Author Topic: Father Bless vs. Master Bless  (Read 2758 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Elisha

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,632
Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« on: April 17, 2006, 05:33:33 PM »
...or Bless Master....and I'm talking about when there is a just a priest(s) and no bishop.  When are either supposed to be used for a priest?  As far as the faithful, I've never heard them say "Master Bless" for a priest....and I heard it at this one (AOA) parish and it irked me - seemed rather idolizing of the faithful/pretentiousness on the priest for doing it.  Any of you seminarians please (even GiC)?  Thanks.

Offline Thomas

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,886
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2006, 10:28:19 PM »
I think the Text used for the Liturgy (Liturgicon) in the AOA uses that term and the parish apparrently uses it. It may a translation issue. In my parish that text has a line drawn through it an the words "Father Bless" shows up in some of the Liturgicons behind the Iconsotasis.

In Christ,
Thomas
Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas

Offline arimethea

  • Getting too old for this
  • Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,968
  • Does anyone really care what you think?
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2006, 11:15:09 PM »
Master is always used in relationship between the Deacon and the Protos, which can be either a Bishop or a Priest. The faithful make the distinction between Father and Master in asking for the blessing.

There is one Bishop that I know that insist on using "Most Blessed Master" for himself since this is what the Patriarch of Moscow uses. For those familar with the Greek usage has anyone ever heard of a Patriarch being refered to in such a manner?  
Joseph

Offline Elisha

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,632
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2006, 12:03:47 AM »
Master is always used in relationship between the Deacon and the Protos, which can be either a Bishop or a Priest. The faithful make the distinction between Father and Master in asking for the blessing.

There is one Bishop that I know that insist on using "Most Blessed Master" for himself since this is what the Patriarch of Moscow uses. For those familar with the Greek usage has anyone ever heard of a Patriarch being refered to in such a manner?  

That's probably what I'm thinking.  The parish I mentioned is the ONLY parish (of any jurisdiction) where even the faithful were saying "Master Bless", no Bishop was present and the priest never made any effort to correct the faithful.  I've visited this parish several times and the faithful say "Master bless" everytime

I think I've also heard the Deacon say "Father Bless" before, but don't remember what part of the service it happened.  But at the start, it was always "Bless Master" (in that order).

Offline augustin717

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,754
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2006, 12:35:49 AM »
Back in my parish in Romania, we used to say :"Most reverend Father, bless!" , in the second person of (Preacucernice parinte, binecuvantati/blagosloviti"; but this (excessively) polite form of adress was rather a local tradition, which continued an older use, of the liturgical books printed in the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, because the new books say simply "Father, bless!".
As a paranthesis, we still use there liturgical books (Minei, Antologhion, "Te Deum", etc) printed during the long reign of the emperor Franz-Joseph, in which special prayers for the Imperial House of Habsburg are provided.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2006, 12:37:46 AM by augustin717 »

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,238
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2006, 01:37:18 AM »
Just to begin, I'd like to say that I find the use of the term Master liturgically to be distasteful.  But, since it is used by the Church, I will use it when appropriate.

From my experience: Everyone calls the Bishop Master, the deacons call the Priests Master, the people call the Priests Father.  There are Deacons who will say "Father," but normally this is because they're either a) reading off the books - and don't get me started on all the different liturgical errors/cuttings I find in the books, it just gets me steamed, or b) they don't like it, and so it becomes a "statement."

Now, I've also had a deacon (from Belgium) tell me that the only people who should call Deacons "Deacon" are their own bishops; the Laos and the Priests should call them Father.  I've heard things back and forth, but I normally trust this person.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,213
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2006, 03:20:07 AM »
There is one Bishop that I know that insist on using "Most Blessed Master" for himself since this is what the Patriarch of Moscow uses.

Yes, this is used by a few bishops and it should not be done.  This is because the term "Master" is used with reference to God, not to the person of the bishop himself.  Callling the bishop "Most Blessed Master" tends to shift the focus of attention from God to the bishop himself, since this is not a title that all bishops enjoy.  It's like the bishop is saying "See?  Look at me.  I'm not just a 'Master'.  I'm a 'Most Blessed Master.' "  When this is done in the context of the liturgy, it really obscures the meaning of what "Master" is supposed to be pointing towards, and makes it seem like a purely human title.  Not only this, but it also obscures the fact that as far as the Orthodox are concerned, all bishops are sacramentally equal.
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.

Offline bergschlawiner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 235
  • Sarisan
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2006, 11:56:01 AM »
Linguistics/semantics again! Stop and think that in many languages "master" and "mister" are the same words, for example "Herr" in German - "Herr Schmidt" or "Herr Gott."  Also Czech/Slovak/Polish "Pan" is "Mr" and "Lord."  Maybe linguistics are the work of the devil to confuse believers?  it sure seems to be confusing people here.

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,238
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2006, 01:16:00 PM »
It could be; in modern Greek, "Lord" and "mister" are the same - Κύριε.  And to think, when translating it is also used as the replacement for Adonai/YHWH in the Bible!  In the Greek, the word possesses both meanings (but, alas, it's not what we use in Greek when calling the bishop Master - Δέσποτα is the word, and from it come the English "despotic," "despotism," and "despot.")
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Donna Rose

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 937
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2006, 02:02:26 PM »
At my parish while I was living in NYC, we said "Master, Bless" because the official rector of the parish was Archbishop Peter, and so Father (who is an Igumen) would be representing him liturgically, I guess. Then when the parish (2nd Street Cathedral) became Met. Herman's 2nd Cathedral or however that works, we changed it to "Most Blessed Master Bless" because now Father is representing the Metropolitan...so, maybe at this AOA church the rector of the parish is a bishop (even though he isn't always present)?

Just my non-seminarian, choir-member 2 cents...

D
hmmmm...

Offline Fr. George

  • formerly "Cleveland"
  • Administrator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,238
  • May the Lord bless you and keep you always!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2006, 02:04:36 PM »
Who knows?  You're probably right!
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
Met. Meletios of Nikopolis & Preveza, from his ordination.

Offline Elisha

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,632
Re: Father Bless vs. Master Bless
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2006, 02:16:36 PM »
At my parish while I was living in NYC, we said "Master, Bless" because the official rector of the parish was Archbishop Peter, and so Father (who is an Igumen) would be representing him liturgically, I guess. Then when the parish (2nd Street Cathedral) became Met. Herman's 2nd Cathedral or however that works, we changed it to "Most Blessed Master Bless" because now Father is representing the Metropolitan...so, maybe at this AOA church the rector of the parish is a bishop (even though he isn't always present)?

Just my non-seminarian, choir-member 2 cents...

D


Hmmmm....maybe.  But I know this parish definitely is NOT the bishop's seat - just a parish he has visited more frequently than others.