Author Topic: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church  (Read 378026 times)

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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1620 on: June 09, 2015, 10:29:12 PM »
Orthodox do not allow women to preach in church, do they?  I seriously doubt they do consider in most Orthodox churches they don't even allow women to be readers
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1621 on: June 09, 2015, 10:34:05 PM »
Orthodox do not allow women to preach in church, do they?  I seriously doubt they do consider in most Orthodox churches they don't even allow women to be readers
I guess it depends on how you define "preach." I watch Greek ecclesiastical television and you can see women giving lectures.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1622 on: June 09, 2015, 10:49:25 PM »
Saint Nino aside, I don't think we have any lay preachers today in the Orthodox church, at least not operating in a capacity sanctioned by the hierarchy.

My mom's aunt is one.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1623 on: June 10, 2015, 12:03:34 PM »
That's interesting. Where and when do they preach?
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Offline Orest

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1624 on: June 10, 2015, 01:11:40 PM »
Orthodox do not allow women to preach in church, do they?  I seriously doubt they do consider in most Orthodox churches they don't even allow women to be readers
Where did you get that idea?  Ever been to Russia and seen all the women cantors?  They even have special courses (3 year I believe) in the Russian seminaries for  women  to become choir directors and cantors.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1625 on: June 10, 2015, 08:20:04 PM »
That's interesting. Where and when do they preach?

My mom's aunt will preach at the invitation of (or the order of) the local bishop or priest at churches after Vespers and/or during or after the Liturgy (from the nave), at other parish activities, at retreats, at meetings of women's groups, Bible studies, etc.  She also ministers to families in trouble and collects money and goods which she distributes to the poor whom she finds on the streets or who come to her home.  Basically, she does the work of a NT "widow" or a "deaconess" (without the liturgical roles), but she does them as an episcopally commissioned preacher.   
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1626 on: June 10, 2015, 08:40:59 PM »
Mother Irini, who is well on her way to be canonized one day in the Coptic Church, also preached even to presbyters who came to hear her even though she wished for the presbyters to be the one to preach and to sit in a higher seat in her presence.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 08:43:15 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1627 on: June 11, 2015, 11:03:55 AM »
I think it'd be a good idea to have more Orthodox lay preachers (of either gender) who preach in public settings, not just specifically Orthodox ones.

There are a lot of college kids whose only encounter with Christianity is from folks like Brother Jed and his protégé Brother Dean, and they assume guys like him are representative of the faith, and acquire an understandably negative opinion of it as a result.

Perhaps if there were more St. Nino's, and fewer Brother Jeds, then maybe college kids wouldn't have soured so much on Christianity.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 11:26:55 AM by Minnesotan »
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Offline IreneOlinyk

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1628 on: June 11, 2015, 07:57:25 PM »
I think it'd be a good idea to have more Orthodox lay preachers (of either gender) who preach in public settings, not just specifically Orthodox ones.

There are a lot of college kids whose only encounter with Christianity is from folks like Brother Jed and his protégé Brother Dean, and they assume guys like him are representative of the faith, and acquire an understandably negative opinion of it as a result.

Perhaps if there were more St. Nino's, and fewer Brother Jeds, then maybe college kids wouldn't have soured so much on Christianity.
Good idea about more lay preachers.  We can follow the example of the orthodox Church of Greece with their lay preachers and lay theologians who are very well educated and academic scholars.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1629 on: June 12, 2015, 02:14:33 AM »
The Church is already feminine by its very nature in that it is personified as a bride. Ordaining women to the priesthood would ironically do more to create an imbalance between the genders than to create a balance. By having a feminine entity whose primary office is masculine, a balance is created as both genders play a role. By having a feminine entity with a feminine and/or mixed primary office, a matriarchy is created and males are left out. The reason people want female priests is because they don't have a good understanding of our ecclesiology to begin with.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1630 on: June 12, 2015, 03:12:53 AM »
The Church is already feminine by its very nature in that it is personified as a bride. Ordaining women to the priesthood would ironically do more to create an imbalance between the genders than to create a balance. By having a feminine entity whose primary office is masculine, a balance is created as both genders play a role. By having a feminine entity with a feminine and/or mixed primary office, a matriarchy is created and males are left out. The reason people want female priests is because they don't have a good understanding of our ecclesiology to begin with.
OUR ecclesiology? I thought you hated God and had all but rejected the Church? Are you Orthodox when it's convenient for you but a hater of God when it's not?
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1631 on: June 13, 2015, 03:55:21 PM »
I think it'd be a good idea to have more Orthodox lay preachers (of either gender) who preach in public settings, not just specifically Orthodox ones.

There are a lot of college kids whose only encounter with Christianity is from folks like Brother Jed and his protégé Brother Dean, and they assume guys like him are representative of the faith, and acquire an understandably negative opinion of it as a result.

Perhaps if there were more St. Nino's, and fewer Brother Jeds, then maybe college kids wouldn't have soured so much on Christianity.

Please, not that nonsense.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1632 on: June 16, 2015, 09:08:45 AM »
Yes. The article has the classic giving life-taking life distinction as the explanation for the difference of roles between men and women, and why women can't become priests. In fact, I don't know why this is even an issue, becasue I'm not sure as to who would have an interest in seeing this put into action. There are many roles that women do that men can't, so it's only fair that it should be the other way around as well for other roles. If anyone wants to prove that female priesthood is needed, please present proofs and reasons why, because otherwise, this is a moot point.

Interesting; women give life, men take life? That almost reminds me of Mary Daly, the Catholic radical feminist who believed that men were necrophilic (loving death) and women biophilic (loving life). Which is certainly ironic.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1633 on: July 11, 2015, 09:21:49 AM »
No, I do not mean it in that sense. Historically, priests made animal sacrifices by killing the animal in question to be offered. That is why I mentioned taking life, and why it would be a contradiction for a woman to be a priest because she would be giving life to her children, but taking the life of animals.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1634 on: July 11, 2015, 10:24:44 AM »
The Church is already feminine by its very nature in that it is personified as a bride. Ordaining women to the priesthood would ironically do more to create an imbalance between the genders than to create a balance. By having a feminine entity whose primary office is masculine, a balance is created as both genders play a role. By having a feminine entity with a feminine and/or mixed primary office, a matriarchy is created and males are left out. The reason people want female priests is because they don't have a good understanding of our ecclesiology to begin with.
OUR ecclesiology? I thought you hated God and had all but rejected the Church? Are you Orthodox when it's convenient for you but a hater of God when it's not?

I couldn't have said it better myself.  Bravo.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1635 on: July 11, 2015, 10:50:56 AM »
Mother Irini, who is well on her way to be canonized one day in the Coptic Church, also preached even to presbyters who came to hear her even though she wished for the presbyters to be the one to preach and to sit in a higher seat in her presence.

A cliche, empty of any content. Not even remotely related to the heresy of women's ordination to priesthood, should it be as chanters, readers, prophets or presbyter.

Apostles also came to St.Mary to seek her blessings. Yet, the Holy Theotokos was never considered for priesthood. She never stood at the front pews as chanter, never preached and never led as a deacon or entered the altar in any capacity. Far be it from her to be connected to this heresy. 

Well, unless you consider the status of the late Tamav Iriny and her likes worthy of more consideration for priesthood than the Theotokos, which I would not be surprised if you do.   
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1636 on: July 11, 2015, 11:32:49 AM »
it would be a contradiction for a [man] to be a priest because [he] would be giving life to [his] children, but taking the life of animals.
I don't think I accept the argument.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 11:32:57 AM by NicholasMyra »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1637 on: July 11, 2015, 12:15:47 PM »
Mother Irini, who is well on her way to be canonized one day in the Coptic Church, also preached even to presbyters who came to hear her even though she wished for the presbyters to be the one to preach and to sit in a higher seat in her presence.

A cliche, empty of any content. Not even remotely related to the heresy of women's ordination to priesthood, should it be as chanters, readers, prophets or presbyter.

Apostles also came to St.Mary to seek her blessings. Yet, the Holy Theotokos was never considered for priesthood. She never stood at the front pews as chanter, never preached and never led as a deacon or entered the altar in any capacity. Far be it from her to be connected to this heresy. 

Well, unless you consider the status of the late Tamav Iriny and her likes worthy of more consideration for priesthood than the Theotokos, which I would not be surprised if you do.
How do you know so much about what the Theotokos did or did not do in church? Where is all this documented?
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Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1638 on: July 11, 2015, 06:27:23 PM »
How do you know so much about what the Theotokos did or did not do in church? Where is all this documented?

I always thought the icon, The Virgin of the Sign, looked very priestly.
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Offline Orest

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1639 on: July 13, 2015, 12:43:37 PM »
Mother Irini, who is well on her way to be canonized one day in the Coptic Church, also preached even to presbyters who came to hear her even though she wished for the presbyters to be the one to preach and to sit in a higher seat in her presence.

A cliche, empty of any content. Not even remotely related to the heresy of women's ordination to priesthood, should it be as chanters, readers, prophets or presbyter.

Apostles also came to St.Mary to seek her blessings. Yet, the Holy Theotokos was never considered for priesthood. She never stood at the front pews as chanter, never preached and never led as a deacon or entered the altar in any capacity. Far be it from her to be connected to this heresy. 

Well, unless you consider the status of the late Tamav Iriny and her likes worthy of more consideration for priesthood than the Theotokos, which I would not be surprised if you do.
Which Orthodox Church do you belong to?  Even in apostolic times there were deaconesses. And we already have women choir directors, cantors and theologians. This is not heresy so try learning something. 

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1640 on: July 13, 2015, 01:23:24 PM »
How do you know so much about what the Theotokos did or did not do in church? Where is all this documented?

I always thought the icon, The Virgin of the Sign, looked very priestly.
Why?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1641 on: July 13, 2015, 01:33:01 PM »
Mother Irini, who is well on her way to be canonized one day in the Coptic Church, also preached even to presbyters who came to hear her even though she wished for the presbyters to be the one to preach and to sit in a higher seat in her presence.

A cliche, empty of any content. Not even remotely related to the heresy of women's ordination to priesthood, should it be as chanters, readers, prophets or presbyter.

Apostles also came to St.Mary to seek her blessings. Yet, the Holy Theotokos was never considered for priesthood. She never stood at the front pews as chanter, never preached and never led as a deacon or entered the altar in any capacity. Far be it from her to be connected to this heresy. 

Well, unless you consider the status of the late Tamav Iriny and her likes worthy of more consideration for priesthood than the Theotokos, which I would not be surprised if you do.
Which Orthodox Church do you belong to?  Even in apostolic times there were deaconesses. And we already have women choir directors, cantors and theologians. This is not heresy so try learning something.

You should wait for Stavro to answer the questions you have asked him before implying he is ignorant.  You're not exactly Basil the Great.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Stavro

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1642 on: July 13, 2015, 08:40:19 PM »
Quote
How do you know so much about what the Theotokos did or did not do in church? Where is all this documented?

I cannot prove a negative.

Do you have proof that the holy Theotokos was a priestess, or performing any duties of the clergy?   
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1643 on: July 13, 2015, 08:45:09 PM »
You should wait for Stavro to answer the questions you have asked him before implying he is ignorant.
We do have his posting history.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1644 on: July 13, 2015, 08:54:27 PM »
Mother Irini, who is well on her way to be canonized one day in the Coptic Church, also preached even to presbyters who came to hear her even though she wished for the presbyters to be the one to preach and to sit in a higher seat in her presence.

A cliche, empty of any content. Not even remotely related to the heresy of women's ordination to priesthood, should it be as chanters, readers, prophets or presbyter.

Apostles also came to St.Mary to seek her blessings. Yet, the Holy Theotokos was never considered for priesthood. She never stood at the front pews as chanter, never preached and never led as a deacon or entered the altar in any capacity. Far be it from her to be connected to this heresy. 

Well, unless you consider the status of the late Tamav Iriny and her likes worthy of more consideration for priesthood than the Theotokos, which I would not be surprised if you do.

Where did you get the idea that I was rooting for female priesthood?

And a female "chanter" is not a heresy.  It is an ancient Church tradition.  But it's not the first time you got theology wrong Stavro.  It's okay, like the issue with Fr. Matta al Maskeen, I have faith you'll learn from your mistakes.
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Offline Stavro

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1645 on: July 13, 2015, 09:16:23 PM »
Quote
Where did you get the idea that I was rooting for female priesthood?

You are defending female ordination to the rank of chanters in the Coptic Church. Chanters are among the ranks of priesthood in the Coptic Church and you actually get ordained to it. You do not get ordained to a service.

Your reference to Tamav Iriny is forgivable because you have no understanding of the Egyptian culture, the crowd she is talking to, the type of visitors who come to the monastery. Your total lack of knowledge about Egyptian culture and Arabic always leads you to wrong inferences about "preaching" in front of bishops and "teaching" while priests are sitting, while she is merely telling some miracles of St. Mercurious. It seems that the person you rely on for interpretation is equally ignorant.

I was correcting you as I usually do. I hope you are not offended.

Quote
It's okay, like the issue with Fr. Matta al Maskeen, I have faith you'll learn from your mistakes.


Thank you, brother, of reminding me with the example of Fr. Matta El-Meskeen, an act which needed integrity, courage and a spine. I hope you can one time do the same, grow a spine and admit your mistake and be a pioneer among your family.     
In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

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Offline Stavro

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1646 on: July 13, 2015, 09:22:52 PM »
Basil the Great,

Quote
Which Orthodox Church do you belong to?

The Coptic Orthodox Church. You?

Quote
Even in apostolic times there were deaconesses.

Thank you for the valuable information that were hidden from all of us. Did they perform priesthood duties?

Quote
And we already have women choir directors, cantors and theologians.

Are these priesthood offices in your church?

Quote
This is not heresy so try learning something.

Reading your posts is not particularly helpful in learning anything. 
In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1647 on: July 13, 2015, 09:32:16 PM »
Stavro's posts fascinate me. He is clearly an intelligent guy, yet he has the most monstrous chip on his shoulder. I feel like I could learn a lot from him if he toned down the rhetoric to a tolerable level.
God bless!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1648 on: July 13, 2015, 09:49:04 PM »
Quote
Where did you get the idea that I was rooting for female priesthood?

You are defending female ordination to the rank of chanters in the Coptic Church. Chanters are among the ranks of priesthood in the Coptic Church and you actually get ordained to it. You do not get ordained to a service.

Actually Stavro, if you really need to get technical, the Church fathers teach that we are all "priests and kings" from the moment of our chrismation.  We become "Christs".  All people are both "laymen" and "priests", from the lowest of the ranks to the patriarch.  Only presbyters and bishops are to be male.  That much I made clear.

Chanters are not given the authority to bless over the Eucharist, nor even to enter the altar, nor the authority to chant the gospel.  The "first order of priesthood" is the Christian; the first order of those serving in the altar is the deacon; the first order of those who preside over the Eucharist is the presvyteros.  This is proper Orthodox ecclesiology, and being a "chanter" is not something that is "male-only", and does not apply or make sense in your argument.  You've been corrected by this before, and the whole of Oriental Orthodoxy contradicts your position.

Quote
Your reference to Tamav Iriny is forgivable because you have no understanding of the Egyptian culture, the crowd she is talking to, the type of visitors who come to the monastery. Your total lack of knowledge about Egyptian culture and Arabic always leads you to wrong inferences about "preaching" in front of bishops and "teaching" while priests are sitting, while she is merely telling some miracles of St. Mercurious. It seems that the person you rely on for interpretation is equally ignorant.

I was correcting you as I usually do. I hope you are not offended.



No, not at all.  I'm happy to be corrected by you when I do mistakes.  Correct me if I'm wrong though.  She's in a church, sharing miracles of the saint.  Sharing miracles is a form of preaching, is it not?  This is done all the time from the Synexarium, to testify of the holiness of a saint and seeking that saint's prayers and example.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1649 on: July 14, 2015, 12:43:23 AM »
Quote
How do you know so much about what the Theotokos did or did not do in church? Where is all this documented?

I cannot prove a negative.
Then don't assert it.

Do you have proof that the holy Theotokos was a priestess, or performing any duties of the clergy?   
I never asserted any such thing.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1650 on: July 14, 2015, 03:35:49 PM »
It was mentioned a couple of years ago in this thread that the Armenian Church has an ancient tradition of ordaining deaconesses, but it's restricted to nuns.  Here's a picture from before the Genocide:





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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1651 on: July 14, 2015, 05:43:35 PM »
Mother Irini, who is well on her way to be canonized one day in the Coptic Church, also preached even to presbyters who came to hear her even though she wished for the presbyters to be the one to preach and to sit in a higher seat in her presence.

A cliche, empty of any content. Not even remotely related to the heresy of women's ordination to priesthood, should it be as chanters, readers, prophets or presbyter.

Apostles also came to St.Mary to seek her blessings. Yet, the Holy Theotokos was never considered for priesthood. She never stood at the front pews as chanter, never preached and never led as a deacon or entered the altar in any capacity. Far be it from her to be connected to this heresy. 

Well, unless you consider the status of the late Tamav Iriny and her likes worthy of more consideration for priesthood than the Theotokos, which I would not be surprised if you do.
How do you know so much about what the Theotokos did or did not do in church? Where is all this documented?

Indeed, I was surprised to learn here that there were apparently pews, chanters and altars as we know them today in the immediate early Apostolic era. We know there were deacons from the Acts of the Apostles and obviously Paul and others were preachers but really?

Seriously, I have been at Sunday of Orthodoxy services where a talk was given in the Church by an Orthodox nun at least twice over the years...She had no notion of being anything more than a nun..in fact one talk was about why there are no female deacons or priests in our Tradition.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 05:45:11 PM by podkarpatska »

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1652 on: July 15, 2015, 10:49:38 AM »
Quote

Seriously, I have been at Sunday of Orthodoxy services where a talk was given in the Church by an Orthodox nun at least twice over the years...She had no notion of being anything more than a nun..in fact one talk was about why there are no female deacons or priests in our Tradition.

Where have you been living that you missed all the news going back to 1976 about the Pan-Orthodox Conferences on the restoration of deaconesses, the icons of deaconesses of the early church, all the books and articles since 1976 about deaconesses and women's ministry.  The restoration of deaconesses by the Orthodox Church of Greece.  And the big conference in New York this year too.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1653 on: July 15, 2015, 11:47:08 AM »
Quote

Seriously, I have been at Sunday of Orthodoxy services where a talk was given in the Church by an Orthodox nun at least twice over the years...She had no notion of being anything more than a nun..in fact one talk was about why there are no female deacons or priests in our Tradition.

Where have you been living that you missed all the news going back to 1976 about the Pan-Orthodox Conferences on the restoration of deaconesses, the icons of deaconesses of the early church, all the books and articles since 1976 about deaconesses and women's ministry.  The restoration of deaconesses by the Orthodox Church of Greece.  And the big conference in New York this year too.

A lot of talk, sure...but as Shakespeare observed in Macbeth(but for the part about the idiot) it is a tale full of sound and fury, but in the end signifying nothing. In other words, all of that talk is not a path to the diaconate and priesthood as known in the contemporary Orthodox Church. At least that is how I see it. Woman will not be presiding over the chalice at the altar or anywhere.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1654 on: July 15, 2015, 12:20:44 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Stavro on July 13, 2015, 08:40:19 PM
Quote
How do you know so much about what the Theotokos did or did not do in church? Where is all this documented?

I cannot prove a negative.
Then don't assert it.

Are you aware of the concept that one cannot prove a negative?

Consider this:

+ The church history does not include any individual liturgical role for women, and it is totally absent.
+ The scripture explicitly forbids women to preach in the church, and offers a strong theological reason to for this command.
+ Praxis does not include any traces of individual and special roles for women in church worship. They are part of the congregation as much as laymen are, not to occupy special places in chanting, reading or offering.
+ The the canons clearly seal this issue, confirming Tradition, Scripture and Praxis with preventing any special .
+ This heresy appears only in an age of liberalism and increasing feminism, aided by ecclesiastical confusion and lack of courage by clergy to proclaim the truth.
       
To further confirm the nature of this teaching as heretical, the role of St. Mary in the church was not one of leadership. If the audacious breach of Tradition in allowing women to preach or lead is warranted, it would have been breached first by the Theotokos and we would have had some indication, even one hint.
 
If the above is contested, the burden of proof is on you.

Quote
Quote from: Stavro on July 13, 2015, 08:40:19 PM
Do you have proof that the holy Theotokos was a priestess, or performing any duties of the clergy?   
I never asserted any such thing.


Good. That is enough for me.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1655 on: July 15, 2015, 12:53:16 PM »
Quote
You've been corrected by this before, and the whole of Oriental Orthodoxy contradicts your position.

More accurately, the truth I proclaimed regarding women ordination has been ignorantly attacked by others liberals, on an internet forum.

There is a decision by the Coptic Holy Synod to forbid having ladies chanting in the choir or dressing up like deacons and sitting the front pews as a separate choir. The bishop of LA, the author of confusion and innovation, is in clear breach of a synod decision. As much is clear.

Rather than making grandiose statements like "whole of Oriental Orthodox", look first within the established Tradition, reflected in a decision like the one above.

At any point of history, can you prove that such female liturgical choir existed? Ever?

Quote
Actually Stavro, if you really need to get technical, the Church fathers teach that we are all "priests and kings" from the moment of our chrismation.  We become "Christs".  All people are both "laymen" and "priests", from the lowest of the ranks to the patriarch.  Only presbyters and bishops are to be male.  That much I made clear.

And that much is wrong, because you arbitrary stop at the level of presbyter without offering a valid reason, nor is your argument supported by Tradition and praxis.

Deacons are among priesthood, as much should be clear from Tradition and from praxis. The rank of deacon includes chanters and readers. If you ever happen to accidentally attend a liturgy, and you luck out and you have an ordination of chanters, pay attention to the words that are being recited if a full consecration rite is performed. If it is too much to endure, just pay attention to the change of name part, which is associated with priesthood and the descent of the Holy Spirit for separation from the rest.

Quote
Chanters are not given the authority to bless over the Eucharist

Nor do readers or subdeacon distribute the Eucharist, and they are among the priesthood.

Quote
She's in a church, sharing miracles of the saint.  Sharing miracles is a form of preaching, is it not?  This is done all the time from the Synexarium, to testify of the holiness of a saint and seeking that saint's prayers and example.


But she did not read the Synexarium in a liturgy, nor did she preach in a liturgy, nor does telling a story constitute preaching.

Telling a story to the Pope Tawadros for example, about the true miracle of a Coptic patriarch stricken by the Lord on the night before he united with Rome, is not a form of liturgical preaching.   

You're not going to get off that easy with me.  You know the rules for proper titles.  Don't play games with the forum rules Stavro.

--Mina
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 08:16:47 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline biro

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1656 on: July 15, 2015, 01:03:16 PM »
Some people just don't want to take no for an answer.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1657 on: July 15, 2015, 01:23:40 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Stavro on July 13, 2015, 08:40:19 PM
Quote
How do you know so much about what the Theotokos did or did not do in church? Where is all this documented?

I cannot prove a negative.
Then don't assert it.

Are you aware of the concept that one cannot prove a negative?
Yes, I am aware of that concept. You assert a negative then afterward tell me that you can't prove it. If you know that you can't prove a claim, then don't make the claim. It's really that simple.

Consider this:

+ The church history does not include any individual liturgical role for women, and it is totally absent.
+ The scripture explicitly forbids women to preach in the church, and offers a strong theological reason to for this command.
+ Praxis does not include any traces of individual and special roles for women in church worship. They are part of the congregation as much as laymen are, not to occupy special places in chanting, reading or offering.
+ The the canons clearly seal this issue, confirming Tradition, Scripture and Praxis with preventing any special .
+ This heresy appears only in an age of liberalism and increasing feminism, aided by ecclesiastical confusion and lack of courage by clergy to proclaim the truth.
This doesn't prove your claim, though.
       
To further confirm the nature of this teaching as heretical, the role of St. Mary in the church was not one of leadership. If the audacious breach of Tradition in allowing women to preach or lead is warranted, it would have been breached first by the Theotokos and we would have had some indication, even one hint.
Ho hum. Just the same unprovable, negative claim you made earlier, only in different words.
 
If the above is contested, the burden of proof is on you.
If I was asserting that you're wrong, then yes, the burden of proof would be on me. However, I'm not claiming that you're wrong. I'm just pointing out that you don't have any proof that you're right--you even admit that you can't prove that you're right.

Quote
Quote from: Stavro on July 13, 2015, 08:40:19 PM
Do you have proof that the holy Theotokos was a priestess, or performing any duties of the clergy?   
I never asserted any such thing.


Good. That is enough for me.
And yet you won't stop asserting the negative truth claim you admit you can't prove.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 01:26:20 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1658 on: July 15, 2015, 03:08:53 PM »
Quote

Seriously, I have been at Sunday of Orthodoxy services where a talk was given in the Church by an Orthodox nun at least twice over the years...She had no notion of being anything more than a nun..in fact one talk was about why there are no female deacons or priests in our Tradition.

Where have you been living that you missed all the news going back to 1976 about the Pan-Orthodox Conferences on the restoration of deaconesses, the icons of deaconesses of the early church, all the books and articles since 1976 about deaconesses and women's ministry.  The restoration of deaconesses by the Orthodox Church of Greece.  And the big conference in New York this year too.

A lot of talk, sure...but as Shakespeare observed in Macbeth(but for the part about the idiot) it is a tale full of sound and fury, but in the end signifying nothing. In other words, all of that talk is not a path to the diaconate and priesthood as known in the contemporary Orthodox Church. At least that is how I see it. Woman will not be presiding over the chalice at the altar or anywhere.
I hear you about seeing ordained deaconesses here in North America.
But we cannot deny the historical reality and facts of ordained deaconesses in the past: it is only the long time it is taking to restore this.
Also I see around me more and more involvement of women in the ministry and activity in the Orthodox Church.  I have posted in this group that in the countries of the former USSR there are a multitude of women cantors and choir directors in Orthodox churches and that special seminary programmes of up to 3 years especially for women cantors and choir directors existed and had many students in the classes.  That to me is an important ministry and way for women to use their gifts.  Then there is the fact of more women involved in church governance attending sobors as delegates, getting elected to parish councils and to church committees.  Next is education  not just at the Sunday School or parish level but women with doctorates in theology writing and publishing. 
And how about women chaplains in hospitals:
Our church for example has a woman chaplain
http://www.infoukes.com/newpathway/47-2005_Page-6.htm

 and I read that there are more Orthodox women chaplains in the USA. 

Offline Salpy

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1659 on: July 15, 2015, 03:15:32 PM »
The chaplaincy is different from the priesthood, though.  From the linked interview:

Quote
NP:“Chaplain” usually refers to male clergy, yet, you are a non-ordained female in the Orthodox Church. Can you explain this term?

 LMS: The term “chaplain” does not at all apply to me within the Orthodox Church. As a female, I am not ordained in any kind of clergy ranks for this hospital ministry, nor do I have the calling, interest, or desire to be ordained to the priesthood. I have always strongly emphasized this. The term “chaplain” is a hospital designation. Neither Orthodox nor Catholics acknowledge this term for females, so using the term has been controversial to say the least.  Recently, however, our spiritual care staff “chaplains” have been renamed “Spiritual Care Specialists,” a change of title which may serve to alleviate at least some of the controversy.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1660 on: July 15, 2015, 03:33:03 PM »
I agree with Stavro that St. Mary did not formally preach or have a leadership position in the Church.  Something like that would have been written about, if not in the canonical New Testament than at least in some of the other writings that have survived from the early Church. 

Of course I would imagine that she often spoke when the Apostles or other Christians were gathered with her, and her words would have been treasured by anyone who heard them.  Otherwise, how would we know about the events surrounding the Nativity of Christ, or the incident in the temple when He was young?  That sort of thing would be different, however, from the preaching that St. Paul and other Apostles did, and which was recorded in the New Testament.  It would be strange if the Holy Mother did that sort of preaching and there were no record of it anywhere. 


What I don't understand is Stavro's assertion that the deaconate is the same as the priesthood.  I know they are both major orders, but I thought that they were not the same thing.  Maybe I misunderstood.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1661 on: July 15, 2015, 03:40:34 PM »
He's saying that the chapters and readers are "orders of the diaconate".  He's wrong, and I'll explain later.  He is also of the theology that "priesthood" and "clergy" are synonyms.  It's a common mistake, where it is not realized that the priesthood actually begins at chrismation.  But when I say that, he misconstrues this to mean that I am advocating for female presbytery and episcopacy.  And when I mentioned the preaching of a nun, once again, a miscontruing of the idea that I am advocating a woman took up some sort of higher clerical role.  He's building a straw man not realizing how wrong he is.

Also, if anyone knows anything about St. Ephrem the Syrian, one would know he established the female choir at his time, which the Syriac Church to this day tonsures.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 03:42:26 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1662 on: July 15, 2015, 03:57:32 PM »
Quote
Quote from: Stavro on July 13, 2015, 08:40:19 PM
Quote
How do you know so much about what the Theotokos did or did not do in church? Where is all this documented?

I cannot prove a negative.
Then don't assert it.

Are you aware of the concept that one cannot prove a negative?

Consider this:

+ The church history does not include any individual liturgical role for women, and it is totally absent.
+ The scripture explicitly forbids women to preach in the church, and offers a strong theological reason to for this command.
+ Praxis does not include any traces of individual and special roles for women in church worship. They are part of the congregation as much as laymen are, not to occupy special places in chanting, reading or offering.
+ The the canons clearly seal this issue, confirming Tradition, Scripture and Praxis with preventing any special .
+ This heresy appears only in an age of liberalism and increasing feminism, aided by ecclesiastical confusion and lack of courage by clergy to proclaim the truth.
       
To further confirm the nature of this teaching as heretical, the role of St. Mary in the church was not one of leadership. If the audacious breach of Tradition in allowing women to preach or lead is warranted, it would have been breached first by the Theotokos and we would have had some indication, even one hint.
 
If the above is contested, the burden of proof is on you.

Quote
Quote from: Stavro on July 13, 2015, 08:40:19 PM
Do you have proof that the holy Theotokos was a priestess, or performing any duties of the clergy?   
I never asserted any such thing.


Good. That is enough for me.

You wrote: "The scripture explicitly forbids women to preach in the church, and offers a strong theological reason to for this command."

I strongly recommend reading an excellent book on this subject: Feminism and Tradition: Quiet Reflections on Ordination and Communion by Fr. Lawrence R. Farley, an Orthodox priest and Biblical scholar. His research of those verses that you are alluding to refer to the need for the pastor of a NT church to ensure that Apostolic teaching is preserved intact; specifically, to decide whether the prophesy uttered by a man or woman is according to the received Tradition (teachings).

I will say a general word about any of our services, particularly the Divine Liturgy. According to Father Alexander of thrice blessed memory,prayers are not completed until a response is given: Amen, Lord have mercy, to Thee O Lord, etc. Thus, all of the people of God have a liturgical function: men, women, old, young--it does not matter.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 03:58:23 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1663 on: July 15, 2015, 04:12:54 PM »
He's saying that the chapters and readers are "orders of the diaconate".  He's wrong, and I'll explain later. 

Actually, I would argue that he's right about that but wrong about categorising "diaconate" under "priesthood", as in:

Quote
He is also of the theology that "priesthood" and "clergy" are synonyms. 

All priests are clerics, but not all clerics are priests.

Quote
It's a common mistake, where it is not realized that the priesthood actually begins at chrismation.  But when I say that, he misconstrues this to mean that I am advocating for female presbytery and episcopacy.  And when I mentioned the preaching of a nun, once again, a miscontruing of the idea that I am advocating a woman took up some sort of higher clerical role.  He's building a straw man not realizing how wrong he is.

I'm not willing to criticise Stavro over this.  He's hardly the only Copt who uses terms differently.  There seems to be a lot of confusion out there.

Quote
Also, if anyone knows anything about St. Ephrem the Syrian, one would know he established the female choir at his time, which the Syriac Church to this day tonsures.

+1
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1664 on: July 15, 2015, 08:40:51 PM »
I'm not willing to criticise Stavro over this.  He's hardly the only Copt who uses terms differently.  There seems to be a lot of confusion out there.

I sympathize.  Based on this discussion we had a while ago, I forgot about the certain points you made.  Nevertheless, I am in general theological agreement with the thoughts of Jonathan in that thread.  My main focus is that we are all priests and we are all la-os, including the Pope.  And it's amazing, I debunked the strawman in that thread that I am for the ordination of women to the presbyterate and episcopacy, and I still get the same accusation. 

Just a question:  did you mean that all clergy are priests but not all priests are clergy?

In the Gregorian Liturgy we pray for all the orders of the Church, and the orders of the Church are listed in three particular prayers by the celebrant of the liturgy, first the episcopacy, then from the hegumen to the subdiaconate, then the rest of the orders of the Church:

Priest: This which exists from one end of the world to the other. And those in it who divide the word of truth in uprightness.  And most of all our honoured father the Patriarch Abba (...), and for his brothers in the apostolic ministry, (...), and for his partner in the apostolic ministry, our father the Metropolitan (or Bishop) Abba (...).

Deacon: Pray for our high-priest, Pope Abba (...) Pope, Patriarch and Archbishop of the great city of Alexandria, and for his brothers in the apostolic ministry, (...), and for his partner in the apostolic ministry, our father the Metropolitan (or Bishop) Abba (...), and for our Orthodox Bishops.

People: Lord have mercy.

Priest: And for those who dwell in this place and for those who have fallen asleep. The bishops, the hegumens, the presbyters, the deacons and the subdeacons.

Deacon: Pray for the hegumens, the presbyters, the deacons and the subdeacons, and the seven orders of the Church of God.

People: Lord have mercy.

Priest: The readers, the cantors, the exorcists, the monks, the virgins, the widows, the orphans, the hermits, the laity and all the
fullness of Your holy Church, O God of the faithful.

People: Lord have mercy.


If there needs to be some consistency, it seems to me that even the laity can be considered "an order of the priesthood".

I find it interesting that the same Holy Synod lead by the same Pope who used to be a general bishop is the same authority Stavro is appealing to despite his derision of the present Coptic Papacy because of the fact these men were general bishops before they became Popes.
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