Author Topic: On Modesty of Women in Church  (Read 23661 times)

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Offline TomS

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2006, 02:32:53 PM »
I wonder how long this woman's skirt was...maybe that's why he was looking down ÂÂ ;) ÂÂ  :P

Well, if it was Greek Church, the question would be how low-cut the top was!  :D

Offline dantxny

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2006, 02:49:36 PM »
I'll assume you're being facetious.

Yes, my apologies.  It's good to make fun of ourselves at times.
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I think the French may be on to something here.

Offline serb1389

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2006, 02:58:30 PM »
Well, if it was Greek Church, the question would be how low-cut the top was!  :D

I would say its a 1-2 combo.  Top to bottomn, which is why he "eventually" saw the head scarf in the hand...i'm sure the hand was the last place he was looking  ;)

Wow has this gone far...
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Offline Tsarina

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2006, 05:03:00 PM »
The reason is that's what THIS PRIEST thinks is correct.

They're are some who come without headscarfs, the Priest doesn't tell them to wear one. But he told this particular one to put it on her head. She was holding it in her hand, it made more sense to wear it instead of holding it and running around.
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Offline Orual

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2006, 05:33:40 PM »
1) Why didn't she properly prepare and go to Confession earlier in the morning or a prior day instead of rushing the priest right before Liturgy?

She could have been running late that morning.  It happens.  Last Sunday I had to go on a ten minute quest for my housekeys, before realizing they were in my purse all along.   :)

Quote
2) If she had time to even grab the scarf, then she could have taken time to actually put it on - otherwise no sense in bothering.

I've been in a rush before leaving the house before, and just grabbed my scarf and ran out the door, and put it on in the ladies' room when I got there.

Quote
3) The priest didn't need to bother her about the scarf - let her decide on her piety herself, as piety is a personal thing.  But this goes back to 2) above as the scarf reminded him by it's presence and not being in proper place....

He might have just been telling her to put it on so she wouldn't forget.

Quote
4) What was the rush to be absolved and take Communion that day?  Did she just find out the day prior that she was going to die the next day or something?

Hey, "the bridegroom cometh in the middle of the night..."   :)
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Offline Timos

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2006, 05:51:00 PM »
Well, if it was Greek Church, the question would be how low-cut the top was!  :D

At my parish, EVERYONE looks for if a woman or girl is wearing a skirt versus pants. Until recently, I've almost been so used to hearing "omg women don't wear pants in church."

The funniest thing happened last year. A young lady who reads the epistle in english walked down the aisle in church wearing pants and the entire church (especially the old ppl) were gasping and hissing. The altarboy next to me got mad too -"how can she walk in here with pants, AND THEN proceed to read the Epistle".

ooo the deaded pants

Offline Tsarina

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2006, 08:36:01 PM »
She could have been running late that morning.  It happens.  Last Sunday I had to go on a ten minute quest for my housekeys, before realizing they were in my purse all along.   :)


LoL. I do that all the time with my sunglasses. In the end i always find them resting on top of my head.
At my parish, EVERYONE looks for if a woman or girl is wearing a skirt versus pants. Until recently, I've almost been so used to hearing "omg women don't wear pants in church."

The funniest thing happened last year. A young lady who reads the epistle in english walked down the aisle in church wearing pants and the entire church (especially the old ppl) were gasping and hissing. The altarboy next to me got mad too -"how can she walk in here with pants, AND THEN proceed to read the Epistle".

ooo the deaded pants

Perhaps the lady in the pants didn't realize what she was suppose to be wearing. It happens in many cases, we just need to be reminded somtimes.

On the other hand, the altarboy got mad? Aw, that's not nice. Perhaps he should pray for her.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 08:39:23 PM by Tsarina »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2006, 09:58:43 PM »
(quoting myself to help put my next post in context)
The article reeks to me of fundamentalism and judgmentalism.  The author is obviously very offended by what he sees as the immodesty of women in church, but could this be coming out of his own pharisaical self-righteousness?  His article seems to say this.

The author admits to being a young man.  Learning from my own experience, what a young man often believes is righteous indignation is really nothing more than his own anger and outrage.  Most young men I know--at 34 I'm not yet that far removed from being a young man--don't yet have great control of their passions, anger being a very common passion.  As such, I think a young man should work first on controlling his own anger through ascetic practice under the guidance of a spiritual father before speaking his outrage at various practices he sees in the Church.  Only after he has gained some mastery over his passion of anger will he actually be able to speak with the righteous indignation of a true spiritual authority.

I do, however, agree with much of the substance of his article--once I separate the substance from the article's angry, judgmental style.  I do believe that we enter the temple of the church to worship God and pray to Him, and that nothing should then distract our minds from the communal prayer of the Church.  This requires that women and men dress modestly so as to not distract other worshippers.  This is a big reason why my parish choir director doesn't allow choir members to wear sweatshirts with colorfully printed images and text while they are singing church services.

The rules that define this spirit of modesty, however, are a totally different issue that will vary from church to church largely out of pastoral concerns.  With rules, though, comes the all-too-common temptation to replace the spirit of the rules with their letter, forgetting what the rules are for.  Let's say we define modesty to require head coverings for women even outside of church.  Is a woman wearing a full-length dress with a long-sleeved blouse that covers her neck being immodest for no other reason than the lack of a head covering?  Or the converse, is a woman wearing a skimpy bikini at the swimming pool suddenly modest because she puts on a head scarf?  Separate from the spirit of the rules, our interpretation of these rules can become very out-of-whack.

Modesty is the spirit that we must cultivate.  Rules are only the means to this spirit and should never be interpreted legalistically as an unchanging end in and of themselves.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 09:59:41 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline serb1389

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2006, 12:09:49 AM »
I agree about the men thing.  How many guys wear Armani suits and Gucci shoes and belt combo to look flashy and rich?  Its the same principle.  

However, on an opposite note, i've seen GYPSIES wear nicer clothes to church than some of the people out there.  I'm sorry, if a GYPSIE can wear nice clothes to church, so can everyone else (speaking generally).  

The ensuing discussion about the Gypsies/Roma has been split off into its own topic.  You can find it here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8954.0
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 11:14:17 AM by cleveland »
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Offline StBrigid

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2006, 07:35:32 PM »
Modesty is the spirit that we must cultivate.
Thank you, true.  I agree with many of the points brought up in the article, but as many have said the tone of it did strike me as angry and strident rather than gentle, humble reproof.

Headcoverings are beautiful- I don't think it's vanity to think or say so.  We admire icons not only for their spiritual qualities, but for their beauty.  That said, I probably wouldn't wear a headcovering if I visited a parish that didn't use them.  Anything that distracts those who've come to worship, draws attention to yourself, is best avoided, no?  For the sake of our own prayers and love for others.

Offline Tsarina

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2006, 04:12:32 PM »
Thank you, true.  I agree with many of the points brought up in the article, but as many have said the tone of it did strike me as angry and strident rather than gentle, humble reproof.

Headcoverings are beautiful- I don't think it's vanity to think or say so.  We admire icons not only for their spiritual qualities, but for their beauty.  That said, I probably wouldn't wear a headcovering if I visited a parish that didn't use them.  Anything that distracts those who've come to worship, draws attention to yourself, is best avoided, no?  For the sake of our own prayers and love for others.

I agree, headcoverings are beautiful. Except those headcoverings that Muslim women are usually forced to wear (hijabs), now that's depressing because most of those women are forced to wear it.
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Offline suzannes

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2006, 04:26:39 PM »
I personally, would never *not* wear a scarf, skirt, and shirt with sleeves to church.  Which feels like the "right" thing.  However, so many crazy things have appeared online about modesty, that it's easy to sometimes disregard it.  One thing that bugs me is : "no Orthodox Christian woman EVER wears pants."  If you don't want to wear them, fine, but these sweeping statements can be annoying.  I've also read so many posts saying "a young woman came to church in jeans and I was SOOOOOOO OFFENDED!"  No, you shouldn't wear jeans to church, but all this judging of others can't be a good thing.

Offline annaspencer

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2006, 05:05:47 PM »
If I remember correctly, headcoverings were the norm for churchgoing women--not only for Orthodox but for many Christian women everywhere--until just a few decades ago.  I wonder why women stopped wearing them after so long.

Erm, did someone forget to tell my parish? Maybe it's different because it's a monastery so women are more respectful/aware I don't know, but generally all the women wear something to cover their head (usually a headscarf) and long skirts and also just generally dress and behave modesly, as do the men. This isn't something we should just allow to die out, in my opinion.

Offline Elisha

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2006, 05:06:58 PM »
I personally, would never *not* wear a scarf, skirt, and shirt with sleeves to church.  Which feels like the "right" thing.  However, so many crazy things have appeared online about modesty, that it's easy to sometimes disregard it.  One thing that bugs me is : "no Orthodox Christian woman EVER wears pants."  If you don't want to wear them, fine, but these sweeping statements can be annoying.  I've also read so many posts saying "a young woman came to church in jeans and I was SOOOOOOO OFFENDED!"  No, you shouldn't wear jeans to church, but all this judging of others can't be a good thing.

I think this (the pants thing) is the most ridiculous thing ever (I'm a male). ÂÂ What is more distracting (especially to the male) - a young beautiful woman with hair down (and uncovered), skirt flirtingly too short (e.g. a few inches above the knee) and sleevless form-fitting shirt or the same young woman with her hair up (but uncovered) and wearing a conservative pants-suit? ÂÂ While I think it is obvious to most that the first example is less proper, some of the zealots will incest that the second is in the wrong for "cross-dressing" due to the pants. ÂÂ  ::) Stupid.

Offline StBrigid

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2006, 05:51:00 PM »
I had no idea that women in most Orthodox churches are expected to wear skirts til this and other discussions here on OCnet.  I loathe the things except on very special occasions, so I'm counting my blessings not to be in a parish with such expectations.

Because of that, I'm no doubt biased, but headcovering to my mind is in a different category.  It is type and symbolism-there is some real theological weight there.  I can't fathom what rationale there is for "having" to wear a skirt.

Offline serb1389

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2006, 10:10:31 PM »
I think this (the pants thing) is the most ridiculous thing ever (I'm a male). ÂÂ What is more distracting (especially to the male) - a young beautiful woman with hair down (and uncovered), skirt flirtingly too short (e.g. a few inches above the knee) and sleevless form-fitting shirt or the same young woman with her hair up (but uncovered) and wearing a conservative pants-suit? ÂÂ While I think it is obvious to most that the first example is less proper, some of the zealots will incest that the second is in the wrong for "cross-dressing" due to the pants. ÂÂ  ::) Stupid.

Are we seriously going to be talking about combinations here?  Cuz if we are you'd better roll up your sleaves buddy.  I go to a seminary where GOYA trips come every weekend with a new batch of GOYA girls and their idea of "propriety"   ;) ;D

About skirts:

Actually i've never thought about why women HAVE to wear skirts.  I would guess cuz its considered more "modest" and does not show ALL the curves, and doesn't really accentuate legs....i'm guessing though..
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Offline Elisha

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2006, 10:19:02 PM »
Are we seriously going to be talking about combinations here?  Cuz if we are you'd better roll up your sleaves buddy.  I go to a seminary where GOYA trips come every weekend with a new batch of GOYA girls and their idea of "propriety"   ;) ;D

About skirts:

Actually i've never thought about why women HAVE to wear skirts.  I would guess cuz its considered more "modest" and does not show ALL the curves, and doesn't really accentuate legs....i'm guessing though..

Look back a couple of posts - I mentioned an example of at the ROCOR cathedral on Monday where some women did NOT have headcoverings, the sky did not fall and no one was scandalized (although there wasn't a whole lot of people around to be scandalized as it was after a weekday Vespers).  At a feastday vigil for this cathedral (St. John Maximovitch - Archbishop present), there were teenage girls with skirts above the knees, no headcovering and form fitting sleevless shirts...and they still got blessed by the Bishop and the world did not come crashing down.  BUT, (admittedly from hearsay), I heard some incident where some city councilwoman showed up in an expensive pants suit and someone tried to wrap a ratty skirt around her.  Lame.

Female conservative pants (e.g. in suits) are not form-fitting either (curve showing).  They are loose.  It is the "cross-dressing" accusation I hear.

Offline serb1389

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2006, 10:40:02 PM »
I've visited the cathedral with St. John in it, and every time my gf was asked by some old Russian guy who didn't speak english to put on a skirt.  In fact, she was walking around in the Narthex, cuz she was brought up right and didn't want to enter the church without a skirt, and this guy ran at a dead sprint towards her yelling about not having a skirt on.  

Thank God she doesn't speak Russian, but I did and I gave that guy a piece of my mind.  I don't care if he's the archbishop himself.  He's telling her to put on a skirt but he ran in church!   ;D

P.S.  i don't know that kind of suits you've seen but the ones I have are VERY...lets just say "nice"   ;)
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Offline Elisha

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2006, 11:09:06 PM »
I've visited the cathedral with St. John in it, and every time my gf was asked by some old Russian guy who didn't speak english to put on a skirt.  In fact, she was walking around in the Narthex, cuz she was brought up right and didn't want to enter the church without a skirt, and this guy ran at a dead sprint towards her yelling about not having a skirt on.  

Thank God she doesn't speak Russian, but I did and I gave that guy a piece of my mind.  I don't care if he's the archbishop himself.  He's telling her to put on a skirt but he ran in church!   ;D

P.S.  i don't know that kind of suits you've seen but the ones I have are VERY...lets just say "nice"   ;)


Oh I don't doubt it!  But the old Russian guy was not there that day.

Suits:  It's a suit, but also subject to the alterations and the shirt worn under it.  They are still "loose" in comparison to jeans are men's khakis.

Offline Timos

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2006, 11:24:35 PM »
I've visited the cathedral with St. John in it, and every time my gf was asked by some old Russian guy who didn't speak english to put on a skirt.  In fact, she was walking around in the Narthex, cuz she was brought up right and didn't want to enter the church without a skirt, and this guy ran at a dead sprint towards her yelling about not having a skirt on. ÂÂ

Thank God she doesn't speak Russian, but I did and I gave that guy a piece of my mind. ÂÂ I don't care if he's the archbishop himself. ÂÂ He's telling her to put on a skirt but he ran in church! ÂÂ  ;D

P.S. ÂÂ i don't know that kind of suits you've seen but the ones I have are VERY...lets just say "nice" ÂÂ  ;)

I too went to that beautiful cathedral and some nice lady with her husband and children came in the door and the same old russian man came freaking out from behind the counter and wad yelling his heado ff at her on how can she wear pants in church. There are a million ways he could've said it niclier or maybe even as a gentle reminder for next time she shows up not a "strip n dress or else" attitude. btw, at that church 2 summers ago when I was there, there were like 5 services happening all at once. A confession in one corner, a memorial for the dead in another, saturday vespers at the altar, and another service somewhere else. Is this typical for russian churches or just because its a cathedral?

Offline Tsarina

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2006, 11:31:29 PM »
I personally, would never *not* wear a scarf, skirt, and shirt with sleeves to church.  Which feels like the "right" thing.  However, so many crazy things have appeared online about modesty, that it's easy to sometimes disregard it.  One thing that bugs me is : "no Orthodox Christian woman EVER wears pants."  If you don't want to wear them, fine, but these sweeping statements can be annoying.  I've also read so many posts saying "a young woman came to church in jeans and I was SOOOOOOO OFFENDED!"  No, you shouldn't wear jeans to church, but all this judging of others can't be a good thing.

I agree that the whole judging others as to what they are wearing in Church may not be so great. However, if someone chooses not to wear a skirt or headscraf, they are not forced to wear it.

Anyway if the scarf, skirt thing feels like the "right" thing to do, then why not go for somthing you think may be right?

Furthermore, many people here are mentioned that "others" in Church have been freaking out if someone doesn't wear a skirt to Church.  I don't know why they freak out, it's not the end of the world. Yes, it's nice to be modest and us Orthodox Christians should try to be more modest, but i don't think it's so cool to 'freak' out on those women who dress in jeans to Church. What happend to praying for one another?
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Offline Elisha

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2006, 12:31:06 AM »
I too went to that beautiful cathedral and some nice lady with her husband and children came in the door and the same old russian man came freaking out from behind the counter and wad yelling his heado ff at her on how can she wear pants in church. There are a million ways he could've said it niclier or maybe even as a gentle reminder for next time she shows up not a "strip n dress or else" attitude. btw, at that church 2 summers ago when I was there, there were like 5 services happening all at once. A confession in one corner, a memorial for the dead in another, saturday vespers at the altar, and another service somewhere else. Is this typical for russian churches or just because its a cathedral?

Maybe it is just this one old Russian man who is the problem....his own problem then to deal with.

My choir director (OCA parish) who has travelled a lot says that concurrent services in a big church are not unusual.  I think he said he's even seen a Wedding and Funeral going on at the same time.

Offline Kizzy

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2006, 12:35:25 AM »
As a child in America during the 50's and 60's, we always wore hats to church.. Easter bonnets, or winter hats..Both Orthodox and RC churches had this practice.. maybe others.. in general a woman always wore a hat and white gloves when dressed up in public. According to my mom, it was the 'teased' hairstyle of the 60's that did away with them..Jackie Kennedy was the last first lady to really have been pictured regularly wearing a hat as part of 'dressup' wear.  Recently I visited a little monastery on Santorini.. and we had been on the beach in shorts.. so we covered up our legs with big towels to enter the church.. hubby too by the way!!.. but I was not asked to cover my head..
There are several things to consider here..
-first, in general dressing modestly is always a guideline.. church or not.. this style where guys have their pants halfway down their butt is one counter example..skirts so short the panties show, I'dtake pants over that,   ÃƒÆ’‚ Body piercing, tattoing, etc.. i.e. mutilation.. another counter example.. my son was the only one of his peers who knew how to put on a tie because of our church practice.. so, in general, it is not just church dress, but general dress that must be considered.
- second.. while in general I agree that proper dress and behavior should go hand in hand... I have learned some frightening truths..consider our local  RC parochial high school that espouses modesty, chastity, Christian values, prayer, etc.. It is a top notch Blue ribbon awarded school...Orthodox in the area use it.. we do too..all the kids wear uniforms and the parents pay to send the kids to this environment... I was shocked to learn that these same parents hold parties serving alcohol to minors and rent hotel rooms for post prom partying at the beach... a senior class pre prom meetingof kids and parents- with the Sisters telling the parents this is wrong,illegal, unsafe,  not to do it.. etc.. -this went on deaf ears.. and, I've learned from my son that most girls have been 'dishing out sex' since sixth grade...girls who I thought were 'modest', polite, Orthodox or not...
So, the priest who said 'head coverings was the least of his worries' was right... There are much bigger issues at stake and Mr. Williams while comparing head coverings to statements of the Holy Fathers is talking about 'how to win a battle.. when the war is already lost'. he is missing the big picture... The question is not why aren't women more modest in church.. the question is how did the church lose it's flock? And how can it get it back?

IMHO, the answer is in the fact that for years  the church & it's services- many in 'foreign language ' just  did not connect with the youth, offer solace for victims of domestic abuse, counseling for troubled youth, etc.  these  were left to govern't institutions and non-profits... so, people found their help elsewhere.  Women left destitute by irresponsible husbands learned they needed to take care of themselves...got educated, went to work, and you will not convince them that a man is their head... Only recently have priests been given guidance on marriage counseling.. and some are awful at it...get them away from the altar chanting the DL and they are all thumbs...Let's also remember that until 20+ years ago, it was believed that women's brains were inferior in physiology to those of men...and therefore they had to be 'headed' by a man in order to survive...some of the older teachings are based on this.

Mr. Williams article, while I understand his intent,  is chillingly frightening in it's complete lack of understanding of the true challenges for the church and society as a whole.  If in fact he is a teen or young adult... then that would explain this as simple naivete... Ask yourself -if you learned that your teen was doing something wrong.. drinking, drug, sex, you name it,  would your priest and parish be able to assist you? My bet you would be shown a list of gov't. social services to help you...& they will  show the kids the condoms and tell the parents to cool it...or give the pregnant girl an abortion reference...

In my opinion, a truly smart priest will not turn people away because of lack of head scarves... but will keep them coming back to church more and more with homilies that inspire, excite, and teach...if the people are not in church, he can't influence them.. so take them with their 'imperfections' and work to help them..

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2006, 02:02:08 AM »
I think he said he's even seen a Wedding and Funeral going on at the same time.
Throw in an infant baptism, and you get what my priest once called, "hatch, match, and dispatch."  :o :D  (Kinda crass, but I couldn't resist.  ;D)
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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2006, 02:06:31 AM »
Throw in an infant baptism, and you get what my priest once called, "hatch, match, and dispatch."  :o :D  (Kinda crass, but I couldn't resist.  ;D)

Don't blame you...funny.

Offline Sleepyhead

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2006, 05:37:15 AM »
StBrigid wrote: "Because of that, I'm no doubt biased, but headcovering to my mind is in a different category.  It is type and symbolism-there is some real theological weight there.  I can't fathom what rationale there is for "having" to wear a skirt."

I think it is the old curve-issue. I don't quite get it either. What about those women who have rather, eh, big curves?

I am rather ambivalent in this matter. I understand the symbolism behind the head covering, and it does have some real theological weight. However, being a mere 'hang-around', I haven't donned one yet. It might sound strange, but there are so many other things I have to deal with. I have heard so much about the infamous 'convert zeal', and it is easy to get caught up in external things (I'm not trying to trash the hang-arounds or catechumens who do wear head coverings, I am only talking about myself here). For all our talk of modesty, we tend to forget that it sometimes means different things to different people; hardly any of the women in 'my' congregation wear headscarves, and they seem like rather pious people. When I asked the priest about the whole head-covering thing, he told me that I was welcome to wear a headscarf if I wanted to, but I did not have to.

What serb1389 wrote about St John's cathedral sounds very strange. I am not quite sure how I would react in such a situation.

Offline choirfiend

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2006, 08:21:56 AM »
Elisha,

Gotta love the comments about cross dressing, undoubtably from the passage that tells women not to dress like men nor men to dress like women...Do these people never think about the fact that at the time this was written, EVERYONE wore skirts?
So it's not a skirt vs. pants issue.
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Offline serb1389

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #73 on: May 05, 2006, 09:12:33 AM »
Maybe it is just this one old Russian man who is the problem....his own problem then to deal with.

My choir director (OCA parish) who has travelled a lot says that concurrent services in a big church are not unusual.  I think he said he's even seen a Wedding and Funeral going on at the same time.

Honestly, I have a sneaking suspision that its the same guy....one day we can go and find out and rid the world of such peopl!!!!!  wait...the crusades are over... ;)  :P

And i've seen in churches of "russian" descent a lot of mixed services.  Every time i've ever been to St. Tikhon's Seminary, there have always been other things going on during liturgy...

I think that its personally destracting, and maybe a little taxing on the HS  ;) ;D
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Offline aurelia

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2006, 12:13:01 PM »
I guess I'll put in my 2 cents.  
One there is a big difference between a mini skirt that is painted on and a normal, even pencil cut, skirt that brushes the knees or thereabouts.  
Two,  I am one of those women with big curves, you could put me in a muumuu and know they are there. So it wouldn't matter if I were wearing a skirt (which is what i wear in church) or pants.  if a guy is that distracted, then he isnt giving his full attention to church matters, is he?

a side note, i gained some poundage over the winter, and the curves got bigger.  i have to wear what I have, which isnt much, but I do throw on a hideous big sweater over the top of the more , shall we say, bosomy dress, if I happen to wear it.  Summer is coming now though, so I don't know what i am going to do.

I dont wear a headcovering, it isnt expected.  

Offline suzannes

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2006, 12:35:15 PM »
Honestly, the only women who show up at church in pants are Russian, except for occasional college student whose probably taking a Russian History class!  I think the difference if; these visitors are not regular church-goers.  I can't really comment on whether pants are appropriate or not for church, because they simply aren't worn where I go, other than the exceptions I mentioned.  No doubt though, modesty is way subjective!  I see all the hooker-wannabe teenagers and can't believe how they dress, oth, I've read converts saying "don't wear a v-neckline, it calls attention to your chest", "don't let your cross show, keep it tucked in", "don't let your hair show, keep it all under your scarf."  I think a big part of the issue is people just have no idea what is appropriate anymore.  None.  Last summer, there was a funeral for a soldier killed in Iraq, and the front page of the local paper showed his casket, with a girl in a black strapless "cocktail" dress standing next to it!  This poor girl just didn't know better.  And tv doesn't help!   (I also notice that some Russian women put on their scarves when they go up for Communion.  Anyone who has been to Russia know is all women cover their heads when they enter the church?)  Btw, I had a friend who went to a service on Crete, who said there were old men in the back of the church smoking...but that's another thread :)

Offline calligraphqueen

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2006, 12:50:45 PM »
Isn't modesty supposed to come from the person's heart anyway?  No girls are taught modesty anymore, looking for clothes on the rack of any store is fruaght with horror for us moms. ( I have a teen dd and she hates current style and wears frumpy ugly baggy clothes instead)  If it's not taught as part of a child's formative education, how are they going to employ it later?  It's like the forgotten part of one's christian upbringing these days, because it's just old fashioned.

I wear whatever I can get my hands on, but I dont' think i have worn pants to church so far.  I spend all what monies we have on my kids clothes, and have trouble finding my little girls modest dresses.  skirts for little girls are next to impossible to find, and when you do they are shorter than shorts.  I just do the best I can, even if my cross does show.  I trust God knows my heart in the matter.  and He knows how aggravated I get when males police the issue.  Seems like men are so bent on making sure the women are doing everything just so, and then they go home and look at porn on the internet.... ::)

Offline Elisha

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2006, 01:27:20 PM »
Elisha,

Gotta love the comments about cross dressing, undoubtably from the passage that tells women not to dress like men nor men to dress like women...Do these people never think about the fact that at the time this was written, EVERYONE wore skirts?
So it's not a skirt vs. pants issue.

Probably either some double standard or not realizing the anachronism.  I know I'd tell off the guy if I saw him and he did it to someone I know.

Offline Timos

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2006, 01:56:59 PM »
I dont wear a headcovering, it isnt expected. ÂÂ

Yeah, not in your average greek parish. But whenever u go to the monastiria, oo thats different. Most of them want the women to dress n scarf up. The one near me "St. Patro Kosmas" is less strict since its so far away from the Vatican-I mean Arizona :) As long as you're wearing a dress, ur cool. Most women still wear veils there tho, but not all. The scary part is when married women start dressing exactly like the nuns 24/7- that freaks me out.

Offline Tsarina

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #79 on: May 05, 2006, 02:31:50 PM »
Kizzy, very interesting point there.

I like that question that you have brought up, i think it's somthing we should all ask ourselves.

Isn't modesty supposed to come from the person's heart anyway?  No girls are taught modesty anymore, looking for clothes on the rack of any store is fruaght with horror for us moms. ( I have a teen dd and she hates current style and wears frumpy ugly baggy clothes instead)  If it's not taught as part of a child's formative education, how are they going to employ it later?  It's like the forgotten part of one's christian upbringing these days, because it's just old fashioned.

I wear whatever I can get my hands on, but I dont' think i have worn pants to church so far.  I spend all what monies we have on my kids clothes, and have trouble finding my little girls modest dresses.  skirts for little girls are next to impossible to find, and when you do they are shorter than shorts.  I just do the best I can, even if my cross does show.  I trust God knows my heart in the matter.  and He knows how aggravated I get when males police the issue.  Seems like men are so bent on making sure the women are doing everything just so, and then they go home and look at porn on the internet.... ::)

You're right, skirts for little girls are almost impissible to find, and when you do find the skirts for these little girls, they're waaay tooo short! That's why most mothers at my Parish go get skirts tailor made for their little ones.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 02:34:10 PM by Tsarina »
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Offline suzannes

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2006, 04:05:35 PM »
I HOPE this isn't againt the rules, but I'm at work, and don't have time to look!

http://store.nordstrom.com/product/product.asp?styleid=2888701&category=2379292~2379293~2384338~2384344&PrevStyleID=2893495&NextStyleID=2888995

This is for skirt-searching moms.

Offline Ebor

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2006, 05:38:29 PM »
Whenever this topic comes up, I wonder what is it that some people think is "intrinsically masculine" about pants that women wearing them are "cross-dressing" or "in men's clothing" or "immodest"?  There are reasons behind clothing like "What is the person wearing it doing?"  "What are the materials available?"  "What technology is available for making clothing?" "What is the climate or conditions of the place the clothing is being worn?"  "Is there any ritual meaning or does a garment just have practical use?"  The History of clothing is part of learning about other cultures.

How can a woman from Pakistan or India or Bangladesh be "acting male" while wearing a kameez and the trousers that go with it?  What about a Japanese farm woman in "mompe"?  Is she "cross-dressing"?  No, that is a practical garment for the hard work she has to do and particular in working in places like rice paddies. The Kimono for men and women are cut the same.  It is the colours and decorations that make one for male or female wear, and even then there are some that serve both.  Do Inuit women wear skirts in the Arctic? No, Leggings/trousers keep everyone from freezing.

Judging someone's dress by only one standard might have some pitfalls.

Ebor

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Offline GiC

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2006, 05:40:29 PM »
Whenever this topic comes up, I wonder what is it that some people think is "intrinsically masculine" about pants that women wearing them are "cross-dressing" or "in men's clothing" or "immodest"?  There are reasons behind clothing like "What is the person wearing it doing?"  "What are the materials available?"  "What technology is available for making clothing?" "What is the climate or conditions of the place the clothing is being worn?"  "Is there any ritual meaning or does a garment just have practical use?"  The History of clothing is part of learning about other cultures.

How can a woman from Pakistan or India or Bangladesh be "acting male" while wearing a kameez and the trousers that go with it?  What about a Japanese farm woman in "mompe"?  Is she "cross-dressing"?  No, that is a practical garment for the hard work she has to do and particular in working in places like rice paddies. The Kimono for men and women are cut the same.  It is the colours and decorations that make one for male or female wear, and even then there are some that serve both.  Do Inuit women wear skirts in the Arctic? No, Leggings/trousers keep everyone from freezing.

Judging someone's dress by only one standard might have some pitfalls.

Thank you Ebor, while the absurdities inherent in these clothing discussions are ones I have pointed out in the past, I just didn't feel like bothering this time ;)
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Offline Ebor

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2006, 05:42:51 PM »
Gad!! Another point of agreement between us!  
<Get me my digitalis!>  
 ;D :D ;D

Have you had a chance to read some of the saga references to the Varangian Guard?

Ebor
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Offline Ebor

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2006, 05:44:02 PM »
Thank you Ebor, while the absurdities inherent in these clothing discussions are ones I have pointed out in the past, I just didn't feel like bothering this time ;)

Well, we could go back to saying "Bowl of Petunias" when something like this pops up again.
 ;)

Ebor
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2006, 05:50:45 PM »
Gad!! Another point of agreement between us!  
<Get me my digitalis!>  
 ;D :D ;D
Man, it's like GiC and me agreeing on anything.  ;)
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Offline Tsarina

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2006, 09:55:45 PM »
I HOPE this isn't againt the rules, but I'm at work, and don't have time to look!

http://store.nordstrom.com/product/product.asp?styleid=2888701&category=2379292~2379293~2384338~2384344&PrevStyleID=2893495&NextStyleID=2888995

This is for skirt-searching moms.

That's a really pretty skirt for kids.  ;D

I once had a conversation about "skirts" with a girl, she mentioned that wearing skirts made one look like an Amish. I had to disagree! Many think that by wearing long skirts, you don't look stylish and just end up looking like you're a potato peeling women who works out in the fields all day.
I don't believe that's the case. I'm always wearing skirts, and i find them pretty looking. Here's an example of how I dress and how many women in my Church dress:





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Offline calligraphqueen

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2006, 11:20:18 PM »
The only thing absurd about these clothing discussions is that there will always be uptight men policing what women are wearing and what they are to wear-and making into a theology all it's own.  So women learn to deal with it.  The hard part is when fashion dictates that lengths are so short you can see a woman's navel-oops word picture there *be alert*  or when skirts are hardly even made anymore unless they are the business suit skirts that look  freaky in church.  And they arent' long either.  And I will tell you this.  I worked in  the children's departments at many churches over the years.  The men that work in there can use the opportunity to look at little girls in their shorts and skorts, which are always wayy too short!  I ran off one pedophile, and come to find out he was kicked out of 3 other churches.  So, modesty for our little girls isn't really a bad thing when you think about it.
As far as the Brittany skirt, bad example.  The western one, well that's another story.

Offline Tsarina

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2006, 11:37:33 PM »
The only thing absurd about these clothing discussions is that there will always be uptight men policing what women are wearing and what they are to wear-and making into a theology all it's own.  So women learn to deal with it.  The hard part is when fashion dictates that lengths are so short you can see a woman's navel-oops word picture there *be alert*  or when skirts are hardly even made anymore unless they are the business suit skirts that look  freaky in church.  And they arent' long either.  And I will tell you this.  I worked in  the children's departments at many churches over the years.  The men that work in there can use the opportunity to look at little girls in their shorts and skorts, which are always wayy too short!  I ran off one pedophile, and come to find out he was kicked out of 3 other churches.  So, modesty for our little girls isn't really a bad thing when you think about it.
As far as the Brittany skirt, bad example.  The western one, well that's another story.

I'm glad you ran off one pedophile, the amazing part about that was that you didn't chop his head off.

A lot of parents think that dressing your little girls in short skirts is okay, because who's going to look at them, they're just little, right? WRONG! I've seen so many older men checking out 5 year olds with mini skirts on, even teenaged males! I also see these 10 year old girls walk around with tiny skirts too, and somtimes they look like they're 12 or 13. Many little girls have been abducted by these creaps.

I agree with you,calligraphqueen. Modesty for our little girls isn't a really bad thing when you think about it.

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Offline suzannes

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #89 on: May 06, 2006, 12:13:37 AM »
There was a "modest clothing" site for little girls called "daddy's little princess," and I'm sorry, that just creeps me out!

OK, this is the last link I post! (HONEST!) But this one is SO weird
http://plainlydressed.bravepages.com/index.html  
1.) I thought Amish women made their own clothes
2.) Actually, I think these peopel are Seventh Day Adventists.
3.) Check out why celebrating Easter means "collaboration with the Beast" or some crazy stuff.

This is the side of the "modesty question" that I can't stand.