was copied from the Holy Bible.

 
Quote
of Christian and Jewish minorities were largely mythical and he wondered about the possibility of theological development in Islam when the Koran was said to come directly from God.


The Koran never claims to be divinely inspired.
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2010, 01:11:25 PM »


"In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages."

Any 'violence' found in the Koran was copied from the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible says nothing about Muhammad's maghazii and siyar (campaigns and raids).  that the biography of Muhammad was arranged around his campaigns should tell you something.
Quote
of Christian and Jewish minorities were largely mythical and he wondered about the possibility of theological development in Islam when the Koran was said to come directly from God.


The Koran never claims to be divinely inspired.
Have you ever read the Qur'an? Because such a statement would seem to indicate no.
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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2010, 01:20:52 PM »


"In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages."

Any 'violence' found in the Koran was copied from the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible says nothing about Muhammad's maghazii and siyar (campaigns and raids).  that the biography of Muhammad was arranged around his campaigns should tell you something.


There is no 'violence' related anyone named 'Muhammad' in the Koran.

Quote

Quote
of Christian and Jewish minorities were largely mythical and he wondered about the possibility of theological development in Islam when the Koran was said to come directly from God.


The Koran never claims to be divinely inspired.
Have you ever read the Qur'an? Because such a statement would seem to indicate no.

Then show us an ayah...good luck...
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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2010, 01:46:45 PM »


"In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages."

Any 'violence' found in the Koran was copied from the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible says nothing about Muhammad's maghazii and siyar (campaigns and raids).  that the biography of Muhammad was arranged around his campaigns should tell you something.


There is no 'violence' related anyone named 'Muhammad' in the Koran.[/quote]

Quote
[47.1] (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.
[47.2] And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.
[47.3] That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

Quote
of Christian and Jewish minorities were largely mythical and he wondered about the possibility of theological development in Islam when the Koran was said to come directly from God.


The Koran never claims to be divinely inspired.
Have you ever read the Qur'an? Because such a statement would seem to indicate no.

Then show us an ayah...good luck...

Quote
[2.1] Alif Lam Mim.
[2.2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[2.3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
[2.4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter....
[2.185] The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
Quote
[3.1] Alif Lam Mim.
[3.2] Allah, (there is) no god but He, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all things subsist
[3.3] He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
[3.4] Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah they shall have a severe chastisement; and Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.
Quote
[4.82] Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
[4.162] But the firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to. you and what was revealed before you, and those who keep up prayers and those who give the poor-rate and the believers in Allah and the last day, these it is whom We will give a mighty reward.
[4.163] Surely We have revealed to you as We revealed to Nuh, and the prophets after him, and We revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and Isa and Ayub and Yunus and Haroun and Sulaiman and We gave to Dawood
[4.164] And (We sent) apostles We have mentioned to you before and apostles we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed His Word, speaking (to him):
[4.165] (We sent) apostles as the givers of good news and as warners, so that people should not have a plea against Allah after the (coming of) apostles; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4.166] But Allah bears witness by what He has revealed to you that He has revealed it with His knowledge, and the angels bear witness (also); and Allah is sufficient as a witness.
[4.167] Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and hinder (men) from Allah's way, they indeed have strayed off into a remote
[4.168] Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and act unjustly Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to a path
[4.169] Except the path of hell, to abide in it for ever, and this is easy to Allah.
[4.170] O people! surely the Apostle has come to you with the truth from your Lord, therefore believe, (it shall be) good for you and If you disbelieve, then surely whatever is in the heavens and the earth is Allah's; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
Quote
5.99] Nothing is (incumbent) on the Apostle but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.
[5.100] Say: The bad and the good are not equal, though the abundance of the bad may please you; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah, O men of understanding, that you may be successful.
[5.101] O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
[5.102] A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them.
[5.103] Allah has not ordained (the making of) a bahirah or a saibah or a wasilah or a hami but those who disbelieve fabricate a lie against Allah, and most of them do not understand.
[5.104] And when it is said to them, Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Apostle, they say: That on which we found our fathers is sufficient for us. What! even though their fathers knew nothing and did not follow the right way.
Quote
6.4] And there does not come to them any communication of the communications of their Lord but they turn aside from it
[6.5] So they have indeed rejected the truth when it came to them; therefore the truth of what they mocked at will shine upon them.
[6.6] Do they not consider how many a generation We have destroyed before them, whom We had established in the earth as We have not established you, and We sent the clouds pouring rain on them in abundance, and We made the rivers to flow beneath them, then We destroyed them on account of their faults and raised up after them another generation.
[6.7] And if We had sent to you a writing on a paper, then they had touched it with their hands, certainly those who disbelieve would have said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.
[6.8] And they say: Why has not an angel been sent down to him? And had We sent down an angel, the matter would have certainly been decided and then they would not have been respited.
[6.9] And if We had made him angel, We would certainly have made him a man, and We would certainly have made confused to them what they make confused.
[6.10] And certainly apostles before you were mocked at, but that which they mocked at encompassed the scoffers among them.
[6.11] Say: Travel in the land, then see what was the end of the rejecters.
[6.12] Say: To whom belongs what is in the heavens and the earth? Say: To Allah; He has ordained mercy on Himself; most certainly He will gather you on the resurrection day-- there is no doubt about it. (As for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe.
[6.13] And to Him belongs whatever dwells in the night and the day; and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
[6.14] Say: Shall I take a guardian besides Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and He feeds (others) and is not (Himself) fed. Say: I am commanded to be the first who submits himself, and you should not be of the polytheists.
[6.15] Say: Surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the chastisement of a grievous day.
[6.16] He from whom it is averted on that day, Allah indeed has shown mercy to him; and this is a manifest achievement.
[6.17] And if Allah touch you with affliction, there is none to take it off but He; and if He visit you with good, then He has power over all things.
[6.18] And He is the Supreme, above His servants; and He is the Wise, the Aware.
[6.19] Say: What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say: Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say: I do not bear witness. Say: He is only one God, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).
[6.20] Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons; (as for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe.
[6.21] And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah or (he who) gives the lie to His communications; surely the unjust will not be successful.
I could go on, but I doubt the necessity and the profit in that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 01:49:43 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2010, 03:15:58 PM »


Any 'violence' found in the Koran was copied from the Holy Bible.

This cannot be the claim of a genuine Christian, but only of an Islamic troll who pretends to be Christian in order to play naughty games in a Christian forum.  Grin
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« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2010, 04:58:55 PM »


"In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages."

Any 'violence' found in the Koran was copied from the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible says nothing about Muhammad's maghazii and siyar (campaigns and raids).  that the biography of Muhammad was arranged around his campaigns should tell you something.


There is no 'violence' related anyone named 'Muhammad' in the Koran.

Quote
[47.1] (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.
[47.2] And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.
[47.3] That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

Quote
of Christian and Jewish minorities were largely mythical and he wondered about the possibility of theological development in Islam when the Koran was said to come directly from God.


The Koran never claims to be divinely inspired.
Have you ever read the Qur'an? Because such a statement would seem to indicate no.

Then show us an ayah...good luck...

Quote
[2.1] Alif Lam Mim.
[2.2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[2.3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
[2.4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter....
[2.185] The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
Quote
[3.1] Alif Lam Mim.
[3.2] Allah, (there is) no god but He, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all things subsist
[3.3] He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
[3.4] Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah they shall have a severe chastisement; and Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.
Quote
[4.82] Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
[4.162] But the firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to. you and what was revealed before you, and those who keep up prayers and those who give the poor-rate and the believers in Allah and the last day, these it is whom We will give a mighty reward.
[4.163] Surely We have revealed to you as We revealed to Nuh, and the prophets after him, and We revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and Isa and Ayub and Yunus and Haroun and Sulaiman and We gave to Dawood
[4.164] And (We sent) apostles We have mentioned to you before and apostles we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed His Word, speaking (to him):
[4.165] (We sent) apostles as the givers of good news and as warners, so that people should not have a plea against Allah after the (coming of) apostles; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4.166] But Allah bears witness by what He has revealed to you that He has revealed it with His knowledge, and the angels bear witness (also); and Allah is sufficient as a witness.
[4.167] Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and hinder (men) from Allah's way, they indeed have strayed off into a remote
[4.168] Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and act unjustly Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to a path
[4.169] Except the path of hell, to abide in it for ever, and this is easy to Allah.
[4.170] O people! surely the Apostle has come to you with the truth from your Lord, therefore believe, (it shall be) good for you and If you disbelieve, then surely whatever is in the heavens and the earth is Allah's; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
Quote
5.99] Nothing is (incumbent) on the Apostle but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.
[5.100] Say: The bad and the good are not equal, though the abundance of the bad may please you; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah, O men of understanding, that you may be successful.
[5.101] O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
[5.102] A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them.
[5.103] Allah has not ordained (the making of) a bahirah or a saibah or a wasilah or a hami but those who disbelieve fabricate a lie against Allah, and most of them do not understand.
[5.104] And when it is said to them, Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Apostle, they say: That on which we found our fathers is sufficient for us. What! even though their fathers knew nothing and did not follow the right way.
Quote
6.4] And there does not come to them any communication of the communications of their Lord but they turn aside from it
[6.5] So they have indeed rejected the truth when it came to them; therefore the truth of what they mocked at will shine upon them.
[6.6] Do they not consider how many a generation We have destroyed before them, whom We had established in the earth as We have not established you, and We sent the clouds pouring rain on them in abundance, and We made the rivers to flow beneath them, then We destroyed them on account of their faults and raised up after them another generation.
[6.7] And if We had sent to you a writing on a paper, then they had touched it with their hands, certainly those who disbelieve would have said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.
[6.8] And they say: Why has not an angel been sent down to him? And had We sent down an angel, the matter would have certainly been decided and then they would not have been respited.
[6.9] And if We had made him angel, We would certainly have made him a man, and We would certainly have made confused to them what they make confused.
[6.10] And certainly apostles before you were mocked at, but that which they mocked at encompassed the scoffers among them.
[6.11] Say: Travel in the land, then see what was the end of the rejecters.
[6.12] Say: To whom belongs what is in the heavens and the earth? Say: To Allah; He has ordained mercy on Himself; most certainly He will gather you on the resurrection day-- there is no doubt about it. (As for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe.
[6.13] And to Him belongs whatever dwells in the night and the day; and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
[6.14] Say: Shall I take a guardian besides Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and He feeds (others) and is not (Himself) fed. Say: I am commanded to be the first who submits himself, and you should not be of the polytheists.
[6.15] Say: Surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the chastisement of a grievous day.
[6.16] He from whom it is averted on that day, Allah indeed has shown mercy to him; and this is a manifest achievement.
[6.17] And if Allah touch you with affliction, there is none to take it off but He; and if He visit you with good, then He has power over all things.
[6.18] And He is the Supreme, above His servants; and He is the Wise, the Aware.
[6.19] Say: What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say: Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say: I do not bear witness. Say: He is only one God, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).
[6.20] Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons; (as for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe.
[6.21] And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah or (he who) gives the lie to His communications; surely the unjust will not be successful.

I could go on, but I doubt the necessity and the profit in that.








 Any Koranic references to ‘The Book’ refers to the Holy Bible, brother.

After all, the Koran was oral during this time.
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2011, 05:53:45 PM »


"In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages."

Any 'violence' found in the Koran was copied from the Holy Bible.

The Holy Bible says nothing about Muhammad's maghazii and siyar (campaigns and raids).  that the biography of Muhammad was arranged around his campaigns should tell you something.


There is no 'violence' related anyone named 'Muhammad' in the Koran.

Quote
[47.1] (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.
[47.2] And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.
[47.3] That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

Quote
of Christian and Jewish minorities were largely mythical and he wondered about the possibility of theological development in Islam when the Koran was said to come directly from God.


The Koran never claims to be divinely inspired.
Have you ever read the Qur'an? Because such a statement would seem to indicate no.

Then show us an ayah...good luck...

Quote
[2.1] Alif Lam Mim.
[2.2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[2.3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
[2.4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter....
[2.185] The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
Quote
[3.1] Alif Lam Mim.
[3.2] Allah, (there is) no god but He, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all things subsist
[3.3] He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
[3.4] Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah they shall have a severe chastisement; and Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.
Quote
[4.82] Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
[4.162] But the firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to. you and what was revealed before you, and those who keep up prayers and those who give the poor-rate and the believers in Allah and the last day, these it is whom We will give a mighty reward.
[4.163] Surely We have revealed to you as We revealed to Nuh, and the prophets after him, and We revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and Isa and Ayub and Yunus and Haroun and Sulaiman and We gave to Dawood
[4.164] And (We sent) apostles We have mentioned to you before and apostles we have not mentioned to you; and to Musa, Allah addressed His Word, speaking (to him):
[4.165] (We sent) apostles as the givers of good news and as warners, so that people should not have a plea against Allah after the (coming of) apostles; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4.166] But Allah bears witness by what He has revealed to you that He has revealed it with His knowledge, and the angels bear witness (also); and Allah is sufficient as a witness.
[4.167] Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and hinder (men) from Allah's way, they indeed have strayed off into a remote
[4.168] Surely (as for) those who disbelieve and act unjustly Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to a path
[4.169] Except the path of hell, to abide in it for ever, and this is easy to Allah.
[4.170] O people! surely the Apostle has come to you with the truth from your Lord, therefore believe, (it shall be) good for you and If you disbelieve, then surely whatever is in the heavens and the earth is Allah's; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
Quote
5.99] Nothing is (incumbent) on the Apostle but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.
[5.100] Say: The bad and the good are not equal, though the abundance of the bad may please you; so be careful of (your duty to) Allah, O men of understanding, that you may be successful.
[5.101] O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
[5.102] A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them.
[5.103] Allah has not ordained (the making of) a bahirah or a saibah or a wasilah or a hami but those who disbelieve fabricate a lie against Allah, and most of them do not understand.
[5.104] And when it is said to them, Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Apostle, they say: That on which we found our fathers is sufficient for us. What! even though their fathers knew nothing and did not follow the right way.
Quote
6.4] And there does not come to them any communication of the communications of their Lord but they turn aside from it
[6.5] So they have indeed rejected the truth when it came to them; therefore the truth of what they mocked at will shine upon them.
[6.6] Do they not consider how many a generation We have destroyed before them, whom We had established in the earth as We have not established you, and We sent the clouds pouring rain on them in abundance, and We made the rivers to flow beneath them, then We destroyed them on account of their faults and raised up after them another generation.
[6.7] And if We had sent to you a writing on a paper, then they had touched it with their hands, certainly those who disbelieve would have said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.
[6.8] And they say: Why has not an angel been sent down to him? And had We sent down an angel, the matter would have certainly been decided and then they would not have been respited.
[6.9] And if We had made him angel, We would certainly have made him a man, and We would certainly have made confused to them what they make confused.
[6.10] And certainly apostles before you were mocked at, but that which they mocked at encompassed the scoffers among them.
[6.11] Say: Travel in the land, then see what was the end of the rejecters.
[6.12] Say: To whom belongs what is in the heavens and the earth? Say: To Allah; He has ordained mercy on Himself; most certainly He will gather you on the resurrection day-- there is no doubt about it. (As for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe.
[6.13] And to Him belongs whatever dwells in the night and the day; and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
[6.14] Say: Shall I take a guardian besides Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and He feeds (others) and is not (Himself) fed. Say: I am commanded to be the first who submits himself, and you should not be of the polytheists.
[6.15] Say: Surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the chastisement of a grievous day.
[6.16] He from whom it is averted on that day, Allah indeed has shown mercy to him; and this is a manifest achievement.
[6.17] And if Allah touch you with affliction, there is none to take it off but He; and if He visit you with good, then He has power over all things.
[6.18] And He is the Supreme, above His servants; and He is the Wise, the Aware.
[6.19] Say: What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say: Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say: I do not bear witness. Say: He is only one God, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).
[6.20] Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons; (as for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe.
[6.21] And who is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah or (he who) gives the lie to His communications; surely the unjust will not be successful.

I could go on, but I doubt the necessity and the profit in that.



 Any Koranic references to ‘The Book’ refers to the Holy Bible, brother.

Then how is the OT and NT revealed before it?
"He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime."

Quote
After all, the Koran was oral during this time.
LOL. And what time would that be?
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2011, 06:57:52 PM »

The Koran never claims to be divinely inspired.

Have you ever read the Qur'an? Because such a statement would seem to indicate no.

I'm not sure he's even made it to the opening words of Al-Baqarah (the 2nd Surah).  

Edit: My mistake, I did not see his signature.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2011, 11:20:39 PM »

 
 Then how is the OT and NT revealed before it?
"He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime."



'The Truth' is a Koranic reference to the Biblical Jesus Christ.



Quote
LOL. And what time would that be?


Before it was written down.
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2011, 11:59:21 PM »

 
 Then how is the OT and NT revealed before it?
"He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime."



'The Truth' is a Koranic reference to the Biblical Jesus Christ.
Even if it were, that doesn't answer the question.

LOL. And what time would that be?


Before it was written down.

I'll let you catch up
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2011, 02:03:42 AM »

Even if it were, that doesn't answer the question.

 

It is....and, it does.
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2011, 02:09:08 AM »

Even if it were, that doesn't answer the question.

 

It is....and, it does.
I'm sorry, were you under the impression that we care about Islam? It actually says in REALLY big letters at the top of this forum:
ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY!!!
Now why don't you get back to your own forum that also has no one interested.
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2011, 07:15:01 PM »

I'm sorry, were you under the impression that we care about Islam? 

And yet....you continue to slavishly reply... Roll Eyes
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