OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 02, 2014, 12:35:39 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Ordination of Women in the Orthodox Church  (Read 179948 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,833



« Reply #1305 on: August 07, 2009, 11:19:57 PM »

Yes, I know.  But you imply that they can loose it out of whole cloth. 
Actually, no. It is an example of binding, not loosing. The Church decided to forbid Bishops to be married even though Scripture permitted them to marry, therefore, in this instance, the Church bound something on Earth and thereby bound it in Heaven. A restriction (binding) was imposed by the Church which overuled the Apostolic permission (loosing) of St. Paul.

At the risk of sounding like a one-note Johnny, I have to comment on this issue of married bishops. I see no formal evidence that the Church has forbidden Bishops to be married. The last canon on the subject that I have been able to find was Canon 12 of the Council at Trullo. This canon merely required married bishops and their wives to live separately. The canon stated that it did not mean to overrule the Holy Scriptures and earlier canons but to reduce scandal amongst the people, which the Council felt was more important at that point in time.

In any case, today we do have Bishops who are widowed priests. The job description by Apostle Paul specified the overseers (bishops and presbyters) to be the husband of one wife. Thus, widowed priests who were elevated to the episcopate become/remain widowed and the husband of one wife.

It is conjecture on my part but I think that married episcopacy, except for the small minority of widowed priests, died out gradually from natural causes. These causes included the growth in monasteries and monastics (who often had better education than mere priests); the gnawing knowledge that the Trullan canon was condemned by the Lord (what God has joined let no man put asunder); the compromise of the clergy who lived in the world under the Turkish and even Christian Empires (with the comparative higher fidelity to Holy Tradition by the monastics); and plain inertia.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #1306 on: August 07, 2009, 11:25:09 PM »

Yes, I know.  But you imply that they can loose it out of whole cloth. 
Actually, no. It is an example of binding, not loosing. The Church decided to forbid Bishops to be married even though Scripture permitted them to marry, therefore, in this instance, the Church bound something on Earth and thereby bound it in Heaven. A restriction (binding) was imposed by the Church which overuled the Apostolic permission (loosing) of St. Paul.

No, it was a loosening in that the canon moved a boundary marker the Fathers had set up.  There had been attempts numerous times to impose clerical celebacy (which finally "succeeded" in the West), and the Church had rebuffed such efforts, St. Paphnudi reminding the Church was bound by the precedence of the Fathers, who had not laid the burden of celebacy on the clergy.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #1307 on: August 08, 2009, 01:07:25 PM »

Whole article in English:
Quote
ATHENS, Greece – The views expressed by Metropolitan Seraphim of Johannesburg and Praetoria in a recently published article has brought the issue of the ordination of women to the forefront of the Orthodox Church. Metropolitan Seraphim, a Bishop of the Patriarchate of Alexandria, recently wrote that this hot topic affecting the whole of Christianity should be discussed at a Pan-Orthodox Council, when members of Orthodox Churches from all over the world will participate, so that the Orthodox Church can adopt an official position on the ordination of women, as other churches and many Protestant denominations have already done.

In the article, which first appeared in the website “Romfea,” and was reprinted in the Greek daily newspaper “To Vima”, the Cyprus-born prelate posed the question “what are the theological reasons that prohibit us from supporting the ordination of women?”

Metropolitan Seraphim also conveyed the willingness expressed by the leadership of the Patriarchate of Alexandria to discuss the revival of the ancient tradition of “deaconess,” after pointing out that “in Orthodox missionary work, where adult women are receive catechism and being baptized, the pastoral need for the service of deaconesses has begun to reappear.” The Metropolitan was referring to a position in the lower clergy that peaked during the early Christian centuries, when women stood apart from men in the church balcony or on one side of the church, and priests could not approach them.

Meanwhile, in a related development, Bishops from the Church of Greece received an encyclical from the Standing Holy Synod which advises them that the registration of girls at ecclesiastical schools of secondary education is prohibited. The decision has already been met with opposition. Below is an excerpt of the two-page document, which is signed by Archbishop Ieronymos of Athens, the Bishops sitting on the Standing Holy Synod, and the Chief Secretary.

“Having taken account of the current state of affairs in the area of ecclesiastical education....and in order to uphold the nature of these educational institutions – Ecclesiastical Junior High and High Schools – as productive schools of the Orthodox Church in Greece, the Holy Synod has decided that the registration of female students in Ecclesiastical Junior High and High Schools runs contrary to their productive nature, on the one hand, and will cause such problems as to constitute their operation problematic, on the other hand. Thus, it has been led to the unanimous decision of prohibiting the registration of female students in ecclesiastical institutions of secondary education.”

A loophole for the entry and registration of girls into ecclesiastical junior high and high schools existed by virtue of an encyclical issued by the Ministry of Education, which was sent to all schools in June, but the immediate response of the Holy Synod led the Ministry of Education to back down on the issue.

On Friday July 24, the Ministry of Education issued a statement clarifying that girls wishing to register in secondary ecclesiastical schools were first required to obtain permission from the local Bishop in whose Metropolis the ecclesiastical junior high or high schools are operating. The decision issued by the Holy Synod and the Ministry of Education's reversal of position were met with surprise and have already created problems. In fact, it is considered a foregone conclusion that the Director of the Ecclesiastical Junior High and High School of Northern Greece – who has already received applications from five female students – will reject them, because neither he nor the local Bishop wish to break ranks with the Holy Synod.

The education issue has prompted discussion on the role of women in the church. The matter of the ordination of women has arisen, which will stir controversy in the Orthodox Church just as it has in other denominations.

Like the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church has stated that the issue of the ordination of women is non-existent. On the other hand, the Anglican Church has proceeded with the ordination of women to the priesthood and has even elevated some of them to the rank of bishop – a decision which has created a rift within the Anglican Church.

As is noted in his article, when Metropolitan Seraphim was still a deacon in 1989, he attended the Council of York, where the Anglican Church first decided to allow the ordination of women. At the time, the Orthodox Church had sent him there as an observer, since he was serving as a deacon in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Great Britain – an eparchy of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. There, the Metropolitan had an opportunity to follow the entire discussion as it took place.

Metropolitan Seraphim declares that the issue ought to be on the agenda of the Great and Holy Council, the Pan-Orthodox gathering which potentially can address all the major issues affecting the Church that have accumulated since the Great Schism of 1054. “My goal is for there to be a true and genuine dialogue prior to the Council, which will make all the final decisions,” Metropolitan Seraphim said.

source


I would not have started the topic if I had known how a discussion would emerge Wink
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 01:10:28 PM by mike » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1308 on: August 09, 2009, 06:06:36 AM »

Quote
Metropolitan Seraphim declares that the issue ought to be on the agenda of the Great and Holy Council

I agree, and this is what I'm getting at. Discussion is important no matter which way the Church decides.
If women dogmatically can never and will never be ordained to the Priesthood in the Church, then it is best if the Great and Holy Council were to decree this, define it, and close the issue once and for all.
Not having the issue of Women's Ordination on the agenda for the Great and Holy Council can only be interpreted in one way: that the topic is a theological can of worms which, once opened will inevitably lead to women's ordination to the Priesthood.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #1309 on: August 09, 2009, 09:03:34 AM »

I disagree with your "can only be interpreted in one way" summation. It is not up to your normal standards of logic.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1310 on: August 09, 2009, 09:21:23 AM »

Quote
Metropolitan Seraphim declares that the issue ought to be on the agenda of the Great and Holy Council

I agree, and this is what I'm getting at. Discussion is important no matter which way the Church decides.
If women dogmatically can never and will never be ordained to the Priesthood in the Church, then it is best if the Great and Holy Council were to decree this, define it, and close the issue once and for all.
Not having the issue of Women's Ordination on the agenda for the Great and Holy Council can only be interpreted in one way: that the topic is a theological can of worms which, once opened will inevitably lead to women's ordination to the Priesthood.


It worries me, George that these initial stages of the debate are disturbingly similar to the initial stages which commenced the process towards ordination of Anglican women. New Zealand ordained 5 female priests is 1977.  I am not sure if those were the first such ordinations but they were very early in the piece.  I had a message from the Serbian parish priest who was intending to chrismate two Kiwi-Serbian girls who had been baptized Anglican because of their Anglican father.  He (the Serbian priest) said that when he saw the ordination of the women he decided he was unable to accept Anglican baptism and so the next day, to the horror of the Anglican grandparents and the delight of the Serbs, he dipped the girls in a tub of water!! 

PS: I want to add that I have known some excellent Anglican women priests -excellent with pastoral work and as spiritual mentors. 
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1311 on: August 10, 2009, 04:50:38 AM »

It worries me, George that these initial stages of the debate are disturbingly similar to the initial stages which commenced the process towards ordination of Anglican women.
I acknowledge that people are afraid, but what are they afraid of? Are they afraid that if the issue is examined and discussed, then women will be ordained as Priests? There are three other possibilities besides that. The possible outcomes are of examining the issue are:

1) The Church decides and decrees that women cannot be ordained to the Priesthood for dogmatic reasons.

2) The Church decides there is no dogmatic reason which prevents women from being ordained to the Priesthood, but a Canon is introduced to say they cannot be ordained, then that Canon stays in force unless and until a Synod of equal authority overturns it.

3) This Council decides it cannot make a decision yet on the issue and that a subsequent Council needs to revisit it. In the Meantime, women cannot be ordained to the Priesthood.

4) The Church decides women can now be ordained to the Priesthood.

Someone is going to be unhappy no matter what is decided, but since when has resolving a question in an Ecumenical Council not caused a split from the Church? Cheesy
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 04:50:59 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #1312 on: August 10, 2009, 06:17:33 AM »

It worries me, George that these initial stages of the debate are disturbingly similar to the initial stages which commenced the process towards ordination of Anglican women.
I acknowledge that people are afraid, but what are they afraid of?

Throwing a lot of time, energy and resources we can't afford in an unnecessary and in many way contrieved debate, not to mention stirring up a lot of ill will for no reason.

Quote
Are they afraid that if the issue is examined and discussed, then women will be ordained as Priests? There are three other possibilities besides that. The possible outcomes are of examining the issue are:

1) The Church decides and decrees that women cannot be ordained to the Priesthood for dogmatic reasons.

2) The Church decides there is no dogmatic reason which prevents women from being ordained to the Priesthood, but a Canon is introduced to say they cannot be ordained, then that Canon stays in force unless and until a Synod of equal authority overturns it.

3) This Council decides it cannot make a decision yet on the issue and that a subsequent Council needs to revisit it. In the Meantime, women cannot be ordained to the Priesthood.

4) The Church decides women can now be ordained to the Priesthood.

Someone is going to be unhappy no matter what is decided, but since when has resolving a question in an Ecumenical Council not caused a split from the Church? Cheesy

The circumstances of calling ALL the Ecumenical Councils were forced on the Church.  She didn't go around looking for trouble.

While we are at it, why not decide if we can ordain Mr. Spock?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1313 on: August 10, 2009, 06:32:14 AM »

While we are at it, why not decide if we can ordain Mr. Spock?
Well, one reason not to consider the question of ordaining Mr. Spock at the Holy Synod is that he is a fictitious character in a television series and movies.
Women are not fictitious characters. They are actual human beings like us and members of the Body of Christ.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1314 on: August 10, 2009, 07:03:30 AM »

Throwing a lot of time, energy and resources we can't afford in an unnecessary and in many way contrived debate, not to mention stirring up a lot of ill will for no reason.


This is a little tangential to the discussion but it does touch on suitable topics for the Great and Holy Council.  It appalled me a few years back to discover on a major Orthodox list that there are convert clergy (and this cuts across jurisdictional lines) who deny that the soul and divinity of Christ are present in the Holy Mysteries.    They claim they are being scriptural since the Lord declares that the Mysteries are only His Body and Blood.  I think that it is a result of residual anti-Catholicism among convert clergy from certain backgrounds.    This is so very heretical (and I am using that word in its full meaning) that it merits being on the agenda of the Council.  The holy Orthodox Church has not made any conciliar proclamations about the nature of the Eucharist.  Maybe this would be an excellent time to do so and cut this heresy off at the knees.

(back to the topic under discussion)
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,077


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #1315 on: August 10, 2009, 07:50:37 AM »

While we are at it, why not decide if we can ordain Mr. Spock?
Well, one reason not to consider the question of ordaining Mr. Spock at the Holy Synod is that he is a fictitious character in a television series and movies.
Women are not fictitious characters. They are actual human beings like us and members of the Body of Christ.

Maybe he meant Dr Spock?
http://www.drspock.com/about/drbenjaminspock/0,1781,,00.html
Wink
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1316 on: August 10, 2009, 07:52:29 AM »

While we are at it, why not decide if we can ordain Mr. Spock?
Well, one reason not to consider the question of ordaining Mr. Spock at the Holy Synod is that he is a fictitious character in a television series and movies.
Women are not fictitious characters. They are actual human beings like us and members of the Body of Christ.

Maybe he meant Dr Spock?
http://www.drspock.com/about/drbenjaminspock/0,1781,,00.html
Wink
Can we ordain dead people now (as long as they're not women)? Cheesy
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 07:53:37 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #1317 on: August 10, 2009, 09:54:34 AM »

While we are at it, why not decide if we can ordain Mr. Spock?
Well, one reason not to consider the question of ordaining Mr. Spock at the Holy Synod is that he is a fictitious character in a television series and movies.
Women are not fictitious characters. They are actual human beings like us and members of the Body of Christ.

Women are real.  It is the question of ordaining them which is fictitious.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1318 on: August 10, 2009, 09:56:49 AM »

While we are at it, why not decide if we can ordain Mr. Spock?
Well, one reason not to consider the question of ordaining Mr. Spock at the Holy Synod is that he is a fictitious character in a television series and movies.
Women are not fictitious characters. They are actual human beings like us and members of the Body of Christ.

Women are real.  It is the question of ordaining them which is fictitious.

Are Deaconesses fictitious?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,349


metron ariston


« Reply #1319 on: August 10, 2009, 10:03:58 AM »

Not having the issue of Women's Ordination on the agenda for the Great and Holy Council can only be interpreted in one way

Correct. That such was a total non-issue in November of 1976, when the first Pre-Conciliar Consultation met in Switzerland, almost two years before the Lambeth Conference accepted female ordination.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #1320 on: August 10, 2009, 10:28:48 AM »

While we are at it, why not decide if we can ordain Mr. Spock?
Well, one reason not to consider the question of ordaining Mr. Spock at the Holy Synod is that he is a fictitious character in a television series and movies.
Women are not fictitious characters. They are actual human beings like us and members of the Body of Christ.

Women are real.  It is the question of ordaining them which is fictitious.

Are Deaconesses fictitious?
No, but women bishops are.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1321 on: August 10, 2009, 10:37:04 AM »

Not having the issue of Women's Ordination on the agenda for the Great and Holy Council can only be interpreted in one way

Correct. That such was a total non-issue in November of 1976, when the first Pre-Conciliar Consultation met in Switzerland, almost two years before the Lambeth Conference accepted female ordination.

I didn't realise the Lambeth Conference accepted women's ordination that early. Do you know what might have happened to change things in the space of less than 2 years?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #1322 on: August 10, 2009, 10:42:11 AM »

Not having the issue of Women's Ordination on the agenda for the Great and Holy Council can only be interpreted in one way

Correct. That such was a total non-issue in November of 1976, when the first Pre-Conciliar Consultation met in Switzerland, almost two years before the Lambeth Conference accepted female ordination.

I didn't realise the Lambeth Conference accepted women's ordination that early. Do you know what might have happened to change things in the space of less than 2 years?

Idle curiosity, academic pinheads, and committees. And cultural fashion.

Btw
Quote
Florence Li Tim-Oi (Chinese: 李添嬡 Cantonese Lei Tim'oi, Mandarin Li Tian'ai; 5 May 1907 in Hong Kong – 26 February 1992 in Toronto) was the first woman to be ordained to the priesthood in the Anglican Communion. Already appointed as a deacon to serve in the colony of Macau at the Macau Protestant Chapel, she was ordained priest on 25 January 1944, by the Bishop of Hong Kong, in response to the crisis among Anglican Christians in China caused by the Japanese invasion. Since it was to be thirty years before any Anglican church regularised the ordination of women, her ordination was controversial and she resigned her licence (though not her priestly orders) after the end of the war. When Hong Kong ordained two further women priests in 1971, she was officially recognised as a priest in the diocese. She was appointed an honorary (nonstipendiary) assistant priest in Toronto in 1983.

In 2003, the Episcopal Church USA fixed January 24 as her feast day in Lesser Feasts and Fasts, based on the eve of the anniversary of her ordination.[1] In 2007, the entire Anglican Communion celebrated the Centennial of her birth.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Tim-Oi
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 10:45:52 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1323 on: August 10, 2009, 10:52:37 AM »

Idle curiosity, academic pinheads, and committees. And cultural fashion.
^Do you have any facts to back that up ialmisry? Because if it's just what you feel- I couldn't care less.

Do you honestly care what I "feel" about any issue? Do you think that I'm the slightest bit interested in what anyone "feels" about an issue?  What I'm interested in is the issue. I'm sensitive to people's feelings, for sure, and I try not to hurt people's feelings, but if examining issues hurts people's feelings then I think those feelings need to be challenged.

There is no assurance of "safety" in not asking questions and examining the answers- even if we don't like them. But statements such as "I think..." or "In my opinion..." or "I agree...." or "I disagree...." do not constitute answers- they are just bloody opinion, and everyone has one- including me. So what? Where have we got to if a thread consists of:
"I agree"
"I disagree"
"I agree"
"So do I"
"I disagree"

Who cares?


« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 10:58:13 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1324 on: August 10, 2009, 11:09:20 AM »

Idle curiosity, academic pinheads, and committees. And cultural fashion.
^Do you have any facts to back that up ialmisry? Because if it's just what you feel- I couldn't care less.

It is near enough as good enough as what the ever-memorable Fr Alexander Schmeman wrote to the Anglicans in his ever-memorable letter "Concerning Women's Ordination -a letter to an episcopal friend

Here is his letter in message 45

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,22594.msg344530.html#msg344530
Logged
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,349


metron ariston


« Reply #1325 on: August 10, 2009, 11:11:35 AM »

I didn't realise the Lambeth Conference accepted women's ordination that early. Do you know what might have happened to change things in the space of less than 2 years?

Not sure what you mean. FYI, the Lambeth Conference only happens every 10 years or so.

The first Pre-Conciliar Consultation in 1976 was a Pan-Orthodox event, during which the agenda was set for discussion leading up to a Great and Holy Council. Most pressing issues included the Paschalion, the Calendar in general, fasting, the diaspora, ecumenism, etc. That agenda is still the guiding force behind preparations.

As for the Anglicans: They had passed several resolutions relating to female ordination at the previous Lambeth Conference in 1968. Typical Anglican tact, in which they stated there were no good theological reasons to bar the practice -- but we're not endorsing the practice, just recommending more discussion -- and, oh, by the way, if any province goes ahead and ordains anyway, please wait for approval from X Committee or something. As far as I know, nothing much happened outside of academic debate, until 1974, when some females were irregularly ordained in the U.S, then in 1975 the Canadians made it officially ok, and, finally, in 1976, the Episcopal Church(USA) followed suit, with a decree that said something like "no one can be denied access" to the three priestly orders.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 11:14:46 AM by pensateomnia » Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1326 on: August 10, 2009, 11:22:13 AM »

Idle curiosity, academic pinheads, and committees. And cultural fashion.
^Do you have any facts to back that up ialmisry? Because if it's just what you feel- I couldn't care less.

Do you honestly care what I "feel" about any issue? Do you think that I'm the slightest bit interested in what anyone "feels" about an issue?  What I'm interested in is the issue. I'm sensitive to people's feelings, for sure, and I try not to hurt people's feelings, but if examining issues hurts people's feelings then I think those feelings need to be challenged.

There is no assurance of "safety" in not asking questions and examining the answers- even if we don't like them. But statements such as "I think..." or "In my opinion..." or "I agree...." or "I disagree...." do not constitute answers- they are just bloody opinion, and everyone has one- including me. So what? Where have we got to if a thread consists of:
"I agree"
"I disagree"
"I agree"
"So do I"
"I disagree"

Who cares?

We have to care because not just the bishops but the laity too have been charged with safeguarding the holy tradition (refer to Saint Maximus the Confessor and the hordes of unwashed monks who would charge out of the deserts to harass the bishops and agitate for right doctrine at Ecumenical Councils.)    It has always been my understanding that the Apostolic period (which is sans female priests) is normative for the Church (or is that another wrong notion I imbibed in my grasshopper days?   laugh)

Sometimes/often the laity do not have the theological background and terminology to expres their faith but they do have the "right feeling" for it and know when bishops are moving out of the tradition on a particular theme and into territory which could shipwreck the ship of the Church.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1327 on: August 10, 2009, 11:31:17 AM »

I didn't realise the Lambeth Conference accepted women's ordination that early. Do you know what might have happened to change things in the space of less than 2 years?

Not sure what you mean. FYI, the Lambeth Conference only happens every 10 years or so.

The first Pre-Conciliar Consultation in 1976 was a Pan-Orthodox event, during which the agenda was set for discussion leading up to a Great and Holy Council. Most pressing issues included the Paschalion, the Calendar in general, fasting, the diaspora, ecumenism, etc. That agenda is still the guiding force behind preparations.

As for the Anglicans: They had passed several resolutions relating to female ordination at the previous Lambeth Conference in 1968. Typical Anglican tact, in which they stated there were no good theological reasons to bar the practice -- but we're not endorsing the practice, just recommending more discussion -- and, oh, by the way, if any province goes ahead and ordains anyway, please wait for approval from X Committee or something. As far as I know, nothing much happened outside of academic debate, until 1974, when some females were irregularly ordained in the U.S, then in 1975 the Canadians made it officially ok, and, finally, in 1976, the Episcopal Church(USA) followed suit, with a decree that said something like "no one can be denied access" to the three priestly orders.

Sorry, I misunderstood you.  I thought the Pre-Concilliar consultation you mentioned was an Anglican preparation for the Lambeth Conference.
So am I right in understanding that the lead up in the case of the Anglican Communion was the Lambeth Conference of 1968 which saw no theological reasons to prevent the Ordination of women to the Priesthood?
Also hat do you mean by the "Typical Anglican Tact?" The fact that the '68 Lambeth Conference came to this conclusion, or the way in which women Priests were ordained (irregularly at first)?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,038



WWW
« Reply #1328 on: August 10, 2009, 11:37:21 AM »


Sometimes/often the laity do not have the theological background and terminology to express their faith but they do have the "right feeling" for it and know when bishops are moving out of the tradition on a particular theme and into territory which could shipwreck the ship of the Church.

Father, you described me perfectly!  I do not have the background needed to support my "views", and yet I feel the need to voice them!

Thanks so much!

 Grin

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1329 on: August 10, 2009, 11:40:02 AM »

I do not have the background needed to support my "views", and yet I feel the need to voice them!

Go ahead! Irish Hermit does it too, its the only way misinformation and falsehood can be spread and the Faith twisted into lies:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg346393.html#msg346393
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 11:40:29 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1330 on: August 10, 2009, 11:47:32 AM »

And I'm still not interested in what anyone feels.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,038



WWW
« Reply #1331 on: August 10, 2009, 11:48:57 AM »


Ease up there, young man.

What's up with the attitude?

This forum is for discussion, right?  Not just discussing YOUR point of view.

dis⋅cus⋅sion
  /dɪˈskʌʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [di-skuhsh-uhn]
–noun
an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate.
Origin:  1300–50; ME < AF < LL discussiōn- (s. of discussiō) inquiry, examination, L: a shaking. See discuss, -ion

   1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
   2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.

There are many threads on this forum where people have discussed and learned from each other.  If there's a "lie" as you say, than it's up to you to post a correction - politely.

This is how we learn, no?

Did you mom put you down every time you voiced something in opposition to her opinions, or when you asked her a silly question?

We are here to learn from each other.

Being mean and insulting, is very ORTHODOX.  Keep it up!

So Christ-like, not!




Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,038



WWW
« Reply #1332 on: August 10, 2009, 11:53:17 AM »

And I'm still not interested in what anyone feels.

I'm sure fewer, and fewer people care about how you feel, too.

If the Church depended on people like you to uphold Her truths, we would have been history long ago!

Temperance.

Be nice.

Explain your point without alienating others.

Christ didn't put down everyone He disagreed with.  On the contrary, He calmly made His point, and thereby, convinced others of His views.

OzGeorge, please don't be offended, by our feelings!

We still love you!
Oops...that's a feeling!
 Wink



Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #1333 on: August 10, 2009, 11:54:23 AM »

Idle curiosity, academic pinheads, and committees. And cultural fashion.
^Do you have any facts to back that up ialmisry? Because if it's just what you feel- I couldn't care less.

I'm cut to the core of my inner being. Roll Eyes

^Do let me know if the above posts haven't satisfied your curiosity.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1334 on: August 10, 2009, 11:56:03 AM »

I do not have the background needed to support my "views", and yet I feel the need to voice them!

Go ahead! Irish Hermit does it too, its the only way misinformation and falsehood can be spread and the Faith twisted into lies:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg346393.html#msg346393


Don't be silly, George.  You insult me. Angry I  fought the good fight against women's ordination 30 years ago when the NZ Anglicans were waltzing with the devil. I devoured as much to and con information as was available, from the Anglicans and the small amount from Meyendorff, Schmemann and Afanassiev.

I received three Anglican priests because of this issue.  I cannot spit on them now by pretending that we all made a great mistake back then and they should have accepted women priests.  Two of them in particular sacrificed social prestige in their communities, quite magnificent vicarages, excellent salaries and excellent medical and retirement plans in order to come into the holy Orthodox Church.   It grieves me to hear that now some Orthodox want us to travel down the same road as the Anglicans. 

I think that the Archbishop of Johannesburg is either a bit of an airhead or simply a nobody who wants his moment of fame.  So he conjures up this non-existent issue for the Orthodox.    Notice how well it has been received on the Orthodox Internet?!  Apart from our forum I don't think it has had a single mention elsewhere.  We are just not interested.
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1335 on: August 10, 2009, 12:02:21 PM »

Ease up there, young man.
Thanks! I turned 43 on Monday!

What's up with the attitude?
What attitude? I simply made it clerar that I couldn't care less about what anyone feels, I'm interested in what they think and why they think it.

This forum is for discussion, right?  Not just discussing YOUR point of view.
Actually, if you notice, I'm not even discussing MY point of view. I'm discussing facts.

dis⋅cus⋅sion
  /dɪˈskʌʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [di-skuhsh-uhn]
–noun
an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., esp. to explore solutions; informal debate.
Origin:  1300–50; ME < AF < LL discussiōn- (s. of discussiō) inquiry, examination, L: a shaking. See discuss, -ion

   1. Consideration of a subject by a group; an earnest conversation.
   2. A formal discourse on a topic; an exposition.
Where's the part that defines discussion as sharing our feelings?


If there's a "lie" as you say, than it's up to you to post a correction - politely.
I did, four times with two independent citations, but Irish Hermit persists- without providing evidence....Kind of like you here.

This is how we learn, no?
We learn from realities and facts, not feelings.

Did you mom put you down every time you voiced something in opposition to her opinions, or when you asked her a silly question?
No, she, my father and my teachers taught me HOW to think, not WHAT to think.

We are here to learn from each other.
Please explain how "I feel such and such but I can't explain or support it or give a reason why" teaches me anything except that the person can't think.

Being mean and insulting, is very ORTHODOX.  Keep it up! So Christ-like, not!
Is lying in the face of clear evidence and facts Christ-like in your estimation?

I'm still not interested in what you feel.






« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 12:09:37 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,038



WWW
« Reply #1336 on: August 10, 2009, 12:08:06 PM »


I'm still not interested in what you feel.


I've already figured that out.

So....let me put it another way.

I THINK ordaining women priests would be a big mistake. 

Is that better?  You did say you only care about what we THINK, not FEEL.


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1337 on: August 10, 2009, 12:13:00 PM »

I THINK ordaining women priests would be a big mistake. 
Thank you, now perhaps you can say something about why you think this and how you came to this conclusion, then we might have a discussion.
But if you only "think" this because you "feel" it, then the discussion is doomed.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
pensateomnia
Bibliophylax
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Posts: 2,349


metron ariston


« Reply #1338 on: August 10, 2009, 12:13:08 PM »

Sorry, I misunderstood you.  I thought the Pre-Concilliar consultation you mentioned was an Anglican preparation for the Lambeth Conference.

Ah. I see. Only reason I mentioned Lambeth 1978 is b/c that was the first major, "official", pro-female priesthood/episcopacy decision by any Christian Church claiming to be apostolic. Thus, it's hardly surprising that the agenda for the proposed Pan-Orthodox Great and Holy Synod doesn't include the issue, since its agenda was prepared in 1976 (and, privately, before that).

So am I right in understanding that the lead up in the case of the Anglican Communion was the Lambeth Conference of 1968 which saw no theological reasons to prevent the Ordination of women to the Priesthood?

As far as I understand it, yes, but I have radically limited knowledge of the matter, having only read secondary sources. One caveat: I have read that the resolution concluded the theological arguments (both pro and con) were "inconclusive." If so, that's rather different than saying there is no reason to prevent it (as I originally wrote).

Also hat do you mean by the "Typical Anglican Tact?" The fact that the '68 Lambeth Conference came to this conclusion, or the way in which women Priests were ordained (irregularly at first)?

I actually meant the way in which the resolutions were passed. First, saying it is "inconclusive." Then saying we should all talk about it some more. And, finally, stipulating an official means for individual provinces to go ahead and act unilaterally, even though the matter has not yet been agreed upon and the evidence is inconclusive. I dunno. That kind of approach seems very Anglican to me. It's a strange polity and praxis, from an Orthodox point of view.
Logged

But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1339 on: August 10, 2009, 12:17:43 PM »

I did, four times with two independent citations, but Irish Hermit persists- without providing evidence....Kind of like you here.


Huh?  Evidence against women priests?  Look around you, George, how many do you see in your Greek churches on a Sunday? Ask your parents how many Greek women priests they have known?  Ask your grandparents.

Then take the question back onto the early centuries of the Church.  Most Orthodox are unaware that this agitated the Church from time to time and the Church has already responded and formulated canons against women priests. The canons have not been abrogated.  They have not "worn out" over the years.  Some of the fathers weighed in on the arguments and wrote against them.  Start with the early Montanist problem and how the Church dealt with it.    The Church has already spoken.  This is not a problem we are encountering for the first time in the 21st century.
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,038



WWW
« Reply #1340 on: August 10, 2009, 12:18:59 PM »

I THINK ordaining women priests would be a big mistake. 
Thank you, now perhaps you can say something about why you think this and how you came to this conclusion, then we might have a discussion.
But if you only "think" this because you "feel" it, then the discussion is doomed.

I THINK I already stated my THOUGHTS previously....and I stand by them.


« Reply #48 on: August 05, 2009, 09:44:20 AM »


While there are women who are considered "Equal to the Apostles" - none of the original twelve were women.

I hold the myrrhbearers and all the female saints, and especially the Mother of God in the highest esteem and respect. I love them all, and do not diminish their lives or the role they have played in the Church.  However, that does not change the fact that of the disciples that Christ called (the original 12), none were women.  Or am I reading a different Gospel than the rest of you?

As I recall the woman, such as Mary Magdalene were not "called" by Christ.  They joined Him on their own.  He did not go out in search of them, or call them by name.
While Christ did not rebuff them, for He came to teach and save everyone, He did not include them in the "inner" circle.

I fully agree that women have a significant role to play within Orthodoxy.  However, priesthood is NOT one of those roles.  To satisfy one's own ambitions and "calling" while in the process rocking the Church and Faith is unacceptable.  If a women has a "calling" than fill it some other way!

Female deacons were necessary in the old days.  The priests (men, by the way) were not permitted to touch women while ministering to them, nor to visit a sick woman alone.  This is where the deaconess came in to play.  She would, on behalf of the male priest, minister to women.  She would visit the infirm, etc.

I respect the Church too much to just sit by and have someone change it because they feel the "need" to serve!  Please!  That's just pride on the woman's part.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it!

Matthew 10:1
And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Matthew 11:1
And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

Matthew 26:20
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

# Mark 6:7
And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

I could go on...however, I am trying to make the point that the TWELVE were not women, even though there were women disciples and there were and are women "Equal to the Apostles".


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #1341 on: August 10, 2009, 12:23:17 PM »

Sorry, I misunderstood you.  I thought the Pre-Concilliar consultation you mentioned was an Anglican preparation for the Lambeth Conference.

Ah. I see. Only reason I mentioned Lambeth 1978 is b/c that was the first major, "official", pro-female priesthood/episcopacy decision by any Christian Church claiming to be apostolic.

Actually, no the Church of Sweden did that.  Why it took the opposition so long to organize themselves (they did so only after the Norwegians did, creating the Nordic Catholic Church, which had tried to be received by Orthodoxy, but was told they weren't Greek Angry).

Quote
Missionsprovinsen (the Mission Province) is a second, independent ecclesiastical province within the Church of Sweden and somewhat also inside the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland, founded by members of the "orthodox opposition" to the ordination of women to the priesthood and episcopate. The Mission Province was founded on 6 September 2003, following the establishment of the Nordic Catholic Church in Norway.

On 5 February 2005 The Most Reverend Walter Obare Omwanza, presiding bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Kenya, assisted by bishops Leonid Zviki from Belarus, David Tswaedi from South Africa, Børre Knudsen and Ulf Asp from Norway, consecrated Arne Olsson in apostolic succession as the Ordinary for the Mission Province.

In April 2006 Bishop Arne Olsson consecrated pastors Lars Artman and Göran Beijer as other bishops for the Mission Province.

The alternative hierarchy of the Mission province ordains candidates for the priesthood who are not in favour of the ordination of women and who are therefore not accepted for ordination in the national Churches of Sweden or Finland.

Bishops of the Church of Sweden do not acknowledge the Mission Province as a part of the Church of Sweden and Bishop Arne Olsson was defrocked soon after his episcopal ordination as were Lars Artman and Göran Beijer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionsprovinsen

Why those who fled Anglicanism only after women were being ordained, long after other nonsense (denial of the Resurrection, etc. ) was going on also perplexes me.


Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1342 on: August 10, 2009, 12:25:42 PM »

I could go on...however, I am trying to make the point that the TWELVE were not women, even though there were women disciples and there were and are women "Equal to the Apostles".
Were the Apostles Bishops or Priests or Deacons in your understanding of this? If Bishops, does that still exclude women from the Priesthood (the second rank of the Clergy)? Especially since it didn't exclude them from the third rank (the Diaconate). In other words, does the evidence that none of the Apostles were women mean that women cannot be Bishops, but may be Priests and Deacons?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 12:32:37 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1343 on: August 10, 2009, 12:32:11 PM »

As far as I understand it, yes, but I have radically limited knowledge of the matter, having only read secondary sources. One caveat: I have read that the resolution concluded the theological arguments (both pro and con) were "inconclusive." If so, that's rather different than saying there is no reason to prevent it (as I originally wrote).
Thanks pensateomnia! When Ebor gets back I'll have to ask if there is somewhere I can find the documents of the '68 Lambert Conference.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,865



« Reply #1344 on: August 10, 2009, 12:35:26 PM »

As far as I understand it, yes, but I have radically limited knowledge of the matter, having only read secondary sources. One caveat: I have read that the resolution concluded the theological arguments (both pro and con) were "inconclusive." If so, that's rather different than saying there is no reason to prevent it (as I originally wrote).
Thanks pensateomnia! When Ebor gets back I'll have to ask if there is somewhere I can find the documents of the '68 Lambert Conference.
Knock yourself out:
http://www.lambethconference.org/resolutions/1968/
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1345 on: August 10, 2009, 12:36:45 PM »

I could go on...however, I am trying to make the point that the TWELVE were not women, even though there were women disciples and there were and are women "Equal to the Apostles".
Were the Apostle Bishops or Priests or Deacons in your understanding of this? If Bishops, does that still exclude women from the Priesthood (the second rank of the Clergy)? Especially since it didn't exclude them from the third rank (the Diaconate). In other words, does the evidence that none of the Apostles were women mean that women cannot be Bishops, but may be Priests and Deacons?

We look forward to the day when Her All-Holiness the Matriarch of Constantinople ascends the Great Throne.  Of course by that time the marriage of the hierarchy may have been reinstated and we look forward to a Patriarch and a Matriarch co-presiding in the Great Church.   If ecumenism reaches a successful conclusion we could even see the union of the Churches cemented by the marriage of the Pope of Rome to the Matriarch of Constantinople. That's not at all farfetched if we think logically about what you are proposing.
Logged
Michael L
Priest Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 240



« Reply #1346 on: August 10, 2009, 12:41:05 PM »


This is how we learn, no?
We learn from realities and facts, not feelings.


Are feelings not reality? Do you not learn valuable lessons when you feel pain/happiness (such as: burning yourself, ending a relationship, receiving praise, loving someone)? Experience from our feelings teach a lot and are so real and so important. Some people me consider what they feel with regard to the morals (including church teaching) a conscience. Perhaps you could cultivate this yourself, and you might develop more tact with dealing with people on this forum.

As for me I often THINK based upon how I FEEL. So if you don't not care how I FEEL then you don not care what I THINK.

BTW, 

Quote
"Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Our Lord has asked us to above all - love- is love not an emotion or FEELING? Perhaps you still don't care!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 12:42:00 PM by Sinner Servant » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1347 on: August 10, 2009, 12:42:48 PM »

As far as I understand it, yes, but I have radically limited knowledge of the matter, having only read secondary sources. One caveat: I have read that the resolution concluded the theological arguments (both pro and con) were "inconclusive." If so, that's rather different than saying there is no reason to prevent it (as I originally wrote).
Thanks pensateomnia! When Ebor gets back I'll have to ask if there is somewhere I can find the documents of the '68 Lambert Conference.
Knock yourself out:
http://www.lambethconference.org/resolutions/1968/
Thanks, I'd already found that. What I actuallyt mean is any documents about the pro and con arguments.

We look forward to the day when Her All-Holiness the Matriarch of Constantinople ascends the Great Throne.
And I look forward to the day that you provide the evidence for your claims requested of you in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg346420/topicseen.html#msg346420
But I doubt either is going to happen, so you can keep your emotional reactions to yourself.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #1348 on: August 10, 2009, 12:44:31 PM »

Our Lord has asked us to above all - love- is love not an emotion or FEELING?
Nope. Absolutely not. If love was a feeling then:
1) God would not be dispassionate.
2) God would be just a feeling since God is Love.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 12:46:32 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #1349 on: August 10, 2009, 12:50:28 PM »

[And I look forward to the day that you provide the evidence for your claims requested of you in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,2233.msg346420/topicseen.html#msg346420

That's twice you have brought another unrelated therad into this one.  What's up?

Quote
But I doubt either is going to happen, so you can keep your emotional reactions to yourself.

George, try and think logically about your proposals.  Your proposals will indeed lead to women bishops and women Patriarchs. i.e., Matriarchs.   Your proposal could well see the marriages of Matriarchs to Patriarchs, even to the Pope of Rome when we all finally return to the married episcopate.  I think you are reacting only with your feelings.  But some clarity of thought will show you where your proposals inevitably lead the Church.
Logged
Tags: ordination of women priestess Ordination priesthood priests deaconesses deacons cheval mort=dead horse laos laity 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.18 seconds with 72 queries.