Author Topic: The Messiah and Resurrection  (Read 442 times)

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Offline andrewlya

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The Messiah and Resurrection
« on: March 04, 2015, 05:53:19 PM »
Hi all, is there any prophesy in the Old Testament that God's promised Messiah will be resurrected after He had sacrificed Himself for us on the Cross?

Thanks a lot,

God bless.
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2015, 05:57:33 PM »
I think generally the allusions to the Messiah as eternal, such as an eternal king, or a heavenly mediator (Job), suffice. However, there is Psalm sixteen: "My flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2015, 05:59:20 PM »
Historically, I see the Jews as having been behind the Greeks in affirming the potential of man to live immortally. However, that's a different subject and I may be wrong about it.
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2015, 06:21:15 PM »
The reason I am asking is because I have recently watched a movie called The Acts of the Apostles in which it was showing Saint Paul preaching to the Pharisees reconciling prophesies of the promised Messiah in the Torah to Jesus and His resurrection.

However, many Pharisees would flip out at a thought that the Messiah had resurrected...So, I wondered is there no mention of the resurrection of the Messiah in the Old Testament? If there is not, then it could be understandable why the Pharisees found it hard to accept the resurrection part of the Messiah's mission. 
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2015, 07:00:53 PM »
I'm confused. Are you asking for what the Pharisee party taught about Messiah and resurrection? Because that seems quite a different topic.
In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 06:02:32 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2015, 06:08:08 PM »
Quote from: Ezekiel 37-NIV
The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

I think Daniel has a similar quote.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2015, 06:08:49 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2015, 06:17:16 PM »
Quote from: Ezekiel 37-NIV
The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

I think Daniel has a similar quote.
Interesting, it talks about the people of Israel to be resurrected for the Judgement Day? How about the Gentiles?
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2015, 06:23:31 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Why is it so hard for Protestant denominations to accept various truths which their denominations happen not to stand for? This is the nature of partisan fallen man. There's no such thing as forcing another to agree with one by "facts" alone.

However, your query's a little odd in that we know the Pharisee party were proponents of the resurrection of the body and could even become violent about it (as in the Jewish assembly over St. Paul recorded in the Acts). Are you sure a TV movie depicting Pharisees "flipping out" at a fictional presentation is your best source of Christian history?
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Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2015, 08:58:46 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Are you sure you're not conflating the idea of the Messiah's death with the idea of the Messiah's resurrection? 
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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2015, 09:09:02 PM »
Might the ones that flipped out at the idea of the resurrection be Sadducees? They were against the idea of resurrection. The Pharisees were not. I know I've seen a movie about Acts where Paul attempts to use this division among parties to his advantage when facing the Sanhedrin.
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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2015, 09:15:09 PM »
Might the ones that flipped out at the idea of the resurrection be Sadducees? They were against the idea of resurrection. The Pharisees were not. I know I've seen a movie about Acts where Paul attempts to use this division among parties to his advantage when facing the Sanhedrin.

That's not just artistic licence, there is actually a passage about this in Acts.  I love it.  How wily he was. 
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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2015, 09:27:47 PM »
Indeed. God knew what He was doing picking St. Paul.
Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.

Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths.

Offline Michael1950

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2015, 05:22:44 AM »
Porter ODoran is correct. Pslam 16 is a very worthy example.

With my imperfect understanding in mind -- How can death be overcome except by death and resurrection? All must die and all must be resurrected.

The Jewish Pharisees and Saduccees committed Deicide when they crucified Jesus -- little did their vain minds know that they had fulfilled the mission of the Christ by spilling the blood of the Lamb of God.

Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen. Amen. Amen.

Offline Skydive

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2015, 07:31:14 AM »
Quote from: Ezekiel 37-NIV
The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

I think Daniel has a similar quote.
Interesting, it talks about the people of Israel to be resurrected for the Judgement Day? How about the Gentiles?

For sure the Gentiles will not be resurrected!
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Offline Skydive

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2015, 08:08:05 AM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Nothing in Christianity is explicitly in the Torah... The NT kind of has different points of view.. Some of the Jews in the NT narrative said "the Messiah will last forever".

here are some verses though :

“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, . . . that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve” (1 Cor. 15:2, 3-5).

Isaiah 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

" "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." - Isaiah 25:8

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead" (Isaiah 26:19).

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. (and the continuation..)

Joshua 1:11
"Go through the camp and tell the people, 'Get your provisions ready. Three days from now you will cross the Jordan here to go in and take possession of the land the LORD your God is giving you for your own.'"

Joshua 3:3
giving orders to the people: "When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the Levitical priests carrying it, you are to move out from your positions and follow it.

Joshua 3:2 And it came to pass after three days, that the officers went through the host;

Brenton Septuagint LXX Hosea 6:2 Strong's Numbers Cross ReferencesPost My Notes on Hosea 6:2 Commentary Added Online 6:2 After two days he will heal us: in the third day we shall arise, and live before him, and shall know [him]:

Quote
First is Isaiah 53, that famous text that we so often like to appeal to for the death of Christ. Here we discover that this suffering servant will be crushed for our iniquities (53:5). But Isaiah goes on to say “Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper his hand” (53:10b). Granted, Isaiah does not spell out the specifics of the resurrection, but nonetheless it is inferred. This suffering servant will taste death, a death that is substitutionary in nature, and yet this death is not the final word. God will “prolong his days” and “prosper his hand,” the latter phrase indicating that the servant will be victorious, as a victor who receives his spoils (53:12) and claims his offspring (53:10). While it is true enough that Jacob “sees his children” (29:23) as this servant “sees his seed” (53:10), Jacob does so, as Alec Motyer explains, as a “mere watcher from the sidelines of history.” “Not so the Servant! He who was crushed under the will of the Lord lives as the executor of that will.” And while Sheol has claimed earth’s inhabitants and death has “dethroned them,” with the servant “death ushers him into sovereign dignity and power, with his own hand administering the saving purposes of the Lord, and as victor taking the spoil ([Isa. 53] verse 12).” The resurrection of Christ in the Old Testament Matthew Barrett (Ph.D., The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)
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Offline WPM

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2015, 08:49:08 AM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Nothing in Christianity is explicitly in the Torah... The NT kind of has different points of view.. Some of the Jews in the NT narrative said "the Messiah will last forever".

here are some verses though :

“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, . . . that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve” (1 Cor. 15:2, 3-5).

Isaiah 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

" "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." - Isaiah 25:8

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead" (Isaiah 26:19).

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. (and the continuation..)

Joshua 1:11
"Go through the camp and tell the people, 'Get your provisions ready. Three days from now you will cross the Jordan here to go in and take possession of the land the LORD your God is giving you for your own.'"

Joshua 3:3
giving orders to the people: "When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the Levitical priests carrying it, you are to move out from your positions and follow it.

Joshua 3:2 And it came to pass after three days, that the officers went through the host;

Brenton Septuagint LXX Hosea 6:2 Strong's Numbers Cross ReferencesPost My Notes on Hosea 6:2 Commentary Added Online 6:2 After two days he will heal us: in the third day we shall arise, and live before him, and shall know [him]:

Quote
First is Isaiah 53, that famous text that we so often like to appeal to for the death of Christ. Here we discover that this suffering servant will be crushed for our iniquities (53:5). But Isaiah goes on to say “Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper his hand” (53:10b). Granted, Isaiah does not spell out the specifics of the resurrection, but nonetheless it is inferred. This suffering servant will taste death, a death that is substitutionary in nature, and yet this death is not the final word. God will “prolong his days” and “prosper his hand,” the latter phrase indicating that the servant will be victorious, as a victor who receives his spoils (53:12) and claims his offspring (53:10). While it is true enough that Jacob “sees his children” (29:23) as this servant “sees his seed” (53:10), Jacob does so, as Alec Motyer explains, as a “mere watcher from the sidelines of history.” “Not so the Servant! He who was crushed under the will of the Lord lives as the executor of that will.” And while Sheol has claimed earth’s inhabitants and death has “dethroned them,” with the servant “death ushers him into sovereign dignity and power, with his own hand administering the saving purposes of the Lord, and as victor taking the spoil ([Isa. 53] verse 12).” The resurrection of Christ in the Old Testament Matthew Barrett (Ph.D., The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)


Are these Bible verses accurate? How should they be used ... Are you using the scriptures the correct way? ...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 08:51:05 AM by WPM »

Offline Skydive

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2015, 09:05:14 AM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Nothing in Christianity is explicitly in the Torah... The NT kind of has different points of view.. Some of the Jews in the NT narrative said "the Messiah will last forever".

here are some verses though :

“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, . . . that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve” (1 Cor. 15:2, 3-5).

Isaiah 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

" "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." - Isaiah 25:8

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead" (Isaiah 26:19).

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. (and the continuation..)

Joshua 1:11
"Go through the camp and tell the people, 'Get your provisions ready. Three days from now you will cross the Jordan here to go in and take possession of the land the LORD your God is giving you for your own.'"

Joshua 3:3
giving orders to the people: "When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the Levitical priests carrying it, you are to move out from your positions and follow it.

Joshua 3:2 And it came to pass after three days, that the officers went through the host;

Brenton Septuagint LXX Hosea 6:2 Strong's Numbers Cross ReferencesPost My Notes on Hosea 6:2 Commentary Added Online 6:2 After two days he will heal us: in the third day we shall arise, and live before him, and shall know [him]:

Quote
First is Isaiah 53, that famous text that we so often like to appeal to for the death of Christ. Here we discover that this suffering servant will be crushed for our iniquities (53:5). But Isaiah goes on to say “Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper his hand” (53:10b). Granted, Isaiah does not spell out the specifics of the resurrection, but nonetheless it is inferred. This suffering servant will taste death, a death that is substitutionary in nature, and yet this death is not the final word. God will “prolong his days” and “prosper his hand,” the latter phrase indicating that the servant will be victorious, as a victor who receives his spoils (53:12) and claims his offspring (53:10). While it is true enough that Jacob “sees his children” (29:23) as this servant “sees his seed” (53:10), Jacob does so, as Alec Motyer explains, as a “mere watcher from the sidelines of history.” “Not so the Servant! He who was crushed under the will of the Lord lives as the executor of that will.” And while Sheol has claimed earth’s inhabitants and death has “dethroned them,” with the servant “death ushers him into sovereign dignity and power, with his own hand administering the saving purposes of the Lord, and as victor taking the spoil ([Isa. 53] verse 12).” The resurrection of Christ in the Old Testament Matthew Barrett (Ph.D., The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)


Are these Bible verses accurate? How should they be used ... Are you using the scriptures the correct way? ...

Christians see them as applying to Christ and his resurrection. There might be some differences in translations between the Christian OT and the Jewish Tanakh.

I don't care about the Scriptures so much.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2015, 10:03:01 AM »
Might the ones that flipped out at the idea of the resurrection be Sadducees? They were against the idea of resurrection. The Pharisees were not. I know I've seen a movie about Acts where Paul attempts to use this division among parties to his advantage when facing the Sanhedrin.

I was under the impression that the Sadducees believed in NO afterlife, while the Pharisees did.
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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2015, 11:08:04 AM »
I won't argue the point no afterlife would be inclusive of the idea of being against resurrection.  I hadn't heard the other but I've never made  Sadducees a source of special studies. You may know better.
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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2015, 07:28:44 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Why is it so hard for Protestant denominations to accept various truths which their denominations happen not to stand for? This is the nature of partisan fallen man. There's no such thing as forcing another to agree with one by "facts" alone.

However, your query's a little odd in that we know the Pharisee party were proponents of the resurrection of the body and could even become violent about it (as in the Jewish assembly over St. Paul recorded in the Acts). Are you sure a TV movie depicting Pharisees "flipping out" at a fictional presentation is your best source of Christian history?
This movie was meant to be done as closely to the Acts of the Apostles as possible every scene is cross referenced to a verse of the scripture. This is the link to the movie- it is actually very good IMHO. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZXRN8UnLUE .
I beg you pardon, I think it was the Sadducees who did not accept the resurrection, not the Pharisees.

"There's no such thing as forcing another to agree with one by "facts" alone." I suppose that is how I learn by getting facts or prophesies in the Bible in order to make sense of it.

Thanks for understanding.
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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2015, 07:32:32 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Are you sure you're not conflating the idea of the Messiah's death with the idea of the Messiah's resurrection?
I know there is a prophesy of the suffering of the Messiah but what I am trying to find is the prophesy of His resurrection in the O.T.
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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2015, 07:33:20 PM »
Might the ones that flipped out at the idea of the resurrection be Sadducees? They were against the idea of resurrection. The Pharisees were not. I know I've seen a movie about Acts where Paul attempts to use this division among parties to his advantage when facing the Sanhedrin.
Sorry, it was the Sadducees. My mistake.
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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2015, 07:39:25 PM »
Porter ODoran is correct. Pslam 16 is a very worthy example.

With my imperfect understanding in mind -- How can death be overcome except by death and resurrection? All must die and all must be resurrected.

The Jewish Pharisees and Saduccees committed Deicide when they crucified Jesus -- little did their vain minds know that they had fulfilled the mission of the Christ by spilling the blood of the Lamb of God.

Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen. Amen. Amen.
How Deicide is even possible?

I have always wondered why did the Messiah have to be killed 1st, then resurrected back to life, in order to save the humanity?
Killing is a sin, so by people committing a sin of "Deicide", we have now a new life. I mean we got a new life from a sin committed by others..
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline Michael1950

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2015, 07:47:56 PM »
Porter ODoran is correct. Pslam 16 is a very worthy example.

With my imperfect understanding in mind -- How can death be overcome except by death and resurrection? All must die and all must be resurrected.

The Jewish Pharisees and Saduccees committed Deicide when they crucified Jesus -- little did their vain minds know that they had fulfilled the mission of the Christ by spilling the blood of the Lamb of God.

Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen. Amen. Amen.
How Deicide is even possible?

I have always wondered why did the Messiah have to be killed 1st, then resurrected back to life, in order to save the humanity?
Killing is a sin, so by people committing a sin of "Deicide", we have now a new life. I mean we got a new life from a sin committed by others..
Killing the only begotten Son of the Father is Deicide. How that is possible is a mystery of faith.

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2015, 07:49:50 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Nothing in Christianity is explicitly in the Torah... The NT kind of has different points of view.. Some of the Jews in the NT narrative said "the Messiah will last forever".

here are some verses though :

“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, . . . that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve” (1 Cor. 15:2, 3-5).

Isaiah 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


" "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." - Isaiah 25:8

Yes, this makes sense to me! Thanks a lot!
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2015, 07:51:30 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Nothing in Christianity is explicitly in the Torah... The NT kind of has different points of view.. Some of the Jews in the NT narrative said "the Messiah will last forever".

here are some verses though :

“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, . . . that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve” (1 Cor. 15:2, 3-5).

Isaiah 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

" "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." - Isaiah 25:8

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead" (Isaiah 26:19).

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. (and the continuation..)

Joshua 1:11
"Go through the camp and tell the people, 'Get your provisions ready. Three days from now you will cross the Jordan here to go in and take possession of the land the LORD your God is giving you for your own.'"

Joshua 3:3
giving orders to the people: "When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the Levitical priests carrying it, you are to move out from your positions and follow it.

Joshua 3:2 And it came to pass after three days, that the officers went through the host;

Brenton Septuagint LXX Hosea 6:2 Strong's Numbers Cross ReferencesPost My Notes on Hosea 6:2 Commentary Added Online 6:2 After two days he will heal us: in the third day we shall arise, and live before him, and shall know [him]:

Quote
First is Isaiah 53, that famous text that we so often like to appeal to for the death of Christ. Here we discover that this suffering servant will be crushed for our iniquities (53:5). But Isaiah goes on to say “Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper his hand” (53:10b). Granted, Isaiah does not spell out the specifics of the resurrection, but nonetheless it is inferred. This suffering servant will taste death, a death that is substitutionary in nature, and yet this death is not the final word. God will “prolong his days” and “prosper his hand,” the latter phrase indicating that the servant will be victorious, as a victor who receives his spoils (53:12) and claims his offspring (53:10). While it is true enough that Jacob “sees his children” (29:23) as this servant “sees his seed” (53:10), Jacob does so, as Alec Motyer explains, as a “mere watcher from the sidelines of history.” “Not so the Servant! He who was crushed under the will of the Lord lives as the executor of that will.” And while Sheol has claimed earth’s inhabitants and death has “dethroned them,” with the servant “death ushers him into sovereign dignity and power, with his own hand administering the saving purposes of the Lord, and as victor taking the spoil ([Isa. 53] verse 12).” The resurrection of Christ in the Old Testament Matthew Barrett (Ph.D., The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)


Are these Bible verses accurate? How should they be used ... Are you using the scriptures the correct way? ...

Christians see them as applying to Christ and his resurrection. There might be some differences in translations between the Christian OT and the Jewish Tanakh.

I don't care about the Scriptures so much.
Why would O.T. and Jewish Tanakh be different?
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

Offline andrewlya

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2015, 07:53:16 PM »
Might the ones that flipped out at the idea of the resurrection be Sadducees? They were against the idea of resurrection. The Pharisees were not. I know I've seen a movie about Acts where Paul attempts to use this division among parties to his advantage when facing the Sanhedrin.

I was under the impression that the Sadducees believed in NO afterlife, while the Pharisees did.
That is right.
I believe in one God the Father and His Son the Messiah, the Savior of all people.

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2015, 07:54:23 PM »
Does lost in translation mean anything?

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2015, 08:03:53 PM »
Does lost in translation mean anything?

Were you as uncertain of the meaning of the ending of that film as i was?
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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2015, 07:25:25 AM »
Porter ODoran is correct. Pslam 16 is a very worthy example.

With my imperfect understanding in mind -- How can death be overcome except by death and resurrection? All must die and all must be resurrected.

The Jewish Pharisees and Saduccees committed Deicide when they crucified Jesus -- little did their vain minds know that they had fulfilled the mission of the Christ by spilling the blood of the Lamb of God.

Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen. Amen. Amen.
How Deicide is even possible?

I have always wondered why did the Messiah have to be killed 1st, then resurrected back to life, in order to save the humanity?
Killing is a sin, so by people committing a sin of "Deicide", we have now a new life. I mean we got a new life from a sin committed by others..
Killing the only begotten Son of the Father is Deicide. How that is possible is a mystery of faith.

As far as I understand no one did kill Christ but He offered Himself.

The way it was explained to me was: "He commanded His spirit, and when they did want to break His legs (to haste His death) he was already death. This is corresponding with OT prophecies."
Philippians 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"
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Offline Michael1950

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2015, 09:17:22 AM »
Porter ODoran is correct. Pslam 16 is a very worthy example.

With my imperfect understanding in mind -- How can death be overcome except by death and resurrection? All must die and all must be resurrected.

The Jewish Pharisees and Saduccees committed Deicide when they crucified Jesus -- little did their vain minds know that they had fulfilled the mission of the Christ by spilling the blood of the Lamb of God.

Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen. Amen. Amen.
How Deicide is even possible?

I have always wondered why did the Messiah have to be killed 1st, then resurrected back to life, in order to save the humanity?
Killing is a sin, so by people committing a sin of "Deicide", we have now a new life. I mean we got a new life from a sin committed by others..
Killing the only begotten Son of the Father is Deicide. How that is possible is a mystery of faith.

As far as I understand no one did kill Christ but He offered Himself.

The way it was explained to me was: "He commanded His spirit, and when they did want to break His legs (to haste His death) he was already death. This is corresponding with OT prophecies."
Yes, Joha, you are correct - the Lamb of God did offer himself up. It did take the work of human hands and minds to carry this act to it's conclusion. JMHO.
Also, do you, or any others who may peruse this ever thought of this -- Scripture tells us that Christ fell three times carrying the Cross to Calvary. One fall for each member of the Holy Trinity. That thought has been in my heart for many years.

Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen. Amen. Amen.

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2015, 12:17:52 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Nothing in Christianity is explicitly in the Torah... The NT kind of has different points of view.. Some of the Jews in the NT narrative said "the Messiah will last forever".

here are some verses though :

“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, . . . that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve” (1 Cor. 15:2, 3-5).

Isaiah 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

" "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." - Isaiah 25:8

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead" (Isaiah 26:19).

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. (and the continuation..)

Joshua 1:11
"Go through the camp and tell the people, 'Get your provisions ready. Three days from now you will cross the Jordan here to go in and take possession of the land the LORD your God is giving you for your own.'"

Joshua 3:3
giving orders to the people: "When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the Levitical priests carrying it, you are to move out from your positions and follow it.

Joshua 3:2 And it came to pass after three days, that the officers went through the host;

Brenton Septuagint LXX Hosea 6:2 Strong's Numbers Cross ReferencesPost My Notes on Hosea 6:2 Commentary Added Online 6:2 After two days he will heal us: in the third day we shall arise, and live before him, and shall know [him]:

Quote
First is Isaiah 53, that famous text that we so often like to appeal to for the death of Christ. Here we discover that this suffering servant will be crushed for our iniquities (53:5). But Isaiah goes on to say “Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper his hand” (53:10b). Granted, Isaiah does not spell out the specifics of the resurrection, but nonetheless it is inferred. This suffering servant will taste death, a death that is substitutionary in nature, and yet this death is not the final word. God will “prolong his days” and “prosper his hand,” the latter phrase indicating that the servant will be victorious, as a victor who receives his spoils (53:12) and claims his offspring (53:10). While it is true enough that Jacob “sees his children” (29:23) as this servant “sees his seed” (53:10), Jacob does so, as Alec Motyer explains, as a “mere watcher from the sidelines of history.” “Not so the Servant! He who was crushed under the will of the Lord lives as the executor of that will.” And while Sheol has claimed earth’s inhabitants and death has “dethroned them,” with the servant “death ushers him into sovereign dignity and power, with his own hand administering the saving purposes of the Lord, and as victor taking the spoil ([Isa. 53] verse 12).” The resurrection of Christ in the Old Testament Matthew Barrett (Ph.D., The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)


Are these Bible verses accurate? How should they be used ... Are you using the scriptures the correct way? ...

Christians see them as applying to Christ and his resurrection. There might be some differences in translations between the Christian OT and the Jewish Tanakh.

I don't care about the Scriptures so much.
Why would O.T. and Jewish Tanakh be different?

There are different translations and different versions as the Septuagint differs from the Masoretic text.  Some versions of the OT are based strictly on the Septuagint, others on the MT and others on both..
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

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Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline Skydive

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2015, 12:19:09 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Nothing in Christianity is explicitly in the Torah... The NT kind of has different points of view.. Some of the Jews in the NT narrative said "the Messiah will last forever".

here are some verses though :

“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, . . . that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve” (1 Cor. 15:2, 3-5).

Isaiah 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


" "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." - Isaiah 25:8

Yes, this makes sense to me! Thanks a lot!

Kiss my hand!
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2015, 06:25:01 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Nothing in Christianity is explicitly in the Torah... The NT kind of has different points of view.. Some of the Jews in the NT narrative said "the Messiah will last forever".

here are some verses though :

“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, . . . that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve” (1 Cor. 15:2, 3-5).

Isaiah 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

" "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." - Isaiah 25:8

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead" (Isaiah 26:19).

Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. (and the continuation..)

Joshua 1:11
"Go through the camp and tell the people, 'Get your provisions ready. Three days from now you will cross the Jordan here to go in and take possession of the land the LORD your God is giving you for your own.'"

Joshua 3:3
giving orders to the people: "When you see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the Levitical priests carrying it, you are to move out from your positions and follow it.

Joshua 3:2 And it came to pass after three days, that the officers went through the host;

Brenton Septuagint LXX Hosea 6:2 Strong's Numbers Cross ReferencesPost My Notes on Hosea 6:2 Commentary Added Online 6:2 After two days he will heal us: in the third day we shall arise, and live before him, and shall know [him]:

Quote
First is Isaiah 53, that famous text that we so often like to appeal to for the death of Christ. Here we discover that this suffering servant will be crushed for our iniquities (53:5). But Isaiah goes on to say “Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper his hand” (53:10b). Granted, Isaiah does not spell out the specifics of the resurrection, but nonetheless it is inferred. This suffering servant will taste death, a death that is substitutionary in nature, and yet this death is not the final word. God will “prolong his days” and “prosper his hand,” the latter phrase indicating that the servant will be victorious, as a victor who receives his spoils (53:12) and claims his offspring (53:10). While it is true enough that Jacob “sees his children” (29:23) as this servant “sees his seed” (53:10), Jacob does so, as Alec Motyer explains, as a “mere watcher from the sidelines of history.” “Not so the Servant! He who was crushed under the will of the Lord lives as the executor of that will.” And while Sheol has claimed earth’s inhabitants and death has “dethroned them,” with the servant “death ushers him into sovereign dignity and power, with his own hand administering the saving purposes of the Lord, and as victor taking the spoil ([Isa. 53] verse 12).” The resurrection of Christ in the Old Testament Matthew Barrett (Ph.D., The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary)


Are these Bible verses accurate? How should they be used ... Are you using the scriptures the correct way? ...

Christians see them as applying to Christ and his resurrection. There might be some differences in translations between the Christian OT and the Jewish Tanakh.

I don't care about the Scriptures so much.
Why would O.T. and Jewish Tanakh be different?

There are different translations and different versions as the Septuagint differs from the Masoretic text.  Some versions of the OT are based strictly on the Septuagint, others on the MT and others on both..
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: The Messiah and Resurrection
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2015, 06:26:19 PM »
I am asking why Pharisees were so against the fact that the Messiah could be resurrected? If the prophesy of Messiah's resurrection is explicitly in Torah, then why was it so hard for them to accept it?Unless, the Resurrection of the Christ is contrary to what the O.T. prophesies about the Christ?

Nothing in Christianity is explicitly in the Torah... The NT kind of has different points of view.. Some of the Jews in the NT narrative said "the Messiah will last forever".

here are some verses though :

“Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, . . . that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve” (1 Cor. 15:2, 3-5).

Isaiah 53:10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


" "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." - Isaiah 25:8

Yes, this makes sense to me! Thanks a lot!

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