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Author Topic: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church  (Read 187594 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1440 on: September 01, 2009, 04:46:29 PM »

Grace and Peace,

I will only say this once. Do not follow the West... it only leads to death.
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« Reply #1441 on: September 02, 2009, 08:32:30 PM »

Grace and Peace,

I will only say this once. Do not follow the West... it only leads to death.
And what is "the West"?  Is it a philosophical system or prevailing world view?  Is it a culture and way of life?  Or is it an association of persons?  If you have persons in mind, then congratulations!  You just pronounced an ad hominem against half the world. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #1442 on: September 02, 2009, 09:56:34 PM »

I will only say this once. Do not follow the West... it only leads to death.

Aren't you a Roman Catholic?
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« Reply #1443 on: September 02, 2009, 11:28:20 PM »

Deacons are at the first rank of priesthood.

No, they are not. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15225.msg229571.html#msg229571
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« Reply #1444 on: September 09, 2009, 05:59:46 AM »

The Church has made some modifications out of Economia like allowing Baptism with sand if there's no source of water or oil nearby only if the person is near death and is expected to die. 

Are there any canons/letters/statements which state that clearly?

Sorry for having dug the topic up.
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« Reply #1445 on: September 09, 2009, 11:44:36 AM »

I was just reading an old article by Fr. Alexander Schmemann about this topic and I thought i'd post part of it.  I  took a quick peek to see if someone else had referenced this and I havn't seen it but if i'm reposting something I apologize. 
Quote
In the essential reality which alone constitutes the content
of our faith and shapes the entire life of the Church, in the reality
of the Kingdom of God which is perfect communion, perfect
knowledge, perfect love and ultimately the "deification" of man,
there is truly "neither male nor female." More than that, in this
reality of which we are made partakers here and now, we all—men
and women, without any distinction—are "kings and priests," for
it is the essential priesthood of the human nature and vocation
that Christ has restored to us.
It is of this priestly life, it is of this ultimate reality that the
Church is both gift and acceptance. And that she may be this,
that she may always and everywhere be the gift of the Spirit
without any measure or limitations, the Son of God offered Himself
in a unique sacrifice, and made this unique sacrifice and this
unique priesthood the very foundation, indeed the very "form"
of the Church. This priesthood is Christ's, not ours. Not only
have none of us, men or women, any "right" to it, but it is
emphatically not one of the human vocations analogous, even if
superior, to all others. The priest in the Church is not "another"
priest, and the sacrifice he offers is not "another" sacrifice. It is
forever and only Christ's priesthood and Christ's sacrifice, for in
the words of our Prayer of Offertory, "it is Thou who offerest
and Thou who art offered, it is Thou who receivest and Thou who
distributest...." And thus the "institutional" priesthood in the
Church has no "ontology" of its own. It exists only to make Christ
Himself present, to make His unique Priesthood and His unique
Sacrifice the source of the Church's life and the "acquisition" by
men of the Holy Spirit. And if the bearer, the icon, and the fulfiller
of that unique priesthood is man and not woman, it is because
Christ is man and not woman. .. .
Why? This of course is the only important, the only relevant
question, the one that no "culture," no "sociology," no "history,"
and even no "exegesis" can answer. For it can be answered only
by theology in the primordial and essential meaning of that word
in the Church, as the contemplation and vision of the Truth itself,
as communion with the uncreated Divine Light. It is only here,
- 242 -
in this purified and restored vision, that we might begin to under-
stand why the ineffable mystery of the relationship between God
and His creation, between God and His chosen people, between
God and His Church is "essentially" revealed to us as a nuptial
mystery, as the fulfillment of a mystical marriage; why, in other
terms, creation itself, the Church herself, man and the world
themselves, when contemplated in their ultimate truth and destiny,
are revealed to us as a Bride, as a Woman clothed in the sun;
why in the very depth of her love and knowledge, of her joy and
communion, the Church identifies herself with one Woman whom
she exalts as "more honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond
compare more glorious than the Seraphim."
Is it this mystery that has to be "understood" by means of
our broken and fallen world which knows and experiences itself
only in its brokenness and fragmentation, in its tensions and
dichotomies, and which as such is incapable of the ultimate vision?
Or is it this vision and this unique experience that must again
become for us the "means" of our understanding of the world,
the starting point and the very possibility of a truly divine victory
over all that in this world is but human, historical, and cultural?

The article is called "concerning womens ordination" and its in Saint Vladimir's Quarterly 1973.  that's all the specs I have for it...please forgive.  If anyone wants to read it in its entirety just PM me
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« Reply #1446 on: September 09, 2009, 06:39:40 PM »

http://jbburnett.com/resources/schmemann/schmemann-ord-women.pdf

I believe this is the article from Fr. Schmemmann you are referencing. I found the link in one of the first several posts on this subject.

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« Reply #1447 on: September 09, 2009, 06:49:41 PM »

Grace and Peace,

I will only say this once. Do not follow the West... it only leads to death.
And what is "the West"?  Is it a philosophical system or prevailing world view?  Is it a culture and way of life?  Or is it an association of persons?  If you have persons in mind, then congratulations!  You just pronounced an ad hominem against half the world. Roll Eyes

Father Justin Popovic who wrote so much about the West would tend to agree with Ignatius.   The same goes for Dostoyevsky and many Russian authors.
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« Reply #1448 on: September 09, 2009, 06:57:40 PM »

Grace and Peace,

I will only say this once. Do not follow the West... it only leads to death.
And what is "the West"?  Is it a philosophical system or prevailing world view?  Is it a culture and way of life?  Or is it an association of persons?  If you have persons in mind, then congratulations!  You just pronounced an ad hominem against half the world. Roll Eyes

Father Justin Popovic who wrote so much about the West would tend to agree with Ignatius.   The same goes for Dostoyevsky and many Russian authors.
But that still doesn't answer my questions of Ignatius.  What is the "West" to which Ignatius made reference?
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« Reply #1449 on: September 09, 2009, 07:11:12 PM »

If Ignatius thinks along the same lines as I do, he probably shares the sentiments of Dostoyevsky

The Lion and the Mouse: Dostoevsky and the Hideous Schizophrenia of the West

http://www.allacademic.com/one/www/research/index.php?cmd=www_search&offset=0&limit=5&multi_search_search_mode=publication&multi_search_publication_fulltext_mod=fulltext&textfield_submit=true&search_module=multi_search&search=Search&search_field=title_idx&fulltext_search=%3Cb%3EThe+Lion+and+the+Mouse%3A+Dostoevsky+and+the+Hideous+Schizophrenia+of+the+West%3C%2Fb%3E&PHPSESSID=b8119ca7a513ae927e2c0afc8d372ccb

Abstract:

 
It is the argument of this paper that a clearer understanding of the “schizophrenia” described by Sayyid Qutb and other Islamic fundamentalist thinkers might enable Westerners to grapple more effectively with the ideology of Islamic fundamentalism. At the very core of Qutb’s critique of the modern West is his analysis of the West’s contradictory nature – its “distinction between religion and life.” Importantly, there is nothing uniquely Islamic about this message, a point that could not be made more clear than in comparing Qutb’s concern about Western schizophrenia with that of one of the most devout Christian novelists read in the West, Fyodor Dostoevsky. By examining his novel, The Idiot, this paper intends to address Dostoevsky’s understanding of the conflicted nature of the West and its effects upon those who live within it. Ultimately Dostoevsky not only gives us a clear (and disapproving) picture of Western “schizophrenia,” but he comes to a very different conclusion about how to deal with it than did Qutb. He seemed to anticipate the empty promises of the grandiose, utopian philosophies which promised an end to societal contradictions (nationalism, fascism, Marxism, and Islamic fundamentalism). Indeed, he foresaw the one pivotal lesson of the 20th century – any imposed solution to end the modern world’s schizophrenia is far worse than the original condition to begin with.
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« Reply #1450 on: September 09, 2009, 08:43:53 PM »

http://jbburnett.com/resources/schmemann/schmemann-ord-women.pdf

I believe this is the article from Fr. Schmemmann you are referencing. I found the link in one of the first several posts on this subject.

Kevin

Thanks!  that's the one i was referencing!  must have looked right over it...
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« Reply #1451 on: September 09, 2009, 08:56:35 PM »

The Church has made some modifications out of Economia like allowing Baptism with sand if there's no source of water or oil nearby only if the person is near death and is expected to die. 

Are there any canons/letters/statements which state that clearly?

Sorry for having dug the topic up.

Thank you.   Smiley  While I can't cite canon law, the last paragraph of the link below explains how anyone can Baptize a child if there is no Priest available.

http://www.thecathedral.goarch.org/FOSSummary/BaptismBeginningtheJourneytoTheosisSeptember302008.dsp
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« Reply #1452 on: September 10, 2009, 03:11:01 AM »

If Ignatius thinks along the same lines as I do, he probably shares the sentiments of Dostoyevsky

The Lion and the Mouse: Dostoevsky and the Hideous Schizophrenia of the West

http://www.allacademic.com/one/www/research/index.php?cmd=www_search&offset=0&limit=5&multi_search_search_mode=publication&multi_search_publication_fulltext_mod=fulltext&textfield_submit=true&search_module=multi_search&search=Search&search_field=title_idx&fulltext_search=%3Cb%3EThe+Lion+and+the+Mouse%3A+Dostoevsky+and+the+Hideous+Schizophrenia+of+the+West%3C%2Fb%3E&PHPSESSID=b8119ca7a513ae927e2c0afc8d372ccb

Abstract:

 
It is the argument of this paper that a clearer understanding of the “schizophrenia” described by Sayyid Qutb and other Islamic fundamentalist thinkers might enable Westerners to grapple more effectively with the ideology of Islamic fundamentalism. At the very core of Qutb’s critique of the modern West is his analysis of the West’s contradictory nature – its “distinction between religion and life.” Importantly, there is nothing uniquely Islamic about this message, a point that could not be made more clear than in comparing Qutb’s concern about Western schizophrenia with that of one of the most devout Christian novelists read in the West, Fyodor Dostoevsky. By examining his novel, The Idiot, this paper intends to address Dostoevsky’s understanding of the conflicted nature of the West and its effects upon those who live within it. Ultimately Dostoevsky not only gives us a clear (and disapproving) picture of Western “schizophrenia,” but he comes to a very different conclusion about how to deal with it than did Qutb. He seemed to anticipate the empty promises of the grandiose, utopian philosophies which promised an end to societal contradictions (nationalism, fascism, Marxism, and Islamic fundamentalism). Indeed, he foresaw the one pivotal lesson of the 20th century – any imposed solution to end the modern world’s schizophrenia is far worse than the original condition to begin with.

Irish Hermit,

Rather than derail this thread with your continued commentary on what you think Ignatius meant by his use of "the West", why don't you just let him answer for himself what he means and how it relates to this thread?  Maybe then we can get one and only one reply and move on from there.
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« Reply #1453 on: September 10, 2009, 03:38:28 AM »

Thank you.   Smiley  While I can't cite canon law, the last paragraph of the link below explains how anyone can Baptize a child if there is no Priest available.

http://www.thecathedral.goarch.org/FOSSummary/BaptismBeginningtheJourneytoTheosisSeptember302008.dsp

Thank you for your effort but it's not the thing I am looking for. I am looking for something that clearly states that in EO Church baptism can be done with sand in emergency situations and it is valid.

The only thing I found is:
Quote
As to the precise method to be used in a Baptism Rite, the Bible does not really offer much information. Each Church has had to make their own assumptions regarding the interpretations or meanings of certain words in the Bible, and in this way, they have arrived at different procedures. In fact, there is a story in the early Christian Church that accentuates this matter. It seems that a group of men were in the desert, around the second century after Christ, one of whom was a Christian Priest. An elderly man in the group was not yet a Christian and he began to die, and he asked the Christian Priest to Baptize him. The Priest agreed but there was no water available. Due to necessity, the Priest felt that he had to use desert sand in the Baptism Rite! He therefore did, and the man soon died. When the Priest got back to his Church leaders, he Confessed to them that he had done a Sin in performing a Baptism without water, and they then had extensive discussion regarding whether the "sand Baptism" had actually Saved the man or not and whether the Priest should be condemned. They eventually concluded that the Priest had done the right thing and that the sand Baptism had been valid and effective. However, they also made clear that water MUST be used in Baptisms except for such extreme circumstances.
source

Unfortunately I have no idea who is the author and whether he is related in any way to the EO Church.
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« Reply #1454 on: September 10, 2009, 04:26:28 AM »


I am looking for something that clearly states that in EO Church baptism can be done with sand in emergency situations and it is valid.


Well, I was aked this question by my bishop when I was a young man:  what would you do if you're in a desert and no water?   I thought the sensible thing was to read the formula of Baptism, knowing that God will compeletely "honour" it.   In fact I suggested that the intention of the person desiring Baptism was quite enough.  But he insisted,  No! you need to baptize with sand.  So I had a clear statement from a bishop.
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« Reply #1455 on: September 10, 2009, 07:11:28 AM »

I read the same thing as IrishHermit long time ago, so I can attest it. Maybe a justification might be that at least a minimal quantity of humidity (=water) might be present in the desert sand, yet this is just a conjecture. I hope I can find a source for this, but I promise nothing.
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« Reply #1456 on: September 10, 2009, 07:20:15 AM »

Thank you all.
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« Reply #1457 on: September 10, 2009, 10:38:07 AM »

I read the same thing as IrishHermit long time ago, so I can attest it. Maybe a justification might be that at least a minimal quantity of humidity (=water) might be present in the desert sand, yet this is just a conjecture. I hope I can find a source for this, but I promise nothing.

It's likely using the sand as a substitute in order to keep the deep meanings involved manifest at least partially: being immersed (or as close to it as possible) to participate in the Death and Resurrection, being washed (or as close to it as possible) to cleanse from sins, etc.
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« Reply #1458 on: October 20, 2010, 11:15:28 PM »


I am looking for something that clearly states that in EO Church baptism can be done with sand in emergency situations and it is valid.


Well, I was aked this question by my bishop when I was a young man:  what would you do if you're in a desert and no water?   I thought the sensible thing was to read the formula of Baptism, knowing that God will compeletely "honour" it.   In fact I suggested that the intention of the person desiring Baptism was quite enough.  But he insisted,  No! you need to baptize with sand.  So I had a clear statement from a bishop.
Is it better to dig a hole and triply immerse the person in sand for the Baptism, or would simple pouring suffice?
Anyway, what would this have to do with women priests?
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« Reply #1459 on: November 21, 2012, 07:38:33 PM »

Since someone mentioned this, I thought might as well bump it.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48128.msg839166.html#msg839166
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« Reply #1460 on: November 21, 2012, 07:43:56 PM »

Since someone mentioned this, I thought might as well bump it.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48128.msg839166.html#msg839166

33 pages.

Oh good.
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« Reply #1461 on: November 21, 2012, 07:52:39 PM »


With tags for both "Godwin's Law" and "cheval mort"! Hordes of SS troopers interrogating dead horses lay within!
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« Reply #1462 on: November 21, 2012, 07:53:18 PM »

The first page is great. Gonna be on it for a while.

Thanks Isa for bumping it.
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« Reply #1463 on: July 10, 2013, 11:09:02 AM »

A Nearly Forgotten History: Women Deacons in the Armenian Church
http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2013/07/a-nearly-forgotten-history-women-deacons-in-the-armenian-church/
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« Reply #1464 on: July 10, 2013, 02:10:51 PM »


Thanks for posting this truly remarkable article.
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« Reply #1465 on: July 10, 2013, 11:07:17 PM »

The Church has made some modifications out of Economia like allowing Baptism with sand if there's no source of water or oil nearby only if the person is near death and is expected to die. 

Are there any canons/letters/statements which state that clearly?

Sorry for having dug the topic up.

IIRC, St. Basil the Great mentions aerbaptism in one of his letters or canons and that, if the baby survive, a priest is to regularize the baptism.
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« Reply #1466 on: July 11, 2013, 06:08:41 PM »

The Church has made some modifications out of Economia like allowing Baptism with sand if there's no source of water or oil nearby only if the person is near death and is expected to die. 

Are there any canons/letters/statements which state that clearly?

Sorry for having dug the topic up.

IIRC, St. Basil the Great mentions aerbaptism in one of his letters or canons and that, if the baby survive, a priest is to regularize the baptism.

yup! 
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« Reply #1467 on: October 01, 2013, 04:08:41 PM »

When the Bishop tonsures a Reader, he says "Son, the first rank of priesthood is the reader. It behooveth thee therefore to peruse the Scriptures daily...". If the nature of the job excludes women from the priesthood (Priests have to offer sacrifices, but women make life, and it would be an aberration of the female role to offer a sacrifice and end life, even if only symbolically), then there is no reason that women should be ordained. If the issue of weather to allow women as altar servers in ordinary circumstances is  controversial, then there should be no question that women should NOT be ordained to the priesthood, because the priesthood is a larger office with more responsibilities than that of an altar server.
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« Reply #1468 on: October 02, 2013, 04:28:40 PM »

When the Bishop tonsures a Reader, he says "Son, the first rank of priesthood is the reader. It behooveth thee therefore to peruse the Scriptures daily...". If the nature of the job excludes women from the priesthood (Priests have to offer sacrifices, but women make life, and it would be an aberration of the female role to offer a sacrifice and end life, even if only symbolically), then there is no reason that women should be ordained. If the issue of weather to allow women as altar servers in ordinary circumstances is  controversial, then there should be no question that women should NOT be ordained to the priesthood, because the priesthood is a larger office with more responsibilities than that of an altar server.

I agree with your conclusion. However, your argument is not a theological one and, as Metropolitan Kallistos has pointed out, this issue is still open--as a matter of theology. As a matter of practice, priestly functions have been assigned to males from the very beginning--indeed, going back to our Jewish roots. And, only priests and bishops have those functions; readers, sub-deacons, acolytes, deacons and deaconesses do not, as liturgical functions should not be conflated with priestly ones. To illustrate, during the Divine Liturgy (the common work of the laos), the people finish  some prayers by giving their assent, by saying amen. They also join in petitions by chanting/singing Lord have mercy, To Thee oh Lord and Grant this oh Lord. These are all liturgical functions that are done by males and females alike because we are all part of the Royal Priesthood, part of the Laos. Going back to the Bishop's prayer when he tonsures a reader, the phrase "the first step of priesthood is the reader" should be understood only as a wish for the reader to consider becoming a priest and not as a requirement. If not, this sort of approach, IMHO, reflects contamination by the West (in this case by Roman Catholicism on the Russian Church) and should not be taken as normative for the Church as a whole.
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Tags: ordination of women priestess Ordination priesthood priests deaconesses deacons cheval mort=dead horse laos laity 
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