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« on: April 30, 2006, 04:40:55 PM »

What, according to the Eastern Orthodox Churches, are the heresy's of the Catholic Church?
It would be great if you could say why as well and put it in bullit points.
Thanks
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2006, 08:17:57 PM »

What, according to the Eastern Orthodox Churches, are the heresy's of the Catholic Church?
It would be great if you could say why as well and put it in bullit points.
Thanks

  • Papal supremacy - In Orthodox ecclesiology no one bishop has authority over any other bishop within the very charism of his office.  Ultimately, even the other of the most divisive issues between RC and EO, the Filioque, is divisive (AISI) because of the authority the papacy has taken to himself to override even the decisions of bishops gathered together in Ecumenical Councils.
  • Papal infallibility (a natural growth of the doctrine of papal supremacy) - Infallibility is a characteristic of the entire Church; this characteristic cannot be isolated from the Church and bestowed on any single authority within the Church, be it a bishop or the Scriptures.  We see Catholics and Protestants doing much the same thing here: granting infallibility to an authority external to the Church.  Protestants grant infallibility to the Scriptures apart from Tradition and make the Scriptures an external authority, whereas Catholics grant this same infallibility to the Pope, making the Pope an external authority.  (By external authority, I mean an authority who is seen as being decisive on matters of doctrine without reference to the rest of the Church and her Holy Tradition.)
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2006, 08:21:24 PM »

Ultimately, even the other of the most divisive issues between RC and EO, the Filioque, is divisive (AISI) because of the authority the papacy has taken to himself to override even the decisions of Ecumenical Councils.

Actually, this was ruled on by the Eighth Ecumenical Council, which the bishop of Rome signed, as well. So, it's a heresy on the theological level because it was stated as such in an Ecumenical Council, on top of the authority issues.
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2006, 08:28:08 PM »

Actually, this was ruled on by the Eighth Ecumenical Council, which the bishop of Rome signed, as well. So, it's a heresy on the theological level because it was stated as such in an Ecumenical Council, on top of the authority issues.

I know that some Orthodox actually recognize two later councils (one of them involving St. Gregory Palamas and the debate over the Essence and Energies of God and the hesychastic movement) to be the Eighth and Ninth Ecumenical Councils, but this recognition is by no means universal within Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2006, 08:36:26 PM »

I know that some Orthodox actually recognize two later councils (one of them involving St. Gregory Palamas and the debate over the Essence and Energies of God and the hesychastic movement) to be the Eighth and Ninth Ecumenical Councils, but this recognition is by no means universal within Orthodoxy.

It was when all the Patriarchs and their Synods signed a paper agreeing it was. There has been no other official ruling to the contrary, as far as I know, from any canonical Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2006, 08:45:22 PM »

  • Papal supremacy
    • Papal infallibility
Are these issues (and resulting repercussions) the only issues??[/list]
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2006, 08:48:49 PM »

There's also purgatory, the filioque, the assumption of Mary (which is an issue because it is now dogma), the Immaculate conception, supererogatory works, created grace, and so on. They were just starting with the easy ones.  Cool
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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2006, 08:51:12 PM »

They were just starting with the easy ones.  Cool

Yeah. I was about to start a list earlier today, then after it got going, I decided it would be too big an undertaking  Tongue
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2006, 09:01:19 PM »

I really don't understand why people always say the biggest difference between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church is the papacy, and things like uncreated vs created grace, the filioque, and the Orthodox view of the crucifixion in salvation are mere afterthoughts.  To me, those things are much bigger than how much power some guy has.  

Also, there is a difference in belief about the Eucharist.  Roman Catholics believe that the Body and the Blood are present in both species(so the wafers are both the Body and the Blood, as is the wine), but Orthodox believe that the bread is the Body and the wine is the Blood.  

There's also purgatory, the filioque, the assumption of Mary (which is an issue because it is now dogma), the Immaculate conception, supererogatory works, created grace, and so on. They were just starting with the easy ones.  Cool
But Orthodox believe in the Assumption of the Virgin Mary too!!  Unless there is some subtle aspect that is different that I am not aware of.....
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2006, 09:07:09 PM »

But Orthodox believe in the Assumption of the Virgin Mary too!!  Unless there is some subtle aspect that is different that I am not aware of.....

The reason is because they dogmatized it. It involves the dichotomy some Orthodox make between Holy Tradition and dogma. Of course, most Orthodox don't seem to have any problem with it, as it is almost universally held in Orthodoxy, as far as I have heard.
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2006, 09:13:36 PM »

There's also purgatory, the filioque, the assumption of Mary (which is an issue because it is now dogma), the Immaculate conception, supererogatory works, created grace, and so on. They were just starting with the easy ones.  Cool

1.  Beginning with Purgatory....why do we Orthodox pray for the dead?

2.  The Assumption of Mary....what is the problem here?  Her life is an allegory for the life
of the faithful, why then (not even entering into the consideration of her sufferings), should she not be given the preemptive grace of assumption that is to be the reward of the faithful?

In the light of the Sovereignty of Almighty God, is it unfitting, that  His most perfect creation
be given this prerogative as an example to us and what we have to look forward to if we are faithful as she was and is faithful?

3.  And what is the problem of her Immaculate Conception?   Was Christ to incarnate into the body of one still carrying the stain of original sin?   How could the Spotless One, do such a thing?
If He is going to perform the miracle of the Virgin Birth, why would he NOT grant the graces in accord with Baptism, Preemptively to prepare this abode??

I see her immaculate conception as well as her assumption as being the most natural way for the Triune God to proceed and set the precedents in motion that would ultimately be the very life of the believer and the Church.

4. Supererogatory works, I am not familiar with this concept.

5. Created grace, is another one I am unfamiliar with.

Thank you.

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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2006, 09:23:30 PM »

1.  Beginning with Purgatory....why do we Orthodox pray for the dead?

3.  And what is the problem of her Immaculate Conception?   Was Christ to incarnate into the body of one still carrying the stain of original sin?   How could the Spotless One, do such a thing?
If He is going to perform the miracle of the Virgin Birth, why would he NOT grant the graces in accord with Baptism, Preemptively to prepare this abode??

I see her immaculate conception as well as her assumption as being the most natural way for the Triune God to proceed and set the precedents in motion that would ultimately be the very life of the believer and the Church.

4. Supererogatory works, I am not familiar with this concept.

5. Created grace, is another one I am unfamiliar with.

Thank you.

1. Orthodox pray for the dead so that it may help them in some way. There is not much more said that is "universally accepted" beyond that. Purgatory is different because it deals with expiation because of temporal guilt.

3. Orthodoxy holds that the conception was indeed immaculate. It is the baggage on the Catholic side that is rejected, which is implicitly tied to their version of the doctrine, including such things as original sin.

4. Superorogatory works are those which are "beyond" what the Catholic Church expects. They are supposed to provide merits, which can be used for getting through purgatory.

5. Orthodoxy holds that Grace is uncreated, that it is part of God, something like God being Love.
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2006, 09:27:39 PM »

Quote
Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church is the papacy, and things like uncreated vs created grace, the filioque, and the Orthodox view of the crucifixion in salvation are mere afterthoughts.  To me, those things are much bigger than how much power some guy has.  

Probably because papacy and filioque came first before the others.  And in truth, it is easier (at least imho to get around the view of salvation, grace, etc.) whereas the Romans have backed themself into a corner with papal infallibility.
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2006, 09:31:06 PM »

Don't forget anzymes  Wink

I think Asteriktos has a good list.
I'd probably only add the firm idea of the afterlife that Catholics have.  Also, the scholasticism that developed it is also problematic to Orthodox theology.  As one theologian I know told me, "Catholicism, even after the schism, wasn't too bad.  It didn't really go down hill until the dogmatized Aristotle
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2006, 09:40:49 PM »


1. Orthodox pray for the dead so that it may help them in some way.  Purgatory is different because it deals with expiation because of temporal guilt.

Thank you!  

It is still quite vague to me, how Orthodox prayers help them?  My own personal understanding was that an attitude must be ironed out so that the soul is without wrinkles.  That this takes time and opportunity for new decisions that will reform the attitudes of the soul to make it conformed to Christ, that it may enter eternal happiness.  I have a hard time connecting with expiation, it seems so punitive.



 It is the baggage on the Catholic side that is rejected, which is implicitly tied to their version of the doctrine, including such things as original sin.

In the Orthodox faith, what then is the purpose of Baptism if not to erase the stain of original sin?



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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2006, 09:48:00 PM »

It is still quite vague to me, how Orthodox prayers help them?  My own personal understanding was that an attitude must be ironed out so that the soul is without wrinkles.  That this takes time and opportunity for new decisions that will reform the attitudes of the soul to make it conformed to Christ, that it may enter eternal happiness.  I have a hard time connecting with expiation, it seems so punitive.

In the Orthodox faith, what then is the purpose of Baptism if not to erase the stain of original sin?

Well, the attitude of the soul is very important, for this is what determines whether a person experiences joy or anger in the life to come. Prayers in some way assist the soul in coming closer to God and getting over these issues. And yes, it does take a LOT of time, even moreso when one is passed on.

Baptism is many things, among them "putting on Christ," dying and being raised with Him, beginning the transfiguration of the heart, and erasing the person's sins. However, original sin is not an Orthodox belief; we are only reponsible for what we do. When Adam and Eve fell, they corrupted humanity so that we inherit a sinful nature and such things as pain during childbirth. However, the disposition towards sin doesn't constitute sin, it is merely something else Christ came to overcome, and that we must follow with Him to overcome for ourselves.
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2006, 09:49:59 PM »

    Are these issues (and resulting repercussions) the only issues??[/list]

    No.  I just started with these two issues because these are the two biggest ones that I see, and because these two issues are foundational to so many other heresies that the RC church has developed.

    I'm afraid that many of us who respond to this thread will only proclaim every Orthodox doctrine and practice to be correct (which doesn't cause me any problem) and declare every difference in doctrine and practice within the RC church to be heresy simply because it isn't part of our Tradition (which does cause me a problem).  AISI, many, but not all, of the differences in doctrine and practice can be attributed to mere regional differences that existed even before the Schism and are just naturally a part of the diversity of Christian experiences of the Faith.

    Some have mentioned the Immaculate Conception as a recent RC heresy.  To me, this is primarily another example of the heresy of papal supremacy and infallibility.  The dogma was NOT part of the RC faith until Pope Pius IX proclaimed it as infallible and binding upon all Christians in 1854.  Prior to 1854, there was clearly no consensus, even among the post-Schism Fathers of the RC church, on the truth of this doctrine.

    The Immaculate Conception also strikes the Orthodox as heretical for theological reasons.  For one, the dogma is based on a soteriology that is too heavily influenced by Augustinian views of Original Sin.  A more balanced understanding of the Fathers such as can be found in the Orthodox Church recognizes that Man is deformed and weakened by Adam's sin, making us vulnerable to choose to sin, but not that we are actually stained by the guilt of Adam's sin as the RC's Augustinianism teaches.  Orthodox soteriology, therefore, does not need a doctrine of Immaculate Conception.

    We also see the Immaculate Conception dogma making the Theotokos to be the "great exception" rather than the "great example."  The Immaculate Conception really separates Mary from her Jewish faith tradition and makes her out to be something different, which in turn makes her role as mother of the Messiah somewhat separated from this Jewish tradition.  The dogma also makes an exception of the Theotokos--an exception that some Orthodox even consider degrading to her role in our salvation--by implying that God took away from her her freedom to obey her own destiny.  This goes counter to why the Orthodox see in Mary the "great example," for it was the free obedience of the Theotokos that allowed God to form Himself within her womb.
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    « Reply #17 on: April 30, 2006, 10:05:12 PM »

    1.  Beginning with Purgatory....why do we Orthodox pray for the dead?

    2.  The Assumption of Mary....what is the problem here?  Her life is an allegory for the life
    of the faithful, why then (not even entering into the consideration of her sufferings), should she not be given the preemptive grace of assumption that is to be the reward of the faithful?

    In the light of the Sovereignty of Almighty God, is it unfitting, that  His most perfect creation
    be given this prerogative as an example to us and what we have to look forward to if we are faithful as she was and is faithful?

    3. ÂÂ And what is the problem of her Immaculate Conception? ÂÂ  Was Christ to incarnate into the body of one still carrying the stain of original sin? ÂÂ  How could the Spotless One, do such a thing?
    If He is going to perform the miracle of the Virgin Birth, why would he NOT grant the graces in accord with Baptism, Preemptively to prepare this abode??

    I see her immaculate conception as well as her assumption as being the most natural way for the Triune God to proceed and set the precedents in motion that would ultimately be the very life of the believer and the Church.

    4. Supererogatory works, I am not familiar with this concept.

    5. Created grace, is another one I am unfamiliar with.

    Thank you.



    Regarding the Immaculate Conception....

    Actually, your question is framed from a Western viewpoint. It is important to realize that the Orthodox have always believed that people suffer the effects of the original Sin, but that the 'stain' of the Original Sin is not on us personally. Because the Theotokos cannot have the stain of the sin, there is no reason for her to have been conceived Immaculately.

    Also, this doctrine can also be heretical due to the role the Theotokos played in 'enfleshing' the Lord. The human part of the God-Man that Jesus is was given to Him through the Incarnation. If the Western belief is right---where all of us have the 'stain' of Original Sin, but the Theotokos did not---then the humanity assumed by Christ would also not have this 'stain'. Therefore, mankind could not be redeemed, since the humanity assumed by Christ would not be the same humanity all the rest of us share!

    Thus, this borders on one of the classic definitions of a heresy: a teaching that either seperates Christ's humanity from His Divinity, or subordinates one member of the Trinity to be unequal with the other Persons (filioque, anyone?).

    I believe it was Khomiakov who stated, when told of the Immaculate Conception dogma that it was "a marvelous solution to a non-existent problem".

    It actually also touches on the role of superogatory works. We are each accountable for what we have done in our lives, and we cannot have access to the good deeds of others as some sort of spiritual checking account. Now, others can pray for us for mercy when the time comes, but we cannot say that because my saintly godmother prayed on my behalf, then I am 'entitled' to have so many of my sins wiped away. No, I am guilty of that which I have not confessed and repented of, and only I am responsible for my own misdeeds.

    Regarding created grace---again, the Orthodox hold that grace is uncreated, since the mission of the church is to heal and return Creation back to its original function intended by God, which is to share with Him our full natures as images and likenesses of Him. Therefore grace cannot be created, as then it is less than God, and for humanity to grow into His image and likeness He must share Himself with us through the Church. Because he has no point of creation, His Grace which heals us must be Uncreated.

    Created grace I have seen referred to in Catholic explanations for how their sacraments work, but not in their more recent (post 1970 publications--the issue is their previous theological understanding is simply 'talked around' and not addressed). In effect, grace is created and imparted to the recipient. However, our point is that this grace is not what we need to fulfill our destinies and God's desires for us. Since it has a point of creation it is less than fully Divine.

    I've probably muddled the explanations, but my theological library is back home now, and not accessible.
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    « Reply #18 on: April 30, 2006, 10:15:55 PM »

      I'm afraid that many of us who respond to this thread will only proclaim every Orthodox doctrine and practice to be correct (which doesn't cause me any problem) and declare
    every difference in doctrine and practice within the RC church to be heresy simply because it isn't part of our Tradition (which does cause me a problem).  

    Thank you so much for saying that.  How can we ever live on earth as it is in Heaven if we approach the faith empirically and dismissively?   You and Bizzlebin have been most gracious and helpful.
    I still have many questions that will take time to form.[/list]
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    « Reply #19 on: April 30, 2006, 10:23:02 PM »



    For one, the dogma is based on a soteriology that is too heavily influenced by Augustinian views of Original Sin.


    This was before the great schism,  was there division in the church over this issue then?  Or was there a consenses arrived at.
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    « Reply #20 on: April 30, 2006, 10:48:07 PM »

    However, we, the Orthodox, still hold the dogma of the Original Sin, as stated in the canons of the Council of Carthage (418), later recieved by the Sixth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople; the said dogma wasn't even an issue between the East and the West until very recently. Growing up in an Orthodox country I've always been taught that the Holy Baptism washes away the Original ("Ancestral", how we call it in Romanian) sin.
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    « Reply #21 on: April 30, 2006, 10:49:57 PM »

    However, we, the Orthodox, still hold the dogma of the Original Sin, as stated in the canons of the Council of Carthage (418), later recieved by the Sixth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople; the said dogma wasn't even an issue between the East and the West until very recently. Growing up in an Orthodox country I've always been taught that the Holy Baptism washes away the Original ("Ancestral", how we call it in Romanian) sin.

    We hold the doctrine of Original Sin in the sense that we believe that Adam and Eve's sin was the original one, yes, but that is about as far as it goes.
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    « Reply #22 on: April 30, 2006, 10:58:28 PM »

    We also believe that we share in that first sin, in some way.
    We had religion classes in school there, and that is how we were taught by the parish priest.
    That is not to say that our parish priest is the ultimate theological authority, but just to get an idea what the a regular Orthodox priest teaches his flock, in a non-polemical environment.
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    « Reply #23 on: April 30, 2006, 11:12:36 PM »

    We also believe that we share in that first sin, in some way.
    We had religion classes in school there, and that is how we were taught by the parish priest.
    That is not to say that our parish priest is the ultimate theological authority, but just to get an idea what the a regular Orthodox priest teaches his flock, in a non-polemical environment.

    We share in the consequences, but not the sin itself. It has often been called the "ancestral curse." Even the Bible establshed the principle:

    "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16)
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    « Reply #24 on: April 30, 2006, 11:15:11 PM »

    But those that die without having been baptized, even the babes, is generally taught that they cannot inherit God's Kingdom, being severed from Christ.
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    « Reply #25 on: April 30, 2006, 11:20:06 PM »

    But those that die without having been baptized, even the babes, is generally taught that they cannot inherit God's Kingdom, being severed from Christ.

    They cannot enter without Christ, of course, but there is not a definitive stance that they are without Him. In fact, a lot of the Fathers I have read seem to think they go right to heaven, and that God is with them.
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    « Reply #26 on: April 30, 2006, 11:27:51 PM »

    However, we, the Orthodox, still hold the dogma of the Original Sin, as stated in the canons of the Council of Carthage (418), later received by the Sixth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople; the said dogma wasn't even an issue between the East and the West until very recently. Growing up in an Orthodox country I've always been taught that the Holy Baptism washes away the Original ("Ancestral", how we call it in Romanian) sin.

    There seems to be some substantial difference of opinion in Orthodoxy over this issue.  I for one favor the Council of Carthage and Sixth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople.

    I believe the Holy Spirit sent wonders and signs to Lourdes to make a proclamation from the mouth of a poor ignorant girl.  The incorrupt body of Saint Bernadette, and continuing miracles,  to this day testifies to this truth.

    I do not agree with the heavy handed way in which doctrines are forced upon the Eastern churches, but neither is it necessary to our stiffen our necks when someone abuses authority.



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    « Reply #27 on: April 30, 2006, 11:28:28 PM »

    Quote
    "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deuteronomy 24:16)

    I'm curious as to what you make of the passages which say the opposite?

    "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." - Ex. 20:4-6

    "And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation." - Ex. 34:6-7

    "The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation." - Num. 14:18

    "And your sons shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years, and bear the brunt of your infidelity, until your carcasses are consumed in the wilderness." - Num. 14:33

    "Prepare slaughter for his children, Because of the iniquity of their fathers, Lest they rise up and possess the land, And fill the face of the world with cities." - Is. 14:21

    "You show lovingkindness to thousands, and repay the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them—the Great, the Mighty God, whose name is the Lord of hosts." - Jer. 32:18
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    « Reply #28 on: April 30, 2006, 11:35:34 PM »

    Quote
    recieved by the Sixth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople;

    Well.... the only problem with that is that the 6th Ecumenical Council sometimes accepted contradictory canons and principles, so acceptance of a Council (or collection of Canons of a Church Father) is by no means a precise and dogmatic acceptance of every single doctrine or belief within those sources. The sources accepted by the 6th Ecuemenical Council endorsed a number of different views towards the apocrypha/deuterocanonical, for example. Sometimes the people who originally wrote the canons didn't even follow their own canons (e.g., the principle established at the 1st Ecumenical Council that bishops were not to go from city to city).
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    « Reply #29 on: April 30, 2006, 11:36:56 PM »

    Quote
    But those that die without having been baptized, even the babes, is generally taught that they cannot inherit God's Kingdom, being severed from Christ.

    Actually, to the best of my knowledge, this is not the teaching of the Orthodox Church.  I know Ware mentions it as does some other Orthodox authors.  If I have the time, I'll dig out the quote.  The Church does teach that baptism is neccesary, however, it is also moot on what happens to those that are not baptized.  I think it was the late Metropolitan Philaret? (I'm not sure on this either), even though the Orthodox Church believes herself to be the one Church, she does not know what happens to those outside it (thus baptism).
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    « Reply #30 on: April 30, 2006, 11:37:58 PM »

    Quote
    But those that die without having been baptized, even the babes, is generally taught that they cannot inherit God's Kingdom, being severed from Christ.

    That's the first time I've heard that... though it might go along with making the child pay for the sins of the father Wink
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    « Reply #31 on: April 30, 2006, 11:39:42 PM »

    The Catechism of St. Philaret of Moscow clearly teaches the dogma of the Original sin.
    It is revisionist theology what Kalomiros does in his "The River of Fire".
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    « Reply #32 on: April 30, 2006, 11:43:11 PM »

    Asteriktos,
    Do you know that, within the OC, unbaptized children are not even allowed a Christian burial, in an Orthodox cemetery. Back in my little town, there were a section, in a remote corner of the cemetery reserved for those that commited suicide and unbaptized children. It is clerar then, that the OC is not very hopeful as to their lot.
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    « Reply #33 on: April 30, 2006, 11:46:05 PM »

    Quote
    Do you know that, within the OC, unbaptized children are not even allowed a Christian burial

    No, I didn't know that. I do know that catechumens (who obviously aren't baptized yet) do get an Orthodox burial though.  Don't understand that one.

    Quote
    It is clerar then, that the OC is not very hopeful as to their lot.

    Well, no offense, but you seem to be the only one (who has responded yet anyway) that has heard of this. I certainly haven't heard that this happens, but am familiar with Church Fathers who say that such children do go to heaven (e.g., Gregory of Nyssa).
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    « Reply #34 on: April 30, 2006, 11:56:06 PM »

    There seems to be some substantial difference of opinion in Orthodoxy over this issue.

    I wouldn't make any judgments about the "opinion of Orthodoxy" based on an Internet forum. As chris said recently: If you ask a question on OC.net, you're sure to get answers -- and maybe one of them will be correct.

    A few points:

    1) As for "Original Sin": Some Orthodox theologians (a la Lossky) have made much of this issue, but, in reality, most -- if not all -- of their arguments depend on an overemphasis on Augustin's work. After his fight with Pelagius, Augustin developed a theology of original sin as inherited guilt (not just corrupted nature), which guilt he said was tied to and passed on by procreation. While certain medieval Catholics (and 19th century apologists) preached similar things, the modern Catholic Church has distanced itself from such overly-Augustinian talk. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, for example, states that original sin does not include personal guilt (405).

    2) Dormition vs. Assumption: The standard Orthodox complaint is that the Catholic doctrine of the Assumption, as infallibly defined by Pope Pius XII, does not make it clear that Mary actually died before being assumed into heaven. This is quite troubling to Orthodox sensibilities, a fact that is only exacerbated by the fact that, at times, Catholic writings and popular piety include the belief that Mary did NOT die and, because she was Immaculately Conceived etc. etc., was assumed directly into heaven.

    3) It should be clear, therefore, that Catholic doctrine is by no means uniform on these topics. The Medieval Church's take is one thing (e.g. one can or cannot believe in the Immaculate Conception, as the Council of Trent stated), the 19th century Church is another (it's an infallible dogma...except in the case of Mary's death...that's up for grabs) and the modern Catholic reinterpretation/diversity of practice is a whole different can of worms...Hence, Orthodoxy's penchant for trying to say as little as possible and its particular dislike for infallibly defining these matters.
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    « Reply #35 on: May 01, 2006, 12:24:18 AM »

    Asteriktos,
    Do you know that, within the OC, unbaptized children are not even allowed a Christian burial, in an Orthodox cemetery. Back in my little town, there were a section, in a remote corner of the cemetery reserved for those that committed suicide and unbaptized children. It is clerar then, that the OC is not very hopeful as to their lot.

    It's also a fairly wide-spread popular belief (at least in Moldova...even parts of Greece) that if the priest fails to submerse, say, the hand of a child, then that child will grow up to be a thief, because his hand isn't regenerated.

    Popular practice and custom (especially those which seem to come from the time of the Turkokrateia) often differ from what finds in the ancient Fathers.

    Anyway, even the Catholic Church, whose Western Fathers were more keen on defining such things, developed the concept of being in limbo. And, to complicate things further, JPII (in Evangelium Vitae) said that the Church does not actually know the fate of unbaptized babies.
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    « Reply #36 on: May 01, 2006, 12:52:37 AM »

    I don't think that not allowing an unbaptized child a Christian burial, is a folk tradition, but a provision of the "Molitvelnic" (I don't know how this is called in English).
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    « Reply #37 on: May 01, 2006, 01:02:37 AM »

    I wouldn't make any judgments about the "opinion of Orthodoxy" based on an Internet forum. As chris said recently: If you ask a question on OC.net, you're sure to get answers -- and maybe one of them will be correct.

    Returning to the preschism Church, after 20 years of RC, I can share with you what I was taught,
    more through osmosis than any formal classes. (which I did not take)

    Mary fell asleep and was assumed into Heaven.  

    I have never heard that  "because she was Immaculately Conceived etc. etc., was assumed directly into heaven."  as you mentioned.

    What ever happened to the simple faith of the fishermen?  The lack of cohesiveness and divergence of opinion is staggering?  And I know from experience that one Orthodox group does not accept the particular differences of another Orthodox group with charity,  rather differences are ostracized.  And neither is the RC church exempt from this plague, where charisms are destroyed rather than nurtured.

    If true religion is to feed the orphans and the widows and keep oneself unspotted from the world,
    where do we stand before God?   None of these universities and religious institutions existed the first few centuries, yet the believers of those times far surpassed us in holiness. If the letter of the law kills but the heart of the law gives life, where should we be focusing and putting our efforts?

    If charity edifies but knowledge puffs up, why are we continuing to expand our knowledge and defining more walls to separate us?  Brothers, this is not as Christ would have it, we need to take a step back into Eternity and examine our behavior.   This looks nothing like the Bride of Christ,
    and it is a scandal to the world who expects to find love, unity and consistency in His Church.

    Let us pray for reform, beginning in our own hearts, and reaching outwards.
     







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    « Reply #38 on: May 01, 2006, 01:29:07 AM »

    Well, no offense, but you seem to be the only one (who has responded yet anyway) that has heard of this. I certainly haven't heard that this happens, but am familiar with Church Fathers who say that such children do go to heaven (e.g., Gregory of Nyssa).

    Yet another reason why reason and our understanding of God requires us to, along with St. Gregory of Nyssa, adopt the Christian doctrine of apokatastasis. Wink
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    « Reply #39 on: May 01, 2006, 02:07:23 AM »

    Returning to the preschism Church, after 20 years of RC, I can share with you what I was taught,
    more through osmosis than any formal classes. (which I did not take)

    Mary fell asleep and was assumed into Heaven.  

    I have never heard that  "because she was Immaculately Conceived etc. etc., was assumed directly into heaven."  as you mentioned.


    I've heard the RC doctrine as Mary was assumed into Heaven BEFORE she fell asleep (as in, never did in an earthly format - similar to Elijah or Enoch).  The EO view is apparant if you look at an icon of the Dormition.
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    « Reply #40 on: May 01, 2006, 03:58:07 AM »

    I've heard the RC doctrine as Mary was assumed into Heaven BEFORE she fell asleep (as in, never did in an earthly format - similar to Elijah or Enoch).  The EO view is apparant if you look at an icon of the Dormition.
    The official Roman Catholic dogma is actually non-committal on the subject of the Theotokos' death. The Dogma which was promulgated by Pope Pius XII On November 1, 1950 and decreed to be infallible was that: “The Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was run, was assumed in body and soul to heavenly glory.” This wording leaves the question of her death open.
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    « Reply #41 on: May 01, 2006, 07:55:37 AM »

    • Papal supremacy - In Orthodox ecclesiology no one bishop has authority over any other bishop within the very charism of his office. ÂÂ Ultimately, even the other of the most divisive issues between RC and EO, the Filioque, is divisive (AISI) because of the authority the papacy has taken to himself to override even the decisions of bishops gathered together in Ecumenical Councils.
    And the reason for this is that the church reflects the nature of God; unity in diversity. As all members of the Trinity are fully God, so all members of the church are fully Catholic.[/list]
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    « Reply #42 on: May 01, 2006, 09:34:57 AM »

      And the reason for this is that the church reflects the nature of God; unity in diversity. As all members of the Trinity are fully God, so all members of the church are fully Catholic.[/list]

      So Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are exactly equal according to you?
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      « Reply #43 on: May 01, 2006, 09:37:26 AM »

      I'm curious as to what you make of the passages which say the opposite?

      "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments." - Ex. 20:4-6

      "And the Lord passed before him and proclaimed, The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children’s children to the third and the fourth generation." - Ex. 34:6-7

      "The Lord is longsuffering and abundant in mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He by no means clears the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation." - Num. 14:18

      First generation we understand the provocation of an evil thought, second the desire, third the evil habit, i.e. consent and fourth the evil action. The Lord punishes those who habitually think and act in an evil way (3rd & 4th generation). Provocation (1st) and desire (2nd generation) he forgives. - St. Maximus the Confessor

      Quote
      ..."Prepare slaughter for his children, Because of the iniquity of their fathers, Lest they rise up and possess the land, And fill the face of the world with cities." - Is. 14:21

      Children are the evil thoughts, which passions (fathers) give birth in the hearts of men (land). These thoughts, the Lord commands to slaughter lest they possess the land and fill our inner selves (world) with sins (cities).

      Quote:

      If the use of the Law had been everywhere made perfectly clear, and strict historical sequence had been preserved, we should not have believed that the Scriptures could be understood in any other than the obvious sense. The Word of God therefore arranged for certain stumbling-blocks and offences and impossibilities to be embedded in the Law and the historical portion, so that we may not be drawn hither and thither by the mere attractiveness of the style, and thus either forsake the doctrinal part because we receive no instruction worthy of God, or cleave to the letter and learn nothing more Divine. And this we ought to know, that the chief purpose being to show the spiritual connection both in past occurrences and in things to be done, wherever the Word found historical events capable of adaptation to these mystic truths, He made use of them, but concealed the deeper sense from the many; but where in setting forth the sequence of things spiritual there was no actual event related for the sake of the more mystic meaning, Scripture interweaves the imaginative with the historical, sometimes introducing what is utterly impossible, sometimes what is possible but never occurred. Sometimes it is only a few words, not literally true, which have been inserted; sometimes the insertions are of greater length. And we must this way understand even the giving of the Law, for therein we may frequently discover the immediate use, adapted to the times when the Law was given; sometimes, however, no good reason appears. And elsewhere we have even impossible commands, for readers of greater ability and those who have more of the spirit of inquiry; so that, applying themselves to the labour of investigating the things written, they may have a fitting conviction of the necessity of looking therein for a meaning worthy of God. - The Philocalia of Origen
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      « Reply #44 on: May 01, 2006, 09:48:34 AM »

      I don't think that not allowing an unbaptized child a Christian burial, is not a  tradition, but a provision of the "Molitvelnic" (I don't know how this is called in English).

      Unbaptized children don't get a church funeral because such is a mystery (sacrament) of the Church (no, there aren't only seven).  You have to be baptized to receive other mysteries. That has nothing to do with the Church's position on their eternal destiny.

      Anastasios
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      « Reply #45 on: May 01, 2006, 11:00:47 AM »

      There's also purgatory, the filioque, the assumption of Mary (which is an issue because it is now dogma), the Immaculate conception, supererogatory works, created grace, and so on. They were just starting with the easy ones.  Cool
      I have been to an orthodox monastery ( old calendar)and the preast preached about the Dormition and thw Glorious Assumption of Mary. I think it is something that we, orthodox, admit also.
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      « Reply #46 on: May 01, 2006, 10:44:19 PM »

        So Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are exactly equal according to you?
      All are fully God.[/list]
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      « Reply #47 on: May 02, 2006, 12:04:32 AM »

      So Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are exactly equal according to you?
      All are fully God.
      And each is a distinct Person in whom the fullness of Divine Essence dwells.
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      « Reply #48 on: May 02, 2006, 03:30:44 AM »

      All are fully God.

      And each is a distinct Person in whom the fullness of Divine Essence dwells.
      Just as each church headed by a bishop is fully Catholic
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      « Reply #49 on: May 02, 2006, 04:57:55 AM »

      The Catholic Catechism makes the relationship of the church dependant solely upon a bishop of bishops... the Pope.
      881: The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head." This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.
      http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/881.htm

      "The claim of the Roman pope to have universal ordinary jurisdiction over the worldwide Church is dependent upon that the notion that the universal Church — rather than the diocese — is the Catholic Church."
      Carlton, C., (1999) “The Truth: What Every Roman Catholic Should Know about the Orthodox Church”, (Regina Orthodox Press; Salisbury, MA), p120.

      The Catholic notion is at odds with the Orthodox idea that all bishops are equal, and that all churches are complete. We can examine the Church Fathers to see how they used the term ‘catholic’.

      The first time the term is used in a Christian sense it refers to the local church (remember here that the Orthodox approach is that the church always held that each bishop is equal in The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans "Chapter VIII.-Let Nothing Be Done Without the Bishop.
      See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid"St. Ignatius “The Epistle to the Smyrnaeans" Chapter VIII.-Let Nothing Be Done Without the Bishop quoted at http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-21.htm#P2123_357530


      Further, the Catholic notion of the Trinity makes the Holy Spirit a 'junior partner', dependant on the other two.
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      « Reply #50 on: May 02, 2006, 06:02:08 AM »

        All are fully God.[/list]

        Are you saying they all exactly equal or not?
        Is is a simple enough question.
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        « Reply #51 on: May 02, 2006, 07:03:25 AM »

          Are you saying they all exactly equal or not?
          Is (sic) is a simple enough question.
        Actually it's not a simple enough question. However I did answer you. They are all fully God. What do you think being God is? I've given you the answer you're getting. Whatever God is they are fully God. If you want an exact exposition on the nature of an ultimately unknowable God then try some scholastic mind puzzles, a la Thomas Aquinas. You make the Holy Spirit the junior member, dependant on the other two. That's fine for you, I suppose.
        [/list]
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        « Reply #52 on: May 02, 2006, 11:45:13 AM »

          Actually it's not a simple enough question. However I did answer you. They are all fully God. What do you think being God is? I've given you the answer you're getting. Whatever God is they are fully God. If you want an exact exposition on the nature of an ultimately unknowable God then try some scholastic mind puzzles, a la Thomas Aquinas. You make the Holy Spirit the junior member, dependant on the other two. That's fine for you, I suppose.
          [/list]

          As I understand it the Eastern Orthodox Church considers the Son less than the Father.
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          « Reply #53 on: May 02, 2006, 11:54:59 AM »

          There's also purgatory, the filioque, the assumption of Mary (which is an issue because it is now dogma), the Immaculate conception, supererogatory works, created grace, and so on. They were just starting with the easy ones.  Cool
          I would like to add that, concerning Theotokos, we, orthodox, may not have a dogma of Immaculate Conception, but in our liturgical life many hymnes describing Her as: "Immaculate, Irreprochable, Most Pure Virgin, Spouse of God..."
          In our conciense (I could say sensus fidei, but it's a catholic term Embarrassed) the Most Holy Virgin is the Most Pure Creature of God, surpassing even Cherubs and Serafim.

          PS I apologise for my pour english
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          « Reply #54 on: May 02, 2006, 12:21:48 PM »

            As I understand it the Eastern Orthodox Church considers the Son less than the Father.
          I know some EO who say the same about the RCC with the Holy Spirit because of the Filioque.  Wink

          However, this is not true at all.  If Orthodoxy taught that the Son is less than the Father, then the Son could NOT be God.  The Son is fully God.  However, the Son is also eternally begotten from the Father.  Although both Churches teach this, in my experience the RCC does not emphasize this fact to the full degree and generally in the west, IMHO, Trinitarian Theology is not as emphasized.  However, because the Son is eternally begotten from the Father, then the Father is His source.  Yet, one not understand this as a lesser deity because the Son proceeds fully you now have a separate hypostasis of the same essence.  The Orthodox Church theaches the Father as a monarch and the Father of the Trinity, but they are all fully God.  Yet, because the Son is eternally begotton from the Father, the Church also teaches that the Holy Spirit cannot proceed eternally from the Son, for this would subordinate the Son.  Hope this explains the teaching in a nutshell.[/list]
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          « Reply #55 on: May 02, 2006, 01:34:18 PM »

          I've heard the RC doctrine as Mary was assumed into Heaven BEFORE she fell asleep (as in, never did in an earthly format - similar to Elijah or Enoch).  The EO view is apparant if you look at an icon of the Dormition.

          Where did you hear this brother, from an Orthodox or Catholic in a position of authority?
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          « Reply #56 on: May 02, 2006, 02:09:03 PM »

            I know some EO who say the same about the RCC with the Holy Spirit because of the Filioque.  Wink

            However, this is not true at all.  If Orthodoxy taught that the Son is less than the Father, then the Son could NOT be God.  The Son is fully God.  However, the Son is also eternally begotten from the Father.  Although both Churches teach this, in my experience the RCC does not emphasize this fact to the full degree and generally in the west, IMHO, Trinitarian Theology is not as emphasized.  However, because the Son is eternally begotten from the Father, then the Father is His source.  Yet, one not understand this as a lesser deity because the Son proceeds fully you now have a separate hypostasis of the same essence.  The Orthodox Church theaches the Father as a monarch and the Father of the Trinity, but they are all fully God.  Yet, because the Son is eternally begotton from the Father, the Church also teaches that the Holy Spirit cannot proceed eternally from the Son, for this would subordinate the Son.  Hope this explains the teaching in a nutshell.[/list]

            Oh good a debate about the trinity  Huh

            So you are saying if the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son the this makes the Son less then the Father?
            As I understand the matter both the Catholic and Orthodox have the position that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.
            Is this incorrect?
            Thanks
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            « Reply #57 on: May 02, 2006, 02:15:52 PM »

            Where did you hear this brother, from an Orthodox or Catholic in a position of authority?

            An Orthodox Priest who was a former Episcopalian priest.  He is very well read.
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            « Reply #58 on: May 02, 2006, 02:47:58 PM »

            Quote
            So you are saying if the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son the this makes the Son less then the Father?
            As I understand the matter both the Catholic and Orthodox have the position that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.
            Is this incorrect?

            mum. Wink

            Yes, both Churches teach that the Sprit proceeds through the Father, the Orthodox teach that it is temporarily however, not eternally.  For if it is eternally, then the Spirit has two sources (as opposed to the Son)/  Am I that if the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, this makes the Son less than the Father?  No, but I do argue that it misconstrues the relationship of the Trinity, ergo, a misunderstanding of each Person.  The difference is between "from" and "through." ÂÂ

            Although I agree with Mother Annastasiya that it is important to feed the hungry and be charitable, I also believe that it is necessary to have right understanding of Orthodoxy.  For to properly understand the Trinity is to properly understand how to worship God.

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            « Reply #59 on: May 02, 2006, 03:06:18 PM »

            mum. Wink

            Yes, both Churches teach that the Sprit proceeds through the Father, the Orthodox teach that it is temporarily however, not eternally.  For if it is eternally, then the Spirit has two sources (as opposed to the Son)/  Am I that if the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, this makes the Son less than the Father?  No, but I do argue that it misconstrues the relationship of the Trinity, ergo, a misunderstanding of each Person.  The difference is between "from" and "through." ÂÂ

            Although I agree with Mother Annastasiya that it is important to feed the hungry and be charitable, I also believe that it is necessary to have right understanding of Orthodoxy.  For to properly understand the Trinity is to properly understand how to worship God.



            What?  Huh

            Lets try to clear this one up as simply as possible if we can.
            1) The Son is begotten of the Father non-temporally?
            2) The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son non-temporally?
            3) Both the Catholic and Orthodox Believe this?

            Right?
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            « Reply #60 on: May 02, 2006, 03:15:31 PM »

            Quote
            1) The Son is begotten of the Father non-temporally?
            :
            More or less yes.  The Son is begotten of the Father eternally, before time.  

            Quote
            2) The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son non-temporally?
            This one is still arguble, theologically.  The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father eternally, yes.  He does proceed through the Son temporarilly, but not eternally.

            Quote
            3) Both the Catholic and Orthodox Believe this?
            Depends on who you ask.
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            « Reply #61 on: May 02, 2006, 03:48:57 PM »

            We also see the Immaculate Conception dogma making the Theotokos to be the "great exception" rather than the "great example."  The Immaculate Conception really separates Mary from her Jewish faith tradition and makes her out to be something different, which in turn makes her role as mother of the Messiah somewhat separated from this Jewish tradition.  The dogma also makes an exception of the Theotokos--an exception that some Orthodox even consider degrading to her role in our salvation--by implying that God took away from her her freedom to obey her own destiny.  This goes counter to why the Orthodox see in Mary the "great example," for it was the free obedience of the Theotokos that allowed God to form Himself within her womb.

            Not necessarily.  Being conceived immaculately simply means that Mary was conceived in the same condition as Adam and Eve before the fall.  And Adam and Eve obviously had free will.
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            « Reply #62 on: May 02, 2006, 04:23:05 PM »

            :
            More or less yes.  The Son is begotten of the Father eternally, before time. ÂÂ
            This one is still arguble, theologically.  The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father eternally, yes.  He does proceed through the Son temporarilly, but not eternally.
            Depends on who you ask.

            Ok that's good enough.
            Thanks
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            « Reply #63 on: May 02, 2006, 06:07:24 PM »

            No, this is not what I had hoped to communicate.  I am committed to Truth, the fullness of which I find in Orthodoxy alone.  Frankly, our division saddens me, and I long for the day when the RC church and the Orthodox Church will be united again.  I am committed to doing what I can now by the grace of God to bring this about.  However, I do not believe that union can ever come about by us just ignoring our major theological differences and pursuing a union based on lowest-common-denominator relativism and/or the embrace of heresy.  This is really not respectful to either your tradition or mine.

            Well why don't you talk about the differences, what they are, and why, and what can be done, instead of being smug sounding that you are so great and the Catholics are all wrong about everything.
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            « Reply #64 on: May 02, 2006, 06:13:06 PM »

            Well why don't you talk about the differences, what they are, and why, and what can be done, instead of being smug sounding that you are so great and the Catholics are all wrong about everything.

            What rights did the Pope have to establish himself as superior to the other Patriarchs during the schism?
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            « Reply #65 on: May 02, 2006, 07:04:09 PM »

            Well why don't you talk about the differences, what they are, and why, and what can be done, instead of being smug sounding that you are so great and the Catholics are all wrong about everything.

            Yeah, I know it's hard to communicate emotion through nothing more than the written word, so I forgive you for misunderstanding my posts.  I didn't intend to communicate any triumphalism or smugness on my part or on the part of the Orthodox.  Please forgive me for sounding like this.  I actually do have a great amount of respect at least for traditional Catholicism, which had preserved universally much of the high-church liturgical practice and traditional doctrines of the ancient pre-schismatic Church until the reforms of Vatican II.

            That said, I would be crassly irresponsible to engage you and other RC's in dialog with the goal of lowest-common-denominator ecumenism that seeks to whitewash our differences and make them appear as if they don't exist.  This is the attitude that I sought to refute in my responses to Mother Anastasia's posts.  I want that we should discuss the issues that really matter to both sides without pulling any punches.  Only by recognizing our differences can we work to overcome them in a way that is faithful to Truth, which I see in its fullness only in the Orthodox Church--I would not be humbly honest and true to my faith if I didn't make this statement.

            Of course, I don't want you to expect that you're going to get balanced dialog on this Orthodox forum; most of us are going to stand firm on our Orthodox convictions and call various RC doctrines heresy.  As far as my contribution to the discussion, I've stated all that I see as heretical in the Roman Catholic faith, just as you asked me to do when you started this thread.
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            « Reply #66 on: May 02, 2006, 09:52:20 PM »

              As I understand it the Eastern Orthodox Church considers the Son less than the Father.
            I understand that the EOC sees them all as fully God  Smiley[/list]
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            « Reply #67 on: May 02, 2006, 10:17:58 PM »

            At the risk of being accused again of still being Orthodox (when it is really just the egghead inside, that cannot resist answering a question that I think I know something about)...  Grin

            Quote
            As I understand it the Eastern Orthodox Church considers the Son less than the Father.

            So far as I understand, the Orthodox believe that, in the Divine Essence (as opposed to the Divine economy), God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are exactly the same in every way, with one single exception: the Father begets, the Son is begotten, and the Holy Spirit proceeds. (cf John of Damascus, Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, 1, 2 and 8 and 10)
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            « Reply #68 on: May 02, 2006, 10:57:57 PM »

            Sorry, wrong thread.
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            « Reply #69 on: May 03, 2006, 11:42:59 AM »

            What, according to the Eastern Orthodox Churches, are the heresy's of the Catholic Church?
            In my oppinion, the main obstacle between the two Churches, or, if you'd like, the Two Houses is the primacy of the Pope, including some historical events that hardened the relation ship between O & RC...
            All the rest, in my eyes (I am not a specialist, nor a nun), as filioque or other dogmatical subjects, are just to justify this state of non-communication between O & RC
            But always in my oppinion Huh
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            « Reply #70 on: May 03, 2006, 12:55:33 PM »

            Not necessarily.  Being conceived immaculately simply means that Mary was conceived in the same condition as Adam and Eve before the fall.  And Adam and Eve obviously had free will.

            The belief in the Immaculate Conception is clearly foreign to Orthodoxy.  The Theotokos was not conceived in a bubble apart from the human race, she is one of us.   Also, because of this, the term "immaculate" is a loaded one for the Orthodox.  It's used sometimes in  English translations when I think that "most pure" or a variant of this should be used instead.

            This post of mine on an earlier thread confirms what PetertheAleut says about the Immaculate Conception and voices it in a slightly different way:


            http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8380.msg111201#msg111201
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            « Reply #71 on: May 03, 2006, 04:09:12 PM »

            Excepting that you have said that one part of the egg is dependant upon the other two parts

            So you are saying the the Holy spirit doesn't proceed from the Father and neither is the Son begotten of the father?
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            « Reply #72 on: May 03, 2006, 04:17:55 PM »

            I think he was referring to Mother Annastasia (who is a vagante church) and not Eastern Orthodoxy.  
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            « Reply #73 on: May 03, 2006, 04:27:18 PM »

            Actually, to most Orthodox and traditionalist Catholics, much of what passes for ecumenical dialogue today is indeed an attempt to whitewash our differences. ÂÂ
            Now, what makes you qualified to know the working of the Holy Spirit where the Orthodox Church somehow does not?
            AMEN!
            Yes, I agree that this is true.  Pharisaism is a very common temptation, and, sadly, I have seen much of it in the Protestantism I left and the Orthodoxy I joined.  I've even succumbed to this temptation at times.
            Many outside of the Orthodox Church will be saved, and many within the Orthodox Church will be condemned.

            The one contention with which I disagree, though, is your apparent contention that all polemic debate of theologically divisive issues is automatically uncharitable straining after gnats.  We Orthodox believe--and I'm sure that many traditionalist Catholics believe the same--that one of the most charitable things we can do in dialog with the other side is to preach that our Church is the One Church that Christ established for our salvation and that it is necessary for our salvation to abandon our heresies and be reunited with this One true Church of Christ.  (Your belief that the Church is some mystical body that includes in some invisible way the faithful of the RC Church together with the faithful of the Orthodox Church is consistent with neither traditional Catholic nor Orthodox understanding of the Church.)

            I'm absolutely certain that apologists on both sides will preach this fundamental teaching with total humility and love, for in so doing they will be obeying the Great Commission to preach what they believe is the very Gospel of Jesus Christ.  When I dialog with a Catholic who seeks to preach that I must become Catholic to enter into the fullness of the Way to salvation, I'm actually filled with joy that he loves me enough to do this, even though I disagree with him and am equally prepared to reciprocate the same preaching to him.  (I actually lived with a Catholic housemate with whom I had this kind of loving friendship.  We each preached to each other the truth of our churches and sometimes fell to the temptation to argue with each other, but we each respected what truth we saw in the other's tradition.)  This is the interfaith dialog that I call true ecumenism.


            Actually, Catholics regard the Eastern Orthodox Church as our sister Church with valid sacraments and apostolic succession and we are happy for Orthodox to come to a Catholic church just as a Catholic would even in confession and the Eucharist. We are hopeful for reciprocation and reunification but sad at the lack of progress thus far.
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            « Reply #74 on: May 03, 2006, 04:34:50 PM »

            [quote author=ωραία ελληνίς link=topic=8922.msg118821#msg118821 date=1146670979]
            In my oppinion, the main obstacle between the two Churches, or, if you'd like, the Two Houses is the primacy of the Pope, including some historical events that hardened the relation ship between O & RC...
            All the rest, in my eyes (I am not a specialist, nor a nun), as filioque or other dogmatical subjects, are just to justify this state of non-communication between O & RC
            But always in my oppinion Huh
            [/quote]

            I think this is the heart of the matter.
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            « Reply #75 on: May 03, 2006, 05:48:52 PM »

            Thank you Mother Anastasia for being a generous, reasonable, and constructive contributor to this thread. I hope you do not desist now.

            Peace be with you.  Kiss
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            « Reply #76 on: May 03, 2006, 06:05:31 PM »

            Thank you Mother Anastasia for being a generous, reasonable, and constructive contributor to this thread. I hope you do not desist now.

            Peace be with you.  Kiss

             Smiley
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            « Reply #77 on: May 03, 2006, 07:07:04 PM »

            She's done nothing but continuously pass judgment upon every Orthodox poster in this thread, insinuated that she is holier than all others here, and claimed to know the mind of the Holy Spirit.  Is that what passes for "generous, reasonable, and constructive" contributions in Rome's eyes?

            Well, that is an interesting responce.  Roll Eyes
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            « Reply #78 on: May 03, 2006, 07:45:11 PM »

            I always seem to get this from Orthodox people on the net. Why?

            No offense brother, we're all followers of Christ, but if you keep getting the same reaction from ALL Orthodox, there are two things you should ask yourself:

            1.) Could it be something I am doing since it keeps repeating ?
            2.) I keep getting such a response, so why do I keep coming back?
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            « Reply #79 on: May 04, 2006, 06:37:17 AM »

            I think we are going off topic here people.

            The only consistant "heresy" you have come up with is the position of the Bishop of Rome.
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            « Reply #80 on: May 04, 2006, 06:45:51 AM »

            I think we are going off topic here people.

            The only consistant "heresy" you have come up with is the position of the Bishop of Rome.
            Would you call him schismatic then?
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            « Reply #81 on: May 04, 2006, 06:49:43 AM »

            I am concerned by some of the things I saw there.  The first thing that strikes me is that the site presents an ecumenist belief that both the Eastern and Roman churches departed from traditional Christian faith.  

            I would sincerely like to know what caused you to come to this conclusion.

            It may be perhaps the statement after the links (on His Perspective)  which has been revised but is not posted as yet.  But I am interested to know how you arrived at that conclusion.
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            « Reply #82 on: May 04, 2006, 07:56:09 AM »

            Would you call him schismatic then?

            No.
            That is why I used "heresy" instead of heresy.
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            « Reply #83 on: May 04, 2006, 08:13:41 AM »

            Wolf

            Quote
            The only consistant "heresy" you have come up with is the position of the Bishop of Rome

            One could argue that purgatory and other doctrines are heretical... personally it doesn't much matter to me. So I'll ask a different question. Wink Are there a certain number of heretical beliefs necessary before things get really serious? Is one heresy ok, while 4 or more means a Church has fallen? If a female friend of yours said to you "Well sure he has cheated on me with that girl for years, but that's only one mistake. It's not like he beats me. He's only made one mistake and admittedly refuses to change. But why would I seperate from him over that?" would you agree with that logic? Is it not really adultery if it's just one other woman/heresy (whether personally or ecclesiastically)?

            Also, as a general question, are all heresies of the same weight? For example, Theodore the Studite (a pre-schism saint Wink ) called a certain divorce of the emperor, which was allowed by the religious of the time, "heresy"... but did he mean heresy in the same way that someone would call papal supremacy heresy? Maybe there are levels or degrees of heresy, in which case the Orthodox could probably argue for more than half a dozen heresies.
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            « Reply #84 on: May 04, 2006, 04:57:58 PM »

            Wolf

            One could argue that purgatory and other doctrines are heretical... personally it doesn't much matter to me. So I'll ask a different question. Wink Are there a certain number of heretical beliefs necessary before things get really serious? Is one heresy ok, while 4 or more means a Church has fallen? If a female friend of yours said to you "Well sure he has cheated on me with that girl for years, but that's only one mistake. It's not like he beats me. He's only made one mistake and admittedly refuses to change. But why would I seperate from him over that?" would you agree with that logic? Is it not really adultery if it's just one other woman/heresy (whether personally or ecclesiastically)?

            Also, as a general question, are all heresies of the same weight? For example, Theodore the Studite (a pre-schism saint Wink ) called a certain divorce of the emperor, which was allowed by the religious of the time, "heresy"... but did he mean heresy in the same way that someone would call papal supremacy heresy? Maybe there are levels or degrees of heresy, in which case the Orthodox could probably argue for more than half a dozen heresies.

            Two points.
            1. I don't agree that it is a heresy as I have already said!!!
            2. That a lovely forgiving Christian attitude you've got there. Are you married?  Wink
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            « Reply #85 on: May 04, 2006, 05:23:29 PM »

            I am married, I'm not Christian, and if my wife cheated on me and wasn't sorry for it, but even continued on cheating, then yes, I would have a hard time forgiving her. Leastwise it'd be very hard to live and have close contact with her while she openly slept with another man. What you are asking is that Orthodox Christians ignore that, from Orthodoxy's perspective, Catholicism is still sleeping around.
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            « Reply #86 on: May 04, 2006, 06:08:47 PM »

            I am married, I'm not Christian, and if my wife cheated on me and wasn't sorry for it, but even continued on cheating, then yes, I would have a hard time forgiving her. Leastwise it'd be very hard to live and have close contact with her while she openly slept with another man. What you are asking is that Orthodox Christians ignore that, from Orthodoxy's perspective, Catholicism is still sleeping around.

            From the point of view of the Catholics the Orthodox falsely accuse us of being in the wrong when they themselves are in the wrong!
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            « Reply #87 on: May 04, 2006, 06:19:23 PM »

            What on earth is going on here?
            I always seem to get this from Orthodox people on the net. Why?

            (Imagine me saying this in a rather jocular sort of manner.  Cheesy )  You come to an Orthodox forum and start a thread asking the Orthodox posters to share with you what they see as the heresies in your RC tradition.  How else would you expect us to respond?  You asked us to be honest, and you got honesty from us.  I would say you got what you asked for.  Wink
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            « Reply #88 on: May 04, 2006, 06:24:24 PM »

            (Imagine me saying this in a rather jocular sort of manner.  Cheesy )  You come to an Orthodox forum and start a thread asking the Orthodox posters to share with you what they see as the heresies in your RC tradition.  How else would you expect us to respond?  You asked us to be honest, and you got honesty from us.  I would say you got what you asked for.  Wink

            I asked for a list with an explanation and not content less post just pointing out the Orthodox or better and right so there.
            I'm not interested in one-upmanship I'm interested in the issues.
            OK?
            Thanks.
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            « Reply #89 on: May 04, 2006, 06:26:44 PM »

            From the point of view of the Catholics the Orthodox falsely accuse us of being in the wrong when they themselves are in the wrong!

            ...except that Orthodoxy has not changed from what has been always and every.  I don't think you've even tried to make a case that Orthodoxy has changed.
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            « Reply #90 on: May 04, 2006, 06:31:37 PM »

            From the point of view of the Catholics the Orthodox falsely accuse us of being in the wrong when they themselves are in the wrong!
            I'm familiar with this perspective, but I wouldn't say that too loudly around here.  You wouldn't want to anger the natives. Grin  Honestly, I would rather Catholics say this of the Orthodox than to just not care about truth and orthodoxy at all.  Those who seek after Truth will eventually find it.
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            « Reply #91 on: May 04, 2006, 06:55:35 PM »

            I asked for a list with an explanation and not content less post just pointing out the Orthodox or better and right so there.
            I'm not interested in one-upmanship I'm interested in the issues.
            OK?
            Thanks.
            Sorry, I didn't phrase my words very well.  What I really intended to say is that in asking your question you opened yourself up to a lot of what you didn't want to receive, kinda like opening a can of worms.  Part of this is just the nature of internet discussion forums.  A single thread will branch off into many more tangents than even your average face-to-face discussion, in large part because so many more people are involved in the conversation.  There's also much more opportunity for people to hijack the discussion for a personal agenda and much more opportunity for posters to be distracted by such agendas.  You can state the way you would like people to post on this or any thread, but you expect way too much to insist that people follow your directions in a face-to-face discussion, much less on an internet forum discussion such as this.

            I realize also that many people just don't think in the logical point-by-point way that you and I think.  My pastor is a very good example of this with his "throw mud on the wall and see what sticks" approach to preparing and preaching homilies.  I can't expect him to present his homilies in a way that I can understand better; I just have to try to cut through his style to understand what he's saying.  There is certainly a lot of content in his sermons, once you know how to decipher his shotgun style.  Similarly, you can find a lot of substance in the general theme of the posts on this thread once you know how to cut through our shotgun posting approach.  Try also to separate the content of our posts from the apparent "one-upmanship" style that you will unfortunately receive from a lot of Orthodox zealots like myself.
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            « Reply #92 on: May 04, 2006, 09:29:23 PM »

            No.
            That is why I used "heresy" instead of heresy.
            I'd use schismatic
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            « Reply #93 on: May 04, 2006, 09:31:40 PM »

            ...except that Orthodoxy has not changed from what has been always and every.  I don't think you've even tried to make a case that Orthodoxy has changed.
            A very good point. Simply because both accuse each other of the same thing does not mean that they are both wrong... which seems to be what he's trying to imply
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            « Reply #94 on: May 05, 2006, 05:05:51 AM »

            ...except that Orthodoxy has not changed from what has been always and every.  I don't think you've even tried to make a case that Orthodoxy has changed.

            I don't need to make any such case.
            Right now I'm just trying to understand the Orthodox position.
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            « Reply #95 on: May 05, 2006, 05:08:31 AM »

            I'd use schismatic

            I've noticed.
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            « Reply #96 on: May 05, 2006, 09:56:11 AM »

            I've noticed.
            It's a great descriptor of Catholic teaching in general
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            « Reply #97 on: May 05, 2006, 10:41:18 AM »

            It's a great descriptor of Catholic teaching in general
            Thanks for the insight  Roll Eyes
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            « Reply #98 on: May 05, 2006, 11:55:29 AM »

            I don't need to make any such case.
            Right now I'm just trying to understand the Orthodox position.

            ...and it has been told back on the first two pages of this thread, explained why the Orthodox disagree and their current position to toward the RC.  I'm sorry if YOU disagree, but we don't all believe the exact same thing or have the exact same tastes.
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            « Reply #99 on: May 05, 2006, 03:20:24 PM »

            ...and it has been told back on the first two pages of this thread, explained why the Orthodox disagree and their current position to toward the RC.  I'm sorry if YOU disagree, but we don't all believe the exact same thing or have the exact same tastes.

            And?
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            « Reply #100 on: May 05, 2006, 03:40:59 PM »

            In nomine Ieus I offer you all Peace,

            I'm not personally interested in debate concerning Catholic and Orthodox grasping for the sole title of Christ's Church but I have found the number of Orthodox Christians on this forum who appear to not recognize the eternity of 'both' heaven and hell as a possible sign of movement within the 'faithful' from Orthodox Teaching on the Subject.

            Whither this is an example of 'overall' movement from Orthodoxy by Orthodox Christians is clearly a topic for debate but I find the overwhelming support for 'Universalism' here very concerning.

            Peace.
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            « Reply #101 on: May 05, 2006, 04:11:50 PM »

            In nomine Ieus I offer you all Peace,

            I'm not personally interested in debate concerning Catholic and Orthodox grasping for the sole title of Christ's Church but I have found the number of Orthodox Christians on this forum who appear to not recognize the eternity of 'both' heaven and hell as a possible sign of movement within the 'faithful' from Orthodox Teaching on the Subject.

            Whither this is an example of 'overall' movement from Orthodoxy by Orthodox Christian is clearly a topic for debate but I find the overwhelming support for 'Universalism' here very concerning.

            Peace.

            Yes, many of us Orthodox posters are equally bothered by this trend away from Christ's witness to the eternal suffering of gehenna, which I hope you can also see.  We see Tradition in one way as Scripture properly interpreted, but the Holy Spirit cannot lead us to reinterpret the Scriptures in such a way as to deny the doctrines that Christ Himself taught publicly.
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            « Reply #102 on: May 05, 2006, 06:29:20 PM »

            Wolf

            Quote
            Right now I'm just trying to understand the Orthodox position.

            The Orthodox position is the same as the position previously held by the Catholic Church, until the latter caught the ecumenism bug (a very pesky, and sometimes fatal, critter!). If you go back and read Roman Catholic sources from the early 20th century and before, you'll see heresy and schism thrown around quite a bit. The Catholics may have changed, but to echo the words of St. Basil in his Canonical Epistle, just because one side is nice to you, that doesn't mean that you have to return the favor. Basically, you seem to be mad at Orthodoxy for being consistent with it's stance from previous centuries, and not caving to buried-head-in-sand-ism. Wink

            francis,

            Quote
            I find the overwhelming support for 'Universalism' here very concerning.

            Come on now, there are 1,670 members on this forum, and I bet you couldn't identify by name 5 members (that'd be .2%) who are universalists. There are 2 or 3 who are very vocal members, who happen to be good at debate, and are willing to invest the time it takes to engage in a lengthy theological discussion. That's it.  If there case seems "overwhelming," then I suggest three possible explanations. First, they might just be better at articulating and defending their position in a detailed and systematic manner. Second, they might be correct, in which case anyone who does believe in an eternal hell might have some awkward feelings when reading their beliefs. Or third, Christian authorities (Scripture, Fathers, etc.) might contradict each other, and thus if one expects an easy victory for a monolithic "orthodox" position, and does not see such a victory in sight, then that might cause considerable anxiety. Personally, I think it's a bit of one and a bit of three.  Cool
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            « Reply #103 on: May 05, 2006, 07:07:01 PM »

            +
            +
            +
            Consider Brothers, Who it is here, that we are hurting.
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            « Reply #104 on: May 05, 2006, 07:15:08 PM »

            but will be based on things like doctrinal belief, orthodox practice, etc.

            But no one here,  has asked me about doctrinal belief, or orthodox practice?

            Rather I am being asked to provide pedigrees and institutional alliances?

            Will God judge my life on these things?
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            « Reply #105 on: May 05, 2006, 07:18:19 PM »

            Asteriktos,
            With how well you written all your replies (to everyone) recently, I'm surprised you haven't convinced yourself to return to the Church.
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            « Reply #106 on: May 05, 2006, 08:02:16 PM »

            In light of the subject of this thread, I offer for our discussion this snippet from the writings of St. Irenaeus of Lyons.

            From St. Irenaeus, Against the Heresies: Book III

            CHAP. IV.--THE TRUTH IS TO BE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE BUT IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE SOLE DEPOSITORY OF APOSTOLICAL DOCTRINE. HERESIES ARE OF RECENT FORMATION, AND CANNOT TRACE THEIR ORIGIN UP TO THE APOSTLES.

                1. Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the thing pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient Churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary, [in that case,] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the Churches?

                2. To which course many nations of those barbarians who believe in Christ do assent, having salvation written in their hearts by the Spirit, without paper or ink, and, carefully preserving the ancient tradition, believing in one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and all things therein, by means of Christ Jesus, the Son of God; who, because of His surpassing love towards His creation, condescended to be born of the virgin, He Himself uniting man through Himself to God, and having suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rising again, and having been received up in splendour, shall come in glory, the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Judge of those who are judged, and sending into eternal fire those who transform the truth, and despise His Father and His advent. Those who, in the absence of written documents, have believed this faith, are barbarians, so far as regards our language; but as regards doctrine, manner, and tenor of life, they are, because of faith, very wise indeed; and they do please God, ordering their conversation in all righteousness, chastity, and wisdom. If any one were to preach to these men the inventions of the heretics, speaking to them in their own language, they would at once stop their ears, and flee as far off as possible, not enduring even to listen to the blasphemous address. Thus, by means of that ancient tradition of the apostles, they do not suffer their mind to conceive anything of the [doctrines suggested by the] portentous language of these teachers, among whom neither Church nor doctrine has ever been established.


            This excerpt extracted from this url: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/irenaeus/advhaer3.txt


            (modifications added below to offer my own comments on the text)

            From the above excerpt from St. Irenaeus's writings, I offer the following:
            • There is but one Church of Christ.
            • This Church has by necessity made itself manifest as an "institution."
            • Christ and His Holy Apostles have bequeathed upon the Church Truth in all its fullness.  As such, those who will can draw from the Church the water of life.
            • We must adhere to the teachings of the Church, the Tradition of Truth.
            • Those who teach doctrines contrary to the doctrines of the great Church of Christ must be avoided as heretics.  I know that this statement is very unpopular in today's ecumenical climate, for many of today's ecumenists have all but thrown out the word heresy for the sake of [false] unity.  However, I hope you can see that St. Irenaeus considered the preservation of true doctrine and the articulation of truth against heresy to be one of the most important works of the Church.  Those who are members of the Church cannot be in [Sacramental] union with those who would mark themselves as heretics by perverting the truth.
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            « Reply #107 on: May 05, 2006, 11:11:19 PM »

            Thanks for the insight
            You're more than welcome. If you want to move beyond trading one-liners, you can always visit any of the facts I've posted and take up discussing them
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            « Reply #108 on: May 06, 2006, 02:00:35 AM »


            • There is but one Church of Christ.

            1. I agree with this statement whole heartedly.  But it is apparent from this forum that many are in dissension about exactly which Church is the one true Church.  If we were autocephalous, under the covering of the Roman Catholic pontiff, as was suggested earlier, this would be acceptable(to some)....but then we would be in conflict with those Orthodox that insist that Rome broke away from them and is teaching false doctrine, therefore, they are heretics and anyone under their covering are heretics as well.

            If I were to assemble ministers from the Baptist, Lutheran, Pentacostal, Church of Christ, etc.  They would all argue that their doctrine was the only truth, and the others were heretics.  

            By way of the same example, if all the divergent Orthodox groups, Greek and Russian, were assembled under one roof, along with the Catholics, again there would be contention and insistence that theirs was the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.  Each would find fault with the other due to some divergence of opinion, practice, dogmatic statement...etc. etc.

            Just one little quote taking about three minutes to find on the internet...bear in mind I am ignorant of all the groups and don't even know where to go to find an example,all I had to do was type in schism, and volumes presented themselves with the same claims.


            http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch05275
             ...Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church of North and South America and is under the spiritual guidance of Archbishop +GREGORY. Our Primate is His Beatitude, Metropolitan +STEPHAN of Cleveland. We are in communion with Churches throughout the United States and Canada. We, however, are not in communion with all jurisdictions. Our apostolic succession comes from several lines dating back to Jesus Christ. Our lines include Ukrainian, Greek, Russian and others. For instance, St. Tikhon, the last true Patriarch of Russia who was murdered by the communists, is in our lines. We are not in communion with some Orthodox Churches because of their refusal to follow the sacred canons of the seven ecumenical councils and also for their misunderstanding of how the canons should be applied and what they mean.


            http://www.romanorthodox.com/communion.html
            The words schism and schismatic have found perhaps their heaviest usage in the history of Christianity, to denote splits within a church or religious body. In this context, schismatic as a noun denotes a person who creates or incites schism in a church or is a member of a splinter church, and schismatic as an adjective refers to ideas and things that are thought to lead towards or promote schism, often describing a church that has departed from whichever communion the user of the word considers to be the true Christian church. These words have been used to denote both the phenomenon of Christian group splintering in general, and certain significant historical splits in particular.

            Thus, within Christianity the word schism may refer to:

                * The offense of inciting divisions among Christians.

               
            His Beatitude, +DAVID
            Metropolitan Archbishop, Archdiocese of the Americas
            Primate II
            ROMAN ORTHODOX CHURCH


            So in essence, I am coming under fire from you for trying to promote unity, while you are busy trying to divide yourselves from others. According to the definition presented by St. Ireneaus,  who is the schismatic here?

            And how can we proceed to point two?

            We are in desperate need of God's mercy!  Must He send a comet to knock this planet off its axis and plunge it into darkness where a third of humanity is killed and only a few handfuls of Sacramental Christians let alone priests and Bishops are left,  and we are all so thirsty and desperate for true Christian fellowship, that we will, with profound gratitude and reverence receive last rights from any Orthodox or Catholic with Apostolic Succession?   Or even better, if we are lying their burnt from head to toe, shivering in our pain,  and a Pentacostal comes and lays hands on us, tearfully begging God to have mercy and take us quickly or heal us.  Shall we have the arrogance to push his hand away and tell him we can't pray with him?

            I think we have a great deal to learn, and I pray that God does not have to resort to the hard way reserved for hardened hearts.  But He is a loving and persistent Father, and I believe He will use every measure to bring us to humble repentance for the endless ways we have arrogantly presumed to elevate ourselves above others and exclude them from the fellowship of the believers.

            By the definition of St. Ireneaus,  I do not see any institution who has not in some way, succumbed to schism.

            Please post any other topics as these into the Heresy-Jurisidction Thread.  This thread is to remain about the Roman Catholic Church and heresies it may hold. - dantxny, moderator
            http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8972.0
            « Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 02:23:27 AM by dantxny » Logged

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            « Reply #109 on: May 06, 2006, 02:29:28 AM »

            By way of the same example, if all the divergent Orthodox groups, Greek and Russian, were assembled under one roof, along with the Catholics, again there would be contention and insistence that theirs was the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.  Each would find fault with the other due to some divergence of opinion, practice, dogmatic statement...etc. etc.

            If by "divergent Orthodox groups" you mean those who claim to be Orthodox (but aren't necessarily) then what you say is true. But if you mean the Orthodox church in Greece, the Orthodox church in Russia, the Orthodox church in Japan, the Orthodox church in Georgia, the Orthodox church in America, the Orthodox church in Serbia, the Orthodox church in Bulgaria, etc. then you have mischaracterised them as "divergent" and your statement is false.

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            « Reply #110 on: May 06, 2006, 02:41:39 AM »

            Mother Anastasia


            http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch05275
             ...Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church of North and South America and is under the spiritual guidance of Archbishop +GREGORY. Our Primate is His Beatitude, Metropolitan +STEPHAN of Cleveland. We are in communion with Churches throughout the United States and Canada. We, however, are not in communion with all jurisdictions. Our apostolic succession comes from several lines dating back to Jesus Christ. Our lines include Ukrainian, Greek, Russian and others. For instance, St. Tikhon, the last true Patriarch of Russia who was murdered by the communists, is in our lines. We are not in communion with some Orthodox Churches because of their refusal to follow the sacred canons of the seven ecumenical councils and also for their misunderstanding of how the canons should be applied and what they mean.


            As a Ukrainian I have to officially say that the jurisdiction mentioned above is just a vagante group and cannot be considered a Canonical Orthodox jurisdisdiction. So this example does not apply here. The only Canonical Orthodox Ukrainian body in USA is UOC-USA.  
            http://www.uocofusa.org
            Of course, there are Orthodox Ukrainians in other Canonical Orthodox Jurisdictions as well as non-Ukrainians are more then welcome to join UOC-USA and thanks God, they do so, including many current UOC-USA clergy.

            Prodromos,
            Totally agree with you.
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            « Reply #111 on: May 06, 2006, 02:51:08 AM »


            Quote from Peter the Aluet
            The first thing that strikes me is that the site presents an ecumenist belief that both the Eastern and Roman churches departed from traditional Christian faith.  This essentially implies that there was a third way that was at one time invisible.
            Peter the Aluet


            Christ began His Church on earth as One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church;  man through greed, lust, and power divided this seamless garment and began arguing over who was right.  So you are talking about the two or more branches of the church, and I am talking about what was in the beginning, One Church.

            Now, because of these divisions, anointings legitimately from God are scorned.  Take for instance the Divine Mercy apostolate of St. Faustina Kowalska.  Do we need exceptional mercy on earth at this time?  Just listening to this forum, I would say we surely do.

            Yet some Orthodox will argue that she was delusional,  and graces cannot be
            released by our suffering and prayers on behalf of another.  Yet the miracles and death bed conversions testify to the veracity of this devotion.  The whole undivided church needs this devotion.  But because of the arrogance of the shepherds, the sheep are denied this grace (which is most efficacious for the dying unrepentant sinner).

            Do you think God is pleased with this kind of opposition that shuts up the gates of mercy, not allowing the sheep to enter in, and in the next breath claim to be His shepherds in His one and only true church?

            Do you know what is the most common thing I hear as to why good and devout people will no longer go to church?  The Romans won't administer the sacraments if you aren't paid up on your tithes...a dying elderly woman cannot be buried with her husband (imagine this, a penniless widow)  in the same cemetery because she's not paid up!!  People who wanted to serve and felt a profound calling on their lives are turned away.  Those who preach the truth are "retired"...

            An Orthodox woman walked by our chapel yesterday as we were passing out food.  She stopped to visit with Father Bishop and told him the woefull story of how, in the Aleutian Islands she was part of an Orthodox Church, but the political infighting and degrading  mud slinging were so unchristian, that she couldn't take it anymore and she left.  Now she doesn't want to get involved with any group because she is afraid to hear anymore.  She just wants her own peaceful relationship with God.  

            Can you imagine this?  One who has been driven away by our bad example?  And for this we will receive a reward in Heaven?  In our struggles to be so "correct" we have alienated a soul from the sacraments.  And this is only one soul out of millions.

            I tell you Brothers, Christians are jaded, turned off and fed up with the institutional churches.  If we don't do something about our attitudes, I fear for the state of our souls, and  at this rate I certainly don't expect to hear,  "Well done my good and faithful servant, enter into your Master's joy."  
             

            « Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 04:26:44 AM by Mother Anastasia » Logged

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            « Reply #112 on: May 06, 2006, 03:01:03 AM »

            Mother AnastasiaAs a Ukrainian I have to officially say

            By making this pronouncement on the vagante group, are you saying that this woman would have been condemned anyway, since she was not a part of the True Church?

            My perspective is to question, what would we officially say when we face our Creator and with tears running down His cheeks He asks us why we scandalized a lamb in this (unclean) vagante group, because when she saw our pronouncements she, frightened and confused, stopped going to any church, never fulfilled her calling, and died outside the Sacraments?

            « Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 04:34:21 AM by Mother Anastasia » Logged

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            « Reply #113 on: May 06, 2006, 03:04:39 AM »


            Prodromos,
            Totally agree with you.

            If we agree, we have to be delicately carefull that in trying to pull out what we see as tares, we do not uproot the wheat and kill it too.  Please forgive me brother for being uncharitable in my response.
            « Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 04:11:01 AM by Mother Anastasia » Logged

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            « Reply #114 on: May 06, 2006, 03:25:51 AM »

            And what will you officially say when you face your Creator and with tears running down His cheeks He asks you why you scandalized a lamb in this (unclean) vagante group, because when she saw your pronouncement she, frightened and confused, stopped going to any church, never fulfilled her calling, and died outside the Sacraments?

            There will be an accounting Brother, and your lineage and paperwork will not pay the debt.

            Mother Anastasia,
            As PeterTheAleut said here, based on St. Irinaeus of Lyons:
            There is but one Church of Christ.

            Thank you for a great analysis, Peter. Also, I really appreciate and admire efforts of all Orthodox posters here.
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            « Reply #115 on: May 06, 2006, 03:42:39 AM »

            Actually, let us follow Dantxny's decision and use Heresy-Jurisdiction thread.

            http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8972.0
            Dantxny, I support your decision and apologize for the confusion.
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            « Reply #116 on: May 06, 2006, 04:19:49 AM »


              • Those who teach doctrines contrary to the doctrines of the great Church of Christ must be avoided as heretics.  I know that this statement is very unpopular in today's ecumenical climate, for many of today's ecumenists have all but thrown out the word heresy for the sake of [false] unity.  However, I hope you can see that St. Irenaeus considered the preservation of true doctrine and the articulation of truth against heresy to be one of the most important works of the Church.  Those who are members of the Church cannot be in [Sacramental] union with those who would mark themselves as heretics by perverting the truth.

              If you percieve our position to be heretical, would you please make a  list to clarify what doctrines we support that  go against true doctrine?

              (the only one I am aware of is our jurisdictional position)

              Thank you.

              (p.s.) I didn't know how to post this into the other category since I am quoting you from here.
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              « Reply #117 on: May 06, 2006, 10:28:16 AM »

              Issues like this are why the Church has a long established standard for who is Orthodox and who is not...the Orthodox are those, and only those, who are in Communion with the Great Church of Christ, full stop, end of issue.
              « Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 10:29:12 AM by greekischristian » Logged

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              « Reply #118 on: May 06, 2006, 11:57:26 AM »

              Hey folks: there is another thread to debate the "orthodoxy" of MA's jurisdiction.
              http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=8972.0

              I thought this one had a different purpose.
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              « Reply #119 on: May 06, 2006, 07:49:10 PM »

              francis,

              Come on now, there are 1,670 members on this forum, and I bet you couldn't identify by name 5 members (that'd be .2%) who are universalists. There are 2 or 3 who are very vocal members, who happen to be good at debate, and are willing to invest the time it takes to engage in a lengthy theological discussion. That's it.  If there case seems "overwhelming," then I suggest three possible explanations. First, they might just be better at articulating and defending their position in a detailed and systematic manner. Second, they might be correct, in which case anyone who does believe in an eternal hell might have some awkward feelings when reading their beliefs. Or third, Christian authorities (Scripture, Fathers, etc.) might contradict each other, and thus if one expects an easy victory for a monolithic "orthodox" position, and does not see such a victory in sight, then that might cause considerable anxiety. Personally, I think it's a bit of one and a bit of three.  Cool

              In nomine Ieus I offer you continued Peace Asteriktos,

              There are historically taught 'nine ways of participating in anothers sins', the 8th being through silence. Frankly I have enough sin of my own to stand idly by and be silent while others offer up error for the consumption of the faithful.

              Two of the Chief Spiritual Works of Mercy are 'To instruct the ignorant' and 'To counsel the doubtful'. In either case I am moved to offer up a Biblical, Catholic and Orthodox defense to the unbiblical, unCatholic and unOrthodox articulation of universal salvation.

              This is a growing challenge to the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and I greatly fear that most Christians are truly very naive to the fact that modernist ideals have captivated their faith. I find it chilling to say that least.

              Of course I'm an old school type so I don't take these trends lightly.  Smiley

              Peace and God Bless.
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              « Reply #120 on: May 06, 2006, 10:29:52 PM »

              Quote
              Two of the Chief Spiritual Works of Mercy are 'To instruct the ignorant' and 'To counsel the doubtful'. In either case I am moved to offer up a Biblical, Catholic and Orthodox defense to the unbiblical, unCatholic and unOrthodox articulation of universal salvation.

              In my experience, I have met very few people on this forum that expouse the opinion and only one EO in rl.  Now many will discuss it, but I would equate it to the discussion that you see of Limbo in the RCC.  Basically, we don't really know who God's going to save and not, thus, many EO do not make official pronouncments one way or another.  However, that does not mean we can ponder, but even those pondering understand that it's theologuma and not doctrine.  Also, even those that do hold universalism, in my experience, claim that in God's mercy all can be saved, not that they MUST be saved.  Agree or disagree there's nothing Unorthodox or Uncatholic about thinking that God has infinate mercy. Although, I personally reject the theory, I can understand where they're coming from.  However, it would be wrong if they pronounced the idea as absolute.  
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              « Reply #121 on: May 07, 2006, 01:53:48 AM »

              In my experience, I have met very few people on this forum that expouse the opinion and only one EO in rl.  Now many will discuss it, but I would equate it to the discussion that you see of Limbo in the RCC.  Basically, we don't really know who God's going to save and not, thus, many EO do not make official pronouncments one way or another.  However, that does not mean we can ponder, but even those pondering understand that it's theologuma and not doctrine.  Also, even those that do hold universalism, in my experience, claim that in God's mercy all can be saved, not that they MUST be saved.  Agree or disagree there's nothing Unorthodox or Uncatholic about thinking that God has infinate mercy. Although, I personally reject the theory, I can understand where they're coming from.  However, it would be wrong if they pronounced the idea as absolute. ÂÂ
              Daniel

              In nomine Ieus I offer you continued Peace dantxny,

              I appreciate your thoughts on the matter and I encourage you to share more your thoughts in the thread under the 'faith' forum. Ultimately I am so far incapable of bridging such conjecture with the word of God but I welcome anyone who might be capable of 'walking me across this minefield' to the certainity of my own salvation.

              Peace and God Bless.
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