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Author Topic: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church  (Read 176041 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #450 on: May 07, 2006, 12:43:51 AM »

You are willing to make public pronouncements about the history of canon law and its application in the Church and you don't even know how to find one of the most basic collections of Church canons? Have you even read the Pedalion (not to mention the Syntagma!)?
Hey, go easy on Bizzlebin. He belongs to a Non-Chalcedon Church (Coptic), so why would he have read the Pedalion or the Syntagma or any of our Patristic texts from Chalcedon onwards?
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« Reply #451 on: May 07, 2006, 12:50:44 AM »

This sounds rather Arian. Christ is God, not a "Personification" of God. Christ is One Person, not a "Personification" of another. At any rate, by "human part" I suppose you mean His "Human Nature"- which He shares with all humanity, in that He is "a man like us in all things". So if His Human Nature is the Image of God, then so must ours. And this resonates with what we know from Genesis in that God created us in His "Image and Likeness".
So everyone is an Icon of God.
God is essentially unknowable, and thus indescribable. He thus shouldn't be depicted or described.* However He made Himself known. He first made Himself known through 'creation'. And then He made Himself viewable as Jesus, and therefore in both cases He is describable. In that way He is an Image of Himself in that we can now know what is essentially unknowable. However, He is not 'just' an image of Himself. He is more than that because He is both man and God. But the fact that He took on an image, so that He could be seen makes Him a living icon.

We are made in His image, it is true. But just because I draw a picture of the Mona Lisa, (that is in the image of the Mona Lisa) doesn't make it the Mona Lisa. Both are images of the same thing, but aren't the same thing.

So in one sense we are all made in God's image, it is true. But God is not a Father, because of gender, so a man, and a woman, can be said to be both in the image of God, despite the very obvious sexual differences between us, and between us and God. The 'prohibition' on women priests is not because women are any less in the image of God than are men. We have different roles. God has made these for us. They are not to be confused. We continue to both be partners in the image of God, but we don't do the same things. Women are not Fathers. Women are not priests. There are some things we have in common, as I've just noted; both being eqaully the image of God, and therefore we can do things in common without confusing these differences. Women can be missionaries, and saints. Inspiration of the church is the Theotokos. And then again, no man can even be/could have been the Mother of Christ.

Jesus is fully God and is fully human. If you want to discuss the 'properties' of him, rather than prop up your 'evidence-light' approach; speculation on the ordination of women as priests, so be it. Though I pop in and out of this forum, as I'm simultaneously on three different fora.


*It follows on that it is our tradition that the Church doesn't do pictures of God the Father (as Catholics do).
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« Reply #452 on: May 07, 2006, 12:53:56 AM »

The canons from the seven Orthodox Ecumenical Councils, as well as the Canons from the Local Councils and Church Fathers which have been accepted into Orthodox canon law via Ecumenical Councils, are all available on this page (click on the "Textbooks" button, and scroll down to "Canonical Law"). But reading the canons is pretty pointless, actually. Most people are going to treat the canons like the Scripture and Fathers are treated... if it agrees with you, quote it! If not, eh, forget about it.
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« Reply #453 on: May 07, 2006, 12:58:41 AM »

You are willing to make public pronouncements about the history of canon law and its application in the Church and you don't even know how to find one of the most basic collections of Church canons? Have you even read the Pedalion (not to mention the Syntagma!)?

Why not just list an on-line source, if you knew of one?

A list of books
http://www2.orthodoxwiki.org/Online_books
The Pedalion itself
http://aroundomaha.com/cn/stjohn/canons1.html
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« Reply #454 on: May 07, 2006, 01:04:24 AM »

Hey, go easy on Bizzlebin. He belongs to a Non-Chalcedon Church (Coptic), so why would he have read the Pedalion or the Syntagma or any of our Patristic texts from Chalcedon onwards?
Actually, I think Bizzlebin has identified himself as OCA, which is a Chalcedonian church--it better be, because I'm in it.
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« Reply #455 on: May 07, 2006, 01:06:32 AM »

It follows on that it is our tradition that the Church doesn't do pictures of God the Father (as Catholics do).
Oh really?
Someone should tell Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Raleigh North Carolina:



Yet another "tradition" bites the dust?
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« Reply #456 on: May 07, 2006, 01:07:25 AM »

Whilst we're giving cites about sites... two other great sources

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
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« Reply #457 on: May 07, 2006, 01:08:40 AM »

Actually, I think Bizzlebin has identified himself as OCA, which is a Chalcedonian church--it better be, because I'm in it.
Hey, you're right! Well then, absolutely NO EXCUSES! Cheesy
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« Reply #458 on: May 07, 2006, 01:09:40 AM »

Oh really?
Someone should tell Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Raleigh North Carolina:



Yet another "tradition" bites the dust?

Do you have  a web-source for that picture? I'd just am keen to check out your 'evidences' following the 'Jewish Council of Australia' debacle
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« Reply #459 on: May 07, 2006, 01:11:46 AM »

Do you have  a web-source for that picture?
Sure do:
http://www.holytrinityraleigh.org/photo%20tour/Photo%20Tour.htm
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« Reply #460 on: May 07, 2006, 01:12:34 AM »

*It follows on that it is our tradition that the Church doesn't do pictures of God the Father (as Catholics do).
Look at some Russian icons of the Crucifixion and you'll see the Father pictured at the top of the Cross as an old man with a long white beard.  You would be correct in calling this uncanonical--at least this is what I was told by an iconographer friend of mine.  But I've seen this.  I even have one of these icons at home.

BTW, this same iconographer friend informed me that it is permissible to depict God the Father in icons, just so long as He is pictured as a circular field of blue light.  The rule of which I am aware is that each Person of the Holy Trinity can be pictured in icons only in the form in which He revealed Himself to us historically: the Father as a field of light (think Moses and Mt. Sinai), the Son as Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit as a dove at the baptism of Christ or as tongues of fire at Pentecost.
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« Reply #461 on: May 07, 2006, 01:15:11 AM »

Look at some Russian icons of the Crucifixion and you'll see the Father pictured at the top of the Cross as an old man with a long white beard.  You would be correct in calling this uncanonical--at least this is what I was told by an iconographer friend of mine.  But I've seen this.  I even have one of these icons at home.
The Wonderworking "Kursk Root" Icon also has God the Father depicted at the top- apparently this isn't a problem for God, because He doesn't mind working wonders through it.
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« Reply #462 on: May 07, 2006, 01:20:15 AM »

John 1:18

Those naughty Greeks! It has been my understanding that throughout our history the Trinity has been depicted allegorically, often by three angels
http://amsterdam.park.org/Guests/Russia/moscow/sergiev/tr.jpg

Or on occasion a 'hand of God' emerging from the clouds is used.
Even your source church's homepage does this...
http://www.holytrinityraleigh.org/

Do they have women priests?
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« Reply #463 on: May 07, 2006, 01:23:20 AM »

John 1:18
Those naughty Greeks!
And Russians (see above).

But yes, there was some dispute about this (and at least one schism). Vladimir Moss wrote an interesting article about it:
http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20ICON%20OF%20THE%20HOLY%20TRINITY.htm
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« Reply #464 on: May 07, 2006, 01:27:57 AM »

Look at some Russian icons of the Crucifixion and you'll see the Father pictured at the top of the Cross as an old man with a long white beard.  You would be correct in calling this uncanonical--at least this is what I was told by an iconographer friend of mine.  But I've seen this.  I even have one of these icons at home.

BTW, this same iconographer friend informed me that it is permissible to depict God the Father in icons, just so long as He is pictured as a circular field of blue light.  The rule of which I am aware is that each Person of the Holy Trinity can be pictured in icons only in the form in which He revealed Himself to us historically: the Father as a field of light (think Moses and Mt. Sinai), the Son as Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit as a dove at the baptism of Christ or as tongues of fire at Pentecost.
That has always been my understanding. The only way I can think that it could be done is because Jesus said...
Matthew 11:27
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

So that in knowing Jesus we have now come to know the Father. However it does seem to be a modernist trend too.
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« Reply #465 on: May 07, 2006, 01:30:08 AM »

However it does seem to be a modernist trend too.
Perhaps, but "modernity" doesn't explain the Russian Wonderworking Kursk Root Icon depicting God the Father.
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« Reply #466 on: May 07, 2006, 01:31:59 AM »

And Russians (see above).

But yes, there was some dispute about this (and at least one schism). Vladimir Moss wrote an interesting article about it:
http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20ICON%20OF%20THE%20HOLY%20TRINITY.htm

That's a very interesting article (from having only skimmed over it). I don't know how they quibble about it depicting him symbolically, instead of realistically, all the icons I always thought were rather 'unreal' which is what made them special.

Also, I read elsewhere that some suggest the depictions of the three angels is NOT the Trinity, but of Jesus and two angels. I've always understood it to be representations of all members of the Trinity.
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« Reply #467 on: May 07, 2006, 01:33:14 AM »

Perhaps, but "modernity" doesn't explain the Russian Wonderworking Kursk Root Icon depicting God the Father.
The Kursk Root Icon was found in the 13th century.
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« Reply #468 on: May 07, 2006, 01:34:06 AM »

Perhaps, but "modernity" doesn't explain the Russian Wonderworking Kursk Root Icon depicting God the Father.
Sorry, yes, I keep referring to the Greek icons you cited. I'm still catching up with the Russian evidence you're presenting. I'll print out the arguments from "THE ICON OF THE HOLY TRINITY" By: Vladimir Moss and read them on the train to/from work tomorrow
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« Reply #469 on: May 07, 2006, 01:38:08 AM »

I supppse the defenders of the Kursk icon would still use

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

That God the Father can be 'known' in icon through Jesus being God made Man.
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« Reply #470 on: May 07, 2006, 01:38:33 AM »

Also, I read elsewhere that some suggest the depictions of the three angels is NOT the Trinity, but of Jesus and two angels. I've always understood it to be representations of all members of the Trinity.
The depiction of the Three Angels is really a depiction of the three angels to whom the patriarch Abraham offered hospitality in Genesis 18:1-33.  AFAIK, the three angels are not seen as BEING the Holy Trinity; rather, they are seen as PREFIGURING the Holy Trinity, hence the Trinitarian symbolism of the icon.


Now, what's this digression have to do with the issue of the Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #471 on: May 07, 2006, 01:44:23 AM »

I supppse the defenders of the Kursk icon would still use
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
That God the Father can be 'known' in icon through Jesus being God made Man.
But in the Kursk Root Icon, all Three Persons of the Holy Trinity are depicted individually and simultaneously.
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« Reply #472 on: May 07, 2006, 01:51:11 AM »

Now, what's this digression have to do with the issue of the Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church?
Well, if we can't agree on what the Tradition regarding the depiction of God the Father is, how is this dispute to be settled other than by an Oecumenical Council. Just like the dispute about what we should see as the Church's Tradition about women and the priesthood.
(Yes, I was leading you all up the garden path!)
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« Reply #473 on: May 07, 2006, 01:56:46 AM »

Well, if we can't agree on what the Tradition regarding the depiction of God the Father is, how is this dispute to be settled other than by an Oecumenical Council. Just like the dispute about what we should see as the Church's Tradition about women and the priesthood.
(Yes, I was leading you all up the garden path!)
Okay, I see where you're going with this.  Good analogy.
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« Reply #474 on: May 07, 2006, 04:39:05 AM »

Well, if we can't agree on what the Tradition regarding the depiction of God the Father is, how is this dispute to be settled other than by an Oecumenical Council. Just like the dispute about what we should see as the Church's Tradition about women and the priesthood.
(Yes, I was leading you all up the garden path!)
Actually that's a really poor analogy. Unfortunately it's a tactic that you continually have tried; that you've already tried with the covering of women's heads. You're trying again to argue about one thing by discussing something entirely different. You also did it earlier by failing to distinguish between 'traditions' and 'Holy Tradition' (such as with pews being in churches).

Who in the church is pushing for the ordination of women into the priesthood? You're the only one raising it here. It is otherwise a non-issue. You construct a problem based on the speculation (itself) that there is confusion about it. By leaps and bounds you tie this 'unsolved thing' to any other number of things you might be able to prove that are problems.

In other words faced with your own opinion that there's 'doubt' on this issue; based in fact on the speculation that there must be doubts on the issue. It's a self-fulfilling argument then. I could say "No church council has ruled categorically that children/minors can't be priests", (this itself may be proven a bad analogy, if in fact there is such a ruling). And the mere fact that there is no ruling, would cause me to declare, as you have that it is an 'issue', even though it's not because I'm the only one raising it.

And further, you do all this by ignoring all the evidence put to you on this issue, by claiming that no one can ever really know the minds of the fathers in this regards. So faced with evidence, you just dismiss it summarily, because it gets in the way of your suppositions.

So in summary you create an 'issue', declare that it is, because it 'is' because you've declared it to be!

However you've opened my eyes to a number of things such as that regarding iconographical depictions of the Fathers. I'm not even sure if this qualifies as an 'issue' either, because I'm unsure if it's a matter of great debate in the church as a whole.

*- is there an age limit on priests?
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« Reply #475 on: May 07, 2006, 08:15:02 AM »

Why not just list an on-line source, if you knew of one?

A list of books
http://www2.orthodoxwiki.org/Online_books
The Pedalion itself
http://aroundomaha.com/cn/stjohn/canons1.html

The 85 without commentaries hardly constitutes the Pedalion.

Do you have  a web-source for that picture? I'd just am keen to check out your 'evidences' following the 'Jewish Council of Australia' debacle

NEWS FLASH: The Entire Corpus of Human Knowledge does not exist online...this is especially true of theological texts and sources. If you really want to do meaningful research you really are going to have to crack a book at some point. Google can be useful, but it's not a panacea.
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« Reply #476 on: May 07, 2006, 08:35:57 AM »

The 85 without commentaries hardly constitutes the Pedalion.
If you wanted to list a better site, you'd have done so. The person earlier asked for an on-line source. If you think it's insufficient, why not be positive and list a better site? But then I don't think that was your intent, hence... drum-roll...
NEWS FLASH: The Entire Corpus of Human Knowledge does not exist online...this is especially true of theological texts and sources. If you really want to do meaningful research you really are going to have to crack a book at some point. Google can be useful, but it's not a panacea.
Ignoring the truism made sarcasm google is not a search engine I use anyway. I use meta-searchengines, such as www.ithaki.net and www.ixquick.com, since we're about 'educating' each other, meta-searchengines search through search engines so that using ithaki is like using 12 search engines or so, all at once.
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« Reply #477 on: May 07, 2006, 08:47:05 AM »

GiC,
Whose signature on this forum once read: "Never give a sword to a man who can't dance."?
I can't remember...

Well, perhaps we should never put a "can(n)on" in the hands of inexperienced artillerymen.
They should at least understand what a canon is first. Here's a good introduction:
The Canonical Tradition of the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #478 on: May 07, 2006, 09:11:36 AM »

I use meta-searchengines, such as www.ithaki.net and www.ixquick.com, since we're about 'educating' each other, meta-searchengines search through search engines so that using ithaki is like using 12 search engines or so, all at once.
Which are all still completely useless if the information you are looking for is not on the internet, but only in books.
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« Reply #479 on: May 07, 2006, 01:01:28 PM »

Which are all still completely useless if the information you are looking for is not on the internet, but only in books.

At least someone got my point...which had absolutely nothing to do with what search engine one is using.
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« Reply #480 on: May 07, 2006, 01:13:40 PM »

What happened to the original topic of this thread? The ordination of women?
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« Reply #481 on: May 07, 2006, 01:19:48 PM »

What happened to the original topic of this thread? The ordination of women?

I think all or most of the arguments have been hashed out, and we heard both sides of the debate.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #482 on: May 07, 2006, 04:29:45 PM »

Hey, you're right! Well then, absolutely NO EXCUSES! Cheesy

My library is growing, don't worry. I am still only a catechuman, in high school at that. With the cost and availability of ancient texts, it's no wonder I don't have every single one...
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« Reply #483 on: May 07, 2006, 04:41:09 PM »

The canons from the seven Orthodox Ecumenical Councils, as well as the Canons from the Local Councils and Church Fathers which have been accepted into Orthodox canon law via Ecumenical Councils, are all available on this page (click on the "Textbooks" button, and scroll down to "Canonical Law"). But reading the canons is pretty pointless, actually. Most people are going to treat the canons like the Scripture and Fathers are treated... if it agrees with you, quote it! If not, eh, forget about it.

Thanks a bunch for that link. I have read all the Canons from the first Seven Ecumenical Councils, but I couldn't find anything from the Eighth and Ninth until now!
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« Reply #484 on: May 07, 2006, 04:55:45 PM »

Our priest's son was ordained a priest at our parish recently.  Bishop ANTOUN told us about another priest's son whose hand his father kissed after his ordination.  When the son protested, the father told him that he was not kissing his hand but the hand of Christ.

Speaking of kissing a priest's hand . . . I know an Antiochian priest who just about freaks out if you try to kiss his hand.  The first time I met him he yanked his hand away from my face so fast as I was trying to kiss it, that he almost broke my nose.  (OK, no big nose jokes)
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« Reply #485 on: May 07, 2006, 05:20:57 PM »

Speaking about iconographic portrayal of the Father...

So that in knowing Jesus we have now come to know the Father. However it does seem to be a modernist trend too.

The earliest examples of the Iconographic portrayal of the Father that I have seen are on Mt Athos, whereat one will find such Icons quite frequently in monasteries of all ethnic origins. One will also find iconographic portrayals of the "All Seeing Eye" of the God. Many of these icons date anywhere from the 1700s to the end of the 19th century (during which time these kinds of Icons were very popular...I have seen a 1905 printing of the Pedalion itself with this kind of "Holy Trinity" Icon on the cover page). I've also seen many Churches and monasteries in Romania with similar depictions of the Trinity, and several of the lay prayer books I bought there had the now-naughty Holy Trinity on their cover. It's quite a popular Icon throughout the Balkans.

As for "modernist trends": When George Gabriel wrote an excellent little book against its canonicity and legitimacy, HE was condemned by some Athonites as a modernist.
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« Reply #486 on: May 07, 2006, 05:41:39 PM »

One will also find iconographic portrayals of the "All Seeing Eye" of the God.

I saw that in a Coptic Church in Queens.  That's an interesting one.

God bless.

Mina
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« Reply #487 on: May 07, 2006, 06:18:32 PM »

In other words faced with your own opinion that there's 'doubt' on this issue; based in fact on the speculation that there must be doubts on the issue. It's a self-fulfilling argument then. I could say "No church council has ruled categorically that children/minors can't be priests", (this itself may be proven a bad analogy, if in fact there is such a ruling). And the mere fact that there is no ruling, would cause me to declare, as you have that it is an 'issue', even though it's not because I'm the only one raising it...

*- is there an age limit on priests?

This actually touches on one of the fundamental motivations (the spirit!) of the canonical tradition's stipulations about potential ordinands, viz. they must be above reproach. Of course, this standard comes from St. Paul himself, who spelled out the "qualifications" for a Bishop in 1 Timothy 3. The canons develop this idea in both a personal and a social way. Thus, the potential cleric should actually possess a moral life AND should be thought to possess such a life by the community.  

The former part comes naturally to us today -- of course the priest should be moral! But the canons are very concerned that the priesthood as an office, and the authority that comes from that office, not be diminished in stature by publicly known sin/scandal/compromise to the world, e.g. having cohabited before marriage, getting a divorce, going into or owning a bar (eventually, even owning a business!). All of these are either forbidden to the priest or constitute an "absolute" impediment to his ordination. Thus, the canons are concerned with far more than personal moral character. What outright, necessary sin is there in owning a business? Yet, this could be perceived by members of the Church (and the public) to compromise the priest's integrity, to present conflicts of interests and favoritism, and, ultimately, to undermine the spiritual authority of the priesthood as an institution. Thus, so that the priest might be "above reproach" -- i.e. there be nothing that anyone could reproach him for -- the priest must conform to certain standards of public decorum.

After liturgy today, I was speaking with a learned priest about this, and he pointed out that AGE and MALENESS fall under this same category. For the priest to be above reproach, he must be of the sort which society defines as a mature adult with public standing. A certain child, for example, may be quite holy and Christ-like, yet he is not above reproach, since many could reproach him and his "leadership" as infantile, immature and inappropriate.

Enter the gender thing. Even in today's society, I fear that being a woman is not, in this sense, "above reproach." Whether or not this SHOULD be the case is another matter, but, so long as such public perceptions persist, it would go against the spirit of the canons to introduce female priests. (As we have seen on this board, MANY Orthodox would reproach such a priest!). If one is searching for theological reasons, I fear this doesn't explain much, but it is, in fact, a rather ecclesial and pastoral insight that reminds us of one of the key concerns of the canonical aspects of priesthood.
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« Reply #488 on: May 07, 2006, 07:04:15 PM »

NEWS FLASH: The Entire Corpus of Human Knowledge does not exist online...this is especially true of theological texts and sources. If you really want to do meaningful research you really are going to have to crack a book at some point. Google can be useful, but it's not a panacea.

You mean I don't know everything about Church history, theology, canon law, liturgy and praxis after reading Ware, Chadwick, Kelley, Pelikan, Meyendorff, Schmemann and Behr!?

I may have to read primary sources!!!? Primary sources other than the likes of Eusebius and Socrates Scholaticus!?

What's the you say? I may also have to do more than give these sources a quick once-over in English? I may have to learn about context, textual criticism, literary genres, ancient languages and the world of Late Antiquity?

Bah!

(All sarcasm aside, this is an important point. Sure, this is an Internet forum and ignorance is fine. Being wrong is fine. We all fall into both categories frequently. But doesn't it give one caution about one's suitability to correct, contradict and quickly pontificate on certain matters when outside of one's competence? It does for me. I'm being serious here. This is not a personal attack, but, rather, a question about the prudent use of Internet resources and discussion, a question that applies to all of us. No! It's not even a question -- it's a plea, an exhortation, a bit of advice. When I was a "well-read" 16-year-old convert, I thought I knew a lot about matters Church-related, but quickly discovered that the 50 or so books I had read and my time on the Internet didn't even begin to break the ice. I eventually left the Orthodox Internet and availed myself of actual sources. Ten years later, I only consider myself competent in ONE specific era of ONE region...ah, nevermind...I'm trying to encourage people to head to the library, to the peer-reviewed publications and journals, to the primary sources and the primary languages, etc...without that, we just end up repeating the same old parochial narratives of mediocrity and confusion.)
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« Reply #489 on: May 07, 2006, 07:38:43 PM »

Quote
Whose signature on this forum once read: "Never give a sword to a man who can't dance."?
I can't remember...

That was Demetri!  I haven't seen him post in ages though....

Just to add my two cents:

About icons depicting the Father... I saw plenty of those on the Holy Mountain.   I also saw icons depicting Christ in non-human form.  I also saw very "modern" style Russian iconography.  The icon of Panagia that St. Seraphim of Sarov had in his cell was very "modern" - so much so that today's ultra-Orthodox would reject it, I'm sure.  
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« Reply #490 on: May 07, 2006, 08:06:28 PM »

Enter the gender thing. Even in today's society, I fear that being a woman is not, in this sense, "above reproach." Whether or not this SHOULD be the case is another matter, but, so long as such public perceptions persist, it would go against the spirit of the canons to introduce female priests. (As we have seen on this board, MANY Orthodox would reproach such a priest!). If one is searching for theological reasons, I fear this doesn't explain much, but it is, in fact, a rather ecclesial and pastoral insight that reminds us of one of the key concerns of the canonical aspects of priesthood.

A valid point and the one that caused me to have reservations about the ordination of women for quite some time; but, I would extend this point to say that if the failure to ordain women is scandalous then it too is wrong. However, the more familiar I become with the situation of the Church in Greece and it's relation to the state, especially in the light of the late scandals, the Church appears to be slipping into irrelevancy. A majority of Greeks support the disestablishment of the Church, an increasing number of youth are viewing the Church as out of touch with modern Society, and while I have very little knowledge of eastern European countries, I do know that secularism and atheism are influential and, in many cases, growing...especially amongst the youth. Looking from the perspective of America, an interesting statistic I came across is that in 1993 63% of Catholics supported the Ordination of Women, and I cannot believe that the statistic would be substantially lower amongst the Greek Church. However, I will admit that this is simple observation and not a scientific study, it would probably be most prudent to initiate a sociological study to determine the acceptance of women in the deaconate and presbyterate in various countries, reigons, and contexts; if anyone has a reference to such data from Greece or elsewhere I would be most interested in seeing it.

Of course, prudence is paramount in all actions. Even if the Ordination of Women were to be instituted, I do not believe it should be done over night, but rather a reestablishment of the order of the Deaconess should come first, which should be prevalent and accepted throughout most Church before moving to the next step. One would start in convents, of course, move on to cosmopolitan parishes, and expand from there. So while a woman being ordained to the priesthood tomorrow may be scandalous and problematic, the slightest amount of prudence would negate this problem and, ultimately, if any persons on the fringes did to schism, the affect would be nominal and probably even less of a concern than the old calendarist movement; as the change in calendar was abrupt and immediately affected everyone, yet was accomplished with minimal and acceptable cost (of course the desired benefits, reunion with one or more of the western Churches, have not yet been achieved; but it takes time to heal a thousand years of schism so I believe it is premature to pass judgement on those grounds. Furthermore, the effects of the schism of the old calendarists from the State Church have been diminishing, revealing the cost to be far less than what we once thought it would be.)

You mean I don't know everything about Church history, theology, canon law, liturgy and praxis after reading Ware, Chadwick, Kelley, Pelikan, Meyendorff, Schmemann and Behr!?

I may have to read primary sources!!!? Primary sources other than the likes of Eusebius and Socrates Scholaticus!?

What's the you say? I may also have to do more than give these sources a quick once-over in English? I may have to learn about context, textual criticism, literary genres, ancient languages and the world of Late Antiquity?

Bah!

LOL Grin

Quote
(All sarcasm aside, this is an important point. Sure, this is an Internet forum and ignorance is fine. Being wrong is fine. We all fall into both categories frequently. But doesn't it give one caution about one's suitability to correct, contradict and quickly pontificate on certain matters when outside of one's competence? It does for me. I'm being serious here. This is not a personal attack, but, rather, a question about the prudent use of Internet resources and discussion, a question that applies to all of us. No! It's not even a question -- it's a plea, an exhortation, a bit of advice. When I was a "well-read" 16-year-old convert, I thought I knew a lot about matters Church-related, but quickly discovered that the 50 or so books I had read and my time on the Internet didn't even begin to break the ice. I eventually left the Orthodox Internet and availed myself of actual sources. Ten years later, I only consider myself competent in ONE specific era of ONE region...ah, nevermind...I'm trying to encourage people to head to the library, to the peer-reviewed publications and journals, to the primary sources and the primary languages, etc...without that, we just end up repeating the same old parochial narratives of mediocrity and confusion.)

Very good point, though I will point out that I have found the internet to be a better forum for the practice rhetoric than theology...which also can be both fun and educational Wink
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« Reply #491 on: May 07, 2006, 08:59:53 PM »

I would go on in this whole re-enactment issue, and I still didn't change my mind, but I'll say it:

"UNCLE!!!"
No hard feelings, I hope.
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« Reply #492 on: May 07, 2006, 11:05:37 PM »

What happened to the original topic of this thread? The ordination of women?
Unable to prove an argument some have branched out in order to prove other things, and therefore hope to have gained the OP by proxy
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« Reply #493 on: May 07, 2006, 11:07:48 PM »

Which are all still completely useless if the information you are looking for is not on the internet, but only in books.
Some people must have a low opinion of other people's intelligence... if they insist on stating the exceptionally obvious.
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« Reply #494 on: May 07, 2006, 11:28:48 PM »

No hard feelings, I hope.

No, no hard feelings.  On the positive side, I enjoyed from this discussion and learned a lot.

God bless you. Smiley

Mina
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