Author Topic: A woman as ponomary?!?  (Read 2800 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Krysostomos

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 72
  • very eastern minded ...
A woman as ponomary?!?
« on: April 20, 2006, 09:48:51 AM »
Girls/ women can nowadays serve as altar servers in the patriarchate of Rome - if the local bishop agrees.
How about in the orthodox world: is it possible for a girl/ woman serve as a ponomary - except in a nun convent?!?
"You may say I am a dreamer. But I am not the only one." John Lennon

Offline pensateomnia

  • Bibliophylax
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,360
  • metron ariston
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2006, 10:25:49 AM »
The only place I have seen female altar-servers has been in convents. The local Bishop and the abbess select one or two or sometimes three nuns for the task.
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline Elisha

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,598
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2006, 11:00:40 AM »
Girls/ women can nowadays serve as altar servers in the patriarchate of Rome - if the local bishop agrees.
How about in the orthodox world: is it possible for a girl/ woman serve as a ponomary - except in a nun convent?!?

I think that if you search old threads enough you can dig a discussion from a year or two ago about an (possibly just alleged) "incident" where it happened...but which was definitely not condoned.  You can read the hubub in that old thread whereever it may be.

Offline BoredMeeting

  • Loving the Life of a Council Member
  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 722
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2006, 01:22:56 PM »
The short answer is No, not outside of a convent.

Offline FrChris

  • The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
  • Site Supporter
  • Taxiarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,252
  • Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2006, 02:43:50 PM »
I've also only heard of women serving in this way in their own convent.

This is completely anecdotal but....a few years ago on a Byzantine Catholic board there was a question regarding whether girls could serve as acolytes. A priest answered the question in the negative, and one of his reasons was:

"what would our Orthodox brothers say if we started to do so?"
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline Timos

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 856
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2006, 02:58:22 PM »
Also completely anecdotal, I've heard of women helping at liturgy but NOT IN the altar, just from right outside the iconostasis. Everything would be set up in the side room of the altar or right outside the iconostasi, so when the priest needs the censer, she'd give it to him from outside the iconostasis and would hold the candle for the gospel.

Wasn't this the case often in war-time Greece and other orthodox nations when many men were away at the fronts?

Offline BasilCan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 204
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2006, 08:51:06 PM »
Supposedly girls can be found in the altar in Beirut in the Antiochian Cathedral. Melkites also occassionally use them (like all Catholics)

Basil

Offline bergschlawiner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
  • Sarisan
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2006, 01:10:37 PM »
I don't know what the term "ponimary" means - maybe "pani" - but while stationed in Germany attending what we call ROCOR churches now in refugee camps and cities I did see older women, some dressed like nuns (not in complete habits) who acted as servers but did not enter the doors of the iconostas and took the candles, censor, etc. from the priest at the doors.  These churches had no children/boys around to serve.

Offline Kaminetz

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2006, 01:11:59 AM »
In Serbia, in the Russian Cossack institutes (all female boarding schools) there was a church where the girls would help with the service, i.e. hold candles, etc. (boys would be all in the Cadet Corps). I do not believe they entered the altar. These are the early days of ROCOR.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 01:12:44 AM by Kaminetz »

Offline BasilCan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 204
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2006, 11:13:03 PM »
Remember liturgically...

Byzantine (Greek, Antiochian) means "whatever - let's be flexible"

Slavic (Russian, Serbian) menas "no way - follow the rules"

Compare a ROCOR parish and a Greek parish and you will see what I mean.

Basil

Offline Kaminetz

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2006, 10:53:47 AM »
Compare a ROCOR parish and a Greek parish and you will see what I mean.

Being a ROCOR person I agree. Too many priests in ROCOR are not flexible in certain situations where flexibility is necessary. It's the convert clergy that tend to be the strictest, in my view.

Offline Psalti Boy

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 842
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2006, 10:37:20 PM »
What about women serving as Chanters?  I know of at least two in an Antiochian parish.

Offline pensateomnia

  • Bibliophylax
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,360
  • metron ariston
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2006, 11:22:56 PM »
What about women serving as Chanters?  I know of at least two in an Antiochian parish.

There are women who serve as chanters in many jurisdictions in the U.S., including the GOA, OCA, Antiochian, MP Russians and, even, (in some places) ROCOR.

If one considers singing in a choir the equivalent of being a chanter, then I would say there probably isn't an Orthodox Church in existence that doesn't have some women serving as chanters.
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline Psalti Boy

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 842
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2006, 11:36:32 PM »
There are women who serve as chanters in many jurisdictions in the U.S., including the GOA, OCA, Antiochian, MP Russians and, even, (in some places) ROCOR.

If one considers singing in a choir the equivalent of being a chanter, then I would say there probably isn't an Orthodox Church in existence that doesn't have some women serving as chanters.

That's what I thought. 

Offline Starlight

  • Site Supporter
  • OC.net guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,537
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2006, 12:37:46 AM »
Also completely anecdotal, I've heard of women helping at liturgy but NOT IN the altar, just from right outside the iconostasis. Everything would be set up in the side room of the altar or right outside the iconostasi, so when the priest needs the censer, she'd give it to him from outside the iconostasis and would hold the candle for the gospel.

Wasn't this the case often in war-time Greece and other orthodox nations when many men were away at the fronts?
Yes. Sometimes it was happening in Ukraine. But similarly, only some nuns, who have a special blessing / permission in the convents, are entering an altar there. Typically, these nuns already have a long monastic tenure prior to such blessing.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,026
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2006, 01:06:13 AM »
Remember liturgically...

Byzantine (Greek, Antiochian) means "whatever - let's be flexible"

Slavic (Russian, Serbian) menas "no way - follow the rules"

Compare a ROCOR parish and a Greek parish and you will see what I mean.

Basil

HAH! You're welcomed to visit my Greek parish and my local ROCOR one...and you'll see you can be very wrong.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline pensateomnia

  • Bibliophylax
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,360
  • metron ariston
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2006, 03:24:06 PM »
[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=8859.msg124723#msg124723 date=1150520773]
HAH! You're welcomed to visit my Greek parish and my local ROCOR one...and you'll see you can be very wrong.
[/quote]

Second that in a couple of towns I have lived in. In reality, it all depends on the priest. Having been at a Greek seminary for three years now, I can tell you that there are some Greek priests who pay scrupulous attention to the Typikon of the Great Church of Christ, while there are others whose incompetence is generally the source of their laxity.
But for I am a man not textueel I wol noght telle of textes neuer a deel. (Chaucer, The Manciple's Tale, 1.131)

Offline Dismus

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 486
Re: A woman as ponomary?!?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2006, 01:43:58 PM »
Since the use of altar girls in the RCC was mentioned here, I thought i would put in my 2 cents on the whole altar girl thing.
I do not like it.
The numbers of willing altar boys have since dropped drastically as boys feel like intruders on their new group. It is sad and some have noticed in the Archdiocies where this is not allowed , 2 I think, the numbers of altar boys that go on to the seminary are trifold.
Ie: girls at the altar= no priests at the altar
Problematic consequences of this innovation that has been abused.
It was originally justifyed to fill a void, now it is killing the priesthood.