Author Topic: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church  (Read 378469 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1575 on: June 09, 2015, 12:15:25 AM »
What else do you find hard to believe?

byhisgrace is an enquirer into Orthodoxy. Why are you so harsh on him?
Just following your example. ;)
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Offline LBK

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1576 on: June 09, 2015, 12:22:20 AM »
What else do you find hard to believe?

byhisgrace is an enquirer into Orthodoxy. Why are you so harsh on him?
Just following your example. ;)

byhisgrace is an enquirer, not formally received into either the EO or OO church. Stop picking fights with those who can't properly fight them.  >:( >:( >:(
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:23:26 AM by LBK »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1577 on: June 09, 2015, 12:39:28 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1578 on: June 09, 2015, 12:46:42 AM »
LBK, though I appreciate you for speaking up for me, I wasn't hurt by that particular post by PtA. It was a bit unnecessary, yes, but it was trivially mild.   

As for my personal inquiry about women's ordination, I think that 1 Timothy 2:13-14 and how the Church consistently applied it is good enough for me. I just asked if there's any Patristics quote I could use, if you will, as more apologetic tools. That's all. 
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1579 on: June 09, 2015, 12:48:01 AM »
Fatherhood is just as high a calling as motherhood. But women have no equivalent when it comes to the priesthood.

What is "fatherhood"?  What is "motherhood"?  And what is "priesthood"?

The condition of being a father, mother, and priest, respectively. It has functions and it's a condition such that the respective nouns apply to each.

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My argument is that if God could have created an egalitarian world then it follows that He did, or else He is not really a loving God. It's the same essential argument behind abolitionism. Huck Finn's "All right, then I'll go to Hell" immediately springs to mind.

How egalitarian does God have to be in order to be loving?

How equal do blacks have to be with whites in order to be free?

Don't dodge my question.  You are the one claiming that God is not loving for not creating an egalitarian world.  Feel free to explain your answer by explaining what you mean by "egalitarian".

That is the answer to your question. Just like God created blacks to be free people, I see no reason to think that He didn't create women to be capable of being priests. Even when people are physically incapable of something, there's still the possibility of a reasonable equivalent. In the case of parenthood, there are the counterparts of mother and father to make up for the biological differences. Presbyteras though are not nearly equal to priests.

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What male-only priesthood advocates really need to prove is that all is doom and gloom whenever a female priest is ordained (a literalistic reading of 1 Peter 3:7's "weaker vessel" would also help).

Why is that the standard?

Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.

An argument based on an "if".  You've convinced me.  :P

Like I said, I think there's good reason to assume said "if."
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1580 on: June 09, 2015, 12:49:04 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there's nothing that would make a female priest different from a male priest?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:53:54 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1581 on: June 09, 2015, 12:51:48 AM »
Hi Volnutt

Regarding the ordination of women, why wouldn't it be a good enough reason to say that a deeply historical Church like the Orthodox Church has interpreted the Scriptures for 2000 years, and therefore is most likely to have the correct understanding of 1 Timothy 2:13-14?
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:52:31 AM by byhisgrace »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1582 on: June 09, 2015, 12:53:02 AM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.

The head of the local congregation...

...is the bishop.

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...who serves in the bishop's stead...

This explains what priests do when assigned to individual parish communities by their bishop (not all priests are so assigned).  This does not explain what priests are.  What's a priest in relation to a bishop?   

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...ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.

These are all episcopal duties.

As I understand it, in relation to a bishop the priest is essentially an assistant/servant with greater ability to perform sacraments who serves at the bishop's pleasure.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1583 on: June 09, 2015, 12:54:57 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1584 on: June 09, 2015, 12:55:25 AM »
What else do you find hard to believe?

byhisgrace is an enquirer into Orthodoxy. Why are you so harsh on him?
Just following your example. ;)

byhisgrace is an enquirer, not formally received into either the EO or OO church. Stop picking fights with those who can't properly fight them.  >:( >:( >:(
LBK, if you wish to discuss the topic of women's ordination, then please do so. Otherwise, leave me alone.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:56:13 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1585 on: June 09, 2015, 12:57:10 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Where in the world did that come from? :o Please try to stay on topic.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1586 on: June 09, 2015, 12:59:42 AM »
Whatever grace is imparted by ordination is for use for the congregation. It isn't some ontological change.

It's true that we don't typically speak of ordination as an ontological change in the way Roman Catholics do, and yet ordination is something more than "grace imparted for use for the congregation", at least based on the ordination rites.  Also, in the rare case that a deposed priest is reinstated, he isn't ordained to the priesthood again: his deposition is reversed and he assumes his place among the other clerics of his order.  If it was pure function, then I find it difficult to imagine the circumstances in which it wouldn't be preferable to re-ordain the man publicly rather than just send him a letter saying "Here's your new parish assignment, Sunday Liturgy is scheduled to begin at 9am, make sure to set your alarm."

Ok, but you still have to show that being male is an essential part of said ontological change. Reinstatement can be explained by convenience.

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Do you think it possible that the priest also represents Christ to the congregation? How should that influence our thinking of the relationship of women to the ordained priesthood?

Women are just as much in the image of God as men are. I don't see why it should cause a conflict. A child obeys both his father and his mother and is to love them both equally.

Is it because you're worried people might not think that God has a penis?

What does the "image of God" have to do with this?  No one is denying that both men and women are created in the image of God, but that's not nearly the only requirement for ordination.  If it was, why are you proposing only the ordination of women?  Why not the ordination of Hindus?   

Denying them this equality for no clear reason is a denial of the equality of their image. Hindus aren't ordained for the clear reason that they aren't believes (for a start). I never said being in the Image of God is the only necessary requirement.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1587 on: June 09, 2015, 01:00:59 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Where in the world did that come from? :o Please try to stay on topic.

That's the answer to your question. Forcing people to eat dog crap is clearly wrong, denying women equal authority with men when there's no good reason to so is also clearly wrong.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline LBK

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1588 on: June 09, 2015, 01:01:35 AM »
What else do you find hard to believe?

byhisgrace is an enquirer into Orthodoxy. Why are you so harsh on him?
Just following your example. ;)

byhisgrace is an enquirer, not formally received into either the EO or OO church. Stop picking fights with those who can't properly fight them.  >:( >:( >:(
LBK, if you wish to discuss the topic of women's ordination, then please do so. Otherwise, leave me alone.

You are reading my posts. I am not responsible for your deliberate actions.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1589 on: June 09, 2015, 01:02:59 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Where in the world did that come from? :o Please try to stay on topic.

That's the answer to your question. Forcing people to eat dog crap is clearly wrong, denying women equal authority with men when there's no good reason to so is also clearly wrong.
That's not an answer to my question. You're only making another assertion that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. So once again, what do you know of priesthood?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1590 on: June 09, 2015, 01:03:37 AM »
Hi Volnutt

Regarding the ordination of women, why wouldn't it be a good enough reason to say that a deeply historical Church like the Orthodox Church has interpreted the Scriptures for 2000 years, and therefore is most likely to have the correct understanding of 1 Timothy 2:13-14?

Deuteronomy 23:2 says that a bastard shall not enter the congregation of the Lord to the tenth generation. Read literally, this verse would be monstrously evil, I don't need the Orthodox Church to tell me that. I think of 1 Timothy 2:13-14 the same way.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1591 on: June 09, 2015, 01:03:55 AM »
What else do you find hard to believe?

byhisgrace is an enquirer into Orthodoxy. Why are you so harsh on him?
Just following your example. ;)

byhisgrace is an enquirer, not formally received into either the EO or OO church. Stop picking fights with those who can't properly fight them.  >:( >:( >:(
LBK, if you wish to discuss the topic of women's ordination, then please do so. Otherwise, leave me alone.

You are reading my posts. I am not responsible for your deliberate actions.
You will be held responsible for your posts.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 01:04:25 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1592 on: June 09, 2015, 01:05:16 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Where in the world did that come from? :o Please try to stay on topic.

That's the answer to your question. Forcing people to eat dog crap is clearly wrong, denying women equal authority with men when there's no good reason to so is also clearly wrong.
That's not an answer to my question. You're only making another assertion that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. So once again, what do you know of priesthood?

Nothing. I do know that inequalities like this are wrong, though.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline LBK

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1593 on: June 09, 2015, 01:08:25 AM »
LBK, if you wish to discuss the topic of women's ordination, then please do so. Otherwise, leave me alone.

Last time I checked, I was on your blocked list. You chose to read my posts of your own volition.  :police:
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 01:09:09 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1594 on: June 09, 2015, 01:10:51 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Where in the world did that come from? :o Please try to stay on topic.

That's the answer to your question. Forcing people to eat dog crap is clearly wrong, denying women equal authority with men when there's no good reason to so is also clearly wrong.
That's not an answer to my question. You're only making another assertion that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. So once again, what do you know of priesthood?

Nothing. I do know that inequalities like this are wrong, though.
So you know nothing about priesthood in the Orthodox Church, yet you feel yourself qualified to judge our practice of a male-only priesthood as wrong because it violates your sense of egalitarianism. If you don't know anything about the Orthodox priesthood and why we don't ordain women, then maybe you should admit that you're not qualified to judge it.
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Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1595 on: June 09, 2015, 01:17:27 AM »
Inquirers may not be "qualified to judge," but they have the right to question the faith they are inquiring about. 
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1596 on: June 09, 2015, 01:26:42 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Where in the world did that come from? :o Please try to stay on topic.

That's the answer to your question. Forcing people to eat dog crap is clearly wrong, denying women equal authority with men when there's no good reason to so is also clearly wrong.
That's not an answer to my question. You're only making another assertion that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. So once again, what do you know of priesthood?

Nothing. I do know that inequalities like this are wrong, though.
So you know nothing about priesthood in the Orthodox Church, yet you feel yourself qualified to judge our practice of a male-only priesthood as wrong because it violates your sense of egalitarianism. If you don't know anything about the Orthodox priesthood and why we don't ordain women, then maybe you should admit that you're not qualified to judge it.

So you have absolutely no objection to, for example, Muslim honor killings or Hindu widow burning because you aren't part of that culture and thus are "not equipped to judge" based on your sense of human rights?
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1597 on: June 09, 2015, 01:43:25 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Where in the world did that come from? :o Please try to stay on topic.

That's the answer to your question. Forcing people to eat dog crap is clearly wrong, denying women equal authority with men when there's no good reason to so is also clearly wrong.
That's not an answer to my question. You're only making another assertion that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. So once again, what do you know of priesthood?

Nothing. I do know that inequalities like this are wrong, though.
So you know nothing about priesthood in the Orthodox Church, yet you feel yourself qualified to judge our practice of a male-only priesthood as wrong because it violates your sense of egalitarianism. If you don't know anything about the Orthodox priesthood and why we don't ordain women, then maybe you should admit that you're not qualified to judge it.

So you have absolutely no objection to, for example, Muslim honor killings or Hindu widow burning because you aren't part of that culture and thus are "not equipped to judge" based on your sense of human rights?
You're putting words into my mouth again. Stop it. >:( You are the one attacking our Church's practice of not ordaining women to the priesthood. You are the one being called to answer questions about your reasoning. You are the one who needs to defend your judgment of our practice. Attempting to deflect questions by asking absurd questions of me over things I never said will not absolve you of the burden I and others are putting on you. Right now you need to establish how much you know about Orthodox priesthood and why we reserve it for men only. Right now you need to establish why egalitarianism is such a noble goal that our practice of a male-only priesthood is wrong because it isn't what you call "egalitarian". Right now you need to establish your qualifications to condemn a practice with which you disagree.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1598 on: June 09, 2015, 03:06:12 AM »
LBK, if you wish to discuss the topic of women's ordination, then please do so. Otherwise, leave me alone.

Last time I checked, I was on your blocked list. You chose to read my posts of your own volition.  :police:
No. I am required to read your posts.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1599 on: June 09, 2015, 03:45:58 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Where in the world did that come from? :o Please try to stay on topic.

That's the answer to your question. Forcing people to eat dog crap is clearly wrong, denying women equal authority with men when there's no good reason to so is also clearly wrong.
That's not an answer to my question. You're only making another assertion that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. So once again, what do you know of priesthood?

Nothing. I do know that inequalities like this are wrong, though.
So you know nothing about priesthood in the Orthodox Church, yet you feel yourself qualified to judge our practice of a male-only priesthood as wrong because it violates your sense of egalitarianism. If you don't know anything about the Orthodox priesthood and why we don't ordain women, then maybe you should admit that you're not qualified to judge it.

So you have absolutely no objection to, for example, Muslim honor killings or Hindu widow burning because you aren't part of that culture and thus are "not equipped to judge" based on your sense of human rights?
You're putting words into my mouth again. Stop it. >:( You are the one attacking our Church's practice of not ordaining women to the priesthood. You are the one being called to answer questions about your reasoning. You are the one who needs to defend your judgment of our practice. Attempting to deflect questions by asking absurd questions of me over things I never said will not absolve you of the burden I and others are putting on you. Right now you need to establish how much you know about Orthodox priesthood and why we reserve it for men only. Right now you need to establish why egalitarianism is such a noble goal that our practice of a male-only priesthood is wrong because it isn't what you call "egalitarian". Right now you need to establish your qualifications to condemn a practice with which you disagree.

Forget it. I tried to explain where I was coming from and it went right over your head. I might as well talk to wall.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1600 on: June 09, 2015, 08:51:56 AM »
LBK, though I appreciate you for speaking up for me, I wasn't hurt by that particular post by PtA. It was a bit unnecessary, yes, but it was trivially mild.   

As for my personal inquiry about women's ordination, I think that 1 Timothy 2:13-14 and how the Church consistently applied it is good enough for me. I just asked if there's any Patristics quote I could use, if you will, as more apologetic tools. That's all.

I am reading a wonderful book on the subject by Father Lawrence Farley, Feminism and Tradition: Quiet Reflections on Ordination and Communion. As the blurb points out "Feminism and Tradition deals head-on with the questions and challenges which feminism presents to the traditional Orthodox Faith, in a way which is irenic, straightforward, and comprehensive. It examines at length the scriptural foundation for the Church's Faith, as well as its elaboration by the Fathers, and goes on to offer a model and rationale for continuing to accept this traditional Faith in our modern age. The book defies the entrenched polarized positions of former debates, and bids us take another look at these controversial questions."

I urge all who are interested in this subject to read it.

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1601 on: June 09, 2015, 09:13:57 AM »

Why does everyone wish to divide us by trying to make us equal in some limiting sense?  Remember, that salvation entered this world through a young woman.

Mankind...we are all created in the image of God, and we are all anointed at our chrismation, and we are all called to be priests of the Church....in different ways.

The only thing different is that men can be ordained into the official Church priesthood and become clergy - deacon, priest, bishop, which grants them the privilege of playing a more integral part in the Church, the Holy Sacraments, etc.

However, remember, that not all men, not even all Orthodox men, would be permitted to enter the priesthood...it takes more than physical attributes of the body.

Women play no less a roll in the Church...only this side of the Ikonostas.

Both, men and women, are loved by God, and "used" by Him to grow and strengthen His Church.  However, Christ DID pick 12 male disciples....even though He was surrounded by willing and eager women...who nonetheless followed Him and supported the Apostles.  While they weren't chosen to be Apostles, they were also not told to go away, but, were present at many great moments.  The women were the first to be given the Good News of Christ's resurrection....and they were the ones who shared it with the men.  The women were the first to see the Resurrected Christ.  The women were the ones who stood steadfast at His crucifixion and were constants in the Church, when the men faltered. 

The women still do this today.  We have a huge role to play in life....which is not diminished in the least because we don't get to wear a cassock.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1602 on: June 09, 2015, 10:07:18 AM »
This article entitled "Rethinking 'Biblical Equality'" helped me understand better the role of a priest as well as why the priesthood is open only to men.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1603 on: June 09, 2015, 10:35:12 AM »
The only thing different is that men can be ordained into the official Church priesthood and become clergy - deacon, priest, bishop, which grants them the privilege of playing a more integral part in the Church, the Holy Sacraments, etc.

since when deacons do all that?

Quote
The women still do this today.  We have a huge role to play in life....which is not diminished in the least because we don't get to wear a cassock.

Ryasa?
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1604 on: June 09, 2015, 11:33:41 AM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Where in the world did that come from? :o Please try to stay on topic.

That's the answer to your question. Forcing people to eat dog crap is clearly wrong, denying women equal authority with men when there's no good reason to so is also clearly wrong.
That's not an answer to my question. You're only making another assertion that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. So once again, what do you know of priesthood?

Nothing. I do know that inequalities like this are wrong, though.
So you know nothing about priesthood in the Orthodox Church, yet you feel yourself qualified to judge our practice of a male-only priesthood as wrong because it violates your sense of egalitarianism. If you don't know anything about the Orthodox priesthood and why we don't ordain women, then maybe you should admit that you're not qualified to judge it.

So you have absolutely no objection to, for example, Muslim honor killings or Hindu widow burning because you aren't part of that culture and thus are "not equipped to judge" based on your sense of human rights?
You're putting words into my mouth again. Stop it. >:( You are the one attacking our Church's practice of not ordaining women to the priesthood. You are the one being called to answer questions about your reasoning. You are the one who needs to defend your judgment of our practice. Attempting to deflect questions by asking absurd questions of me over things I never said will not absolve you of the burden I and others are putting on you. Right now you need to establish how much you know about Orthodox priesthood and why we reserve it for men only. Right now you need to establish why egalitarianism is such a noble goal that our practice of a male-only priesthood is wrong because it isn't what you call "egalitarian". Right now you need to establish your qualifications to condemn a practice with which you disagree.

Forget it. I tried to explain where I was coming from and it went right over your head. I might as well talk to wall.
Now you know how I feel with your twisting in the wind and your crass refusal to give a direct answer to any questions asked of you. Every time someone asks you a question, you think you know where the questioner is leading you and respond with an absurd question that shows that you really have no idea. The only common thread is that every absurd question you ask only puts you back on the offensive--you want us to engage you, but you won't engage us. That's not dialogue, though.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 11:55:56 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1605 on: June 09, 2015, 12:02:19 PM »
This article entitled "Rethinking 'Biblical Equality'" helped me understand better the role of a priest as well as why the priesthood is open only to men.

So to summarize-

Men are superior because they're bigger and stronger, but women are still their ontological equals- sounds like doubletalk to me.
Quote
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1606 on: June 09, 2015, 12:05:17 PM »
The only thing different is that men can be ordained into the official Church priesthood and become clergy - deacon, priest, bishop, which grants them the privilege of playing a more integral part in the Church, the Holy Sacraments, etc.

since when deacons do all that?


Deacons do assist in the Altar during Liturgy...they may and do touch the altar table, and the Gifts...and even distribute the Eucharist on occasion.

Monasteries aside, women normally do not enter the Altar, touch the Gifts, etc.

Do you disagree with that statement?

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1607 on: June 09, 2015, 12:46:23 PM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

Different argument. Obviously you wouldn't for disciplinary reasons in a church that considers being transgendered to be a state of sin.
You missed the joke. I'll give you a hint as to what it is.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?

Ok, then what's the other option? It's some kind of mysterious, undefined change in the person's very being. What makes you think this is a change that needs a Y chromosome to take effect?
Please answer the question with a statement, without resorting to absurd straw men, and without putting words into my mouth. What do you know of priesthood that you can assert that there would be no difference between a female priest and a male priest?

I'm a reasonable, moral human being. If the Church tells me to eat dog crap, I'm not going to do it no matter how much authority is behind it.
Where in the world did that come from? :o Please try to stay on topic.

That's the answer to your question. Forcing people to eat dog crap is clearly wrong, denying women equal authority with men when there's no good reason to so is also clearly wrong.
That's not an answer to my question. You're only making another assertion that has nothing to do with what I'm asking. So once again, what do you know of priesthood?

Nothing. I do know that inequalities like this are wrong, though.
So you know nothing about priesthood in the Orthodox Church, yet you feel yourself qualified to judge our practice of a male-only priesthood as wrong because it violates your sense of egalitarianism. If you don't know anything about the Orthodox priesthood and why we don't ordain women, then maybe you should admit that you're not qualified to judge it.

So you have absolutely no objection to, for example, Muslim honor killings or Hindu widow burning because you aren't part of that culture and thus are "not equipped to judge" based on your sense of human rights?
You're putting words into my mouth again. Stop it. >:( You are the one attacking our Church's practice of not ordaining women to the priesthood. You are the one being called to answer questions about your reasoning. You are the one who needs to defend your judgment of our practice. Attempting to deflect questions by asking absurd questions of me over things I never said will not absolve you of the burden I and others are putting on you. Right now you need to establish how much you know about Orthodox priesthood and why we reserve it for men only. Right now you need to establish why egalitarianism is such a noble goal that our practice of a male-only priesthood is wrong because it isn't what you call "egalitarian". Right now you need to establish your qualifications to condemn a practice with which you disagree.

Forget it. I tried to explain where I was coming from and it went right over your head. I might as well talk to wall.
Now you know how I feel with your twisting in the wind and your crass refusal to give a direct answer to any questions asked of you. Every time someone asks you a question, you think you know where the questioner is leading you and respond with an absurd question that shows that you really have no idea. The only common thread is that every absurd question you ask only puts you back on the offensive--you want us to engage you, but you won't engage us. That's not dialogue, though.

Alright, I'll consider what you're saying.

I should withdraw. This is getting too emotional for me.
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1608 on: June 09, 2015, 12:47:16 PM »
This article entitled "Rethinking 'Biblical Equality'" helped me understand better the role of a priest as well as why the priesthood is open only to men.

So to summarize-

Men are superior because they're bigger and stronger, but women are still their ontological equals- sounds like doubletalk to me.
If after reading the article you can summarize it in this way... How poorly you comprehend what is said therein.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1609 on: June 09, 2015, 05:19:49 PM »
Yes. The article has the classic giving life-taking life distinction as the explanation for the difference of roles between men and women, and why women can't become priests. In fact, I don't know why this is even an issue, becasue I'm not sure as to who would have an interest in seeing this put into action. There are many roles that women do that men can't, so it's only fair that it should be the other way around as well for other roles. If anyone wants to prove that female priesthood is needed, please present proofs and reasons why, because otherwise, this is a moot point.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1610 on: June 09, 2015, 07:43:14 PM »
Fatherhood is just as high a calling as motherhood. But women have no equivalent when it comes to the priesthood.

What is "fatherhood"?  What is "motherhood"?  And what is "priesthood"?

The condition of being a father, mother, and priest, respectively. It has functions and it's a condition such that the respective nouns apply to each.

I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear (I'd hate to think you were being intentionally obtuse).  What is "father"?  What is "mother"?  What is "priest"? 

Quote
That is the answer to your question. Just like God created blacks to be free people, I see no reason to think that He didn't create women to be capable of being priests.

God didn't "create blacks to be free people", he created people free and some of those people happen to be "black". 

Quote
Even when people are physically incapable of something, there's still the possibility of a reasonable equivalent.


How are you defining "reasonable equivalent"? 

Quote
In the case of parenthood, there are the counterparts of mother and father to make up for the biological differences.

What does this mean?

Quote
Presbyteras though are not nearly equal to priests.

Nope, and introducing them into this discussion is pointless.   

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
What male-only priesthood advocates really need to prove is that all is doom and gloom whenever a female priest is ordained (a literalistic reading of 1 Peter 3:7's "weaker vessel" would also help).

Why is that the standard?

Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.

An argument based on an "if".  You've convinced me.  :P

Like I said, I think there's good reason to assume said "if."

Yes, but I don't believe you've really explained that beyond positing that God is unloving for not creating an egalitarian world, priesthood as function, etc.  IOW, this is an issue of how you define and interact with reality and how the Church, insofar as it doesn't necessarily go along for the ride, is a poopyface.   
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1611 on: June 09, 2015, 07:44:27 PM »
As I understand it, in relation to a bishop the priest is essentially an assistant/servant with greater ability to perform sacraments who serves at the bishop's pleasure.

You need to study more.  This is a caricature.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1612 on: June 09, 2015, 08:08:05 PM »
Whatever grace is imparted by ordination is for use for the congregation. It isn't some ontological change.

It's true that we don't typically speak of ordination as an ontological change in the way Roman Catholics do, and yet ordination is something more than "grace imparted for use for the congregation", at least based on the ordination rites.  Also, in the rare case that a deposed priest is reinstated, he isn't ordained to the priesthood again: his deposition is reversed and he assumes his place among the other clerics of his order.  If it was pure function, then I find it difficult to imagine the circumstances in which it wouldn't be preferable to re-ordain the man publicly rather than just send him a letter saying "Here's your new parish assignment, Sunday Liturgy is scheduled to begin at 9am, make sure to set your alarm."

Ok, but you still have to show that being male is an essential part of said ontological change.

Do I? 

I think it's reasonable to expect a theological answer for why (if at all) "being male" is "an essential part" of being ordained to the priesthood.  I think it's reasonable even to criticise attempts that don't seem to pass muster.  But I'm not convinced that an unbroken tradition of over nineteen centuries which was only overturned by a minority of Christians within our lifetime is not evidence enough.  The Church has had (in some places still has) deaconesses, abbesses who are in some traditions treated almost as bishops, anointed queens with an anointing sometimes considered sacramental, missionaries, martyrs, even a Theotokos.  One thing we have never had, never even considered AFAIK, is a woman priest.  If the weight of that historical precedent isn't enough, you might as well discard Scripture.         

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Reinstatement can be explained by convenience.

Yeah, but it's a pretty stupid explanation if there's nothing to priesthood other than function. 

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Denying them this equality for no clear reason is a denial of the equality of their image.

This is like saying a man is less in the image of God than a woman because a man cannot give birth.  "Ejaculate and wait" is not a "reasonable equivalent". 

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Hindus aren't ordained for the clear reason that they aren't believes (for a start). I never said being in the Image of God is the only necessary requirement.

What are the requirements?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1613 on: June 09, 2015, 08:08:52 PM »
...denying women equal authority with men when there's no good reason to so is also clearly wrong.

What is the nature of this authority? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1614 on: June 09, 2015, 08:12:12 PM »
Both, men and women, are loved by God, and "used" by Him to grow and strengthen His Church.  However, Christ DID pick 12 male disciples....even though He was surrounded by willing and eager women...who nonetheless followed Him and supported the Apostles.  While they weren't chosen to be Apostles, they were also not told to go away, but, were present at many great moments.  The women were the first to be given the Good News of Christ's resurrection....and they were the ones who shared it with the men.  The women were the first to see the Resurrected Christ.  The women were the ones who stood steadfast at His crucifixion and were constants in the Church, when the men faltered. 

The women still do this today.  We have a huge role to play in life....which is not diminished in the least because we don't get to wear a cassock.

Spoken like a real victim.  ;)
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1615 on: June 09, 2015, 09:13:18 PM »
but the priest in the EO liturgy presides over a "reasonable and unbloody sacrifice", so is not a life-taker.

I can think of one good reason... two great preachers I know are women.  One is an Episcopal priest (they usually go by pastor or mother), the other is a lay preacher in the Church of England.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 09:17:58 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1616 on: June 09, 2015, 09:16:43 PM »
but the priest in the EO liturgy presides over a "reasonable and unbloody sacrifice", so is not a life-taker.

I can think of one good reason... two great preachers I know are women.  One is an Episcopal priest, the other is a lay preacher in the Church of England.

You can preach without being a priest.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1617 on: June 09, 2015, 10:15:03 PM »
Saint Nino aside, I don't think we have any lay preachers today in the Orthodox church, at least not operating in a capacity sanctioned by the hierarchy.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1618 on: June 09, 2015, 10:19:42 PM »
Saint Nino aside, I don't think we have any lay preachers today in the Orthodox church, at least not operating in a capacity sanctioned by the hierarchy.

Maybe there should be some. Especially in countries (like the USA) that are essentially mission fields.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1619 on: June 09, 2015, 10:26:48 PM »
Saint Nino aside, I don't think we have any lay preachers today in the Orthodox church, at least not operating in a capacity sanctioned by the hierarchy.
We do, in fact. The Church of Greece has had theologically trained lay preachers for some time. I cannot speak for other churches, though.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 10:27:18 PM by Antonis »
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