Author Topic: On Modesty of Women in Church  (Read 24027 times)

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Offline Bizzlebin

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #225 on: May 19, 2006, 07:55:00 PM »
How do you know that it is a real *law* and not just some people deciding that their righteousness or opinions allow them to accost women? 

This was about more then just S.A. and their 'muttawa' (who from the things I've read tend to not require any "law" to accost people there).  Other countries were mentioned.  And in the absence of any data or evidence that there is a legal code that allows people to beat others in the streets for something like 'chewing gum' such behaviour is mob violence, imho.\

Ebor

What is a law but a person's opinion anyways?

Is all law written on stone tablets? Anyways, do you think OT law wasn't communally involved? Stoning people was a social event of sorts. Most people here support the people ruling (democracy), they just haven't taken the logical conclusion and supported all people carrying out that law (mob violence). So, if you believe there is an inconsistency here, then it is with democracy, not with a specific law. It's a political issue.
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #226 on: May 19, 2006, 08:06:44 PM »
Quote
Most people here support the people ruling (democracy), they just haven't taken the logical conclusion and supported all people carrying out that law (mob violence).

Mob rule is not an extension of Democracy (or the American style of republican government).  In our system it is the rule of law that is highest, so even if the elected officials pass a law, it can be struck down by the courts. 

Offline Bizzlebin

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #227 on: May 19, 2006, 08:18:01 PM »
[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8923.msg121501#msg121501 date=1148083604]
Mob rule is not an extension of Democracy (or the American style of republican government).  In our system it is the rule of law that is highest, so even if the elected officials pass a law, it can be struck down by the courts. 
[/quote]

Granted, it is less pronounced in Republican styles. However, the law is created by the people, and the courts are populated by the people. So, people are still the highest form of rule.

The inconsistency itself results in the fact that people vote for their leaders, but not as widely on the punishment of criminals. Sure, there are juries in some cases, but nothing like an election. Ultimately, this exists for one of two reasons:

True rule of the people (democracy) is mob rule, and the governments know this

or

Governments do not realize this is a democratic inconsistency (which is highly unlikely, seeing as people speak against these actions)

Neither conclusion is exactly favorable for governments where this farce is present.
Fashions and opinions among men may change, but the Orthodox tradition remains ever the same, no matter how few may follow it.

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Offline Ebor

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #228 on: May 19, 2006, 08:46:29 PM »
What is a law but a person's opinion anyways?

*A* person's opinion?  Laws, as in a legal code, are usually made by a group. How that group comes to get the power to make the laws is a different question.

Is a "criminal" anyone who another person or a group takes a dislike to?  And is a "law" only to apply to others and not the person(s) who have taken this dislike?  That is not then, the rule of "the People" but of *some* people.  Who has the Power?  Why are they exercising it?  I belive in the existance of Sin, so I don't think that a mob beating one woman is doing it from high minded or courageous reasons.

And what of things like "bearing false witness" because you don't like another person?  Is it justified if one group does it, but not if another tries?

Sorry, your declaration of a woman chewing gum (or percieved as chewing gum, she might not be) as being a "criminal" and thus fair game is repellant.  Would you like to be on the recieving end and accept that it was OK because the mob decided that *you* were a "criminal"?  In Pakistan, Christians have been abused, arrested or jailed just for their religion.  Would you accept that treatment for yourself?

Faulty though they may be, there are laws that are supposed to protect us from the depredations of others.  I prefer.  Also, there is no "People" as a single unit or coherant group.  There are different groups that are driven or guided or lead by someone or some smaller group for whatever purpose.

What lead to your statement about it being acceptable to beat women for possibly chewing gum, please?  What was your train of thought?  Thank you.

Ebor


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Offline Ebor

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #229 on: May 19, 2006, 08:50:57 PM »
Another thought:  What is the difference between "Law" and "Custom"?  Or Law and someone's personal belief?  There is a legal code in Pakistan and others countries.  Why should a few people's personal animosity to another person trump the written national or local law?  Particularly when such would harm another human being?  Is this Bullies Rule?

Ebor
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Offline Bizzlebin

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #230 on: May 19, 2006, 09:08:48 PM »
*A* person's opinion?  Laws, as in a legal code, are usually made by a group. How that group comes to get the power to make the laws is a different question.

Is a "criminal" anyone who another person or a group takes a dislike to?

And is a "law" only to apply to others and not the person(s) who have taken this dislike?

That is not then, the rule of "the People" but of *some* people.  Who has the Power?  Why are they exercising it?  I belive in the existance of Sin, so I don't think that a mob beating one woman is doing it from high minded or courageous reasons.

And what of things like "bearing false witness" because you don't like another person?  Is it justified if one group does it, but not if another tries?

Sorry, your declaration of a woman chewing gum (or percieved as chewing gum, she might not be) as being a "criminal" and thus fair game is repellant.  Would you like to be on the recieving end and accept that it was OK because the mob decided that *you* were a "criminal"?

In Pakistan, Christians have been abused, arrested or jailed just for their religion.  Would you accept that treatment for yourself?

What lead to your statement about it being acceptable to beat women for possibly chewing gum, please?  What was your train of thought?  Thank you.

Ebor

One person is responsible, in the end, for each law. There is no getting around it. It's the logical end of the Law of Oligarchy.

Yes, that is exactly what a criminal is. One can be a criminal in one country but not another, that's how the world works.

Sometimes this is the case, yes. I am not condoning it, but it's their government.

Who ever said the law must reflect what is and isn't sin? It is often the case that the law of men is at odds with the law of God. It doesn't make it right, but what country doesn't do this? It's a fact of life.

I don't think I commented on bearing false witness.

If I violate a low of a country, it is that country's job to prosecte me. And what does it matter whether I'd like it or not? What criminal likes to be punished?

Of course, that's a central feature of Christianity: persecution.

It's the law of the country, that is why. Why do people have an opinion of drug use? It's not because there is always a definitive answer, (in fact, we eat more toxic chemicals in our food than many drug users (and what is a "drug"?) consume in a week) but because they reflect the society in which they live. You believe chewing gum is right because your society tells you so, not because there is a Orthodox position either way.
Fashions and opinions among men may change, but the Orthodox tradition remains ever the same, no matter how few may follow it.

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Offline Bizzlebin

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #231 on: May 19, 2006, 09:12:31 PM »
Another thought:  What is the difference between "Law" and "Custom"?  Or Law and someone's personal belief?  There is a legal code in Pakistan and others countries.  Why should a few people's personal animosity to another person trump the written national or local law?  Particularly when such would harm another human being?  Is this Bullies Rule?

Ebor

"The law is what the man with the large stick says it is"

This holds true for every country, and every legal code. That is just the way things work in the world. Likewise, every country has it's animosities. For example, why do non-Christian countires outlaw murder? If they didn't get it from God, then it is a personal animosity. Granted, one that is nearly universal, but still an animosity. Do you see what I am saying now? We are so wrapped up in society's, and our own, biases we can hardly think without them. They are not always wrong, no, but we need to be able to recognize them.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2006, 09:48:27 PM by Bizzlebin »
Fashions and opinions among men may change, but the Orthodox tradition remains ever the same, no matter how few may follow it.

-- Fr. Seraphim Rose

Offline Ebor

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #232 on: May 23, 2006, 10:55:33 AM »
"The law is what the man with the large stick says it is"

Then how would laws be changed to treat others who are not the 'man with the stick' better?  and reducing law to a kind of owned by a bully seems primative.

Quote
This holds true for every country, and every legal code. That is just the way things work in the world. Likewise, every country has it's animosities. For example, why do non-Christian countires outlaw murder? If they didn't get it from God, then it is a personal animosity. Granted, one that is nearly universal, but still an animosity. Do you see what I am saying now? We are so wrapped up in society's, and our own, biases we can hardly think without them. They are not always wrong, no, but we need to be able to recognize them.

How is a mob attacking others with feelings of privilege and self righteousness a "legal code"? 

You say that the "law" of the lands mentioned make a woman chewing gum a 'criminal'.  Mob rule or a group seeing someone doing something they don't like is not a "legal Code".  What of a case where the real legal code of a country says that assaulting people of either sex on the street and beating them is illegal and says nothing about women chewing gum.  The mob is the criminal element here. 

I also disagree with your assertion about laws based on animosity.  Have you ever read "The Abolition of Man" by C. S. Lewis?  One of the things he addresses is the idea that there is a common thread of acceptable behaviour that runs though humanity.  He uses the word "Tao" for it as in the "Way" to live and behave.  He is not following Lao Tse, fyi.  In the back of the book is a selection of passages from many cultures showing that certain behaviours and ways of treating other people are part of them whether they are Christian or not.

You seemt to think that I am not considering other countries customs or trying to apply my own.  This is not the case.  I am quite aware of different countries do things differently.  But the question was one of 'is one person or group holding the opinion that another is a 'criminal' outside of any legal code, I think.

Ebor
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Offline serb1389

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #233 on: May 24, 2006, 08:52:51 PM »
Are we seriously arguing the semantics of the word "law"??  Bill Clinton anyone??   ;) :P
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Offline Tsarina

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #234 on: May 25, 2006, 01:20:56 PM »
Are we seriously arguing the semantics of the word "law"??  Bill Clinton anyone??   ;) :P

I think this all started after the mentioning of women getting beaten up in some countries for chewing gum in public.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #235 on: June 01, 2006, 10:34:17 AM »
Are we seriously arguing the semantics of the word "law"??  Bill Clinton anyone??  ÃƒÆ’‚ ;) :P

No, I think it was "Law" as in the legal code of a country/area as opposed to whatever a group of people or an individual wants to do (such as assault someone for doing something that is not against the Law of the Land).

Ebor
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Offline serb1389

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Re: On Modesty of Women in Church
« Reply #236 on: June 02, 2006, 05:38:41 PM »
You're gona have to go more indepth my friend.  I didn't understand AT ALL what you were trying to say.  Sorry... :)
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