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montalban
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« on: April 15, 2006, 02:40:01 AM »

I'm still trying to work out if I have a problem with this - hallal food.

Here in Australia we've got a company Cadbury's chocolates. On certain packages they have a small marker showing that the food is approved hallal. Now I don't think that eating hallal food will affect me (Acts 11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth). My problem with this is that this product is being advertised exclusively as hallal, even though it is also able to be considered "kosher". Thus it seems to me that Moslems have gone to the company and suggested that for a small fee for certification purposes that they will endorse this chocolate as 'hallal'. Further, this certification won't last indefinitely; even if the company is consistent in how they make their product. This seems to me like exploitation. And they're not the only food now being endorsed.

Thus my problem is if they want to declare it hallal, that's fine, but it should be a one-off (providing they don't change their processes). Further, if it's considered kosher too, it should be advertised that way to - why are they (seemingly) sucking up only to Moslems?
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2006, 07:15:19 AM »

Hi,

Hallal means "Mercy" in Arabic.

It is usually a reference for "meat" such as Hallal Cut Meats which means that the animal did not suffer before being "killed." I am not sure why they have it on chocolates?Huh? Maybe a person of Muslim religion could better answer this. "Kosher" means clean of pigs meat and anything touching pigs meat and or dairy. Actually my father worked on Kosher foods before and he explained the process to me.

So yes, the "Hallal" is most likely directed for the Australian people of the Muslim Faith.

I hope this helps you in some ways. I will check it out further and if I find anything I will post it here.

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Hadel
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2006, 07:16:15 PM »

Hi,

Hallal means "Mercy" in Arabic.

It is usually a reference for "meat" such as Hallal Cut Meats which means that the animal did not suffer before being "killed." I am not sure why they have it on chocolates?Huh? Maybe a person of Muslim religion could better answer this. "Kosher" means clean of pigs meat and anything touching pigs meat and or dairy. Actually my father worked on Kosher foods before and he explained the process to me.

So yes, the "Hallal" is most likely directed for the Australian people of the Muslim Faith.

I hope this helps you in some ways. I will check it out further and if I find anything I will post it here.

In Christ,
Hadel
That's one of the things confusing. Hallal is where they pray to their god Al-lah over the meat, so what this has to do with chocolate I don't know - other than to extort money. And if it's because some 'meat product' is used in the chocolate-making process then they only need to declare it ONCE.
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2006, 07:50:13 PM »

Halal (note spelling) does not mean "praying over the meat", it means the food product did not come from an animal considered unclean (such as a pig, or an animal in contact with a pig), and that the animal did not suffer to produce the food product.
A key ingredient in chocolate is milk. Only milk which comes from halal animals is halal. For the milk to remain halal, it must not be mixed with non-halal products. Muslims cannot eat most cheeses for example, because the rennet used may have come from an animal not killed in an halal way. Similarly, here in Australia, I have a friend who works in a well known flour mill. Once a year the machinery and entire plant is thoroughly cleaned of all traces of flour and wheat in order to mill kosher flour under the auspices of a committee of Rabbis. For the flour to be kosher, the wheat must not be mixed with any other grain. The flour produced is packaged  for sale with a certification of being kosher.
I'm not sure why you think "they only need to declare it once". Every Cadbury's chocolate bar carries the declaration that it "May contain traces of nuts". Why aren't you arguing that the manufacturers need only declare that once?
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« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2006, 04:02:20 AM »

Halal (note spelling) does not mean "praying over the meat", it means the food product did not come from an animal considered unclean (such as a pig, or an animal in contact with a pig), and that the animal did not suffer to produce the food product.
A key ingredient in chocolate is milk. Only milk which comes from halal animals is halal. For the milk to remain halal, it must not be mixed with non-halal products. Muslims cannot eat most cheeses for example, because the rennet used may have come from an animal not killed in an halal way. Similarly, here in Australia, I have a friend who works in a well known flour mill. Once a year the machinery and entire plant is thoroughly cleaned of all traces of flour and wheat in order to mill kosher flour under the auspices of a committee of Rabbis. For the flour to be kosher, the wheat must not be mixed with any other grain. The flour produced is packaged  for sale with a certification of being kosher.
I'm not sure why you think "they only need to declare it once". Every Cadbury's chocolate bar carries the declaration that it "May contain traces of nuts". Why aren't you arguing that the manufacturers need only declare that once?

Cadbury's offer the warning "May contain nuts" because their products "May contain nuts". It is a warning for some legal reason. Labelling foods fit for religious reasons is not for legal reasons, and that is, in fact why I have some slight issue with this.

If they don't use products that contravene hallal then why do they need to have it continually re-certified, for a fee? And I note again the product that is 'considered' kosher is not advertised as being kosher on the product, but on the web-site. Only the hallal product gets both web-site endorsement and product endorsement.

And it does involve praying over meat to make it acceptable, even if you don't want it to be.
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« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2006, 04:07:07 AM »

For George

It seems I have to re-state this.

One product is deemed fit for both Moslems and Jews. There's information on the net about this. Only the Moslems get an endorsement on the actual product.

They also seek to have this re-certified every six months or so. Regardless of whether Cadbury change their manufacturing means or not. And the Jews aren't continually going at the company for money.
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« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2006, 04:10:01 AM »

Halal (note spelling)
HALLAL MEAT
http://www.comores-online.com/mwezinet/religion/hallal.htm

They also spell it Halaal
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« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2006, 04:23:20 AM »

It seems I have to re-state this.
Roll Eyes <sigh>

One product is deemed fit for both Moslems and Jews. There's information on the net about this. Only the Moslems get an endorsement on the actual product.
Yes, and only Jews get a Kosher endorsement on the actual packages of flour produced by the Flour Mill Council of Victoria. Yet Kosher flour is also Halal, so why are the moslems not given an endorsement?

They also seek to have this re-certified every six months or so. Regardless of whether Cadbury change their manufacturing means or not.
The re-certification confirms there has been no change in the manufacturing process which renders it not halal.

And the Jews aren't continually going at the company for money.
You've grabbed one end of the stick here: "The muslims are continually after money"....despite the fact that I have previously told you in this thread that the same procedure is used by the Jewish Council of Australia on an annual basis to certify Kosher flour. Why is it you have no problem with the Jews doing this, yet have a problem the the moslems doing the same thing?

Smugness unwarrented
The correct spelling is "unwarranted". Wink
« Last Edit: April 16, 2006, 04:35:29 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2006, 05:31:48 AM »

Roll Eyes <sigh>
Indeed. Having to repeat things is rather boring.
Yes, and only Jews get a Kosher endorsement on the actual packages of flour produced by the Flour Mill Council of Victoria. Yet Kosher flour is also Halal, so why are the Moslems not given an endorsement?
Do the Jews continually ask for money to re-assess it? Yes, then it's bad too. How do you believe that two bad things are good? By the way, I can't find any "Jewish Council of Australia" anywhere. Do you have a link?
The re-certification confirms there has been no change in the manufacturing process which renders it not halal.
I understand that, otherwise they wouldn't re-affirm it as being hallal. However as there's no change in the process, and as the Jews aren't continually asking for money for it... oh never mind.
You've grabbed one end of the stick here: "The Muslims are continually after money"....despite the fact that I have previously told you in this thread that the same procedure is used by the Jewish Council of Australia on an annual basis to certify Kosher flour. Why is it you have no problem with the Jews doing this, yet have a problem the the (sic) moslems doing the same thing?
You assume that I don't. Being unaware of another example is not endoresement. I don't know where you learnt otherwise.
The correct spelling is "unwarranted".
Do you know what irony is?

So asides from you being bored by this, yet still posting where are we up to? One group extorting money for religious reasons. You cite another. Well done for exposing this too. How does this negate the hallal situation?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2006, 05:36:19 AM by montalban » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2006, 05:40:13 AM »

When I Google for "Jewish Council of Australia" I get two entries, one being a fascist site http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=129709.

Are you aware of any other links George? I'm just trying to check out your assertions.
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2006, 05:48:46 AM »

Similarly, here in Australia, I have a friend who works in a well known flour mill. Once a year the machinery and entire plant is thoroughly cleaned of all traces of flour and wheat in order to mill kosher flour under the auspices of a committee of Rabbis. For the flour to be kosher, the wheat must not be mixed with any other grain. The flour produced is packaged  for sale with a certification of being kosher.

You've grabbed one end of the stick here: "The Muslims are continually after money"....despite the fact that I have previously told you in this thread that the same procedure is used by the Jewish Council of Australia on an annual basis to certify Kosher flour. Why is it you have no problem with the Jews doing this, yet have a problem the the (sic) Moslems doing the same thing?
Actually there's a small change of emphasis here that I missed when I first read your posts. The first post you note that they once a year make flour that is dedicated kosher, apart from their regular flour producing - because on an odd occasion they mill special kosher flour. It is then, surprisingly given a kosher certification. I have no problem with Jews hiring a facility to use it to make flour for their own special religious needs, and in point of fact don't see how this equates with a 'regular' product line being deemed hallal, or kosher.

For the same reasons I have no problem whatsoever buying a kebab from my local shop, knowing that it is hallal, because it is hallal by virtue that it's from a Turkish shop - in which they practice their faith. That's different if I were, say as an example, to make a product for many years and a group Jewish, or Moslem, or others come to me and say that for a payment of money they'd certify my product hallal, kosher or whatever, when I've not changed my processes, and that they require me to pay them every now and then, even though I still don't change manufacturing processes
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2006, 07:19:22 AM »

Jewish Council of Australia
I'm not question that this organisation doesn't exist, but they're very hard to find.

Do you mean...?
Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council ÂÂ  
Lvl 1/ 22 Albert Rd South Melbourne 3205
(03) 9681 6660
who have a web-site is http://www.aijac.org.au/
Maybe they're a front for the "Jewish Council of Australia" ?

If so I don't know what they have to do with certifying foods as kosher.

I'm just trying to verify your claim; even though you've still yet to put forward how their alleged action outweighs/counter-acts or whatever the actions of those that seek hallal status of chocolate. Huh
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2006, 07:24:32 AM »

Montalban,
you're gonna have to decide whether you're going to pm me or use this thread to communicate with me. Please pick one and stick to it.
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2006, 07:29:54 AM »

Montalban,
you're gonna have to decide whether you're going to pm me or use this thread to communicate with me. Please pick one and stick to it.
Can't you do both? I'm not just on this one forum at this time either. Anyway, if you can't/don't want to, this will do fine.

Please let me know how this "Jewish Council of Australia's" actions negate my OP.
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2006, 07:44:39 AM »

I'm not sure why there is some issue here. Keeping a place kosher is obviously an inspection/supervision issue, so you hire what is essentially a consultant to ensure that (for instance) the workers don't take some odd shortcut or the incoming ingredients don't change unacceptably in order to increase one's market. Having something under hallal instead of kosher supervision is a bit odd but I would tend to suspect that either it's something that Jews don't care for or that there is some reason why it cannot be made kosher. Now as to whether or not you should buy, well of course you should be buying Hershey's. Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2006, 07:49:13 AM »

I'm not sure why there is some issue here. Keeping a place kosher is obviously an inspection/supervision issue, so you hire what is essentially a consultant to ensure that (for instance) the workers don't take some odd shortcut or the incoming ingredients don't change unacceptably in order to increase one's market. Having something under hallal instead of kosher supervision is a bit odd but I would tend to suspect that either it's something that Jews don't care for or that there is some reason why it cannot be made kosher. Now as to whether or not you should buy, well of course you should be buying Hershey's.
I don't think we have Hershey's here. We had Dr. Pepper for a few years but no one (except me, so it seems) bought any of it. (I NEVER met anyone EVER who also liked Dr. Pepper!)

I wrote to Cadburys and said that if the items are considered both Korsher AND Hallal they should show this on their product; if they're going to show one, they should show both.

How about an "Orthodox" certification, so that one knows if one can eat it for Lent Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2006, 08:08:26 AM »

I wonder if soft drinks can be 'hallal' or 'kosher'.
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2006, 08:12:50 AM »

No, I like blissful ignorance! This lent I discovered pesto mmmmmmm...(for pasta with pine nuts and spinach leaves mmm) anyway, when I went to buy another jar I thought I'd check the ingredients, just in case, and it had some cheese in it - d'oh!
Also, I like marshmallows even though they have pork gelatine in it: I reason it's not meat, therefore I think I can eat it. If you label stuff, I suppose I'll have to start 'going the whole hog' on lent?!
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2006, 08:56:17 AM »

No, I like blissful ignorance! This lent I discovered pesto mmmmmmm...(for pasta with pine nuts and spinach leaves mmm) anyway, when I went to buy another jar I thought I'd check the ingredients, just in case, and it had some cheese in it - d'oh!
Also, I like marshmallows even though they have pork gelatine in it: I reason it's not meat, therefore I think I can eat it. If you label stuff, I suppose I'll have to start 'going the whole hog' on lent?!
They put pork in marshmallows? You learn something new.
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2006, 09:06:46 AM »

It's not pork, it's something out of pork, I think that's what makes marshmallows squishy, but I don't know! I'm only an expert at eating them!  Tongue
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2006, 09:11:08 AM »

It's not pork, it's something out of pork, I think that's what makes marshmallows squishy, but I don't know! I'm only an expert at eating them!  Tongue
Gelatine is made from the hooves and trotters of animals......
So much for blissful ignorance Wink
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2006, 09:14:33 AM »

Gelatine is made from the hooves and trotters of animals......
So much for blissful ignorance Wink
Not like horses hooves? There's a vegetarian at work, and I couldn't understand (he never explained) why he wouldn't have some. And they were 'fat free', so I thought they were great.
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2006, 09:46:47 AM »

bleugh! Thanks for that! I'm never eating it again ...well, maybe in 5 minutes, but I'm going to be pretty sulky about it!! Cheesy
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« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2006, 09:50:30 AM »

Just try not to think about where the pig's trotters have been.....
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