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Author Topic: On Modesty of Women in Church  (Read 21576 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: April 30, 2006, 04:57:02 PM »

Here's an interesting article that i found. However, let me also add that modesty for men counts too!  Tongue

http://www.orthodox.net/cotc/modesty.html
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2006, 05:38:16 PM »

I like that article very much!
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2006, 05:39:37 PM »

I think he brings up some good points. At the same time he seems a little judgemental of others. However, that may be necessary when writing an article about such an issue. Anyway, we need to do get one out there about men too. Can't anybody grow a beard? Wink
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2006, 06:00:40 PM »

Can't anybody grow a beard? Wink

Hehe, I have a full beard and I just turned 18 Tongue
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2006, 06:03:29 PM »

Hehe, I have a full beard and I just turned 18 Tongue

I tip my hat to you sir. Wink
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2006, 07:24:09 PM »

His viewpoint seemed naive and traditionalist at the same time.  This is a very dangerous viewpoint to have.  

If you can teach people the ascetic and spiritual nourishment one can have through dressing correctly GREAT, if not then telling them about verses from the Bible are going to turn them away.  As sad as that is to say, its too often the truth.  

We also have a theology of oikonomia, does this Nathan Williams know about it?  Can he explain it?  I would bet not, but he CAN tell us what to do in a traditionalist sense!   Roll Eyes

First explain to me the exact opposite of your argument and then i'll listen to your argument.  
(I don't mean this literally, i'll listen to anyone, but you can't just sit on one side of the fence and stay there and tell me you're more right than I am just cuz of what side you're on)  
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2006, 11:15:53 PM »

I think he brings up some good points. At the same time he seems a little judgemental of others. However, that may be necessary when writing an article about such an issue. Anyway, we need to do get one out there about men too. Can't anybody grow a beard? Wink

A lot of men are starting to grow out beards, and some really want a beard but cant grow one properly. I find that beards on men look beautiful!

As my hubby would say: Did they shave in 12th century Russia!?

Hehe, I have a full beard and I just turned 18 Tongue

Wow, i know some guys who would die for that! They're couple of guys in Church, who are around 20 years old. They can only grow stringy beards that come out half way and only in certain areas of their face, it depresses them a lot.

His viewpoint seemed naive and traditionalist at the same time.  This is a very dangerous viewpoint to have.  

If you can teach people the ascetic and spiritual nourishment one can have through dressing correctly GREAT, if not then telling them about verses from the Bible are going to turn them away.  As sad as that is to say, its too often the truth.  

We also have a theology of oikonomia, does this Nathan Williams know about it?  Can he explain it?  I would bet not, but he CAN tell us what to do in a traditionalist sense!   Roll Eyes

First explain to me the exact opposite of your argument and then i'll listen to your argument.  
(I don't mean this literally, i'll listen to anyone, but you can't just sit on one side of the fence and stay there and tell me you're more right than I am just cuz of what side you're on)  

I have one question before anything else: Why did you think his view point was naive and traditionalist at the same time?

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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2006, 11:33:07 PM »

I must have been destined to be Orthodox.  I grew my first beard in my second trimester.
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2006, 11:42:53 PM »

Quote
His viewpoint seemed naive and traditionalist at the same time.  This is a very dangerous viewpoint to have.  

Huh. It reminded me of various Scriptural passages, like "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array" (1 Tim. 2:9) or "Your [women's] beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight." (1 Pet. 3:3-4)  Grin
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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2006, 09:45:42 AM »

I don't think his viewpoint is naive; I do not agree, but I can see what he is getting at. However, I did find some of his comments worrying. The things he wrote about a woman bringing shame over herself and her future husband is something I might have expected to hear from a follower of Islam, not Christianity.

I agree that coming to church dressed in a really tight, short skirt isn't a very good idea, but not because it would "bring shame" over the person wearing it. It might be thoughtless and even immature, but I don't understand why he has to talk about shame. Serb1389 pretty much summed it all up:quoting Bible verses might actually turn these people away. Would that be better?

Edit: After surfing the net, I have realised that his opinions are rather extreme. I could only find similar rants in fundamentalist Muslim forums.
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« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2006, 10:45:19 AM »

Well i'm just going to give one answer that answers the question about what I stated earlier.
Quote
"It seems that more and more often we see young women standing in church who, contrary to the explicit teachings and traditions of the Orthodox Church, are wearing immodest clothing, lipstick and no head coverings."

So he is a traditionalist in the sense that: (i'm making this sarcastic to prove a point)
"OBVIOUSLY we need to wear modest clothing and head coverings" which IS traditional

Also he is naive t othink that there are EXPLICIT teachings and TRADITIONS of the church in terms of wearing these things.  

There are also EXPLICIT teachings and TRADITIONS of the church that say the opposite, but he fails to say those.  

Here is another example:
Quote
"To an Orthodox young man who is devoted to serving God and the Church, it is far more appealing to see a young woman wearing a scarf in accordance with God’s law than to see one putting aside obedience to the Church in order to look more "attractive.""

so I am not a faithful orthodox man because I find a woman attractive without a scarf, which is CLEARLY in accordance with God's law  Roll Eyes

Last time i checked the devil tempts us way more with flesh than with head coverings.  I could be wrong though... Tongue
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« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2006, 01:01:18 PM »

From reading the essay I learned four things:

First, Mr. Williams has serious psychological problems and would probably benifit from a good secular therapist.

Secondly, Mr. Williams has a real problem with pride and vainglory (it's just oozing out of the essay...I mean does he really expect women to change their behaviour because he reveals his own personal fetishes?); however, as I enjoy the same vices, this isn't so much a criticism as an observation...perhaps he just needs to learn how to focus his pride and vainglory towards psychologically healthier thoughts and purposes.

Thirdly, Mr. Williams is completely out of touch with mainstream Orthodoxy and seems to be unduly influenced by his local imam.

And finally, Mr. Williams is most certainly not an academic.
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« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2006, 01:37:40 PM »

The article reeks to me of fundamentalism and judgmentalism.  The author is obviously very offended by what he sees as the immodesty of women in church, but could this be coming out of his own pharisaical self-righteousness?  His article seems to say this.

The author admits to being a young man.  Learning from my own experience, what a young man often believes is righteous indignation is really nothing more than his own anger and outrage.  Most young men I know--at 34 I'm not yet that far removed from being a young man--don't yet have great control of their passions, anger being a very common passion.  As such, I think a young man should work first on controlling his own anger through ascetic practice under the guidance of a spiritual father before speaking his outrage at various practices he sees in the Church.  Only after he has gained some mastery over his passion of anger will he actually be able to speak with the righteous indignation of a true spiritual authority.
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« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2006, 07:46:00 PM »

Perhaps the author sounds a little jugmental and talking like it's not that hard for people to change there ways, when it may be the case. But in other cases, i agree with him.

I agree that there is some problem with the dress that women wear in Church, but a lot of women do know how to dress when they are in Church. Men also need to watch they're wearing. You would be surprised at how many men have flashed me without knowing when prostrating in Church. And women, wearing a skirt means trying not to show the outline of your body, a mini skirt or a long tight skirt, OR a long skirt with a massive lit in the back doesn't count.

On the other hand, we Orthodox Christians shouldn't only try to dress 'modestly' in Church. We should try achieving a modest dress in our everyday life.
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« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2006, 08:26:12 PM »

Look people. It's sackcloth and ashes or you are going straight to Hell  Tongue

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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2006, 08:35:49 PM »

Look people. It's sackcloth and ashes or you are going straight to Hell  Tongue

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« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2006, 08:43:55 PM »

Look people. It's sackcloth and ashes or you are going straight to Hell  Tongue

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LOL...that would have conveyed the point and wasted far less of everyone's time.
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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2006, 08:59:50 PM »

It's sad that in the Christian world any call for modesty is met by outrage. Oh no, loose fitting clothes! Next thing you know we will be closing our eyes during sex scenes in movies, and become Amish. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2006, 09:02:06 PM »

It's sad that in the Christian world any call for modesty is met by outrage. Oh no, loose fitting clothes! Next thing you know we will be closing our eyes during sex scenes in movies, and become Amish. Roll Eyes

Feel free to wear whatever clothes you want...just dont go around calling down fire and brimstone on your neighbour if they disagree with your fashion reviews.

Personally I find headscarves unattractive and rather absurd in this day and age.
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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2006, 09:08:31 PM »

Feel free to wear whatever clothes you want...just dont go around calling down fire and brimstone on your neighbour if they disagree with your fashion reviews.

Personally I find headscarves unattractive and rather absurd in this day and age.

You are right. But there should be an effort to guide people in such a thing as clothing. I mean if men started wearing hats or shorts to Church, they would probably put up a notice in Church. So this article is some ways is that notice, with a little too much judgement.

Dude, head covering is not supposed to be sexy.
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« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2006, 09:09:46 PM »

It's sad that in the Christian world any call for modesty is met by outrage. Oh no, loose fitting clothes! Next thing you know we will be closing our eyes during sex scenes in movies, and become Amish. Roll Eyes

Ummm...Andrew, I think it is the "holier than thou" and presumptuous attitude of the author of the article that everyone is criticizing - not modest dress per se.  The author seems to assume that any female entering a church should know all Orthopraxis to a 't', what "ought" to be and to follow it to the letter.  We have two priests at my parish:  a father-son duo.  The father is almost 80 and "Emeritus" (has been a preist >50 years is on the conservative end) while the son is the rector (and even more conservative than dad).  The older Matushka doesn't wear a head covering while the younger Matushka wears one almost 100% of the time.  If this author (a Reader) said something to the older Matushka, I would take him outside and scold his butt and tell him he needs to confess his pompousness at the first opportunity and then go back and apologize to the Matushka.

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« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2006, 09:11:45 PM »

Quote
Dude, head covering is not supposed to be sexy.

You don't need to tell that to me, tell that to the author of the article...it was his statements to which I was reacting.
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« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2006, 09:17:26 PM »

Ummm...Andrew, I think it is the "holier than thou" and presumptuous attitude of the author of the article that everyone is criticizing - not modest dress per se.  The author seems to assume that any female entering a church should know all Orthopraxis to a 't', what "ought" to be and to follow it to the letter.  We have two priests at my parish:  a father-son duo.  The father is almost 80 and "Emeritus" (has been a preist >50 years is on the conservative end) while the son is the rector (and even more conservative than dad).  The older Matushka doesn't wear a head covering while the younger Matushka wears one almost 100% of the time.  If this author (a Reader) said something to the older Matushka, I would take him outside and scold his butt and tell him he needs to confess his pompousness at the first opportunity and then go back and apologize to the Matushka.



I get what you are saying. Maybe this chap Nathan is trying to act holier than thou. I just think that the man's point is correct. Just ignore the attitude he has, and look at the mesage he is trying to convey.

Look I am a sinful person. I don't think I in anyway am holier than anyone. I just have noticed that many men and women come to Church dressed in a way that is meant to attract the opposite sex through lust. We as Orthodox should strive not to live by societies norms, but by the teachings of the Church. And I think this is one of the points he is trying to make.
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« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2006, 09:18:46 PM »

And that sackcloth better not be threadbare! Minimum threadcount of 250!
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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2006, 09:20:48 PM »

God made the human form to be admired by the opposite sex. Or, was that Satan? Maybe we were all ugly jellyfish and when we "fell" God punished us by making women have all those sinful curves!

Hye! Maybe that explains the reason that women bring forth children in pain! It's cause of those sinful curves that they have been cursed with!
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« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2006, 09:22:00 PM »

God made the human form to be admired by the opposite sex. Or, was that Satan? Maybe we were all ugly jellyfish and when we "fell" God punished us by making women with all those sinful curves!

God also blessed marriage, which is the way we are to enjoy those curves.
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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2006, 09:23:42 PM »

God also blessed marriage, which is the way we are to enjoy those curves.

But we have to be attracted by them in the first place.
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« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2006, 09:25:47 PM »

But we have to be attracted by them in the first place.

Well, I don't think you have to be lustful in the firstplace. There is more to attraction that just the sexual kind, as you obviously know.

You can admire a man or women's beauty without thinking lustfully of their bodies.
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« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2006, 09:26:54 PM »

You don't need to tell that to me, tell that to the author of the article...it was his statements to which I was reacting.

Forgive my misunderstanding, Brother.
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« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2006, 10:10:35 PM »

Just ignore the attitude he has, and look at the mesage he is trying to convey.

I looked at the article.  The attitude is part of the "message", may be.

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« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2006, 10:19:41 PM »

Perhaps if the article was written with a less judgemental attitude it would be better.  However, looking at the past editions there, Reader Nathan seems to be around 19 or 20.  Now, I'm one that is not for using age as a qualifier, but most young men have . . . . a different understanding of women than the rest of the population.
That said, even though I of course agree with him on modesty for women (and men) and head coverings that's not really my first thought on meeting an Orthodox, but what type of life they join.
As one Greek priest once told me, "Yes, I do think women should wear headcoverings, but  considering in my parish I have people having pre-marital sex, involved in occult and other religions, or those who only come to Church twice a year, what's on top of women's heads is not my first concern."  A good viewpoint, imho.
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« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2006, 10:21:23 PM »

Perhaps if the article was written with a less judgemental attitude it would be better.  However, looking at the past editions there, Reader Nathan seems to be around 19 or 20.  Now, I'm one that is not for using age as a qualifier, but most young men have . . . . a different understanding of women than the rest of the population.
That said, even though I of course agree with him on modesty for women (and men) and head coverings that's not really my first thought on meeting an Orthodox, but what type of life they join.
As one Greek priest once told me, "Yes, I do think women should wear headcoverings, but  considering in my parish I have people having pre-marital sex, involved in occult and other religions, or those who only come to Church twice a year, what's on top of women's heads is not my first concern."  A good viewpoint, imho.

Good point made by the Priest there.

Number one, let's get the people to come to Church first, and let the rest of the stuff come after.
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« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2006, 10:25:53 PM »

I think the article writer makes some good points, but I don't like his argument that dressing modestly makes women more attractive to men.  Doesn't that kind of miss the point of dressing modestly?!   Wink  I characterize myself as a modest dresser, but I would think that dressing modestly solely in order to pick up guys risks the same moral pitfalls as dressing immodestly for the same reason.

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Personally I find headscarves unattractive and rather absurd in this day and age.

Forgive my presumptuousness, but would you care to elaborate on why you feel that headscarves are "absurd in this day and age"?
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2006, 10:35:25 PM »

Forgive my presumptuousness, but would you care to elaborate on why you feel that headscarves are "absurd in this day and age"?

Well, I've had this discussion a few times, I'll try to make this one less heated...headcoverings are simply not part of the modern cultural experience, in either western or orthodox countries. They are an artificial imposistion from a past era and culture; the reason I find headscarves absurd is the same reason that I would believe someone wearing a toga to Church would be absurd. Yeah, there was a time when it was culturally acceptable, and even the norm, but no longer. Unlike Islam, we do not absolutize past cultures, 1st Century Jewish Culture is not our own, our customs and practices differ and the attempt to maintain cultural standards from these past eras that are foreign to our modern experience is, thus, absurd.
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2006, 10:47:23 PM »

I think the author is a total dweeb and is just bitter that girls aren't interested in him.   Lips Sealed
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« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2006, 11:04:48 PM »

Well, I've had this discussion a few times, I'll try to make this one less heated...headcoverings are simply not part of the modern cultural experience, in either western or orthodox countries. They are an artificial imposistion from a past era and culture; the reason I find headscarves absurd is the same reason that I would believe someone wearing a toga to Church would be absurd.

Interesting.  Thank you.

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Yeah, there was a time when it was culturally acceptable, and even the norm, but no longer. Unlike Islam, we do not absolutize past cultures, 1st Century Jewish Culture is not our own, our customs and practices differ and the attempt to maintain cultural standards from these past eras that are foreign to our modern experience is, thus, absurd.

If I remember correctly, headcoverings were the norm for churchgoing women--not only for Orthodox but for many Christian women everywhere--until just a few decades ago.  I wonder why women stopped wearing them after so long.
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« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2006, 02:03:50 AM »

I think the author is a total dweeb and is just bitter that girls aren't interested in him.   Lips Sealed

Hah!  I wouldn't doubt it.

If I'm not mistaken, orthodox.net is a ROCOR site.  Well....I was at the ROCOR cathedral in SF for choir practice tonight.  Before practice, right as Vespers was ending, I saw 3 women in the church who.....*gasp*...HAD NO HEADCOVERING!  Scandal!    Shocked  Grin  Well, the priest who was there did NOT go get a scarf for any of them and it looked like he did a small Panakhida for them to.  No, the Orthodox dress police did not attack them.  They were otherwise dressed modestly.  
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« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2006, 11:05:48 AM »

Hah!  I wouldn't doubt it.

If I'm not mistaken, orthodox.net is a ROCOR site.  Well....I was at the ROCOR cathedral in SF for choir practice tonight.  Before practice, right as Vespers was ending, I saw 3 women in the church who.....*gasp*...HAD NO HEADCOVERING!  Scandal!    Shocked  Grin  Well, the priest who was there did NOT go get a scarf for any of them and it looked like he did a small Panakhida for them to.  No, the Orthodox dress police did not attack them.  They were otherwise dressed modestly.  

This just reminded me about somthing that happend last Liturgy. A women came to running to the Priest right before Liturgy so she can be absolved and be able to take communion that day. As she was asking him, the Priest noticed that she was 'holding' her headscarf in her hand instead of wearing it. He told her to put it on, which made me think... hunh? there must be a reason, right?
Besides, i don't think it made sense to hold the headscarf in your hand, when it's suppose to be on your head.
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« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2006, 11:25:55 AM »

This just reminded me about somthing that happend last Liturgy. A women came to running to the Priest right before Liturgy so she can be absolved and be able to take communion that day. As she was asking him, the Priest noticed that she was 'holding' her headscarf in her hand instead of wearing it. He told her to put it on, which made me think... hunh? there must be a reason, right?
Besides, i don't think it made sense to hold the headscarf in your hand, when it's suppose to be on your head.

There are so many problems with this scenario I wouldn't even know where to start...
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« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2006, 11:26:39 AM »

He told her to put it on, which made me think... hunh? there must be a reason, right?

The reason is that's what THIS PRIEST thinks is correct.
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« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2006, 11:37:45 AM »

Besides, i don't think it made sense to hold the headscarf in your hand, when it's suppose to be on your head.

She might not have had time to put it on before leaving the house or getting out of the car, and just grabbed the scarf on the way out the door.
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« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2006, 12:29:14 PM »

There are so many problems with this scenario I wouldn't even know where to start...

OK, then I'll start.  Grin

1) Why didn't she properly prepare and go to Confession earlier in the morning or a prior day instead of rushing the priest right before Liturgy?

2) If she had time to even grab the scarf, then she could have taken time to actually put it on - otherwise no sense in bothering.

3) The priest didn't need to bother her about the scarf - let her decide on her piety herself, as piety is a personal thing.  But this goes back to 2) above as the scarf reminded him by it's presence and not being in proper place....

4) What was the rush to be absolved and take Communion that day?  Did she just find out the day prior that she was going to die the next day or something?

But I needlessly speculate....
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« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2006, 12:33:37 PM »

Quote
Well....I was at the ROCOR cathedral in SF for choir practice tonight.  Before practice, right as Vespers was ending, I saw 3 women in the church who.....*gasp*...HAD NO HEADCOVERING!  Scandal!  

What!   Shocked Modernist Liberal ecummenicism has infilterated even the highest levels of the Russian Church Abroad.  A stop must be put to this immedietly.  Oy vey.
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« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2006, 02:19:17 PM »

What! ÂÂ  Shocked Modernist Liberal ecummenicism has infilterated even the highest levels of the Russian Church Abroad. ÂÂ A stop must be put to this immedietly. ÂÂ Oy vey.

I'll assume you're being facetious.
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« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2006, 02:30:48 PM »

Traditionalist priets and confession....i'm gona shut up so that the topic doesn't sway to something COMPLETELY different...although now it just might  Wink

I wonder how long this woman's skirt was...maybe that's why he was looking down  Wink   Tongue
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« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2006, 02:32:53 PM »

I wonder how long this woman's skirt was...maybe that's why he was looking down ÂÂ Wink ÂÂ  Tongue

Well, if it was Greek Church, the question would be how low-cut the top was!  Cheesy
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« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2006, 02:49:36 PM »

I'll assume you're being facetious.

Yes, my apologies.  It's good to make fun of ourselves at times.
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« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2006, 02:58:30 PM »

Well, if it was Greek Church, the question would be how low-cut the top was!  Cheesy

I would say its a 1-2 combo.  Top to bottomn, which is why he "eventually" saw the head scarf in the hand...i'm sure the hand was the last place he was looking  Wink

Wow has this gone far...
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« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2006, 05:03:00 PM »

The reason is that's what THIS PRIEST thinks is correct.

They're are some who come without headscarfs, the Priest doesn't tell them to wear one. But he told this particular one to put it on her head. She was holding it in her hand, it made more sense to wear it instead of holding it and running around.
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« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2006, 05:33:40 PM »

1) Why didn't she properly prepare and go to Confession earlier in the morning or a prior day instead of rushing the priest right before Liturgy?

She could have been running late that morning.  It happens.  Last Sunday I had to go on a ten minute quest for my housekeys, before realizing they were in my purse all along.   Smiley

Quote
2) If she had time to even grab the scarf, then she could have taken time to actually put it on - otherwise no sense in bothering.

I've been in a rush before leaving the house before, and just grabbed my scarf and ran out the door, and put it on in the ladies' room when I got there.

Quote
3) The priest didn't need to bother her about the scarf - let her decide on her piety herself, as piety is a personal thing.  But this goes back to 2) above as the scarf reminded him by it's presence and not being in proper place....

He might have just been telling her to put it on so she wouldn't forget.

Quote
4) What was the rush to be absolved and take Communion that day?  Did she just find out the day prior that she was going to die the next day or something?

Hey, "the bridegroom cometh in the middle of the night..."   Smiley
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« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2006, 05:51:00 PM »

Well, if it was Greek Church, the question would be how low-cut the top was!  Cheesy

At my parish, EVERYONE looks for if a woman or girl is wearing a skirt versus pants. Until recently, I've almost been so used to hearing "omg women don't wear pants in church."

The funniest thing happened last year. A young lady who reads the epistle in english walked down the aisle in church wearing pants and the entire church (especially the old ppl) were gasping and hissing. The altarboy next to me got mad too -"how can she walk in here with pants, AND THEN proceed to read the Epistle".

ooo the deaded pants
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« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2006, 08:36:01 PM »

She could have been running late that morning.  It happens.  Last Sunday I had to go on a ten minute quest for my housekeys, before realizing they were in my purse all along.   Smiley


LoL. I do that all the time with my sunglasses. In the end i always find them resting on top of my head.
At my parish, EVERYONE looks for if a woman or girl is wearing a skirt versus pants. Until recently, I've almost been so used to hearing "omg women don't wear pants in church."

The funniest thing happened last year. A young lady who reads the epistle in english walked down the aisle in church wearing pants and the entire church (especially the old ppl) were gasping and hissing. The altarboy next to me got mad too -"how can she walk in here with pants, AND THEN proceed to read the Epistle".

ooo the deaded pants

Perhaps the lady in the pants didn't realize what she was suppose to be wearing. It happens in many cases, we just need to be reminded somtimes.

On the other hand, the altarboy got mad? Aw, that's not nice. Perhaps he should pray for her.
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« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2006, 09:58:43 PM »

(quoting myself to help put my next post in context)
The article reeks to me of fundamentalism and judgmentalism.  The author is obviously very offended by what he sees as the immodesty of women in church, but could this be coming out of his own pharisaical self-righteousness?  His article seems to say this.

The author admits to being a young man.  Learning from my own experience, what a young man often believes is righteous indignation is really nothing more than his own anger and outrage.  Most young men I know--at 34 I'm not yet that far removed from being a young man--don't yet have great control of their passions, anger being a very common passion.  As such, I think a young man should work first on controlling his own anger through ascetic practice under the guidance of a spiritual father before speaking his outrage at various practices he sees in the Church.  Only after he has gained some mastery over his passion of anger will he actually be able to speak with the righteous indignation of a true spiritual authority.

I do, however, agree with much of the substance of his article--once I separate the substance from the article's angry, judgmental style.  I do believe that we enter the temple of the church to worship God and pray to Him, and that nothing should then distract our minds from the communal prayer of the Church.  This requires that women and men dress modestly so as to not distract other worshippers.  This is a big reason why my parish choir director doesn't allow choir members to wear sweatshirts with colorfully printed images and text while they are singing church services.

The rules that define this spirit of modesty, however, are a totally different issue that will vary from church to church largely out of pastoral concerns.  With rules, though, comes the all-too-common temptation to replace the spirit of the rules with their letter, forgetting what the rules are for.  Let's say we define modesty to require head coverings for women even outside of church.  Is a woman wearing a full-length dress with a long-sleeved blouse that covers her neck being immodest for no other reason than the lack of a head covering?  Or the converse, is a woman wearing a skimpy bikini at the swimming pool suddenly modest because she puts on a head scarf?  Separate from the spirit of the rules, our interpretation of these rules can become very out-of-whack.

Modesty is the spirit that we must cultivate.  Rules are only the means to this spirit and should never be interpreted legalistically as an unchanging end in and of themselves.
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« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2006, 12:09:49 AM »

I agree about the men thing.  How many guys wear Armani suits and Gucci shoes and belt combo to look flashy and rich?  Its the same principle.  

However, on an opposite note, i've seen GYPSIES wear nicer clothes to church than some of the people out there.  I'm sorry, if a GYPSIE can wear nice clothes to church, so can everyone else (speaking generally).  

The ensuing discussion about the Gypsies/Roma has been split off into its own topic.  You can find it here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8954.0
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« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2006, 09:47:46 AM »

http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Top_Ten_Signs_You_Might_Be_Russian_Orthodox.htm
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« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2006, 07:35:32 PM »

Modesty is the spirit that we must cultivate.
Thank you, true.  I agree with many of the points brought up in the article, but as many have said the tone of it did strike me as angry and strident rather than gentle, humble reproof.

Headcoverings are beautiful- I don't think it's vanity to think or say so.  We admire icons not only for their spiritual qualities, but for their beauty.  That said, I probably wouldn't wear a headcovering if I visited a parish that didn't use them.  Anything that distracts those who've come to worship, draws attention to yourself, is best avoided, no?  For the sake of our own prayers and love for others.
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« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2006, 04:12:32 PM »

Thank you, true.  I agree with many of the points brought up in the article, but as many have said the tone of it did strike me as angry and strident rather than gentle, humble reproof.

Headcoverings are beautiful- I don't think it's vanity to think or say so.  We admire icons not only for their spiritual qualities, but for their beauty.  That said, I probably wouldn't wear a headcovering if I visited a parish that didn't use them.  Anything that distracts those who've come to worship, draws attention to yourself, is best avoided, no?  For the sake of our own prayers and love for others.

I agree, headcoverings are beautiful. Except those headcoverings that Muslim women are usually forced to wear (hijabs), now that's depressing because most of those women are forced to wear it.
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« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2006, 04:26:39 PM »

I personally, would never *not* wear a scarf, skirt, and shirt with sleeves to church.  Which feels like the "right" thing.  However, so many crazy things have appeared online about modesty, that it's easy to sometimes disregard it.  One thing that bugs me is : "no Orthodox Christian woman EVER wears pants."  If you don't want to wear them, fine, but these sweeping statements can be annoying.  I've also read so many posts saying "a young woman came to church in jeans and I was SOOOOOOO OFFENDED!"  No, you shouldn't wear jeans to church, but all this judging of others can't be a good thing.
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« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2006, 05:05:47 PM »

If I remember correctly, headcoverings were the norm for churchgoing women--not only for Orthodox but for many Christian women everywhere--until just a few decades ago.  I wonder why women stopped wearing them after so long.

Erm, did someone forget to tell my parish? Maybe it's different because it's a monastery so women are more respectful/aware I don't know, but generally all the women wear something to cover their head (usually a headscarf) and long skirts and also just generally dress and behave modesly, as do the men. This isn't something we should just allow to die out, in my opinion.
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« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2006, 05:06:58 PM »

I personally, would never *not* wear a scarf, skirt, and shirt with sleeves to church.  Which feels like the "right" thing.  However, so many crazy things have appeared online about modesty, that it's easy to sometimes disregard it.  One thing that bugs me is : "no Orthodox Christian woman EVER wears pants."  If you don't want to wear them, fine, but these sweeping statements can be annoying.  I've also read so many posts saying "a young woman came to church in jeans and I was SOOOOOOO OFFENDED!"  No, you shouldn't wear jeans to church, but all this judging of others can't be a good thing.

I think this (the pants thing) is the most ridiculous thing ever (I'm a male). ÂÂ What is more distracting (especially to the male) - a young beautiful woman with hair down (and uncovered), skirt flirtingly too short (e.g. a few inches above the knee) and sleevless form-fitting shirt or the same young woman with her hair up (but uncovered) and wearing a conservative pants-suit? ÂÂ While I think it is obvious to most that the first example is less proper, some of the zealots will incest that the second is in the wrong for "cross-dressing" due to the pants. ÂÂ  Roll Eyes Stupid.
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« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2006, 05:51:00 PM »

I had no idea that women in most Orthodox churches are expected to wear skirts til this and other discussions here on OCnet.  I loathe the things except on very special occasions, so I'm counting my blessings not to be in a parish with such expectations.

Because of that, I'm no doubt biased, but headcovering to my mind is in a different category.  It is type and symbolism-there is some real theological weight there.  I can't fathom what rationale there is for "having" to wear a skirt.
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« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2006, 10:10:31 PM »

I think this (the pants thing) is the most ridiculous thing ever (I'm a male). ÂÂ What is more distracting (especially to the male) - a young beautiful woman with hair down (and uncovered), skirt flirtingly too short (e.g. a few inches above the knee) and sleevless form-fitting shirt or the same young woman with her hair up (but uncovered) and wearing a conservative pants-suit? ÂÂ While I think it is obvious to most that the first example is less proper, some of the zealots will incest that the second is in the wrong for "cross-dressing" due to the pants. ÂÂ  Roll Eyes Stupid.

Are we seriously going to be talking about combinations here?  Cuz if we are you'd better roll up your sleaves buddy.  I go to a seminary where GOYA trips come every weekend with a new batch of GOYA girls and their idea of "propriety"   Wink Grin

About skirts:

Actually i've never thought about why women HAVE to wear skirts.  I would guess cuz its considered more "modest" and does not show ALL the curves, and doesn't really accentuate legs....i'm guessing though..
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« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2006, 10:19:02 PM »

Are we seriously going to be talking about combinations here?  Cuz if we are you'd better roll up your sleaves buddy.  I go to a seminary where GOYA trips come every weekend with a new batch of GOYA girls and their idea of "propriety"   Wink Grin

About skirts:

Actually i've never thought about why women HAVE to wear skirts.  I would guess cuz its considered more "modest" and does not show ALL the curves, and doesn't really accentuate legs....i'm guessing though..

Look back a couple of posts - I mentioned an example of at the ROCOR cathedral on Monday where some women did NOT have headcoverings, the sky did not fall and no one was scandalized (although there wasn't a whole lot of people around to be scandalized as it was after a weekday Vespers).  At a feastday vigil for this cathedral (St. John Maximovitch - Archbishop present), there were teenage girls with skirts above the knees, no headcovering and form fitting sleevless shirts...and they still got blessed by the Bishop and the world did not come crashing down.  BUT, (admittedly from hearsay), I heard some incident where some city councilwoman showed up in an expensive pants suit and someone tried to wrap a ratty skirt around her.  Lame.

Female conservative pants (e.g. in suits) are not form-fitting either (curve showing).  They are loose.  It is the "cross-dressing" accusation I hear.
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« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2006, 10:40:02 PM »

I've visited the cathedral with St. John in it, and every time my gf was asked by some old Russian guy who didn't speak english to put on a skirt.  In fact, she was walking around in the Narthex, cuz she was brought up right and didn't want to enter the church without a skirt, and this guy ran at a dead sprint towards her yelling about not having a skirt on.  

Thank God she doesn't speak Russian, but I did and I gave that guy a piece of my mind.  I don't care if he's the archbishop himself.  He's telling her to put on a skirt but he ran in church!   Grin

P.S.  i don't know that kind of suits you've seen but the ones I have are VERY...lets just say "nice"   Wink
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« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2006, 11:09:06 PM »

I've visited the cathedral with St. John in it, and every time my gf was asked by some old Russian guy who didn't speak english to put on a skirt.  In fact, she was walking around in the Narthex, cuz she was brought up right and didn't want to enter the church without a skirt, and this guy ran at a dead sprint towards her yelling about not having a skirt on.  

Thank God she doesn't speak Russian, but I did and I gave that guy a piece of my mind.  I don't care if he's the archbishop himself.  He's telling her to put on a skirt but he ran in church!   Grin

P.S.  i don't know that kind of suits you've seen but the ones I have are VERY...lets just say "nice"   Wink


Oh I don't doubt it!  But the old Russian guy was not there that day.

Suits:  It's a suit, but also subject to the alterations and the shirt worn under it.  They are still "loose" in comparison to jeans are men's khakis.
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« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2006, 11:24:35 PM »

I've visited the cathedral with St. John in it, and every time my gf was asked by some old Russian guy who didn't speak english to put on a skirt.  In fact, she was walking around in the Narthex, cuz she was brought up right and didn't want to enter the church without a skirt, and this guy ran at a dead sprint towards her yelling about not having a skirt on. ÂÂ

Thank God she doesn't speak Russian, but I did and I gave that guy a piece of my mind. ÂÂ I don't care if he's the archbishop himself. ÂÂ He's telling her to put on a skirt but he ran in church! ÂÂ  Grin

P.S. ÂÂ i don't know that kind of suits you've seen but the ones I have are VERY...lets just say "nice" ÂÂ  Wink

I too went to that beautiful cathedral and some nice lady with her husband and children came in the door and the same old russian man came freaking out from behind the counter and wad yelling his heado ff at her on how can she wear pants in church. There are a million ways he could've said it niclier or maybe even as a gentle reminder for next time she shows up not a "strip n dress or else" attitude. btw, at that church 2 summers ago when I was there, there were like 5 services happening all at once. A confession in one corner, a memorial for the dead in another, saturday vespers at the altar, and another service somewhere else. Is this typical for russian churches or just because its a cathedral?
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« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2006, 11:31:29 PM »

I personally, would never *not* wear a scarf, skirt, and shirt with sleeves to church.  Which feels like the "right" thing.  However, so many crazy things have appeared online about modesty, that it's easy to sometimes disregard it.  One thing that bugs me is : "no Orthodox Christian woman EVER wears pants."  If you don't want to wear them, fine, but these sweeping statements can be annoying.  I've also read so many posts saying "a young woman came to church in jeans and I was SOOOOOOO OFFENDED!"  No, you shouldn't wear jeans to church, but all this judging of others can't be a good thing.

I agree that the whole judging others as to what they are wearing in Church may not be so great. However, if someone chooses not to wear a skirt or headscraf, they are not forced to wear it.

Anyway if the scarf, skirt thing feels like the "right" thing to do, then why not go for somthing you think may be right?

Furthermore, many people here are mentioned that "others" in Church have been freaking out if someone doesn't wear a skirt to Church.  I don't know why they freak out, it's not the end of the world. Yes, it's nice to be modest and us Orthodox Christians should try to be more modest, but i don't think it's so cool to 'freak' out on those women who dress in jeans to Church. What happend to praying for one another?
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« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2006, 12:31:06 AM »

I too went to that beautiful cathedral and some nice lady with her husband and children came in the door and the same old russian man came freaking out from behind the counter and wad yelling his heado ff at her on how can she wear pants in church. There are a million ways he could've said it niclier or maybe even as a gentle reminder for next time she shows up not a "strip n dress or else" attitude. btw, at that church 2 summers ago when I was there, there were like 5 services happening all at once. A confession in one corner, a memorial for the dead in another, saturday vespers at the altar, and another service somewhere else. Is this typical for russian churches or just because its a cathedral?

Maybe it is just this one old Russian man who is the problem....his own problem then to deal with.

My choir director (OCA parish) who has travelled a lot says that concurrent services in a big church are not unusual.  I think he said he's even seen a Wedding and Funeral going on at the same time.
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« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2006, 12:35:25 AM »

As a child in America during the 50's and 60's, we always wore hats to church.. Easter bonnets, or winter hats..Both Orthodox and RC churches had this practice.. maybe others.. in general a woman always wore a hat and white gloves when dressed up in public. According to my mom, it was the 'teased' hairstyle of the 60's that did away with them..Jackie Kennedy was the last first lady to really have been pictured regularly wearing a hat as part of 'dressup' wear.  Recently I visited a little monastery on Santorini.. and we had been on the beach in shorts.. so we covered up our legs with big towels to enter the church.. hubby too by the way!!.. but I was not asked to cover my head..
There are several things to consider here..
-first, in general dressing modestly is always a guideline.. church or not.. this style where guys have their pants halfway down their butt is one counter example..skirts so short the panties show, I'dtake pants over that,   ÃƒÆ’‚ Body piercing, tattoing, etc.. i.e. mutilation.. another counter example.. my son was the only one of his peers who knew how to put on a tie because of our church practice.. so, in general, it is not just church dress, but general dress that must be considered.
- second.. while in general I agree that proper dress and behavior should go hand in hand... I have learned some frightening truths..consider our local  RC parochial high school that espouses modesty, chastity, Christian values, prayer, etc.. It is a top notch Blue ribbon awarded school...Orthodox in the area use it.. we do too..all the kids wear uniforms and the parents pay to send the kids to this environment... I was shocked to learn that these same parents hold parties serving alcohol to minors and rent hotel rooms for post prom partying at the beach... a senior class pre prom meetingof kids and parents- with the Sisters telling the parents this is wrong,illegal, unsafe,  not to do it.. etc.. -this went on deaf ears.. and, I've learned from my son that most girls have been 'dishing out sex' since sixth grade...girls who I thought were 'modest', polite, Orthodox or not...
So, the priest who said 'head coverings was the least of his worries' was right... There are much bigger issues at stake and Mr. Williams while comparing head coverings to statements of the Holy Fathers is talking about 'how to win a battle.. when the war is already lost'. he is missing the big picture... The question is not why aren't women more modest in church.. the question is how did the church lose it's flock? And how can it get it back?

IMHO, the answer is in the fact that for years  the church & it's services- many in 'foreign language ' just  did not connect with the youth, offer solace for victims of domestic abuse, counseling for troubled youth, etc.  these  were left to govern't institutions and non-profits... so, people found their help elsewhere.  Women left destitute by irresponsible husbands learned they needed to take care of themselves...got educated, went to work, and you will not convince them that a man is their head... Only recently have priests been given guidance on marriage counseling.. and some are awful at it...get them away from the altar chanting the DL and they are all thumbs...Let's also remember that until 20+ years ago, it was believed that women's brains were inferior in physiology to those of men...and therefore they had to be 'headed' by a man in order to survive...some of the older teachings are based on this.

Mr. Williams article, while I understand his intent,  is chillingly frightening in it's complete lack of understanding of the true challenges for the church and society as a whole.  If in fact he is a teen or young adult... then that would explain this as simple naivete... Ask yourself -if you learned that your teen was doing something wrong.. drinking, drug, sex, you name it,  would your priest and parish be able to assist you? My bet you would be shown a list of gov't. social services to help you...& they will  show the kids the condoms and tell the parents to cool it...or give the pregnant girl an abortion reference...

In my opinion, a truly smart priest will not turn people away because of lack of head scarves... but will keep them coming back to church more and more with homilies that inspire, excite, and teach...if the people are not in church, he can't influence them.. so take them with their 'imperfections' and work to help them..

In XC, Kizzy.

 
 
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« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2006, 02:02:08 AM »

I think he said he's even seen a Wedding and Funeral going on at the same time.
Throw in an infant baptism, and you get what my priest once called, "hatch, match, and dispatch."  Shocked Cheesy  (Kinda crass, but I couldn't resist.  Grin)
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« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2006, 02:06:31 AM »

Throw in an infant baptism, and you get what my priest once called, "hatch, match, and dispatch."  Shocked Cheesy  (Kinda crass, but I couldn't resist.  Grin)

Don't blame you...funny.
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« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2006, 05:37:15 AM »

StBrigid wrote: "Because of that, I'm no doubt biased, but headcovering to my mind is in a different category.  It is type and symbolism-there is some real theological weight there.  I can't fathom what rationale there is for "having" to wear a skirt."

I think it is the old curve-issue. I don't quite get it either. What about those women who have rather, eh, big curves?

I am rather ambivalent in this matter. I understand the symbolism behind the head covering, and it does have some real theological weight. However, being a mere 'hang-around', I haven't donned one yet. It might sound strange, but there are so many other things I have to deal with. I have heard so much about the infamous 'convert zeal', and it is easy to get caught up in external things (I'm not trying to trash the hang-arounds or catechumens who do wear head coverings, I am only talking about myself here). For all our talk of modesty, we tend to forget that it sometimes means different things to different people; hardly any of the women in 'my' congregation wear headscarves, and they seem like rather pious people. When I asked the priest about the whole head-covering thing, he told me that I was welcome to wear a headscarf if I wanted to, but I did not have to.

What serb1389 wrote about St John's cathedral sounds very strange. I am not quite sure how I would react in such a situation.
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« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2006, 08:21:56 AM »

Elisha,

Gotta love the comments about cross dressing, undoubtably from the passage that tells women not to dress like men nor men to dress like women...Do these people never think about the fact that at the time this was written, EVERYONE wore skirts?
So it's not a skirt vs. pants issue.
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« Reply #73 on: May 05, 2006, 09:12:33 AM »

Maybe it is just this one old Russian man who is the problem....his own problem then to deal with.

My choir director (OCA parish) who has travelled a lot says that concurrent services in a big church are not unusual.  I think he said he's even seen a Wedding and Funeral going on at the same time.

Honestly, I have a sneaking suspision that its the same guy....one day we can go and find out and rid the world of such peopl!!!!!  wait...the crusades are over... Wink  Tongue

And i've seen in churches of "russian" descent a lot of mixed services.  Every time i've ever been to St. Tikhon's Seminary, there have always been other things going on during liturgy...

I think that its personally destracting, and maybe a little taxing on the HS  Wink Grin
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« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2006, 12:13:01 PM »

I guess I'll put in my 2 cents.  
One there is a big difference between a mini skirt that is painted on and a normal, even pencil cut, skirt that brushes the knees or thereabouts.  
Two,  I am one of those women with big curves, you could put me in a muumuu and know they are there. So it wouldn't matter if I were wearing a skirt (which is what i wear in church) or pants.  if a guy is that distracted, then he isnt giving his full attention to church matters, is he?

a side note, i gained some poundage over the winter, and the curves got bigger.  i have to wear what I have, which isnt much, but I do throw on a hideous big sweater over the top of the more , shall we say, bosomy dress, if I happen to wear it.  Summer is coming now though, so I don't know what i am going to do.

I dont wear a headcovering, it isnt expected.  
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« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2006, 12:35:15 PM »

Honestly, the only women who show up at church in pants are Russian, except for occasional college student whose probably taking a Russian History class!  I think the difference if; these visitors are not regular church-goers.  I can't really comment on whether pants are appropriate or not for church, because they simply aren't worn where I go, other than the exceptions I mentioned.  No doubt though, modesty is way subjective!  I see all the hooker-wannabe teenagers and can't believe how they dress, oth, I've read converts saying "don't wear a v-neckline, it calls attention to your chest", "don't let your cross show, keep it tucked in", "don't let your hair show, keep it all under your scarf."  I think a big part of the issue is people just have no idea what is appropriate anymore.  None.  Last summer, there was a funeral for a soldier killed in Iraq, and the front page of the local paper showed his casket, with a girl in a black strapless "cocktail" dress standing next to it!  This poor girl just didn't know better.  And tv doesn't help!   (I also notice that some Russian women put on their scarves when they go up for Communion.  Anyone who has been to Russia know is all women cover their heads when they enter the church?)  Btw, I had a friend who went to a service on Crete, who said there were old men in the back of the church smoking...but that's another thread Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2006, 12:50:45 PM »

Isn't modesty supposed to come from the person's heart anyway?  No girls are taught modesty anymore, looking for clothes on the rack of any store is fruaght with horror for us moms. ( I have a teen dd and she hates current style and wears frumpy ugly baggy clothes instead)  If it's not taught as part of a child's formative education, how are they going to employ it later?  It's like the forgotten part of one's christian upbringing these days, because it's just old fashioned.

I wear whatever I can get my hands on, but I dont' think i have worn pants to church so far.  I spend all what monies we have on my kids clothes, and have trouble finding my little girls modest dresses.  skirts for little girls are next to impossible to find, and when you do they are shorter than shorts.  I just do the best I can, even if my cross does show.  I trust God knows my heart in the matter.  and He knows how aggravated I get when males police the issue.  Seems like men are so bent on making sure the women are doing everything just so, and then they go home and look at porn on the internet.... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2006, 01:27:20 PM »

Elisha,

Gotta love the comments about cross dressing, undoubtably from the passage that tells women not to dress like men nor men to dress like women...Do these people never think about the fact that at the time this was written, EVERYONE wore skirts?
So it's not a skirt vs. pants issue.

Probably either some double standard or not realizing the anachronism.  I know I'd tell off the guy if I saw him and he did it to someone I know.
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« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2006, 01:56:59 PM »

I dont wear a headcovering, it isnt expected. ÂÂ

Yeah, not in your average greek parish. But whenever u go to the monastiria, oo thats different. Most of them want the women to dress n scarf up. The one near me "St. Patro Kosmas" is less strict since its so far away from the Vatican-I mean Arizona Smiley As long as you're wearing a dress, ur cool. Most women still wear veils there tho, but not all. The scary part is when married women start dressing exactly like the nuns 24/7- that freaks me out.
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« Reply #79 on: May 05, 2006, 02:31:50 PM »

Kizzy, very interesting point there.

I like that question that you have brought up, i think it's somthing we should all ask ourselves.

Isn't modesty supposed to come from the person's heart anyway?  No girls are taught modesty anymore, looking for clothes on the rack of any store is fruaght with horror for us moms. ( I have a teen dd and she hates current style and wears frumpy ugly baggy clothes instead)  If it's not taught as part of a child's formative education, how are they going to employ it later?  It's like the forgotten part of one's christian upbringing these days, because it's just old fashioned.

I wear whatever I can get my hands on, but I dont' think i have worn pants to church so far.  I spend all what monies we have on my kids clothes, and have trouble finding my little girls modest dresses.  skirts for little girls are next to impossible to find, and when you do they are shorter than shorts.  I just do the best I can, even if my cross does show.  I trust God knows my heart in the matter.  and He knows how aggravated I get when males police the issue.  Seems like men are so bent on making sure the women are doing everything just so, and then they go home and look at porn on the internet.... Roll Eyes

You're right, skirts for little girls are almost impissible to find, and when you do find the skirts for these little girls, they're waaay tooo short! That's why most mothers at my Parish go get skirts tailor made for their little ones.
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« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2006, 04:05:35 PM »

I HOPE this isn't againt the rules, but I'm at work, and don't have time to look!

http://store.nordstrom.com/product/product.asp?styleid=2888701&category=2379292~2379293~2384338~2384344&PrevStyleID=2893495&NextStyleID=2888995

This is for skirt-searching moms.
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« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2006, 05:38:29 PM »

Whenever this topic comes up, I wonder what is it that some people think is "intrinsically masculine" about pants that women wearing them are "cross-dressing" or "in men's clothing" or "immodest"?  There are reasons behind clothing like "What is the person wearing it doing?"  "What are the materials available?"  "What technology is available for making clothing?" "What is the climate or conditions of the place the clothing is being worn?"  "Is there any ritual meaning or does a garment just have practical use?"  The History of clothing is part of learning about other cultures.

How can a woman from Pakistan or India or Bangladesh be "acting male" while wearing a kameez and the trousers that go with it?  What about a Japanese farm woman in "mompe"?  Is she "cross-dressing"?  No, that is a practical garment for the hard work she has to do and particular in working in places like rice paddies. The Kimono for men and women are cut the same.  It is the colours and decorations that make one for male or female wear, and even then there are some that serve both.  Do Inuit women wear skirts in the Arctic? No, Leggings/trousers keep everyone from freezing.

Judging someone's dress by only one standard might have some pitfalls.

Ebor

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« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2006, 05:40:29 PM »

Whenever this topic comes up, I wonder what is it that some people think is "intrinsically masculine" about pants that women wearing them are "cross-dressing" or "in men's clothing" or "immodest"?  There are reasons behind clothing like "What is the person wearing it doing?"  "What are the materials available?"  "What technology is available for making clothing?" "What is the climate or conditions of the place the clothing is being worn?"  "Is there any ritual meaning or does a garment just have practical use?"  The History of clothing is part of learning about other cultures.

How can a woman from Pakistan or India or Bangladesh be "acting male" while wearing a kameez and the trousers that go with it?  What about a Japanese farm woman in "mompe"?  Is she "cross-dressing"?  No, that is a practical garment for the hard work she has to do and particular in working in places like rice paddies. The Kimono for men and women are cut the same.  It is the colours and decorations that make one for male or female wear, and even then there are some that serve both.  Do Inuit women wear skirts in the Arctic? No, Leggings/trousers keep everyone from freezing.

Judging someone's dress by only one standard might have some pitfalls.

Thank you Ebor, while the absurdities inherent in these clothing discussions are ones I have pointed out in the past, I just didn't feel like bothering this time Wink
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« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2006, 05:42:51 PM »

Gad!! Another point of agreement between us!  
<Get me my digitalis!>  
 Grin Cheesy Grin

Have you had a chance to read some of the saga references to the Varangian Guard?

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« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2006, 05:44:02 PM »

Thank you Ebor, while the absurdities inherent in these clothing discussions are ones I have pointed out in the past, I just didn't feel like bothering this time Wink

Well, we could go back to saying "Bowl of Petunias" when something like this pops up again.
 Wink

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« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2006, 05:50:45 PM »

Gad!! Another point of agreement between us!  
<Get me my digitalis!>  
 Grin Cheesy Grin
Man, it's like GiC and me agreeing on anything.  Wink
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« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2006, 09:55:45 PM »

I HOPE this isn't againt the rules, but I'm at work, and don't have time to look!

http://store.nordstrom.com/product/product.asp?styleid=2888701&category=2379292~2379293~2384338~2384344&PrevStyleID=2893495&NextStyleID=2888995

This is for skirt-searching moms.

That's a really pretty skirt for kids.  Grin

I once had a conversation about "skirts" with a girl, she mentioned that wearing skirts made one look like an Amish. I had to disagree! Many think that by wearing long skirts, you don't look stylish and just end up looking like you're a potato peeling women who works out in the fields all day.
I don't believe that's the case. I'm always wearing skirts, and i find them pretty looking. Here's an example of how I dress and how many women in my Church dress:





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« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2006, 11:20:18 PM »

The only thing absurd about these clothing discussions is that there will always be uptight men policing what women are wearing and what they are to wear-and making into a theology all it's own.  So women learn to deal with it.  The hard part is when fashion dictates that lengths are so short you can see a woman's navel-oops word picture there *be alert*  or when skirts are hardly even made anymore unless they are the business suit skirts that look  freaky in church.  And they arent' long either.  And I will tell you this.  I worked in  the children's departments at many churches over the years.  The men that work in there can use the opportunity to look at little girls in their shorts and skorts, which are always wayy too short!  I ran off one pedophile, and come to find out he was kicked out of 3 other churches.  So, modesty for our little girls isn't really a bad thing when you think about it.
As far as the Brittany skirt, bad example.  The western one, well that's another story.
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« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2006, 11:37:33 PM »

The only thing absurd about these clothing discussions is that there will always be uptight men policing what women are wearing and what they are to wear-and making into a theology all it's own.  So women learn to deal with it.  The hard part is when fashion dictates that lengths are so short you can see a woman's navel-oops word picture there *be alert*  or when skirts are hardly even made anymore unless they are the business suit skirts that look  freaky in church.  And they arent' long either.  And I will tell you this.  I worked in  the children's departments at many churches over the years.  The men that work in there can use the opportunity to look at little girls in their shorts and skorts, which are always wayy too short!  I ran off one pedophile, and come to find out he was kicked out of 3 other churches.  So, modesty for our little girls isn't really a bad thing when you think about it.
As far as the Brittany skirt, bad example.  The western one, well that's another story.

I'm glad you ran off one pedophile, the amazing part about that was that you didn't chop his head off.

A lot of parents think that dressing your little girls in short skirts is okay, because who's going to look at them, they're just little, right? WRONG! I've seen so many older men checking out 5 year olds with mini skirts on, even teenaged males! I also see these 10 year old girls walk around with tiny skirts too, and somtimes they look like they're 12 or 13. Many little girls have been abducted by these creaps.

I agree with you,calligraphqueen. Modesty for our little girls isn't a really bad thing when you think about it.

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« Reply #89 on: May 06, 2006, 12:13:37 AM »

There was a "modest clothing" site for little girls called "daddy's little princess," and I'm sorry, that just creeps me out!

OK, this is the last link I post! (HONEST!) But this one is SO weird
http://plainlydressed.bravepages.com/index.html  
1.) I thought Amish women made their own clothes
2.) Actually, I think these peopel are Seventh Day Adventists.
3.) Check out why celebrating Easter means "collaboration with the Beast" or some crazy stuff.

This is the side of the "modesty question" that I can't stand.
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« Reply #90 on: May 06, 2006, 12:23:13 AM »

I've seen so many older men checking out 5 year olds with mini skirts on, even teenaged males!

I hate it when ppl say that! Maybe, just maybe, these guys are not "checking out" anybody or anything. Maybe the really short skirts as u pointed out has caught their attention and so they wonder "hmmm....thats kinda short for a 5 year old girl-esp in church". Teen males do check out other young adult females, but I certainly hope not 5 year olds!
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« Reply #91 on: May 06, 2006, 12:31:03 AM »

That site says that they *are* SDAs.  But they could be on the fringes.  Re the clothing, it could well be that not all Amish women sew, and they do say that they have Mennonite clothing as well. The variety of caps, bonnets, head coverings shows that.  The styles are different depending on what branch of Amish or Mennonite or other "Old Order" church a woman belongs to.  Another part says that some of the clothing is *made* by Amish women, so it could be a home industry. ÂÂ


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« Reply #92 on: May 06, 2006, 01:07:02 AM »

I'm glad you ran off one pedophile, the amazing part about that was that you didn't chop his head off.

A lot of parents think that dressing your little girls in short skirts is okay, because who's going to look at them, they're just little, right? WRONG! I've seen so many older men checking out 5 year olds with mini skirts on, even teenaged males! I also see these 10 year old girls walk around with tiny skirts too, and somtimes they look like they're 12 or 13. Many little girls have been abducted by these creaps.

I agree with you,calligraphqueen. Modesty for our little girls isn't a really bad thing when you think about it.

So the problem with pants is?
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« Reply #93 on: May 06, 2006, 12:05:40 PM »

There was a "modest clothing" site for little girls called "daddy's little princess," and I'm sorry, that just creeps me out!

Why?

As to the person who said they've seen men look at 5 year olds with a short skirt on: so what? Why are you suspicious of that? A lot of people like looking at cute children, it brings them joy, there's nothing untoward about it. Or they may have been looking at the child disaprovingly because they were making noise or being naughty?

I think it's really sad people are so suspicious of others' motives. I am all for women dressing modestly in church, but children should dress and be treated like children. I wouldn't expect a 5 year old to have a headscarf on throughout a service, even if you got one on their head it would normally be taken off in 5 minutes! And as for dressing them in long skirts so that men won't look at them, that's really sick that people would even think of that! To anyone who does this; what do you do on the beach, do you dress your babies in long dresses etc there to? Or is it just going to church that makes you feel like everyone around you is a pervert? (if so why are you still going?/why not change parishes?)
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« Reply #94 on: May 06, 2006, 01:03:29 PM »

In a number of cultures that I have read of, young girls and maidens have uncovered hair/different hair styles from adult women either married or of marriable age, while to cover it is a mark of being mature or married.  So to put a scarf on a baby or small girl is to dress them in clothing that carries a meaning that is not appropriate to their age.  It might be compared to putting a little girl in the US into a dress that would only be appropriate on a grown woman, a "little black dress" or an evening gown or something like that.  Is the unspoken message being given that the little girl is somehow "mature" I wonder and some people don't realize what some clothing means *in context*?

Following along to my previous post in this thread, "Does a garment have a ritual meaning or a specialize message assigned to it by the culture it comes from?"  Or another way of putting it "What are the semiotics, the messages or meanings in the context of a culture?"  

The Kimono in Japan, while basically the same cut for everyone, does have some age variations.  Girls up to early/mid teens who are unmarried wear kimono with "furisoda" that is to say long swinging sleeves.  An adult woman wearing such a garment would either be seen as "dressing younger" or maybe in costume for something like the "Setsubun" festival. It would not be worn for everyday or formal occasions.  A woman's kimono has shorter sleeves, shorter in that they got to the wrist but do not have the long dangling sort of "pocket" on the portion covering the lower arm.

 Little girls and teens wear kimono in bright colours and patterns.  The older a woman gets the more subdued and darker and more limited is the colour palette of her kimono.  To dress a little girl in a kimono style and colour for an older woman would be jarring and incongruous and send a very strange message.

Similarly, for an apprentice Geisha a "Maiko" there is a certain style with the obi hanging down, long swinging sleeves in very bright lively colours and patterns along with special high clogs and ornate hair decorations.
For an example see here:
http://students.washington.edu/asg/photos/Kyoto-1/pages/Maiko%20makeover.htm
 When she finishes her apprenticeship and "turns her collar" she wears different styles, colours and hairstyles that say "Adult" and "Geisha". Here is an example:
http://www.immortalgeisha.com/gallery_colour_geisha.php?id=35

The book "Kimono" by Liza Dalby is an excellent reference work that looks at what clothing means and how things change over time.

Ebor




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« Reply #95 on: May 06, 2006, 03:35:37 PM »

Seeing as how I am a victim of a sexual predator myself, I think there is something within my spirit that recognizes THAT kind of look. But I don't think you have to be a victim to feel that trouble in your spirit when something like this is going on. when a grown man positions himself to look at the lap area of a little girl, sitting rather umm...casually, in a short skirt you just KNOW. When he starts staring glassy eyed and breathing funny, you really know. The ped. at our church would position himself to look at the girls he had scoped out as being the least modest.  And little girls don't always sit in ways that protect their bodies.  I had to take off my uniform, which was worn over a shirt, and drape it over little girls legs.  I would look right at him when I did it, and he would squirm.  He would just move around the room to view someone else.  I spent more time protecting the girls from him than teaching.  Once I caught him cornering a little 5yo from my class in a storage area.
You just know, deep within you, that look that isn't "a child bringing someone joy"  You just know.  It still makes me so mad to think of it.  Other people noticed it and were uncomfortable, but said nothing.  The pastor of that church still won't speak to me, as he was too cowardly to do anything.  I followed the proper chanels of authority but it was all I could do not to shoot him.  And I used to shoot in competitions so I would not have missed Shocked

That is why I don't have a problem with pants and leggings.  Perversion is accepted now, what with porn being free over the net.  Pedophiles aren't content long to just look.  Plus, I hate to have a crawling baby in a dress or skirt, or when they are learning to walk-then they trip and fall and bust their lip all the way through.  Practicality, modesty, and a pure heart are what's required for dressing today.  Cultural stigmas or requirements, or man made regulations about cape dresses and islamic garb can be taken with little regard.
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« Reply #96 on: May 06, 2006, 03:45:39 PM »

I think people are part right. Many men just look at kids for innocent reasons. I often admire innocently how cute the little kids are at Church.

With that said, however, experiencing also how a few people I knew turned how to be pedophiles, keep in mine, completely harmless ones, who have fought the urge quite well, and know it's evil. The idea of covering up little kids, is not completely insane. Certainly this is up to the discernment of the parents. But for people to make out like the idea of attraction to little children is completely rare, and only big weirdos have it, shows an ignorance on the issue.

Also, teaching kids from a young age how to dress in Church, is a very good idea. It instills proper behaviour from a young age.
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« Reply #97 on: May 06, 2006, 04:30:05 PM »

I hate it when ppl say that! Maybe, just maybe, these guys are not "checking out" anybody or anything. Maybe the really short skirts as u pointed out has caught their attention and so they wonder "hmmm....thats kinda short for a 5 year old girl-esp in church". Teen males do check out other young adult females, but I certainly hope not 5 year olds!

Yes, they were "checking out" these girls. How do i know? Because i over heard them talking sexually about these tiny ones. It's disgusting.

So the problem with pants is?

The problem with pants? It shows the outline of the womens body, revealing the shape of the front and specially the back.
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« Reply #98 on: May 06, 2006, 04:35:08 PM »

The problem with pants? It shows the outline of the womens body, revealing the shape of the front and specially the back.

So, God is just so bad!

Personally, viewing this beauty makes me THANK GOD! Bless him for his kindness.
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« Reply #99 on: May 06, 2006, 05:49:03 PM »

Tom S

What are you thanking God for???

Would it surprise you that it is a sin to even LOOK at a woman with an eye of interest in her not to mention a thought?

Maybe you might be.

Are you familiar with Holy tradition?

Maybe not.

We all must follow what was taught to us. The early faithful had a true way of representing to the world the community of God (The Church). Now men and women today are so worldly. Fashion and freedom is the order of the day.....thus this debate. This would not have been a question even 100 years ago not to mention 2000. Women' style today is lude and discusting. Particularly in America and America oriented societies.

The scripture states that we are not to encourage or cause or play any part in the sins of the believers or those outside of the faith. Women and men must be contious of this.

Women and MEN are to be modest and respectful to God and His Holy traditions which have come to us to this present day.

Men are not to be in the Church with arms out, shirt open wide, shades or with a Nicks Jersey on.

It goes both ways.
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« Reply #100 on: May 06, 2006, 06:53:35 PM »

The "Old Tradition" - for those who wish to pay attention, is that the men wore the things most resembling "dresses" or skirts, and the women wore something that more resembles pants.  Text without context.  If a woman is wearing non-skintight pants, then she isn't leading the man into any more temptation than he leads himself; the same guy can and will have fantasies even if she's wearing the most conservative dress/skirt.
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« Reply #101 on: May 06, 2006, 08:34:04 PM »

So, God is just so bad!

Personally, viewing this beauty makes me THANK GOD! Bless him for his kindness.


Lord have mercy.

Tom S

What are you thanking God for???

Would it surprise you that it is a sin to even LOOK at a woman with an eye of interest in her not to mention a thought?

Maybe you might be.

Are you familiar with Holy tradition?

Maybe not.

We all must follow what was taught to us. The early faithful had a true way of representing to the world the community of God (The Church). Now men and women today are so worldly. Fashion and freedom is the order of the day.....thus this debate. This would not have been a question even 100 years ago not to mention 2000. Women' style today is lude and discusting. Particularly in America and America oriented societies.

The scripture states that we are not to encourage or cause or play any part in the sins of the believers or those outside of the faith. Women and men must be contious of this.

Women and MEN are to be modest and respectful to God and His Holy traditions which have come to us to this present day.

Men are not to be in the Church with arms out, shirt open wide, shades or with a Nicks Jersey on.

It goes both ways.

AMEN!! â€Â
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« Reply #102 on: May 06, 2006, 08:39:56 PM »

Question: do "appreciating beauty" and "lust" necessarily equal one another?  

Can a man appreciate the beauty in a woman (not sinful) without lust (which is the sin)?  It's an honest question seeking an honest answer.  If the answer is "no" - then the church should be segregated women from men (and, as GiC pointed out to me in casual conversation, maybe even to a further extreme with dividers in between them - like what St. John Chrysostom did).  If the answer is "yes" then the impetus lies on the man not to sin.  If a woman is wearing a pantsuit or khakhis or something like that (i.e. not skin-tight), then it is up to the men to clean their thoughts, for the woman is conforming to what society states is non-revealing/conservative dress. (and if you want to argue that societal standards are irrelevant, then you lose the pants argument a second time, for when the canon was written men didn't wear pants but women did.)
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« Reply #103 on: May 06, 2006, 08:44:22 PM »

If the answer is "yes" then the impetus lies on the man not to sin.

So Satan really isn't a sinner, it's just we who decide to sin to no fault of Satan, who is just going about his daily tempting and caught in the middle?
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« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2006, 08:48:18 PM »

Can a man appreciate the beauty in a woman (not sinful) without lust (which is the sin)?  It's an honest question seeking an honest answer.  If the answer is "yes" then the impetus lies on the man not to sin.  

So Satan really isn't a sinner, it's just we who decide to sin to no fault of Satan, who is just going about his daily tempting and caught in the middle?

I fail to see the relevance of your comment.  Please elaborate.
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« Reply #105 on: May 06, 2006, 09:07:12 PM »

I fail to see the relevance of your comment.  Please elaborate.

The relevance is that the tempter is responsible too, not just the person who falls into sin. So, we can argue what the penalties are for those who tempt others by their choice of clothing, but we cannot deny they share the guilt in some way. It is not just the job of the man not to sin, then, but also of the women not to tempt.
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« Reply #106 on: May 06, 2006, 09:57:19 PM »

The relevance is that the tempter is responsible too, not just the person who falls into sin. So, we can argue what the penalties are for those who tempt others by their choice of clothing, but we cannot deny they share the guilt in some way. It is not just the job of the man not to sin, then, but also of the women not to tempt.

If we kill someone is the victim guilty? If we commit gluttony is the chef or food to blame? One must take responsibility for their own sins, especially if that which is good and right and beautiful manifests itself and you use it as on occasion to sin. Lust is the fault of the one who lusts alone, it is they who, single-handedly, pervert that which is good and beautiful. The virtue of beauty is not negated by one's passions nor is beauty responsible for the decadence of another.

'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
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« Reply #107 on: May 06, 2006, 10:04:32 PM »

The act of temptig someone can occur in two ways: voluntary and involuntary.  BUt some are able to be tempted without much action by an outside force.  As I said earlier, if a woman is wearing pants that are not skin-tight, then the "curves" of her body are relatively well hidden.  One can barely see more than if she were wearing a skirt.  If this is the case, she is not going out of her way to tempt anyone - and if one then is tempted, they've done a good enough job of miring themselves in sin that they probably would have also been tempted if she wore a skirt or a moo-moo.

A big issue i have with the pants/skirt discussion is that an inordinate amount of guilt and blame is placed on the observed, and not enough of the observer - and this I consider a cultural phenomenon of shifting blame.  In the end, if the observer does not will to fall into temptation, then they will not sin.  The Temptor (Satan) may try and tempt, but they will resist.  Even if a woman makes a conscious attempt to tempt, s/he will resist.

So modesty in dress does not actually come down to pants/skirt, then, but a) an effort by the observed not to wear things culturally considered to be flashy, sexy, or the like, and b) an effort by the observer to take responsibility and not allow themselves to succum to the temptations out there.
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« Reply #108 on: May 06, 2006, 10:06:12 PM »

If we kill someone is the victim guilty? If we commit gluttony is the chef or food to blame? One must take responsibility for their own sins, especially if that which is good and right and beautiful manifests itself and you use it as on occasion to sin. Lust is the fault of the one who lusts alone, it is they who, single-handedly, pervert that which is good and beautiful. The virtue of beauty is not negated by one's passions nor is beauty responsible for the decadence of another.

'Beauty is truth, truth beauty,—that is all
    Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.'

All these questions make assumptions, that the victim wasn't involved, and the chef wasn't trying to tempt, etc. They may very well have been guilty in some way; this logic doesn't require them to be guilty, though. But anyways, how in the the world do you reconcile this with Satan? Are you really teaching that he is doing God's work by tempting people?
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« Reply #109 on: May 06, 2006, 10:08:14 PM »

So modesty in dress does not actually come down to pants/skirt, then, but a) an effort by the observed not to wear things culturally considered to be flashy, sexy, or the like, and b) an effort by the observer to take responsibility and not allow themselves to succum to the temptations out there.

I agree 100% with that, though I might add that we must also remember the sub-culture that we have in the Church.
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« Reply #110 on: May 06, 2006, 10:09:33 PM »

The thought of Lust is our fault; Satan's fault lies in his tempting us into lust.  But he cannot make us lust, we must make the decision to lust - and therefore the culpability for lust is ours.  If condemnations are being handed out for being the temptor, then most of the time Satan has help.  But a woman wearing clothing considered fairly conservative within the society, and that is not trying to flaunt herself, is not actively trying to tempt, and therefore blame should be taken off her.
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« Reply #111 on: May 06, 2006, 10:12:14 PM »

The thought of Lust is our fault; Satan's fault lies in his tempting us into lust.  But he cannot make us lust, we must make the decision to lust - and therefore the culpability for lust is ours.  If condemnations are being handed out for being the temptor, then most of the time Satan has help.  But a woman wearing clothing considered fairly conservative within the society, and that is not trying to flaunt herself, is not actively trying to tempt, and therefore blame should be taken off her.

Of course, I agree. Remember I haven't taken a side of either pants or skirts though Wink
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« Reply #112 on: May 06, 2006, 10:15:43 PM »

True.  Didn't mean to get all uppety.
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« Reply #113 on: May 07, 2006, 01:38:22 AM »

It's the sort of discussion that makes me think how great it would be to be a man.  Men's clothing is so simple, and except for the ties so comfortable.  Do you guys know how hard it is to try to dress nicely, decently, and modestly, with budgets that don't stretch far enough (women's clothing is expensive!), with the sort of torturous shoes that are available for women, finding things that are the right color and cut, etc. etc.?

I'm not trying to garner any sympathy.  Just a reminder to be understanding that it's not easy.  The added pressure to try to think what every man you encounter is going to think of what you're wearing...  burlap bag, anyone?
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« Reply #114 on: May 07, 2006, 08:17:09 AM »

All these questions make assumptions, that the victim wasn't involved, and the chef wasn't trying to tempt, etc. They may very well have been guilty in some way; this logic doesn't require them to be guilty, though. But anyways, how in the the world do you reconcile this with Satan? Are you really teaching that he is doing God's work by tempting people?

That's an entirely different issue, but I believe I addressed it in the 'Is hell eternal' thread.
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« Reply #115 on: May 07, 2006, 09:13:18 AM »



That is why I don't have a problem with pants and leggings.  Perversion is accepted now, what with porn being free over the net.  Pedophiles aren't content long to just look.  Plus, I hate to have a crawling baby in a dress or skirt, or when they are learning to walk-then they trip and fall and bust their lip all the way through.  Practicality, modesty, and a pure heart are what's required for dressing today.  Cultural stigmas or requirements, or man made regulations about cape dresses and islamic garb can be taken with little regard.

Perversion is being accepted?  I'm sorry, I truly empathize with that situation, and someone SHOULD do something, but judging is not the way to go.  What if a prostitute were to enter the church?  Would you hide your men and children?  Christ didn't do that, you would try to help the person.  Maybe someone should try to help this guy, that's what church is all about, being there for one another....please forgive me if I insult...
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« Reply #116 on: May 07, 2006, 09:18:54 AM »

Tom S

What are you thanking God for???

Would it surprise you that it is a sin to even LOOK at a woman with an eye of interest in her not to mention a thought?

Maybe you might be.

Are you familiar with Holy tradition?

Maybe not.

We all must follow what was taught to us. The early faithful had a true way of representing to the world the community of God (The Church). Now men and women today are so worldly. Fashion and freedom is the order of the day.....thus this debate. This would not have been a question even 100 years ago not to mention 2000. Women' style today is lude and discusting. Particularly in America and America oriented societies.

The scripture states that we are not to encourage or cause or play any part in the sins of the believers or those outside of the faith. Women and men must be contious of this.

Women and MEN are to be modest and respectful to God and His Holy traditions which have come to us to this present day.

Men are not to be in the Church with arms out, shirt open wide, shades or with a Nicks Jersey on.

It goes both ways.

Last time i checked dualism was a heresy.  The body is no longer evil people!  Remember...that one guy, Christ, he was human too....he kind of Resurrected, you know...brought us back to the state of original Adam....anyone?  
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« Reply #117 on: May 07, 2006, 02:00:16 PM »

Question: do "appreciating beauty" and "lust" necessarily equal one another?  

Can a man appreciate the beauty in a woman (not sinful) without lust (which is the sin)?  It's an honest question seeking an honest answer.  If the answer is "no" - then the church should be segregated women from men (and, as GiC pointed out to me in casual conversation, maybe even to a further extreme with dividers in between them - like what St. John Chrysostom did).  If the answer is "yes" then the impetus lies on the man not to sin.  If a woman is wearing a pantsuit or khakhis or something like that (i.e. not skin-tight), then it is up to the men to clean their thoughts, for the woman is conforming to what society states is non-revealing/conservative dress. (and if you want to argue that societal standards are irrelevant, then you lose the pants argument a second time, for when the canon was written men didn't wear pants but women did.)

It's okay to appreaciate the beauty of a person, but when those dirty thoughts come to the head, then you should try to fight those thoughts and pray in your head. For that is lusting, and lusting is a sin.
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« Reply #118 on: May 07, 2006, 02:09:22 PM »

Perversion is being accepted?  I'm sorry, I truly empathize with that situation, and someone SHOULD do something, but judging is not the way to go.  What if a prostitute were to enter the church?  Would you hide your men and children?  Christ didn't do that, you would try to help the person.  Maybe someone should try to help this guy, that's what church is all about, being there for one another....please forgive me if I insult...

No you don't insult.  I truly believe that more perversion is accepted or tolerated now, than say...even 20 years ago.  The same older man that will yell at a woman for dressing innapropriately can go in secret to view porn, and no one will ever know.  There is such a double standard, and so much hypocrisy.  Women have so much crud to put up with, especially if they are a convert from protestantism, the clothing issue is but one factor.
I believe in scripture it says God gives some men over to their reprobate mind.  this man in our church was literally pounding his grand dd's on his lap in order to excite himself, IN CHURCH.  There is no help there, and if I had tried to help...I would have gone overboard.... Shocked  This was a prot church, and so much is just swept under the rug even though it's a glaring offense.  If someone's heart is repentent and they show up at church searching for God's grace that's totally different.  This guy wasn't looking for help, he was looking for victims.
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« Reply #119 on: May 07, 2006, 05:03:47 PM »

calligraphqueen,

Your situation is really uneblievable.  The thing is, I feel that we have so little faith in Christ these days that we feel like we can do nothing.  Yet, with the faith of a mustard seed...

I completely agree about the double standard with women.  It really sucks.  The thing is though, most women I know never stick up for themselves.  And when a guy acts like an idiot they just roll their eyes and move on.  Maybe they should try educating these guys?  

I know that most men do not react well to being shut down by anyone, especially a woman, but that's what church is all about, learning from each other.  If he can't suck it up and take it, like a man, then that's his problem.  The least the woman could do is be educated and know in her heart the truth.  Remember, it was a woman who sat at the feet of Christ and listened...

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« Reply #120 on: May 07, 2006, 11:12:22 PM »


 Remember, it was a woman who sat at the feet of Christ and listened...


Amen to that! Also a woman who proclaimed the Resurrection.. one would think that the church would insist on a female singing the Paschal stichera during Anastasi service... I mean they use little girls for mirofiores... but somehow a female chanting the stichera would be so apropos  ...  Just another example of women making an amazing discovery... and having men doubt it first and then  take it over like it was their discovery...
I like the line from My Big Fat Greek Wedding.. a man may be the head, but the woman is the neck and points the head in the right direction..!

In XC, Kizzy
 
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« Reply #121 on: May 08, 2006, 10:33:37 AM »

Remember, it was a woman who sat at the feet of Christ and listened...

But more importantly, the modest woman was in the kitchen cooking and serving the men !  Grin
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« Reply #122 on: May 08, 2006, 11:01:52 AM »

Seb1389

What are you talking about?

What do you mean when you say "that Guy" and "sort of resurrected"?

Am I to understand that you are referring to Christ?

If you are than you are a sad case.

If you are not than you have totally confused me.

Also:
The Body we all live in IS sinful from birth. That is scripture; not opinion.
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« Reply #123 on: May 08, 2006, 11:32:02 AM »

Also:
The Body we all live in IS sinful from birth. That is scripture; not opinion.

Scripture is also opinion and cannot be removed from the time and culture in which it was written.
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« Reply #124 on: May 08, 2006, 11:59:10 AM »

Tom, please tell me you are being facetious...  I am going to assume so.
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« Reply #125 on: May 08, 2006, 12:00:03 PM »

Tom, please tell me you are being facetious...  I am going to assume so.
No. Sorry, I am not.
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« Reply #126 on: May 08, 2006, 12:07:31 PM »

Good point Serb!  The Orthodox church honors it's women and always has.  However, in the prot sector, women have to go through different chains of command.  What i saw going on in my former church wasn't always seen by the men because they rarely worked with the children. IT wasn't manly enough you know...  So I had to go to my husband, who had to go to the preacher, who argued that it wasn't happening (even though he was upstairs postulating and preaching his own version of Christianity the whole time).  The pastor ignored it, so it got worse, my dh went back to him with a couple more parents who begrudgingly came with him.  The chain protected the predator.  The pastor finally made my dh confront this old geezer in his office, while he sat there and said nothing.  The whole thing was a wake up call to my dh that things were not right in protestant land, which headed him towards Orthodoxy later on.  So I guess there is one good aspect to it all!
I think many men are programmed to think anything a woman says is irrelevant anyway, simply because they aren't men.  I can tell my dh something, and he comes home a week later with the same info he heard from a guy at work thinking he's got something new. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #127 on: May 08, 2006, 12:17:45 PM »

Well then Tom, you must also remember that Christ commended the woman at his feet, not so much the woman slaving away in inferiority in the kitchen.  modesty had nothing to do with it.  The story is used frequently to remind women, even in the prot world, that we get too caught up in being busy little inferior slaves thinking it makes us righteous that we fail to just be still and listen to our God. Of course many a man, like yourself, twist it to mean that all females are inferior to men and should service them diligently.  NO wonder the suicide rate is so high amongst stay at home moms.  All people will throw off the bonds of slavery placed on them, one way or another, because it's not how God created us to function.  Where your opinion has anything to do with modesty I have no idea.  Neither Mary or Martha were married with husbands to regurgitate Christ's teaching to them later.
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« Reply #128 on: May 08, 2006, 12:38:27 PM »

Also:
The Body we all live in IS sinful from birth. That is scripture; not opinion.

It's Gnosticism and, thus, Heretical.
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« Reply #129 on: May 08, 2006, 12:45:26 PM »

NO wonder the suicide rate is so high amongst stay at home moms.

Nonsense.
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« Reply #130 on: May 08, 2006, 12:59:39 PM »

Serb 1389

Educate men about what?

You speak as if men and women just came into being this morning. And formed as two seperate and distinct creations.

We have been relating with each other since Adam. In Adam was both man (of course) and woman.

Woman are part man. That is scripture; not opinion.

Man must teach woman like God commanded but did not and still are not. Adam being the first patriach as well as father and mother of Creation qualifies this; again according to scripture not opinion. When Eve failed to follow instruction sin entered the world. The body became sinful as such they clothed themselves in shame in the face of God.

We still cloth oursleves today....Thus heres where it all begins.

Adam was resposible for Eves error and as such faced punishment even two fold since he tried to blame Eve as an excuse for his negligence.

The serpant (TEMPTOR) also suffered eternal damnation to this day.

We first wore cloths to 'cover' ourselves. God made them for us. Thus the first cloths were holy garments cause they were fashioned by God (Not Calvin Klien). This is the key reality (or metaphor if you prefer) which provides the direction and purpose of covering or clothing. The ROOT of which started with TEMPTATION.

We are to cover ourselves as if God were dressing us.

Woman should be distiguished as 'WOman' and men as 'men'...Why? Because God instructed this dress code in scripture. We may view that prior to 'cloths' Adam could see Eve was a women and vise versa and such viewing was not with lustful eyes since the body was yet still pure and innocent not knowing the difference. After eating the forbidden fruit lust entered which is temptation.

The woman regardless of the past indescretion is known as innocent & untainted to this day as a reflection of Eve before the error. THis is a forgiveness, a passionate expression by men from God that she is (woman are) still seen as NOT having made an error at all. Like a caring husband to his wife who completely remits her from any act of indescretion placing a head covering on her as a crown of purity for eternity. Like a ring on the finger symbolizes love between men and women bound in the purity of Holy matrimony (where both recieves the crown) so is the head covering on an woman is a passsionate sign of forgiveness and a re-affirmation of her former glory. Interestingly a woman is blessed three fold first by Birth she is forgiven just for being a woman thus the head covering, Second at Baptism when she is crowned with the blessing of the Holy Spirit and third Upon marriage when she recieves the crown of the Trinity permanently joining the her to her husband as ONE flesh ...... coming full circle to symbolize Adam and Eve. A women in this situattion is a walking breathing image of the Holy Trinity having worn three crowns of grace. Christ the second Adam rejoined Himself to her....the new Eve .....the Eve of the new covenant...He said "The Church is My bride and I AM the bridegroom. Understandibly God teaches men to love your wife like Christ loves the Church.

Women wear your blessing it is a great gift.

Women have not the NEED of the priesthood becasue of this. They are (women are) at rest in the faith; they do not have to carry the burden of the original sin although they are still in it. Men are subject to carry and endure the burden along with being in it thus we do not cover our heads; we do not have the crown from birth. We wear the crown of Baptism & matrimony; these crowns are filled with the blessing of God upon recieving the sacraments. Women wear a permanent crown through out hear life.
Men only wear the permanent crown upon enteing the priesthood; which is the burden of Church. Many men have died to hold up this burden. Women have not suffered for the faith in this way (other ways yes; but I am speaking of the crown or head covering).

Satan has tricked the world and made ugly the things given to us that are beautiful; that help us to apppreciate one other in spirit NOT in the flesh, NOt in temptation.

God bless women of today who are alive in the spirit of the truth and are aware of what has come down to them unto this day and have not thrown away her blessing knowing that the head covering is her crown and her feminin attire is Holy in purpose since God has a special realtionship with her. Her Long, loose garments are akin to the long garment of the clergy. This is not to say she is clergy...of course not... but that both have a special relationship with God and in the sancturary this is of utmost regard.

WE must pray for the Holy faith which has today become mared with filtyness. There are many enemies of God who walk about in the guise of good christians creating loss and damge to the Holiness we are suppose to up hold.

I fear the loss of so much Holiness with our Orthodox women. I fear for those who are purposefully (or unknowingly) supporting this loss and encouraging yet more distruction.

We need to be careful. if I have said nothing I am saying that this issue is highly spiritual and is connected to very powerful spiritual truths.

Women are the Key to our blessing.....NOT SEX objects.

They are Holy....a Blessing to the world.....Amein

 

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« Reply #131 on: May 08, 2006, 02:40:35 PM »

We first wore cloths to 'cover' ourselves. God made them for us. Thus the first cloths were holy garments cause they were fashioned by God (Not Calvin Klien). This is the key reality (or metaphor if you prefer) which provides the direction and purpose of covering or clothing. The ROOT of which started with TEMPTATION.

We are to cover ourselves as if God were dressing us.

And which culture/country/ethnic line is to define this?  Clothing is related to many things as I wrote before: Climate, work done, available materials.  Who is it that gets to declare the One Modest Way(tm)?

Quote
Woman should be distiguished as 'WOman' and men as 'men'...Why?

If you think that that is significant in the English language, you are, I'm sorry, incorrect.  Both words come from Anglo-Saxon/Old English.  "man/mann/mon" means "Person" a human being of either sex. "woman" comes from
"wif-man" that is a "female person".  "wer" means "male".  So there is no linkage of women coming from men with those words.

Quote
Because God instructed this dress code in scripture.

And what *is* that dress code?  Most of us are not dressed in "skins" I'll wager.  If God instructed this dress code, what of the many variations in human wear though the millenia?  Which of them is wrong or right?

Quote

Interestingly a woman is blessed three fold first by Birth she is forgiven just for being a woman thus the head covering,

"Forgiven just for being a woman"?!

There is something inherantly sinful or broken about being born female? 

Ebor
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« Reply #132 on: May 08, 2006, 02:53:48 PM »

 NO wonder the suicide rate is so high amongst stay at home moms.

I'm sorry, but just what statistics do you have to make such a statement?  The Suicide prevention services website says that the highest rate of suicide is among Caucasian men over 50 who are not mentally ill.  What have you read that says stay at home mothers are killing themselves, please?  That is a pretty shocking suggestion that needs to have some back-up.

From some of your other posts you seem to have had a very bad time in your former church.  May I ask what denomination it was?  It sounds like one of the more "fringe-y" kind.  Could I ask you please to not use "Prots" though?  For some it is a derogatory label.

With Respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #133 on: May 08, 2006, 04:06:29 PM »

Quote
NO wonder the suicide rate is so high amongst stay at home moms.

I totally disagree. Where did you get these statistics from?
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« Reply #134 on: May 08, 2006, 04:29:12 PM »

Ebor

Arguing is not fun!

Read the Bible.

That will conclude the need to argue.
I got my entire post you are commenting on out of Genisis.

Read it. You will see for yourself all the anwers you pose and will have your confusion cleared up.

If the Bible is not good enough. Then ignor my posts on the matter.

By the way; When I said woman were born blessed I mean with a special blessing. There is nothing else implied. Unless you want to see something more. Thats up to you.
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« Reply #135 on: May 08, 2006, 04:34:35 PM »

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Read the Bible.

Apparently it's not that simple as the book in question is used by Jews and Christians (and all the divisions thereof) and to an extent even Islam porpotes to build off the Bible. 
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« Reply #136 on: May 08, 2006, 04:39:08 PM »

Read the Bible.

I got my entire post you are commenting on out of Genisis.

Read it. You will see for yourself all the anwers you pose and will have your confusion cleared up.

The Bible just says that God clothed them. Not what the outfits looked like.

I am shooting for the idea that Eve's outfit was a halter top and a micro-mini!  Cheesy
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« Reply #137 on: May 08, 2006, 05:47:39 PM »

Ebor

Arguing is not fun!

How is a discussion in which people's theses and assertions are looked at and discussed  and questioned necessarily an "arguement"?  One is not permitted to question your meanings or assertions? 

If you are making claims and declarations about a subject why shouldn't people ask questions or suggest some ramifications of bald assertions.  And since the Bible was not originally written in English, the words used were not "man" and "woman".  So any word-play with them does not apply in the original Hebrew.

Quote
Read the Bible.

That will conclude the need to argue.
I got my entire post you are commenting on out of Genisis.

Thank you, I *have* read the Bible.  A number of times and in different translations. That's how I knew about God clothing Adam and Eve in "skins".   

Can you direct me to any particular passage in Genesis that you think states that a particular form of clothing is the only one acceptable?  Where in Genesis in "head covering" mentioned such as it the common meaning of a scarf or veil?  Where is the plain statement that women should not wear trousers because that's a "man's" garment?  Do you know what a lady from the northern India or Pakistan looks like in the kameez and trousers or any of the other examples I gave? 

You got your post, I submit, from your own interpretation of Genesis. Why should any here accept you as an authority as to what it means? 

Quote
 
Read it. You will see for yourself all the anwers you pose and will have your confusion cleared up.

I am not confused.  I am questioning your assertions and interpretations and how they apply to real human beings.
You could be interpreting Scripture through your own cultural experiences for example.  Why should that *have* to apply to others? 


Quote
If the Bible is not good enough. Then ignor my posts on the matter.

The Bible is "good enough" as it is. You and your opinions are not the Bible.  Why should your interpretation be accepted?

Quote
By the way; When I said woman were born blessed I mean with a special blessing. There is nothing else implied. Unless you want to see something more. Thats up to you.

I quoted from your own post and I will quote it again here:

You wrote:
Quote
...she is forgiven just for being a woman

This has the implication that "just being a woman" is something that is sinful , that it requires forgiveness.  Perhaps English is not your first language and you meant something else. But in this sentence it reads like the mere fact of being female is somehow a transgression.


Ebor
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« Reply #138 on: May 08, 2006, 05:48:23 PM »

The Bible just says that God clothed them. Not what the outfits looked like.

I am shooting for the idea that Eve's outfit was a halter top and a micro-mini!ÂÂ  Cheesy


That would not be much protection from the thorns and thistles.  Wink

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« Reply #139 on: May 08, 2006, 06:03:20 PM »

What book "in question"?

I only stated read the Bible and even that is even open for argument.

You noted all those who use the Holy Bible. You forgot the Branch Davidians, Charles Manson, Mormons, Moonies and an endless array of other wierdos and lunatics the world over.

This is why Orthodox Christians follow the Holy fathers and ancient Holy tradtion.

On the subject:

My post stands as I said......
Women are to wear the covering; it is a crown for her.
She should wear modest clothing long and loose as a symbol of her special relationship with God.

Christ said...."The Church is my Bride and I AM the Bridegroom". Thus Women are a symbol of the Holiness, sanctity and purity of the Church....this is a special blessing men do not have. WE can get a special blessing upon entering the preisthood for which we will then wear long loose clothing and a covering.

As for clothing styles and who is to say what is modest..... Get real and stop playing with this topic.

Greek women can wear long, loose Greek clothing, Ethiopians can (and do) wear long, loose Ethiopian clothing and so on. Each person and culture decides using local tradition or that which is common to Jerusalem and the east if you choose. Or let the local clergy set standards if that is better.

We all know that modest is not a tight skirt with a split with a tight blouse with clevage. Or tight slacks with french cut panty lines (and crack) with a belly out tight fitting shirt and huge red pumps.

If you do not have enough sense as an Orthodox Christian to no the difference than you are lost in my opinion.

And to see a woman like this is a shock to me if the woman is suppose to be Orthodox. It is even more of a shock to see her standing (Butt out) in Church dressed that way with her hair hanging down with big earings and lipstick and perfume. This is a fact today. Orthodox woman have been tricked into thinking this is being liberated or free.

It is actually sad.



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« Reply #140 on: May 08, 2006, 06:21:59 PM »

I forgot

Regarding questions about what is modest? and whos culture determines?

Just look at the average wedding dress.

Long, loose, with a covering as her crown (the Vail). ALL WOMAN AND CULTURES WEAR THE SAME THING. INCLUDING MUSLIMS. Each with its own spin but basically the same. NO COMPLAINTS

A Christian woman (or non) would kill to have the best the longest the white dress and vail at her wedding.
This tradition is the symbol I am speaking of and it still exists....although with a more worldly and materialistic intent by an large. satan strikes again...

The garment is a Holy garment (by Christian tradition) made to wear in the Church to recieve the Holy sacraments.

Are we saying that a woman should wear tight pants or a mini skirt with no vail for her wedding?

If you are you are kidding yourselves.

Woman will wear that long dress and covering....IT IS REQUIRED even though the reason is completed corrupted by many it is FASHION now; a must have for the day to be a "fairy tale" day.

case closed...
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« Reply #141 on: May 08, 2006, 06:37:34 PM »

If you do not have enough sense as an Orthodox Christian to no the difference than you are lost in my opinion.
I, for one, am certainly glad it's ONLY YOUR opinion.  That way, disagreement with you would not be a heresy.
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« Reply #142 on: May 08, 2006, 06:55:34 PM »

What book "in question"?

I only stated read the Bible and even that is even open for argument.

Argument?  How?  Your interpretation of the Bible and it's applicability to the rest of Humanity is what I question.  Is any questioning of any of your pronouncements automatically an "argument"?  Why should you not have to back up your assertions?
.
Quote
My post stands as I said......
Women are to wear the covering; it is a crown for her.
She should wear modest clothing long and loose as a symbol of her special relationship with God.

Why should we accept you as an authority? 

Quote
As for clothing styles and who is to say what is modest..... Get real and stop playing with this topic.

I assure you I am real and I am not "playing" with the topic.  Other cultures and countries have different traditions and customs.  And sometimes there are plain *Practical* reasons for a piece of clothing to exist: Protection, warmth and so forth.  Did you read any of the examples I gave? 

Quote
Greek women can wear long, loose Greek clothing, Ethiopians can (and do) wear long, loose Ethiopian clothing and so on. Each person and culture decides using local tradition or that which is common to Jerusalem and the east if you choose. Or let the local clergy set standards if that is better.

And if the local clergy set standards that are different from your dictates?  Why should what is "common in Jerusalem" (and when?  2000 years ago?  or now?  Have you been to Jerusalem?) have any control over what people are wearing in Japan or Botswana?  Different climates, different cultures, different situations.  God created alot of different people and places.

Quote
If you do not have enough sense as an Orthodox Christian to no the difference than you are lost in my opinion.

I have the "sense" to use your word, to know that this is not a "Binary" situation with only the short, tight and skimpy that you describe or wearing the equivalent of an abaya or burkha.  There is a broad spectrum of clothing in-between.  And I am not EO, nor have ever claimed to be, but I think I have some good idea of what is modest and appropriate for different situations, too.


Ebor

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« Reply #143 on: May 08, 2006, 07:09:05 PM »

The statistic I got was from a division of Focus on the Family, they were comparing women's interests and the pressures they live under. It was an exposé because someone had noticed the mental health issues that sah women face, issues their workforce counterparts don't have.  I think it was about the time we had seen Andrea Yates and several other mom's lose it.  They added in all the things that Christian women face, and the fact that SAHM's are totally cut off from society a lot of the time.  They weren't told that when they decided to become SAHM's, and their husbands remain oblivious.  I think it pointed some responsibility towards the husband in the exposé, as he is supposed to care for his wife. 
Anyway, amongst women, sahm's had the highest rate of depression and suicide.  The exact number/percentage may have changed-it was within the last few years.  It is a lonely occupation, then if you are lucky enough to be in a protestant denomination you have a lot of false theology to bear.  I am no longer protestant flavored, but I bear a lot of the scars of the false doctrine whip.  And with Orthodoxy spread out, you are very fortunate if you find a parish with other women that aren't in the AARP.
I was just a baptist, for whoever it was that asked.  But there are lots of flavors of baptists, and some are more "fringey" than others. Smiley
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« Reply #144 on: May 08, 2006, 07:26:18 PM »

I forgot

Regarding questions about what is modest? and whos culture determines?

Just look at the average wedding dress.

Long, loose, with a covering as her crown (the Vail). ALL WOMAN AND CULTURES WEAR THE SAME THING. INCLUDING MUSLIMS. Each with its own spin but basically the same. NO COMPLAINTS

There is no such thing as an "average wedding dress". Nor do all women and cultures wear the same thing. You are making another flat assertion without any documentation.  Just look at the latest copy of some magazine like "Bride" to see what some of the fashions are.  In early America you didn't have a dress just for the wedding. Clothing was made by hand and often at home and whatever a woman wore at her wedding was the style of the time and place.  It was the mid to late Victorian era that made the formal "wedding dress" popular but not for everyone and the styles varied.  Here is a link or two on the subject:
http://www.shootingstarhistory.com/wedding.html
http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/Rios062104.html
http://hec.osu.edu/people/ebradshaw/wedding/wedding_traditions.htm

Some were long.  It was the fashion for that time and place. "Loose" is another matter for some.

Quote
A Christian woman (or non) would kill to have the best the longest the white dress and vail at her wedding.
This tradition is the symbol I am speaking of and it still exists....although with a more worldly and materialistic intent by an large. satan strikes again...

Maybe some would, but not all and not historically speaking.  You are making more broad sweeping statements that you do not back up. YOu are declaring things to be true that I can find evidence that the are not necessarily so. 

Quote
The garment is a Holy garment (by Christian tradition) made to wear in the Church to recieve the Holy sacraments.

For some women it was their best dress or what would be such in the years to come. In the Orient white is the colour of mourning.  Red is the colour of joy and Chinese wedding clothing.   In Japan, the traditional costume has other meanings. The formal colour is black, but with the influence of western countries a white robe is worn over all.   It is not a 'veil' of modesty that a bride wears but a "tsunokakushi" to "hide the horns of jealousy".

Quote
Are we saying that a woman should wear tight pants or a mini skirt with no vail for her wedding?

If you are you are kidding yourselves.

No one here is saying any such a thing, therefore no one is "kidding" themselves. 

Quote
Woman will wear that long dress and covering....IT IS REQUIRED even though the reason is completed corrupted by many it is FASHION now; a must have for the day to be a "fairy tale" day.

case closed...

Required? Just because you say so?  I'm sorry, you seem to have little knowledge of real people or why they do things or real clothing and why it is what it is sometimes.   

You declare the case closed.  Your ideas or case maybe.  Why should anyone accept you as an authority, please?

Ebor
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« Reply #145 on: May 08, 2006, 07:27:23 PM »

The statistic I got was from a division of Focus on the Family...

Ahh! Looney Tunes Publishing

 
Anyway, amongst women, sahm's had the highest rate of depression and suicide.  The exact number/percentage may have changed-it was within the last few years. 

You ever heard this quote:

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics"
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« Reply #146 on: May 08, 2006, 07:35:48 PM »

The statistic I got was from a division of Focus on the Family, they were comparing women's interests and the pressures they live under.

Thank you. Was this on-line or in a publication or a radio program?

Quote
ÂÂ  
Anyway, amongst women, sahm's had the highest rate of depression and suicide.ÂÂ  The exact number/percentage may have changed-it was within the last few years.ÂÂ

No disrespect is intended, but I would need to see some actual numbers and data on that.  Too often numbers get tossed out that are not based in any kind of reality.  Things like the claim that "Super Bowl Sunday was the worst day for women getting beaten/abused by men" from a few years ago.  It was totally bogus due to misremembering and mangling what someone had said about a different subject.

Quote
It is a lonely occupation, then if you are lucky enough to be in a protestant denomination you have a lot of false theology to bear.ÂÂ  I am no longer protestant flavored, but I bear a lot of the scars of the false doctrine whip.ÂÂ  And with Orthodoxy spread out, you are very fortunate if you find a parish with other women that aren't in the AARP.
I was just a baptist, for whoever it was that asked.ÂÂ  But there are lots of flavors of baptists, and some are more "fringey" than others. Smiley

I know of some of the "fringe" congregations with "Baptist polity" that is they are basically on their own and do what they like without a chain of authority.  I respectfully suggest that not all "protestant denominations" are identical nor necessarily have the same "false theology" that you, unfortunately experienced.
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« Reply #147 on: May 08, 2006, 08:07:25 PM »

The Bible just says that God clothed them. Not what the outfits looked like.

I am shooting for the idea that Eve's outfit was a halter top and a micro-mini!  Cheesy


I doubt that's what she was wearing.  Tongue And besides, why would you shoot for that kind of an idea?
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« Reply #148 on: May 09, 2006, 09:42:58 AM »

Seb1389

What are you talking about?

What do you mean when you say "that Guy" and "sort of resurrected"?

Am I to understand that you are referring to Christ?

If you are than you are a sad case.

If you are not than you have totally confused me.

Also:
The Body we all live in IS sinful from birth. That is scripture; not opinion.


I was kidding around, and being sarcastic.  And if I WAS refering to Christ, why would it be a sad case?

 
As for clothing styles and who is to say what is modest..... Get real and stop playing with this topic.


You know, telling someone to just stop usually isn't the best way to get your point accross.  Especially on an online forum, in a country where freedom of speach is one of the highest laws of the country....just a thought...

Quote
This is a fact today. Orthodox woman have been tricked into thinking this is being liberated or free.

It is actually sad.


so are you saying that they are NOT liberated and free?  I would LOVE to see you defend that position  Wink
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« Reply #149 on: May 09, 2006, 11:17:37 AM »

Serb1389

"stop kidding around" is a figure of speech used in American vernacular. It simply implies that the person should take a more serious approach to the issue at hand. It does not mean to 'stop' as you have assumed.

Oh! and you should make note that this forum is not located in any country at all. It is virtual; existing in a world called cyber-space. Just a thought.....

I am saying that women are liberated and free if you read my post. I made no other implication.
If you think about what I said the point is that this liberation is at a price of which I make clear as well.
 
That is as much as I can say on this to you. I feel this point is already over your head and any further explanation will only increase your confusion. Or maybe the point I am making is too complex to explain within this format.

Finally; I noted "you are a sad case" since referring to Christ in the common and disrespectful way you did for me is inconcievable. In my world people are very, very careful in how we speak and use words when dealing with spiritual matters. Christ is never, EVER referred to in common or non-sensical ways.

I notice that western and western minded people and societies feel it is O.K. to refer to the Savior of the world in common ways; like in jokes, or sarcasm even along with cursings and other filthy talk. My view on this is more cultural since where I come from we have a very strong tradition which is to maintain respect for God  in all things and at all times. His name is NOT the butt of jokes and sarcastic small talk. This is frowned upon in my world. This may be fine in yours.

God is the judge as to which is best.


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« Reply #150 on: May 09, 2006, 11:33:43 AM »

Oh! and you should make note that this forum is not located in any country at all. It is virtual; existing in a world called cyber-space. Just a thought..... 

The Forum exists on a server, which exists within a particular place and time, that happen to lie within the US of A.  This is important, because the location of the server binds the forum to all applicable US state and federal laws.
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« Reply #151 on: May 09, 2006, 12:37:17 PM »

Serb1389

"stop kidding around" is a figure of speech used in American vernacular. It simply implies that the person should take a more serious approach to the issue at hand. It does not mean to 'stop' as you have assumed.


Thank you for the clarification.  I did not want to assume, which is why I asked you about what you meant.  If you would like me to ask in a different manner than the one I am using, please let me know.  I would rather have an honest answer from you than lead you to think that i'm messing around with you or something like that...

Quote
I am saying that women are liberated and free if you read my post. I made no other implication.
If you think about what I said the point is that this liberation is at a price of which I make clear as well.

That's not what you said, you said that women have been tricked.  Now, what tricked means, I wasn't sure, so I wanted you to defend your position.  I did assume that you meant something else, but this assumption was based on what you said.  If you had wanted me to get some other meaning, you should have simply said it...sorry for the mistake. 

Quote
Finally; I noted "you are a sad case" since referring to Christ in the common and disrespectful way you did for me is inconcievable. In my world people are very, very careful in how we speak and use words when dealing with spiritual matters. Christ is never, EVER referred to in common or non-sensical ways.

what would you consider "common" or "non-sensical" ways?  Also, if I were disrespecting Christ, i'm pretty sure He does not need any of us to defend Him...maybe i'm wrong though?

Quote
I notice that western and western minded people and societies feel it is O.K. to refer to the Savior of the world in common ways; like in jokes, or sarcasm even along with cursings and other filthy talk. My view on this is more cultural since where I come from we have a very strong tradition which is to maintain respect for God  in all things and at all times. His name is NOT the butt of jokes and sarcastic small talk. This is frowned upon in my world. This may be fine in yours.

If your view is cultural then you would realize that American culture is probobly very different than the culture of wherever you are from (I assume Egypt?).  Also, what about Serbian culture, which is where i'm from?  Or even more specifically Vojvodjanin culture, which is the area of Serbia that i'm from?  Because in Vojvodina seriousness doesn't exist.  Nothing is so serious that humor cannot be involved.  There are always limits to what you say, but my limits may be different than yours. 

It seems to me that you are placing your values onto me?  If this is true then i'm sorry, that's unfair.  I will be more than happy to be more respectful if you would like me to, all you have to do is ask.  Otherwise, sarcastic remarks may come out...

Quote
God is the judge as to which is best.

I agree.  So lets leave it up to Him...
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« Reply #152 on: May 09, 2006, 01:38:50 PM »

Ebor

You are all over the place....I mean Japan???
 Do I need to remind you we are talking within the confines of Orthodox Christianity?

I can care less what a women wears in Japanese culture or any other culture. People have all kinds of different meanings and styles. I saw a picture of a women in a Christian wedding getting married in a Church with white mini skirt type dress with spagetti straps and no vail. Hey...thats her business.

My point is that is not the norm.

The average wedding dress is white, long, loose with a long vail. Go look at any brides magazine. When, where are how this came ot be is not the point. The standard by however it was made is long, and flowing with the requisite vail. This is my point.

This standard is in line with my point that women are to be vailed and wear a modest garment symbolic of purity when in the Church. whoever and howevr the decision was made is not my concern. My conern is that it is in line with Church tradition.

You or I have never seen a women get married in a Church ceremony in a pair of slacks with nothing on her head.

When you get married (if your not already) you will see this for yourself.

This is the best Church tradition.

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« Reply #153 on: May 09, 2006, 02:08:22 PM »

I think Ebor's question is one of Anthropology -

Were skirts and headcoverings simply a cultural trait of Eastern Europeans that wove their way into the Church or are they inherently Christian?   
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« Reply #154 on: May 09, 2006, 02:34:14 PM »

This standard is in line with my point that women are to be vailed and wear a modest garment symbolic of purity when in the Church. whoever and howevr the decision was made is not my concern. My conern is that it is in line with Church tradition.
This may be your church's local tradition, which is very good for you and your local church.  However, why should the form (as opposed to the spirit of modesty) of your local tradition be normative for all Orthodox everywhere?
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« Reply #155 on: May 09, 2006, 02:43:17 PM »

Ebor

You are all over the place....I mean Japan???
 Do I need to remind you we are talking within the confines of Orthodox Christianity?

I can care less what a women wears in Japanese culture or any other culture.

No he's not.  There are Orthodox Churches in China and Japan - several in fact.  I think Japan is Autonomous under Moscow and sure about China (EP?).
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« Reply #156 on: May 09, 2006, 02:45:56 PM »

Ebor

You are all over the place....I mean Japan???
 Do I need to remind you we are talking within the confines of Orthodox Christianity?

You need remind me of nothing. It was in your posts that the following quotes may be found:

Quote
Women are to wear the covering; it is a crown for her.

Not "EO women" not "Christian women", just "women".

Quote
ALL WOMAN AND CULTURES WEAR THE SAME THING. INCLUDING MUSLIMS. Each with its own spin but basically the same. NO COMPLAINTS

You are the one who introduced "All women and cultures", not I.  I have provided links with information that "all women and cultures" do not "wear the same thing". ÂÂ

Quote
A Christian woman (or non) would kill to have the best the longest the white dress and vail at her wedding.

Again a sweeping assertion, that is not true over the course of history.  I did some more research, out of curiosty's sake.  In India a traditional wedding garment is either the saree or the lenhga. Non of the examples I found were white, and are often worn with the "choli" a short and closely fitting kind of blouse or top. ÂÂ
http://www.indianweddingsaree.com/sarees.asp?ig=Lehngas&pg=9
http://www.indianweddingsaree.com/Bridal_sarees.htm

Did you happen to look at any of the links I provided yesterday?


Quote
I can care less what a women wears in Japanese culture or any other culture. People have all kinds of different meanings and styles. I saw a picture of a women in a Christian wedding getting married in a Church with white mini skirt type dress with spagetti straps and no vail. Hey...thats her business.

My point is that is not the norm.

I submit that your statement of what the "norm" is, is not accurate if you actually look at what people do and wear.

Quote
The average wedding dress is white, long, loose with a long vail. Go look at any brides magazine. When, where are how this came ot be is not the point. The standard by however it was made is long, and flowing with the requisite vail. This is my point.

I think that it *is* a pertinent point, because what you assert to be the "average wedding dress" or the "norm" is historically a very recent invention and came from Europe/America.
 ÃƒÆ’‚Â
http://huntsville.about.com/od/weddings/a/weddingdresses.htm

Also, I looked at a "Brides" magazine casually. There were dresses in white, pink and ivory/oyster/off-white. ÂÂ There were many with long skirts, but some were tight and some were full and some were in-between. Most were not what I would call "flowing". ÂÂ  Many of them (maybe because it's coming into Summer in the US) were short sleeved, or sleeveless, some had low backs. ÂÂ They were not all or even most "Long and loose". ÂÂ

Quote
This standard is in line with my point that women are to be vailed and wear a modest garment symbolic of purity when in the Church. whoever and howevr the decision was made is not my concern. My conern is that it is in line with Church tradition.

"Symbolic of purity"?  Who assigns such meaning to clothing?  The people of the culture.  I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you are transfering your opinions or your cultural meanings onto humanity in general, or EO in general. ÂÂ

Quote
You or I have never seen a women get married in a Church ceremony in a pair of slacks with nothing on her head.

Meaning no disrespect, but you do not know what I have or have not seen in nearly 50 years.

Quote
This is the best Church tradition.

Again, I'm sorry, but what you are laying down as the Only Way would seem to be a tradition from *your* culture and *your* jurisdiction.  You do not seem to see that it does not apply universally.

Ebor
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« Reply #157 on: May 09, 2006, 02:49:14 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8923.msg120078#msg120078 date=1147198102]
I think Ebor's question is one of Anthropology -

Were skirts and headcoverings simply a cultural trait of Eastern Europeans that wove their way into the Church or are they inherently Christian?  ÃƒÆ’‚  

[/quote]

Exacly. Thank you.  Smiley

Because Amdetsion seems to be trying to make it a "universal" rule.  What he descibes is not even "Eastern European" in some ways.  His assertion of "Long white gown and veil" as the "norm" is not correct historically.  It's like laying modern ideas from one place over times and places where they don't belong.  That would not be a true look at the other culture.

Ebor
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« Reply #158 on: May 09, 2006, 02:50:43 PM »

No he's not.ÂÂ  There are Orthodox Churches in China and Japan - several in fact.ÂÂ  I think Japan is Autonomous under Moscow and sure about China (EP?).

Thank you, Elisha, you beat me to it.  Wink

The fact is that there are EO jurisdictions and Churches in many places that have different cultures, including Japan.

Ebor
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« Reply #159 on: May 09, 2006, 03:16:55 PM »

No he's not.  There are Orthodox Churches in China and Japan - several in fact.  I think Japan is Autonomous under Moscow and sure about China (EP?).

Metropolis of Hong Kong and All Asia - EP
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« Reply #160 on: May 09, 2006, 03:35:55 PM »

Here is a web-site for the Metropolis of Korea.  Its a little out of date, but its worth looking at.  http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&u=http://www.orthodox.or.kr/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkorean%2Borthodox%2Bchurch%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D
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« Reply #161 on: May 09, 2006, 04:23:20 PM »

Here is a web-site for the Metropolis of Korea.  Its a little out of date, but its worth looking at.  http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&u=http://www.orthodox.or.kr/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dkorean%2Borthodox%2Bchurch%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

Interesting link, thanks for sharing that with us. The Priest looks like Santa Claus, he has a warm twinkle in his eye.  Tongue
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« Reply #162 on: May 09, 2006, 04:31:57 PM »

Ebor

You stated that my point "does not apply universally".

I am a member of the Holy Universal (catholic) Apostolic Church Orthodox in the Lord. I think about everything in accordance to the teaching of the Holy Church which is the guide in my life in all matters. Therefore teachings outside the Universal Church for me are non-truths....only fact and non-fact. The idea or reality of absolute truth is judged by the Holy Church Universal-Orthodox.

THUS.....

If my point or points do not apply within the above described universiality than I have erred hugely.

If you mean that my points do not apply "universally" as in 'globally' as in around the world.....than you are right!

I noticed all your clips which you researched and I appreciate your enthusiasm. But I am speaking within the Holy Church. The resources best suited for me would have been teachings from your local church library or pastoral lectionary or teachings on the scripture from the Holy Fathers as they relate to the subject.

I have no need for the secular and non-Orthodox research you provided. I am sure it sheds light on the broader subject of what women wear and why. I am not concerned about this. This thread is about modesty in the Church not on earth. We can go on forever than

I feel sure that you and I are on two completely different pages.

Let us allow others to persue the rest of this thread without our side lining.

Thanks for the discussion...


Thanks form the discussion





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« Reply #163 on: May 09, 2006, 06:26:13 PM »

I think people are part right. Many men just look at kids for innocent reasons. I often admire innocently how cute the little kids are at Church.

With that said, however, experiencing also how a few people I knew turned how to be pedophiles, keep in mine, completely harmless ones, who have fought the urge quite well, and know it's evil. The idea of covering up little kids, is not completely insane. Certainly this is up to the discernment of the parents. But for people to make out like the idea of attraction to little children is completely rare, and only big weirdos have it, shows an ignorance on the issue.

Also, teaching kids from a young age how to dress in Church, is a very good idea. It instills proper behaviour from a young age.

May I keep my 'ignorance' all my life.

I take your point of teaching children from an early age to dress modestly in church, (good idea) however it is entirely a separate issue. If you only dress your children modestly in church in order to protect them from whoever might look at them, why only do this for church? What about the other 6 and three quarter days of the week - wouldn't they need protecting then too? ...if so then it's not teaching them to be modest 'in church' is it? It's just generally giving them a sense of dress/modesty for every day (also not a bad thing, I am only questionning the odd motive).
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« Reply #164 on: May 09, 2006, 09:04:38 PM »

I take your point of teaching children from an early age to dress modestly in church, (good idea) however it is entirely a separate issue. If you only dress your children modestly in church in order to protect them from whoever might look at them, why only do this for church? What about the other 6 and three quarter days of the week - wouldn't they need protecting then too? ...if so then it's not teaching them to be modest 'in church' is it? It's just generally giving them a sense of dress/modesty for every day (also not a bad thing, I am only questionning the odd motive).

I suppose that this cuts right to the heart of why I don't like this type of discussion - we should be dressing modestly all the time, regardless of sex or age.  This particular issue (women's modesty) is only an issue of 11 pages on this forum because we (society + us) don't expect people to dress "modestly" all the time.  This doesn't mean everyone needs to wear burkahs (I know I must have misspelled that), but we don't need to show off various areas of our bodies either (we call it the "B" rule when talking to the kids about it). 
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« Reply #165 on: May 09, 2006, 11:18:21 PM »



Just look at the average wedding dress.


An interesting custom among Indian women I heard was that the saari they picked for their wedding day would be the one they use at formal functions in the future.  Now,- saaris' probably fit for a lifetime... but forget it..my wedding dress was outgrown in the first year....as are most. too bad because it would be good to getmore use out of the expensive dress. In some other countries the women wear their national dress on their wedding day.. and that varies in style.   
As for westerners.. let's remember the white is to 'keep away the evil eye'...at least that was the original intent..
As to crowns... they are 'in' now,  girls wear them to proms...
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« Reply #166 on: May 09, 2006, 11:40:05 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8923.msg120078#msg120078 date=1147198102]
I think Ebor's question is one of Anthropology -

Were skirts and headcoverings simply a cultural trait of Eastern Europeans that wove their way into the Church or are they inherently Christian?  ÃƒÆ’‚  

[/quote]
I don't think inherently Christian..In general much of Jewish tradition was derived for health reasons:
the dietary laws because pigs were garbage eaters; circumcision to help prevent infection...covering the head probably also...to prevent lice...

Let's remember some things about ancient times.. People had head and body lice, awful teeth and breadth(led to the little fan to cover up these chompers)  and were in general covered in a fecal veneer ( my public health background here).  Covering the head and hiding the hair helps to prevent transmission.. go into a school today that has an infestation and you will see lots of head coverings.. and the boys get shaved...Actually the old french white wig was used to keep away lice... people had shaved heads underneath..

At the same time,  garments that drape down to the floor in general become unsanitary and are disease vectors... one culture to really use them were the southern US plantations mid 1800's ... and they had slaves to wash them regularly...
So, my perception on all of this is that one must consider the health issues and hygiene knowledge of ancient times... and see that alot has to do with the challenges of life in that day...
Something to consider.. with longer lives today, women enter menopause.. should be able to enter the 'bloodless' sanctuary..another law whose rationale no longer exists 100%.   However heaven knows that in ancient times women were either menstruating or hemmoraghing from childbirth... no wonder they weren't really allowed too many places... and the 40 day 'blessing' is really an outcome of that..it's for the mother..  when bleeding stops and a woman can go out in public and go to church...
 
So, in general one must look at the times of the early church to understand the rationale for what was said...
In XC, Kizzy



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« Reply #167 on: May 09, 2006, 11:42:50 PM »

so because we're cleaner now we can wear whatever we want?  I'm asking if this is your opinion, not trying to be sarcastic... Smiley
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« Reply #168 on: May 10, 2006, 01:03:55 AM »

Kizzy,

Indian women love their saris, so they want a new one for every formal occassion.  Smiley.
Though Orthodox women are laid to rest with their wedding saris.
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« Reply #169 on: May 10, 2006, 02:54:13 PM »

An interesting custom among Indian women I heard was that the saari they picked for their wedding day would be the one they use at formal functions in the future.  Now,- saaris' probably fit for a lifetime... but forget it..my wedding dress was outgrown in the first year....as are most. too bad because it would be good to getmore use out of the expensive dress. In some other countries the women wear their national dress on their wedding day.. and that varies in style.   
As for westerners.. let's remember the white is to 'keep away the evil eye'...at least that was the original intent..
As to crowns... they are 'in' now,  girls wear them to proms...
in XC, Kizzy


True, Indian women have a picked our saari for their wedding day and it would be used for the formal functions that came up in the future.  Saari's are pretty, i'm tierd of looking at all those "white gowns" not that they're ugly, they can be really pretty! Bust most of the time, too reavealing. That's why i prefer the Lengah, another Indian women custom.  Grin
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« Reply #170 on: May 10, 2006, 10:04:12 PM »

so because we're cleaner now we can wear whatever we want?ÂÂ  I'm asking if this is your opinion, not trying to be sarcastic... Smiley

No that's not what I'm saying...IMHO  the church loses credibility when trying to enforce canons that were written for a different time in history....for different reasons. For example, the original jewish reason for not eating pork.. the wormiest garbage eater in ancient times.. no longer exists as pigs are farm raised and  do not eat garbage... Circumcision by the way.. is still debated as to health benefits...In general much of the moral code- in the jewish and Christian faiths,  was established to preserve the human race from disease... i.e. promiscuity leads to multiple partners which leads to VD, and destruction of the species...so 'how can we prevent promiscuity...' was written into the canons.   As my late father said, AIDs &VD  is the universe's way-God's way-  of telling people what is wrong behavior..and will lead to destuction of the species.... may his memory be eternal.

Overall, remember when the canons were written it was believed that men had zero  capability of self restraint when in the presence of a woman...and this would therefore lead to promiscuity and disease...and women were automatically viewed as the guilty temptress just for being in the room... the Holy Fathers would probably shudder at men and women studying in a library together unsupervised...but they can do this and behave...being able to have self restraint... no matter what the other person is wearing... is good evolution... 

 In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #171 on: May 11, 2006, 02:04:50 PM »

Kizzy,

Ok, so how does what you said inform the question as to modesty?  If we are living in a different context today does that mean we should or even CAN be immodest?  Or does it, rather, call for a different kind of modesty (or different definition)...??
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« Reply #172 on: May 11, 2006, 10:06:30 PM »

We should still be modest in our dress and behavior...using modern modest dress - and it is still blatantly clear what is immodest and sexually suggestive dress today...  my preference is modesty in clothes and behavior all the time- that is how I raise my children, but definitely in church...and a head covering is not necessary to be modest...just think of a bikini clad girl with a huge sunhat...

I must say I was lucky enough to send my son to an RC high school.. the uniform avoided all those daily battles I was expecting...but as a counterexample, at school functions... like sports banquets- with parents in attendance, some of the kids showed up disgraceful.. skirts so short their panties show, necklines plunging and boobs pushed up...butts showing on the guys... and the parents looking worn out.. like 'this outfit is the least of my worries..'

in XC, Kizzy
 
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« Reply #173 on: May 11, 2006, 10:17:02 PM »

May I keep my 'ignorance' all my life.

I take your point of teaching children from an early age to dress modestly in church, (good idea) however it is entirely a separate issue. If you only dress your children modestly in church in order to protect them from whoever might look at them, why only do this for church? What about the other 6 and three quarter days of the week - wouldn't they need protecting then too? ...if so then it's not teaching them to be modest 'in church' is it? It's just generally giving them a sense of dress/modesty for every day (also not a bad thing, I am only questionning the odd motive).

I see your point here and i agree. I think children should be taught how to dress modestly from a early age, not only for Church, but for every day life.
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« Reply #174 on: May 11, 2006, 10:21:03 PM »

No that's not what I'm saying...IMHO  the church loses credibility when trying to enforce canons that were written for a different time in history....for different reasons.

How can you be sure what those reasons are?
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« Reply #175 on: May 12, 2006, 12:06:26 AM »

The history of public health issues is  documented... pigs were bad and dangerous to eat, venereal disease was known for a long time to be  a result of promiscuity- and was one of the factors in the demise of the Roman Empire...Christianity was born in a world of filth, homosexuality,incest, child sex ( the ancient Roman emperors had their little boys and then they drowned them when done) , and immorality- these were mainstream in society-  Christianity showed people the way for moral living and sacred marital relations that preserved the human race . It  brought forward the message that human life is sacred and must be protected... There is no question that the moral code was written specifically for this purpose..to bring the world closer to God and out of the gutter.   

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« Reply #176 on: May 12, 2006, 12:40:55 AM »

The history of public health issues is  documented... pigs were bad and dangerous to eat, venereal disease was known for a long time to be  a result of promiscuity- and was one of the factors in the demise of the Roman Empire...Christianity was born in a world of filth, homosexuality,incest, child sex ( the ancient Roman emperors had their little boys and then they drowned them when done) , and immorality- these were mainstream in society-  Christianity showed people the way for moral living and sacred marital relations that preserved the human race . It  brought forward the message that human life is sacred and must be protected... There is no question that the moral code was written specifically for this purpose..to bring the world closer to God and out of the gutter.   

in XC, Kizzy

There are indeed health benefits to some, sure, but what about not planting seeds that have touched unclean water? There is more to the OT laws than mere health. It's about something bigger.
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« Reply #177 on: May 12, 2006, 02:53:56 PM »

Kizzy

Can you please expose the source of your understandings that you have posted?

Are these your personal observations? or the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Church?

I ask because you speak very matter-of-factly on the points you are presenting IE: Pork "was" bad, "head covering on woman "not necessary" etc.

These issues are serious.

NO question that God has established for us (Orthodox Christians or true believers) that WE are to be distinguished from all other peoples (non-beleivers or psuedo-christians). There is much on this truth  in the Bible; one is the "sheep and the goats". I expect to be able to pick an Orthodox Christian woman out of a crowd on a Manhattan street in the middle of July using my eyes first. She will be the only woman walking without a tattooed butt crack showing, and her belly and flabby "love" handles hanging out over her tight jeans.

She would be very well covered and very beautiful in her essence and energy since this is the only part of her that she reveals (her clothing emphasises this). This woman demands respect (for who she is) without asking for it. She not a Nunn of course; but has a good judgement about what is fashion and what is not. Good judgement is when a person decides to follow what is best for the larger purpose....non-selfish (God and His rightiousness first)....ones self and worldly exceptance (as God Wills it)

Is not an exemplification of God' rightiousness over self and worldly exceptance good judgement? If how you appear to others do not sell this point than what are you saying with how you look to others?

We Christians are a nation with a culture, a History and Holy tradition; woman are the back bone of this and the keepers.

Regarding head covering; women have to make a choice...the Church supports and encourages head covering on females. It is virtuous; a crown for her, a special blessing. Seeing the head coveing any other way is in my opinion a lack of understanding.

Are women (such as you) deciding to "forego" what the Church encourages? (at lease with regard to head covering?)
And if so have you figured in what new 'forego-ence' will be raised out this in the future?

How much forego-ence until Orthodoxy is simply a secular version of its former self?

Maybe their is a Church order that encourages women NOT to wear head covering. If this is so than so be it. If not; Than by what order of the Church do women today follow when they are in Church with NO head covering?

Is it just a idea women decided on their own that this is not necessary any longer?

If so; than what distinguishes an Orthodox woman from protestants and RC's? These women are clear that they are free from all the previously church grounded Holy traditions and have moved forward refusing to up-hold them any longer today going thier own way. Some have gravitated to trying to be priests, reverends, bishops, apostles, etc. This all started with one small change from the order and just spiraled out of control.

Are you willing to take this chance with the new ideas of women NOT needing to cover thier heads?


Orthodox by meaning = Ortho = Straight and Dox or 'Doxa' = word or way (for Orthodox Christians 'word' and 'way' are the same since Christ IS the Word and He Is the Way).

With this understanding where to place the idea of women NOT wearing head covering?

Is it Orthodox or a fall from Orthodoxy?

Sorry for so many questions. But your posts lead me to wonder what you are thinking. You impress me as sure of what you are saying in comparison to other posts on this thread. I however still have reservations about allot of what you are saying.

One simple answer to the whole lot of questions may be effective.



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« Reply #178 on: May 12, 2006, 03:16:10 PM »


NO question that God has established for us (Orthodox Christians or true believers) that WE are to be distinguished from all other peoples (non-beleivers or psuedo-christians). There is much on this truth  in the Bible; one is the "sheep and the goats". I expect to be able to pick an Orthodox Christian woman out of a crowd on a Manhattan street in the middle of July using my eyes first. She will be the only woman walking without a tattooed butt crack showing, and her belly and flabby "love" handles hanging out over her tight jeans.

She would be very well covered and very beautiful in her essence and energy since this is the only part of her that she reveals (her clothing emphasises this). This woman demands respect (for who she is) without asking for it. She not a Nunn of course; but has a good judgement about what is fashion and what is not. Good judgement is when a person decides to follow what is best for the larger purpose....non-selfish (God and His rightiousness first)....ones self and worldly exceptance (as God Wills it)



Amen, Amdetsion!

I know a lot of men who have said that a women who is well covered is beautiful. Beautiful because she keeps her body sacred, she has confidence and morals, a standard probably deriving from something deep, such as Orthodoxy. The women with her butt crack exposed, breasts hanging out and tight jeans is nothing more than a 'sexual object' to them, to look at.

My father always told me that a womens body is precious like a pearl, and that even a pearl is hidden in the waters and sheltering inside of a shell. Yet, it is wanted, admired and beautiful.

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« Reply #179 on: May 12, 2006, 03:53:02 PM »

(sic) venereal disease was known for a long time to be  a result of promiscuity- and was one of the factors in the demise of the Roman Empire...Christianity was born in a world of filth, homosexuality,incest, child sex ( the ancient Roman emperors had their little boys and then they drowned them when done) , and immorality- these were mainstream in society- 

Um, mainstream?  It was accepted practice in the upper classes, but to the best I can remember from Roman and Greek history in Rome it wasn't exactly dinner conversation - the public face of the patrician needed to be clean (this is why emperors who lived decadently without hiding it had little respect amongst the Senate and the people), and amongst the peasant classes this kind of decadence wasn't really present.  The plebs had a different moral fabric, one that accepted the Christian moral teaching because it was closely in line with their ideal moral life.  As for the patricians, Christianity essentially condemned their private practices, and for some it was a wake up call (for others, a reason to hate Christianity).

As always I will defer to pensataeomnia to his fresher and more in-depth knowledge of the subject.  I'm probably fudging things up since I haven't studied them in 6+ years.
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« Reply #180 on: May 12, 2006, 09:35:45 PM »

I cannot get away from this topic as of late, headcoverings that is.
What I keep seeing on here is a handful of men postulating and chewing the cud about how women are so ________.  (immodest, vain, etc)

Well lets ask ourselves, to whom is our butt crack tattooed woman in NY supposed to answer?  Any of you?  Even if you are Orthodox and have all her answers?  Nope.
This very attitude is what will drive away a woman, currently dressed in a way that appalls many of you, that might seek the Truth.  How much time do any of us have to question and judge the women we see?  And unless it's YOUR specific wife that you have a vested interest in answering to God for, no woman has to answer to you guys anyway-even if she walks into your parish with her tattoo showing! Embarrassed  Even if she is scantily dressed, it's your responsibility to fight temptation to judge or lust or whatever.  That ain't what you're there to do, even if she is well shaped.
I am not saying some of these Chic's dint' know better, I am sure they do.  But I still put forth that it's not ANY of our jobs to decree to another person what they should or should not do about headcoverings.  It's such an abused issue within protestant circles, and many women you meet MAY be recovering from headcovering abuse, and many other similar abuses.  Keep to your own theosis, do not rant about cracks or hair on another person.  Women have it hard enough, and God is certainly big enough to let them know it's time to wear a stupid (my input there) doily or scarf (just so their two babies on either hip can pull it off and further distract her from worship...
Sorry, my own pet peeve there.
Anyway, my suggestion to you all is to pay attention to your own growth and life-and before you rant about someone's clothing choices or doily choice-commit in prayer before God that you are clean and pure enough to be worrying about their actions.
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« Reply #181 on: May 13, 2006, 09:57:54 AM »

I cannot get away from this topic as of late, headcoverings that is.
What I keep seeing on here is a handful of men postulating and chewing the cud about how women are so ________.  (immodest, vain, etc) 

Well, I don't think you're 100% correct in your obervation.  There are a handful of men chewing cud, there are a handful of men (I'd like to consider myself one of them) that are saying that headcoverings aren't part of the cultural context and shouldn't be required, and then there is the handful of women for and the handful against headcoverings.  It seems there are plenty of combatants on either side, with men and women taking each side.

I only note this to point out that it's not so cut-and-dry that the men are perpetuating this discussion, 'cause many of us aren't.  Not only are there pastoral considerations to be taken when deciding whether or not a woman should be wearing a headcovering (which should be the least of one's concerns in church, IMO), but there are pastoral concerns to be taken when discussing with others whether women should wear them.  There are some whose ecclesial cultural context has this idea of "modest dress" for women (that includes skirts/dresses ONLY - no pants - and headcoverings) that if you try to tell them it's not necessary they'll think you're taking their orthodoxy away from them; I've heard of very conservative Russian, Serbian, and other parishes that are like this.  So one must be considerate of the consciousness of that parish.  On the other hand, I've been to a parish where a woman will be ostracized for wearing a headcovering, as she would be seen as too submissive and whatnot; so one must be considerate of the consciousness of that parish as well.

In the end, I'll repeat what I thought before:

I suppose that this cuts right to the heart of why I don't like this type of discussion - we should be dressing modestly all the time, regardless of sex or age.  This particular issue (women's modesty) is only an issue of 11 pages on this forum because we (society + us) don't expect people to dress "modestly" all the time.  This doesn't mean everyone needs to wear burkahs (I know I must have misspelled that), but we don't need to show off various areas of our bodies either (we call it the "B" rule when talking to the kids about it). 

Unless modest dress is expected for both sexes 24/7/365, then this is a useless conversation.
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« Reply #182 on: May 13, 2006, 12:46:24 PM »

I cannot get away from this topic as of late, headcoverings that is.
What I keep seeing on here is a handful of men postulating and chewing the cud about how women are so ________.  (immodest, vain, etc)

Well lets ask ourselves, to whom is our butt crack tattooed woman in NY supposed to answer?  Any of you?  Even if you are Orthodox and have all her answers?  Nope.
This very attitude is what will drive away a woman, currently dressed in a way that appalls many of you, that might seek the Truth.  How much time do any of us have to question and judge the women we see?  And unless it's YOUR specific wife that you have a vested interest in answering to God for, no woman has to answer to you guys anyway-even if she walks into your parish with her tattoo showing! Embarrassed  Even if she is scantily dressed, it's your responsibility to fight temptation to judge or lust or whatever.  That ain't what you're there to do, even if she is well shaped.
I am not saying some of these Chic's dint' know better, I am sure they do.  But I still put forth that it's not ANY of our jobs to decree to another person what they should or should not do about headcoverings.  It's such an abused issue within protestant circles, and many women you meet MAY be recovering from headcovering abuse, and many other similar abuses.  Keep to your own theosis, do not rant about cracks or hair on another person.  Women have it hard enough, and God is certainly big enough to let them know it's time to wear a stupid (my input there) doily or scarf (just so their two babies on either hip can pull it off and further distract her from worship...
Sorry, my own pet peeve there.
Anyway, my suggestion to you all is to pay attention to your own growth and life-and before you rant about someone's clothing choices or doily choice-commit in prayer before God that you are clean and pure enough to be worrying about their actions.

I see your point, and in couple of ways i agree and many way's i disagree. Yes, women have it hard enough but it doesn't hurt to practice modesty and to keep trying for the sake of our own morality and to help our male brothers not to think lustfully.

Yes, the men should be focusing on the real thing in Church, and i agree with you that the men should pay attention to their own growth and life before ranting about some women's clothing choices. But you know what? It's very hard for males, because they're "MALES". It's hard to focus when you're a male, it's hard to hold back those thoughts even in church, when a women is prostrating in front of you with a short skirt or tight jeans on. They may try to stay focused, and not to think lustful thoughts, but it just pop's into their heads, sometimes even when they don't want those sinful thoughts there.

Oh, and i agree that the currently dressed women do appeal to the men, even our Orthodox brothers. We should pray for them, and also remember that just because those women in immodest fashions are more appealing, doesn't mean that the men 'respect' her. She will most likely just be a piece of meat to them.
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« Reply #183 on: May 13, 2006, 04:43:19 PM »

"Yes, the men should be focusing on the real thing in Church, and i agree with you that the men should pay attention to their own growth and life before ranting about some women's clothing choices. But you know what? It's very hard for males, because they're "MALES". It's hard to focus when you're a male, it's hard to hold back those thoughts even in church, when a women is prostrating in front of you with a short skirt or tight jeans on."

Tsarina,

Maybe I shouldn't jump in like this - I hope you don't mind. What you just described is a problematic issue, in more than one way.

Where should we draw the line between modest and immodest clothing? Again: if a woman happens to be curvy, should her only choice be something that resembles the Muslim jilbab? I am not trying to be ironic - I have been thinking about this issue quite a  bit lately because of this thread. Clearly, a jilbab-like dress would be the only option for some.

The reason for my using the jilbab as an example is my impression that the reason for the head covering and modest dress is not quite the same in Christianity as it is in Islam1. To me, it is clear that we should not disrespect God, but the thought of a woman being covered to protect her from the lustful looks of men sounds rather alien to me. In that case, a woman should not be allowed to be alone with a man who is not a relative.

We all sin - lust is a bigger problem for some than for others, but I was under the impression that the modest dress and head covering was mainly the result of wanting to honour and respect God. I hope you can see what I am trying to get at. Smiley

1 Sorry to be raving on about Islam, but it is a religion known for its strict rules on modesty.
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« Reply #184 on: May 13, 2006, 06:22:52 PM »

"Yes, the men should be focusing on the real thing in Church, and i agree with you that the men should pay attention to their own growth and life before ranting about some women's clothing choices. But you know what? It's very hard for males, because they're "MALES". It's hard to focus when you're a male, it's hard to hold back those thoughts even in church, when a women is prostrating in front of you with a short skirt or tight jeans on."
As a man, I know exactly what you mean.  Men are lured to lust first by what they SEE--I know I am.  It really is a struggle to keep my mind focused in Church when I SEE an attractive young lady, even if she IS dressed modestly.  Much more difficult is the struggle when she is not.  I take full responsibility to keep myself focused on Christ and keep my mind pure of satanic fantasies, but I don't think it's too much for me to ask my female acquaintances to help me in this struggle by dressing modestly.
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« Reply #185 on: May 13, 2006, 11:30:13 PM »

I see your point, and in couple of ways i agree and many way's i disagree. Yes, women have it hard enough but it doesn't hurt to practice modesty and to keep trying for the sake of our own morality and to help our male brothers not to think lustfully.

Yes, the men should be focusing on the real thing in Church, and i agree with you that the men should pay attention to their own growth and life before ranting about some women's clothing choices. But you know what? It's very hard for males, because they're "MALES". It's hard to focus when you're a male, it's hard to hold back those thoughts even in church, when a women is prostrating in front of you with a short skirt or tight jeans on. They may try to stay focused, and not to think lustful thoughts, but it just pop's into their heads, sometimes even when they don't want those sinful thoughts there.

Oh, and i agree that the currently dressed women do appeal to the men, even our Orthodox brothers. We should pray for them, and also remember that just because those women in immodest fashions are more appealing, doesn't mean that the men 'respect' her. She will most likely just be a piece of meat to them.

Self-control, for male or female, is not that difficult if it is truly desired, but impossible if not. If one does not desire self-control, then no amount of modesty on behalf of his or her neighbours will be sufficient, if one does desire it than no amount of immodesty will be of concern. The responsibility for one's own thoughts and actions lies with them and them alone, not with their neighbours. To quote Epictetus, 'Nothing outside the will can hinder or harm the will; it can only harm itself. If then we accept this, and, when things go amiss, are inclined to blame ourselves, remembering that judgment alone can disturb our peace and constancy, I swear to you by all the gods that we have made progress.'
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« Reply #186 on: May 14, 2006, 12:04:35 AM »

"Yes, the men should be focusing on the real thing in Church, and i agree with you that the men should pay attention to their own growth and life before ranting about some women's clothing choices. But you know what? It's very hard for males, because they're "MALES". It's hard to focus when you're a male, it's hard to hold back those thoughts even in church, when a women is prostrating in front of you with a short skirt or tight jeans on."

Tsarina,

Maybe I shouldn't jump in like this - I hope you don't mind. What you just described is a problematic issue, in more than one way.

Where should we draw the line between modest and immodest clothing? Again: if a woman happens to be curvy, should her only choice be something that resembles the Muslim jilbab? I am not trying to be ironic - I have been thinking about this issue quite a  bit lately because of this thread. Clearly, a jilbab-like dress would be the only option for some.

The reason for my using the jilbab as an example is my impression that the reason for the head covering and modest dress is not quite the same in Christianity as it is in Islam1. To me, it is clear that we should not disrespect God, but the thought of a woman being covered to protect her from the lustful looks of men sounds rather alien to me. In that case, a woman should not be allowed to be alone with a man who is not a relative.

We all sin - lust is a bigger problem for some than for others, but I was under the impression that the modest dress and head covering was mainly the result of wanting to honour and respect God. I hope you can see what I am trying to get at. Smiley

1 Sorry to be raving on about Islam, but it is a religion known for its strict rules on modesty.

I don't think the dress code should become the most important thing in all of Orthodoxy living, they're other aspects we all need to work on and all are equally important.  Yes, your impression is correct, we should dress modesly and cover our heads to honour and respect God. It should also be for helping other men not to lust.

If there is a curvy women, she doesn't have to wear a potato sack, skirts and nice blouses can do.  Smiley

As a man, I know exactly what you mean.  Men are lured to lust first by what they SEE--I know I am.  It really is a struggle to keep my mind focused in Church when I SEE an attractive young lady, even if she IS dressed modestly.  Much more difficult is the struggle when she is not.  I take full responsibility to keep myself focused on Christ and keep my mind pure of satanic fantasies, but I don't think it's too much for me to ask my female acquaintances to help me in this struggle by dressing modestly.

You're not alone, many men can relate to you. Of course it is more difficult when a women is not dressed modestly, that's why us women should try to help our fellow brothers.

Continue to take full responsibility to keep yourself focused, and pray, God will help you through your struggle, and remember that you're not alone and it's not easy.

You don't think it's too much to ask for the females to help our fellow brothers by dressing modestly? For some it's too much to ask for, they will argue, other's will understand, and some just realize that short skirts are appealing to men. Seriously, I've known girls who actually think, now seriously, that short skirts are not "sexual" but "CUTE". *Slaps head*

Self-control, for male or female, is not that difficult if it is truly desired, but impossible if not. If one does not desire self-control, then no amount of modesty on behalf of his or her neighbours will be sufficient, if one does desire it than no amount of immodesty will be of concern. The responsibility for one's own thoughts and actions lies with them and them alone, not with their neighbours. To quote Epictetus, 'Nothing outside the will can hinder or harm the will; it can only harm itself. If then we accept this, and, when things go amiss, are inclined to blame ourselves, remembering that judgment alone can disturb our peace and constancy, I swear to you by all the gods that we have made progress.'

One may have the true desire, but we all still get tempted and slip. Yes one has the responsibility for one's own thoughts, but that person should also pray and work on it. However, we Orthodox Christians are all striving for the same goal, so shouldn't we help each other out?
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« Reply #187 on: May 14, 2006, 04:19:24 AM »

Tsarina,

You are right; the dress code shouldn't be the most important thing. You have already heard about what role the desire for self-control plays - I do think it is important to keep that in mind. I have absolutely nothing against modest dress per se, but I just can't understand some of the arguments put forward.

 I do believe that we should help each other out, but different people might be in need of different kinds of help. I was going to write a long rant about if a nice blouse and a skirt would really do the trick if the observer had no desire to exercise self-control. I won't: you probably get my point anyway. Grin
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« Reply #188 on: May 14, 2006, 01:11:01 PM »

You don't think it's too much to ask for the females to help our fellow brothers by dressing modestly? For some it's too much to ask for, they will argue, other's will understand, and some just realize that short skirts are appealing to men. Seriously, I've known girls who actually think, now seriously, that short skirts are not "sexual" but "CUTE". *Slaps head*

We are not Gnostics (or at least I am not), sexuality and sexual desire are not wrong, lust is wrong...lust is to sexual desire what gluttony is to eating.

Quote
One may have the true desire, but we all still get tempted and slip. Yes one has the responsibility for one's own thoughts, but that person should also pray and work on it. However, we Orthodox Christians are all striving for the same goal, so shouldn't we help each other out?

You seem to have missed my point, which was that the modesty of one's neighbour will have no impact on one's self-control. Let me post that quote from Epictetus again, with italics for emphasis this time:

'Nothing outside the will can hinder or harm the will; it can only harm itself. If then we accept this, and, when things go amiss, are inclined to blame ourselves, remembering that judgment alone can disturb our peace and constancy, I swear to you by all the gods that we have made progress.'
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« Reply #189 on: May 14, 2006, 01:24:19 PM »

How far do we take this?  If a woman has a very colorful, intricately patterned scarf on, does that not call attention to her as much, if not more, than no head covering at all?  What if she has a beautiful smile?  Guess we better cover that up as well.  We can't forget the eyes.  The only solution is that women will just have to be covered from head to toe in solid black in the winter, solid white in the summer.  Hope there will be a small peephole so I don't trip!

The monkey of self-control and modesty is, or should be, on the backs of both genders.

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« Reply #190 on: May 14, 2006, 02:06:35 PM »

To change the topic a little...

All that talk on prior posts about wedding gowns, etc. and cultural dress codes got me to thinking. 

Today I accidently payed attention to the comunion prayer "Recieve me to day..." and before that part of the prayer there is a section refering to clothing:

"How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my clothing will accuse me, since it is not a wedding garment;and being bound up, I shall be cast out by the angels. In Your love, Lord, cleanse my soul and save me."

If our clothing will accuse us (and yes I know its metaphorical) then we should pay attention.  I do not think this is JUST a metaphor.  I think that its a real assessment.  Maybe i'm taking it too far though...
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« Reply #191 on: May 14, 2006, 03:15:29 PM »

We are not Gnostics (or at least I am not), sexuality and sexual desire are not wrong, lust is wrong...lust is to sexual desire what gluttony is to eating.

You seem to have missed my point, which was that the modesty of one's neighbour will have no impact on one's self-control. Let me post that quote from Epictetus again, with italics for emphasis this time:

'Nothing outside the will can hinder or harm the will; it can only harm itself. If then we accept this, and, when things go amiss, are inclined to blame ourselves, remembering that judgment alone can disturb our peace and constancy, I swear to you by all the gods that we have made progress.'

I should've put it in other words when i spoke of the girls that i mentioned thinkint that the skirts were not sexual. I mean to say, "lustful" to men.

I read your post to fast, and i did miss the point. Lols, thanks for refreshing me up on that.  Tongue

How far do we take this?  If a woman has a very colorful, intricately patterned scarf on, does that not call attention to her as much, if not more, than no head covering at all?  What if she has a beautiful smile?  Guess we better cover that up as well.  We can't forget the eyes.  The only solution is that women will just have to be covered from head to toe in solid black in the winter, solid white in the summer.  Hope there will be a small peephole so I don't trip!

The monkey of self-control and modesty is, or should be, on the backs of both genders.





There you go! Now you can't see her eyes or her smile. How's that? Oh wait, her fabric is too bright, that might bring too much attention?

I'm kidding dude.  Tongue Cheesy

To change the topic a little...

All that talk on prior posts about wedding gowns, etc. and cultural dress codes got me to thinking. 

Today I accidently payed attention to the comunion prayer "Recieve me to day..." and before that part of the prayer there is a section refering to clothing:

"How shall I, who am unworthy, enter into the splendor of Your saints? If I dare to enter into the bridal chamber, my clothing will accuse me, since it is not a wedding garment;and being bound up, I shall be cast out by the angels. In Your love, Lord, cleanse my soul and save me."

If our clothing will accuse us (and yes I know its metaphorical) then we should pay attention.  I do not think this is JUST a metaphor.  I think that its a real assessment.  Maybe i'm taking it too far though...

Thanks for sharing that, i find that rather interesting. I'm starting to think about it too now.
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« Reply #192 on: May 14, 2006, 04:54:43 PM »

I should've put it in other words when i spoke of the girls that i mentioned thinkint that the skirts were not sexual. I mean to say, "lustful" to men.

I read your post to fast, and i did miss the point. Lols, thanks for refreshing me up on that.ÂÂ  Tongue

Ah, but lust, like gluttony, is not external, it's purely internal. It is a sinful reaction towards good and beautiful things. Thus the purpose of the quote I have twice presented, lust and gluttony are both corruptions of that which is inherently good, this twisting of the good is what makes lust and gluttony vices. To condemn food for gluttony, or your neighbour, no matter how immodest, for lust is essentially gnosticism. It is blaming matter and creation for evil, but matter and creation are good, they were created good by God, evil is the result of an improper alignment of the will, it is purely internal and cannot be turned to evil by matter which is inherently good, it can only be turned to evil by itself.
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« Reply #193 on: May 15, 2006, 12:31:19 AM »

About a year ago this was a topic being brought up by women in our parish. The following is an article that I wrote for our newsletter that presents both sides of the story and what the Antiochian view of the issue is, as I understand it:

The Tradition of Women Covering their Head when They Pray

For nearly two thousand years, Orthodox women, according to the words of the holy Apostle Paul, have gone to God's church with covered heads.  Until recently, this custom has been kept by faithful women and has been handed down from generation to generation. It is a custom not only of the local churches, but also in world-wide Orthodox churches,  whether one is in the Greek, Antiochian, Russian, eastern European, or African Orthodox Church, women in the church have their heads covered.

In the United States since the 1960s ( after the Roman Catholic decision of Vatican II that women did not have to cover their heads), some Orthodox women have chosen not to follow this custom.  They have felt that it was dated custom that had no place in the practice of modern Orthopraxis. While head coverings are still the norm in the "old World", the response to this is varied by the jurisdictions in the United States.  In most Russian and Slavic Churches, head coverings are still required and a woman is not communed without a head covering. In the Greek, Antiochian, and many OCA parishes head coverings are not required and the practice is left as a pious custom that women may use or not use as they wish. Many parishes, like ours, have head coverings for women who wish them but do not require them.

SCRIPTURAL BASIS FOR WOMEN COVERING THEIR HEADS
We find the basis for this pious custom of covering the head in Sacred Scripture itself, in the New Testament. The Most Holy Virgin Mary covered her head in the holy temple from her young years. According to tradition, her veil (head covering) in the Jerusalem temple was light blue; therefore, on the feast days of the Theotokos, Orthodox clergy often wear light blue vestments. The Most Holy Theotokos wore a veil (head covering) as a sign of her humility and submissiveness to God's will, which was manifested on the day of the Annunciation. Later the Apostle Paul reiterated the importance of this when he addressed the model for men and women as they prayed: 
"Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you. But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man: and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraceth his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven. For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. The man indeed ought not to cover his head: because he is the image and glory of God. But the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man [c.f. Genesis 2-3]. For the man was not created for the woman: but the woman for the man. Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels. But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God. You yourselves judge. Doth it become a woman to pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the Church of God [i.e., if anyone want to complain about this, we have no other way of doing things, this is our practice; all the churches believe the same way]. Now this I ordain: not praising you, that you come together, not for the better, but for the worse. " (1 Corinthians 11:1-17)

According to St. Paul, Orthodox Women veil themselves as a sign that His glory, not theirs, should be the focus at worship, and as a sign of our submission to authority. It is an outward sign of our recognizing headship, both of God and man, and a sign of our respecting the presence of the Heavenly Hosts at the Divine Liturgy. In veiling, we reflect the divine invisible order and make it visible. This St. Paul presents clearly as a practice of all the churches of his time.

THE ARGUMENT AGAINST HEADCOVERINGS
Faithful Orthodox women who choose to not cover their head in church note that they believe that St. Paul was speaking as a man of his time, and that this ordinance no longer applies in modern context.  They view this often more as a custom from the old world and not one that translates well into modern life. An example given is that in the "Old Country", Orthodox married women always had a head covering on to identify themselves as married and to help them protect themselves from the elements (much like to bonnets of pioneer women in the early US history). Women who choose not to wear a head covering note that several jurisdictions in the United States no longer require this custom after 1960s choosing to leave it a practice of personal piety.  As a result of these issues they see no mandate for the continued veiling of American Orthodox women.

Often the detractors of those women who choose not to veil will judge them by saying their only reason for not veiling is that "veils and headscarves are not in style" or "I don't want to spoil my hair style". The reality is that for the faithful Orthodox Woman, who chooses not cover her head, there is no spiritual value to their covering their heads and so they choose to not cover their heads.

THE ARGUMENT FOR HEADCOVERINGS
Faithful Orthodox women who choose to wear a head covering (veil) believe that in doing so she recalls the image of her who was vouchsafed to carry the Savior Himself. If the Most Pure and Most Blessed One herself had a covered head, shall we really consider the imitation of her as foolish or old fashioned?  To these women every outward action, accompanied by the correct Christian inward disposition, brings benefit to the soul. The action of wearing a head covering is one of obedience to the Holy Scripture and the tradition of the Church. The act is so rich with symbolism to these women. They often note that it is a "submission to authority", "a surrender to God", "an imitation of the Most Holy Theotokos as a woman who uttered her "fiat!"; "the covering of my glory for His glory", and a sign of modesty and chastity. Many converts feel that the veil is a symbol of their adoption into the Holy Orthodox Church through all of the ages and the women who are their spiritual ancestors and examples.  One person interviewed noted that in all the icons of Holy women, the one common point of most is the covering of their head by veil or scarf.

Just as there are detractors for those who choose not veil, those who choose to cover the head in church have their detractors who will judge them as "old fashioned and out of touch with the modern church", or " too legalistic".  The reality is that for the Orthodox Woman, who chooses to cover her head, there is real spiritual value and identification with the Church in the covering of their head and so they cover their heads.

TO VEIL OR NOT TO VEIL?
The Antiochian Archdiocese does not require women to cover their heads in church. Our bishops have wisely determined that this act is a voluntary pious act that has meaning to one who does it and understands why they do it. They do not require it, as an act of obedience, for those to whom it has no spiritual value. The greatest danger to our spiritual life is not whether a woman chooses to veil or not veil herself when praying, but lies in our judging her decision to do so, for when we so judge we put our own  salvation in peril.

IN Christ,
Thomas


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« Reply #194 on: May 15, 2006, 03:28:24 PM »

Thomas, that's really interesting, and thank you so much for sharing that!

I once learned that back in Byzantium days women were not seen without their head scarfs at all. I'll have to look into that, i forgot where i heard or read that.

Infact, is the head covering thing a "custom" as mentioned? or "the way?"... that's a question everyone asks now a days.
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« Reply #195 on: May 16, 2006, 10:59:43 AM »

Ebor

You stated that my point "does not apply universally".

I am a member of the Holy Universal (catholic) Apostolic Church Orthodox in the Lord. I think about everything in accordance to the teaching of the Holy Church which is the guide in my life in all matters.

Since others have had some thoughts here that disagree with yours, I would suggest that your guide is your *interpretation* or that of your priest or particular jurisdiction.  That doesn't make it applicable to all EO or OO, as can be seen by some of the posts here since my last by persons who are EO and disagree with your blanket assertions.

You have now narrowed your scope since you in fact were making sweeping statements about all women or including muslim women, who by no means may be counted as following EO or OO strictures. 

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Therefore teachings outside the Universal Church for me are non-truths....only fact and non-fact. The idea or reality of absolute truth is judged by the Holy Church Universal-Orthodox.

I'm sorry. It is not clear to me what you mean by this passage.  Fact/non-fact?  "non-truths"?  To make statements of mathematics or science or even about ordinary things that are true and factual is possible whether any Church is involved at all.  What is your definition of "truth" and "fact/non-fact" please?

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THUS.....

If my point or points do not apply within the above described universiality than I have erred hugely.

Are you saying that "universal" may apply to your concept of correct in EO/OO?

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If you mean that my points do not apply "universally" as in 'globally' as in around the world.....than you are right!

I noticed all your clips which you researched and I appreciate your enthusiasm. But I am speaking within the Holy Church.

You are speaking your opinion or preference from within your jurisdiction, it seems to me.  You are not the Voice of Orthodoxy, nor is anyone here.  You made statements about "women" and did not qualify them as being "EO/OO" women.  Your assertions included muslim women.  How do you justify making such statements and saying that they apply because you are "within the Holy Church" please?

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The resources best suited for me would have been teachings from your local church library or pastoral lectionary or teachings on the scripture from the Holy Fathers as they relate to the subject.

Since I am Anglican, I don't know that you would have accepted anything from my parish/Church library or our lectionary.  For that matter, if I have some of the same books in my library that are in a parish library, why would location matter? Wink

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I have no need for the secular and non-Orthodox research you provided. I am sure it sheds light on the broader subject of what women wear and why. I am not concerned about this. This thread is about modesty in the Church not on earth.

I'm sorry.  Reading back in this thread, you are the one who was making statements about "women" and "average wedding dresses" and what women are supposed to wear without any qualifications or confines of a certain group.  You are now claiming that your statements only apply to EO/OO women.  But there are EO/OO people here who do not agree with you.  Why should anyone accept you as an authority or *your* dictum in this matter?

Research about real history and how real people did things and what real customs were or meant are "secular" or "Non-Orthodox" and may be discounted if they disagree with someone's opinion?

You say this is about 'modesty in the Church not on earth".  The "Church" isn't on earth? If this is only about women who are EO/OO then who are you to make remarks about clothing of women you see in public who are not members of your Church, please?

Ebor




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« Reply #196 on: May 16, 2006, 11:29:51 AM »

I expect to be able to pick an Orthodox Christian woman out of a crowd on a Manhattan street in the middle of July using my eyes first. She will be the only woman walking without a tattooed butt crack showing, and her belly and flabby "love" handles hanging out over her tight jeans.

The only woman?  Somehow I seriously doubt that that is true.  Roll Eyes People dress in many different ways.  One wonders why this particular dress is so noticeable to some, when there are women wearing all manner of clothing.  Perhaps one is only looking for examples to be shocked about and does not see those who are not.  Maybe exaggeration such as this is a particular "style" of arguing, but since it can be seen to not be true, how would it help to make a point, one wonders.

I have to say that in going around even in Summer, none of my neighbors are showing tattooed derrieres or anything in that region at all and none of them are EO/OO.  Neither is it common in public here. Nor in my Church is such display seen. 

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She would be very well covered and very beautiful in her essence and energy since this is the only part of her that she reveals (her clothing emphasises this).

Very Well covered?  the only part she reveals?  How does one reveal an essence or energy?  Does this mean no hands or face showing either such as is done in Saudi Arabia and some other muslim countries (but not all)? 

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Regarding head covering; women have to make a choice...the Church supports and encourages head covering on females. It is virtuous; a crown for her, a special blessing. Seeing the head coveing any other way is in my opinion a lack of understanding.

To hold a different opinion then yours is " a lack of understanding"?  And if someone were to say that if you disagree with them that it is just a "lack of understanding" on your part?   You have your opinions on how things should be.  Other EO disagree with you and seem to understand things well.   

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If so; than what distinguishes an Orthodox woman from protestants and RC's? These women are clear that they are free from all the previously church grounded Holy traditions and have moved forward refusing to up-hold them any longer today going thier own way.

On what authority or experience do you now make blanket statements about protestant or RC women?  How many of them do you know personally on such a level that you make remarks about their religious beliefs and practices?  Why do you feel the need to make sweeping assertions about other Human Beings at all?

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Orthodox by meaning = Ortho = Straight and Dox or 'Doxa' = word or way

Not to be too much of a pedant here, but I was told (by life-long EO) that it is "ortho"- right and "doxa" as either 'worship' or 'glory'.  Perhaps there is come confusion with what you are writing if English is not your first language?


Respectfully,

Ebor
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« Reply #197 on: May 16, 2006, 11:42:48 AM »

Where should we draw the line between modest and immodest clothing? Again: if a woman happens to be curvy, should her only choice be something that resembles the Muslim jilbab? I am not trying to be ironic - I have been thinking about this issue quite aÂÂ  bit lately because of this thread. Clearly, a jilbab-like dress would be the only option for some.

The reason for my using the jilbab as an example is my impression that the reason for the head covering and modest dress is not quite the same in Christianity as it is in Islam1. To me, it is clear that we should not disrespect God, but the thought of a woman being covered to protect her from the lustful looks of men sounds rather alien to me. In that case, a woman should not be allowed to be alone with a man who is not a relative.

We all sin - lust is a bigger problem for some than for others, but I was under the impression that the modest dress and head covering was mainly the result of wanting to honour and respect God. I hope you can see what I am trying to get at. Smiley

1 Sorry to be raving on about Islam, but it is a religion known for its strict rules on modesty.

For some interesting insight into the *enforced* wearing of abaya (the long robe) and hijab the headscarf and the veil the "Religious Policeman" blog is very interesting.  The writer is a Saudi gentleman living now in England who is very much against the real "Religious Police" in S.A. and how they bully women who *they* deem to be immodest, hitting them with sticks, arresting them. 
http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

The 'long and loose" is used there very much as control over women.  Women in S.A. are not allowed to drive.  The claim is, with the veil and all that covering, they couldn't see well to drive safely. Women who have done so have been arrested, and called terrible things.   Never mind that boys are tearing around driving and wreaking havoc on the roads there. 

Sometimes, things are used to keep other Human Being subordinate.

Ebor
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« Reply #198 on: May 16, 2006, 11:51:22 AM »

I don't think the dress code should become the most important thing in all of Orthodoxy living, they're other aspects we all need to work on and all are equally important.

But how another person dresses can be an "easy" target and a temptation to us for "cheap righteousness" maybe.  Along with temptations to lust there's pride "look at *that* person, not like me" sort of thing or envy "They have nicer clothing.  That's not modest" or other things.  Please note I am not saying that you or others are doing this.  It is a thought on how there are other sins and temptations.

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You don't think it's too much to ask for the females to help our fellow brothers by dressing modestly? For some it's too much to ask for, they will argue, other's will understand, and some just realize that short skirts are appealing to men.

Well, there's "What is 'modestly'"? Knee-length? Mid-calf? Sweaters?  Some here would seem to be saying that floor length is needed or "long and loose" or nothing showing?  How are slacks not modest if they are from the waist and not skin tight?  They are *not* just "male" garments".  There's more to it then just "short skirts" and midriffs, it seems to me.

Ebor
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« Reply #199 on: May 16, 2006, 11:55:37 AM »

Thomas, that's really interesting, and thank you so much for sharing that!

I once learned that back in Byzantium days women were not seen without their head scarfs at all. I'll have to look into that, i forgot where i heard or read that.

Infact, is the head covering thing a "custom" as mentioned? or "the way?"... that's a question everyone asks now a days.

That is where the History of Clothing and Culture would come in, with such questions as "is there a practical reason to cover the hair" (hygiene, lack of washing frequently) does it apply to the general populace or just subsets?  Is it for certain times or rituals?  What is the climate?  and so forth. 

Imho, these do matter in looking at a question and it doesn't matter if the data is "secular" as long as it is real true data.

Ebor
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« Reply #200 on: May 16, 2006, 12:53:04 PM »

I just wanted to post here so that Ebor wasn't the only one posting  Wink   Tongue

Also I wanted to add a question.  maybe its already been asked, but i'm gona try to ask it in a different way. 

Should the people conform to what traditionalists would say is "orthodox" or should the church conform (on this one issue) to the people?

Maybe conform is a bad word for the church, maybe we should say amalgamate? 

If I were a priest (which i'm not by any stretch of the imagination) I would ask my parishoner to find a middle ground.  We should not lead other people into sin with our clothes, but that does not mean that modern forms of dress are completely unacceptable.   

Maybe 1 sunday out of the month that woman could wear slacks, etc.  That is, if she comes every sunday in the first place.  So you see, there are bigger fish to fry than just clothing...
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« Reply #201 on: May 16, 2006, 01:04:57 PM »

For some interesting insight into the *enforced* wearing of abaya (the long robe) and hijab the headscarf and the veil the "Religious Policeman" blog is very interesting.ÂÂ  The writer is a Saudi gentleman living now in England who is very much against the real "Religious Police" in S.A. and how they bully women who *they* deem to be immodest, hitting them with sticks, arresting them.ÂÂ  
http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

The 'long and loose" is used there very much as control over women.  Women in S.A. are not allowed to drive.  The claim is, with the veil and all that covering, they couldn't see well to drive safely. Women who have done so have been arrested, and called terrible things.  ÃƒÆ’‚ Never mind that boys are tearing around driving and wreaking havoc on the roads there.  

Sometimes, things are used to keep other Human Being subordinate.

There is ultimately very little difference between the so-called 'Orthodox' fashion/modesty police and the Islamic advocates of Sharia law. Both desire to absolutize a past culture. Both desire to be undeserving inheritors of power or honour derived from the subjugation of women, the greatest injustice and atrocity in the history of the human race. Both are Gnostics, believing that which God ceated good to be inherently bad. Both refuse to take responsibility for their own fallenness and passions, blaming others for that which is only the fault of themselves.

So as I have said before, I will say again, why don't people who insist on maintaining social anachronisms just convert to Islam, at least that way we can begin to contain the damage.
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« Reply #202 on: May 16, 2006, 07:20:59 PM »

For some interesting insight into the *enforced* wearing of abaya (the long robe) and hijab the headscarf and the veil the "Religious Policeman" blog is very interesting.  The writer is a Saudi gentleman living now in England who is very much against the real "Religious Police" in S.A. and how they bully women who *they* deem to be immodest, hitting them with sticks, arresting them. 
http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

The 'long and loose" is used there very much as control over women.  Women in S.A. are not allowed to drive.  The claim is, with the veil and all that covering, they couldn't see well to drive safely. Women who have done so have been arrested, and called terrible things.   Never mind that boys are tearing around driving and wreaking havoc on the roads there. 

Sometimes, things are used to keep other Human Being subordinate.

Ebor

Oh, and you forgot one more thing. The women are not allowed to chew either, because it's considered "whorish".
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« Reply #203 on: May 16, 2006, 07:24:52 PM »

That is where the History of Clothing and Culture would come in, with such questions as "is there a practical reason to cover the hair" (hygiene, lack of washing frequently) does it apply to the general populace or just subsets?  Is it for certain times or rituals?  What is the climate?  and so forth. 

Imho, these do matter in looking at a question and it doesn't matter if the data is "secular" as long as it is real true data.

Ebor

The practical reason during the Byzantium period? Havn't looked into it, although i told myself i would.. i guess i forgot. Thanks for reminding me.
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« Reply #204 on: May 16, 2006, 07:46:58 PM »

Oh, and you forgot one more thing. The women are not allowed to chew either, because it's considered "whorish".
If by "chew" you mean chewing tobacco, I don't see this as a good thing for guys to do, either.  The spitting is nasty, and it makes a big mess when it's not contained.  Tongue
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« Reply #205 on: May 16, 2006, 08:06:11 PM »

If by "chew" you mean chewing tobacco, I don't see this as a good thing for guys to do, either.ÂÂ  The spitting is nasty, and it makes a big mess when it's not contained.ÂÂ  Tongue

And, plus, a pipe is so much more enjoyable Wink
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« Reply #206 on: May 16, 2006, 11:44:33 PM »

there is an interesting analysis of Paul's comments on headcoverings. I post the link below but I am not sure it will automatically connect.  The article very carefully analyzes the text from several possible interpretations and reasoning for Paul's use of the word exousia (which is not the word for veil, but word for freedom).  the basic theme is tha Paul was challenging the Corinthians' logic and practices in his statements...

http://www.christianethicstoday.com/Issue/034/Headcoverings%20and%20Women%E2%80%99s%20Roles%20in%20the%20Church%20-%20A%20New%20Reading%20of%201%20Corinthians%2011_2-16%20By%20Laurie%20C%20Hurshman%20and%20Christopher%20R%20Smith_034__.htm

I quote only one paragraph (it is a long paper).. but the whole paper is very interesting:
"To summarize, we have seen that there are no valid reasons to translate the word exousia as "veil" in 1 Corinthians 11:10. Instead, that verse should be translated, "a woman ought to have freedom over her head." This reading does not make sense in the context as it has customarily been understood, since the consensus interpretation finds in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 an argument that women should wear veils. However, it is quite reasonable to reconstruct the historical context for this passage. Here the Corinthian community was actively discouraging women from wearing veils, on the grounds that "woman is the head (source) of every man." Paul's comments can then be understood as spoken initially from their perspective; he is assuming the Corinthians' premises only to demonstrate their inconsistency with both the biblical creation narrative and their own rejection of female head-shaving. Once he has accomplished this, Paul is free to state his own conviction, which is consistent with the grace-laden themes of his entire theology: "a woman ought to be free to wear a veil or not, as she wishes."

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« Reply #207 on: May 17, 2006, 10:04:26 AM »

Oh, and you forgot one more thing. The women are not allowed to chew either, because it's considered "whorish".

That is *way* down on the scale of things that women are not permitted to do in Saudi Arabia. Among the many restrictions:  They aren't supposed to go out unless they have a male relative (father,husband, brother, son etc) with them.  They can't drive themselves, so they have to depend on said relative or a taxi (with relative) or a hired driver (commonly from another country and male).  Most are not allowed to have a job. If they go to school it is segregated.  A meeting last year on women's education had any women present in a seperate room listening over an intercom; the official photo of that showed only men.  Husband's and father's are thought within their rights to beat or lock up "wayward females".   In case of a divorce, the children "belong" to the father (like the laws in the US and Britain prior to the rise of Women's Rights). Some men arrange for "temporary marriages" for a set time and then cast the woman (or young girl) off.  There are still arranged marriages in S.A. often with a young woman being married to a much older man.   Imported maids and servants are not exempt from being used/abused by their employers either. 

Just today, the "Religious Policeman" has an entry about Wahabhi objections to womens *faces* being in the newspapers.  Just their faces, they are fully covered otherwise with robe and scarf/hijab. and farther down about a charming custom called "Misyar marriage" in which males get the benefit of access to a female while not having to maintain her as they would with a formal wife.

http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

 Al-hamadi, the man who writes the "Religious Policeman" blog started it:
"In Memory of the lives of 15 Makkah Schoolgirls, lost when their school burnt down on Monday, 11th March, 2002. The Religious Police would not allow them to leave the building, nor allow the Firemen to enter."

The muttawa prevented anyone from helping the schoolgirls and would not let them leave either.  They said it was "sin" to help/touch another human being just because she wasn't fully covered or not related.  Angry

Ebor
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« Reply #208 on: May 17, 2006, 10:13:41 AM »

I just followed a link from the "Religious Policeman" comments.  The king of S.A. had said that lingerie shops should have all female employees since the items are being sold to women.  This law has not only been delayed, but has been denounced by clerics as it would lead to "immorality and hellfire".  Apparently 10,000 women applied for the jobs.  It would seem that working women, even in segregated all women environments, are not to be allowed.  How far will someone's call for "modesty" on the part of others, particularly women, go?

Ebor
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« Reply #209 on: May 17, 2006, 03:57:58 PM »

As for westerners.. let's remember the white is to 'keep away the evil eye'...at least that was the original intent..

Could you please give a link or other documentation to this?  I'm interested because in my historical studies, white only became fashionable for a wedding dress during the time of Queen Victoria and her marriage to Prince Albert of Saxe-Coberg in 1840.
http://www.fromtimespast.com/wedding.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding_dress
http://www.weddinggazette.com/content/004568.shtml

Since clothing was made by hand and one wore one's clothing for a long time, a woman's wedding dress was her best or would be in the future oftentimes.  To have a *white* dress is very impractical when laundry is also done by hand and white shows dirt so easily.

Practically and necessity is often a part of why styles of clothing are worn. 

Ebor
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« Reply #210 on: May 17, 2006, 03:59:08 PM »

I just wanted to post here so that Ebor wasn't the only one posting  Wink  ÃƒÆ’‚ Tongue


 Cheesy Grin Cheesy

Sorry.  Didn't mean to take over the conversation.  Wink

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« Reply #211 on: May 17, 2006, 07:28:49 PM »

Just one comment Ebor as to the SA "lingerie shop" issue; I HATE seeing guys in the lingerie department.  It sounds nuts, but it does offend my sense of modesty, although I'm not sure why.  I guess I just don't like strange men seeing what um, underthings I might buy.
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« Reply #212 on: May 17, 2006, 09:14:47 PM »

If by "chew" you mean chewing tobacco, I don't see this as a good thing for guys to do, either.  The spitting is nasty, and it makes a big mess when it's not contained.  Tongue

I'm talking gum, not tobacco. Muslim women in Pakistan, Turkey, Arabia and other countries, are beaten up and called "whores" for chewing 'GUM'.

That is *way* down on the scale of things that women are not permitted to do in Saudi Arabia. Among the many restrictions:  They aren't supposed to go out unless they have a male relative (father,husband, brother, son etc) with them.  They can't drive themselves, so they have to depend on said relative or a taxi (with relative) or a hired driver (commonly from another country and male).  Most are not allowed to have a job. If they go to school it is segregated.  A meeting last year on women's education had any women present in a seperate room listening over an intercom; the official photo of that showed only men.  Husband's and father's are thought within their rights to beat or lock up "wayward females".   In case of a divorce, the children "belong" to the father (like the laws in the US and Britain prior to the rise of Women's Rights). Some men arrange for "temporary marriages" for a set time and then cast the woman (or young girl) off.  There are still arranged marriages in S.A. often with a young woman being married to a much older man.   Imported maids and servants are not exempt from being used/abused by their employers either. 

Just today, the "Religious Policeman" has an entry about Wahabhi objections to womens *faces* being in the newspapers.  Just their faces, they are fully covered otherwise with robe and scarf/hijab. and farther down about a charming custom called "Misyar marriage" in which males get the benefit of access to a female while not having to maintain her as they would with a formal wife.

http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

 Al-hamadi, the man who writes the "Religious Policeman" blog started it:
"In Memory of the lives of 15 Makkah Schoolgirls, lost when their school burnt down on Monday, 11th March, 2002. The Religious Police would not allow them to leave the building, nor allow the Firemen to enter."

The muttawa prevented anyone from helping the schoolgirls and would not let them leave either.  They said it was "sin" to help/touch another human being just because she wasn't fully covered or not related.  Angry

Ebor



This is so depressing! On top of that, i'm trying my best not to become angry.  Embarrassed
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 09:17:01 PM by Tsarina » Logged

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