Author Topic: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church  (Read 219294 times)

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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1395 on: August 10, 2009, 02:15:50 PM »
As  the Eastern Patriarchs  responded  to  Pope Leo XIII, "Even if  we  would, we  could  not  change the Orthodox Faith;  the People  are the  Guardians  of the Orthodox Faith".
So then what are you worried about? Why can't the issue be discussed at the Synod?

Do you truly have no idea how disruptive this discussion would prove to be in the life of the Church?  Why would we want to create an artifical and unnecessary threat to the unity of the Church?  As Fr Schmemann says, women's ordination for us is a casus irrealis.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 02:16:56 PM by Irish Hermit »

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1396 on: August 10, 2009, 02:17:00 PM »
Quote
I realize what George's intention is but not all discussions must be a debate, and I certainly do not talk to friends asking for sources in facts everytime I disagree with there thoughts.

With an issue as big as this I would hope that any arguments brought up have sources instead of feelings.

We must remember that the decisions of the Church are based on what is good to us and the Holy Spirit.

Fine, the Church has never permitted a single women presbyter in two thousand years, and know we want to analyze whether are not the Church was right or wrong all that time. Wow do we think a lot of ourselves! That's how I feel!!

You want facts and sources, look a Paul's letter to Timothy and Titus which was inspired scripture!!

Why don't we still stone people?

Squeemishness.

Quote
Why do we not believe the Earth to be flat?

Same reason the ECF didn't.

Quote
Why do we allow divorce in the Church?

Same reason Christ and St. Paul said.  The misuse of those pastoral concerns hasn't changed the morality, just misued it.

Quote
Why do we allow woman to speak in the church?

Because St. Paul didn't shut up neither St. Priscilla nor St. Thecla.

When Christ was living in human flesh, He deliberately selected twelve men to be His Apostles

third compelling reason for the male priesthood. Orthodox Christians believe that their bishops, priests and deacons are Ikons of Christ and therefore must be male because Jesus Christ is male.

I admit that the person shot himself in the foot by mentioning deacons.

Quote
Jesus was also a 1st century Jew, that doesn't make it a requirement.

No, those Jews Jesus chose in the 1st century made it not a requirement.


Quote
In this debate I have only heard one really well thought out argument from the male only priesthood and it was a post by asterikos about the role of the male and female in the life of God, very compelling and actual original take rather than these weak already hashed out arguments.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1397 on: August 10, 2009, 02:18:14 PM »
As  the Eastern Patriarchs  responded  to  Pope Leo XIII, "Even if  we  would, we  could  not  change the Orthodox Faith;  the People  are the  Guardians  of the Orthodox Faith".
So then what are you worried about? Why can't the issue be discussed at the Synod?

Because the correct interpretation of canon 28 of Chalcedon is going to take up all the time.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1398 on: August 10, 2009, 02:18:28 PM »
Are you claiming that as a justification for ordaining women?
No. You (and others) seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that this is what its all about.

If the Spirit is guiding the Orthodox Church, why can't the issue of women's ordination be discussed at the Synod?
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1399 on: August 10, 2009, 02:20:28 PM »
Quote
Not being argumentative, I just don't get your point here.  Please explain.

Galatians 3:28 (King James Version)

 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

If our identity in Christ is sexless then why is our priesthood? Again just like George I am not for one side or the other I am just saying this issue isn't black and white.

If there is neither Jew nor Greek, why does your Church forbid Greeks to marry Jews?

In other words, should we not be looking at what these words mean rather than what they say?

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1400 on: August 10, 2009, 02:20:41 PM »
Are you claiming that as a justification for ordaining women?
No. You (and others) seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that this is what its all about.

If the Spirit is guiding the Orthodox Church, why can't the issue of women's ordination be discussed at the Synod?

Oh, I think its a different spirit whose camel's nose is peeping into the tabernacle.

If it was the Holy Spirit, this issue would come from within the Church, sort of like how the celibate bishop rule came up.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1401 on: August 10, 2009, 02:21:34 PM »
As  the Eastern Patriarchs  responded  to  Pope Leo XIII, "Even if  we  would, we  could  not  change the Orthodox Faith;  the People  are the  Guardians  of the Orthodox Faith".
So then what are you worried about? Why can't the issue be discussed at the Synod?

Because the correct interpretation of canon 28 of Chalcedon is going to take up all the time.

Yup and the prelim draught of a resolution has already been laid out and reported here on oc.net.  Shout to the Lord all the Earth!

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1402 on: August 10, 2009, 02:23:03 PM »

This issue is not "black and white" because you choose for it not to be.

To me (feelings aside) it is black and white.

All the arguments against a female priesthood, are more than enough for my naive and immature mind.

You can overturn every moss covered rock you can find and try to prove all these arguments wrong.

Knock yourselves out.  Play your silly word games until you have pleased your own desires for whatever end you are searching.

Dispute away!  Belittle your fellow Orthodox all you want.  Continue unheeded.

This entire discussion has no end in sight because you refuse to accept what has been written. You are all just looking for a "fight".  Two thousand years (including the time of Christ) has had no female priests within the True Church.  But, NO...you know so much better!

God save the Orthodox Church from supporters like yourselves....your "support" of Her will lead to Her ruin.

I have read enough...

I am convinced that women have NO PLACE in the Orthodox church as priests.

As you are not convinced, continue on with your useless and petty bickering!

Lord, have mercy on us ALL!


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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1403 on: August 10, 2009, 02:24:15 PM »
If it was the Holy Spirit, this issue would come from within the Church, sort of like how the celibate bishop rule came up.
Should we be Arians then, since that not only came from within the Church, but was the majority opinion?
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1404 on: August 10, 2009, 02:26:06 PM »
Are you claiming that as a justification for ordaining women?
No. You (and others) seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that this is what its all about.

If the Spirit is guiding the Orthodox Church, why can't the issue of women's ordination be discussed at the Synod?

Refer to message #248.   We shall see widespread schism in the Church even before the Synod opens if such an item is even mooted for discussion.   Is this the role of our bishops - to divide us?  Have we not learnt our lesson from the Russian Old Believer schism and the Greek Old Calendarist schism?   Are we hell-bent on suicide and destruction?

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1405 on: August 10, 2009, 02:28:23 PM »
As  the Eastern Patriarchs  responded  to  Pope Leo XIII, "Even if  we  would, we  could  not  change the Orthodox Faith;  the People  are the  Guardians  of the Orthodox Faith".
So then what are you worried about? Why can't the issue be discussed at the Synod?

Because the correct interpretation of canon 28 of Chalcedon is going to take up all the time.

Yup and the prelim draught of a resolution has already been laid out and reported here on oc.net.  Shout to the Lord all the Earth!

Do you mean that we may see a Patriarch of All the Barbarian Lands?

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1406 on: August 10, 2009, 02:32:45 PM »
If it was the Holy Spirit, this issue would come from within the Church, sort of like how the celibate bishop rule came up.
Should we be Arians then, since that not only came from within the Church, but was the majority opinion?

Couldn't we be Gnostics?  Some of them seemed to have fun times at their all-night parties.  :laugh:

Offline SDMPNS

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1407 on: August 10, 2009, 02:46:28 PM »
I will not be a part of any group which does not use alcohol.We Orthodox also have great hats...and that Eagle Rug is to die for! I do wish this issue of Women's Ordination could be discussed in a Great and Holy Council so the Church may address its opposition, if opposition continues, in a studied manner.It sometimes appears that we are only against it for mainly cultural reasons..Bp.Ware has stated some agreement with the ordination of women and I do not think he was hauled off to Constantinople for re-education therapy..
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 02:50:06 PM by SDMPNS »

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1408 on: August 10, 2009, 03:03:45 PM »
If it was the Holy Spirit, this issue would come from within the Church, sort of like how the celibate bishop rule came up.
Should we be Arians then, since that not only came from within the Church, but was the majority opinion?

Thankfully the Fathers and others can distinguish between healthy tissue and cancer tumors.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1409 on: August 10, 2009, 03:11:14 PM »
Do you mean that we may see a Patriarch of All the Barbarian Lands?

Because the correct interpretation of canon 28 of Chalcedon is going to take up all the time.

Sigh...
Nice to know what you guys are really talking about here.
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1410 on: August 10, 2009, 03:29:48 PM »
Do you mean that we may see a Patriarch of All the Barbarian Lands?

Because the correct interpretation of canon 28 of Chalcedon is going to take up all the time.

Sigh...
Nice to know what you guys are really talking about here.

Difficult to see the logic in thinking that *one* mention of canon 28 in 250 posts constitutes "what you guys are really talking about here."

Offline mike

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1411 on: August 10, 2009, 03:35:27 PM »
Fine, the Church has never permitted a single women presbyter in two thousand years

Wrong.
Quote
Presbytides, as they are called, or female presidents, are not to be appointed in the Church.
source

It used to be allowed in some areas but it became forbidden.
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Offline Michael L

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1412 on: August 10, 2009, 04:57:07 PM »


When Christ was living in human flesh, He deliberately selected twelve men to be His Apostles

third compelling reason for the male priesthood. Orthodox Christians believe that their bishops, priests and deacons are Ikons of Christ and therefore must be male because Jesus Christ is male.

I admit that the person shot himself in the foot by mentioning deacons.

 

Lets be careful with quoting I never wrote the above statment. Just follow the link. I realize that there have been deaconesses.

Offline Michael L

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1413 on: August 10, 2009, 05:06:28 PM »
Fine, the Church has never permitted a single women presbyter in two thousand years

Wrong.
Quote
Presbytides, as they are called, or female presidents, are not to be appointed in the Church.
source

It used to be allowed in some areas but it became forbidden.

I was referring to the PRIESTHOOD. Women have never been part of the priesthood. Your own source clearly says this:

Quote
I think the first light is thrown on the subject by Epiphanius, who in his treatise against the Collyridians (Hær., lxxix. 4) says that “women had never been allowed to offer sacrifice, as the Collyridians presumed to do, but were only allowed to minister.  Therefore there were only deaconesses in the Church, and even if the oldest among them were called ‘presbytides,’ this term must be clearly distinguished from presbyteresses.  The latter would mean priestesses (ἱερίσσας), but ‘presbytides’ only designated their age, as seniors.”

Offline mike

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1414 on: August 10, 2009, 05:18:33 PM »
Quote
I was referring to the PRIESTHOOD. Women have never been part of the priesthood. Your own source clearly says this:

The canon says that some groups (Collyridians or whatever) started to ordain women to the second level of orders and it was forbidden by the council. It did took place.
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Offline Michael L

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1415 on: August 10, 2009, 05:35:03 PM »
Quote
I was referring to the PRIESTHOOD. Women have never been part of the priesthood. Your own source clearly says this:

The canon says that some groups (Collyridians or whatever) started to ordain women to the second level of orders and it was forbidden by the council. It did took place.

Are you really suggesting that this group the Was part of the Orthodox Church?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

Quote
Collyridianism was an obscure early Christian heretical movement whose adherents apparently worshipped Mary, the mother of Jesus, as a goddess. The main source of information about them comes from their strongest opponent, Epiphanius of Salamis, who wrote about them in his Panarion of about AD 375. According to Epiphanius, certain women in then-largely-pagan Arabia syncretized indigenous beliefs with the worship of Mary, and offered little cakes or bread-rolls (Greek κολλυρις – a word occurring in the Septuagint) to her. Epiphanius states that Collyridianism originated in Thrace and Scythia, although it may have first travelled to those regions from Syria or Asia Minor. Little else is known.

In his book The Virgin, however, Geoffrey Ashe puts forward the hypothesis that the Collyridians represented a parallel Marian religion to Christianity, founded by first-generation followers of the Virgin Mary, whose doctrines were later subsumed by the Church at the Council of Ephesus in 432. Averil Cameron has been more sceptical about whether a cult even existed, noting that Epiphanius is the only source for the cult, and that later authors simply refer back to his text.[1] Some women interested in feminist spirituality claim the Collyridians as precursors.

The Collyridians have become of interest in some recent Muslim-Christian religious discussions in reference to the Islamic concept of the Christian Trinity. The debate hinges on some verses in the Qur'an, primarily [Qur'an 5:73], [Qur'an 5:75], and [Qur'an 5:116] in the sura Al-Ma'ida, which have been taken to imply that Christians considered Mary part of the Trinity. This has never been a widespread belief or doctrine among Christian or quasi-Christian groups at any period of history, and has led to speculation that Muhammad was mistaken, perhaps confusing heretical Collyridian beliefs with those of orthodox Christianity. However, there is no evidence that Collyridianism still existed in Muhammad's time (the 6th and 7th centuries AD). Some reject the interpretation according to which the Qur'an is said to assert that Mary was part of the Trinity, as the relevant statements can be seen as emphasizing the purely human nature of Mary to reinforce the Islamic belief in the purely human nature of Jesus.

Offline mike

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1416 on: August 10, 2009, 05:37:25 PM »
Every heretical group had been a part of the Church.
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Offline Michael L

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1417 on: August 10, 2009, 05:48:09 PM »
Every heretical group had been a part of the Church.

Heresy my definition means that the group has denied or changed the doctrine of the church. When this is done you cease to be part of the Church. For example: many saints of the Church considered mohammedism (Islam) as a heresy of Christianity and not originally a separate religion; does that mean the the Orthodox Church accepted the Koran as revelation? By your logic it should.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1418 on: August 10, 2009, 06:13:44 PM »
Only council can decide wether changing the doctrine or practise is heretical or not, they were gathered to solve such problems. Prior to the decision we cannot decide by ourselves. Quran can't have been considered as revelation because the Bible canon had been set in 4th century.

The fact that the local council in Laodycea made a decision on female "presbyters" shows that it was an important and controversial issue. It it had only been done by a  remote non-Christian sect they would have not bothered about it. Neither of the canons judges the traditions of ancient Greek religion. They all are about Christianity.
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Offline Michael L

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1419 on: August 10, 2009, 06:31:00 PM »
The fact that the local council in Laodycea made a decision on female "presbyters" shows that it was an important and controversial issue. It it had only been done by a  remote non-Christian sect they would have not bothered about it. Neither of the canons judges the traditions of ancient Greek religion. They all are about Christianity.

Presbyters as used in the modern language refers to Priests! In the early church a presbyter was a church leader, like a council president. We may be talking about to different things. This discussion is about Women being ordained to the Priesthood. I have already quote from your source which states that women were never ordained to the priesthood as we know it today.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.viii.vii.iii.xii.html?highlight=women#highlight
Quote
Canon XI.

Presbytides, as they are called, or female presidents, are not to be appointed in the Church.

130Notes.

Ancient Epitome of Canon XI.

Widows called presidents shall not be appointed in churches.

Balsamon.

In old days certain venerable women (πρεσβύτιδες) sat in Catholic churches, and took care that the other women kept good and modest order.  But from their habit of using improperly that which was proper, either through their arrogancy or through their base self-seeking, scandal arose.  Therefore the Fathers prohibited the existence in the Church thereafter of any more such women as are called presbytides or presidents.  And that no one may object that in the monasteries of women one woman must preside over the rest, it should be remembered that the renunciation which they make of themselves to God and the tonsure brings it to pass that they are thought of as one body though many; and all things which are theirs, relate only to the salvation of the soul.  But for woman to teach in a Catholic Church, where a multitude of men is gathered together, and women of different opinions, is, in the highest degree, indecorous and pernicious.

Hefele.

It is doubtful what was here intended, and this canon has received very different interpretations.  In the first place, what is the meaning of the words πρεσβύτιδες and προκαθήμεναι (“presbytides” and female presidents)?  I think the first light is thrown on the subject by Epiphanius, who in his treatise against the Collyridians (Hær., lxxix. 4) says that “women had never been allowed to offer sacrifice, as the Collyridians presumed to do, but were only allowed to minister.  Therefore there were only deaconesses in the Church, and even if the oldest among them were called ‘presbytides,’ this term must be clearly distinguished from presbyteresses.  The latter would mean priestesses (ἱερίσσας), but ‘presbytides’ only designated their age, as seniors.”  According to this, the canon appears to treat of the superior deaconesses who were the overseers (προκαθήμεναι) of the other deaconesses; and the further words of the text may then probably mean that in future no more such superior deaconesses or eldresses were to be appointed, probably because they had often outstepped their authority.

Neander, Fuchs, and others, however, think it more probable that the terms in question are in this canon to be taken as simply meaning deaconesses, for even in the church they had been wont to preside over the female portion of the congregation (whence their name of “presidents”); and, according to St. Paul’s rule, only widows over sixty years of age were to be chosen for this office (hence called “presbytides”).  We may add, that this direction of the apostle was not very strictly adhered to subsequently, but still it was repeatedly enjoined that only elder persons should be chosen as deaconesses.  Thus, for instance, the Council of Chalcedon, in its fifteenth canon, required that deaconesses should be at least forty years of age, while the Emperor Theodosius even prescribed the age of sixty.

Supposing now that this canon simply treats of deaconesses, a fresh doubt arises as to how the last words—“they are not to be appointed in the Church” are to be understood.  For it may mean that “from henceforth no more deaconesses shall be appointed;” or, that “in future they shall no more be solemnly ordained in the church.”  The first interpretation would, however, contradict the fact that the Greek Church had deaconesses long after the Synod of Laodicea.  For instance, in 692 the Synod in Trullo (Can. xiv.) ordered that “no one under forty years of age should be ordained deaconess.”  Consequently the second interpretation, “they shall not be solemnly ordained in the church,” seems a better one, and Neander decidedly prefers it.  It is certainly true that several later synods distinctly forbade the old practice of conferring a sort of ordination upon deaconesses, as, for instance, the first Synod of Orange (Arausicanum I. of 441, Can. xxvj.) in the words—diaconæ omnimodis non ordinandæ; also the Synod at Epaon in 517 (Can. xxj.), and the second Synod at Orleans in 533 (Can. xviij.); but in the Greek Church at least, an ordination, a χειροτονεῖσθαι , took place as late as the Council in Trullo (Can. xiv.).  But this Canon of Laodicea does not speak of solemn dedication, and certainly not of ordination, but only of καθίστασθαι.  These reasons induce us to return to the first interpretation of this canon, and to understand it as forbidding from that time forward the appointment of any more chief deaconesses or “presbytides.”

Zonaras and Balsamon give yet another explanation.  In their opinion, these “presbytides” were not chief deaconesses, but aged women in general (ex populo), to whom was 131given the supervision of the females, in church.  The Synod of Laodicea, however, did away with this arrangement, probably because they had misused their office for purposes of pride, or money-making, bribery, etc.

Compare with the foregoing the Excursus on Deaconesses, appended to Canon XIX. of Nice.

This canon is found in the Corpus Juris Canonici, Gratian’s Decretum, Pars I., Dist. XXXII., c. xix., in Isidore’s version; but Van Espen remarks that the Roman Correctors have pointed out that it departs widely from the Greek original.  The Roman Correctors further say “The note of Balsamon on this point should be seen;” and with this interpretation Morinus also agrees in his work on Holy Orders (De Ordinationibus, Pars III., Exercit. x., cap. iij., n. 3).

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1420 on: August 11, 2009, 09:17:58 AM »
Quote
I think the first light is thrown on the subject by Epiphanius, who in his treatise against the Collyridians (Hær., lxxix. 4) says that “women had never been allowed to offer sacrifice, as the Collyridians presumed to do

They have tried to ordain women "presbyters" and it was rejected.
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Offline MLPB

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1421 on: August 11, 2009, 10:00:05 AM »
I could go on...however, I am trying to make the point that the TWELVE were not women, even though there were women disciples and there were and are women "Equal to the Apostles".
Were the Apostle Bishops or Priests or Deacons in your understanding of this? If Bishops, does that still exclude women from the Priesthood (the second rank of the Clergy)? Especially since it didn't exclude them from the third rank (the Diaconate). In other words, does the evidence that none of the Apostles were women mean that women cannot be Bishops, but may be Priests and Deacons?

We look forward to the day when Her All-Holiness the Matriarch of Constantinople ascends the Great Throne.  Of course by that time the marriage of the hierarchy may have been reinstated and we look forward to a Patriarch and a Matriarch co-presiding in the Great Church.   If ecumenism reaches a successful conclusion we could even see the union of the Churches cemented by the marriage of the Pope of Rome to the Matriarch of Constantinople. That's not at all farfetched if we think logically about what you are proposing.
Nonsense, Hermit.  The Orthodox certainly will discuss/consider women priests (and just about anything else), but any rapprochement with Rome is verboten.  We all know that.   ;D

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1422 on: August 11, 2009, 11:19:03 AM »
I will not be a part of any group which does not use alcohol.

Evil man!  Away with thee!  :laugh:  It was alcohol which fuzzied the brains of Saint Mael and caused him to ordain Saint Brigid as a bishop.   Of course she was famous for the quality of the beer she brewed and would it surprise anyone if she were the patron Saint of Brewers.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1423 on: August 11, 2009, 12:33:52 PM »
I will not be a part of any group which does not use alcohol.

Evil man!  Away with thee!  :laugh:  It was alcohol which fuzzied the brains of Saint Mael and caused him to ordain Saint Brigid as a bishop.   Of course she was famous for the quality of the beer she brewed and would it surprise anyone if she were the patron Saint of Brewers.

An Irishman I knew once told me that God created beer so the Irish wouldn't conquor the world.  "Really?" I said, "I thought it was that God created the Irish so beer wouldn't flood the world." :P
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1424 on: August 11, 2009, 12:46:29 PM »
It was alcohol which fuzzied the brains of Saint Mael and caused him to ordain Saint Brigid as a bishop.   Of course she was famous for the quality of the beer she brewed and would it surprise anyone if she were the patron Saint of Brewers.

 :D Actually, I remember reading that St. Brigid encountered some lepers, who -- horror of horrors -- had no beer to drink. Instead of praying for them to be healed, she prayed that their bathwater be turned into a nice ale. And so it was.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 12:46:44 PM by pensateomnia »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1425 on: August 12, 2009, 08:37:39 AM »
It was alcohol which fuzzied the brains of Saint Mael and caused him to ordain Saint Brigid as a bishop.
Is the Grace of God alcohol?
You may hold Celtic history in disdain, but the Bethu Brigte ( http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201002/index.html )clearly states that Bishop Mel was "intoxicated with the Grace of God".
Could you provide your evidence for your claim that he was drunk?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 08:40:37 AM by ozgeorge »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1426 on: August 12, 2009, 09:14:42 AM »
It was alcohol which fuzzied the brains of Saint Mael and caused him to ordain Saint Brigid as a bishop.
Is the Grace of God alcohol?
You may hold Celtic history in disdain, but the Bethu Brigte ( http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201002/index.html )clearly states that Bishop Mel was "intoxicated with the Grace of God".
Could you provide your evidence for your claim that he was drunk?

Far better if he were drunk, dear George, and simply made a drunken mistake as the Irish tradition holds (assuming the incident has any historical reality at all.)

If we understand it your way and believe the Life is accurate and true, then the Holy Spirit approved and inspired the consecration of a female as bishop.   I am not prepared to attribute that to Him.  Are you?

PS: there are five other Lives of Saint Brigid and some older than the one you are quoting.  Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1427 on: August 12, 2009, 09:29:16 AM »
there are five other Lives of Saint Brigid and some older than the one you are quoting.  Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?
Are there five other lives of St. Brigid?
Lets have a look at the ones we know of on this thread so far.

1) The Bethu Brigte (9th century) says:
"The bishop being intoxicated with the grace of God there did not recognise what he was reciting from his book, for he consecrated Brigit with the orders of a bishop. ‘This virgin alone in Ireland’, said Mel, ‘will hold the Episcopal ordination.’ While she was being consecrated a fiery column ascended from her head." http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201002/index.html

2) The Leabhar Breac (early 15th century) says:
"It came to pass then, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, that the form of ordaining a bishop was read over Brigit. MacCaille said that ‘The order of a bishop should not be (conferred) on a woman.’ Dixit Bishop Mél: ‘No power have I in this matter, inasmuch as by God hath been given unto her this honour beyond every woman.’ Hence, it is that the men of Ireland give the honour of bishop to Brigit's successor." http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201010/index.html
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 09:29:54 AM by ozgeorge »
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1428 on: August 12, 2009, 09:55:35 AM »
there are five other Lives of Saint Brigid and some older than the one you are quoting.  Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?
Are there five other lives of St. Brigid?
Lets have a look at the ones we know of on this thread so far.

1) The Bethu Brigte (9th century) says:
"The bishop being intoxicated with the grace of God there did not recognise what he was reciting from his book, for he consecrated Brigit with the orders of a bishop. ‘This virgin alone in Ireland’, said Mel, ‘will hold the Episcopal ordination.’ While she was being consecrated a fiery column ascended from her head." http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201002/index.html

2) The Leabhar Breac (early 15th century) says:
"It came to pass then, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, that the form of ordaining a bishop was read over Brigit. MacCaille said that ‘The order of a bishop should not be (conferred) on a woman.’ Dixit Bishop Mél: ‘No power have I in this matter, inasmuch as by God hath been given unto her this honour beyond every woman.’ Hence, it is that the men of Ireland give the honour of bishop to Brigit's successor." http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201010/index.html


Thank you for those quotes, dear ozgeorge.

The oldest Life of Saint Brigid is Saint Broccan Cloen's which is circa mid-7th century.  There are also Saint Kilian's, Cogitosus, Saint Donatus, Saint Alerian the Wise, Saint Colgan of Kildare.

I'll see if I can access these.

But you have not addressed the question of whether you see the two quoted texts as sufficient proof that the Holy Spirit has consecrated a woman bishop.  If this female consecration was indeed by the will of God, then our bishops may have been incorrect at the Councils where they disallowed it.  ???
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 10:00:06 AM by Irish Hermit »

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1429 on: August 12, 2009, 10:01:13 AM »
there are five other Lives of Saint Brigid and some older than the one you are quoting.  Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?
Are there five other lives of St. Brigid?
Lets have a look at the ones we know of on this thread so far.

1) The Bethu Brigte (9th century) says:
"The bishop being intoxicated with the grace of God there did not recognise what he was reciting from his book, for he consecrated Brigit with the orders of a bishop. ‘This virgin alone in Ireland’, said Mel, ‘will hold the Episcopal ordination.’ While she was being consecrated a fiery column ascended from her head." http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201002/index.html

2) The Leabhar Breac (early 15th century) says:
"It came to pass then, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, that the form of ordaining a bishop was read over Brigit. MacCaille said that ‘The order of a bishop should not be (conferred) on a woman.’ Dixit Bishop Mél: ‘No power have I in this matter, inasmuch as by God hath been given unto her this honour beyond every woman.’ Hence, it is that the men of Ireland give the honour of bishop to Brigit's successor." http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201010/index.html


Thank you for those quotes, dear ozgeorge.

The oldest Life of Saint Brigid is Saint Broccan Cloen's which is circa mid-7th century.  There are also Saint Kilian's, Saint Donatus, Saint Alerian the Wise, Saint Colgan of Kildare.

I'll see if I can access these.

But you have not addressed the question of whether you see the two quoted texts as sufficient proof that the Holy Spirit has consecrated a woman bishop.  If this female consecration was indeed by the will of God, then our bishops may have been incorrect at the Councils where they disallowed it.  ???
The only thing that we know so far given the texts above is that it was believed in Ireland from at least the 9th Century and until at least the 15th Century that St. Brigid was consecrated a Bishop by the Grace of God through Bishop Mel.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1430 on: August 12, 2009, 10:16:46 AM »
there are five other Lives of Saint Brigid and some older than the one you are quoting.  Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?
Are there five other lives of St. Brigid?
Lets have a look at the ones we know of on this thread so far.

1) The Bethu Brigte (9th century) says:
"The bishop being intoxicated with the grace of God there did not recognise what he was reciting from his book, for he consecrated Brigit with the orders of a bishop. ‘This virgin alone in Ireland’, said Mel, ‘will hold the Episcopal ordination.’ While she was being consecrated a fiery column ascended from her head." http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201002/index.html

2) The Leabhar Breac (early 15th century) says:
"It came to pass then, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, that the form of ordaining a bishop was read over Brigit. MacCaille said that ‘The order of a bishop should not be (conferred) on a woman.’ Dixit Bishop Mél: ‘No power have I in this matter, inasmuch as by God hath been given unto her this honour beyond every woman.’ Hence, it is that the men of Ireland give the honour of bishop to Brigit's successor." http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201010/index.html


Thank you for those quotes, dear ozgeorge.

The oldest Life of Saint Brigid is Saint Broccan Cloen's which is circa mid-7th century.  There are also Saint Kilian's, Saint Donatus, Saint Alerian the Wise, Saint Colgan of Kildare.

I'll see if I can access these.

But you have not addressed the question of whether you see the two quoted texts as sufficient proof that the Holy Spirit has consecrated a woman bishop.  If this female consecration was indeed by the will of God, then our bishops may have been incorrect at the Councils where they disallowed it.  ???
The only thing that we know so far given the texts above is that it was believed in Ireland from at least the 9th Century and until at least the 15th Century that St. Brigid was consecrated a Bishop by the Grace of God through Bishop Mel.

Dear George,

You are jumping to conclusions.  The Leabhar Breac (The Specked Book) is NOT a unity.  Instead it is a compilation of many items, some in Irish and some in Latin, starting from the 8th century.   So the contention that Brigid was made bishop is not from the 15th century but is from earlier centuries going back 800 years.  Is there a date assigned to what you quoted?

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1431 on: August 12, 2009, 10:23:48 AM »
there are five other Lives of Saint Brigid and some older than the one you are quoting.  Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?Such a momentous day when the Christians of Ireland acquired a female bishop would find a mention in them all, don't you think?
Are there five other lives of St. Brigid?
Lets have a look at the ones we know of on this thread so far.

1) The Bethu Brigte (9th century) says:
"The bishop being intoxicated with the grace of God there did not recognise what he was reciting from his book, for he consecrated Brigit with the orders of a bishop. ‘This virgin alone in Ireland’, said Mel, ‘will hold the Episcopal ordination.’ While she was being consecrated a fiery column ascended from her head." http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201002/index.html

2) The Leabhar Breac (early 15th century) says:
"It came to pass then, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, that the form of ordaining a bishop was read over Brigit. MacCaille said that ‘The order of a bishop should not be (conferred) on a woman.’ Dixit Bishop Mél: ‘No power have I in this matter, inasmuch as by God hath been given unto her this honour beyond every woman.’ Hence, it is that the men of Ireland give the honour of bishop to Brigit's successor." http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T201010/index.html


Thank you for those quotes, dear ozgeorge.

The oldest Life of Saint Brigid is Saint Broccan Cloen's which is circa mid-7th century.  There are also Saint Kilian's, Saint Donatus, Saint Alerian the Wise, Saint Colgan of Kildare.

I'll see if I can access these.

But you have not addressed the question of whether you see the two quoted texts as sufficient proof that the Holy Spirit has consecrated a woman bishop.  If this female consecration was indeed by the will of God, then our bishops may have been incorrect at the Councils where they disallowed it.  ???
The only thing that we know so far given the texts above is that it was believed in Ireland from at least the 9th Century and until at least the 15th Century that St. Brigid was consecrated a Bishop by the Grace of God through Bishop Mel.

Dear George,

You are jumping to conclusions.  The Leabhar Breac (The Specked Book) is NOT a unity.  Instead it is a compilation of many items, some in Irish and some in Latin, starting from the 8th century.   So the contention that Brigid was made bishop is not from the 15th century but is from earlier centuries going back 800 years.  Is there a date assigned to what you quoted?
I'm not sure I understand how the Leabhar Breac is not a unity simply because it is a compilation. The Leabhar Breac is a unity in that it is one manuscript written probably between 1408 and 1411.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1432 on: August 12, 2009, 10:38:55 AM »
I think I get what IrishHermit is saying.  While the manuscript may have been written between 1408 and 1411, it is possible (even probably) that the particular story of St. Brigid's episcopal consecration is merely a direct (or as direct as is possible considering human error) copy of an older manuscript for posterity's sake.  Is there a date attached to the particular story?
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1433 on: August 12, 2009, 10:49:38 AM »
I think I get what IrishHermit is saying.  While the manuscript may have been written between 1408 and 1411, it is possible (even probably) that the particular story of St. Brigid's episcopal consecration is merely a direct (or as direct as is possible considering human error) copy of an older manuscript for posterity's sake.  Is there a date attached to the particular story?

The Leabhar Breac is as you say a compilation of many items and manuscripts starting from the 8th century.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1434 on: August 12, 2009, 10:52:10 AM »
Is there a date attached to the particular story?
There is no date for each part of the manuscript, only a dating of when it was compiled.
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1435 on: August 13, 2009, 08:18:23 AM »
You have to admit though, if the Orthodox Church approved of women Priestesses (even if it was a Council), then thousands (if not millions) would leave the Church. That is, unless the Council was declared as null & void, and not ecumenical.
The people after all, rioted in the streets of the Byzantine Empire after the Council of Florence. All the Bishops there (save for one) agreed to reunion with Rome. But this reunion didn't happen since it certainly wasn't conciliar.

I would say that women ordination to the Priesthood in Orthodoxy will NEVER happen, because it will take the force of a Council as well as having to go through the people & the monastics to be approved.

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1436 on: August 31, 2009, 01:26:54 PM »
Btw, his Most divine Beatitude the Pope (the real one) has spoken (unlike the Archbishop of Cantebury et alia):
Quote
The opinions of a Hierarch of the Patriarchate of Alexandria and All Africa regarding the ordination of women reflect his personal views and not the official position of the ancient Church of Alexandria, which is expressed solely by His Beatitude the Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa in Synod only.
http://www.greekorthodox-alexandria.org/index.php?module=news&action=details&id=356&PHPSESSID=iikd1pu0amqab58un187oco057
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1437 on: September 01, 2009, 02:11:38 PM »
[I'm wondering about this quote from Matushka Mathews-Green. Does anyone know what this idea that the Priest represents God the Father at the altar is this based on? Why would the Father have his back to us facing the same direction we are and supplicating the Trinity and offering the Gifts of the Holy Table to God "for all and in all"? I've never understood how anyone can think that the Priest "represents Christ"  or "represents the Father" when He is offering Christ to the Father. If the Priest represents anyone, it is we, the Church, that he represents.

I also find the concept of the priest as an image of God the Father something I have not encountered before.

The image of the priest as "alter Christus" is not out of place within Orthodoxy and we do not have to shy away from it because the Catholics have emphasized it so very heavily.  But, as George says, he also represents the people of God.

"For Irenaeus the bishop is alter apostolus wheras for Ignatius the bishop is alter Christus. For Irenaeus, the bishop was someone who expressed the apostolicity of the Church whereas for Ignatius the bishop was someone who took care of his flock as a living icon of Christ. There is no contradiction in the two terms but simply a difference of emphasis; the terms are complementary."

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http://orthodoxchristian.info/pages/St_Irenaeus.htm

I think she is probably referring to the fact that St. Ignatius stated that the Bishop holds the place of God the Father, the presbytery the Apostolic College, and the Deacon the place of Christ.   

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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1438 on: September 01, 2009, 02:46:17 PM »
Quote
He (Metropolitan Kallistos) see's no reason against their ordination to the deaconate. Women historically were ordained as deacons, but never as Priests.
Very correct. Deacons are at the first rank of priesthood. And the "rebel nun" St. Maria Skobtsova of Ravensbruck/Paris was to be sth like this, but it was realised that her being the type if nun she chose, she was already very close to this kind of priesthood.

I'm not sure if the Bishop refers to this, though. :)
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Re: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1439 on: September 01, 2009, 03:09:06 PM »
I think she is probably referring to the fact that St. Ignatius stated that the Bishop holds the place of God the Father, the presbytery the Apostolic College, and the Deacon the place of Christ.   

And Deaconesses represent(ed) Holy Spirit.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 03:09:32 PM by mike »
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