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Author Topic: Global warming is definitely happening: no more debate!  (Read 4443 times) Average Rating: 0
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Pravoslavbob
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« on: April 20, 2006, 05:05:44 PM »

Some of us had a little discussion about this back in 2004:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=4518.msg59118#msg59118


Well, now there's even more consensus that global warming is a fact, and that it is accelerating rapidly, much more rapidly than was previously believed in some circles:


http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,20060403,00.html

Interestingly enough, there's an article in this issue that describes how even evangelical Christians believe that global warming is a great threat, and that President Bush is totally on the wrong page vis a vis these beliefs.  I think it's well worth looking at.  The whole thing really should concern us all greatly.

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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2006, 05:18:39 PM »

Read the article when I was back in school (it's funny, how our British Deacon friend - username Red Deacon - a) gets TIME for free, and b) seems to get it before anyone else we know does); they did a good job with the scientific data (often these articles are bogged down too much with anecdotal evidence, which this one had plenty of, but not so much to kill it) supporting the position that no one should debate Global Warming.

I found especially interesting their theory that global warming will cause a cooldown for the British Isles; the influx of colder ice-cap water into the oceans will destroy the warm Gulf Stream, that helps keep the Isles (same latitude as Alaska) quite inhabitable.
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2006, 05:26:32 PM »

Quote
Global warming is definitely happening: no more debate!

I think that such an absolute sounding statement is a bit sensationalistic, considering that there is indeed a debate, and it will continue into the forseeable future. What you are saying might be true, but you are doing a disservice to your cause by trying to sound so self-assured; it just makes me think of all the wacky claims from the 70's about running out of fossil fuels, an impending ice age, etc. Tone it down a bit, you have no need to match Mr. Limbaugh's rhetorical flair! Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2006, 05:30:13 PM »

Have you read the articles?  You might wish to do so before you make any more claims about my "sensationalistic" approach.   Cool

One of the articles in this issue of "Time" addresses the very thing that you mention, and that is that some of the American public perceives that there is a debate, but that really, on many fronts, this is not so.

In any event, I want people to look at this post.  I know that global warming is not on top of everyone's agenda, but I really think this issue should concern everyone.  I apologize if you think I am coming across as being crass: how do you think I should have presented the post in a way that would catch people's eye without appearing to be "sensationalistic"?
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2006, 05:40:42 PM »

.... they did a good job with the scientific data (often these articles are bogged down too much with anecdotal evidence, which this one had plenty of, but not so much to kill it) supporting the position that no one should debate Global Warming.

Yes indeed, I was impressed by this too.

Quote
I found especially interesting their theory that global warming will cause a cooldown for the British Isles; the influx of colder ice-cap water into the oceans will destroy the warm Gulf Stream, that helps keep the Isles (same latitude as Alaska) quite inhabitable.

Very interesting.  (Or alarming, depending on your perspective.  Wink )
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2006, 05:43:00 PM »

Perhaps I reacted the way I did because I just heard a meterologist from Accuweather on the radio maybe two days ago saying the exact opposite, so it just seems like conflicting reports as to the certainty that it is happening (and that we are doing it). I haven't read the articles, though I will do so sometime this weekend Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2006, 05:52:22 PM »

I am convinced that Global Warming is occuring, what I am not convinced about is that the cause is man made, yes there are good arguments for it, but they don't address the possibility that it may just be a natural cycle. I see the Earth going from Ice Ages to Overheating Thousands of Times over the the Hundreds of Millions of Years...maybe global warming isn't all that bad of a thing, I mean we just had a mini Ice Age about 500 years ago, perhaps we're just finally comming out of that. But, in all fairness, I'm a person who is not bothered by the destruction of the enviroment because I believe it allows us to slowly decrease our dependence on our enviroment while increasing our dependence on Technology...necessity is the mother of invention...thus helping us out in the long run.
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2006, 06:47:05 PM »

I'm more concerned with the fact that the moon is gradually moving away from the Earth.  But I don't guess there is anything that can fix that, besides God.  I think it is just proof that we weren't meant to be here forever.
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2006, 07:04:25 PM »

I am convinced that Global Warming is occuring, what I am not convinced about is that the cause is man made, yes there are good arguments for it, but they don't address the possibility that it may just be a natural cycle.

I would say that I am not convinced as to the degree of which that the cause is man made.  Is it 1% or 90%?
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2006, 08:03:29 PM »

I'd also agree that Global Warming is happening, but I'm suspect of how much of this is really due to human influence.  In additon, I'm one to take many of the sensationalist reports with a grain of thought.  There seems to be little middle ground in this theory.  Also, FYI, it would also seem that Mars is going through a global warming too.  Must be all those darn cars and fossil fuel emissions. Wink
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2006, 08:17:39 PM »

For the thermostat in your oven or refrigerator to work, the temperature must be making a detectable change. One possibility is that the Earth has it's own thermostat (possibly contibuted to by the Thermohaline Circulation) which "kicks in" when the temperature gets too low or too high, and remember, we are talking about a global temperature difference which is not even 1 degree celsius yet by most measurements. What we are experiencing may simply be a natural phenomenon.
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2006, 09:54:04 PM »

For the thermostat in your oven or refrigerator to work, the temperature must be making a detectable change. One possibility is that the Earth has it's own thermostat (possibly contibuted to by the Thermohaline Circulation) which "kicks in" when the temperature gets too low or too high, and remember, we are talking about a global temperature difference which is not even 1 degree celsius yet by most measurements. What we are experiencing may simply be a natural phenomenon.


The prevailing presumption is that if we are solely responsible for the climate changes that occur from time to time immemorial is to be presumptuous.  There are as many if not more scientist that question just how much human inhabitation actually affect the worlds climate over a millennium.   If you believe the Greenies and that if we all recluse to caves and abandon modern appliances and motivations we will somehow save the earth.  Well, while being admirable this course may have little or not effect on the earth as a whole.  The earth in spite of us will go through continual renewal and will continue maybe after we are all gone.

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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2006, 10:46:28 PM »

One of the ideas put forth in the article is that, it is possible, the Earth is going through a cyclic change in temperature that is minimally affected by Greenhouse gasses.

One thing that the article didn't touch upon is a point a biologist friend of mine made 2 years ago in a discussion at school (our lounge, we call it the Ecumenical Synod chamber - how passe?), that the US probably removes more Greenhouse gasses than it emits, a) because we still have a lot of forest, and b) (the point that was unknown to me) an acre of dense suburban lawn actually removes more CO2 from the atmosphere than an acre of rainforest, because it has more surface area (think fractals, people).  It was this second point that caught my attention then, and stirrs up the question now every time when I get into a gobal warming discussion: we always speak about how much we put into the environment, without ever talking about how much the Earth removes from the environment.
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2006, 11:45:42 AM »

Just to complicate things further, here's an article I remember reading back in January. Perhaps tree-planting activities have been harming the environment!

Plants revealed as methane source

By Tim Hirsch
BBC News environment correspondent  
 
Scientists in Germany have discovered that ordinary plants produce significant amounts of methane, a powerful greenhouse gas which helps trap the sun's energy in the atmosphere.

The findings, reported in the journal Nature, have been described as "startling", and may force a rethink of the role played by forests in holding back the pace of global warming.




Check out out the rest of the story online from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/science/nature/4604332.stm

Published: 2006/01/11 23:04:29 GMT

© BBC MMVI
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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2006, 01:55:17 AM »

But, in all fairness, I'm a person who is not bothered by the destruction of the enviroment because I believe it allows us to slowly decrease our dependence on our enviroment while increasing our dependence on Technology...necessity is the mother of invention...thus helping us out in the long run.

IMHO, the above quote rankles what I believe is the general Orthodox sensitivity to our commission to be wise stewards of our environment, the environment God has given us.  I would love to see what the Fathers have to say about this, since I'm really not keen on Patrisitic views of the subject of environmental stewardship.  All I know from my own sensitivity is that God has called us to be wise stewards of the resources He has given us in nature, and I think that our growing dependence on technology often blinds us to these stewardship responsibilities.  I see modern technology in many ways replacing what God has given us to make us dependent on Him and His providence with what we have created ourselves for our own comfort.  AISI, our growing dependence on technology is part of the much bigger process of our general departure from following God's commandments and living in communion with Him.

Plants revealed as methane source

By Tim Hirsch
BBC News environment correspondent  

Yes, and cattle are also known to be a great source of methane gas.  (That's not just a bunch of BS, either.)  Makes you kinda wanna rethink dairy farming.
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2006, 02:28:31 PM »

I think that such an absolute sounding statement is a bit sensationalistic, considering that there is indeed a debate, and it will continue into the forseeable future. What you are saying might be true, but you are doing a disservice to your cause by trying to sound so self-assured; it just makes me think of all the wacky claims from the 70's about running out of fossil fuels, an impending ice age, etc. Tone it down a bit, you have no need to match Mr. Limbaugh's rhetorical flair! Smiley

I think America is just about the only country on earth where vast amounts of even the 'educated' population still question whether or not global warming is happening. Last year I went to Iceland saw a glacier which had shrunk so enorously over the last I think 10 years or so. The tour guide built his house right next to the glacier at that time and now it was over a 100 metres away, it had just been getting smaller and smaller.
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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2006, 02:59:59 PM »

I think America is just about the only country on earth where vast amounts of even the 'educated' population still question whether or not global warming is happening. Last year I went to Iceland saw a glacier which had shrunk so enorously over the last I think 10 years or so. The tour guide built his house right next to the glacier at that time and now it was over a 100 metres away, it had just been getting smaller and smaller.

It seems to me that there isn't so much debate about the fact that global warming is occurring--I've heard even Rush Limbaugh agree with this observation at times--as there is about the assertion that man is causing global warming.
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« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2006, 04:21:32 PM »

I still get, for some unknown reason, Jerry Falwell's opinion emails.  He has actually stood against groupings of evangelicals on the global warming issue-so they aren't all together either.  I kind of like to see them spar back and forth, because the rest of us know something is up. The hurricane season changes are a big eye opener, the east coast (and of course the gulf coast last year) are being hit harder than ever before. What I don't' like is all the greenpeace types, and I think they have done a disservice to people here in the US.  They really make it difficult to take them seriously, so everyone thinks of people like that as "ecofreaks"
So those of us that are trying to be better stewards just keep to ourselves so not to be aligned with the nuts that would save a seal and kill off human babies.  (personal pet peeve I shall not expand on)
I was really surprised at the Orthodox view of being good stewards and was quite refreshed when I learned of it.  Now to get slow moving rural areas to make it easier to do something as simple as recycle, is another matter.
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« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2006, 04:49:22 PM »

calligraphqueen,
I think many of the evangelical Christian types, being too brainwashed into the Republican-moneymaking-free market economy-divine right mentallity use the "being stewards" (subdue the earth) as an excuse to exploit the planet.  Rather perverse I think.  As to Global Warming, there is evidence that we've been coming back from a small Ice Age for that last 150 years anyways, so it's hard to tell the effect that human factors play.  It could be miniscule or rather large.
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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2006, 06:49:58 AM »

Just read a book by a Finnish author Pirkko Lindberg called "SOS Tuvalu". She visited that pasific ocean island state which with other coral reef based islands is in great danger to disapear from the map - because of the rising sea level as one result of the global warming...
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2006, 09:13:57 AM »

It is also interesting to note that the United States has done more to curb the use of aerosols hence the deafening silence from the ozone layer proponents.  Automobile emmision efficiencies have gone up which has resulted in cleaner city environs.  Scrubbers on petrochemical and refineries have reduced smog and pollutants. Recycling by the average family has reduced greatly the need for additonal energy to produce same products.  We are doing our parts for a cleaner environment but we also have new emerging economies such as China.  Will they also want to follow the lead to a cleaner environment and they represent approximately 1/4th of the worlds population.  It will not be so easy to convince the Chinese government if she chooses to ignore modern methods of cleaning up the environment as it was the U.S.  

But the earth continually goes through cycles and ice ages are part of it.  Does one really think that we can control the level of sea water?   The CO2 levels,  which has been studied now for over 40 years, gets to a point where it levels off no matter how much is produced by us.  There is a point of dimishing returns with regard to CO2 emmisions.  I think we give ourselves more credit than we deserve.  The earth will do what it wants to do regardless of how we feel or do about it.
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« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2006, 05:06:50 AM »

ÂÂ

But the earth continually goes through cycles and ice ages are part of it.  Does one really think that we can control the level of sea water?   ÃƒÆ’‚ The earth will do what it wants to do regardless of how we feel or do about it.

That´s true ofcourse - we can do only our part. The nature surely will do what it wants...
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« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2006, 09:33:42 AM »

That´s true ofcourse - we can do only our part. The nature surely will do what it wants...

I think we in the U.S. have made a good start and I know it will continue.  My concern is the upsurge in the economies of China, India, Southeast Asia, not to deny them, and ignoring what we already know about the new technologies and habits we in the west  have now gotten used to. It would be to their benefit to incorporate these eco systems into their newly forming industrial revolutions.  Lets hope they do.
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2006, 03:36:48 PM »

That some global warming is occuring is a fact.

That the current global temperature is still a little cooler than what we can determine is the average for this globe is also a fact.

That the Sun's output is on a cyclical upswing is also a fact.

What is NOT a fact is that human CO2 production is responsible. See www.junkscience.com for more info.

I'm glad that neither President's Clinton nor Bush have presented the Kyoto Protocols to the US Senate for ratification.
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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2006, 03:17:57 PM »

I'm glad that neither President's Clinton nor Bush have presented the Kyoto Protocols to the US Senate for ratification.

 Huh  Why?  Huh  Because it suits your political POV and you haven't thought about what it might do to actually help the environment, even without the global warming part of the issue?  (No one can argue that burning coal is a good thing for air quality!)
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2006, 03:26:13 PM »

PetertheAleut has already made some good comments on this quote, and I thought I should add mine....

But, in all fairness, I'm a person who is not bothered by the destruction of the environment because I believe it allows us to slowly decrease our dependence on our environment while increasing our dependence on Technology...necessity is the mother of invention...thus helping us out in the long run.

Well, this POV is not shared by at least one of your professors, Fr John Chryssavgis, nor by the patristic tradition in general.  I think your technical mind blinds you to the fact that we are part of the natural world ourselves.  We need it to survive and to be healthy.  This kind of "boxing off" of humans into one area and the natural world into another is very Western, because the West loves to separate and categorize everything, and this is the inheritance of the heresy of scholasticism.  In essence, I think you are espsousing a very dangerous, proud, and erroneous vision here.
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« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2006, 09:57:46 AM »

Huh  Why?  Huh  Because it suits your political POV and you haven't thought about what it might do to actually help the environment, even without the global warming part of the issue?
No, because I've examined the science behind the warming that we are seeing and realize that the Kyoto Protocols would do NOTHING to change it, with the exception of crippling the economies in the West.

For more info, see www.junkscience.com
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« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2006, 11:08:05 AM »

No, because I've examined the science behind the warming that we are seeing and realize that the Kyoto Protocols would do NOTHING to change it, with the exception of crippling the economies in the West.

For more info, see www.junkscience.com

If "examining the science"  consists chiefly in using this website as a source, you might want to check out some more balanced viewpoints.  Any site that SCREAMS about how DDT must be used for the good of human health should be taken with more than just a few grains of salt, even if other controls for malaria appear to be expensive at this time.  Roll Eyes

The "crippling the economies" argument is very out of date, IMHO, for a number of reasons.  First of all, our archaic means of measuring economic performance don't count environmental degradation as a real cost.  Well, guess what?  It is a real cost.  And environmental health is a real benefit.  Secondly, businesses today realise that innovation is what will create profits for them in the future.  These include "green" innovations.  It's true that there are very real and not inconsequential short term costs involved in changing our energy sources over to more environmentally friendly sources and systems.  But the long term benefits to society as a whole, ecosystems, and yes, businesses, are immeasurable. ÂÂ
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« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2006, 11:49:47 AM »

Global warning is cyclical i.e. it was warmer years ago,. They used to to grow grapes in Blighty!  Looking after the earth is good but not because of scaremongering at the UN.  The lies about DDT became very popular propaganda in the 60s   - I hope the warm earthers are not trying to do the same.  Another reason for the great leader to take over manage of this planet.
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2006, 02:02:36 PM »

Any site that SCREAMS about how DDT must be used for the good of human health should be taken with more than just a few grains of salt...
Turning our backs on the most effective and certain method of preventing 2 million deaths per year does not require a few grains of salt, only a little uncaring attitude towards 2 million dead human beings.

The DDT scare was caused by bad science and the same goes for the Kyoto Protocols. That Kyoto would have an negative impact on Western economies is a fact. Gasoline prices would quickly soar to over $5 per gallon, boosting the cost of everything, including food.

We just don't need it! Thank goodness no American President has even presented this to our Senate (who would prompty shred it anyway).
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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2006, 03:02:52 PM »

Turning our backs on the most effective and certain method of preventing 2 million deaths per year does not require a few grains of salt, only a little uncaring attitude towards 2 million dead human beings.

Yes.....it's very gratifying to see some interests in the West show such a concern for human life in Africa.   The funny thing is, I don't hear these people talking about funding to alleviate and stem the incredible devastation wrought by AIDS on the same continent, and that would help many times more than the 2 million you mention. 

Quote
The DDT scare was caused by bad science....

Where are you getting this stuff?  This is simply not true no matter how you slice it.  It is a fact that Peregrine Falcons were almost wiped out by DDT use in North America before it was widely banned for large applications.  Many other species were also terribly battered by DDT before its use was curtailed.  I know that I can be sarcastic and come across very strongly when I write, but I'm asking you to not be offended by my tone and to please check your facts.  Try to do a little research into the issue.  If you can't find sources that aren't influenced by special corporate interests (big business) or special environmental interests (what some here have referred to as "greenies"), than at least look at both sides of the coin carefully before making statements that don't hold up. 

Quote
.... and the same goes for the Kyoto Protocols. That Kyoto would have an negative impact on Western economies is a fact. Gasoline prices would quickly soar to over $5 per gallon, boosting the cost of everything, including food.

Frankly, when I read this I wonder if you have even read my last post.  I know that there will be short term impacts.  I think that the long term gains will be worth it for all concerned.  I don't think anyone can predict what the cost of gasoline or other fuels will be, given the volatile (pun intended) nature of the oil market.  So why you think you can make these confident assertions here is puzzling.  It suggests to me, again, that you have not looked at sources that differ in their opinions, but just at a few of the same idealogical ilk. 
  The Kyoto Protocols weren't spawned by bad science.  They are an estimate of what is possible versus what is probably needed.  Once again I think you are not considering enough sources. 


Quote
We just don't need it! Thank goodness no American President has even presented this to our Senate (who would prompty shred it anyway).

I don't want to get into an out-and-out American political discussion, so I won't comment directly on this.  I'm really saddened that people seem to view the environment as a "left VS right" issue.  It should transcend political ideology, because an Orthodox world view does not permit us to have a laissez-faire attitude about this beautiful world that God has given us.  Even conservative evangelical Christians seem to have beaten us to the punch on this one.  I don't think that this is something for us Orthodox to be proud of.
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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2006, 04:16:13 PM »

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Any site that SCREAMS about how DDT must be used for the good of human health should be taken with more than just a few grains of salt, even if other controls for malaria appear to be expensive at this time.

I remember reading (sorry I don't have a refrence) that most of the problems caused by DDT were because it was used in such large quantities, and if were were properly applied today it could be effective in preventing malaria deaths while not causing the horrible envioromental damage it did in the past.  Does anyone else remeber this coming from a reputable source? 
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« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2006, 04:23:21 PM »

global warming is a natural process further catalized by us humans. Eventually another ice age will occur and we will start from the beginning (If the human race continues to that point..)
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« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2006, 04:35:14 PM »

Yes.....it's very gratifying to see some interests in the West show such a concern for human life in Africa.  ÃƒÆ’‚ The funny thing is, I don't hear these people talking about funding to alleviate and stem the incredible devastation wrought by AIDS on the same continent, and that would help many times more than the 2 million you mention.
Last I heard, our current administration was willing to commit several billion dollars to it, but the transmission of AIDS ultimately is stopped by proper behavior and no amount of funding will produce that result.
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« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2006, 04:38:08 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8862.msg119916#msg119916 date=1147119373]
I remember reading (sorry I don't have a refrence) that most of the problems caused by DDT were because it was used in such large quantities, and if were were properly applied today it could be effective in preventing malaria deaths while not causing the horrible envioromental damage it did in the past.ÂÂ  Does anyone else remeber this coming from a reputable source?ÂÂ  
[/quote]The link I suggested, www.junkscience.com, has a large section devoted to that and also contains many links to other sites for verification.

Rachel Carson was a scam artist who used bad science to scare people and sell lots of books. The 2 million dead malaria victims per year are her legacy.  And people still name bridges and reservoirs in the US in her honor. Shameful.
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« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2006, 04:40:50 PM »

I know that there will be short term impacts.ÂÂ  I think that the long term gains will be worth it for all concerned.
There will be no long term gains from the Kyoto Protocols because they cannot address the normal climatic cycle of the Earth that is responsible for any recorded global warming.  They only address the anti-capitalist myth propagated by some mis-guided individuals.
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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2006, 04:47:10 PM »

Where are you getting this stuff?ÂÂ  This is simply not true no matter how you slice it.ÂÂ  It is a fact that Peregrine Falcons were almost wiped out by DDT use in North America before it was widely banned for large applications.
Actually, that is false, the true scientific reasons are listed below. See http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm#ref8

DDT was blamed for the decline in the peregrine falcon population.

The decline in the U.S. peregrine falcon population occurred long before the DDT years. [Hickey JJ. 1942. (Only 170 pairs of peregrines in eastern U.S. in 1940) Auk 59:176; Hickey JJ. 1971 Testimony at DDT hearings before EPA hearing examiner. (350 pre- DDT peregrines claimed in eastern U.S., with 28 of the females sterile); and Beebe FL. 1971. The Myth of the Vanishing Peregrine Falcon: A study in manipulation of public and official attitudes. Canadian Raptor Society Publication, 31 pages]

Peregrine falcons were deemed undesirable in the early 20th century. Dr. William Hornaday of the New York Zoological Society referred them as birds that "deserve death, but are so rare that we need not take them into account." [Hornaday, WT. 1913. Our Vanishing Wild Life. New York Zoological Society, p. 226]

Oologists amassed great collections of falcon eggs. [Peterson, RT. 1948. Birds Over American, Dodd Mead & Co., NY, pp 135-151; Rice, JN. 1969. In Peregrine Falcon Populations, Univ. Of Wisconsin Press, pp 155-164; Berger, DD. 1969. In Peregrine Falcon Populations, Univ. Of Wisconsin Press, pp 165-173]

The decline in falcons along the Hudson River was attributed to falconers, egg collectors, pigeon fanciers and disturbance by construction workers and others. [Herbert, RA and KG Herbert. 1969. In Peregrine Falcon Populations, Univ. Of Wisconsin Press, pp 133- 154. (Also in Auk 82: 62-94)]

The 1950's and 1960's saw continuing harassment trapping brooding birds in their nests, removing fat samples for analysis and operating time-lapse cameras beside the nests for extended periods of time), predation and habitat destruction. [Hazeltine, WE. 1972. Statement before Secretary of State's Advisory Committee on United Nations Conference on the Human Environment, March 16, 1972; Enderson, JH and DD Berger. 1968. (Chlorinated hydrocarbons in peregrines from Northern Canada). Condor 70:149-153; Enderson, JH.. 1972. (Time lapse photography in peregrine nests) Living Bird 11: 113- 128; Risebrough, RW. 1970. (Organochlorines in peregrines and merlins migrating through Wisconsin). Canadian Field-Naturalist 84:247-253]

Changes in climate (higher temperatures and decreasing precipitation) were blamed for the gradual disappearance of peregrines from the Rocky Mountains. [Nelson, MW. 1969. Peregrine Falcon Populations, pp 61-72]

Falconers were blamed for decimating western populations.[Herman, S. 1969. Peregrine Falcon Populations, University of Wisconsin Press]

During the 1960's, peregrines in northern Canada were "reproducing normally," even though they contained 30 times more DDT, DDD, and DDE than the midwestern peregrines that were allegedly extirpated by those chemicals. [Enderson, JH and DD Berger. 1968. (Chlorinated hydrocarbons in peregrines from Northern Canada) Condor 70:170-178]

There was no decline in peregrine falcon pairs in Canada and Alaska between 1950 and 1967 despite the presence of DDT and DDE. [Fyfe, RW. 1959. Peregrine Falcon Populations, pp 101-114; and Fyfe, RW. 1968. Auk 85: 383-384]

The peregrine with the very highest DDT residue (2,435 parts per million) was found feeding three healthy young. [Enderson, JH. 1968. (Pesticide residues in Alaska and Yukon Territory) Auk 85: 683]

Shooting, egg collecting, falconry and disruption of nesting birds along the Yukon River and Colville River were reported to be the cause of the decline in peregrine falcon population. [Beebe, FL. 1971. The Myth of the Vanishing Peregrine Falcon: A study in manipulation of public and official attitudes. Canadian Raptor Society Publication, 31 pages; and Beebe, FL. 1975. Brit Columbia Provincial Museum Occas. Paper No. 17, pages 126-144]

The decline in British peregrine falcons ended by 1966, though DDT was as abundant as ever. The Federal Advisory Committee on Pesticides concluded "There is no close correlation between the declines in populations of predatory birds, particularly the peregrine falcon and the sparrow hawk, and the use of DDT." [Wilson report. 1969. Review of Organochlorine pesticides in Britain. Report by the Advisory Committee on toxic chemicals. Department of Education and Science]

During 1940-1945, the British Air Ministry shot about 600 peregrines (half the pre-1939 level) to protect carrier pigeons.

Peregrine falcon and sparrow hawk egg shells thinned in Britain prior to the use of DDT. [Redcliff, DH. 1967. Nature 215: 208-210; Redcliff, DH. 1970 J Applied Biology 7:67; and Redcliff, DH. 1967. Nature 215: 208-210]
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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2006, 06:38:49 PM »

There will be no long term gains from the Kyoto Protocols because they cannot address the normal climatic cycle of the Earth that is responsible for any recorded global warming.  They only address the anti-capitalist myth propagated by some mis-guided individuals.

Thank you.  By effectively ignoring my arguments, making statements concerning "anti-captalist myths"  and continually resorting to one disreputable site (see my next post), you have shown that you do indeed have a political agenda.
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« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2006, 06:51:18 PM »

Actually, that is false, the true scientific reasons are listed below. See http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm#ref8

DDT was blamed for the decline in the peregrine falcon population.

The decline in the U.S. peregrine falcon population occurred long before the DDT years. [Hickey JJ. 1942. (Only 170 pairs of peregrines in eastern U.S. in 1940) Auk 59:176; Hickey JJ. 1971 Testimony at DDT hearings before EPA hearing examiner. (350 pre- DDT peregrines claimed in eastern U.S., with 28 of the females sterile); and Beebe FL. 1971. The Myth of the Vanishing Peregrine Falcon: A study in manipulation of public and official attitudes. Canadian Raptor Society Publication, 31 pages]

Peregrine falcons were deemed undesirable in the early 20th century. Dr. William Hornaday of the New York Zoological Society referred them as birds that "deserve death, but are so rare that we need not take them into account." [Hornaday, WT. 1913. Our Vanishing Wild Life. New York Zoological Society, p. 226]

Oologists amassed great collections of falcon eggs. [Peterson, RT. 1948. Birds Over American, Dodd Mead & Co., NY, pp 135-151; Rice, JN. 1969. In Peregrine Falcon Populations, Univ. Of Wisconsin Press, pp 155-164; Berger, DD. 1969. In Peregrine Falcon Populations, Univ. Of Wisconsin Press, pp 165-173]

The decline in falcons along the Hudson River was attributed to falconers, egg collectors, pigeon fanciers and disturbance by construction workers and others. [Herbert, RA and KG Herbert. 1969. In Peregrine Falcon Populations, Univ. Of Wisconsin Press, pp 133- 154. (Also in Auk 82: 62-94)]

The 1950's and 1960's saw continuing harassment trapping brooding birds in their nests, removing fat samples for analysis and operating time-lapse cameras beside the nests for extended periods of time), predation and habitat destruction. [Hazeltine, WE. 1972. Statement before Secretary of State's Advisory Committee on United Nations Conference on the Human Environment, March 16, 1972; Enderson, JH and DD Berger. 1968. (Chlorinated hydrocarbons in peregrines from Northern Canada). Condor 70:149-153; Enderson, JH.. 1972. (Time lapse photography in peregrine nests) Living Bird 11: 113- 128; Risebrough, RW. 1970. (Organochlorines in peregrines and merlins migrating through Wisconsin). Canadian Field-Naturalist 84:247-253]

Changes in climate (higher temperatures and decreasing precipitation) were blamed for the gradual disappearance of peregrines from the Rocky Mountains. [Nelson, MW. 1969. Peregrine Falcon Populations, pp 61-72]

Falconers were blamed for decimating western populations.[Herman, S. 1969. Peregrine Falcon Populations, University of Wisconsin Press]

During the 1960's, peregrines in northern Canada were "reproducing normally," even though they contained 30 times more DDT, DDD, and DDE than the midwestern peregrines that were allegedly extirpated by those chemicals. [Enderson, JH and DD Berger. 1968. (Chlorinated hydrocarbons in peregrines from Northern Canada) Condor 70:170-178]

There was no decline in peregrine falcon pairs in Canada and Alaska between 1950 and 1967 despite the presence of DDT and DDE. [Fyfe, RW. 1959. Peregrine Falcon Populations, pp 101-114; and Fyfe, RW. 1968. Auk 85: 383-384]

The peregrine with the very highest DDT residue (2,435 parts per million) was found feeding three healthy young. [Enderson, JH. 1968. (Pesticide residues in Alaska and Yukon Territory) Auk 85: 683]

Shooting, egg collecting, falconry and disruption of nesting birds along the Yukon River and Colville River were reported to be the cause of the decline in peregrine falcon population. [Beebe, FL. 1971. The Myth of the Vanishing Peregrine Falcon: A study in manipulation of public and official attitudes. Canadian Raptor Society Publication, 31 pages; and Beebe, FL. 1975. Brit Columbia Provincial Museum Occas. Paper No. 17, pages 126-144]

The decline in British peregrine falcons ended by 1966, though DDT was as abundant as ever. The Federal Advisory Committee on Pesticides concluded "There is no close correlation between the declines in populations of predatory birds, particularly the peregrine falcon and the sparrow hawk, and the use of DDT." [Wilson report. 1969. Review of Organochlorine pesticides in Britain. Report by the Advisory Committee on toxic chemicals. Department of Education and Science]

During 1940-1945, the British Air Ministry shot about 600 peregrines (half the pre-1939 level) to protect carrier pigeons.

Peregrine falcon and sparrow hawk egg shells thinned in Britain prior to the use of DDT. [Redcliff, DH. 1967. Nature 215: 208-210; Redcliff, DH. 1970 J Applied Biology 7:67; and Redcliff, DH. 1967. Nature 215: 208-210]

This is ALL from the same site.  A quick Google inputting the words "peregrine falcons ddt" will effectively debunk the claims made here, which,though sometimes truthful, don't account for the major decline in falcon populations worldwide.  Sometimes, the arguments appear to be false to the point of deliberately fabricating evidence.  Try googling "canadian raptor society" and see what you get.  I didn't get anything.   I think I will believe univeristies like Oxford, the Univeristy of Wisconsin, the many other univeristies found under the "falcon ddt" google, the numerous government agencies listed as well as reputable NGO's rather than a "science" site which is obviously underwritten by some American pesticide concerns.
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« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2006, 07:39:18 PM »

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=8862.msg119916#msg119916 date=1147119373]
I remember reading (sorry I don't have a refrence) that most of the problems caused by DDT were because it was used in such large quantities, and if were were properly applied today it could be effective in preventing malaria deaths while not causing the horrible envioromental damage it did in the past.  Does anyone else remeber this coming from a reputable source? 
[/quote]

This might be true, to some degree.  Damage coulld be mitigated.  But then again, if you went to the trouble of searching out mosquito breeding grounds to spray them, you might as well use agents that kill larval mosquitos while seemingly not harming anything else.  (These would be larvicides like Bth or a variant such as  Bti.)   Spraying DDT twice a year around the house as one rather alarming newspaper editorial suggested would probabaly work in that environment.  But really, you are playing with fire here, especially when it comes to childrens' health!  I'm not sure if the cure is worse or better than the disease, in this case.   It's really using people as guinea pigs to find out how much DDT exposure they can tolerate over the long term.  Also, how does this deal with the mosquito problem outdoors?

  Here are a couple of interesting sites that deal with mosquito control in North America.

http://www.mosquito.org/default.aspx

http://winnipeg.ca/cms/bugline/default.stm



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« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2006, 08:03:56 PM »

Rachel Carson was a scam artist who used bad science to scare people and sell lots of books. The 2 million dead malaria victims per year are her legacy.  And people still name bridges and reservoirs in the US in her honor. Shameful.

I would say that revisionist attempts to re-write history are the shameful thing.
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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2006, 10:21:19 AM »

This is ALL from the same site.
But the references are from many sources that can be verified independently.
ÂÂ
A quick Google inputting the words "peregrine falcons ddt" will effectively debunk the claims made here...
Hardly a scientific refutation there, all that proves is that many people have bought into the falsehood. The science is clear on this.

Rachel Carson was a self-serving charlatan whose legacy kills 2 million malaria victims every year.
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« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2006, 10:38:26 AM »

Yes that's it - Rachel Carson, an ignorant woman who stirred up the media to support her greeny cause.  BTW there have been 6 ice ages before Model T!
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« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2006, 10:52:16 AM »

But the references are from many sources that can be verified independently.
 Hardly a scientific refutation there, all that proves is that many people have bought into the falsehood. The science is clear on this.

Rachel Carson was a self-serving charlatan whose legacy kills 2 million malaria victims every year.


So which pesticide company do you work for?  Personally, I am an ecosystems management technician who has worked in the private and public sectors in such a capacity, as well as in the capacity of a forestry technician, a resource management technician  and an interpretive naturalist.   My training and experience tell me that the "science" you are so sure of is either bogus or partial truth (gee...kind of like heresy in that way), depending on the citation.  ÃƒÆ’‚ What is "clear" is that you are no scientist.
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« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2006, 02:14:35 PM »

So which pesticide company do you work for?
I don't, I'm a data analyst and statistician.
What is "clear" is that you are no scientist.
And you are as wrong about that as you are about the modern myth of "global warming."

I wonder how many Africans needlessly died of malaria that could have been prevented by using DDT during this exchange?
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2006, 02:46:03 PM »

I'm a data analyst and statistician

Ditto...sorta....
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2006, 04:01:56 PM »

An excellent article on Global Warming without the psuedo-science bluster.
Quote
"Ever since the debate broke out over climate change, the world’s attention has been riveted on computer-driven horror stories and the positively silly idea of establishing global-weather control by actively managing the atmosphere’s greenhouse-gas emissions. This focus has gathered up a lethal coalition of people with diverse motivations for promoting it. I call it a lethal coalition because, for nearly 20 years, this coalition has killed off any attempt to look at climate change through a rational lens, and to look at climate policy in a pragmatic way."
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« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2013, 04:22:56 PM »

It’s official: 2012 was the warmest year on record in the lower 48 states, as the country experienced blistering spring and summer heat, tinderbox fire weather conditions amid a widespread drought, and one of the worst storms to ever strike the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast.

According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), 2012 had an average temperature of 55.3°F, which eclipsed 1998, the previous record holder, by 1°F. That was just off Climate Central’s calculation in mid-December, which projected an expected value of 55.34°F, based on historical data.
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« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2013, 04:28:12 PM »

YAWN....
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« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2013, 05:12:58 PM »

It’s official: 2012 was the warmest year on record in the lower 48 states, as the country experienced blistering spring and summer heat, tinderbox fire weather conditions amid a widespread drought, and one of the worst storms to ever strike the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast.

According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), 2012 had an average temperature of 55.3°F, which eclipsed 1998, the previous record holder, by 1°F. That was just off Climate Central’s calculation in mid-December, which projected an expected value of 55.34°F, based on historical data.
Unfortunately for us, this just means more rain.  Sad
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« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2013, 05:33:50 PM »

It’s official: 2012 was the warmest year on record in the lower 48 states, as the country experienced blistering spring and summer heat, tinderbox fire weather conditions amid a widespread drought, and one of the worst storms to ever strike the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast.

According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), 2012 had an average temperature of 55.3°F, which eclipsed 1998, the previous record holder, by 1°F. That was just off Climate Central’s calculation in mid-December, which projected an expected value of 55.34°F, based on historical data.
Unfortunately for us, this just means more rain.  Sad

I would not fret just yet.if one reads this piece carefully it states a record high since 1998;s record. This means that 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011 were all LOWER than the previous high. I am not impressed; no need to hoard umbrellas.  Wink
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« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2013, 05:39:29 PM »

It’s official: 2012 was the warmest year on record in the lower 48 states, as the country experienced blistering spring and summer heat, tinderbox fire weather conditions amid a widespread drought, and one of the worst storms to ever strike the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast.

According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), 2012 had an average temperature of 55.3°F, which eclipsed 1998, the previous record holder, by 1°F. That was just off Climate Central’s calculation in mid-December, which projected an expected value of 55.34°F, based on historical data.
Unfortunately for us, this just means more rain.  Sad

I would not fret just yet.if one reads this piece carefully it states a record high since 1998;s record. This means that 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011 were all LOWER than the previous high. I am not impressed; no need to hoard umbrellas.  Wink
Do you notice a slight upward trend?  Shocked

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« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2013, 06:07:16 PM »

It’s official: 2012 was the warmest year on record in the lower 48 states, as the country experienced blistering spring and summer heat, tinderbox fire weather conditions amid a widespread drought, and one of the worst storms to ever strike the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast.

According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), 2012 had an average temperature of 55.3°F, which eclipsed 1998, the previous record holder, by 1°F. That was just off Climate Central’s calculation in mid-December, which projected an expected value of 55.34°F, based on historical data.
Unfortunately for us, this just means more rain.  Sad

I would not fret just yet.if one reads this piece carefully it states a record high since 1998;s record. This means that 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011 were all LOWER than the previous high. I am not impressed; no need to hoard umbrellas.  Wink
Believe me, when you live were I live, there's need.

It's the same in all of Scandinavia.
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« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2013, 10:20:34 PM »

It’s official: 2012 was the warmest year on record in the lower 48 states, as the country experienced blistering spring and summer heat, tinderbox fire weather conditions amid a widespread drought, and one of the worst storms to ever strike the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast.

According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), 2012 had an average temperature of 55.3°F, which eclipsed 1998, the previous record holder, by 1°F. That was just off Climate Central’s calculation in mid-December, which projected an expected value of 55.34°F, based on historical data.
Unfortunately for us, this just means more rain.  Sad

I would not fret just yet.if one reads this piece carefully it states a record high since 1998;s record. This means that 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011 were all LOWER than the previous high. I am not impressed; no need to hoard umbrellas.  Wink
Do you notice a slight upward trend?  Shocked



When that graph goes further back, which it originally did as I recall and before NASA removed the earlier data to skew the results, I might admit a trend, probably solar caused...and hope for more. I like warm. Nothing we can really do about it except use it to feed hysteria and soften the chickens little up for more baloney taxes.
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« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2013, 11:00:42 PM »

BTW, on what basis do you make a GLOBAL claim based on a data set from the "Contiguous U.S.", anyway? Hysterics run amok, wild leaps of "logic"...
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« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2013, 04:30:46 AM »

BTW, on what basis do you make a GLOBAL claim based on a data set from the "Contiguous U.S.", anyway? Hysterics run amok, wild leaps of "logic"...

There might be just a few Australians who would say so .... with record temperatures over the past ten days, 2012 listed as the hottest on record in that country, fires raging in four states and one territory (and Australian states are much larger than American states) as we speak ...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/topic/fires

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« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2013, 06:11:45 AM »

2012 was as cold and rainy as always in the Netherlands, perhaps even more so than in previous years.
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« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2013, 08:55:38 AM »

2012 was as cold and rainy as always in the Netherlands, perhaps even more so than in previous years.

It was the wettest year since records began in England and the second wettest for the UK as a whole - and it certainly wasn't warm,. I'd also note that our Met Office has now revised down their previous predictions for half a degree centigrade of warming by 2017. Apparently, if this new revision is correct, there will have been no appreciable warming for the last 20 years. I don't doubt that climate is changing, I do doubt that those most stridently blowing the 'global warming' trumpets actually know much more than that. It certainly seems that both their predictions of future trends and explanations of cause are far too fragile to warrant the confidence with which they prognosticate.

James
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« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2013, 12:09:29 PM »

Quote
Do you notice a slight upward trend?
So? China had the coldest on record. Whats your point?

If it was so conclusive, why fake data?

PP
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« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2013, 05:57:48 PM »

Do you notice a slight upward trend?  Shocked



Show us the data for the years 800 through 1890 please so we can see how it did this before.
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« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2013, 06:22:02 PM »

I'm not all that worried about global warming. I don't disbelieve it's happening. I also don't disbelieve that, according to volcanologists, there are several immense volcanoes ready to blow, all of which have the potential to create global cooling. Maybe it'll all get balanced out.
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« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2013, 06:35:35 PM »

I'm not all that worried about global warming. I don't disbelieve it's happening. I also don't disbelieve that, according to volcanologists, there are several immense volcanoes ready to blow, all of which have the potential to create global cooling. Maybe it'll all get balanced out.

Hurry, if you cannot explain how humans have caused the volcanoes to explode you will be sent to Siber...Alaska on charges of Thoughcrimes.
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« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2013, 07:15:53 PM »

I'm not all that worried about global warming. I don't disbelieve it's happening. I also don't disbelieve that, according to volcanologists, there are several immense volcanoes ready to blow, all of which have the potential to create global cooling. Maybe it'll all get balanced out.

Hurry, if you cannot explain how humans have caused the volcanoes to explode you will be sent to Siber...Alaska on charges of Thoughcrimes.

Great! Snow and Orthodoxy!
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