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« on: April 20, 2006, 08:01:03 PM »

Is the Roman Catholic Church in China still "Catholic". The church still follows all the catholic teachings. Priests are properly ordained. However they are not in 'communion' with the Papacy insofar as the communist government has imposed bans on links with the Papacy.

The RCC believes that one has to be in 'communion' with the 'universal' church.
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2006, 08:07:11 PM »

If you're referring to the "Catholic Church" of China, no they are not in communion with Rome and have been declared schismatic.  From what I can gather, they're similar to the Living Church that was previously present in the Soviet Union.  However, for some of the liberal ideas they propose they still use the Tridentine Mass (or a version of it).  Go figure.
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2006, 08:51:27 PM »

Pope Benedict is crazy for declaring them schismatic, maybe he should try being a bishop under an oppresive government and then will see why they have to do what they do.  Besides, they seem to hold to RCC teachings better than Benedict himself, as they seem more traditional.

This is the exact problem with Catholicism.  They see being in communion more important than keeping Catholicism alive in an oppressive area.  It's almost as if they would rather have no Church in China than have a schismatic one.
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2006, 09:13:30 PM »

Actually it wasn't Pope Benedict XVI.  It was Pope Pius XII in 1957.  This was after they declared independence from the Vatican.  

I hate to quote from Wikipedia, but it seems more up to day and less biased:

CPCA - under pressure of the Communist government - had to declare rejection of papal authority and non-acceptance of formulations of Catholic teaching and instructions issued by the Holy See after 1949. Thus it could not recognize the dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary (1950) by Pope Pius XII, nor the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) neither did it accept the 1969-1970 revision of the rite of Mass. As a result, for over forty years, all masses conducted by the CPA were according to the Tridentine rite. Only in the early 1990's did the CPCA reform its eucharistic liturgy to a modern form closely adhering to the one in general use in the Catholic Church (Novus Ordo Missae).

he setting up of CPCA in 1957 brought about a severe division from the Holy See. However, despite the difficulties that have confronted China's Catholics over the last sixty years, the Vatican has never declared the Chinese Catholics attending CPCA church services to be schismatic, despite calls to do so by organizations outside of China[2]. The separated group was generally considered as not heretical and as conserving valid Holy Orders, passed on, within a Christian community, by episcopal successors of bishops who themselves had been validly ordained before the emergence of the CPCA. Consequently, the other sacraments also that require a priest as minister (in particular the Eucharist) are also considered valid by the Roman Catholic Church and Catholic theology.

------------------------------
From my understanding many bishops were asked, but the Communists were only able to get one to do.  Also there are several parallel Catholic jurisdictions in China.  One being the communist while the other main one is the Vatican sponsered.
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2006, 09:29:21 PM »

Thanks Smiley.

My apologies to Pope Benedict, but I will say, many theology teachers at my school seem to think they are schismatic in China.  If nothing else, Benedict hasn't done a good enough job at coming out and saying that they aren't schismatic.

Too bad they went and adopted the liturgical reform Sad.
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2006, 10:33:32 PM »

Actually it wasn't Pope Benedict XVI.  It was Pope Pius XII in 1957.  This was after they declared independence from the Vatican. ÂÂ

I hate to quote from Wikipedia, but it seems more up to day and less biased:

CPCA - under pressure of the Communist government - had to declare rejection of papal authority and non-acceptance of formulations of Catholic teaching and instructions issued by the Holy See after 1949. Thus it could not recognize the dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary (1950) by Pope Pius XII, nor the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) neither did it accept the 1969-1970 revision of the rite of Mass. As a result, for over forty years, all masses conducted by the CPA were according to the Tridentine rite. Only in the early 1990's did the CPCA reform its eucharistic liturgy to a modern form closely adhering to the one in general use in the Catholic Church (Novus Ordo Missae).

he setting up of CPCA in 1957 brought about a severe division from the Holy See. However, despite the difficulties that have confronted China's Catholics over the last sixty years, the Vatican has never declared the Chinese Catholics attending CPCA church services to be schismatic, despite calls to do so by organizations outside of China[2]. The separated group was generally considered as not heretical and as conserving valid Holy Orders, passed on, within a Christian community, by episcopal successors of bishops who themselves had been validly ordained before the emergence of the CPCA. Consequently, the other sacraments also that require a priest as minister (in particular the Eucharist) are also considered valid by the Roman Catholic Church and Catholic theology.

------------------------------
From my understanding many bishops were asked, but the Communists were only able to get one to do.  Also there are several parallel Catholic jurisdictions in China.  One being the communist while the other main one is the Vatican sponsered.
I didn't know that they had separated themselves, even if under duress. I think that this might mean that they aren't "Catholic" in the sense that RCC are... like "Old Catholics" who separated themselves
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2006, 10:56:09 PM »

I don't follow, could you explain please?  
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« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2006, 06:49:13 AM »

I don't follow, could you explain please? ÂÂ
Who are you asking?
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2006, 02:37:20 PM »

The Church in China is officially split bewteen the underground Church which recognizes the Pope and is persecuted and the government sponsored Patriotic Catholic Association, which technically does not recognize the Pope and has its bishops appointed by the government.  The problem now is most bishops of the Patriotic Association, around 75%, recognize the Pope and asked his recognition of their appointments, which most if not all have been granted.  So while, officially divided the Catholic Church is widley one in spirit and faith, with very few failing to recognize the Holy Father.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2006, 06:17:45 PM »

Who are you asking?
Nevermind.  Your syntax threw me.  I'm following your statement now.

Deacon Lance,
Thanks for that info.  I was unaware of that.  Is the Pope recognizing them and their appointments.  Also, are the Chinese Bishops in the Patriotic Association allowed to marry?
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2006, 08:54:38 PM »

The Church in China is officially split bewteen the underground Church which recognizes the Pope and is persecuted and the government sponsored Patriotic Catholic Association, which technically does not recognize the Pope and has its bishops appointed by the government.  The problem now is most bishops of the Patriotic Association, around 75%, recognize the Pope and asked his recognition of their appointments, which most if not all have been granted.  So while, officially divided the Catholic Church is widley one in spirit and faith, with very few failing to recognize the Holy Father.

Fr. Deacon Lance
So are they still Catholic, if they're not in communion?
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2006, 09:35:39 AM »

To answer both your questions:

Those that ask for recognition and Communion, which are the majority, have been given it.  And no, the priests and bishops are celibate.

They are Catholic as they are in Communion with the pope while being nominally in the Patriotic Association.  
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« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2006, 07:54:44 AM »

To answer both your questions:

Those that ask for recognition and Communion, which are the majority, have been given it.  And no, the priests and bishops are celibate.

They are Catholic as they are in Communion with the pope while being nominally in the Patriotic Association. ÂÂ

Thanks for the answer.
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« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2006, 04:33:34 PM »

The Catholic Church in mainland communist China is viewed and considered by Rome as "one" Church, although she is divided into 2 groups: the officially-recognized "Chinese Patriotic Association" and those in the "underground."

Those in the "underground" number around 12 million and 4 million belong to the CPA. In addition, there are about 400,000 Catholics in Hongkong, under the pastoral guidance of the newly-elevated Cardinal Zen.

The underground Catholic Church continues to be severely persecuted and her bishops and priests have been in and out of prison continually. Rome, however, considers the Catholic Church in China in its entirety and many, if not most of, those "loyal" to the government under the auspices of the "Chinese Patriotic Association" profess secretly their fealty to the Pope.

Unfortunately, the 4 bishops (1 underground and 3 CPA affiliates) invited by Pope Benedict XVI to attend and participate in the last World Synod of Bishops on the Eucharist were not allowed by the Chinese government to travel to Rome. In contrast, about 2 dozens native Chinese seminarians, both underground and CPA affiliated, previously were able to exit China and stopped by Rome to have an audience with the Pope twice before going on to participate in the 2005 World Youth Day in Cologne, Germany.

The recent ordination of the 3 bishops in the CPA was proposed by the Chinese government and approved by Rome, bypassing the "official" Church! It used to be that bishops were consecrated with the recommendation of the CPA and the approval of the Chinese government. Nowadays, it is "negotiated" between Rome and Beijing, to the chagrin of the "officials" of the "Chinese Patriotic Association."

The recent funeral of an underground bishop in Hubei was authorized by the Chinese government (not by the CPA) to be concelebrated by "official" and "underground" Bishops and priests!

As Fr. Deacon Lance said above, most of the Bishops with the so-called "Chinese Patriotic Association" have secretly pledged their loyalty and allegiance to Rome.
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« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2006, 05:27:14 AM »

To answer both your questions:

Those that ask for recognition and Communion, which are the majority, have been given it.  And no, the priests and bishops are celibate.

They are Catholic as they are in Communion with the pope while being nominally in the Patriotic Association. ÂÂ
As a spin-off from this, I was wondering about the church in India (credited to being founded St. Thomas). When the Portugese arrived in India they declared these Christians Catholic and forced them into uniformity.

I was wondering though if they ceased to be Catholic by virtue of being isolated for so many years, because Catholic membership involves communion with the Pope.
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« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2006, 04:05:43 PM »

Originally, the "Thomas Christians" of India were grouped into a metropolitanate of the Assyrian Church of the East.

Today, there are approximately 8 million descendants of the "original" Thomas Christians surviving but in 5 independent and separate Churches. Some may have joined the Latin Church, which has about 12 million faithful:

Ancient Churches of the East:

(1) Assyrian Church of the East (remnant of the original Thomas Christians)

Oriental Orthodox:

(2) Syrian Orthodox Church;
(3) Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church

Oriental Catholic:

(4) Syro-Malabar Catholic Church; and
(5) Syro-Malankara Catholic Chruch.

The largest among them are the Syro-Malabar Catholics with about 4 million adherents followed by the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church with about 2.5 million faithful.

Within each of these 2 Churches, there is a distinct ethnic community known as the “Southists,” or “Knanaya.” According to tradition, their origins can be traced to a group of 72 Jewish Christian families who immigrated to India from Mesopotamia in the year 345 A.D. and now number about 300,000.

Protestant:

There are two other (relatively) small churches in Kerala that originated in the Malankara Orthodox community: both protestants (Anglican-leaning):

(6) The Mar Thoma Syrian Church of Malabar; and
(7) The Malabar Independent Syrian Church of Thozhiyoor.

Recapitulating, the numbers as of end of 2004 (as estimated by Fr. Roberson of CNEWA and by other religious demographers) are:

Indian Oriental Orthodox: 3,715,000

Thomas Christians still under ACE: 15,000
Syrian Orthodox Church: 1,200,000 (+500,000 in Syria)
Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church: 2,500,000

Indian Oriental Catholics: 4,405,000

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church: 4,000,000
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church: 405,000

Indian "Protestants": 710,000

Mar Thoma Syrian Church of Malabar: 700,000
Malabar Independent Syrian Church of Thozhiyoor: 10,000

Indian Latin Rite Catholics: 12,000,000

If one adds the 500,000 non-Indian (i.e., Syrian or Arabic) faithful of the Syrian Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox in India would total about 4,215,000 and become as large as the Oriental Catholics at 4,415,000.

However, if one adds back the 2 Mar Thoma "Protestants" to the Malankara Orthodox, then the Oriental Orthodox in India would total 4,925,000 or ~5 million, now slightly larger than the Oriental Catholics.

The Orientals (Orthodox and Catholic), are concentrated in Southern India, in the State of Kerala, while faithful of the Latin Rite Church are dispersed throughout India.

A caveat: Catholics comprise merely 1.6% (Christians: 2%) of India's total population of 1+ billion while Hindus number between 800 to 900 million! (Did you know that there are more Muslims than Christians in India? There are approximately 135 million Indian Muslims!)

Let's pray for our Indian brothers and sisters for the difficult job ahead!
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