Author Topic: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church  (Read 377955 times)

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1530 on: June 08, 2015, 07:29:19 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1531 on: June 08, 2015, 07:31:01 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1532 on: June 08, 2015, 07:42:03 PM »
Even that reasoning doesn't hold water, because you're dictating the terms God must follow in order to be seen as a loving God and then declaring that He is not really a loving God if He doesn't meet your terms. It does not follow that God created this world to be an egalitarian world.

If it is just my opinion, then you're right. But I think it's as manifestly true as the equality of blacks with whites is.

Of course, knowing you I expect you're going to ask me to prove that now...


But how does refusal to ordain women to the priesthood keep them in eternal subordination to men?

How does the refusal to allow women the vote keep them in eternal subordination to men? "Pray, Pay, and Obey," indeed.

And now for the million-dollar question: How does your argument for the ordination of women pertain to the OP's request that we prove Anglicanism false?

You ask me a question and then in the next post tell me the whole discussion is off topic? What is this, entrapment?

Anyway, I'd say that if the Anglicans are right about ordination of women and the Orthodox are in error, then Anglicanism is closer to God's truth than Orthodoxy is.

But you're right, it doesn't directly relate to the OP. I just can't resist a rabbit trail on one of my favorite topic to descend into godless despair over.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 07:42:35 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1533 on: June 08, 2015, 07:48:58 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.

The head of the local congregation who serves in the bishop's stead ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1534 on: June 08, 2015, 07:52:07 PM »

Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
It isn't?  :o It seems to have been good enough for pretty much the rest of our faith. Why make an exception with a female priesthood?

Leaving aside the contentious issue of homosexuality, I can't think of anything that Orthodoxy calls a sin that doesn't manifestly cause suffering on some level. Maybe oral sex, but I'm not sure about that one.

God is not an arbitrary tyrant here to destroy us with the law.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but there are many things that are deemed to be sins that do not cause manifested suffering. Idolatry, blasphemy, witchcraft, neglecting attending church, etc are just a few that don't cause any suffering per se, but God says not to have any other gods, so we do what He says.

I can somewhat understand your argument if it were a matter that all men were priests and all women were not, but that is not the case. Many men are equally not suited to the priesthood and are barred from it for a number of reasons. It isn't like any man can just up and become a priest. Being a man is just one of many requirements for the vocation. The same man (St. Paul) that proclaimed there is now no male and female, bond or free also reinforced the fact that the priesthood is a vocation that is only open to men and only certain qualified men at that. It isn't because it was a time in history that women were so repressed. Many religions had female religious leaders. The Greek and Roman pantheons had many priestesses. It wasn't a matter of female repression, it was a matter of following in the teachings that were given first to the prophets before Christ, then fully illuminated by Christ, handed to the Apostles and carried down to the Church.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 07:58:43 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1535 on: June 08, 2015, 07:53:49 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.

The head of the local congregation who serves in the bishop's stead ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.
And is this priesthood to be defined in purely utilitarian terms?

Do you think it possible that the priest also represents Christ to the congregation? How should that influence our thinking of the relationship of women to the ordained priesthood?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1536 on: June 08, 2015, 07:57:39 PM »

Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
It isn't?  :o It seems to have been good enough for pretty much the rest of our faith. Why make an exception with a female priesthood?

Leaving aside the contentious issue of homosexuality, I can't think of anything that Orthodoxy calls a sin that doesn't manifestly cause suffering on some level. Maybe oral sex, but I'm not sure about that one.

God is not an arbitrary tyrant here to destroy us with the law.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but there are many things that are deemed to be sins that do not cause manifested suffering. Idolatry, blasphemy, witchcraft, neglecting attending church, etc are just a few that don't cause any suffering per se, but God says not to have any other gods, so we do what He says.

All these deny the truth and cause separation from the Source of Life that is God. They may not immediately cause suffering, but they will eventually.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline biro

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1537 on: June 08, 2015, 07:57:57 PM »
Frederica Mathews-Green says the priest can't be female because the priest represents God the Father, not Christ.

Yet I was taught, as an Orthodox catechumen, that we kiss the priest's hand because he (and the bishops) represent "another Christ."

 :o

That's interesting.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1538 on: June 08, 2015, 08:00:34 PM »

Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
It isn't?  :o It seems to have been good enough for pretty much the rest of our faith. Why make an exception with a female priesthood?

Leaving aside the contentious issue of homosexuality, I can't think of anything that Orthodoxy calls a sin that doesn't manifestly cause suffering on some level. Maybe oral sex, but I'm not sure about that one.

God is not an arbitrary tyrant here to destroy us with the law.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but there are many things that are deemed to be sins that do not cause manifested suffering. Idolatry, blasphemy, witchcraft, neglecting attending church, etc are just a few that don't cause any suffering per se, but God says not to have any other gods, so we do what He says.

All these deny the truth and cause separation from the Source of Life that is God. They may not immediately cause suffering, but they will eventually.
Kind of like if you deny the truth that has been passed down through the Church regarding who is fit for the vocation of presbyter and decide to make up your own qualifications because modern culture has illumined us in a way that Christ did not?
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1539 on: June 08, 2015, 08:01:02 PM »
Frederica Mathews-Green says the priest can't be female because the priest represents God the Father, not Christ.

Yet I was taught, as an Orthodox catechumen, that we kiss the priest's hand because he (and the bishops) represent "another Christ."

 :o

That's interesting.

Yes, it is. I had always thought the term "another Christ" (alter Christus) was more of a Roman Catholic term.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1540 on: June 08, 2015, 08:01:28 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.

The head of the local congregation who serves in the bishop's stead ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.
And is this priesthood to be defined in purely utilitarian terms?

So you think that a priest is a different being than a layman? Whatever grace is imparted by ordination is for use for the congregation. It isn't some ontological change.

Do you think it possible that the priest also represents Christ to the congregation? How should that influence our thinking of the relationship of women to the ordained priesthood?

Women are just as much in the image of God as men are. I don't see why it should cause a conflict. A child obeys both his father and his mother and is to love them both equally.

Is it because you're worried people might not think that God has a penis?
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1541 on: June 08, 2015, 08:05:53 PM »

Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
It isn't?  :o It seems to have been good enough for pretty much the rest of our faith. Why make an exception with a female priesthood?

Leaving aside the contentious issue of homosexuality, I can't think of anything that Orthodoxy calls a sin that doesn't manifestly cause suffering on some level. Maybe oral sex, but I'm not sure about that one.

God is not an arbitrary tyrant here to destroy us with the law.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but there are many things that are deemed to be sins that do not cause manifested suffering. Idolatry, blasphemy, witchcraft, neglecting attending church, etc are just a few that don't cause any suffering per se, but God says not to have any other gods, so we do what He says.

All these deny the truth and cause separation from the Source of Life that is God. They may not immediately cause suffering, but they will eventually.
Kind of like if you deny the truth that has been passed down through the Church regarding who is fit for the vocation of presbyter and decide to make up your own qualifications because modern culture has illumined us in a way that Christ did not?

Is it a truth of God or an artifact of ancient culture? Should we bring back the sacrament of holy kingship?
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1542 on: June 08, 2015, 08:10:03 PM »

Women are just as much in the image of God as men are. I don't see why it should cause a conflict. A child obeys both his father and his mother and is to love them both equally.

Is it because you're worried people might not think that God has a penis?
I don't think penises have anything to do with it. It might not be politically correect to say so, but the fact is that people relate to men and women differently. Watch children and see their relationships with their father and their mother. They are just different. Not in a bad way, just in a complementary way. It is part of the reason why single parent homes are a poor substitute for the traditional nuclear family. Perhaps God wants us to relate to Him and to our spiritual guide (priest) is in a child/father relationship and not a child/mother relationship. There are many things in the Church that uphold traditional gender roles. Following childbirth, the woman does not enter the church for 40 days.

The Theotokos is the Mother and Queen of the Church. Christ is the Head of the Church. God is our Father. Each specifies a unique relationship. We can't say that the Theotokos is the Head of the Church or our Father. We can't say that Christ is our Mother and Queen. They are each unique relationships that are not to be jumbled in the name of gender equality.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1543 on: June 08, 2015, 08:12:17 PM »

Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
It isn't?  :o It seems to have been good enough for pretty much the rest of our faith. Why make an exception with a female priesthood?

Leaving aside the contentious issue of homosexuality, I can't think of anything that Orthodoxy calls a sin that doesn't manifestly cause suffering on some level. Maybe oral sex, but I'm not sure about that one.

God is not an arbitrary tyrant here to destroy us with the law.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but there are many things that are deemed to be sins that do not cause manifested suffering. Idolatry, blasphemy, witchcraft, neglecting attending church, etc are just a few that don't cause any suffering per se, but God says not to have any other gods, so we do what He says.

All these deny the truth and cause separation from the Source of Life that is God. They may not immediately cause suffering, but they will eventually.
Kind of like if you deny the truth that has been passed down through the Church regarding who is fit for the vocation of presbyter and decide to make up your own qualifications because modern culture has illumined us in a way that Christ did not?

Is it a truth of God or an artifact of ancient culture? Should we bring back the sacrament of holy kingship?
I think if you read my edited response in 319, it addresses that.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1544 on: June 08, 2015, 08:17:18 PM »
If the priest represents the Father (or Christ; there seems to be some disagreement on this) at the parish, then who represents the Theotokos? Does the matushka/khouria represent her (assuming the parish has one)?


Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
It isn't?  :o It seems to have been good enough for pretty much the rest of our faith. Why make an exception with a female priesthood?

Leaving aside the contentious issue of homosexuality, I can't think of anything that Orthodoxy calls a sin that doesn't manifestly cause suffering on some level. Maybe oral sex, but I'm not sure about that one.

God is not an arbitrary tyrant here to destroy us with the law.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but there are many things that are deemed to be sins that do not cause manifested suffering. Idolatry, blasphemy, witchcraft, neglecting attending church, etc are just a few that don't cause any suffering per se, but God says not to have any other gods, so we do what He says.

All these deny the truth and cause separation from the Source of Life that is God. They may not immediately cause suffering, but they will eventually.
Kind of like if you deny the truth that has been passed down through the Church regarding who is fit for the vocation of presbyter and decide to make up your own qualifications because modern culture has illumined us in a way that Christ did not?

Is it a truth of God or an artifact of ancient culture? Should we bring back the sacrament of holy kingship?

That sacrament was applied to women, too. There were a lot of queens and empresses back then.

I couldn't see it happening in the modern West, but if some African tribe were to adopt Orthodoxy en masse, they might continue doing that with their chiefs/leaders. In Africa, tribal leaders (who are, for all intents and purposes, royalty) coexist with the more modern nation-states, with the latter having the actual civil authority but the former having cultural significance for their respective tribes.

Interestingly enough, a lot of African (and Native American) cultures are matriarchal, to at least some extent. So it's possible that in their parishes, the matushka/khouria (or whatever term they end up using in their own language) might actually take a more active role in leading the congregation than the priest himself would. His role would be limited to the sacraments and she'd take care of everything else.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1545 on: June 08, 2015, 08:26:13 PM »

Women are just as much in the image of God as men are. I don't see why it should cause a conflict. A child obeys both his father and his mother and is to love them both equally.

Is it because you're worried people might not think that God has a penis?
I don't think penises have anything to do with it. It might not be politically correect to say so, but the fact is that people relate to men and women differently. Watch children and see their relationships with their father and their mother. They are just different. Not in a bad way, just in a complementary way. It is part of the reason why single parent homes are a poor substitute for the traditional nuclear family. Perhaps God wants us to relate to Him and to our spiritual guide (priest) is in a child/father relationship and not a child/mother relationship.

And how are the relationships different in any way that would impact the priesthood?

There are many things in the Church that uphold traditional gender roles. Following childbirth, the woman does not enter the church for 40 days.

An unchristian vestige of Jewish ritual purity thinking.

The Theotokos is the Mother and Queen of the Church. Christ is the Head of the Church. God is our Father. Each specifies a unique relationship. We can't say that the Theotokos is the Head of the Church or our Father. We can't say that Christ is our Mother and Queen. They are each unique relationships that are not to be jumbled in the name of gender equality.

The difference is that Christ is God and the Theotokos is not. Men and women are both non-God human beings.

There's nothing complimentary about expecting women to submit to the Church and then denying any role of authority within it. That's almost the textbook definition of slavery.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 08:27:35 PM by Volnutt »
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1546 on: June 08, 2015, 08:31:50 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.

The head of the local congregation who serves in the bishop's stead ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.
And is this priesthood to be defined in purely utilitarian terms?

So you think that a priest is a different being than a layman?
Ya know, you might debate a lot more effectively if you wouldn't answer every question with a question that only reveals the straw man you just created of the logic behind the question to which you're responding.

So you think that a priest is a different being than a layman? Whatever grace is imparted by ordination is for use for the congregation. It isn't some ontological change.

Do you think it possible that the priest also represents Christ to the congregation? How should that influence our thinking of the relationship of women to the ordained priesthood?

Women are just as much in the image of God as men are. I don't see why it should cause a conflict. A child obeys both his father and his mother and is to love them both equally.

Is it because you're worried people might not think that God has a penis?
Stop with the straw men. OK? They only make you look foolish.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 08:33:39 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1547 on: June 08, 2015, 08:37:33 PM »

I can somewhat understand your argument if it were a matter that all men were priests and all women were not, but that is not the case. Many men are equally not suited to the priesthood and are barred from it for a number of reasons. It isn't like any man can just up and become a priest. Being a man is just one of many requirements for the vocation.

I'm not arguing for all women to be priests. But some men are priests and no women are.

The same man (St. Paul) that proclaimed there is now no male and female, bond or free also reinforced the fact that the priesthood is a vocation that is only open to men and only certain qualified men at that. It isn't because it was a time in history that women were so repressed. Many religions had female religious leaders. The Greek and Roman pantheons had many priestesses. It wasn't a matter of female repression, it was a matter of following in the teachings that were given first to the prophets before Christ, then fully illuminated by Christ, handed to the Apostles and carried down to the Church.

Yes and the same Bible says that a bastard shall not enter the congregation of the Lord to his tenth generation. We've had no problem working around that little line.

Just because Greek culture was more enlightened than Jewish culture on this account does not mean that the forbiddance of women's ordination is a binding directive of God and not a cultural artifact.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 08:47:02 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1548 on: June 08, 2015, 08:41:50 PM »
Don't expect the EO to budge on that issue.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 08:42:11 PM by Daedelus1138 »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1549 on: June 08, 2015, 08:44:05 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.

The head of the local congregation who serves in the bishop's stead ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.
And is this priesthood to be defined in purely utilitarian terms?

So you think that a priest is a different being than a layman?
Ya know, you might debate a lot more effectively if you wouldn't answer every question with a question that only reveals the straw man you just created of the logic behind the question to which you're responding.

I'm just trying to understand your position. You claimed that I see the priesthood in merely utilitarian terms. That seems to imply in the context of this discussion that you think there is something about ordination that inherently changes the man ordained and that this change could never properly apply to a woman.

Stop with the straw men. OK? They only make you look foolish.

That's not a strawman, it's a reducio ad absurdum of the making too much of the "maleness of God."
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 08:46:13 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline The young fogey

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1550 on: June 08, 2015, 08:49:38 PM »
Egalitarianism, forcing equal outcomes, would be unjust.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1551 on: June 08, 2015, 08:52:13 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.

The head of the local congregation who serves in the bishop's stead ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.
And is this priesthood to be defined in purely utilitarian terms?

So you think that a priest is a different being than a layman?
Ya know, you might debate a lot more effectively if you wouldn't answer every question with a question that only reveals the straw man you just created of the logic behind the question to which you're responding.

I'm just trying to understand your position.
Sometimes it's better for you to explain your position than deflect questions by inquiring into someone else's.

You claimed that I see the priesthood in merely utilitarian terms.
No, I didn't. I just responded to a statement that defined the priesthood purely in utilitarian terms.

That seems to imply in the context of this discussion that you think there is something about ordination that inherently changes the man ordained and that this change could never properly apply to a woman.
I think you're reading way too much into my questions. You might try actually answering them for a change.

Stop with the straw men. OK? They only make you look foolish.

That's not a strawman, it's a reducio ad absurdum of the making too much of the "maleness of God."
It's a straw man in that it shows absolutely no understanding of what I'm really trying to do here. For one, I've said nothing about the "maleness of God".
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 08:53:43 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1552 on: June 08, 2015, 09:08:55 PM »
Egalitarianism, forcing equal outcomes, would be unjust.

I'm not asking for equal outcomes, just equal opportunities. There are many bad male priests and if women were ordained then there would be many bad female priests as well.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1553 on: June 08, 2015, 09:19:03 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.

The head of the local congregation who serves in the bishop's stead ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.
And is this priesthood to be defined in purely utilitarian terms?

So you think that a priest is a different being than a layman?
Ya know, you might debate a lot more effectively if you wouldn't answer every question with a question that only reveals the straw man you just created of the logic behind the question to which you're responding.

I'm just trying to understand your position.
Sometimes it's better for you to explain your position than deflect questions by inquiring into someone else's.

You claimed that I see the priesthood in merely utilitarian terms.
No, I didn't. I just responded to a statement that defined the priesthood purely in utilitarian terms.

I didn't define it in purely utilitarian terms. The priesthood is a calling, a sacrament, and a position that requires great preparation, love, and commitment. That's not mere utilitarianism, it's just a description of what a priest does. A father does a range of things for the kids but that isn't to say that those things are all there is to being a father.

That seems to imply in the context of this discussion that you think there is something about ordination that inherently changes the man ordained and that this change could never properly apply to a woman.
I think you're reading way too much into my questions. You might try actually answering them for a change.

Fine. Question answered.

So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest? My answer is: nothing.


It's a straw man in that it shows absolutely no understanding of what I'm really trying to do here. For one, I've said nothing about the "maleness of God".

Ok, than I misunderstood your argument. I thought you were trying to say that male priests are the only legitimate priests because they are the same gender as God. My bad.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 09:20:04 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1554 on: June 08, 2015, 09:20:24 PM »
Egalitarianism, forcing equal outcomes, would be unjust.

I'm not asking for equal outcomes, just equal opportunities.

Part of the plausibility of women priests, as is the argument that sex is only incidental to the priesthood, that it's a matter of discipline, not doctrine. So teaches the liberal high church, the Episcopal Church.

The Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, the Non-Chalcedonian churches, and the Assyrian Church don't agree and never will.

And again, ordaining women hasn't stopped mainline denominations' decline. Whoever they're trying to impress isn't impressed.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1555 on: June 08, 2015, 09:40:27 PM »
So what is there about a female male priest that would make her different from a male priest?
We now ordain transgendered persons?  :o This slope has become slippery, indeed. ;) Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

My answer is: nothing.
Again, what do you know of priesthood that you can give such an answer?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 09:42:49 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1556 on: June 08, 2015, 09:48:26 PM »
Orthodox would probably argue a priest needs a beard to look like Christ.  However, western Christians do not have an iconic theology of the priesthood, and never really have had one.

(The local Antiochian priest, however, is beardless.)
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1557 on: June 08, 2015, 09:55:44 PM »
Have any Fathers or Councils in the first millennium explicitly said that women should not be ordained?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 10:00:28 PM by byhisgrace »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1558 on: June 08, 2015, 09:57:56 PM »
Quote
Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

The First World Anglicans are already on that and have been for some time. The world's still not impressed.

Orthodox would probably argue a priest needs a beard to look like Christ.  However, western Christians do not have an iconic theology of the priesthood, and never really have had one.

(The local Antiochian priest, however, is beardless.)

There are Orthodox and Greek Catholic newbs, who, understandably loving their new home in the Byzantine Rite, might say that. As far as I know it's not what Orthodoxy really teaches and indeed in the century or so the Orthodox have been in America, many priests have gone clean-shaven, looking like Roman Catholic or Episcopal priests, to fit in. (I think future Patriarch Tikhon gave his Russian priests permission to trim their beards for secular employment and to wear suits; legend has it there is a photo of the bishop himself wearing a suit.)
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1559 on: June 08, 2015, 10:00:37 PM »
Have any Fathers or Councils in the first millennium explicitly said that women should not be ordained?
Considering that we have a 2000-year tradition of not ordaining women to the priesthood, maybe the question you need to ask is this: Have any Fathers or Councils in the first millennium explicitly said that women should be ordained? In the absence of a definitive answer, maybe we should not deviate from our tradition of not ordaining women.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 10:02:07 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1560 on: June 08, 2015, 10:01:19 PM »
Fatherhood is just as high a calling as motherhood. But women have no equivalent when it comes to the priesthood.

What is "fatherhood"?  What is "motherhood"?  And what is "priesthood"?

Quote
Quote
My argument is that if God could have created an egalitarian world then it follows that He did, or else He is not really a loving God. It's the same essential argument behind abolitionism. Huck Finn's "All right, then I'll go to Hell" immediately springs to mind.

How egalitarian does God have to be in order to be loving?

How equal do blacks have to be with whites in order to be free?

Don't dodge my question.  You are the one claiming that God is not loving for not creating an egalitarian world.  Feel free to explain your answer by explaining what you mean by "egalitarian".   

Quote
Quote
Quote
What male-only priesthood advocates really need to prove is that all is doom and gloom whenever a female priest is ordained (a literalistic reading of 1 Peter 3:7's "weaker vessel" would also help).

Why is that the standard?

Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.

An argument based on an "if".  You've convinced me.  :P
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 10:31:14 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1561 on: June 08, 2015, 10:04:27 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?

"Priesthood" =/= "Joel Osteen with rituals". 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1562 on: June 08, 2015, 10:04:40 PM »
Quote
Soon we're going to ordain Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner to the priesthood.

The First World Anglicans are already on that and have been for some time. The world's still not impressed.

Orthodox would probably argue a priest needs a beard to look like Christ.  However, western Christians do not have an iconic theology of the priesthood, and never really have had one.

(The local Antiochian priest, however, is beardless.)

There are Orthodox and Greek Catholic newbs, who, understandably loving their new home in the Byzantine Rite, might say that. As far as I know it's not what Orthodoxy really teaches and indeed in the century or so the Orthodox have been in America, many priests have gone clean-shaven, looking like Roman Catholic or Episcopal priests, to fit in. (I think future Patriarch Tikhon gave his Russian priests permission to trim their beards for secular employment and to wear suits; legend has it there is a photo of the bishop himself wearing a suit.)

Old Believers, however, insist on beards not only for priests but also laymen as well. To them, because Christ had a beard, all men must therefore wear one. The problem with arguments like that is where do they stop? Someone could use that to make the Christian Identity argument that in order to be a Christian you need to share Christ's ethnic background, which is of course a repulsive proposition.

And then of course, what about early Western Roman depictions that show Jesus without a beard? Even though, in real life, he almost certainly did have one, yet there's a well-established tradition of depicting him without one in some places.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1563 on: June 08, 2015, 10:09:16 PM »
Because if women are just as fit to be priests as men are, then there is no good reason to deny them the priesthood. "Just because God says so," isn't good enough.
What is the nature of the ordained priesthood that women are just as fit for it as men?

Are women capable of leading and guiding? Are they capable of performing sacraments (Orthodoxy says they can baptize in extremis)? Are they capable of teaching? Are they capable of praying for others and loving them?
Speaking in statements, please define the nature of the ordained priesthood in the Orthodox Church as you understand it.

The head of the local congregation...

...is the bishop.

Quote
...who serves in the bishop's stead...

This explains what priests do when assigned to individual parish communities by their bishop (not all priests are so assigned).  This does not explain what priests are.  What's a priest in relation to a bishop?   

Quote
...ministering the sacraments, pastoring and teaching, ensuring order in the community, and representing the congregation before God.

These are all episcopal duties. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1564 on: June 08, 2015, 10:12:39 PM »
Have any Fathers or Councils in the first millennium explicitly said that women should not be ordained?
Considering that we have a 2000-year tradition of not ordaining women to the priesthood, maybe the question you need to ask is this: Have any Fathers or Councils in the first millennium explicitly said that women should be ordained? In the absence of a definitive answer, maybe we should not deviate from our tradition of not ordaining women.

I suppose that's fair, though I find it hard to believe that egalitarianism has never even been an issue in the first 1800 years of Church History. At least one heretic must have raised it, and at least one Father must have addressed it. No?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 10:15:53 PM by byhisgrace »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1565 on: June 08, 2015, 10:15:02 PM »
Have any Fathers or Councils in the first millennium explicitly said that women should not be ordained?
Considering that we have a 2000-year tradition of not ordaining women to the priesthood, maybe the question you need to ask is this: Have any Fathers or Councils in the first millennium explicitly said that women should be ordained? In the absence of a definitive answer, maybe we should not deviate from our tradition of not ordaining women.

Since, as many Episcopalians call us, the Rrrrroman Church ("hey, we're Catholic too" plus snobbery) has the Fathers and those councils among its sources, we say the same thing.

Right, ministering in church as Joel Osteen with rituals, or as primarily a teacher, not a priest, is why Methodists, Presbyterians, et al., started ordaining women. But the Anglicans claimed to be kin to Catholics and Orthodox by claiming apostolic succession, so some of us born among them thought somehow we were Catholic. Women's ordination was Anglicanism's eff-you to us.

Quote
I find it hard to believe that egalitarianism has never even been an issue in the first 1800 years of Church History.

Egalitarianism really only dates from the "Enlightenment," circa 1800.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1566 on: June 08, 2015, 10:26:27 PM »
Whatever grace is imparted by ordination is for use for the congregation. It isn't some ontological change.

It's true that we don't typically speak of ordination as an ontological change in the way Roman Catholics do, and yet ordination is something more than "grace imparted for use for the congregation", at least based on the ordination rites.  Also, in the rare case that a deposed priest is reinstated, he isn't ordained to the priesthood again: his deposition is reversed and he assumes his place among the other clerics of his order.  If it was pure function, then I find it difficult to imagine the circumstances in which it wouldn't be preferable to re-ordain the man publicly rather than just send him a letter saying "Here's your new parish assignment, Sunday Liturgy is scheduled to begin at 9am, make sure to set your alarm." 

Quote
Do you think it possible that the priest also represents Christ to the congregation? How should that influence our thinking of the relationship of women to the ordained priesthood?

Women are just as much in the image of God as men are. I don't see why it should cause a conflict. A child obeys both his father and his mother and is to love them both equally.

Is it because you're worried people might not think that God has a penis?

What does the "image of God" have to do with this?  No one is denying that both men and women are created in the image of God, but that's not nearly the only requirement for ordination.  If it was, why are you proposing only the ordination of women?  Why not the ordination of Hindus?   
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 10:26:43 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1567 on: June 08, 2015, 10:30:20 PM »
Fatherhood is just as high a calling as motherhood. But women have no equivalent when it comes to the priesthood.

What about this? It isn't actually an ordained status, but they do have a major role to play in the operation of most parishes (the ones that aren't led by hieromonks).
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1568 on: June 08, 2015, 10:33:22 PM »
Orthodox would probably argue a priest needs a beard to look like Christ. 

Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1569 on: June 08, 2015, 11:15:20 PM »
Ive always thought that just as only women can be mothers, even sterile women are capable of a unique love for their adopted offspring, so too do men have a special calling to the Priesthood, going back to the religion of Israel.

But as our legends surrounding Mary as a temple servant, and our nuns show, women can be sacred ministers, even deaconesses, whose duties were very different from those of the ancient deacons, yet similiar, in that both helped deliver a sacrament (the eucharist for the deacons and baprism for women, by the deaconesses).  And we venerate St. Mary over all male saints, no one else receives hyperdoulia, while latria is of course only offered to the triune God.

So I dont think claims of sexism hold water in regard to the Orthodox Church.  The matushkas are as important to the life of the parish as the priest in many cases and we pay a premium for married priests so that we get the whole package, including the matushka.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1570 on: June 08, 2015, 11:36:02 PM »
I've been at the same parish for the past five years, through the administrations of two priests, and never once met either of the presbyteras.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1571 on: June 08, 2015, 11:57:17 PM »
Have any Fathers or Councils in the first millennium explicitly said that women should not be ordained?
Considering that we have a 2000-year tradition of not ordaining women to the priesthood, maybe the question you need to ask is this: Have any Fathers or Councils in the first millennium explicitly said that women should be ordained? In the absence of a definitive answer, maybe we should not deviate from our tradition of not ordaining women.

I suppose that's fair, though I find it hard to believe that egalitarianism has never even been an issue in the first 1800 years of Church History. At least one heretic must have raised it, and at least one Father must have addressed it. No?
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1572 on: June 09, 2015, 12:01:26 AM »
No longer locked for split
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:15:00 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1573 on: June 09, 2015, 12:06:24 AM »
NVM
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:09:33 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1574 on: June 09, 2015, 12:10:34 AM »
What else do you find hard to believe?

byhisgrace is an enquirer into Orthodoxy. Why are you so harsh on him?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?